Geoffrey was in town to record the Waking Up With Sam Harris Podcast, after the show we asked if he wanted to talk with us. He's best known for his books The Mating Mind (2001), Mating Intelligence (2008), Spent (2009), and Mate (2015). His website is www.primalpoly.com where you can find more info on him or if you wish to follow him on Twitter, his handle is @primalpoly We cover a wide range of topics including freedom of/from association, effective altruism and art, enjoy.

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00:00:03good afternoon my name is Jacob something on here with Ryan and today we are joined by very special guest his name is Jeffrey Miller he is actually a he is an evolutionary psychologist serving as an associate professor of psychology at University of New Mexico and it's known for his expertise and sexual selection in human evolution and for his views on the evolution through sexual selection of the human brain as sexual ornamentation he got into a little bit of that last night and he joins us here fresh off of the live recording session waking up with Sam Harris think it's great to be on the show so far I like it I've only seen downtown which is prosperous looking and the rest of the city seems very spread out and dumb
00:00:52I was reading before I came if Texas was its own economy would be the the 10th largest in the world and that was pretty impressive
00:01:01what you did go to the heights for for brunch we had a lovely diner diner diner Burger in the Heights so yeah I guess first thoughts of experience doing the podcast Last Night Live event about a thousand people in a big Auditorium that I think mostly houses punk rock bands and I've been a fan of Sam Harris for long-time particularly his book The moral landscape I really enjoyed and follow him on Twitter and eventually reach out and invited me to do one of these live podcast shows so I flew over from Albuquerque a couple days ago and
00:01:47but a great crowd great questions and covered a lot of ground from sexual selection and human evolution through artificial intelligence to polyamory and contemporary politics so I think it was a good show we too we talked for almost 3 hours it was Italy we not we can always go another that way so you had hooked Jacob and I are both free tickets thank you for that we got we got VIP almost front row Center seats very impressive you and the questions were supposed to go for about an hour and then we're going to go backstage and hang out with you guys and questions went for 2 hours and all the way to the point where the venue was down to the last minute and they were kicking us out and Sam had to had to kind of put a cap on the last question
00:02:47that that question is would come up and you'd really never know what is this going to be a question about Muslims or about Consciousness and Neuroscience or or or Trump or gun control what is so it was kind of fun to be on stage with that because you got to be nimble. It was going to be asking him a new question I I I have listened to his podcast but obviously I haven't caught every single episode I didn't know that he had already covered that topic he said like 6 months ago or so the question I asked him was about the crispr gene editing my question was directed more to you cuz it wasn't sure exactly how you felt about it but knowing that you have kind of a PhD more in for the biological sciences so and he had mentioned at one point I'm Gene editing so I didn't know that he had a strong opinions on it but he wouldn't even answer he just said ok Google
00:03:47why are you saying that point it was like a week at the very end of the line and there were like 5 minutes before it the security was like kicking us out so now yeah so I guess that that's so pretty good rabbit hole to start when it said you don't want to go and get on to that you mean like Gene editing or do you want your question about crispr Gene editing or what not we can talk about answered
00:04:17to my question last night do you want to elaborate on that at all or do you have any more thoughts
00:04:21yeah so I think
00:04:25the new genetic Technologies could be really amazing for him and so I could also be quite risky I think people generally in that to mean actually overestimate the risks I think on balance it'll be amazing when we can use crispr and other genetic Technologies to do serious regenerative medicine extend human life for people who want to live longer not everybody does but I'd like the option personally so I think on balance that would be great I think the by medical research applications will be great
00:04:57are the two main worries I have are this kind of Technology could also make it easier for Bad actors Road States terrorist groups to create pandemics rate highly infectious and it doesn't take any of the infrastructure of creating a nuke you know it's much easier we can't control viruses very easily and a lot of things can I mean even if we think I mean look at even a controlled fire can get out of get out of hand with 5 fire trucks standing around I mean if something as simple as a fire can get it at a hand look at you no like bacterial strains and viruses now I've had meningitis bacterial meningitis twice and that should have killed me it's just it's it's really terrifying and you know they're there are people in the world
00:05:57who are perfectly fine dying knowing that they can take out a handful of other people and are just imagine if they could take up you know a gun doesn't really scare me so much you know a vial of serum scares me and I would be happy to watch the world burn and just Unleashed things that that he even if they had it had blow back on their own people they be willing to accept the 90% death rate among their enemies beautiful 20% among themselves and that's the kind of thing that frightens me about
00:06:39that technology and then the second thing is you know applications in human reproduction I think also will be on balance very very positive you know there will be vanity babies but they're always happen and this is this is a point I love to make about sexual selection if we think Eugenics is new that's just delusional our ancestors have been choosing their sexual partners for good genes and good for half a billionaire half a billion years literally so we shouldn't pretend that old suddenly the ability to control the jeans get into our babies is a new thing we've done that a long time by controlling who we choose our sexual partners so that's not really knew what is new is we might make really dumb blunders about what specific traits we choose
00:07:39for example I really do worry about the Chinese stigma against mental illness means a lot of Chinese couple be selecting out any aliens any any genetic variance of Might produce like depression or bipolar or schizophrenia and by doing that they might should have unwittingly be selecting out some of the positive benefits of those conditions what you might include creativity thinking differently or having unusual perspectives and then you don't want the technology to sort of forsa population to convert on one particular and ideal before you know what and what the ideal should be but okay so when we select one of the issues that I have like with cloning and I hope that you agree with me is that we are we are going against so when you selected mean you have Offspring that's Nature's
00:08:39we are nature it like okay we're selecting traits but we're also adapting to our environment so I feel like no matter how you feel about global warming and climate change
00:08:57I agree that the climate is changing some of that I believe is man-made I don't believe that all of it is man-made only because even before humans were around the climate was changing I think that some of it might be a way to control the population in the money not all of it I do believe that we need to do things to protect our planet to protect ourselves but I think that
00:09:26like human beings need to select traits and that we need to allow allow the Next Generation to be born naturally versus if like if we select those traits we're going to unknowingly create children that might not have the traits that they need to have for the next four
00:09:49I think I actually eyes and light hair and light skin are adaptive traits for weather and it's like I really shouldn't be in Houston at the weather in the summertime you know I don't do well I think you know Evolution doesn't have a whole lot of foresight about what are the environmental changes that are kids will will have to face and I think you meant to do have some foresight it's not perfect but for example it's almost a no-brainer that kids in the future will need even more intelligence and the general intelligence will be even more important in the let me know later 21st century that it was even in earlier Generations like social raw like you just watched general intelligence I think is going to be crucial
00:10:42right and and by contrast things like
00:10:48physical size and strength unless your your banking on your kids becoming professional athletes just won't matter as much right or farming being on the upper body muscles two-wheel to plow or whatever aren't going to matter as much in fact smaller bodies might be better if you're going to go colonize Mars so we've got these prehistoric mate preferences the favorite things like big bodies were bust health and also general intelligence and you know conscientiousness and so forth some of those will be even more important in the in the near future some of them will be a little less important and I think it's okay for parents to kind of
00:11:34and anyway overrides their mate preferences a little bit by using the genetic technology too kind of Select embryos that are more line with what they think will be useful but the gravity of Mars is different than the gravity on Earth so short skinny people who don't use much research many resources would be fine for Chinese people Chinese people getting way taller and stronger even compared to Generations ago just recently trition right so it's not like short they were just stunted by globally people are getting taller and bigger and
