Full Transcript for Hot Hot Heat - "Elevator" with Steve Bays

responder. However, I was thrilled and delighted when 70 00:04:02.560 --> 00:04:05.840 sixteen months later Steve finally texted me back. He was scrolling, 71 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:08.199 he found my text, and he responded to it, and 72 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:12.280 he enthusiastically joined us on the show to talk about 73 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:17.000 taking Hot Hot Heat from scrappy Vancouver indie upstarts all 74 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:20.160 the way to Sire Records, to the major label world 75 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:24.519 of the United States of America and beyond. Steve, as 76 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.759 you will hear, is a man who, even more than me, 77 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:29.279 loves to go off on a tangent, loves to start 78 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.759 talking and then start discovering new thoughts and new considerations 79 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:35.279 in that sentence and following them where they're lead. And 80 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:38.839 so it's a real freewheeling conversation. It's a real heady 81 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:42.480 and philosophical conversation. And it's also a conversation full of 82 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:45.639 amazing little glimpses into just what it was like to 83 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.839 be trying to make a major label debut at this 84 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:50.240 exact moment when I really started to care about it, 85 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:53.319 when my band was taking off, when indie rock seemed 86 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.399 for this brief shining moment like it was going to 87 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:58.480 be the next major label big money Maker and Hot 88 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.120 Hot Heat were right in the episode of it, and 89 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.279 it was a wild experience. And I'm happy to say 90 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:07.879 I've really come to love Elevator Hot Hot Heats major 91 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:10.920 label debut. My early surprise at the chord change has 92 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.720 given way to admiration at the musicality of the whole record. 93 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.079 It's really terrific. I had a blast listening to it 94 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.319 to prepare for this conversation, and I had a blast 95 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:23.360 talking to Steve and listening to Steve talk, maybe even 96 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.000 more so. And so now it's your turn as well. 97 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.279 Without further ado, here is my conversation with Hot Hot 98 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:45.439 Heats Steve Bays. Steve Bays. I wanted to start by 99 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.199 saying your full name because it felt like broadcast quality talking, 100 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:52.079 and I also thought we should start with a point 101 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:56.000 of order because there's sort of two potential Hot Hot 102 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.360 Heat major label debuts, there's like literally the first record 103 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:02.120 of yours

that came out on a major label, and 104 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:04.759 then there's also the first record that you made under 105 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.519 the auspices of the major label. So I thought maybe 106 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:11.040 we could just sort of start by talking through how 107 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:15.720 you went from subpop to Sire with make up, the breakdown, 108 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:16.439 and then beyond. 109 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:20.439 Well, basically we were on sub Pop and we were thinking, 110 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.399 maybe we'll just sign with this local label, Mint Records. 111 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.079 Like I was in the habit of just starting bands 112 00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:28.839 and putting out records. You know, you make a bunch 113 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:30.480 of songs, and you put them out, you play a 114 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:35.079 show or two, usually like in a basement, and and 115 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:39.480 Hot He was just one of four bands at that moment, 116 00:06:39.639 --> 00:06:42.240 and I was always in different bands sort of with 117 00:06:42.279 --> 00:06:45.160 the same people on the scene and stuff. But then 118 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:49.439 Subpop said they were curious about the demos we sent in. 119 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.360 Even though they said don't send your demos on their 120 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:55.279 website explicitly, they did check out our. 121 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.680 Demos and they were kind of curious. 122 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.680 They were Heat curious, and and they asked us to 123 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.199 come down to Seattle and open for do you know 124 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:05.240 that band The Liars? 125 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.839 From Australia. Yeah, I used to I love that band 126 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:09.199 back in. 127 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:37.439 The day, me too, and they were one of the 128 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.759 coolest live bands I'd ever seen and kind of wore 129 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.959 a big influence actually of ours. 130 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:43.319 I think. 131 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:47.279 Anyway, we thought we did okay, but you know, we're 132 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:50.000 still like a young band, and we didn't you know, 133 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:52.920 we're essentially doing like a live show that's a job interview, 134 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:57.519 and then we were making classic mistakes, like they give 135 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.360 you like free free food and you're like, oh my god, 136 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:04.759 we have free food, so just like slamming like all 137 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:08.160 these burritos seconds before we go on, like just classic 138 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:09.439 idiot stuff. 139 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:11.040 It wasn't a great set. 140 00:08:10.839 --> 00:08:13.759 And then the liars were phenomenal, and we didn't think 141 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.399 they'd sign us, but then they were like, okay, we'll 142 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.480 sign you for one record, And normally they always do 143 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:26.319 three plus options, so that if if you don't succeed, 144 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.079 I guess they can sort of quietly shelvew and then 145 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.519 if you do succeed, they can sort of keep putting 146 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.559 out your records, which I guess I understand. 147 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.399 And then they wanted. 148 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:39.080 Us to record with Chris Walla, so we did a 149 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:41.679 couple songs with Chris Waller or three songs with Chris 150 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.720 Walla and he was in Death Cab at the time, 151 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:49.080 and we recorded those at a Hall of Justice, which 152 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:52.200 was used to be Jack and Dino's studio where they 153 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.039 did Nirvana Bleach and stuff. 154 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.559 And we were all big Nirvana fans, so. 155 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.799 We didn't really know anything about labels and stuff either, 156 00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:01.840 so we were just sort of like, well, what did 157 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:02.519 Nirvana do? 158 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:02.879 You know? 159 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.879 Like we didn't really didn't know, you know, So we 160 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:08.919 ended up just putting out an EP two uh, and 161 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.080 it was like songs that I even the first two 162 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.480 songs were songs that I had like mixed in our apartment, 163 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:18.200 like on a crack version of q BAS And I 164 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:20.600 had no idea what I was doing. I was just like, 165 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.000 I don't know, and they're like, yeah, we're going to 166 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:25.879 put those songs out on an EP. It's like, oh no, Like, 167 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:27.559 I have no idea what I'm doing? 168 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:30.600 What do you get? What are you thinking? But people 169 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:31.039 dug it. 170 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:34.840 And I remember we got asked to play the Crocodile 171 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:38.120 in Seattle for sub Pop's twentieth anniversary, and it was 172 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:42.000 like it was us and the Shins and mud Honey. Wow, 173 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:44.879 I don't remember like the Shins being like, yeah, we 174 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.720 can't stop listening to your EP. It's on constant rotation. 175 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:50.600 I was like, oh really, you know, like because I 176 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:52.799 had no idea. I thought nobody was going to like us, 177 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:57.639 because just classic low self esteem vibes. And then we 178 00:09:57.759 --> 00:09:59.559 kind of got a buzz really quick, and all of 179 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.720

a sudden, it was like we were doing opening slots 180 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:05.919 for bigger bands like in La and stuff, And I 181 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.879 remember seeing like five hundred people jamming in for our 182 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:12.399 set and then sort of trickling out for the headliners. 183 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:15.519 And I was like, oh my god, what does this mean? 184 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:18.840 You know, like, I, yeah, what a feeling. Yeah, it's 185 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:20.159 it's great. 186 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:23.639 I mean it'll tear you down just as fast as 187 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:24.279 it builds you up. 188 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.799 Because someday you're the headliner and it's your set that 189 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.639 people are trickling out. Yeah exactly exactly. 190 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:32.759 You're eventually you're that guy that's being like peaking like 191 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.799 through the curtains to see how many people are in 192 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.240 the audience, Like, yes, not a lot of people here, 193 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:42.039 you know, Like, yeah, it's just it's a brutal it's 194 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:43.399 a brutal thing. So you kind of have to just 195 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:47.159 like learn to be numb to the benefits of the 196 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:50.799 ego and hopefully avoid all the downsides or as much 197 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.879 as you can. Anyway, So yeah, they just wanted a 198 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:56.039 one record deal, but we wanted to do it with 199 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:57.960 Jack and Dina, and they're like, oh, he's kind of 200 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:01.000 old school, we think you should. I was like Phil Eck, 201 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:05.440 who's doing Murder City Devils and and Modest Mouse or 202 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.799 Chris Walla like, And we definitely loved working with Chris Walla, 203 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.600 and in some ways I would have loved to have 204 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.080 done our second record with him, but I think he 205 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.240 was on tour or something like that. 206 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:18.639 But anyway, so we so we did. We went with 207 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:20.039 Jack Anddino just because. 208 00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.519 We loved Nirvana Bleach and then we were friends with 209 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:26.600 the Black Halos in Vancouver. We had been playing with 210 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:28.799 them a bunch and they, at least for me, were 211 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.799 kind of mentors for like the business side of the 212 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:36.360 music stuff for me, because I kind of came from 213 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.000 like the era where if you want to do a tour, 214 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.720 like you're looking at the back of a twenty five 215 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.279 cent issue of Heart Attack and you're looking at you know, 216

00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:50.200 who's booking shows in Pasadena like, oh, Jerry, okay, you know, 217 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.200 and then you're playing to like ten people in his basement, 218 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.559 but like you got a tour, yep, you know how 219 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:00.480 it is. So anyway, the Black Halos were kind of like, 220 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:02.960 oh yeah, subpop's great. So we're like, okay, we're going 221 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:04.919 to go Supop, We're gonna do Jack and Diino, We're 222 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.679 gonna go to Mushroom. And they were just like, oh, 223 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.120 like he's very like he doesn't like impart a lot 224 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:14.960 of character. You know, he's a great engineer, but even 225 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.080 he said like he's not really a producer. He's like, 226 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.399 who am I to tell you what you should do? 227 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:22.120 His whole thing was was more he just wanted to 228 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.639 make sure that the engineering was really good. Yeah, like 229 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:29.360 the Albini thing, Yeah, totally Albini vibes. And like I 230 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:33.120 just remember hearing the record because we only had six 231 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:36.480 days to do it, maybe seven, and then I think 232 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:40.559 we had another two days mixing in Seattle at Jack's studio, 233 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.759 and I was like still writing the lyrics on the 234 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:48.000 ferry from Victoria to Vancouver, like Bandages was supposed to 235 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.720 be something else because I thought it rolled off the 236 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:51.399 tongue really weird. 237 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:52.960 To be like bend at jazz. 238 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:15.200 Ja, you know what I mean, Like because there's like 239 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.720 three syllables, but then there's the way they're delivered, Like 240 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.039 it could be like duda d you know, that would 241 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.240 be one kind of three syllable word, or dad would 242 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:28.639 be another kind of three syllable word. So it's like 243 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:30.240 bandage is just filler, you know. 244 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.440 Yeah. My wife was just listening to a record I 245 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.799 made and she was like, you, every song is about smoking, 246 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.759 and I was like, well, cigarette really, Oh it was great. 247 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:39.960 It's such a perfect word to sing. I just can't 248 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:40.840 resist it. 249 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.960 It rolls off the tongue so smooth, and I've I've 250 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.639 resisted using the word cigarette just because I don't know. 251 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:53.080 My parents were very like they didn't

really say a 252 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.440 lot about anything, Like we never had like a sex 253 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:58.159 talk or a drug talk or anything. But they were 254 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:02.600 just like cigarettes are bad, and so I was like, 255 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:04.279 I can't mention cigarettes. 256 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:06.360 That was my logic. 257 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.360 Eventually, you grow up, I guess, and now when I 258 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:12.159 hear someone say cigarette, I'm always sort of like the 259 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:14.799 songwriter and Me's like, you know what you're doing. 260 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.440 Yeah, it's a cool word. We all know it. We 261 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:20.120 all know it. Yeah, I never smoked, so I just 262 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.679 I just sing about it. It's like stolen valor. 263 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:25.159 M totally stolen by I think that was my other 264 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.720 thing too, is I wasn't a smoker, so I kind 265 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:30.759 of felt like I wouldeel like singing lyrics about doing 266 00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:33.480 like wicked kickflips when like you can bare le allie, 267 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:34.799 you know, I. 268 00:14:34.759 --> 00:14:36.480 Do know, And I'm going to write a song about 269 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:37.360 wicked Kickflips. 270 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.440 Wicked Kickflips would actually be a great band man, somebody 271 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:42.000 should take it. 272 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.039 That's true, that one's free for listeners of major label debut, 273 00:14:45.320 --> 00:15:01.639 Wicked Kickflips, Wicked Kickflips, just hang out the studio. Do 274 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:04.559 they like A and R the record while you're working 275 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.559 on it? No, not at all. Oh yeah. 276 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:10.120 So just to conclude the story, So the second we've 277 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:13.039 finished it, the mixing of it, which was after like 278 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:17.159 you know, essentially nine days in total to make this record, 279 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:19.159 and I didn't even it was it was such a 280 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:22.759 fast record. I didn't even bring my my Juno sixth 281 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:25.559 or Juno sixty, which I was for years. That was 282 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.399 my main thing, was the Juno. And then I just 283 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:29.240 showed up to the studio. It was like, oh, just 284 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.360 use whatever they have there, and they didn't have a juno, 285 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:34.240 so it's like, all of a sudden, we're putting on 286 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:36.159 an organ based record. 287 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:38.120 And that's such a part of the identity of that record. 288 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.039 And it's just because that's what was in the studio. 289 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:43.639 I know, I know, And there was also piano on it, 290 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.000 so it was like organ and piano. It's like, and 291 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.879 then when we had to go on tours, like ah, 292 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.919 all like keyboards that have built in sounds that do 293 00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:58.399 piano sound awful shitty and they look shitty. 294 00:15:58.440 --> 00:15:58.679 I had. 295 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.120 I had to buy this role in Rollin' Phantom. This 296 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:04.519 is like before the Nord even existed. Oh no, it 297 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:08.679 was a cord Triton I had, and then eventually I 298 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.200 upgraded to a role in Phantom. Both were kind of awful, 299 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:15.279 to be honest, and I remember being like, oh, why 300 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.840 did I write all these songs with freakin' organ and piano? 301 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.399 But actually the what's arguably probably. 302 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:27.600 Our most well known song middle Middle of Nowhere from Elevator, 303 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.360 the intro piano, which is just like octave notes, like 304 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:34.879 a really simple riff that was on the demo. I 305 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.360 just used the Rolling Phantom and it just sounded so bad, 306 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.200 so all I could think to do was just slam 307 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:43.320 the compression, like just all setting setana. I didn't even 308 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.759 know what compression really did. And then we tried to 309 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:49.039 replace it in like the fancy studios you know in 310 00:16:49.080 --> 00:17:04.319 sound City, and yeah, we couldn't do it. 311 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:14.680 Don't get mad if that's really interesting. I guess in 312 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:18.079 like a rock format, the hugeness of a beautiful, nice 313 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.519 sounding acoustic piano could actually kind of get in the way, 314 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:23.440 whereas the tininess and that piano sound is like very 315 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.880 honky talk almost yeah, guessed it was digital though, Yeah, 316 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:29.400 actually this it was. 317 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.559 It was honky talk piano from the Rolling Phantom, just 318 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:35.759 super compressed, and yeah, we couldn't beat it, so Dave 319 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:39.240 Sardy was like, yeah, let's just use that shitty Rolling Phantom. 320 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.720 Hell yeah, sorry, I keep derailing you. You're we're still 321 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:45.319 getting from subpop to sire. But that's okay. This is 322 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.079 a journey that we're on together. We'll go there at the. 323 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.720 We have a joke my wife and I whenever we're 324 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:56.039 watching like a crappy reality show, every time

