Full Transcript for Performing Femininity Made Me Gay with Ky Miller

speak to you in like a higher and different voice than we would speak to a boy baby. And and then, you know, as we move through life, we experience toxic masculinity. And I think even toxic femininity for me in this sense of like I'm putting on the show for other people. Ky: We experience toxic masculinity. And I think even toxic femininity for me in the sense of like I'm putting on the show for other people. And not only is it hard for me because I still haven't figured out a makeup sponge, Meg and Mandy: And not only is it hard for me because I still haven't figured out a makeup sponge, Ky: I posted on Facebook asking how to use a makeup sponge. And that was at a time where like, you know, people were doing like YouTube makeup tutorials, and it was just never my like I'm not gonna Meg and Mandy: use a makeup sponge and that was where like, you know, people were doing like YouTube makeup tutorials. And it was just never my like I'm not gonna Ky: go Google that right to figure out how to do that. But hey if there's a friend who could help that would be great. I just resented that I had to do all of it. Meg and Mandy: go Google that right to figure out how to do that. But like hey, if there's a friend who could help that would be great. I just resented that I had to do all of it. Ky: My daughters asked me one time, Well, didn't you love getting manicures and pedicures? And I'm like, Well, I loved a pedicure, you if they're rubbing my feet. But I hate I always resented that I had to spend Meg and Mandy: one time, well didn't you love getting manicures and pedicures? And I'm like, well I love to pedicure, you know if they're rubbing my feet, but I always resented that I had to spend Ky: two hours out of my every week or two going to do that in order to look professional at my job. In order to perform Kim, you know? And Meg and Mandy: hours out of my every week or two going to do that in order to look professional at my job, in order to perform Kim, you know. And Ky: I I think over time, like when I transitioned into just a full non-binary existence, I really swung heavy into masculinity. And I wanted nothing to do with feminity. And I took, Kim and I was upset with that person who I was and I I have really Meg and Mandy: non binary existence I really swung heavy into masculinity. And I wanted nothing to do with feminity. And I took, pin and I was upset with that person who I was and I I have really Ky: come into an appreciation for that version of myself that kept me so safe for so long and have reconnected with my own femininity, but it's in a way that like I want to embrace it. Not in the way that people are telling me you should do this and by the way, you're Meg and Mandy: an appreciation for that version of myself that kept me so safe for so long and reconnected with my own femininity, but it's in a way that like I embrace it. Not in the way that people are telling me to be this girl. Ky: also failing every day at this. and the failing for me was all almost a sense of like I didn't enjoy it. And like look at all of these other women. They en like enjoy this stuff and I don't. Like what's wrong with me? And living with that for so many years. Meg and Mandy: me was all almost a sense of I didn't enjoy it and look at all of these other women they and enjoy this stuff and I don't like what's wrong with me? And living with that for so many years Ky: And we were just stopping to say, hey bud, you don't have to do that. Right. So I'm gonna push us here in this conversation because I'm I'm listening to all these comments about attachment and making boundaries, performing femininity, Meg and Mandy: and never just stopping to say like hey bud you don't have to do that. Right. I wouldn't push us paper from this conversation because I'm listening to all these comments about attachment and making boundaries, performing femininity Ky: all of these topics. You know, we have people who are cis, gender, hetero, normative, you know, listening to this podcast and Meg and Mandy: All of these topics, you know, we have people who are cis, gender, hetero, normative, you know, listening to this podcast and Ky: I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who's like, well, I'm I'm a girl and I'm heteronormative and I also feel like I struggle with performing femininity and I also feel like I'm failing at this. I also struggle with having boundaries in my family relationships, in my romantic relationship, right? So what is it about queerness and about the queer community and about the conversations that we're having on this podcast that Meg and Mandy: I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who's like, well, I'm I'm a girl and I'm heteronormative and I also feel like I struggle with performing femininity, and I also feel like I'm failing at this. I also struggle with having boundaries in my family relationships and my romantic relationship, right? So what is it about queerness and about the queer community and about the conversations that we're having on this podcast that is for everybody, right? Like this is these are really conversations for a human being, right? Right. So Ky: For everybody, right? this is these are really conversations for a human being, right? So interesting that I find that these conversations happen more in a queer context. Yes. Where we're able to stay in this non-binary way of having a discussion. We're not saying black and white. We're not saying one is right, one is wrong, right? Meg and Mandy: Interesting that I find that these conversations happen more in a queer context. Yes. Right. Where we're able to stay in this non-binary way of having a discussion. We're not saying black and white. We're not saying one is right and one is wrong, right? I'm so curious about where the queerness is and how, you know, anybody out there listening to this podcast can can listen to this information and be like, huh, that's gonna make me curious about understanding this person more.