00:12:16literacy is going up obesity but the first time in recorded human history and if I'm remembering the way they were this was set correctly that the first went for the first time in recorded human history you have obesity is a problem monks the the really poor
00:12:43yeah and
00:12:46the food industry has a lot to do without I think having microbiomes that are that are out of whack has a lot to do with that and I've got colleagues were working a lot on the microbiome and out of how to make it better and yeah right here at Rice University people who do home fecal transplant which works surprisingly well okay for those who might not be aware what you're talking about what what do you mean by the I guess microbiome the bacteria that live in your gut so they're good things that help you digest food and tank of a kombucha upstairs and I have done my own I had some issues years ago after having meningitis I was on for 6 weeks I was on prednisone and some other antibiotics I was on steroids and antibiotics and it really did my gut of all the good bacteria that I was supposed to have and I was given a fecal matter transplant
00:13:46my own body and it got me on a kind of a path of of drinking kombucha and things like that I know it sounds really hippyish but it helped quite a bit for my dad just Over My Dead. Shocked I donated a poop sounds really stupid but I donated poop I pooped in little plastic containers and they I sent it off and they told me I really need to poop I think it's from the from the gut and all that you see want to do their own branded poop transplants I think that would be a big a big thing Taylor Swift microbiome sounds really cheesy and Hoagie and something like
00:14:46only only really rich people with too much time on their hands with you but they're there is a lot that you know there's a lot of illness and such and the fact that I had been on so many antibiotics that killed my gut Flora it would have lied to a lot of illnesses and people with crohn's disease and I know that I would have cuz I I continue to get sick like I caught everything after that and then and then and now I drink kombucha and stuff like that and I eat yogurt night try not to eat too many Diner hamburgers I don't think it's useful not just your physical health but also mental health I think a lot of depression among young people is partly caused by typically proven links
00:15:38what's see you there I know we mentioned before we went live but are there any sort of Unfinished thoughts you have from last night everything you because I wanted to elaborate on or flush out
00:15:53we talked quite a bit about existential risk threats to humanity that could distinguish off Swype everybody else in out in this century and I think it was a good discussion as far as it went but what I like to try to do when I talk about ex risk is really try to give people a sense of what the stakes are because it's a lot of folks if you say well imagine something that wipes out for Billy Inhumans versus 8 billion humans how much worse is the one that wipes out everybody compared to the one that wipes out half the people people typically like at about twice as bad but if you really think it through if you think about how long the human species could survive how many Star systems we could colonize how many future humans and post humans that could be
00:16:44actually the situation wipes out 8 billion people is like a million a trillion a quadrillion times worse then wiping out half the people cuz it wiped out all the future potential and I didn't really convey that last night in the Sam Harris thing but I think that is the crucial thing that's why the smartest people I know are so concerned about existential risk it's not really the number of people living now who could die its number future entities that would that would be awesome amazing happy creative people who would never come into existence and and that to me is the steaks and that's my motivating concerned about this this issue
00:17:28what I guess what was there a particular seminal moment that key duendes into that particular subject or was it just as it was in a series of events or what would you do that I'll probably was my girlfriend gradually getting me into the effective altruism movement and introducing me to people night like Nick Bostrom who wrote this amazing book super intelligence and Bostrom in his other colleagues at future of humanity instituted Oxford do a lot of analysis of these existential risks and the future of humanity and the sweat of cosmic steaks of of not going extinct in the Y right about that the more it resonated number one with me being just a science fiction geek from way back and thinking about stuff on Taconic Cosmic scale
00:18:18but also second being a dad and being concerned about you know my students and future Generations it seemed like American politics for example is incredibly short-sighted like nobody talks about anything beyond sort of the next election cycle and who are these Oxford eyes I Bostrom talking about well if we delay colonizing the local Galactic supercluster that will be really bad in terms of you know the number of amazing sentient beings that could exist and I was just much more comfortable thinking of that scale so it was delightful to find people who were but it was also horrifying to find out I'm about there are serious sex sexual risks and they're mostly not really being taken as seriously as as they should be
00:19:09what are some of the existential risks that are uniform for those who made out of beetle tune in last night I got a camera for the restroom I know you were sitting here what are some of the risks that that you're particularly concerned about so the ones not to worry about are the purely natural ones the super volcanoes to asteroid impacts the gamma ray burst those are all super bad and they could extinguish us but they're extremely low probability I mean ask her to maybe we could but the ones that really matter of the human-caused existential rest I think climate change or Global trophic risk it might kill a billion people maybe
00:20:01I think it would lower our quality of life significantly it might poisoning our water and things like that I think it's horrible but it's so easy to solve that at the at the moment environmentalist movement is basically just using global warming as a tool that for all of us to self-flagellate and never ever this is a topic I don't discuss because then I get put it's like I can't be a client you know the term climate skeptic I can't say yeah I think there's a problem but I don't want to you know it one time that I heard too I guess counterpose people who can't have a rational conversation about it caught wind of were my climbing agnostic so you're not totally denying it but you're not totally sure and the other one is to Eco miserable ISM what would you were talking about that have the environment of movement will use it
00:21:01way for us to fly to lead our selves recycle light I don't recycle glass cuz it's freaking sand in it that we spend way more resources recycling it then it's worth it needs to go in a landfill and recycling is almost entirely waste of time so much of it is yeah I know but I try to be responsible but how I purchase inside. But the problem is you get this this thing that psychologists called moral licensing which is if you do one good thing you think oh I recycle today so I don't have to worry about a IX risk that's very very short-sighted I think that there are a lot of behaviors and the way that we like I like the upcycling like we using things like I I like to use reuse a bag a bunch of times and I like to purchase
00:22:01like I will spend a heck of a lot more money on clothing and on items like I won't buy costume jewelry or not sounds really stupid I'd rather by or I'll get like a necklace that I intend to wear for 50 years and then pass it down to my daughter rather than buy a bunch of things at like Forever 21 that I'm throwing away every few months and I know that something that most people don't think about or I'll buy the clothing that I know I'm going to wear for a really long time like the jet so last night this is a weird Segway either you or Sam mentioned something about who everything that you wearing tonight you put it on I think it was you about mates about mating everything that you're wearing tonight you chose as something about a mating ritual listed a ritual or potential friends are mates
00:22:56I did kind of the opposite where like obviously my wedding ring was a gift but like the earrings were a gift from one business partner and then like this was like a gift from my mother-in-law and like every bracelet that I wore it was like a Christmas present from so I don't buy myself jewelry maybe like this was like a gift my watch was a gift when my company got sold this jacket was given to me it was my dad's jacket and I got it when he died so it's like weird and then obviously my clothes are just my clothes but it was weird because I don't like by myself would it cut like embellishments it's just like somebody buys me something it's like oh okay so it's like every piece of jewelry that I have is like a somebody bought me that so I'm going out somewhere so let me put in earrings and every every piece of jewelry has like a gift from somebody so I can do her business partner or mother-in-law or my husband
00:23:5610 years ago I highlight at that
00:23:59modern America we just don't cherish these sort of these relics and these inheritances and off and we don't think enough about how do we buy things that are kids and turn the grandkids will use and I think you know that's really where recycling matters is recycling cross the generation it's not even about the like the dollar value I like the idea of and this is one thing I really like about like Middle Eastern culture in like like Chinese and like Indian culture where they use like gold and silver and they're not as big on my costume jewelry they can pass things down that have value to their children I want my daughters to have you know handbags that belong to me that they can own and I want them to be able to keep like my jewelry collection and things like that not because it has any money.