someone says journey, 325 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.759 you take a shot, I were not taking shots. She 326 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:03.079 doesn't drink at all, and if I do, I ruined 327 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.960 my next day. Now, unfortunately I think it was Temptation Island. Anyway, 328 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:12.279 they've bastardized a great word. I love journey because journey 329 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.160 is everything. Like to me, I'm all about the process. 330 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.279 I'm not about the reward. I'm about the journey, not 331 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.599 the destination. So screw you, Temptation Island. 332 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:22.279 That's right. 333 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:28.079 So I remember we finished it, and the way Jack 334 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.160 mixes is sort of similar to Steve Albini style, words 335 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:36.319 like he doesn't want to impart his flavor on yours, 336 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:40.119 like you know, And years later I realize you're either 337 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.839 documenting a moment or you're creating a moment. 338 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.000 And so with bands, it's often what's the goal here? 339 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.359 Are we're trying to create something or are we documenting it? 340 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:52.839 And if you don't establish that like early on, sometimes 341 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:56.799 that's actually the source of all your conflict. But yeah, 342 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.240 he was very much a documented and we were yeah, 343 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.200 and it just felt so naked. I just remember hearing 344 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.279 the mixes and being like, oh my god, that's what 345 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:06.880 I sound like. 346 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:07.200 You know. 347 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.920 I felt like those dreams were you're naked in a classroom. 348 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:13.720 And so we went and played it for Subpop in 349 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.359 their office. It was the most kind of like mister 350 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.079 Show parody of like a record label moment of my 351 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.119 life where it was like we're in a boardroom like 352 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:27.599 delivering the album and we all listened to it start 353 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.559 to finish, and I was like, well, we're going to 354 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.480 get dropped. They hate us, We suck. And then they 355 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:40.039 were just like it's good. And immediately they were like, 356 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.839 we want to sign you for two more records. We want, 357 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:47.200 we want to do like the typical kind of deal 358 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:52.000 or whatever. But by that point Tony who signed us, 359 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.000 I believe he was the head of A and R 360 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:57.799 at Subpop. He was dating this girl, Rachel, and she

361 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.640 had just he was trying to get out of the 362 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.960 major label world, and he had previously worked for it's 363 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.720 either Inner Scope or DreamWorks, and I think he was 364 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:10.839 like head of college radio or something. I could be wrong, 365 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.680 but he's just like one of those guys that's just 366 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.519 so cool. And I was decently cool compared to other 367 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:20.839 people I knew, but I was such a dork compared 368 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.720 to him, like he was legit cool. And so he 369 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.079 was dating this started dating this girl Rachel, and then 370 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.359 but she was on the opposite trajectory. 371 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.799 And she got a job at Warner and one of 372 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:34.880 the first questions that. 373 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.240 Tom Wally, the CEO and head of A and R, 374 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.559 said was what are you listening to right now? And 375 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:44.960 she's like, Oh, I'm really into how to Heat and 376 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:47.000 so I think that's how we got on their radar. 377 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.359 But then we were also we were playing shows and 378 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:52.119 it was starting to do well, Like we got a 379 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.119 lot of college play and stuff, and then I was 380 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.000 really into I think we were all really into the 381 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.880 idea of like free lunches because I remember hearing like 382 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:02.599 when bands we get courted, you'd get like free meals. 383 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:06.400 So we were just like meeting with every label we 384 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.960 could just to get free food. Basically, that's the way 385 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:09.359 to do it. 386 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.440 We did that. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, we had a lot. 387 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.440 We had a lot of meals we met with, you know, 388 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.680 probably someone from like all the all the big ones. 389 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:20.839 You know, it's just like before the record even comes 390 00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:23.119 out on sub pop or it has, it sort of 391 00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:25.240 started to work into the world. By now. I think 392 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.759 we started to get a buzz from. 393 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:32.440 Our EP actually, and I remember hearing about how like 394 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:35.480 there was like A and R forums and stuff where 395 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:38.000 there were people would be like, these are the bands 396 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.319 like we're thinking about and even when our EP was out, 397 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:45.240 we were kind of getting getting talks in that world. 398 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.759 And I remember the one thing I did know was 399 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:51.680 I was like trying to stick with the subpop world. 400 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:56.759 But I was indie to major curious because I saw 401 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.759 like the Flaming Lips did that transition and where they 402 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.920 left subpop I think, and they signed with Warner and 403 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:05.319 it was. 404 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.200 Like this fifty to fifty deal, which at. 405 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:10.119 The time was kind of a new thing, and so 406 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:11.599 I was like, I really want to do this like 407 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:15.079 fifty to fifty thing, and I can't even remember. It's 408 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.000 like I'm so bad with business stuff even to this day, 409 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:21.640 Like if you ask me anything about who owns my 410 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:24.680 masters are or where the money goes and stuff like, 411 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:25.839 I'm like, I don't know. 412 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.359 I have an accountant. She sends me money sometimes when 413 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:29.480 I'm in debt. 414 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.599 But so I knew the Flaming Lips thing seems kind 415 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.240 of cool. And then I also knew that the Hives 416 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:39.759 were courting a lot of bands at the time, and 417 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.680 they were like, we'll go with Warner Brothers, but only 418 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:47.039 if you you know, make the Sire name active again, 419 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.240 because it actually hadn't been active for a long time, 420 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.319 and it was like you know, Talking Heads and the 421 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:54.839 Smiths and like all like these great bands were on 422 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:58.599 Sire and then they kind of just merged it all 423 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:03.000 into like Warner, which is like Tom Petty and Prince 424 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.680 and then ultimately Reprise, which was like kind of like 425 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.000 Green Day and Lincoln Park and Mike Cam and they 426 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.799 used and stuff, and so we met with a lot 427 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:16.680 of A and R guys. But Craig Aaronson came to 428 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:20.880 one of our shows at a venue you've probably played 429 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.920 out a billion times, call the Office in London, Ontario 430 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:25.640 our ip. 431 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:29.880 Oh what really, it's finally Yeah, it was. That's one 432 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:31.799 of those venues that over the years, over and over 433 00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:33.880 I'd hear rumors that it was going to close, only 434 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.480 to get books to play another show there. But last 435 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.279 time I was in London

it actually truly was boarded 436 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:41.000 up and closed, although then I heard a rumor that 437 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.920 it's coming back, so oh wow, it may not be over. 438 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:47.759 It's hard to kill the venue like that. Yeah, I just. 439 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:52.240 Remember there were so many dicks in the backstage walls. 440 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.119 Like was the Bird of Dicks on the fridge there. 441 00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.119 I don't remember that specifically, but I remember something. I 442 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.279 remember the fridge and Dix, like, I remember the fridge 443 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.640 was a big part of it, and I just remember 444 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:05.799 there was like, wasn't. 445 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.200 There a big beam in the middle of the stage. Yeah, 446 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.680 I think on I feel like it was on my ship. 447 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:12.400 I was always on my side. Oh my god. 448 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:16.440 It was brutal anyway. I thought he just had a great, 449 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:18.079 fiery energy. 450 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:21.000 He was one of the few an ar guys that 451 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:25.319 wasn't trying to be cool. He wasn't you know, being like, yeah, 452 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.799 I party with the Strokes, you know, Like he was like, 453 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.160 I want to sign you guys if you want to win, 454 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:30.880 you know. 455 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.799 And I was starting to be hip to the like 456 00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.680 the reality that there's not a lot of reason to 457 00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:39.240 sign to a major just to be on a major, 458 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.480 because all you're doing is entering, you know, a more 459 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.680 competitive world on your label where you know, there's tons 460 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:48.480 of bands that were being signed that just you've never 461 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.400 heard of because they just they didn't get the attention 462 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:54.319 you know, that they would need in order to thrive 463 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:56.920 in that environment. So a lot of great bands get 464 00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.240 signed and then shelved so that was my main was 465 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.920 I just don't want to get shelved. And Craig Aronson 466 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.000 just seemed really hungry and like. 467 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:08.359 He was going to work his ass off. 468 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.720 So I was like, he's not like the hippist vibe, 469 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:14.920 but I feel like he's the kind of guy that 470 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.319 actually makes stuff happen. And then after we signed with him, 471 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.519 you know, he went on to sign so many huge 472 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.839 bands like Mike Cam and the Micam. Thing

was tough 473 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:29.440 actually because we were like his band, you know what 474 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:31.519 I mean, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, he 475 00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:36.400 was like at the drive in Jimmy World US and 476 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:38.279 then the Used and Mike Cam is like. 477 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:42.079 No, her parents adopt another kid. Yeah, that's what it felt. 478 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:46.119 He was like more popular than you. Yeah, who else? 479 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.640 He signed some really big bands, Brody Dull, what was 480 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.880 her band? The Distillers Distillers, And he would always get 481 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:55.279 me to like get on the phone with bands he 482 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:58.279 was courting and be like, yeah, he's awesome, Like you know, 483 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.000 and I wasn't going to stab him in the back. 484 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.559 It's like, yeah, he is really great, but I knew 485 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:09.200 it's like, ah, I'm like helping this new entity, like 486 00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:10.400 take attention. 487 00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:12.319 Away from us at the label. You know, yeah, but 488 00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.240 that's that's what you know, you sign up for. 489 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.720 And I wasn't going to like change my values to 490 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:23.599 become like all shitty basically. So, but in retrospect, I 491 00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.759 do feel like we could have maybe have been more assertive, 492 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.400 Like it took me decades and decades to to figure 493 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.400 out how to be more assertive, you know, stuff Like 494 00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.359 I remember on our website, they're like all these on 495 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:39.279 every page, there's ads to buy ring tones, and I was. 496 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.400 Like, no ring tones on the website. 497 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:44.720 Like, oh yeah, don't okay, don't worry, we'll fix that. 498 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:46.400 And then they never did, and then it was just 499 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.599 like we're just like a ring tone band now, Like 500 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:51.839 what what a moment that was? Yeah, for I was 501 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.000 gonna say for people that don't know, that was a 502 00:26:54.039 --> 00:26:57.640 big thing for a while, was you know, records, people 503 00:26:57.640 --> 00:26:59.000 are buying records. 504 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.319 So you got to make money selling ring tones. 505 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.759 Like, no, we're going to make money from at least 506 00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:09.480 back then playing live shows, and you guys are going 507 00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:12.160 to make money from ring tones, so don't like tarnish 508 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:12.599 our look. 509 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:18.799 You know, it's a perfect metaphor for the downsides of 510 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:22.559 the major label system where they just they just look 511 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:24.559 frantically around and they see a lot of people have 512 00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:27.200 cell phones now and they think, okay, great, we'll just 513 00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:29.799 sell the music into that. And then you know, and 514 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:32.240 that's that's the kind of short sightedness that leads us 515 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:34.640 to the place where we are currently. Yeah. 516 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.880 Yeah, Well it was a short sighted world because all 517 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.279 these big labels were starting to merge more and you 518 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:44.759 were seeing a lot of people jump ship. I mean eventually, 519 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.279 like I'll get back to the story, but we did 520 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.680 make Up The Breakdown was re released on Sire and 521 00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:54.119 so that helped explode the ban and then we also 522 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.359 did Elevator and Happiness Limited. But by the time we 523 00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.960 put out our third record, I know it's major label, 524 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:02.000 maybe so't I won't talk about it too much, but 525 00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.200 I just noticed. Yeah, it was like all about T 526 00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:09.440 shirts and ring tones and all the people that were 527 00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:13.960 responsible for helping us, you know, build the band up. 528 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:16.640 Like we've we had an awesome team. 529 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:21.519 I love Brian Bumberry, our press guy, and Lynn McDonald 530 00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:24.839 and like I won't list all the names, and like 531 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:29.599 Phil Costello, but like and we just had so this 532 00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:33.160 like team of people that had this backstory of insane 533 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:36.519 success for decades, like they knew the system, and then 534 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:38.880 one day it was just sort of like, oh yeah, 535 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:43.119 now you're just getting interns responding to you. And then 536 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.720 you're going to the office and where there used to 537 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.200 be a huge hot at Heat banner and like tons 538 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.079 of gold records, now it's just like T shirts. I 539 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:53.759 was like, oh no, Like I could just feel it 540 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:56.440 slipping away, and like all the labels were kind of merging, 541 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.559 and yeah, I think everyone panicked. And then the next 542 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:04.839 big thing after ringtones and merch was getting bands to 543 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.599 like renegotiate their deals to do like three sixty deals, 544 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.000 which just sort of means like they can