Maybe it's a colleague they have who's gay. Ky: I'm so curious about where the queerness is and how, you know, anybody out there listening to this podcast can can listen to this information and be like, huh, that's gonna make me curious about understanding this person more. Maybe it's a colleague they have who's gay and they're just like so in their cishet life that they're like, I really wanna know more about Dan and about Dan's life and and who he is as a person. But there's but sometimes I think that people feel like a little bit of like a a barrier there. Meg and Mandy: And they're just so in their cishet life that they're like, I really want to know more about Dan and about Dan's life and and who he is as a person. But there's with sometimes I think that people feel like a little bit of like a barrier there. to understanding that person. And maybe Dan isn't really opting in and necessarily wanting to get to know Susie over here who's curious about Dan, right? Right. But like, how are these conversations just really like like what we're talking about? Ky: to understanding that person and maybe Dan isn't really opting in and necessarily wanting to get to know Susie over here who's curious about Dan, right? But like how are these conversations just really like I feel like what we're talking Meg and Mandy: talking about here could be for for anyone. Anyone. Yeah. Right. I think it is. And it I Ky: about here could be for for anyone. Anyone. Yeah. Right? I think it is. I mean A low five men and I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly. Talks about this dynamic in depth and has just been a profound resource for me in my coming out journey. But same you know, they talk about how cis men are harmed in this too. Right. Hundred per exactly because they're a product of this algorithm and like the men that I've worked with clinically over the years come in and they really struggle with Meg and Mandy: Lok Vibmenon, I hope I'm pronouncing their name correctly, talks about this dynamic in depth and has just been a profound resource for me in my coming out journey. But same i you know, they talk about how cis men are harmed in this too. Right. Exactly. Because they're a product of this algorithm and like the men that I've worked with clinically over the years come in and they really struggle with Ky: I have been socialized that my value is in making money and being a provider and I have no sense of purpose other than that. Yes. And they really suffer. Meg and Mandy: I have been socialized that my value is in making money and being a provider and they have no sense of purpose other than that. And they really suffer in Ky: In Meg and Mandy: the way that we have taught them to be masculine figures. and and they're not taught on a social level. I think, you know, one off instances do occur, but you know, generally speaking, Ky: the way that we have taught them to be masculine figures. and and they're not taught on a social level. I think you know, one-off instances

do occur, but you know, generally speaking, we're Meg and Mandy: We're not teaching men to have empathy for themselves. We're scolding them because they missed one pitch out of a hundred in a high school baseball game. And we're gonna, lecture them the whole way home for not doing a good enough job. And so we're producing men who are like achievers Ky: not teaching men to have empathy for themselves. We're scolding them because they missed one pitch out of a hundred in a high school baseball game, and we're gonna, you know, lecture them the whole way home for not doing a good enough job. And so we're producing men who are like achievers. And productive in this capitalistic society in a way that they don't have permission to connect with themselves either. So, I mean, I think in that question of like how what's this shift from these heteronormative standards? For me, it all Meg and Mandy: and productive in this capitalistic society in a way that they don't have permission to connect with themselves either. So Mandy, I think in that question of like how what's this shift from these heteronormative standards, for me it all Ky: lies on a word permission. And I think about when my ex-husband had moved out of the house and I went into the closet and I found his wedding ring sitting in the closet, and it was this dark metal, just Meg and Mandy: lies on a word permission. And I think about when my ex husband had moved out of the house and I went into the closet and I found his wedding ring sitting in the closet and it was this dark metal just Ky: Band and I put it on my hand. Changed my whole life in that moment because I I looked at it and I was like, I what I wouldn't give to wear a ring like this instead of the like diamond flowery one Meg and Mandy: band and I put it on my hand. changed my whole life in that moment because I I looked at it and I was like I what I wouldn't give to wear a ring like this instead of the like diamond flowery one. Ky: that I always felt uncomfortable with, but Meg and Mandy: Always felt uncomfortable with buttons. Ky: couldn't put a name to that. And I remember going into places like The Gap. And I would go I always l like r really liked polo shirts. And I would go to the women's side and put on these polo shirts and the sleeves were really short and they're like short on my stomach and they show cleavage and I just wasn't comfortable with any of it. And when I put that ring on my finger and asked myself that question of Meg and Mandy: And put on these polo shirts and the sleeves were really short and they're like short on my stomach and they show cleavage and I just wasn't comfortable with any of it. And when I put that ring on my finger and asked myself that question of why can't I just wear this style of ring? The next day I took twelve bags of clothes out of my closet and and donated them to the local trans service center and Ky: Why can't I just wear this style of ring? The next day I took 12 bags of clothes out of my

closet and and donated them to the local trans service center and not realizing how expensive it would be to rebuild an entire wardrobe and what was I even going to wear, you know, because I didn't really understand outside of my athletic endeavors what would I just wear to a casual dinner. Yeah. but I gave myself permission. I gave myself permission to just try on men's clothes. Meg and Mandy: Not realizing how expensive it would be to rebuild an entire wardrobe. What was I even going to wear? because I didn't really understand outside of my athletic endeavors, what would I just wear to a casual dinner? Yeah. but I gave myself permission. I gave myself permission to just try on men's clothes. And Ky: And the first time I put on a man's polo shirt. Meg and Mandy: the first time I put on a man's polo shirt, it Ky: it was just a sigh of relief. I felt just this psychological burden lift and being able to tap into this place where, Meg and Mandy: was just like a sigh of relief. I felt just this psychological burden lift and being able to tap into this place where Ky: you know, when we talk about like trans kids and adolescents, we're not out here trying to make trans kids trans, right? Or cis kids trans or whatever that is. But what we want to do is allow them to space the space to like developmentally discover who they are and give themselves permission to just try the different shirt and try a different ring and what color do you like and Meg and Mandy: when we talk about trans kids and