00:24:59tell her that it looks flashy but because it can kind of maintain its value so to speak and like pearls can be very knotted as opposed to just crappy stuff that tarnishes and then gets thrown away. Of course the modernist war against classical style had a lot to do with creating planned obsolescence of desirability right you gotta make sure the things go out of its not things go into style The crucial thing as things go out of style and that means you create a situation where you kids are actually embarrassed to wear anything that you would have worn and that gives marketers a huge amount of Leverage over our lives right and it also cuts the everything's a trend it comes to aesthetic continuity between between Generations
00:25:59is there maybe they have a sense of irony about it like the Hipster thing like the heights like I explain to you so there's an area of Houston for those who've never been to Houston call The Heights and a lot of the houses are I want to see from the 30s like 20s 30s 40s and when you you're not allowed to tear down a house and rebuild it you have to if you're going to redo your house it has to be original so you so it actually cost a lot of money and so the homes which maybe would normally sell for me know for $500,000 will go for a hunt like
00:26:39what's it like 1.5 million some of them but they they are so they're so big now because they've added on to them and they put so much into them sometimes they've had to knock down the house next door and double the lot size and we actually didn't drive to the area that I was talking about but
00:27:00these homes they're like Mansions but they used to be like these tiny little thirties homes and they've done such a good job with them and the people are so proud of the fact that they're living in a hundred year old house sad that the only way to get a lifestyle that feels so Dove authentic and aesthetic and classical is to have the kind of money to do that extra lifestyle right and I think in an Ideal World should have everybody would have access to
00:27:31if they wanted the kind of lifestyle and housing in clothing and jewelry that their that their parents or grandparents would have Al used to be you know you don't want them reusing hypodermic needles you don't have phrase or how do you put it in modern war or the modern world's world's war on classical values I put my mind immediately to some folks I've seen a talk about to say architecture people who may have loved Gothic or Baroque architecture and they absolutely despise brutalism for example I just took a pretty strong views on that I treat a fair amount about classical Aesthetics and
00:28:25I think what modernism did to the Arts painting sculpture architecture was was kind of a boring it was anti-human I think what you get is a is a systematic attack on human aesthetic instincts right you got Architects and artists trying to one-up each other about how can I create a work that that might seem logically like it should be beautiful if we were completely different species but that isn't actually attractive to our human eyes given that you know we have all the certain aesthetic preferences and actually created an art exhibition a couple years ago
00:29:04had a museum in Australia right ride to make this argument that humans do have kind of an ETA static provinces about human figures and Landscapes and objects and and light inform and so forth and all of those preferences we're kind of systematically attacked in the early 20th century by the modernist and what's the result alienating Urban Landscapes design that doesn't actually last that isn't child friendly old people friendly and kind of disposable
00:29:43culture that and it makes everything seem kind of cheap and Teddy
00:29:47yeah but you are you like a big art fan I'll show you I'll show you my Smart View you say that it was classical Aesthetics were under attack in the early 20th century by the modernist take us through what exactly that means or what what happened there
00:30:13so my interpretation of that the history there is basically you got you know the Victorian era the Arts and Crafts movement late 19th century there's a lot of focus on Craft and detail and ornamentation and kind of extravagant Beauty
00:30:32and then you got in the early 20th century a kind of is actually a socialist critique that says ornamentation is evil right ornamentation is Bourgeois decadence it's it's unconscionable that that a doctor would buy a sideboard that took somebody 200 hours to hand carve when you could have bought you know whatever the hundred thousand and Walter gropius end and all those modernist design leaders
00:31:13basically outlawed ornamentation but they also kind of outlawed anything that was
00:31:20really human friendly in terms of emotion and detailing and scale and they basically legislated it's the job of humans to adopt art design not vice versa a couple of more questions regarding that's actually a fast anything I'm not that cheating on Art architecture and maybe maybe this this has to do with what you're talking about so that really catches my attention you mention alienation could you can go into a little bit more about the effects of what this has been
00:31:56well it's really brought home to me when I was hanging out with a couple of her friends with my girlfriend the guy is a cop in London so he's Metropolitan Police and he talked about how there's actually task force in London Metropolitan Police about the areas of London that are particularly prone to Crime because of their bad design because of the brutalist architecture because of the way that the you know that the tunnels going to the roads or the staircases hide people or design details that make the environment just way more dangerous than they need to be and that they they actually had to identify social classes and they were all these high-rise large Urban Development built in the 50s through the 70s by these
00:32:52possibly well-meaning modernists but the result is everybody lives there as miserable as a psychological fact in terms of depression and crime. That is my very favorite very tight so we're sitting in Herman Miller chairs I absolutely adore Design Within Reach modern Scandinavian is my like my favorite if we go upstairs later and I show you my my art I really really really like very clean simple I used to be very utilitarian I like just simple plain I don't like a lot of Embellishments
00:33:37and that's that's what makes me feel comfortable I don't feel high stress and I don't like a lot of crevices I don't like things have to clean I'm not a fan of Victorian or any of that however I love going to Art Museums where I like the Faberge Museum sorry the Faberge exhibit. When it would come through here I like seeing all the little intricate details or like when you seen ameling on you know like the little jewelry boxes and such and you can tell that it took thousands of hours for someone to make something and you can tell it's all hand done especially when it's like a repetitive task and they had to get it just perfect and you can tell they couldn't take a break or else it wouldn't have lined up so I think that looks really neat but it's not something I want to bring into my home it's something I want to go visit I mean I would make a distinction between there is good modern design almost home furniture in my house is mid-century modern
00:34:37in Albuquerque where I live and it's beautiful as last night and it's really would but nobody's alienated by good you know mid-century modern is coffee table they are having aided by the brutalist high-rise you know welfare housing projects and that's that's the difference that the Scandinavian design works the brutalist high rises don't work I'm sure that a lot of people might have an idea of what that means but what do you mean by it when you use it
00:35:19alienation to me means you're human being and you confront an environment the physical or social environment that doesn't match
00:35:30you're kind of evolved instincts about what the how the world should work so the physical environment doesn't make sense to you in terms of my brain involved in pleistocene Africa on the Savannah I expect trees and water holes and Rolling Hills and grasslands and animals if I'm in a brutalist high-rise development in North London I'm not seeing any of that so it's alienating in the sense it doesn't match my instinct to preferences or the social alienation sexually alienation like I expect to grow up in a tribe that's coherent where I have good role models and siblings and cousins and and there's a mating Market that works and then if you don't have any any of those features in your your high school your workplace
00:36:22it's very frustrating and it creates depression anxiety self-doubt and it's kind of psychological detoxing I presume that that social media despite its name probably doesn't help with that
00:36:39yeah I think social media in I mean in some ways it gives us some of the social cues we want like it it's very good at giving a social feedback oh they like my post but it's not good at giving us sustained kind of meaningful face-to-face interactions it's kind of pseudo
00:36:59sudo status right you get the sugar high of the light or the retweet but you don't get any anything more substantives or deeper or more meaningful another question I think it's probably common sense to everybody with regard to the Aesthetics of the human body how that works but what's the evolutionary basis of that a hip to waist ratio we're Wasted of shoulders and so on and so forth what's what's the evolutionary basis with with regard to Aesthetics architecture classical vs Modern brutalist
00:37:41I think it's a lot to do with
00:37:43just accessibility and usability in human scale so if you go into St St Peters Cathedral in Rome it's a huge building I mean it to fucking huge building but there are elements of it that are absolutely human-scale there places to sit there statues you can relate to that are that are human scale there is a sort of fractal level of detailing all the way from the huge to the very small that where you can always find something to relate to buy contrast a lot of modernist design