take money 545 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:13.839 from all different sides of your band. 546 00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:16.119 Now they can make money off your touring as well 547 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:16.440 as you. 548 00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.559 Yeah, well, and that's the thing, Like you sign. So 549 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.880 what is like a booking agent gets ten ten percent, 550 00:29:24.279 --> 00:29:28.319 a manager gets fifteen percent, but of your gross. 551 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.599 It's gross they take they take it. Everyone takes or 552 00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:33.640 our team always took, like they all take it each 553 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:35.599 They go back to the very beginning of how much 554 00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:37.680 you made on that show. So the agent takes his 555 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.279 ten percent of your ten thousand dollars and the manager 556 00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.519 takes his fifteen percent of your ten thousand dollars and 557 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:43.119 so on, and. 558 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:46.559 Then you pay for all the expenses. Yeah, I'm getting 559 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.759 to the show and rehearsing and all this stuff. So 560 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:55.160 like what you're left over with is it's actually shockingly low. 561 00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.799 So to then tell the bands like, oh, and we're 562 00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:01.200 also going to take money from your T shirt sales 563 00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.680 and stuff, it's like, like, I get it. Everyone's got 564 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:08.480 to eat, but ultimately, like bands are not eating just 565 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:11.759 so a CEO can, yet you know, hundreds of millions 566 00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:12.200 of dollars. 567 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.359 Like it's I'm anti greed. 568 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.839 I'm like, I think it should be illegal to be 569 00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:20.319 a billionaire. I think as a planet or so rich, 570 00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:22.119 and yet everyone is so poor. 571 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:25.279 And yeah, I won't get into it, but it's like 572 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.400 that rot is kind of if you follow the thread 573 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:30.200 of anything you talk about, if you're talking about like 574 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:34.599 the music industry or any industry, you pull the thread 575 00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:36.359 long enough and you wind up at exactly what you're 576 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.160 talking about. It's like, oh, yeah, right, that's what's at 577 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:39.759 the center of all of this. Fucking it all up 578 00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:40.960 is just this like cancer. 579 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:43.519 Yeah, dude, if you pull the thread long enough, that's 580 00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:44.599 a great way to put it. 581 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:45.799 Yeah, it's true. 582 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:51.000 Well I should also say, before we were on Craig's radar, 583 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.200 I actually got a phone call from Andy Olifant, who 584 00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:59.319 is doctor Tim Olifant's brother, and he was working at 585 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.200 Warner Brothers in an r and he just called me 586 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.680 out of the blue, and we four of us lived 587 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.559 in this two bedroom apartment and he's like. 588 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:09.640 This is Andy Olafont from Warner Brothers. It's like, how 589 00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:10.480 do you get my number? 590 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:13.839 He's like, you have it on your website. 591 00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:14.440 I guess I do. 592 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.920 And yeah, he actually was like the first one that 593 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:21.599 reached out, and then Craig kind of like swooped in 594 00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:23.839 and grabbed us from him. So I got to give 595 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.440 credit he was first to arrive. But I think we 596 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.759 went with Craig just because, yeah, we had such a 597 00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:32.720 big fear of being shelved that we were like technically 598 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:33.799 Craig's high up. 599 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:35.119 The totem pole, so we went with him. 600 00:31:35.240 --> 00:31:37.839 And then yeah, it was like we were still touring 601 00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:41.359 all the time, playing you know, literally like sometimes to 602 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:44.440 seven people a night in Boise, Idaho, and like you know, 603 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.680 just slogging away playing like arcades and sleeping on floors 604 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:53.000 and doing all that stuff, and then once we signed 605 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:56.039 with Warner they basically we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, 606 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.200 we really sold record, Like, let's put out the new one. 607 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.960 They're like, well, we're going to re do the radio 608 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:04.480 campaign because we had already done a full campaign with 609 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.119 Subpop and I thought it, you know, it went really well. 610 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:11.240 But they basically were like, we're going to just do 611 00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:15.119 the entire album cycle again from scratch. So we kind 612 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.799 of toured for that record for two album cycles for 613 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:23.480 one record, and it was it was definitely tough on morale. 614 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:27.039 Like you know, like I remember thinking, and I've said 615 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.480 this for years, you should never tour more than two 616 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:33.880 months because I've noticed most bands that break up or 617 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:36.440 have a member quit, it's it's after like that three 618 00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:39.720 months mark, because you just like you just lose your mind. 619

00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:42.000 You know, you're gone. I always I could figure it. 620 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:44.720 It's like, Okay, the first week is easy and fun 621 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.480 and weird, and the second week can be tough, and 622 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:49.519 the third week sometimes you really hit a wall. But 623 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:51.519 if you blast through the third week, the fourth and 624 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:53.640 fifth weeks are actually kind of the best weeks because 625 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.960 you're just more tour than man. But if you might go. 626 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:02.960 PTSD when we were talking about these these kind of numbers. 627 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:05.839 Yeah, it just makes you crazy. Yeah. 628 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.720 I remember once we got asked to do Jules Holland, 629 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:13.039 which is like one of those shows in the UK. 630 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.480 I know, I'm sure you know this, but just for 631 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.119 the listeners, it's one of those shows at least at 632 00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:21.720 that time, could really break a band. Like remember Warner 633 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:25.079 UK was like, it's the equivalent to playing SNL, Like 634 00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:30.559 it's it's insane. And then Dante, our guitar player, he 635 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.759 was so burnt out that he refused to do it, 636 00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:36.759 just would not do it. And they were like what 637 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:39.079 because it would have been like at the end of 638 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.839 like a three month tour, we'd fly home and then 639 00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:42.799 we'd have to fly. 640 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:46.039 Back like the next day or something like ridiculous. 641 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:50.759 I was just like, you have to say yes to everything, stupidly, 642 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:52.799 but that has been most of my life. 643 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.359 Well that's and that's how they make it seem. When 644 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:59.839 you're especially in the major like the bigger industry world, 645 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.559 it's a hard sell and it's like listen, man, these 646 00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.319 opportunities don't come along every day and if you do this, 647 00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:07.640 you can get to X and if you don't do this. 648 00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.559 The unspoken rest of it is like there's another band 649 00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.039 that will Yeah, exactly exactly. 650 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.719 It's really you just have to think the more the 651 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:18.360 more people want your job, the more competition there is. 652 00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:21.159 So but I don't know, it's hard to it's easy 653 00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.119 to say, like in retrospect, like I should have done 654 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:25.239 this or whatever. You know, I just kind of went 655 00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:27.800 where the wind blew me, and I did have. I 656 00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:33.079 had a burning drive to not have to work a 657 00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:36.679 regular job anymore because I was working, like I was 658 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.840 going to school and I was in bands, and I 659 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.840 was working like four different odd jobs throughout the week, 660 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:45.079 and like I was just like, oh, man, if I 661 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:49.960 it's somehow justified dropping out of university because and I 662 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:54.599 also like I didn't discover that I'm like ADHD until 663 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.280 I was like forty, and so I found like I 664 00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:00.320 was just plugging away in university, trying to make something 665 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:03.599 of myself, and I just found it so hard. And 666 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:07.239 I realized ages later, like, oh, I'm an audio learner, 667 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.800 Like when I hear something, it's in my brain for good. 668 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:13.599 I never forget it. When I read something, I cannot 669 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:14.719 get through a paragraph. 670 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:17.079 It's so weird. So I was just. 671 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:19.400 Really struggling, and I was just praying that I would 672 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.119 have an excuse to drop out of school. And so yeah, 673 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.400 I think I was just driven to do whatever it takes. 674 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:28.679 And then I notice, I think in each band, like 675 00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.239 you start off and you have sort of a shared 676 00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.760 goal of what your idea of success is, and then 677 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:37.880 as you get more and more success, if you do 678 00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.079 get more and more success, you may actually like hit 679 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:46.000 certain thresholds or milestones where people go, this is more 680 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:46.880 than I ever. 681 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.400 Thought we could achieve or I would achieve. 682 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:52.920 And then anything above that is just sort of life 683 00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:53.920 cash to blow. 684 00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:56.239 You know. It's just like ah, like we. 685 00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:58.440 Signed to Warner, We're on the cover of Enemy, Like 686 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.280 I'm good for life. Whereas I was kind of the 687 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:05.639 one guy that was like, this is just going to 688 00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:07.880 be a chapter of our lives. But we got to 689 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.280 like work hard to like sort of set ourselves up 690 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.920 to sort of transition and grow and evolve as a band. 691 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:16.199 But I think we all sort of hit different walls 692 00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:18.239 where

we were like, you know what, this is more 693 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:20.960 than I expected, So I'm good now. And I think 694 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:24.239 that was when Dante basically was like he quit the band. 695 00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.920 He wouldn't do Jules Holland and that was after three 696 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.679 months of tour. And yeah, that's my roundabout way of 697 00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:33.480 saying tour smart. 698 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:38.079 Tour smart. We used to always harangue our agent to 699 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.199 come on the road with us on one of the 700 00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:42.079 tours he booked, to be like, do you you need 701 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:44.320 to see what this drive is? When it's not on 702 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.679 a map on the screen of your computer. You need 703 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:49.320 to feel every mile of it in the van. You 704 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:52.159 have to wake up at five am and get breakfasted 705 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.360 a close McDonald's before you go on it for loading 706 00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:58.480 and sound checked. It's starts an hour before you get there. 707 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:02.000 You need to sleep on your shoes in an airport 708 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.360 or on a van bench. And then the whole time 709 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.960 you're sleeping, you smell something you don't know what it is, 710 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:11.159 and you're having dreams about this awful smell and then 711 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:14.760 you realize like someone's feet were just, you know, right 712 00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:17.440 in front of your nose for like the last four hours. 713 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.159 It's a weird lifestyle, but when you're young, it's it's 714 00:37:21.400 --> 00:37:23.800 chill and it is romantic. I mean, I'm sure there's 715 00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:28.320 people listening to this, who are you know, swooning with 716 00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:31.440 desire for that, for that exact life that we're so 717 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.599 glibly talking shit about. And I would have been one 718 00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:34.800 of them. 719 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:36.360 You know, if you could port this back in time 720 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:38.039 to seventeen year old Graham, I would have felt that 721 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:39.800 way too. But then you do it, you know, that's 722 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:53.039 the way it goes. I do want to talk about 723 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:56.360 making Elevator, which is the major label debut to me, 724 00:37:56.480 --> 00:37:59.400 because you made it with like with major label dollars 725 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:01.239 and with the you knew you were on a major 726 00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:04.199 label making this record for them, and so did it 727 00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.199 feel higher stakes to you? And did the label or 728 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:12.159 anyone on your team communicate that it was higher stakes 729 00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.199 to you as as you decamped to La to make 730 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:16.719 the record, right? Yeah? 731 00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:21.239 Yeah, Oh it was massively different. It was completely different. 732 00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:25.079 On one hand, we were kind of like we were wondering, like, oh, 733 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:29.639 do we go do we lean into songwriting more or 734 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:32.920 do we kind of flip it and actually go more 735 00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.400 back to our punk roots because initially we were kind 736 00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:38.480 of like the spazy synth band. 737 00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:41.360 Yeah, maybe that word's not PC. 738 00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.679 It just dawned on me that that was a word 739 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:46.760 that you would use to describe synth punk back in the. 740 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.480 Yeah, that's like in pitchwork reviews of YATS Records. But 741 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.000 you're right, I don't know either. Okay, well, I'm sure 742 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.440 the listeners will fill us in. We want to learn 743 00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:56.679 and we want to improve. 744 00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:00.400 I'm open. I'm open anyway. So, yeah, we were do 745 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:03.239 we go kind of more punk? At the same time, 746 00:39:03.320 --> 00:39:08.320 there was a backdrop of Paul and I having an 747 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.920 obsession with the Beatles since day one, Like the origins 748 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:15.280 of Hottite Heat was sort of based in like San 749 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.280 Diego synth punk and just kind of diy like scrappy 750 00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:24.760 punk vibes. But then also there's a period when every 751 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.079 musician gets into the Beatles and it's just like this 752 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:31.480 glorious apter. And yeah, like we were just sort of 753 00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:33.159 discovering like, oh, we're not. 754 00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:35.119 That different from the Beatles. 755 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:37.960 You know, it's not like there's punk music and then 756 00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.199 there's normal person music. 757 00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:41.360 It's like you can kind of intersect. 758 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:47.559 Actually, and I was really interested in melody and yeah, 759 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.119 and I always sort of had like bedroom recording projects 760 00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:53.639 that I would record under my duvet so my you know, 761 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:57.039 roommates wouldn't hear me attempting to sing. And I just 762 00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.440 I've always loved kind of just melodic music and stuff, 763 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:03.400 and then Paul was getting more and more into the Beatles, 764 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.840 and then when we got Dante to join the band, 765 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:08.840 he was really into