adolescents, we're not out here trying to make trans kids trans, right? Or cis kids trans or whatever that is. But what we want to do is allow them to space the space to like developmentally discover who they are and give themselves permission to just try the different shirt and try a different ring. And what color do you like? And, you Ky: when I tell you I resent the color pink because it was shoved at me my whole life, I just have a resistance to it. So I think it Meg and Mandy: know, when I tell you I resent the color pink because it was shoved at me my whole life. I just have a resistance to it. So I think it Ky: you know, for anybody, whether you're straight or monogamous or cisgender, just giving yourself permission to tap into the core of who you are and when I'm doing this work clinically with clients, a lot of it I start around values and just like know what's important to you and that's the navigating point. That's the psychic anchor of the thing that you can move towards Meg and Mandy: for anybody, whether you're straight or monogamous or cisgender, just giving yourself permission to tap into the core of who you are. And when I'm doing this work clinically with clients, a lot of it I start around values and just like know what's important to you and that's the navigating point. That's the psychic anchor of the thing that you can move toward. Ky: And along the way, we get to kind of check and see is this in alignment with where I want to go and what feels Meg and Mandy: And along the way we can kind of check and see is this in alignment with where I want to go and what people's Ky: in alignment for my soul. Yeah. So what I'm what I'm hearing, I want to make sure I hear this. I I want to make sure I'm saying this right, but like what I'm hearing is it's like it you don't have to be a queer person to give yourself permission to explore. Right? That we can all give ourselves permission to to to notice what feels good to us. And I'm just gonna come back to something that we've said before, which is like the more each of us. Meg and Mandy: in alignment for my soul. Yeah. So what I'm what I'm hearing, I want to make sure I hear this. I I don't want to make sure I'm saying this right, but like what I'm hearing is that it's like if you don't have to be a queer person to give yourself permission to explore. Right. Right? Then we can all give ourselves permission to to notice what feels good to us. And I'm just gonna come up with something that we said before, which is like more each of us Ky: Is giving ourselves permission to exist and permission to explore and that we are in alignment and that we are living in a place that feels authentic to us more permission we're giving other people to do the same. Yes. And at the same time, it is important that we protect and affirm each other in queer spaces because you know, a person who is fitting into the heteronormative society. Meg and Mandy: is giving ourselves permission to exist and permission to explore and that we are in alignment and that we are living in a place that feels authentic to have some more permission we're giving other people to do the same. Yes. And at the same time it is important that we protect and affirm each other in queer spaces because, you know, a person who is fitting into the heteronormative society Ky: may even have a little bit more of an advantage of being safe to explore. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Meg and Mandy: may have a little bit more of an advantage of being safe to explore. Yeah. Ky: And a little less risk. There's a little there's a little less risk less. But when it's like really who you are and you're really like, no, I think I'm gay, it's it is a yeah, it's the disruption of the attachment to all of your all of your primary relationships that you're risking and that you're that you're throwing it out there. So we so we do have to remember Meg and Mandy: But when it's like really who you are and you're really like, no, I think I'm gay. It is a yeah, it's the destruction of the attachment. Of your all of your primary relationships that you're risking and that you're that you're throwing out there. So we so we do have to remember that's Ky: And that's what I encourage our listeners to to remember is if there's ever someone and you think that they're bashing you for being heteronormative because they're taking up space to be more gay, Meg and Mandy: what I encourage our listeners to to remember is if there's ever someone and

you think that they're bashing you for being heteronormative because they're taking up spades to be more gay Ky: just just just keep that in your heart, that that is an important Meg and Mandy: Just just keep that in your heart that that is an important Ky: space to protect. Or not even bashing you but infringing upon you in some way, right? How dare you say it's better to be gay. No, that's not it's not that's not that's not what this is, but but it is still important to to differentiate that, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think in this moment, right, like obviously Meg and Mandy: space to protect. Or not even back to you but infringing upon you in some way. Right. How dare you say it's better to be there. Yeah. No, it's not it's not that's not that's not what this is, but but it is still important to to differentiate that, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think in this moment, right, like obviously Ky: what's happening Meg and Mandy: what's happening in our in culturally and in music and in T V and movies we are seeing more queer characters. There are more queer musicians representations. Started talking about Chris Pierre Ky: in our in culturally and in music and in TV and movies, we are seeing more queer characters. There are more queer musicians. The representation the representation is significantly different than it once was. Which started talking about Chris Pierre. Right. Meg and Mandy: and Jay Gray. What it's like to see a non binary singer on stage. My face is gonna turn is it red? It's a little red I just am in love. I am in love with the genderqueer artist who provide this representation that has felt like such a magical coming home for me. It's been yeah, it's been life changing. But I I want I think the thing I wanna say is like even though we have more representation and it it is more acceptable quote unquote to be Ky: I am in love with the gender queer artist who this representation it has felt like such a magical coming for me. Right. It's been yeah. It's been life changing. I want well, I think the thing I wanna say is like even though we have more representation and it is more acceptable, quote unquote, to be queer and it's you know, there is sort of this like shift, right? Well, we all know it's happening. Also it i it is equally scary. Meg and Mandy: queer and it's you know, there is sort of this like shift, right? Well we all know it's happening. Also i i it is equally scary with you know different things that are happening in our government, but that's kinda not what I'm what I'm after. What I what I am after is still important we kinda talked about this a little bit not here, but three about this this morning. Yes. Ky: with, different things that are happening in our government, but that's kind of not what I'm what I'm after. What I'm what I am after is I think it is still important. And we kind of talked about this a little bit, not here, but the three of us have talked about this this morning. Yes, it is easier.