00:38:17you can you can't even tell whether it's built for beings 1 foot tall or 50 ft tall right it doesn't really relate to the human scale one of my pet peeves is buildings we can't figure out where the door is yes right so give her some ever let that it was when I first moved out of there was a art festival thing out there I got invited to a park I walked around the entire circumference it's an enormous building it's supposed to look like a ship like a Queen Mary ship or something I walked the entire circumference of it and realized I was right by the one unlocked door in the entire building which I think is a fire hazard and I am parked right next to it right on the opposite side of it from where I could enter the entire circumference of the building didn't have an unlocked door and you couldn't tell where there was supposed to be a door
00:39:16it was supposed to look like a cruise ship or something young male modernist architecture that might seem really really cool but they're basically ignoring the needs of children and old people and handicapped and anybody with an IQ below 90 years old and Confused or more heat and yeah but they did make the I guess it's the air conditioning vent units look like the smoke stacks on a shift which is kind of clever you know if you're flying in on an airplane any cereal that looks like a cruise ship Lego a big Square ship but even then like cruise ships back in the day had I guess just to put it in them to put it in just one word how do you see us going away from that anytime soon if so how are we going to is it going to be something like a
00:40:17a gradual shift or a counter attack
00:40:21I think the more power that people have to ask for the architecture and design furnishings and clothing that they want that The Closer those things will got to the sort of human instinctual Aesthetics I think when you have a bunch of layers of
00:40:40commissioning in between people and what they actually got that's when you get disaster so if people can directly you know interface with an architect to develop their own their own house usually they got some pretty close to what they want but if they have to go through the state that commissions you know I never been development then there's a dozen layers of decision-makers in between the people have to use the bloody thing and the people who design it and I think with the rise of things like maker culture in 3D printers and mass customization you'll see oh and even eBay where it's so much easier to find your mid-century modern if you want online
00:41:32it'll be a lot easier for people to get the stuff they want
00:41:35MDR I mean you can the fact that there's open source engines now that you can you can create your own environment in 3D and you can walk through an environment that you created it on your own and then with a $300 headset you can walk through a house that you designed and say I want to put this over here and you know I'm looking at a VR unit hanging on the wall right now I think you know in 10 years it'll be amazing when teenagers will be able to give you know they're at their loved one A Valentine card that is literally a sort of the virtual Island they design that they loved one can explore and that's got all their paper to static features on the car and that was like the big thing like a funny about you a car it's like hey sweetie I bought you a house it's like here you can you can redesign at if if you don't like what it looks like but I know I don't know if it's real estate agent
00:42:35developers now at least are able to mock-up a house now and you can you can reorganize it it's almost like modular in a way so you can decide if I want the the third bathroom over here okay we can do that and then you can kind of do a virtual walkthrough he's doing to have the 360 cameras in you can use your browser to a friend at the house talking about like the cat that your pad before the house before the house is even been dealt you can do this there were a lot of themes about the future with the future going to look like we will you become a little bit of that with regard to X risks how do you feel about the future
00:43:32how I feel about the future both extremely optimistic and extremely terrified I think if we make it through this Century without going extinct it it's going to be awesome and I genuinely hope to live long enough to see that with regenerative medicine
00:43:49but we could easily mess it up and existing
00:43:54political institutions are not up to the job of keeping us from going extinct existing public culture really isn't up to the job even the discourse among the most intellectual and scientists is not very well in tune to what the the most important issues are when I see my colleagues wasting brainpower or on trivial issues like
00:44:22trivial you know relatively like 90% of the stuff that dominates new Cycles to what extent taxes should be cut by 2% or medicine should be socialized in this way verses that way none of it's going to matter and I I I
00:44:44often end up feeling like Sarah O'Connor and in the second Terminator movie throwing the papers around in the insane asylum going into this is all bullshit this is not going to matter won the the existential risk hits in the Wyndham in the machines make us though but what do you I know this is fairly deep question what do you think might need to change and what time frame
00:45:22I think
00:45:28I think higher education is a real bottleneck that prevents the necessary changes from happening I think we're doing a terrible job of educating
00:45:39the brightest most talented young people into thinking about the issues they really need to think about absolutely terrible we're betraying the whole the whole generation so I think
00:45:50if you could have
00:45:52you know if you if you go through University in an American 2018 and you don't know what the major existential risk spacing of species are
00:46:02that's a catastrophic failure of Education if you don't know what are the most likely jobs will be automated versus not automated and you're trying to choose a career that's a catastrophic failure if you're not taught how do you find a good mate and maintain and build sexual relationship so satisfying and that can result in kids and grandkids. So catastrophic failure so almost nothing that kids are learning in college is actually going to be rolling out a lot of plain and my personal opinion Riley stove is alarming is a lot of it is but not till we can go over some of that some of the time but but I guess to bring it back if they really are clearly focusing on the wrong stuff as far as what they teach are young people today
00:46:58I think they are like I teach human sexuality to you know a hundred kids are term and the way I frame it to them as look China will be the world superpower within 20 year is you guys don't have much control over the economy or what kind of jobs will still exist what you do have control over is your mate Choice your personal relationships your family structure this class is about that I'm not going to help you get a job I'm going to try to make it so you know if and when you get married you have a better marriage then you would otherwise have because that is a key source of human fulfillment
00:47:36and they seem to they seem to get that but apparently I'm one of the few classes were people talk in those terms about you know what what should you learn given what is under your control so I assume it's not a class and how to find a new haircut hook up on Tinder no I mean it is a bit if they want to do that but it's mostly things like
00:48:03well if you're straight you're interacting with these these other beings the opposite sex and you probably don't understand them very well and here's how to understand them better
00:48:15yeah it's
00:48:18yeah I had to put with it without getting too Lost In The Weeds into the Briar Patch it it's it's kind of remarkable when I've gone too far down this path that you have to explain these differences to people everything that I've heard you say in regards to sexuality whether it's about monogamy or polyamory has been very much about like honesty and transparency in truth nothing you said has been about not to bring up any particular names but as far as like the pickup artist movement that thing that you have said is ever been about this is how you trick a girl into getting her into bed or this is how you manipulated everything you said about it that I've heard you say about the mating practices is about this is how you're very open and honest and truthful even if it's sustainable for one night this is how you are very honest and and
00:49:18past worthy with another human being so that both of you go into this with open eyes and so that nobody gets hurt and whether this is going to be for the next hundred years till death do you part or their children or if you're just going to hit it and quit it
00:49:38everything I've ever heard come out of your mouth pertaining to relationship sex anything has been about this is how you're very open and honest with another human being
00:49:48and I think that that is yeah and I mean that's why I even though I'm not polyamorous and I have zero interest in that I think that you're one of the few polyamorous people that you know is open about polyamory that I have a ton of respect for him and I told you over lunch that a lot of the people that I know that is very vocal about polyamory they tend to be very anti monogamy they think there's no such thing as monogamy and monogamous people are just either they're jealous or they are the type that they just haven't come out of the closet yet everybody cheats while I'm just honest about it there people that they have their own issues they just use polyamory is a vehicle to get what they want and you're not you're very pragmatic you're very you believe that I mean just from what I've heard you say you're very Pro monogamy and a very Pro you know