the Beatles too, And so I 766 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:13.800 would say Elevator was peek us agreeing that the Beatles 767 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:18.480 are a great reference. But we always also had Dustin, 768 00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.320 who was he would kind of like had to say 769 00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.920 he hated the Beatles because he was just like, there's 770 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:25.840 too much Beatles talk, like this is bullshit. 771 00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.880 So he was more into like underground hip hop, and 772 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:31.320 that just sounds like a bass player who didn't want 773 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:35.400 to have to play complicated McCartney esque walking basslines across 774 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:35.960 every song. 775 00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:38.519 Oh yeah, And he's one of those guys that like 776 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.719 he's so punk, like he's punk to himself by accident, 777 00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:46.559 like like he's like, fuck you pigs like to like me, 778 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:50.599 and I'm like, dude, you know, like I'm just I'm 779 00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:52.880 just saying, let's just try like why why don't we 780 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:56.480 try a harmony? I don't know, but no, it's cool. 781 00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:01.440 He's he's read anyway. So we never consider ourselves songwriters 782 00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:04.280 or ear least I didn't. Maybe Dante did, maybe Paul did. 783 00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:07.199 But I was sort of just like I'm a creative person. 784 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.760 I do creative stuff, like I'm in bands, but I 785 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:12.119 also do all these other things. So so that was 786 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:13.679 the first time I had to sort of be like, 787 00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:16.679 I guess I'm a songwriter because I couldn't just show 788 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.679 up and assume, you know, like make up the breakdown. 789 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.519 I was just showing up with lyrics on a napkin 790 00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:24.920 that I wrote on the ferry, and I was just like, 791 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:26.840 I don't know, like I've got a million things on 792 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.400 the go, like whatever, you know, this time it was 793 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:31.920 sort of like these have to be actually kind of good. 794 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:34.320 So I remember it was the first time I really 795 00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:38.400 kind of worked on lyrics, and I was like I 796 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:42.320 didn't know what my brand was, what my identity was, 797 00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:46.599 Like I'd never written consciously before, and I kind of 798 00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:51.400 like struggled like relearning what I used to do instinctively 799 00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:54.320 for Elevator and Happiness Limited. I was sort of trying 800 00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:58.360 to like reverse engineer what came so naturally in all 801 00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.400 my other bands for years. Now I'm in a place 802 00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:04.960 where I just do whatever I feel like I trust 803 00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.800 my instincts creatively, like I know there's zero concern. 804 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:11.320 Like is this whack. I don't ask if it's whack. 805 00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:14.239 By the time, like I type it out and edit 806 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.760 it and sing it and edit that and then change 807 00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:20.239 it and re sing it and then comp it and 808 00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.119 then mix it. By the end of that process, I 809 00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.599 guarantee it's going to be a genuine thing from Steve. 810 00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:29.079 Whereas at the time, I was like, I guess, like 811 00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:31.079 I have to like pretend I'm a songwriter. 812 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:31.679 I don't know. 813 00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:34.679 Like it was really really weird, and all of a sudden, 814 00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:37.280 you know, we're we're recording at sound City and we're 815 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.000 doing pre production in the same room where they did 816 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:43.519 Rage Against the Machines pre production, and we're like rehearsing 817 00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:47.159 like in a room next door is like Rob Zombie 818 00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:50.880 and Elvis Costello's band is next door, and like the. 819 00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:53.519 LA thing too is such a We went and made 820 00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:55.199 our We were never on a major, but we were 821 00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:57.119 like on an almost We were mom and Pop, which 822 00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:58.639 is like one of those sort of almost majors. 823 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:01.320 Yeah, I felt like, you guys want to major Like 824 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:05.159 that's basically it's got world worldwide reach, doesn't it. 825 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:07.440 It just didn't have shareholders. It was like a privately 826 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.440 owned record label, so it was like literally independent, but 827 00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.719 everyone that worked there was a major person, like a 828 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:15.719 Goldie who worked at Sire for a while. I don't 829 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:17.719 know if you guys ever cross paths with Michael Goldstone, 830 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:20.960 but he was like that present head president whatever of 831 00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:23.920 Mom and Pop. Oh crazy, okay, But we went to 832 00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:26.880 La to make that record, and there's like that whole 833 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:29.440 other layer because you're already more self conscious, and then 834 00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:31.719 you're doubly self conscious, like oh and you know who 835 00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:34.199 else has trod these dirty carpets. 836 00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:37.199 It's the red old jellibeppers. Yeah, they made everyone a 837 00:43:37.199 -->

00:43:40.039 lot of money. Yeah, totally, there's so much of that. 838 00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:44.599 Everyone's got a crazy story about you know, insert person here. 839 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:48.119 And I try and like I actually like on when 840 00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:50.400 I do podcasts like this, like I'll try and if 841 00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:53.440 I can think to tell a bit of like a 842 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:56.960 name droppy story, I'll do it sometimes. 843 00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.159 Because I don't. I don't really give a shit. People 844 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:02.880 love it. People eat up online. Well, even like. 845 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.039 Ryan, like Ryan from Mounts, Like he'll mention somebody's name 846 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:09.880 and I'll be like, oh, yeah, you know, I don't 847 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:10.360 out with him. 848 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:12.639 Once He's like, why have you never told me? I'm 849 00:44:12.679 --> 00:44:13.360 like I don't know. 850 00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:18.519 It's like famous people to me are damaged souls that 851 00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:22.280 are just like trying to cope with their their narcissism, 852 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:24.800 you know, like the best they know how you know, 853 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:28.760 It's like it's they're not necessarily better people. In fact, 854 00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:32.239 they're usually way more screwed up. And I don't want 855 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:34.400 to meet my idols. Like Morrisey came to our show 856 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.039 once Wow in La in two thousand and five. 857 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.079 It was like right after we finished Elevator, they were like. 858 00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:42.840 Okay, first show with the tour, We're going to do 859 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:45.639 it on the sunset strip and we're going to film 860 00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:47.199 it and it's going to come out as like a 861 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:50.840 DVD in the special edition of the album. And it's like, 862 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.840 all of a sudden, there's so much pressure around this show, 863 00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:56.039 and everyone knows that if you're in a band, like 864 00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:59.440 you don't get good till the third show minimum, you know. 865 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:01.960 Another there's like a crane there with a cameraman on 866 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.159 it in the middle of the stage. You're like just 867 00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:05.119 a normal yeah. 868 00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:08.320 And we just spent like months fine tuning this like 869 00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:11.719 what felt like a flawless album that before that, we 870 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:16.599 spent months demoing and recording those demos and mixing those 871 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:20.039 demos and redoing the demos and then remixing those demos 872 00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:22.880 and like, and like I was, like, you know, hanging 873 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.079 out

was like Rick Rubin and talking about the bridge 874 00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:29.920 and and stuff and like, and then all of a sudden, 875 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.679 the first thing people are going to hear is show 876 00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:36.239 one after not having played live for months and months 877 00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:39.079 and months, and you're sending that out, like and the 878 00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:42.199 difference in getting on a stage and just playing I 879 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:44.360 remember that feeling of like, oh, we just we had 880 00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:47.559 limitless time basically to tinker with these songs and be 881 00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:50.000 there exploded in every direction, and you're just in. 882 00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:52.400 The middle of it, moving it around, and then you 883 00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:56.480 go on stage and you just play it and it's over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 884 00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:57.639 it's so it's so weird. 885 00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.440 I think that's part of part of being in a band, 886 00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:02.719 like part of the experience of the journey. 887 00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.880 The journey shot is. 888 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:08.119 Coming to grips with the fact that more and more 889 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.159 you learn how to make a recorded version of a 890 00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:14.519 song so impactful, and you just can spend like days 891 00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:18.000 and weeks on just one song, fine tuning it, and 892 00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:20.519 then you play it live and it's never going to 893 00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:23.480 be as impactful to you. To other people, it might 894 00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:26.519 be just as impactful or even more impactful, and they 895 00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:29.880 might hear a shitty live recording and that's leagues worse 896 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.079 than the recorded version. 897 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:32.880 But to you, like. 898 00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:35.920 You have to get over the fact that you're never 899 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:38.760 going to think of your own live music as being 900 00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:43.159 that great ever again, unless it's in retrospect, you know, 901 00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:46.519 and you're like, wow, look at how I used to 902 00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:47.239 be good looking. 903 00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:50.920 Damn Ah, we were cool. 904 00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:53.320 Actually I could really move my arms above my head, 905 00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:57.880 I know, Like I was just I was so insecure 906 00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:03.280 about not being as good live as on recording. But 907 00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:06.440 I know, like when I see footage now, my buddy 908 00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.239 forced me to watch our set at Glastonbury and like 909 00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:12.639 I think this was like two thousand and five or something, 910 00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:16.599 and it was like it was great,

Like I and 911 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:19.920 I remember I could not enjoy myself like after the 912 00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:23.519 show or anything, because I was so hard on myself 913 00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.000 by like all the things I did wrong or I 914 00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:26.840 could have done better. 915 00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:28.880 And I wish I could go back and. 916 00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.760 Just be like it's chill, dude, like you're killing it. 917 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:35.679 It's all good, you know. But yeah, like we we 918 00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:38.559 met with a bunch of people that wanted to do 919 00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:41.360 the record. We met with like a ton of big people, 920 00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:43.920 and then we finally were like, okay, we're going to 921 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:46.719 do it with Rick Rubin, and then he was like, okay, 922 00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:48.639 you got to get a BlackBerry because we're going to 923 00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:49.880 go back and forth and stuff. 924 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:51.519 I was like, okay, I'm getting a BlackBerry. 925 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:54.440 And I would be like on the ferry because I 926 00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:57.800 was We were making the record in Victoria in Shawnagan, 927 00:47:58.000 --> 00:48:01.039 like and Dante's barring where that's where we jam. But 928 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.039 then I had moved to Vancouver, and so I was 929 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:08.559 like taking the ferry from Vancouver to Victoria constantly while 930 00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:11.920 trying to make this record, and I was losing reception 931 00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:14.079 and like being on the top of the ferry deck 932 00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:16.800 like in the rain, just being like hello, can you 933 00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:19.480 hear me? Like it was reception was such a constant 934 00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:21.840 thing because you only get a small window with him 935 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.800 each day, and eventually it was just such a nightmare. 936 00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:28.840 And I competing with all his other projects, like he 937 00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:32.760 was doing the Weezerdgreen album and he was saying so 938 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:35.039 many big records at the time, and then I remember 939 00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:37.840 hearing he took on shit Kira, and I was like. 940 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.760 Okay, this is ridiculous, Like wait, this record's never going 941 00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:41.280 to come out. 942 00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:46.719 And I remember International Noise Conspiracy before that were refused. 943 00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:49.199 They were doing their record with him at the same time. 944 00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:51.199 I was like, man, they've been working on that with 945 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.800 him for quite a while. And I was still in 946 00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:56.599 the mentality like if you're gone for a couple of years, 947 00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:58.480 like you're kind of toast, you know. And we had 948 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.480 already done full albums for make Up the Breakdown, for 949 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:04.199 sup Pop and Warner, so we were like, we need this. 950 00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:05.119 Album to come out soon. 951 00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:09.039 So we went with Dave Sardy because he had he 952 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:13.360 was one of Rick's like top engineers who had started 953 00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.639 producing and went on to do tons of great stuff. 954 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.159 And he had just done the rat for the Walkman, 955 00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.280 which was like one of the best songs of all time. 956 00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:25.079 That's the that's one of the best records of all time. 957 00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:28.760 That's really the one that changed the whole It felt 958 00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:30.679 like it changed the game when I when I first 959 00:49:30.719 --> 00:49:32.800 heard that song, I guess I'm a little a bit 960 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:34.519 younger than you guys. I was in high school when 961 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:36.880 that song came out, and we were all just like, oh, okay, 962 00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:40.079 there's a different thing you can do, there's another level 963 00:49:40.280 --> 00:50:05.880 that we need to start thinking about trying to access. 964 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:11.320 They were a big influence of mine. Yeah, I heard 965 00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:13.920 that listening to Elevator In particular, I feel like, well, 966 00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:17.320 you and Hamilton have like singing. Your voices don't sound 967 00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:20.480 the same like Tonally, but something about the way that 968 00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:23.440 you ride the melodies felt really resonant to me. 969 00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:27.840 Ah fun Well, I mean that band was kind of 970 00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:32.639 like Jonathan fire Reader plus Hamilton minus Stewart. But I 971 00:50:32.679 --> 00:50:35.320 felt like he was trying to sing like Jonathan fire Reader. 972 00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:40.119 And then I was we were big Jonathan fire Reator fans, and. 973 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:41.760 They had when we did. 974 00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.519 When we first came out, they had just put out 975 00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:49.679 two songs online, wake Up and what's their first big. 976 00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:53.079 Hit, I'm a Modern Man. We've Been Had, We've Been Had? Yeah, 977 00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:56.800 another great song? Oh, the best song ever? Anyway. 978 00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:58.639 Yeah, I was obsessed with them, So that's why we 979 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.639 were kind of like, let's let's go with Dave Sarti actually, 980 00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:03.719 just because we love the Walkman so much. 981 00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:06.760 And where was I going with that? Oh? Yeah, So 982 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:08.519 Dave Sarti was like,