There's more representation. It's more acceptable culturally to be queer, but it still is really difficult to come out because again, we are putting the attachment relationships on the line. Meg and Mandy: There's more representation, it's more acceptable culturally to be queer, but it still is really difficult to come out because again, we are putting the attachment relationships on the line and they are friend. And that is significant again, right? Like going back to the survival piece. And so I think I don't want that to be lost because I do feel like people around me, I think that they're sort of like, yeah, but everybody's coming out. Ky: And they are threatened. And that is significant again, right? going back to the survival piece. Mm-hmm. And so I think I don't want that to be lost because I do feel like people around me, I think that they're like, Yeah, but everybody's coming out. Yeah, you're fine. Like everybody's coming out and everybody's cool with you being gay and nobody cares. Nobody It's like I want you to care. But it's like I d I want you to care and I do it it it was questionable and there and for you know, we don't know how people are going to Meg and Mandy: And it was questionable and there and for you know, we don't know how people are going to r respond. Like with us, it affected literally every aspect of their life. Every domain. Every domain to come out and be who they are. And so that I just want to say that it just because we have this representation, it is important and we are seeing ourselves in these people, but it still is significant and Ky: respond and like Kai has shared with us, it affected literally every aspect of their life. Every domain. Every domain to come out and be who they are. And so that I just want to say that it just because we have this represent it is important and we are seeing ourselves in these people, but it still is significant and I Meg and Mandy: Yeah, one of the that I mean I think my my system Ky: just want everybody And risky. Yeah and I want everybody absolutely risky. Remember that. Yeah. I mean I think my my system Meg and Mandy: what I've you know, conclusions I've come to after a lot of therapy and staying in therapy and going through all these big shifts in my life, like my system thought that I was dying. Yeah. Ky: what I've conclusions I've come to after a lot of therapy and staying in therapy and going through all these big shifts in my life, my system thought that I was dying. If my marriage Well you were actually I was. my marriage were when like how am I going to survive? Like literally if I am disrupting this primary attachment. Meg and Mandy: literally, I am this primary attachment. Yes, that has been reflected back to me that has created the safety. You are now on your own. You are out. Figure it out. Yeah, yes. It was very crazy in the context of you haven't fully developed a sense of self that you can trust. Ky: This way this way that I have moved through the world and

the danger that has been reflected back to me that has created the safety. You are now on your own. You are out. Right? Figure it figure it out. Yeah. Yes. It's it was very scary. And you're doing that in the context of you haven't fully developed a sense of self-rust. Right. I was still gaslighting the shit out of myself. Are you kidding me? Well and scary. You know, I don't I don't know. Meg and Mandy: Are you kidding me? Well it's scary. You know, I don't I don't know. For Ky: For me, I had had no experiences with women. I really hadn't had l allowed myself to ever really have a crush. I hadn't really ever allowed myself to really look at a woman. And so I was like, I'm gay. I think. You know? Yeah. Meg and Mandy: me, I had had no experiences with women. I really hadn't had l allowed myself to ever really have a crush. I hadn't really ever allowed myself to really look at a woman. And so I was like, I'm okay. Ky: So you're sort of like, I'm gonna say this thing, I'm gonna do this thing, and I think it's true, but I don't have a lot of context for it yet. I don't have a lot of experience. Am I blowing? Meg and Mandy: So you're like, I'm gonna say this thing, I'm gonna do this thing, and I think it's true but I don't have a lot of content for it yet, I don't have a lot of experience. blowing my entire life even Ky: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I haven't even had sex with a woman yet. Right. And there's a lot more embedded Meg and Mandy: Yeah. Ky: than that whole thing too that may be for another episode. But I'm really thinking about sorry. Can we just acknowledge the the absolute privilege we've had to be able to do that and that not everybody can do this? Yes. Not everybody is in a safe enough place. Yes. Whether that's culturally, you know, whatever, like ethnic backgrounds, cultures Meg and Mandy: Another episode, but really thinking about sorry, Can we just acknowledge the the absolute privilege we've had to be able to do that and that not everybody can do this? Yes. Not everybody is in a safe enough place. Whether that's culturally, you know, whatever like ethnic backgrounds, cultures Ky: geographical locations in the world, financial I mean not everybody like Texas and Florida and I can't go to those. There's a privilege here to even be able to do this work. And so acknowledging that like if there's a listener out there just thinking like there's just no way, you know, like even in this environment where it was Meg and Mandy: Geographical location, financial world, financial in Texas and Florida and I can't go to those states. Ky: technically safe for us to come out, it still felt really scary and really hard. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Meg and Mandy: technically safe for us to come out, it still felt really scary and really hard. Yeah. August Pontier has a beautiful song called Everywhere Isn't Texas. huh. And it talks about how we come into this authenticity and and shed the weight of the skin that we were wearing to perform for other people and Ky: August Pontier has a beautiful song called Everywhere Isn't Texas. And it talks about how we come into this authenticity and and shed the weight of the skin that we were wearing to perform for other people. And as you two know, this has this year has been a full coming back home to myself in so many different ways. And I am have really been thinking about Meg and Mandy: this has this year has been a full coming back home to myself in so many different ways. And it really been about Ky: I mean, I think about our friend group all of the time because it's been such a profound Meg and Mandy: Because it's been profound. Ky: experience. And sometimes I think like, gosh, we haven't all I haven't known all of you for a handful of months right now since March. Right. And we're in October. So we're seven months into knowing each other. I really came into the friend group when I came back Meg and Mandy: All of you for a couple of months, since March. Right. And we're in October. So we're seven months into knowing each other. I really came into the fern group when I came back Ky: To Colorado in July. And for Andrew Gibson, right? Right, right. These are all new friendships. But what I have experienced in this space has been life-changing for me in the way of like how when people used to say something about lesbians and there would be a negative connotation. Meg and Mandy: to Colorado in July. And for Andrew, right, right. These are all new friendships, but what I have experienced in this space has been life-changing for me in the way of like how when people used to say something about lesbians and there would be a negative connotation. Ky: Kind of in the way, Mandy, I think it was, I think it was one of you who said something about like you would know Kai if you met them. Meg and Mandy: in the way, Mandy, I think it was I think it was one of you who said something about like, you would know Kai if you met them. I did. Ky: I did. And I think if that had been anybody in my life previously who said, you would know Kim if you met her Meg and Mandy: And I think if that had been anybody in my life previously who said like, you would know Kim if you met her, I would have taken that as a they would have seen my queerness and it would not have been good. Right. Yeah, but when you said it this time, Meg, I was like, I felt so Ky: I would have taken that as a they would have seen my queerness and it would not have been good. Right. Ooh, how did I stand out? shit. Yeah, but when you said it this time, Meg, I was like, I felt so held in positive regard that I didn't have this trauma response of is there an element of being othered in them? Yeah, I I meant it from a place of love. Right. For sure. And it's just like how we were sharing the other day about our qualities and our cishet life that were negative. Yes. They just transferred right over. Meg and Mandy: held in positive regard that I didn't have this trauma response of is there an element of being othered in that?