00:50:48humans need to procreate and you believe that you know most people need to have families and you don't have children know that but you've given kind of your explanation for a win polyamory can work and when it can't work and everybody is different now and I am ready when I did the the book mate with Tucker Max couple years ago we really tried to emphasize that it is possible to lead a highly open ethical honest sexual life even if the only thing you want is short-term meeting even if you only want hookups as long as you're upfront about that you will be able to find other people want the same thing and then a positive some interaction everyone's happy but young people today seem not to trust
00:51:44did anybody else want something complementary to what they want and so they run around in the sweat of vague state of
00:51:53I know the dating gray area where nobody knows what to expect and they might get ghosted maybe they will get a proposal that there there's no there no rules that seem reliable and I think SSI we have to be able to offer young people
00:52:12a smorgasbord of different mating strategies and relationship patterns that fit a variety of different personality types and where each of them can be open and ethical we mention ride mention earlier before this it seems as if now that we've blown up all of the traditional sexual mores and ethics and now everybody's just kind of wandering around not knowing what the hell they're doing making it up as they go along in some cases you see the sort of I guess what another big crunch I guess for one of the better way of putting that we're in some circumstances fish on college campuses of the sort of Neo puritanism puritanism but divorced from the old I guess the old mores that were in a rooted in religion
00:53:05yeah there's this just to see you tomorrow sex negativity both from the right and the far left right where any we're basically heterosexual copulation is demonized from from all possible directions and heterosexual courtship in any traditional sense of both people making an effort to impress each other and demonstrate their virtues and talents is also kind of demoralized like a woman wanting to make herself pretty and wanting to go out of her way to be attractive to a straight male and one and a woman you know expressing wanting to be attracted to a more masculine you know what we consider it and a man wanting to be attracted to a more feminine you know classically feminine or a man saying I like women who wear high heels and dresses and perfume and get their nails done though he's sexist and we were just talking about the other group year old girls being being Axton the girls don't think it's sexy that you know there's only so many years it was
00:54:05is going to be able to get away with it being young and attractive enough and and no matter how young you are you have to have good genetics you have to eat right I mean there's a lot that goes into being able to pull off being a good girl not just any female can do it so and they you know they spend money on their their looks have to have a gym membership usually they have to eat right like I just said anyway my point is work goes into being a good girl people act like oh you just you just like show up and push your tits out so they're making good money doing something that they obviously enjoy and then these other people yeah it's actually even me and I said this last night at the event to a guy that was sitting there I said personally I don't want to see a short fat bald guy walking along with it swag I'm a straight woman I'd much rather see a young cute smiling girl with her cleavage pushed up walking across with a flag at same thing with waitresses even stay
00:55:05women are want to be served at want service in the service industry we want like young attractive smiling females as in the service industry you know that I given in hotel, it just I don't know there's something about like a young woman saying hello to you or you know anyway my point is the whole point today that I'm trying to make is that they so these older unattractive women like got the grid girls shut down because they think it's sexist and then on the was at Sky News when they were interviewing them the Formula One do you know anything about Formula 1 the grid girls are the girls imagine cheerleaders so but they walk across and they're the ones who like throw down the flag
00:55:56right okay they tore down the different flags are really attractive usually and they got banned because feminist think it's sexist it's like how are they sexist the ironies of all of this right as you get the left rejecting all the sort of tradlife relationships between traditional married couples where it's like male and female sexual send the mail dominates and then what happens they reinvent all of those Dynamics in that's a BDSM right way you'll have people go I'm a gender, Dustin I believe in total equality and I'm in the king saying and I'm in a 24/7 dominance submission relationship with my master so and so and then you're like
00:56:42you just literally recreated a my parents relationship from the early 60s and you just wrapped it up in a different package that is women want not all hashtag women many women most that wants some a lot of them desire I'm saying straight women desire some kind of dynamic there they don't they don't want a man to allow them to walk all over them II you know I live in California for a decade one of the reasons it was very easy for me to stay single and I I've mentioned this in the past is a lot of the guys if I would go on a date with a guy and I have a very strong Alpha personality go on a date with a guy they would express some form of political opinion some sort I would Express not having the same opinion within moments they would have the same of
00:57:42and it's me and I'm like that is so unattractive that is so incredibly like they would flip because they were trying to appease me my husband very first date I went on with my husband he was did not have the same opinions as me and he did not care act like he was very and overtime my opinions have changed a little more in his Direction he was very strong in his opinions and he didn't like he he did not try to impress me at all and he he would banter with me and he would like tease me about stuff you were going to make fun of the fact that I was this this like California libtard kind of thing but very lightly he didn't make fun of me but I would say something heavy like all that you're stupid California liberalism coming out he's like to trust me a few more months in Texas oil change your mind or even say things like that he's like that's just your California conditioning speaking of course wisdom of past Generations
00:58:42you literally are not allowed to teach in a college classroom anymore and I think that's a it's a problem that the best advice that current older Generations could give the younger people that is is literally to do tenured maybe you feel like you can draw lines and I'll use my husband as an example is like I would I would he would say something and that's what you don't really know that and he would like yes I do and I know friends of mine that I worked in universities would say they would always have to like have a caveat to be like well I believe but not everybody believes and my husband said it maybe it's cuz he he's from Texas but he would he would have his convictions and he would not waver on them and I'll be like but not always
00:59:42this is truth
00:59:44I don't know if you feel as because you worked in Academia and you work around students do you feel like you get pressured into having to like like you do you have to say well this is what I believe or are you allowed to say this is truth norcom swear this is true okay I'll try to give you the
01:00:09compression which I think is honest that I would update I would change my mind if you came at me with with evidence and that does happen I mean you know once every few weeks of cinnamon challenge me on some point maybe in human sexuality class and I'll go let me get back to you I'll look it up I'll come back and say who I was wrong sorry however I do it around with a lot of colleague to expect me to be extremely humble in that way about let's have Lucia in Psychology or sexual selection but where their own political convictions
01:00:45are absolutely on questionable like you're not allowed to say why do you think that
01:00:53add a pinch all all sort of
01:00:58be a little more assertive and I'll say look you think that tell me what three pieces of evidence would get you change your mind on that point like if we're discussing sex differences and usually even if they do you know serious published influential scientists usually they won't have any answer and I'll say oh sorry it's just it's a moral conviction. This an S&P Oracle statement is true, it does not a moral conviction and said it's an empirical claim you should be able to tell me what would change your mind and they can't that's actually perfect segue to what she was something that you said I think it was you that stuck with me about James D'Amore specifically that he wrote to the infamous Google memo you say it's basically correct you would have given him an a I remember I think was going to let there were four other you might have been one of them for for science
01:01:58yourself included that they said yeah this this kids basically right Google didn't care and they fired him anyway what's in your estimation what's going on with that and where does this lead at its current production trajectory since there doesn't seem to be any impetus for changing mat
01:02:19I mean in the way I sympathize with Google cuz they're at their between a rock and a hard place they are under intense pressure from shareholders federal government and the Publican and the media to two tried and increase number of like women and minorities in their in their company or at least I don't think they they think they're under that pressure on the other hand they want the best company and they want to hire meritocratic Lee they want to hire the best people so so
01:02:54basically I think what Google ends up doing is paying lip service to diversity
01:03:00but then they pay lip service to it and then poop State they hire people in HR who actually believe the diversity Kool-Aid