okay, so. 983 00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:11.239 We're doing it in Sound City, and which I didn't 984 00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:14.519 realize is like one of the most legendary studios, you know, 985 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:15.639 and we're going to. 986 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:16.559 Get the drum doctor. 987 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:18.800 The drum doctor is the guy that tunes the drums 988 00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:20.800 for Red Hot Chili Peppers on every album. 989 00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:22.679 Yeah, yeah, it was. 990 00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:26.239 And then like I remember singing in the Little Booth. 991 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:28.880 I think I still have my little crappy Yeah. Oh yeah, 992 00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.559 I was on my role in Phantom and I'm just 993 00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:36.320 like playing along well, Paul drums and there's doodles all 994 00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:38.360 over the wall and it was all of like Tom 995 00:51:38.400 --> 00:51:41.800 Petty's drawings from when he did wallflowers and stuff like that. 996 00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:44.760 You know, you just saw these little sort of like, oh, 997 00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:47.519 you're doing a big record now. And then I remember 998 00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:51.480 we were mixing it and we were obsessed with what 999 00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:51.760 was it? 1000 00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:55.400 The Last the Last Waltz with like Robbie. 1001 00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:59.719 Robertson and the band and Neil Young, who famously insisted 1002 00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:02.280 that they at it the chunk of cocaine that was 1003 00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:04.039 in his nose out of the film. 1004 00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:07.880 Very early application of digital effects in film, apparently. Yeah, 1005 00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:12.440 one of the first uses of rotoscoping was to decoch Yeah, 1006 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:17.559 oh my gosh. Innovation in every Field Man Now final cut. 1007 00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:19.719 You don't even need a green screen. I think there's 1008 00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:23.519 a TikTok filter that'll just yeah, take the cocaine right 1009 00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:25.159 out or put it there, you know. If you want 1010 00:52:25.159 --> 00:52:26.960 to look cooler than you are, if you want to 1011 00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:28.639 look more like Neil Young, you can just get the 1012 00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:29.280 filter on it. 1013 00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:33.039 Oh anyway, so uh oh yeah, And then like we're 1014 00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:38.079 watching Last Walts obsessively and then Robbie Robertson like comes 1015 00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:39.079 into the studio. 1016 00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:43.079 He's just like, oh hey man, Like we're just like, 1017 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.559 oh cool. I ain't know Robbie Robertson. 1018 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:49.159 Like, and then the band went home and I stayed, 1019 00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.920 I guess for the last portion of mixing it with Dave, 1020 00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:57.599 and he was starting a record with Oasis, like literally the. 1021 00:52:57.679 --> 00:52:58.559 Same night we were. 1022 00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:02.360 I was finishing with him, and then Oasis comes into 1023 00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:05.880 the studio right as I'm wrapping up, and then Noel 1024 00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:07.840 Gallagher he goes. 1025 00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:11.639 You go fucking great, ham Man. I can't do his 1026 00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:12.679 accent properly. 1027 00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.400 But and then they were like, well, yeah, we're starting, 1028 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:18.280 we're starting our record. Should you should hang out? And 1029 00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.519 again I was just like what do I have to offer? Like, 1030 00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.639 I'm just like some random dudes I was like, nah, 1031 00:53:24.639 --> 00:53:27.400 it's cool. So I just like probably went to like 1032 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.239 Trader Joe's and got like a microwave meal from my 1033 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:31.320 hotel room or something. 1034 00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:31.599 You know. 1035 00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:34.199 The next day, Dave is like, dude, you should have 1036 00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:38.320 hung out because Ringo's son was drumming for them at 1037 00:53:38.320 --> 00:53:41.039 the time. And I was like geek to meet him. Sure, 1038 00:53:41.400 --> 00:53:43.000 And then Dave the next it's like, you should have 1039 00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:47.039 hung out. We were tracking bass and Paul McCartney came 1040 00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:50.920 to the studio and hung out the whole session. I 1041 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.599 was like, ah, I'm okay, yeah, you got me. I 1042 00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:56.400 should have schmoozed. I should have stayed. 1043 00:53:56.480 --> 00:54:11.920 But whatever, hindsight is always twenty twenty. What was the 1044 00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:17.000 vibe with like singles and the pre production and the 1045 00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:19.119 you know, the because once you're on a major to 1046 00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:22.960 some degree, you're plugged into like the hit factory, and 1047 00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:25.239 they really what they really want is for you to 1048 00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:28.400 write an undeniable, smash it single that they can everyone can. 1049 00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:31.400 I know, I know, yeah, it was. 1050 00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:35.440 It was tough because there wasn't really like an obvious 1051 00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.360 single on the record, even though all of it feels 1052 00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.480 sort of like they all could have been singles, but 1053 00:54:41.079 --> 00:54:44.360 there wasn't one that was the one. I think they 1054 00:54:44.400 --> 00:55:01.119 wanted it to be you Owe Me and I Owe You, 1055 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:06.639 and I really. 1056 00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:08.760 Did not want that one to be the single. 1057 00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:11.400 I was

like, I kind of like when I made 1058 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:14.039 it as a demo, I was just you know, like 1059 00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:17.920 on a shitty piano. Like my problem back then was 1060 00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:21.039 I would I was really getting excited about recording the 1061 00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.880 demo process and stuff, so I would kind of make 1062 00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:27.159 my demos sound awesome. And so when you're going through 1063 00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:31.719 all these songs that are in consideration, like usually the 1064 00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:36.000 later ones that I had written because I had gotten 1065 00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:39.199 access to like a free copy of like Digital Performer 1066 00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:41.760 or something and I had just discovered compression or something, 1067 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.679 those were getting chosen for the record, and then when 1068 00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.480 recorded properly, I'm like, it's not hot at heat enough, 1069 00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:49.800 like we can't go with this one. 1070 00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:51.599 And they're like, what if we re record it. 1071 00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:55.000 So we were playing Atlanta or something, so they're like, 1072 00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:58.960 go take a day off re record I owe you, do. 1073 00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:01.199 It cool, and I was like, well, I need to 1074 00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:02.159 do it in a lower. 1075 00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.400 Key, a saying it too high, and so we did 1076 00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.800 that and it was actually a decent version of it, 1077 00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:12.599 and I was messaging with Butch Walker like whatever happened 1078 00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:15.239 to that that single? Because major labels will like just 1079 00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:17.920 throw like, oh we got a problem. I hear thirty 1080 00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:20.719 grand okay, and then they forget that, you know they 1081 00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.639 did it, and I said like, whatever happened? Like do 1082 00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:25.320 you have a copy of that? I'd love to hear it. 1083 00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:27.760 I remember thinking it was like it was way better, 1084 00:56:28.400 --> 00:56:30.880 and he's like, oh, I got burnt down in the 1085 00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:34.320 fires in LA recently. Yeah, so I don't have a copy. 1086 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:38.639 He doesn't have a copy anymore, but I wish I could. 1087 00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:41.400 Maybe I'll find it one day. I don't know anyway. 1088 00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:46.360 Oh And then at some point between make Up the 1089 00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:49.880 Breakdown and Elevator, they were like, we really like five 1090 00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:53.440 times out of one hundred from your EP, why don't 1091 00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:55.519 we re release I was like, no, there's no way 1092 00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:58.599 we can re release it unless and it was really 1093 00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:03.719 into Queens of Stone Age songs for the DAF and like, 1094 00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:05.920 unless we can record it with Eric Valentine, and they're 1095 00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:10.719 like done. So when we recorded it with Eric Valentine 1096 00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:13.719 and yeah, it was awesome, like it was, it was sweet, 1097 00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:15.239 But then we were like no, we still can't put 1098 00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:16.400 it out Okay, moving on. 1099 00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:20.599 It ended up coming out re release. 1100 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:25.760 On our third record on Mourner Unhappiness Limited, which is 1101 00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:30.800 also the same record where we had Abby Road the 1102 00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:37.360 Abbey Road Orchestra record full orchestral arrangements and you know, 1103 00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:41.519 recorded and everything for songs that we didn't even put 1104 00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:42.719 out on that. 1105 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:46.239 Record, like big label budgets man, shit. Yeah, yeah. 1106 00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:50.480 It was like literally hundreds of thousands of dollars per record. 1107 00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:54.039 And then eventually I just asked to leave the label 1108 00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:55.599 and I was like, I'm just going to teach myself 1109 00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:57.119 how to record, and I just want to put it 1110 00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:01.280 out myself, which is kind of stupid. 1111 00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.320 But but that's aged well because those budgets bands like 1112 00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:07.800 Hot Hot Heat and Tokyo Police Club don't typically get 1113 00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:09.880 hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown at them to make 1114 00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:12.440 records anymore. Oh, totally, not being able to do it 1115 00:58:12.440 --> 00:58:16.639 yourself is like future proofed you against the whole tides 1116 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:20.079 of bullshit that are sweeping in. Yeah, one hundred percent. 1117 00:58:20.199 --> 00:58:24.360 I think I just sort of trusted my instincts and 1118 00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:28.039 I didn't really know what I was doing, but I 1119 00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:30.320 just knew I could see the writing on the wall 1120 00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:33.480 while I could feel the tide changing. And this was 1121 00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:37.239 in two thousand and eight, and I was like, we 1122 00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:38.880 want to get off the label, we want to fire 1123 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:42.000 our manager, and I'm just going to read tape op 1124 00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:44.199 and figure out how to record us. And then we 1125 00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:46.679 did our next record, Future Reads, and we put it 1126 00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:51.039 out on dinal Loane, and it didn't get pushed nearly 1127 00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:53.639 as much, obviously because there isn't the budget. But I 1128 00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:55.960

would say the two best How to Eat records are 1129 00:58:56.000 --> 00:59:00.000 the last two, which were independent, and since then I've 1130 00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:03.119 made It's allowed me to make tons of records, like 1131 00:59:03.239 --> 00:59:08.519 I've done two with Mounties, two with fur Trade, left 1132 00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:11.920 Field Messiah is another project in mine. I'm sitting on 1133 00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.400 like a pile of my own solo stuff right now. 1134 00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:17.559 And then I've made probably like I don't know, like 1135 00:59:17.599 --> 00:59:19.119 twenty records for other people. 1136 00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:22.119 And it's like I realized, I like the process. I don't. 1137 00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:25.000 I'm not great at the business, I'm not great at 1138 00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:25.519 the promotion. 1139 00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:28.920 I'm not in love with the lifestyle of touring. You 1140 00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:32.079 can't keep doing it, Yeah, you got to find a 1141 00:59:32.119 --> 00:59:34.199 way to or unless you want to commit to being 1142 00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:35.719 on the road forever. If you're Bob Dylan and you 1143 00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:36.760 just want to be out there. 1144 00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:41.719 Some people have that, and you know, mad respect for them, 1145 00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:42.480 but I don't have that. 1146 00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:45.960 You know, where did you guys stay while you were 1147 00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:46.360 in La? 1148 00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:50.400 When we were in La for Elevator, we stayed at 1149 00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:54.400 the classic kind of long term hotel. 1150 00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:58.239 Oh what was it called? Are you asking because you 1151 00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:01.480 think maybe you stayed there? No, we always when we 1152 01:00:01.480 --> 01:00:03.559 were in LA for a long time, we'd like somehow 1153 01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:06.360 rent it was pre Airbnb, but we'd end up in 1154 01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:08.960 like weird houses that looked like they got used for 1155 01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:11.880 porno shoots, or like we once stayed for a month 1156 01:00:12.039 --> 01:00:16.079 at the Americana at brand like that outdoor mall had 1157 01:00:16.159 --> 01:00:20.840 condos upstairs where like they had the tallest Christmas tree 1158 01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:24.519 in America and an hourly fountain show and like fake 1159 01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:29.239 snow night. I know that place. Yeah, yeah, just incredibly 1160 01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:32.559 bizarre but perfect to be there, you know, just immersed 1161 01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:36.280 in whatever that is. Oh my gosh, but I think, yeah, 1162 01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:38.840 I was just going to say, going to La to 1163 01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:42.800 make a record, so much of it is like where 1164 01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:44.920 you are and how you get around. 1165 01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:47.679 Oh my god, yeah, one hundred percent, which is why 1166 01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:52.320 I like, for a while I lived there and I 1167 01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:54.440 I was like, someone at Warner was like, oh, I 1168 01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:56.400 have an extra place at this house in the hills. 1169 01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:58.159 So I was like living in the hills. 1170 01:00:58.159 --> 01:01:01.079 But just to like find parking is like the really 1171 01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:03.360 narrow and you have to like go down this windy 1172 01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:07.199 road just to get onto Sunset, and there's traffic just 1173 01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:09.519 and then if you miss the turnoff to the highway, 1174 01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:12.360 it's like you just added an hour. And so eventually 1175 01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:16.519 I ended up preferring to live in this shitty best 1176 01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:20.679 Western right beside a highway turnoff in Eagle Rock. 1177 01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:23.239 Oh yeah, Everyone's like, what are you doing in Eagle Rock. 1178 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:26.159 I'm like, cause I can like get onto the highway 1179 01:01:26.199 --> 01:01:29.679 and go wherever I need to go, like within one minute. 1180 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:32.480 Yeah, it's I tried. Last time we made a record there. 1181 01:01:33.039 --> 01:01:36.599 The studio was actually in Eagle Rock, and I was like, 1182 01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:39.480 I'm walking. I need this. We're in the studio every day. 1183 01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:41.519 This is a long It's you know, it was our 1184 01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:44.360 last record. It was the vibes were different. You know 1185 01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:46.960 what it's like to be in a later period band. Yeah. 1186 01:01:47.320 --> 01:01:49.679 I need for my sanity, I need to be able 1187 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:51.840 to walk under my own power, not to have to 1188 01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:54.119 get together with the other guys and all call an 1189 01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:57.639 uber together or whatever, and I forced myself to do 1190 01:01:57.679 --> 01:01:59.679 it every day, but it was just it was like 1191 01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:05.719 an hour and a half walk just in shadeless freeways shoulders. 1192 01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:09.199 Almost everyone looks at you like you're a complete maniac 1193 01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:10.920 for trying to do it. 1194 01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:15.800 Like walking anywhere in LA outside of like the you know, 1195 01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:21.079 the quaint neighborhood pockets. Yeah, you feel like you may 1196 01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:24.360 as well just be part of like a documentary about 1197 01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:27.159 like being homeless or something. Like it's just like you're 1198 01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:30.920 just because it's just like tumbleweeds going by, and there's 1199 01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:34.440 like dirt and crap everywhere, like and cars are just 1200 01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:36.679 zooming by and