Yeah. I I meant it from a place of love. For sure. For sure. That were negative. Yeah. They just transferred right over into our queer lives and they're are now being celebrated. Not only just honored. Not only just like honored at a low level but like Ky: into our queer lives and they're are now being celebrated. Not only just honored. Not only just honored like at a low level but like celebrated. Rejoiced for them. Rejoice. We rejoice. And you know Meg and Mandy: celebrated rejoiced for them. Rejoice. We rejoice. And for so many of us AFAB queer folks, we're neurodivergent. Right? Like relationships, we might be autistic, we might be ADHD or we might have O C D the trifecta, many of us. It's hard to make friends. And it can feel really discouraging. And so as I've been doing these relational inventories and like which relationships feel like there is symmetry and reciprocity to where I'm not Ky: For so many of us AFAB queer folks, we're neurodivergent. Right? Like relationships, we might be autistic, we might be ADHD or we might have OCD, the trifecta many best. And it's hard to make friends. Yeah. It can feel really discouraging. And so as I've been doing these relational inventories and like which relationships feel like there is symmetry and reciprocity, to where I'm not being pulled into this place where I have to do things for people to have value or people just want Meg and Mandy: pulled into this where I have to do things for people to have value or people just want Ky: Hey, come hang out because we enjoy your company. I I really just want to implore any queer person who is listening to this and feeling isolated and alone. Your community is out there, yes, and it can be really hard to find and hard to connect with people, but there are ways that you can build community, and it is absolutely life-giving. There is so much abundance and aliveness in this friend group. And Meg and Mandy: to, hey, come hang out 'cause we enjoy your company. I I really just want to implore any queer person who is listening to this and feeling isolated and and alone. Your community is out there and it can be really hard to find and hard to connect with people. But there are ways that you can build community and it is absolutely life giving. There is so much abundance and aliveness in this friend group. And Ky: I had a really beautiful thing happen over the last couple of weeks. I am Meg and Mandy: A really beautiful thing over the last a couple of weeks. I am Ky: planning to go to Seattle to see Sarah Cahun, who's my like one of my favorite artists, who just recently put out a beautiful album. And so I booked this trip and I was going to see my best friend Nico. Meg and Mandy: going to go to Seattle to see Sarah Cahun, who's my one of my favorite artists, who p just recently put out a beautiful album. and it's like you know, I just want to see my best Ky: We were gonna fly into Portland, pick up Nico, we're gonna go to Seattle, and then I was talking with one of our friends in our friend group, Sam, and was like, Sam, you should come with us. It would be a great trip. Meg and Mandy: It'd be a great Ky: First of all, then I found out that Chris Pierre is gonna be there, who's my all-time favorite artist. These are like if Meg and Mandy: Greek is gonna be there, who's my all time favorite artist. These are like Ky: If anybody will listen to me talk about Chris Priuka and Ceric, Meg and Mandy: What? Ky: I'm going to talk about it because they're they have just to see gender queer and queer folks on stage is not something Meg and Mandy: It your encouragement is not Ky: I would have ever imagined. And I was so surprised with how meaningful that experience was. So, you know, Sam and Nico are both non-binary gender queer folks, and we were talking about this road trip that we're gonna take when we fly into Portland to pick up Nico, and we're gonna drive up to Seattle together, and I had this Meg and Mandy: Meaningful that experience was. We're both non-binary genderqueer folks, and we were talking about this road trip that we're gonna take when we fly into Portland to pick up Nico and we're gonna drive up to Seattle together and had this moment of like thinking about how the women in my family used to schedule a girls' trip to the Oregon Coast every year. And I was not invited ever. What? And Ky: moment of thinking about how the women in my family used to schedule a girls trip to the Oregon Coast every year. And I was not invited ever. What? And I always had this like I was never invited to girls nights or girls things because Meg and Mandy: Pearl. Ky: I was outspoken at points about not loving being a girl 'cause it didn't fit with me. But people took that as like, I don't love womanhood, which is not the thing at all. I love women. I I will Meg and Mandy: I love women. I I will I would Ky: I would throw down for women. Yeah. I I fight every day for women's rights and and love the idea of womanhood. I just wanted to relate with it on my own terms, right? But then I you know, some of these girl things, like I actually didn't want to do either. Like if there was a girl's weekend trip and they were going shopping and like doing all Meg and Mandy: throw down for women. I I fight every day for women's rights and and love the idea of womanhood. I just wanted to relate with it on my own terms, right? But then you know, girl things didn't want to do either. Like if there was a girl's weekend trip and they were going and like doing Ky: the girl things, like I don't want to spend my time doing that. So like I actually like I want to be invited, but I don't because I'm gonna have to say no because I don't wanna go. And then the guys would be going on like a fishing trip and I Meg and Mandy: I'm feeling that I have to say no because I don't want to buy fishing trip and Ky: Love fishing, and so I would always want to go on those guys' trips, but not I was a girl, so I didn't get invited to those, and so I just never had

that sense of I get to go on this trip with people of my same gender and do this trip. And so I was texting with Sam Meg and Mandy: fishing. Wanna go on guys trips, not pearls when I didn't get invited to so I never had that like on this trip with people of my same like current until this trip. Ky: and Nico, and I was just saying, This is so meaningful to me that we get to have like a bros trip, and now we've like kind of played off that pun, and they're calling it like our broad trip, and it was just this moment. Meg and Mandy: And I was just saying this is so meaningful to me that we get to have a bros trip and now we play off that pun and and are calling it our bro trip. It was just this moment Ky: Of like I finally belong in a gendered space, but it's one that doesn't exist in the binary Meg and Mandy: of like, I finally belong in a gendered space, but it's one that doesn't exist in the binary. Ky: that we're given by these social constructs and heteronormativity, yeah, cisgender compulsory, you know, kind of stuff. So right, it's just it's this year has held a lot of magic in the connection with friends, and I you know, we have talked about how these connections feel a little bit different than our straight friendships, and that's not I have a lot of straight people in my life. I absolutely love, and there's some things that I Meg and Mandy: That we're given by these social constructs and heteronormativity and cisgender compulsory, you know, kind of stuff. So it's just it's this year has held a lot of magic in the connection with friends. And I, you know, we have talked about how these connections feel a little bit different than our straight