01:03:10and then there's a culture change within the company as a result of that so that they they kind of they wanted to do that the diversity window dressing but then it actually gets internalized and then you've got a company with basically a toxic sjw worldview that that doesn't care about firing reasonable people for no good reason we we've seen a weave scene of screenshots of of things that people have said stuff is come out from inside Google as a result of the D'Amore thing and it looks looks like me looking at the stuff in going oh my God these people run like them one of the most powerful tech companies in the world these people have the power to shape are very perceptions of reality that's more than slightly people I am not going to mention the person's name I know one of the people that work there that I saw screenshots from that I know one person that I've known for a number of years they are no longer with Google
01:04:10that had posted some extremely troubling comments that person is no longer with Google there now with another huge tech company that is even scarier then then their job with Google Now they hold their in charge of a bunch of Engineers and they hold a great deal of power and it blows my mind the the the couch howling that Google has done now know what I was going to ask a bit ago and I started but you know all this crazy stuff going on with Google where do you see this going at the current trajectory
01:04:53I think it's going to be shake out where the companies that hold their ground for meritocracy
01:05:00do better
01:05:02in the long run and I think the shareholders will start to notice and investors will start to notice and I think the companies that buy into the
01:05:10diversity and inclusion worldview i e buy into it in terms of really aggressive affirmative action are good just going to be at a competitive disadvantage the problem is if you have an oligopoly or Monopoly like Google it can take quite a while for me and efficiencies show up so Google can afford to
01:05:34bully its workers and to violate federal employment law just because they got they got the power in the money in the club one time and you know the one thing that Google The Google does the bestest is and they sell your data and they spam the canned spam ads I mean they did really don't create a whole lot they made a really good algorithm for for advertising and that's that's about it everything else they buy even the robotics technology sorry it took so long to get to you today should have taken me 8 minutes it took 30 because every time they acquire a new technology they they don't really update and they don't continue to work on the project stay just let them wither and die they don't update them very well of course the irony of Google AdWords is that the Google HR department will say there are no significant X differences in
01:06:34capacities whereas Google AdWords to Target entirely on these demographic categories and race tracks in class and then everything so they are monetize a hundred billion dollars a year in a driving through the demographic categories that they claim don't matter which is weird the highlight of this podcast for me is I want a kind of Segway into something we discussed at lunch one of the ideas I've always had is that I think we should be broken up into smaller groups I don't think that 8 billion people should coexist because people are so different I think one of the things that contributes to severe depression that a lot of people don't feel like they have their place and you mentioned moldbug is really weird word and I want you to kind of go into the ideas that you have for kind of help people can be living in smaller communities and
01:07:34elaborate on that cuz cuz I'm just going to sit here and agree with everything you say like if it went mainstream libertarian ever since I don't know age 20 Freedom over everything and I just like 7 years ago free markets freedom of thought and freedom of Association I think that's all great but then I would have stumbled across this guy named Curtis yarvin who wrote about 10 years ago under the pen-name mencius moldbug and moldbug had a series of really provocative blogs that have had a big impact in the the so-called neoreactionary movement or the dark enlightenment
01:08:17and more bug also is Hodak's libertarian but his view was
01:08:22governments are too big not just in terms of you know percentage of GDP that they sell cop but just geographically it might be better if
01:08:33this what a functional unit of a society was kind of a city-state kind of Singapore or Hong Kong sized thing or maybe if the Bay Area sort of seceded from California that would be about the right size I need to buy a kind of for July right and the advantage of that is if you have a patchwork of these should have spread out around the world they can each a Dopp different policies different immigration regime's different kinds of economic specialization they can help shape different culture is different sexual and social norms I can try out different things that can be experimental and then whatever works other city-states could adopt and incorporate and culturally appropriate the Japanese kind of take from other cultures and historically similar similar thing
01:09:24so I thought that made a lot of sense I would love to be able to to you know to see a Google ad for oh there's a new city-state whatever in Texas or Montana or or change and that is all you know kinky polyamorous darwinian libertarian scientists and then I could go be with my people right that would be awesome we can't do that right now because we don't really have freedom of Association we don't really have freedom of secession from nation-states
01:10:03and the most counterintuitive thing that moldbug argued really was within a city-state the stronger the government's Authority the more actual security at the house over the citizens less likely to be overthrown it is the more can afford to Grant citizens true freedom
01:10:23so if the government is unstable
01:10:25and it could be replaced then it has to do the game of manipulate and propagandize and Survey land and pay a lot of attention to what its citizens are doing
01:10:37if a city-states Authority in leadership is completely secure they don't have to do any of that they don't care what people do in their private lives where the business lives and that
01:10:52made me kind of rethink alot about thority and democracy and what political systems might actually work best so you can't throw Stone without hitting somebody or a TV talking about the political polarization these days and it does seem as we've breasted beyond the 320 million people part of a population Mark here in the United States it seems said for whatever reason I've got my own unified theory everybody else does that American society is coming apart at the seams and it's getting to the point where at least we are at least two radically different societies that are bitterly opposed to each other and it seems to be getting worse and it probably is I won't be the only person to think that might be even time to start thinking about some kind of alternative ugly and bloody feel like you don't have a voice
01:11:52cuz you're one of 320 million that we know of and you feel like there's no accountability because you're only one of 320 million so if you're in a smaller if you're in a smaller group you are forced to pull your own weight I mean a lot of people I don't want to say a lot of people but there is a stigma in some ways against people on welfare because at least in some places not all because you're not pulling your own weight so to speak if you weren't a much smaller group maybe there would be there be more care taken for people that are on disability because that person that's on disability you actually know them they're actually your neighbor there they're your best friend's Aunt there you know there are there somebody that you're familiar with in your in your neighborhood or in your community so there's more caretaking for them you're going to want to visit them
01:12:52and help them out versus right now when you're just part of a voting Bloc it's easier to want to cut off care to that person cuz you're like well you know I you know I I I have my needs and I pay all this in taxes and they're not pulling their weight cuz you don't actually know the person I'm so if you're in a smaller Community you're more inclined to want to help those in need and that's what they found do you know people that go do volunteer work with the homeless and such you when you're face-to-face with those people there that you humanize them so I think that's one thing that thing in a smaller Community also there's more accountability for those that are scamming the system because then you see the The Village drunk and you see that whether or not they're actually the village drunk or if they're actually like somebody who's in need and then maybe they're more inclined to want to pull their own weight because
01:13:51back you know a couple hundred years ago somebody who who wasn't pulling their own waiting for able-bodied and they were just kind of mooching off everybody they were going to get kicked out or they were going to get sent off to the to the field to Kenneth you know fend for themselves for a couple of weeks tribes for a million years have handled the problem of psychopaths and cheaters is you Exile them you said you go away you are not welcome here when you literally can't do that in nation-states you can't take a five-time violent felon and say we honestly don't want to put you in jail we don't really want to kill you please just leave we we don't do Exile anymore so the city-state idea from old bug wood would include
01:14:42you know every city state gets to choose
01:14:45absolutely who gets to come in by any criteria that the people there choose any criteria and if somebody breaks the rules that they would do whatever punishment is sort of contractually agreed upon or they would be they would be exiled