honking at you, and like there's so 1201 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:40.599 much wealth discrepancies everywhere. Like that's what I don't understand 1202 01:02:40.639 --> 01:02:44.039 about LA is like you can have this high end 1203 01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:47.960 vehicle and you can be going from somewhere high end 1204 01:02:47.960 --> 01:02:50.320 to another place that's high end and doing it in 1205 01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.800 fancy clothes. But isn't it a vibe killed to be 1206 01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:58.559 part of such wealth inequality everywhere? You know what I mean? 1207 01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:01.199 Like I can't It's kind of like it feels like 1208 01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:04.239 climbing Everest or something it's like, yeah, you know, if 1209 01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:06.559 you want to achieve your goals, like you will walk 1210 01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:09.960 by people that are technically alive, but they are dying, 1211 01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:12.920 so you just have to ignore them. It's the lesser 1212 01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:16.400 of two evils if you want to achieve your goal. 1213 01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:19.920 So there we go. That is a very powerful metaphor 1214 01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:21.840 never thought about it in quite those terms. I like 1215 01:03:21.880 --> 01:03:24.360 how we have sort of had like threaded a brief 1216 01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:29.079 conversation about the poison of capitalism throughout our conversation about 1217 01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:30.760 the joys of major label living. 1218 01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:37.239 Well, it's we're living through the communication revolution, like the 1219 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:41.280 technology revolution. We're like from an era that was pre Internet, 1220 01:03:41.599 --> 01:03:46.039 mainly hanging out around and with people that have only 1221 01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:50.519 ever known the Internet, and we understand the old school 1222 01:03:50.679 --> 01:03:53.679 music industry, which will never be that way again, and 1223 01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:57.239 we adapted to the new music industry, which is now 1224 01:03:57.519 --> 01:03:58.360 totally changed. 1225 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:01.000 And we're witness we're. 1226 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:05.239 In the last year to two years before society as 1227 01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:09.960 we know it is just completely crumbles due to AI. 1228 01:04:11.039 --> 01:04:12.960 But at the same time, you know, I'm still watching 1229 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:15.639 Temptation Island, like you know some here and there. 1230 01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:20.400 Yeah, yes, that's well, it'll all we'll look back on 1231 01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:25.039 this time from somewhere and chuckle ruefully. I guess we'll 1232 01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:27.119 find out, and we are bringing this thing in for landing. 1233 01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:28.920 I promise you. I only have a couple more questions. 1234 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.199 Oh man, no, I'm the one guilty of derailing

us. 1235 01:04:33.039 --> 01:04:35.360 But yeah, sorry to get dark. I do have faith 1236 01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:40.840 that things will get so extreme for a minute, but 1237 01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:45.760 we will as a society rebel. There is like a 1238 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.159 way for us to all live a great life, and 1239 01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:52.639 AI and robotics could make life really wicked, so we 1240 01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:58.400 may live to see the benefits of an awesome period 1241 01:04:58.480 --> 01:04:59.239 of humanity. 1242 01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:02.320 Right, Like what the we should all be jumping around, 1243 01:05:02.440 --> 01:05:04.400 clapping and singing like we did it, we got there, 1244 01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:08.119 Goodbye Blue one day, and instead there's like seven assholes 1245 01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:09.800 who were just taking it all. 1246 01:05:10.239 --> 01:05:14.119 Their addicts there. They're greed. They're greed is an addiction, 1247 01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:17.320 just like social media. It is an addiction. I think 1248 01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:20.800 like we're still living in a world that was built 1249 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.119 by boomers, and boomers don't talk about feelings. They don't 1250 01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:29.039 talk about the generational trauma that's passed passed along to them. 1251 01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:35.239 Because each generation that doesn't dive into the their own 1252 01:05:35.280 --> 01:05:39.079 trauma issues passes it on to the next generation, but 1253 01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:42.519 it affects them even worse. And so like we're sort 1254 01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:45.320 of like just on the tip of the iceberg of 1255 01:05:45.440 --> 01:05:51.239 understanding human psychology, and it the stigma is still so insane, 1256 01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:55.000 Like I can't talk about it with most people my age, 1257 01:05:55.159 --> 01:05:57.800 People in their twenties, I find, are like down to 1258 01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:03.320 explore different topic of like the deep nuances of of 1259 01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:10.320 you know, narcissism versus borderline, versus antisocial versus a ADHD 1260 01:06:10.519 --> 01:06:15.159 versus AUDIHD, and you know, like all these different things. 1261 01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:19.639 Whereas the reason I bring that up is because the 1262 01:06:19.719 --> 01:06:24.400 world is run by people that are so mentally unwell, 1263 01:06:25.239 --> 01:06:29.760 and they're supported by people that don't understand that there's 1264 01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:33.280 things to look for that would indicate someone that is 1265 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:34.840 mentally unwell well. 1266 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:40.039 And it really, you know, that reactionary approach and that 1267 01:06:40.119 --> 01:06:43.559 like enabling approach does like I think I first learned 1268 01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:47.320 about that in a tangible way from watching people out 1269 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:50.079 on the road who for whatever reason shouldn't have been 1270 01:06:50.079 --> 01:06:52.360 on the road and should have been getting help for 1271 01:06:52.519 --> 01:06:54.880 their health or their mental health or their addictions or 1272 01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:57.920 all of the above, and all the people who should 1273 01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:01.519 have been supporting them were instead just getting them to 1274 01:07:01.559 --> 01:07:03.920 the next show, into the next show, into the next show. Yes, 1275 01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:07.519 that's what kept the wheels of the whole industry turning. 1276 01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:09.800 And it's been that way, you know, not to absolve 1277 01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:13.239 everyone of their own sins, but like it's so enabling 1278 01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:17.320 and disastrous, and that's the music industry is not the 1279 01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:21.079 worst front in that war, but it's where I've seen 1280 01:07:21.119 --> 01:07:24.400 it happen with my own eyes, and it is is disquieting. 1281 01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:28.920 Oh man, addiction and mental health. 1282 01:07:29.320 --> 01:07:30.920 You don't get to a point where, like you're on 1283 01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:34.400 stage in front of thousands of people every night unless 1284 01:07:34.840 --> 01:07:37.599 there's something a bit messed up in your head that 1285 01:07:37.639 --> 01:07:41.599 makes you need that sort of validation. And so that's 1286 01:07:41.599 --> 01:07:45.639 sort of that same desire to like try and find 1287 01:07:45.920 --> 01:07:49.360 love for yourself through superficial validation. 1288 01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:53.920 Also, it's a similar thing that would lead you to 1289 01:07:54.159 --> 01:07:55.239 like enjoy. 1290 01:07:55.000 --> 01:07:58.639 Feeling good from you know, boozer, drugs or what I 1291 01:07:58.639 --> 01:08:02.360 think often happens is it actually is a great motivator 1292 01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:07.199 and driver for them to achieve crazy things because they're 1293 01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:10.079 driven by this force in their brain that they don't 1294 01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:15.480 understand why they just feel so compelled to become famous. 1295 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:18.319 And then when they get it, they realize, oh my god, 1296 01:08:18.319 --> 01:08:21.159 I still have all the same issues. I have all 1297 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:24.079 the same pain, except for now I have like this 1298 01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:27.880 like crazy frigging job that is like you have to. 1299 01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:30.319 Be on night after night after night. Yeah, I have 1300 01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:34.640 to look at myself and perform as myself all the time, 1301 01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:37.000 and so I have to amplify all these things about 1302 01:08:37.039 --> 01:08:39.760 me through my you know, the mask that eats the 1303 01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:41.880 face as someone wants called celebrity. 1304 01:08:42.039 -->

01:08:45.640 Oh wow, the mask that eats the face that is intense. 1305 01:08:45.680 --> 01:08:50.000 That's a great quote. Yeah, And so I think also 1306 01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:53.159 there's got to be some sort of science behind the 1307 01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:57.399 adrenaline rush, because when you are on stage, even if 1308 01:08:57.439 --> 01:08:59.840 you don't want to play a show at all that night, 1309 01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:04.079 once you start, it's just like just the most insane 1310 01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:08.039 adrenaline rush for an hour and a half. It's like 1311 01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:11.239 a weird sort of crash, you know, at before and 1312 01:09:11.319 --> 01:09:14.239 after and then when you go home, Like everyone I 1313 01:09:14.279 --> 01:09:16.560 know would get back from tour and they would be 1314 01:09:16.600 --> 01:09:19.000 so depressed for two weeks even. 1315 01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:20.840 Though they want to be home, they don't want to 1316 01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:22.880 go back out on the road. We just did that, 1317 01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:25.279 like we did the big Tokopis Club Farewell tour that 1318 01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:28.119 sort of wrapped up a year ago and grasped by 1319 01:09:28.119 --> 01:09:30.840 the way thank you. Uh it was it was amazing, 1320 01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:32.600 but it was also it was the biggest tour we'd 1321 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:34.479 ever done, and it was so like after years of 1322 01:09:34.600 --> 01:09:36.399 you know what it's like when you're trying, you're oh, 1323 01:09:36.479 --> 01:09:38.560 here's our like fifth record. Do you guys, can we 1324 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:41.119 please get anyone to come out in Chicago? I know 1325 01:09:41.159 --> 01:09:43.720 we played eighteen times and then all of a sudden 1326 01:09:43.720 --> 01:09:45.520 you say you're breaking up, and lo and behold everyone 1327 01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:48.840 comes out and then you stop called turkey. And it's 1328 01:09:48.880 --> 01:09:52.199 been a real process of realizing, even with the level 1329 01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:55.079 of like fame that we had and that I had 1330 01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:59.000 as the keyboard player from this band, I'm taken aback 1331 01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:02.640 by just how like base, I'm realizing some of my 1332 01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:06.239 desires are and how I just genuinely kind of miss 1333 01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:09.680 the adulation and like that many people saying, yeah, you 1334 01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:12.079 did a good job, buddy. Yeah, it's a little depressing, 1335 01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:13.840 but at least it's coming to the surface and I 1336 01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:15.079 can I can look at it. 1337 01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:18.960 Man, you're the first person that's actually been vulnerable and 1338 01:10:19.159 --> 01:10:23.600 real and said that, like most most people don't talk 1339 01:10:23.640 --> 01:10:24.439 about stuff like that. 1340 01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:26.199 You know what I mean, you're a sing and it 1341 01:10:26.239 --> 01:10:28.159 can sound like, oh, but no, it was my art. 1342 01:10:28.239 --> 01:10:30.479 It was never about the adulation. It was about my 1343 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:33.479 you know, which it was partially you know, we made 1344 01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:35.760 some good art, but we also got some good adulation. 1345 01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:39.319 Yeah, And I think also there is something as you 1346 01:10:39.359 --> 01:10:41.800 become older, you realize that it's not just like it's 1347 01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:46.640 not the adulation that you want necessarily, it's more someone 1348 01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:51.000 sort of just validating that, hey, that thing that you're 1349 01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:55.239 spending all this time on isn't just you doing it 1350 01:10:55.319 --> 01:11:00.640 selfishly in vain, you know, and ignoring your girlfriend or 1351 01:11:00.680 --> 01:11:03.840 your parents, or your or your wife and kids like that. 1352 01:11:04.079 --> 01:11:07.560 There is actually like a purpose to that, and the 1353 01:11:07.640 --> 01:11:11.039 adulation is like proof to all the people in your 1354 01:11:11.079 --> 01:11:15.199 lives who've made sacrifices for you to be able to 1355 01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:17.520 spend that time in your basement dicking around, you know 1356 01:11:17.560 --> 01:11:20.720 what I mean. It shows them like, hey, like you've 1357 01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:25.720 supported this guy and he's not just like this idiot, 1358 01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:28.399 like you know you know what I mean, like it Yeah, 1359 01:11:28.439 --> 01:11:33.359 it actually it does feed the legitimacy of your art, 1360 01:11:33.520 --> 01:11:36.880 which as you get older, like it's you start to 1361 01:11:36.920 --> 01:11:39.279 think more carefully about what you spend your time on 1362 01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:44.199 and to me, that's like reinvigorated. Why I do like 1363 01:11:44.359 --> 01:11:50.279 having a certain amount of like notoriety in whatever realm 1364 01:11:50.279 --> 01:11:54.840 I'm in, because like there's just so many reasons to to. 1365 01:11:54.880 --> 01:11:57.479 Go what am I doing? You know? And I just 1366 01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:00.960 I'm trying to fend off voice. 1367 01:12:00.640 --> 01:12:03.720 In my head that's going like you're spending a lot 1368 01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:06.600 like how long have you been looking for a snare tone? 1369 01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:07.720 Like three days? 1370 01:12:07.960 --> 01:12:11.720 Like this is absolutely ridiculous, like go hang with your child, 1371 01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:12.159 you know. 1372 01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:15.880 Yeah, and you need it to mean something and all 1373 01:12:16.119 --> 01:12:19.880 matter and be worth it, even though you know with hindsight, 1374 01:12:20.039 --> 01:12:22.640 like well there's probably half of that we could have 1375 01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:24.880 done the