friendships. And that's not I have a lot of straight people in my life I absolutely love. And there's some things that I've Ky: I've experienced that they will just have absolutely no way of understanding Meg and Mandy: experienced that they will just have absolutely no way of understanding. Ky: what it is to be a masculine person and go into a grocery store in the Midwest and be refused service, or to be turned away at the pharmacy counter by somebody who's homophobic or transphobic. And Meg and Mandy: what it is to be a masculine person and go into a grocery store in the Midwest and be refused service, or to be turned away at the pharmacy counter by somebody who's homophobic or transphobic and Ky: you know, we can talk about that in a way that there is an ease and an understanding and an empathy to such a higher degree. And also, like Meg and Mandy: way that there's an ease and an understanding and an empathy to such a higher degree. Ky: we get our each other's gay jokes, you know. So, like sometimes I'm in straight pace places, and I like this is the perfect. And I'm Meg and Mandy: Page up. Ky: like, I can't even say it because nobody's gonna get it. We can just all kind of show up in this space and really Meg and Mandy: And really Ky: I see us getting curious we with each other and asking those questions that we talked about at the very beginning of the podcast No, it wasn't at the podcast. It was at the meeting earlier and Meg was like, We need to be recording. We had such great conversation, but we were talking about how people don't get curious with us. Right. Wait, was that on the podcast? No, it was we we brought it in a little bit. Well, just that notion of like d can people get curious and interact with our queerness. So like Meg and Mandy: see us getting curious with with each other and asking those questions that we talked about at the very beginning of the podcast. No, it wasn't at the podcast. It was when we were eating earlier and it was like, we need to be recording. We had such great conversation, but we were talking about how people don't get curious with us. Right. Wait, was that on the podcast or was that on we we brought a little bit. Let's talk about it fully. So can you say more about it? Well, just that notion of like Can people get curious and interact with our queerness? So when I came out as non-binary, I had asked my dad, do you have any questions about my gender? I wanted to talk to him about it and this is what I've been toying with for all of these years and we've never talked about it. And he said, No, I don't want to talk about it. He said actually no, thank you. He did. Right. And two parts made me respond. And one part was like, this is great. He's just going to accept me and normalize this. But the other part was like Ky: When I came out as non-binary, I had asked my dad, do you have any questions about my gender? Like I kind of wanted to talk to him about it. Like, this is what I've been toying with for all of these years and we've never talked about it. And he said, No, I don't want to talk about it. He said, actually, no, thank you. I prefer not to talk about this. Right. And had two parts of me respond. And one part was like, this is great. He's just going to accept me and like normalize this. But the other part was like, Meg and Mandy: I've experienced this where I have this identity and these things that aren't Ky: I've experienced this where I have this identity and these things that aren't Meg and Mandy: stamped with approval that we that we don't talk about it from that perspective. And I felt really torn. and do desire to be known. And I think that, you know, when we work with kids and teens and adults therapeutically, and Mandy, you probably run into this with the kids you work with in an educational setting, all we ever want is to be known and understood. Ky: stamped with approval that we that we don't talk about it from that perspective and I felt really torn. and and do desire to be known. And I think that you know when we work with kids and teens and adults therapeutically and Mandy you probably run into this with the kids you work with in an educational setting, all we ever want is to be known and understood. To be seen to be which goes back to the attachment piece, right? It's like to be

seen and known and Meg and Mandy: It comes back to the attachment piece, right? It's like to be seen and known and revered for who we are. Yeah. You you knew who I performed, you knew Kim. Right, right. And you loved Kim, right? Can you love Kai? But this is. And we'd all do well with that. Ky: revered for who we are. Yeah. Right. You you knew who I performed, you knew Kim. Right, right. And you loved Kim. Right. Can you love Kai? But this is a death. And we don't do well with death. Yeah. Right? People don't know what to say. They don't. Even a divorce is a death, right? So like, you know, I found myself Meg and Mandy: Right? People don't know what to say. They don't. Even a divorce is a death, right? So like, you know, I found myself interacting with my family who was just kind of trying to move on with life. And instead of it being like, hey, I'm really sorry, just even a simple comment of acknowledging the divorce, acknowledging, you know, me coming out and and and like you said, getting curious would be that next level of like Ky: interacting with my family who was just trying to move on with life and instead of it being like, Hey, I'm really sorry, just even a simple comment of acknowledging the divorce, acknowledging, you know, me coming out and and and like you said, getting curious would be that next level of like which would be great, you know, but people just don't know what to say. Yeah. Meg and Mandy: Which would be great, but people just don't know what to say. Yeah. one of the more painful comments that I've heard is like it doesn't matter to me that you're gay, I love you anyway. Right, right, right. Right? But that is what that person is trying to say to me. But like I care. Ky: one of the more painful comments that I've heard is I don't care. And it doesn't matter to me that you're gay. I love you anyway. Right, right, right. Right. that is what that person is trying to say to me. But I care. Yeah. I ha this has been Meg and Mandy: That's good. Ky: going on for me, going on in inside of me for so long Meg and Mandy: In inside of me for so long and I have been living in a relationship with you for so long, you don't care. It's a painful thing to hear, right? We do want to be seen and we want to be known and there is this whole there's a there's a a whole existence. It's this whole existence that has not had permission to exist. Ky: long and I have been living in relationship with you for so long and like you don't care. That is such a painful thing to hear, right? We do want to be seen and we want to be known. And there is this whole, there's a, there's a, a whole existence. I don't mean to keep going back to this phrase, but I use it all of the time. It's this whole existence that has not had permission to exist. Mm-hmm. Right. It hasn't breathed the light of day. It has not breathed the light of day. It has been tucked away in dark webby colours. Yes. And we suffer in that. And so when it is brought into the light, when someone