01:15:03not a problem with knowing people personally is like that'll work up until about a hundred fifty to two hundred people but you need a city-state that's a hundred thousand or million fingerprints so there I think like the solution is you need to have a enough of a sense of shared values and similarity that you at least can sympathize with the people you're taking care of through your health care welfare system so if I was in my ideal you know polyamorous darwinian libertarian State and somebody fell on hard times that at least I would have the confidence while at least they're polyamorous darwinian libertarian and that we have that in common and that's significant and therefore I care about them whereas if somebody need something but they have Valley is diametrically opposed to mine
01:15:57and everything they want to achieve goes against everything I want to achieve why the hell should I support them that is so counter-intuitive it can't possibly work and you're honest about that and that's one thing that I like a lot of people won't admit cuz I hear a lot of people say oh I care about everyone even it the people that have opposing of use to me it's like the testicle ache no you don't it's maybe you care about them in the sense that you don't want to see them murdered or you know you don't want you don't want to see them died of cancer I I can believe that but would you really bring them into your home I mean even Lily Allen as much as she's like oh I love the syrians then why aren't you bringing them into your own home and hosting them with your millions and millions of dollars and all your spare bedrooms already anticipating have already heard it really is a wall that's what that's what Federalism is for in Italy
01:16:57in the American system but that that she hasn't seemed to have stopped the rapid expansion and centralization of power in Washington DC and I don't think you have to be some sort of dyed-in-the-wool libertarian or I guess the garden-variety conservative type 2 to notice that so it doesn't seem like that that is working out either no I mean Federalism is an illusion if you can't secede if you don't have a credible threat. Like Texas would say we're going to Rita Claire the Republic of Texas and exit the us then the US doesn't really have any reason to inhibit but you know telling Texans about to do so I think the right of a community to to withdraw from a larger state is is absolutely fundamental it's as fundamental is the right if somebody to withdraw from a toxic marriage
01:17:57as an example you can't smash people together that that don't like each other or else you'll get you know the basically a larger version of the Yugoslavia War
01:18:06when it's at those people that keep saying you know they want I don't know what other the weather like I don't want any rules to the boundaries of this land open borders type those people it's like they want it for everybody else but they don't want it in their neighborhood like it's always the people that it's like okay well then we'll have it if we put someone who has polarizing views to your own in your own home why don't you bring someone who your diametrically okay then bring a trump supporter into your house like then you know Airbnb somebody who you know the Redneck Yacht so it it's the people who are like Pro open borders but also Pro gated community screenshot
01:19:06a guy who was going back and forth with someone just in the last couple of weeks who and then he was very very proband borders and then he on he started bragging about the fact that he lives in a 95% white neighborhood and he was going to say yeah and I'm like that is kind of the shittiest thing yeah it was Rob Reiner with regard to different new ways to Bernie society's new societal forms you mention the concept A little while ago called effective altruism especially with regard to you got your libertarian darwinian polyamorous State and you're going to be more likely to empathize with those that share your values that seems what what connection does that it might not have to f
01:20:06what is that so effective altruism is a new social movement it only goes back to about 2011 the tries to use reason and evidence and clear thinking to do the most good possible to do good better so it's in contrast to traditional charity which I think is mostly about virtue signaling right traditional charity you give money to some group that have nice ads with cuddly puppies or Starving Children you never know where the money goes what it actually complish is there's no accountability there's no transparency so effective altruism says if you're going to give you money to a group they should be able to provide empirical evidence preferably like randomized controlled trials to show this is a really effective way to spend money to solve a particular problem like
01:20:58you know produce malaria in Africa or reduce Global poverty or reduce existential risk or whatever
01:21:06so I love Pa this group because they're young their bright they're very rational the very empirical they're very self-critical about an updating what they do and why do new evidence and they're very Universalist in the sense that they're not just focused on our neighborhood our community but they they focus on the whole world partly because your dollar just goes farther in Africa than in trying to solve your local homeless crisis
01:21:41and you know some of the folks in effective altruism are more concerned about kind of current humans like
01:21:50deworm malaria get rid of intestinal parasites sorry deworm the world get rid of intestinal parasites in the guinea worm that says exactly etcetera some of them are fight Global poverty some of them are into Animal Welfare so lot of them are vegan or they're just against factory farming Pro behind the getting being a post of factory farming however I do have my in-laws live out in the middle of nowhere on hundreds of acres and they raise cows and you know my husband's family they the eat farm animals and I don't have any problem with the way that they go through is very ethical lights. No problem with free-range attempt as much as I can I'm willing to pay extra to at least get the sticker on my eggs and everything I try
01:22:48I shop at places that I I believe that my my meat and animal products my milk and everything is is more epically obtained and we try to get a half calf from the family farm but the funny thing is they don't eat their own cows they trade with other families a lot of the families out there we'll trade center which is kind of weird because it's it's still an animal but anyway neocameralism we going to bed and and effective altruism is
01:23:40like once you got your little city-state sorted out and it's efficient and everyone is as free as they can and they there with like-minded people then you've got you know the economic growth in solidarity and confidence to do altruism
01:23:56well to do it thought fully if you want to donate half of your GDP to other city-states that are suffering because they misguidedly adopted anarchists politics like you could do that if you wanted to convince other
01:24:11folks around the world to you know give up factory farm chickens you could you could do that you're separating what's good governance from what's good out for them you don't have to mix them
01:24:23yeah it seems it seems it seems like there are limits to not only altruism but the value and capability of it that's not to say it's never a never a good thing but actually pathological altruism is a term that I've heard
01:24:43yeah yeah humans harass you know given that were full of selfish genes it's kind of amazing that we've got these I'll Trust again stinks but they misfire and then we miss apply them and that they're not very good at getting value for money sorry I was standing there the ultra ISM with boycotting one of the things that I've been at a wedding last few days. Are you familiar with REI okay so I'm an REI Co-op member I like to know if you want to own $90 flip flops and you like to over pay for all your camping gear go to REI now they do have all high-end everything I got my $400 jogging stroller from there
01:25:32but I but anyway I also got like a bunch of gift cards at my baby shower so it was free to me but anyway my point is REI has a really high quality stuff you can get really good camping gear it's like the best top-of-the-line everything there if your Co-op member you get like a certain percentage back and then at the end of every however many months I think once a year twice a year you get like a little cardboard you can go in and you can purchase stuff you get like free whatever I'm so if you might husband he's a mountain biker and we go to Colorado so we buy a lot of stuff there any way of spending thousands of dollars at REI they have now decided they're not going to stop Camelback which is a product that we use it's like a water Hydro back with a little straw that smells like butt hole if you don't watch it out and so there's there's Camelback and there's like a couple of the brands of Vista I think they're not going to
01:26:32are these because they are the brand is related to another brand that I want to say is like gives a discount to NRA members something along that line or its or their related to a gun manufacturing company that gives Discount Center remembers something like that anyway re I decided that they're not going to carry these Brands anymore a brick-and-mortar stores says they're not going to carry these that means Amazon's going to carry them around their online Merchants are going to carry them
01:27:06so re I decided they're not that they're going to allow this boycott to go through the problem that I have with this even though it seems like Ultra I'll look where you know where we're going to do the right thing does that mean that they are going to not carry products by any company where the CEO is ever his wife because that that's the other thing and then and then I start to say like okay so do you make sure that every product was not was not touched by children's hands and its manufacturing process do you make sure that every every person in the line got a living wage do you make sure that you know it's like she don't spider constitute you know our constitution so what if I'm like so now and now you're now the