easier version of or we could have just 1376 01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:27.079 got off the road after two months instead of three, 1377 01:12:27.399 --> 01:12:28.920 or we could have stayed on the road an extra 1378 01:12:28.960 --> 01:12:31.800 three days and Donejeals Holland, and that would have been. Yeah, 1379 01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:35.079 every decision is second to guessable, and no one thing. 1380 01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:37.640 It's so rare for there to be one obvious fork 1381 01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:40.199 in the road where it all went wrong or went right, 1382 01:12:41.039 --> 01:12:44.880 and so you're just left with this infinite uncertainty, especially 1383 01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:48.079 now with the metrics and the graphs and the artists 1384 01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:52.079 dot Spotify dot Com log in, you can just obsessively 1385 01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:57.000 follow every iota of your success is allegedly being quantified 1386 01:12:57.000 --> 01:12:59.680 for you now, even though it probably is nothing that 1387 01:12:59.720 --> 01:13:01.199 people haven't known this entire time. 1388 01:13:01.239 --> 01:13:04.159 I will say this about what you just said, which is, 1389 01:13:05.039 --> 01:13:07.920 I don't know why, but my instinct tells me that 1390 01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:11.359 the world's going to change because AI and the music 1391 01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:14.439 industry is changing all the time and blah blah blah. 1392 01:13:14.640 --> 01:13:18.279 But if you scan your life, like what you're motivated 1393 01:13:18.439 --> 01:13:20.880 to work hard on, like the things where you just 1394 01:13:20.920 --> 01:13:23.039 wake up and go, I'm going to do that, you know, 1395 01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:26.159 like even like it can be really weird stuff like 1396 01:13:26.199 --> 01:13:29.840 that you think isn't even necessarily that beneficial to your career. 1397 01:13:29.880 --> 01:13:33.720 But if you link all these things that like motivate you, like, 1398 01:13:33.800 --> 01:13:36.000 that's why, Like what you're doing, for example, like I 1399 01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:40.079 feel like doing a podcast where you're interviewing people to 1400 01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:43.359 me almost makes more sense than making music in a 1401 01:13:43.359 --> 01:13:47.279 lot of ways, because we listen to a lot of conversation. 1402 01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:51.600 Now we're finally talking about deep thoughts where you finally 1403 01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:54.319 can have an audience where you can keep their attention 1404 01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:57.880 for more than just a three minute single, you know, 1405 01:13:58.680 --> 01:14:01.000 and it's like it being. 1406 01:14:00.960 --> 01:14:02.239 Like a content creator. 1407 01:14:02.279 --> 01:14:05.319 Even though it's like such a gross term relative to 1408 01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:09.000 like being this like tripped out like you know, artists 1409 01:14:09.079 --> 01:14:12.560 or whatever, it it is actually like a really fascinating 1410 01:14:13.000 --> 01:14:13.720 form of art. 1411 01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:14.359 I don't know. 1412 01:14:14.399 --> 01:14:19.119 There's just something there's something very modern about technology that 1413 01:14:19.159 --> 01:14:22.199 I find just super fun, Like I like keeping up 1414 01:14:22.239 --> 01:14:24.920 to date with the new platforms and the new tech. 1415 01:14:25.159 --> 01:14:27.960 And but I guess what I'm saying is, if you 1416 01:14:28.000 --> 01:14:31.520 can figure out what you're willing to work super hard on. 1417 01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:34.920 I just said hard on, we'll clip it, don't worry, 1418 01:14:35.000 --> 01:14:36.479 it's going on the soundboard. 1419 01:14:36.840 --> 01:14:40.399 Then yeah, if you can figure out what you just 1420 01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:44.319 are super excited to just put hours into, I feel 1421 01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:47.840 like you can navigate around AI and I think you 1422 01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:51.239 can stay creative for the rest of your life. And 1423 01:14:51.319 --> 01:14:55.039 for some people that means getting a job that isn't 1424 01:14:55.159 --> 01:14:59.720 their passion so that they know they have guaranteed enough money, 1425 01:14:59.720 --> 01:15:03.239 which means time to do what they do want to 1426 01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:08.359 do obsessively. Like I think it like a hobbyist creator 1427 01:15:09.399 --> 01:15:12.319 is one hundred percent as legit as someone that does 1428 01:15:12.319 --> 01:15:15.640 it professionally for a living, if not almost more legit, 1429 01:15:16.319 --> 01:15:19.920 because there's less clouding their motivation. 1430 01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:23.840 Yes, yeah, and all that self consciousness we were talking about, 1431 01:15:23.880 --> 01:15:27.039 and that you know, that performance that rises up in 1432 01:15:27.079 --> 01:15:29.960 anyone that performs publicly, no matter how hard we might 1433 01:15:29.960 --> 01:15:33.399 try to suppress it or or therapy. Is it out 1434 01:15:33.399 --> 01:15:36.600 of us or whatever? Yeah, that's when you're doing it 1435 01:15:36.800 --> 01:15:40.079 truly just for yourself. Well, it's like, you know, you 1436 01:15:40.119 --> 01:15:43.479 have kids. I have a stepson, and it's like, oh, 1437 01:15:43.520 --> 01:15:47.279 I sometimes I think that maybe, like making up a 1438 01:15:47.359 --> 01:15:52.560 game with him is the most creatively and artistically satisfying 1439 01:15:52.960 --> 01:15:54.880 work I've ever done in my life. And it's just 1440 01:15:54.920 --> 01:15:56.520 there and gone, you know, you don't write it down. 1441 01:15:56.560 --> 01:15:58.119 We just play it and then we move on with 1442 01:15:58.159 --> 01:16:02.239 our day. And it's like, that's that's meaningful, that's pure creation, 1443 01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:05.760 and that's yes, that's a that's such a good example. 1444 01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:08.199 And you're right that that like, that's

that's the answer. 1445 01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:11.000 That's the north star that you should anyone should be 1446 01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:13.840 following totally, Like what makes you feel that way? 1447 01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:17.399 Yeah, And that's because I never understood the terms of spirituality, 1448 01:16:17.960 --> 01:16:21.439 so I never really use it. But someone basically told 1449 01:16:21.479 --> 01:16:24.279 me it's just sort of it can mean like what 1450 01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:27.800 is something that you hold at such value that it 1451 01:16:27.880 --> 01:16:31.520 sort of gives you meaning to wake up and like 1452 01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:34.159 do what you do, Like what basically what gets you 1453 01:16:34.159 --> 01:16:36.520 out of bed? And I for me, I think my 1454 01:16:36.600 --> 01:16:41.319 spirituality then would be just the process of creating. So 1455 01:16:41.640 --> 01:16:45.520 in some ways, like the format of signing to a 1456 01:16:45.560 --> 01:16:49.720 major label and doing everything you can to get all 1457 01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:53.800 these troops rallying behind you to put out twelve songs 1458 01:16:53.840 --> 01:16:55.680 every three years, I'm like, oh. 1459 01:16:56.199 --> 01:16:59.600 Like that is that is not true to my spirituality. 1460 01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:00.560 My I want. 1461 01:17:00.359 --> 01:17:03.199 To be making like a lot more music than that, 1462 01:17:03.520 --> 01:17:05.960 or like, you know, most of the work I do 1463 01:17:06.079 --> 01:17:09.680 for people as my day job is just friends that 1464 01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:13.279 are like I just do like so much hybrid stuff 1465 01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:16.399 like oh we started tracking this or I made this video, 1466 01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:19.560 but it's I don't know, can you just mess with it? 1467 01:17:19.640 --> 01:17:19.880 You know? 1468 01:17:19.960 --> 01:17:22.199 And like a lot of what I do is just 1469 01:17:22.239 --> 01:17:25.319 sort of help friends out and just play with the 1470 01:17:25.319 --> 01:17:28.520 their like almost finished sculpture and then just you know, 1471 01:17:28.760 --> 01:17:30.239 yeah that gets me out of bed. 1472 01:17:30.520 --> 01:17:30.640 You know. 1473 01:17:30.920 --> 01:17:33.560 Yeah, you're like in the workshop working on your your 1474 01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:38.359 potions and your spells exactly exactly. That's yeah, yeah, that's 1475 01:17:38.479 --> 01:17:40.359 I know exactly, That's how I want to be spending 1476 01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:42.760 my time as well. That's beautiful. Thank you for saying 1477 01:17:42.760 --> 01:17:45.560 all that I needed to hear that that's really that. Okay. 1478 01:17:46.239 --> 01:17:49.560 I anytime I've done a podcast, I get this wave 1479 01:17:49.640 --> 01:17:51.680 of embarrassment after. 1480 01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:54.840 Tell me about it. Try hosting one, every single one. 1481 01:17:55.039 --> 01:17:57.399 I'd wake up the next day mortified and for no reason. 1482 01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:00.239 It's no, I really always fine, but oh man, no, 1483 01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:02.399 you're slaying it. Maybe it's because I'm off the road 1484 01:18:02.439 --> 01:18:04.960 too and there's not like two thousand people clapping on 1485 01:18:05.000 --> 01:18:06.760 the other side of this computer for me. 1486 01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:09.239 Well, but if you think it's just yeah, it feels 1487 01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:12.520 to if you think of each person, if you start 1488 01:18:12.560 --> 01:18:15.439 a podcast and fifty people listen to an episode, it's 1489 01:18:15.439 --> 01:18:18.720 like the thought of fifty people listening to something in 1490 01:18:18.760 --> 01:18:21.239 a room at the same time, Like that's pretty cool. 1491 01:18:21.399 --> 01:18:24.960 Like not to say that you're in that camp, but 1492 01:18:25.159 --> 01:18:27.079 like my wife is. She put out a couple of 1493 01:18:27.159 --> 01:18:30.119 v logs and like just edits them and puts them 1494 01:18:30.119 --> 01:18:32.399 out on YouTube, and I think she maybe wants to 1495 01:18:32.399 --> 01:18:35.479 do more. But the fact that she got two hundred 1496 01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:36.720 and fifty views or something. 1497 01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:41.159 We were like, oh my god, this is insane, and 1498 01:18:41.159 --> 01:18:43.800 that's that's funny. Right before we got on Paul and 1499 01:18:43.880 --> 01:18:45.880 I were talking about I can't remember what it was now, 1500 01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:48.960 but there's like a it's like a something number, and 1501 01:18:49.000 --> 01:18:50.840 it's like, oh, there's like a certain number of other 1502 01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:54.560 people that were sort of actually able or we have 1503 01:18:54.680 --> 01:18:58.079 evolved to be able to like know or comprehend or 1504 01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:00.560 whatever it is this is. We didn't Wikipedia, but something 1505 01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:02.840 like that. I'll figure it out, put it in the outro. 1506 01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:06.399 But the inflation of everything, and I feel like doing 1507 01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:09.159 this as a job, and whether it's making music is 1508 01:19:09.159 --> 01:19:11.800 a job, or making movies or making podcasts or anything, 1509 01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:15.079 is the numbers get so inflated where now two hundred 1510 01:19:15.119 --> 01:19:18.680 and fifty people sounds like bullshit, right, two hundred fIF people. 1511 01:19:18.680 --> 01:19:20.199 I don't even get to bed to play for less 1512 01:19:20.199 --> 01:19:22.920 than five thousand people, you know, Like you're right. I 1513 01:19:22.960 --> 01:19:25.800 know Spotify, Like I only have like eleven thousand plays 1514 01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:28.800 on that song on Spotify. That's kind of a pretty 1515 01:19:28.840 --> 01:19:31.520 low sad numbers, Like that's eleven thousand is a very 1516 01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:32.199 large number. 1517