is curious, when someone wants to know about it, when it is invited into the space, it is so healing. Yeah. Which is why Meg and Mandy: Way in our in that. And so when it is brought into the light, when someone is curious, when someone wants to know about it, when it is invited into the space, it is so healing. Ky: Which is what queer family is. Which is why our queer family has been so significant for all of us. And I think why so many people have this queer chosen family because Meg and Mandy: Yeah. Which is why our queer family has to be so significant for all of us. Why so many people have this queer chosen family? As we ask these questions and we go to these places and we see each other in these ways that we haven't been seen. It's not just for those folks who have the extreme version of being ostracized from their family, rejected from their family, it it doesn't have to be that to also need Yeah, and in some ways I don't I mean I don't Ky: we ask these questions and we go to these places and we see each other in these ways that we haven't been seen. It's not just for those folks who have the extreme version of being ostracized from their family, rejected from their family, like it it doesn't have to be that to also need Yeah, and in some ways I don't I mean don't Meg and Mandy: like that's that's clear and that's like explicit, right? Right. So there is something a little bit cleaner about it. It's painful, don't be you know, it doesn't mean it's easier or anything. Ky: that's that's clear and that's explicit, right? Right, right. So there is something a little bit cleaner about it. It's painful. Don't g it doesn't mean it's easier or anything like that, but at least it's like clear. It's clear. Right. Right? I think this gray space of like come come and continue to exist with us. We're not really going to acknowledge how you're different. We aren't really curious about how you're different. We don't wanna know if these things that we've always done continue to feel good to you or don't feel good to you. You know, there's no Meg and Mandy: But at least it's like clear. It's clear. Right. Right. I think this gray space of come come and continue to exist with us. We're not really going to acknowledge how you're different. We aren't really curious about how you're different. We don't wanna know it's these things that we've always done continue to feel good to you or don't feel good to you. You know, there's no question Ky: question or curiosity, that that is painful, right? It's like this o o omission, It is. Meg and Mandy: or curiosity. That that painful, right? It's like this o omission, you know. Ky: And curiosity is Meg and Mandy: Curiosity is one of the the greatest mechanisms that we have to foster attachment. So when people don't get curious with us, it takes it as a like, you're not interested. And it's not just you're not interested in the fact that I'm gay. That's not even the most interesting part about all of it is how have I survived this? What has this been like you? Yeah, I don't know. That's the question I wish people would ask. Like, what has this been like for you? Yeah. Ky: one of the the greatest mechanisms that we have to foster attachment. So when people don't get curious with us, it takes it as a like, you're not interested. Yeah. You're not interested in the fact that I'm gay. That's not even the most interesting part about all of it is how have I survived Yes. What has this been like for you? I know. That's the question that I wish people would ask. Yes. What has this been like for you? Yeah, how did you get here? Meg and Mandy: We just Ky: you know, when I when I first started this attachment work, I first started looking at attachment with I was working with foster youth who had experienced sexual abuse. So they were recovering from a very deep trauma and doing family work, and then it was like Meg and Mandy: at work. I first started working at attachment with I was working with foster youth who had experienced sexual abuse and so they were recovering from a very deep trauma and work and was Ky: doing adult relational work, and then it was like I discovered that attachment was this thing in relationship with ourselves, and now I'm obsessed with attachment in larger. Meg and Mandy: Relational work. And then it was like I discovered that attachment was this thing in relationship with ourselves. And now I'm obsessed with attachment in larger Ky: Systems, friend groups, larger family systems, because you have alignments in all of that. You're gonna have two people who hang out here a little bit more and two people who are dating. And what happens if the homeostasis of that is knocked off? It can impact the whole rest of the system. And I mean, there could be Meg and Mandy: systems, friend groups, larger family systems, because you have alignments in all of that. You're gonna have two people who hang out here a little bit more and two people who are dating. And what happens if the homeostasis of that is knocked off? It can impact the whole rest of the system. And there could Ky: hours worth of discussion around scapegoating of queer folks in family systems. And I Meg and Mandy: persorive discussion around scapegoating of queer folks in family systems. And Ky: think that in this space it has been. just all of us getting curious with one another and asking these questions and where are you with coming out and how's your family been and what are you wearing and have you thought about this haircut and do you want to talk about your style and you know what musical artists are you listening to and can we talk about Chris Pure every ten minutes? Like you know what are all of these things and it's it's just this authentic becoming and what is so fascinating to me from like a social level between this friend group is like how some people there are so many similarities. Like there's three or four people Meg and Mandy: asking these questions and where are you with

coming out and how's your family been and what are you wearing and have you thought about this haircut and do you want to talk about queer style and you know what musical artists are you listening to and can we talk about Chris Pure every ten minutes? Like you know, what are all of these things? And it's it's just authentic becoming and what is so fascinating to me from like a social level between this friend group is like how some people there are so many similarities. Like there's three or four people Ky: Who have Meg and Mandy: who have Ky: a tattoo on their ring finger. There are three or four people who have haircuts the exact same way and use they-them pronouns. So you can just see these different little aspects of like queer expression that like a few of us at a time will share. And it's just it really makes me think about the multi-directionality of people in in the context of social systems and the similarities and the differences that contribute to you know all of our own uniqueness and one thing. Meg and Mandy: tattoo on their ring finger. There are three or four people who have haircuts the exact same way and use they them pronouns. So you can just see these different little aspects of queer expression that like a few of us at a time will share. And it's just I really makes me think about the multidirectionality of people in s in the context of social systems and the similarities and the differences that contribute to, you know, all of our own uniqueness. And one thing Ky: that Meg and Mandy: that Ky: I really love is Meg and Mandy: I really love is Ky: the way that we're showing up for each other and just like planning birthday parties, right? Meg and Mandy: birthday parties, right? because as an adult, I have been the one who has always thrown parties for everybody else. I have never had a friend group reciprocate that on my birthday. So this was the first time I had friend groups. And yes. Yes. I mean this year the gift of of forcing one of our friends into a new haircut and a new fashion style was exactly what