01:28:03where is it at I think the effect of altruist approach to this is they've been looked at are boycotts effective and they seem to have concluded no they aren't and that's why you guys don't do boycotts like for example the way that they engaged to try to get the chicken industry to move away from from factory farming is actually talk to the chicken industry and they consult with them and they you know cooperate and try to find Solutions aren't just trying to destroy the industry and the don't just do these big noisy symbolic boycotts so you know if REI wants to boycott a particular as supplier that's fine the problem is you know as you point out everyone's Guilty by yes with someone somehow about how much you so
01:28:56how do you unlike do I want the supplier where the
01:29:03you know the CEO of manufacturing company over in Macau is associated with a cropped you know minister of defense and some country or do I want the one that uses child labor or do I want the one that doesn't respect the rights of its female workers and him sexually harassed like there's so many that possible things you can get on a soapbox about and trying to point cot is such a
01:29:35you have to be Amish I mean you really I mean that's that's really what it comes down to is if you say this is where I draw the line obit child labors okay
01:29:47it gets to the point of paralysis it seems paralysis of the economy of the middle of nowhere and make make your own phone make it if you don't make your own clothing because every Stitch and everything is theirs there's blood on your hands if you purchase something that was manufactured unless I Robot pulled it up at the ground but then I mean like strip mining Everyone likes to go shit on diamonds 70% of the diamonds out there aren't even jewelry grade there another scientific instruments also a lot of the diamonds are now Mind by robots looking Canada like the 50 mines and then also they forget that the the precious metals we have that they also forgot that emeralds rubies all of those are mind like they think they like where did they think all those other things came from they forget that the roads that were driving on like those were stripped mind
01:30:47it's like all of this stuff came from the ground unless it's plastic or at Cindy after something in aluminum what do you think what do they think all of this stuff came from the environmental is to expect as just a flagellate ourselves but the diamond industry is that so let's ignore everything else and the silica that we use for her that I don't know if you're familiar with like the mines in China the silica that were using for the for the solar panels those are mine I mean if we're going to shit on the diamond industry we need to shut down the solar panel industry
01:31:23yeah so it in the in the effective altruism movement one sign that you're you're being serious is that you don't change your causes every year on on a fat that if something was a problem last year and you about it it should still be a problem next year until you solve it and there should be a kind of stability of what your what your priorities are and if you change your priorities it should be because of evidence not because of news coverage where I was that the standards for the activist model is like oh my God you know Turtles being caught in in fishnets out at Sea that's so 2015 nobody cares about that anymore now the thing is this other cause is a symptom of a runaway virtue signaling I stopped eating canned tuna for years because I consider Dolphins to be pretty much like humans in the water I was also a teenager
01:32:23and I wear tie-dye so well dolphins are rapists also so I don't want to wake up
01:32:33no but I mean I'm not saying nobody should ever boycott anything ever and I'm not saying that all of this is virtue signaling and we also clarified the what we believe what are when I use the word Virtue signaling from and Jacob uses the word Virtue signaling we don't mean like wearing a sticker that says I voted to let your friends know you voted or we don't mean I'm wearing a t-shirt that you donated a few thousand dollars are the stuff at the Goodwill Wichita Theatre of white people in the midwest gave a standing ovation that black panther and everybody was crying and this was the most amazing film in the world meaning in meaning you are yeah the white woman being lifted above all the minorities because you don't have hurt you
01:33:33search for the social brownie points and get one. If you do good things you do deserve a pat on the back because I think that I like those little I guess little nipples of cocaine that we get the rats to keep them to keep them going on I think that we deserve a pat on the back when we do good things but that oxytocin aren't you know that little serotonin the weekend but if people are saying and doing things simply for the other pat on the back from the masses that's when I have an issue with it you can tell yeah I think you know if you want absolutely we evolve to Virtue signal virtue signaling is a great source of genuine altruism often when it's it's a it's an instinct that you can Hornets very powerfully for the good and good effective virtue signaling should be rewarded
01:34:33but we kind of live in a society where we will give more you know kudos to a Hollywood celebrities like I work at the dog shelter we was two dogs then to somebody whereas those same people will typically not say thank you for your service to to military vet or or go out of their way to thank fireman or police or nurse or right or, yeah and
01:35:00that tends to alienate the people are actually doing the work
01:35:05I did look for yours I did after school programs and pretty shity high school's I mean by shady I mean like really bad areas in Los Angeles kids that most of them had never known anybody who got a college like Boyle Heights things like that or places like that I should say and a lot of the a lot of the kids that I worked with were minorities and at the time it didn't occur like
01:35:37I remember at one point the the term white savior complex came up and I was so incredibly offended because that was never my intention I was very broke when I started this it was like a paying it forward because I was given opportunities when I didn't deserve them cuz I was not raised rich and so for me to be able to help other kids who were underserved I think is the is the proper term I don't want to say disadvantaged but just that they weren't given opportunities in life
01:36:15and so I remember it was through social media that I started hearing oh you know white people always going so I I I never ever posted images of me with the kids I would untag myself in pictures on Facebook when people would tag me in them and I did not want to be associated with the with the program that I was involved in somebody had posted a YouTube video with me in it and I ask them to take my name out of it because I did it because I would get all kinds of hate comments like a virtue signaling and I'm like no I'm actually involved and I stopped the programs so and even out here in Houston around the Houston robotics club and it's in the majority of the people are I mean kissing only 25% white the majority are you know non-white but we don't we don't really upload photos of ourselves
01:37:16yeah because you get so much shit with people saying you know the kinds of comments and it's not right leaning people it's always far left too far left people that think I'll look a white person who's in a white savior complex and it's it's really obnoxious but it it actually another their wishes would be the white savior complex so what the problem is you're going around the state now people you're only supposed to help people through the state that started two in a million dollars I already sent you and it doesn't 200 million on like stem programs for mostly robotics stuff just in 2018 I think it is or know those two I think it's supposed to be like each yeah he's dumped what's funny is I really appreciated how much how much
01:38:16Obama did for like inviting the stem stuff to the white like the different stem programs for the White House is actually putting a lot more money into the school programs then Obama said Obama did a lot of advertising for it but Trump actually pumping more money into the to the schools so well I'm actually I'm out of questions so am I I'm I'm super excited to hear the mold bug that like they blew my mind because I've had this like idea of these like smaller how you know a lot of it stems around the fact that I think you know I mention this at lunch I think people need to be able to find their own little Society I think that there's a lot of a lot of depression and a lot of the end of Lost
01:39:10like just sad people that feel like they don't have a place in the world and I think of that if they could go find their their place in the world in a small Society somewhere you know whether it be polyamory or whether you know that electric robot rule Texas the key thing for me is you know I realized you can't be a libertarian
01:39:36if you only have individual Freedom you have to group Freedom you have to have the freedom to create your own Society according to your own values and your own your own entry and exit criteria are you familiar with the liberalist know what we can get in
01:39:53and yeah so I think the world would be better off if people could dumb exercise Freedom not just at that individual level but not that social and cultural level
01:40:05well before you go I wanted to ask you if you have anything you wanted to plug I know you mentioned the while ago that you had a podcast of your own should be fun times oh my gosh I checked I checked your website and your CD before we brought you in and I was like
01:40:24wow you're impressive thanks yeah so go to website Primal pali.com Primal pali.com my Twitter handle is at Primal Polly and the option yeah my my books are all the mating mind spent and mate working on a new one and
01:40:48yeah I'll see if anybody is interested in the effective altruism movement just Google effective altruism and they have really really user-friendly explanations what it is how it works how to get more involved and all the different things that they that they're involved in today we've been speaking with evolutionary psychologists Jeffrey Miller and Ben are thank you very much for your time this

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