01:19:32.239 --> 01:19:36.119 The reality is, like all numbers can be jacked up 1518 01:19:36.279 --> 01:19:40.399 if you put money into advertising or hiring third party 1519 01:19:40.399 --> 01:19:44.159 companies or blah blah blah. I think the only thing 1520 01:19:44.199 --> 01:19:50.039 that I find genuine is if you make if everything 1521 01:19:50.039 --> 01:19:54.039 you put out creates people that go, you did. 1522 01:19:53.880 --> 01:19:58.159 It again, I like it. It's good. Like real fans are 1523 01:19:58.520 --> 01:20:00.479 so important. 1524 01:20:01.119 --> 01:20:03.359 I want everyone to know that if they hear something 1525 01:20:03.359 --> 01:20:08.520 I've been a part of, there's like vulnerability and honesty 1526 01:20:09.119 --> 01:20:12.199 and joy and fun in it, and that's like a 1527 01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:17.279 consistent flavor. So I really I could care less about numbers. 1528 01:20:17.479 --> 01:20:19.800 I don't know what any of my numbers are for anything, 1529 01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:23.399 and I know you can just pay to jack shit up, 1530 01:20:23.399 --> 01:20:26.399 so it's like it's all irrelevant. But having like a 1531 01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:30.279 consistent thing where you're like, if you can look Graham 1532 01:20:30.279 --> 01:20:33.199 in the mirror and be like you're putting more cool 1533 01:20:33.239 --> 01:20:36.600 Graham shit onto your pile of Graham stuff, that like 1534 01:20:36.640 --> 01:20:39.600 when you're eighty five, like you'd be like, that's pretty 1535 01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:40.079 good shit. 1536 01:20:40.439 --> 01:20:43.079 Huh. You know what I mean? A body of work, 1537 01:20:43.520 --> 01:20:46.760 A body of work, that's what it's called. Damn. That's 1538 01:20:47.640 --> 01:20:51.880 a perfect place to wrap up, except there's one last question. 1539 01:20:51.920 --> 01:20:54.119 We always ask the same question when we finish, and 1540 01:20:54.159 --> 01:20:56.079 I think you'll agree when you hear it that it 1541 01:20:56.199 --> 01:21:00.560 really is the perfect pinnacle of this beautiful, recently deep 1542 01:21:00.640 --> 01:21:04.159 conversation about spirituality and meaning that we've been having, which 1543 01:21:04.199 --> 01:21:07.920 of course is when you were in Los Angeles working 1544 01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:11.000 with Dave Sardi, looked at the tom Petty doodles, What 1545 01:21:11.079 --> 01:21:11.720 were you eating? 1546 01:21:12.359 --> 01:21:16.960 Oh, there was a legit pad Tie place, pad Tie chicken, 1547 01:21:17.920 --> 01:21:22.640 constantly pad Tie Chicken. I've realized that I liked pad 1548 01:21:22.680 --> 01:21:24.760 Ti chicken. That was like, I know, it's such a 1549 01:21:24.800 --> 01:21:28.000 stock thing. That's like saying like, oh, like California rolls, 1550 01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:32.600 but that there was a one place there and yeah, 1551 01:21:32.680 --> 01:21:36.319 I was obsessed with that. And then there was this 1552 01:21:36.479 -->

01:21:38.960 like one kind of California wine. 1553 01:21:39.399 --> 01:21:40.159 I can't remember. 1554 01:21:40.279 --> 01:21:42.079 It's just like you buy it in like a seven 1555 01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:44.439 to eleven and it's like one point five later. And 1556 01:21:44.479 --> 01:21:46.479 it was like there was a good number of those 1557 01:21:47.319 --> 01:21:49.720 just in the background in case they were needed for 1558 01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:51.279 inspiration at times. 1559 01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:53.880 Yeah, that's always kind of in the background. Question is 1560 01:21:53.920 --> 01:21:56.279 because you know, you get you get lunch, and you 1561 01:21:56.279 --> 01:21:58.560 get dinner if it's a long day, and that's a 1562 01:21:58.600 --> 01:22:01.479 couple of meals, but really what you're drinking in the studio, 1563 01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:05.239 which coffee, which beer, which wine? It's yeah, maybe a 1564 01:22:05.279 --> 01:22:11.119 more germane question. Well, my I'm like, for example, we 1565 01:22:11.279 --> 01:22:12.760 have this really nice. 1566 01:22:12.479 --> 01:22:16.039 Coffee maker that I got for my wife Drew, and 1567 01:22:16.119 --> 01:22:20.199 she every morning she wakes up and she just bounces 1568 01:22:20.239 --> 01:22:23.840 at it back because she's so excited about this coffee and. 1569 01:22:23.800 --> 01:22:26.600 We kind of coffee maker is it? We're inning a sponsorship. 1570 01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:32.840 It's it's like it's like literally the nicest, most expensive 1571 01:22:32.880 --> 01:22:35.920 one I could I could find that because we tried 1572 01:22:36.039 --> 01:22:40.039 all these like started shitty sold it, started shitty it, broke, 1573 01:22:40.039 --> 01:22:43.000 started hit sold it. Eventually we just she was like, 1574 01:22:43.520 --> 01:22:46.520 that's the one. Emma Chamberlain has it. I know I 1575 01:22:46.600 --> 01:22:49.319 need to have it, and which it has like yeah, 1576 01:22:49.399 --> 01:22:49.920 good luck. 1577 01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:50.920 Yeah. 1578 01:22:50.960 --> 01:22:52.840 And then one day, in a moment of weakness, I 1579 01:22:52.880 --> 01:22:54.600 was like, I'm gonna be the hero. 1580 01:22:55.119 --> 01:22:58.560 I'm gonna get it for I should know what kind 1581 01:22:58.640 --> 01:23:00.960 it is. Uh, you're aready bought it? You have it? 1582 01:23:01.359 --> 01:23:06.760 Yeah, But anyway, but for me, I prefer pre workout 1583 01:23:06.800 --> 01:23:10.520 over coffee. That's because it's like you know, scientific amount, 1584 01:23:11.079 --> 01:23:13.039 because if I have too much caffeine, I hate it. 1585 01:23:13.079 --> 01:23:15.399 If I have not enough, I hate it, and then 1586 01:23:15.439 --> 01:23:19.399 I've been rocking randomly. A ton of research has come 1587 01:23:19.399 --> 01:23:23.520 out about the benefits of creating for brain fog. 1588 01:23:24.079 --> 01:23:25.479 It's not just like a muscle thing. 1589 01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:28.800

It's like, so I've been taking it every day for 1590 01:23:28.920 --> 01:23:32.039 a couple months, and I do feel I think I'm sharper. 1591 01:23:32.159 --> 01:23:34.399 Oh what a delight, I really and it was great 1592 01:23:34.399 --> 01:23:36.239 to finally get to talk to you for longer than 1593 01:23:36.279 --> 01:23:39.239 like one minute at an airport a couple of times lives. 1594 01:23:39.319 --> 01:23:41.800 So it's it's been wonderful. Really, Thank you so much 1595 01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:44.159 for being so generous with your time and your wisdom. 1596 01:23:44.359 --> 01:23:47.399 Oh man, well, thanks for chatting with me and listen 1597 01:23:47.520 --> 01:23:55.520 to my my bs Steve bas from Hot Hot Heat 1598 01:23:55.600 --> 01:23:59.720 on major label debut. I cannot say thank you enough 1599 01:23:59.760 --> 01:24:02.199 to Steve for coming on the show, for giving us 1600 01:24:02.199 --> 01:24:04.680 so much of his time and energy and spirit, and 1601 01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:06.920 of course for the kick ass music, which which, like 1602 01:24:06.960 --> 01:24:11.279 I said in my intro, I've really really enjoyed spending 1603 01:24:11.319 --> 01:24:14.720 more time with Elevator And honestly, you know, if anyone 1604 01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:17.359 that's still listening, here's your personal anecdote for the week 1605 01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:19.880 when we were in high school, all my friends and 1606 01:24:19.920 --> 01:24:22.960 my girlfriend I think, but not me went downtown to Toronto, 1607 01:24:23.039 --> 01:24:25.800 you know, drove the forty minutes down the highway to 1608 01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:28.920 see Hot Hot Heat play at the legendary Toronto venue, 1609 01:24:28.960 --> 01:24:31.520 the Opera House, and they came back to school the 1610 01:24:31.560 --> 01:24:34.399 next day brimming with excitement because they had not only 1611 01:24:34.399 --> 01:24:36.159 gone to the show, but they'd gone around to the 1612 01:24:36.199 --> 01:24:38.640 stage door, which was a jar, and they'd gone in 1613 01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:41.079 the stage door and gone into the dressing room, and 1614 01:24:41.119 --> 01:24:42.720 there was the band, and the band was happy to 1615 01:24:42.720 --> 01:24:46.119 see them and gave them coronas and joints, or so 1616 01:24:46.199 --> 01:24:48.800 I'm told, And I was so jealous. I don't know 1617 01:24:48.840 --> 01:24:51.520 why I didn't go to the show, but I was 1618 01:24:51.720 --> 01:24:53.960 furious that my friends had had this rock and roll 1619 01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:56.720 adjacent experience while I had been sitting in my basement 1620 01:24:56.760 --> 01:24:59.840 on the computer, no doubt, and you know, like an 1621 01:25:00.159 --> 01:25:03.479 mature child, like a high school boy, I sublimated that 1622 01:25:03.600 --> 01:25:07.760 jealousy into a sort of sour grapesea distaste for the 1623 01:25:07.840 --> 01:25:10.520 music of hot, hot heat, And so for some years 1624 01:25:10.600 --> 01:25:13.199 I didn't give them a fair shake. I kind of 1625 01:25:13.239 --> 01:25:15.720 knew it. It became pretty obvious as time went by 1626 01:25:15.800 --> 01:25:19.199 that I was just being silly and doing this interview 1627 01:25:19.239 --> 01:25:23.000 and listening to the records so academically and with such 1628 01:25:23.079 --> 01:25:25.359 you know, focus and consideration. As I try to bring 1629 01:25:25.760 --> 01:25:28.079 poise and focus and consideration to everything. I do here 1630 01:25:28.119 --> 01:25:31.960 at MLD. It was like the final unraveling of my 1631 01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:36.159 high school stupid bullshit vendetta against Hot Hot Heat. So 1632 01:25:36.439 --> 01:25:38.640 this is my public apology to Hot Hot Heat and 1633 01:25:38.720 --> 01:25:41.119 my friends for being jealous of that cool experience. But 1634 01:25:41.239 --> 01:25:45.640 really I should have just been celebrating the amazing experience 1635 01:25:45.720 --> 01:25:48.159 that my friends got to have. The lesson there, of course, 1636 01:25:48.279 --> 01:25:50.680 is always go to the show with your friends. You 1637 01:25:50.680 --> 01:25:52.439 can sit in the basement and scroll in the computer 1638 01:25:52.560 --> 01:25:55.520 anytime you want, but you only get one chance to 1639 01:25:55.560 --> 01:25:58.159 get a corona from Hot Hot Heat. I made up 1640 01:25:58.159 --> 01:25:59.720 for it this time though. I had a great yak 1641 01:25:59.760 --> 01:26:02.399 with as you heard, and I already said thank you 1642 01:26:02.399 --> 01:26:04.199 to him for coming on the pod. Check out the 1643 01:26:04.239 --> 01:26:06.640 music of Hot Hot Heat. Check out the music of Mountees. 1644 01:26:07.039 --> 01:26:09.239 I love Mounties. It's another band. Steve is in with 1645 01:26:09.319 --> 01:26:13.039 the great Canadian musician Hawksley Workman. Thanks again to him 1646 01:26:13.079 --> 01:26:15.880 for being on the show, and thanks to you for listening. 1647 01:26:16.279 --> 01:26:19.279 This has been major label debut. The podcast is produced 1648 01:26:19.399 --> 01:26:23.079 every week by John Paul Bullock and Josh Hook. Our 1649 01:26:23.119 --> 01:26:27.159 theme music is by Greg Alsop. We're on social media, 1650 01:26:27.279 --> 01:26:30.840 we're on the Internet, and most importantly we have a 1651 01:26:30.920 --> 01:26:34.760 growing archive of wonderful conversations just like this one. So 1652 01:26:35.039 --> 01:26:39.199 scroll back in the feed. It's all free, nothing's Paywalt. 1653 01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:41.760 I think there's some ads on some stuff, but honestly, 1654 01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:43.960 you guys have a skip button. We got a lot 1655 01:26:43.960 --> 01:26:46.319 of great MLD behind us, and we have a lot 1656 01:26:46.319 --> 01:26:49.039 of great MLD in front of us. So thank you 1657 01:26:49.239 --> 01:26:52.479 for sticking with the podcast, Thank you for being the 1658 01:26:52.760 --> 01:26:55.119 ears out there. When we drop our trees in the forest, 1659 01:26:55.359 --> 01:26:57.479 it makes it feel a little less like we're doing 1660 01:26:57.479 --> 01:27:01.279 it for no one. And stick around because Major Label 1661 01:27:01.319 --> 01:27:04.479 Debut will return as always with more tales from the 1662 01:27:04.520 --> 01:27:06.079 intersection of art and commerce. 1663 01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:07.039 So long,