I wanted. It was so gay and the honor of my life to be with somebody in their Ky: Because as an adult, I have been the one who has always thrown parties for everybody else. I have never had a friend group reciprocate that on my birthday. So this was the first time We're doubling down next year when you really let us when you really let us this year the gift of of coercing one of our friends into a new haircut and and new it was fashionable was exactly what I wanted. It was so gay and the honor of my life to be with somebody and they're they're coming out and transforming that movement. Meg and Mandy: They're coming out and in transformative moment. Ky: It's beautiful. I'll carry that with me for the rest of my life. But it is just really interesting to see how much we all have in common and then, some of the differences. And and I think, what I've noticed is if somebody's birthday's coming up and they say, This is what I want my birthday to look like, the rest of us are like, Great. We yep, we have Meg and Mandy: that you know, I'll carry that with me for the rest of my life. But it is just really interesting to see how much we all have in common and then, you know, some of the differences. And but I think, you know, what I notice is if somebody's birthday is coming up and they say, This is what I want my birthday to look like, the rest of us are like, Great. We have Ky: six side chats. Yes. Good luck going back and finding any information you might need to reference because there are so many chats to keep up with. But we just show up and and we give people permission to have needs. Meg and Mandy: And and permission to have needs and feelings and you know, what is this that you want it to look like? We don't need to impose our idea of a birthday party on you. Like how do you want to be celebrated? So get out there, people, and build your community. It is we for real. But I think you're saying Ky: And feelings and you know, what is this that you want it to look like? We don't need to impose our idea of a birthday party on you. Like, how do you want to be celebrated? So get out there, people, and build your community. I I think that is it is waiting for you. Life-giving. But I think I I wonder if you if you guys agree with us. I think that this is why people of color want to hang out with each other, right? This is why queer people want to hang out in queer community. Meg and Mandy: why people of color want to hang out with each other, right? This is why queer people want to hang out in a queer community. It's not that I'm against hanging out with straight people. It's not that we think they're bad or anything like that. But there's a different language, there's a different sense of humor. There's a d it's just a whole different culture. It's a different culture. Yeah. Yeah. And so when we are together Ky: It's not that I'm against hanging out with straight people. It's not that I think they're bad or anything like that, but there's a different language, there's a different sense of humor, there's a it's just a whole different space and culture. Yeah. And so when we are together. I d we don't have to explain our jokes. We just get to rest and be in the space with each other where we're being seen. And it's so glorious healing for glorious. It's like the sun shining on my face. Yeah. When you've been in a long dark winter. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of abundance and aliveness. And that's something I've really been talking Meg and Mandy: I we don't have to explain our jokes. We just get to rest and be in the space with each other where we're being seen. And it's so glorious. Glorious. Yeah. It's like the sun shining on my face. Yeah. When you've been in a long dark winter. Yes. Exactly. There's a lot of abundance and aliveness and that's something I've really been talking with my clients about a lot is, you know, this is a really challenging Ky: with my

clients about a lot is, this is a really challenging time that we're all living through. It's like we're in a pressure cooker. Our expenses are getting higher. pay checks are not growing, you know, in proportion with what is being demanded of us financially in this society. It's just a really hard time for a lot of people. And it's like, how do we balance that? Yeah. And I think that, you know, with the heavy it kind of pulls us down. And when we can engage the things that bring us aliveness, it it's Meg and Mandy: time that we're all living through. It's like we're in a pressure cooker. Our expenses are getting higher. Our pay checks are not growing, you know, in proportion with what is being demanded of us financially in this society. It's just a really hard time for a lot of people. And it's like, how do we balance that? And I think that, you know, with the heavy it kind of pulls us down. And when we can engage the things that bring us aliveness, it sparks Ky: sparks us to Meg and Mandy: us to Ky: be able to experience joy and not in the way that like Meg and Mandy: be able to experience joy and not in the way that there can be a lot of pressure, I think, especially for for gender expansive folks right now to like feel joy. And I felt that a lot over the last couple of years of like, I have to feel joy. I need to find this. And it was like I can't organically just produce this for myself. I need something to feel joy about. And I think it starts with the giving ourselves permission and gets more expansive from there. And I I think do think that queer community brings Ky: There can be a lot of pressure, I think, especially for for gender expansive folks right now to feel joy. And I felt that a lot over the last couple of years of like I have to feel joy. I need to find this. And it was like I can't organically just produce this for myself. I need something to feel joy about. And I think it starts with the giving ourselves permission and gets more expansive from there. And I I think do think that queer community brings the opportunity for an organic, natural aliveness. Meg and Mandy: the opportunity for an organic natural aliveness, Ky: once we're in the places that we can call hey, these are my people. And so, to queer folks who are maybe just coming out and don't have their queer community bill yet or have maybe tried a few different friend friendships and they're not working out because of compatibility or, you know, reciprocity or whatever the reason, I just want to encourage like keep looking. Yeah, keep going. It takes a long time. Yeah. to find your people and to build community and Meg and Mandy: once we're in the places that we can call, hey, these are my people. And so, to queer folks who are maybe just coming out and don't have their queer community built yet or have maybe tried a few different friend friendships and they're not working out because of compatibility or, you know, reciprocity or whatever the reason, I just want to encourage like keep looking. It it takes a long time to find your people and to build community and Ky: we won't find them if we're not out there looking. Yeah. we do have to be vulnerable enough to put ourselves Meg and Mandy: We won't find them if we're not out there looking. Yeah. we do have to be vulnerable enough to put ourselves Ky: Out there. We all complained the same way about being on apps because ultimately it's it's it I won't I don't want to say it sucks because it's what brought us most of us together. Yeah. But like it's it's not easy. You do have to be vulnerable, you do have to muck, you know, go through the muck a little bit. Yeah, you do have to turn them and burn them a little bit. You know what I'm saying? Turn Meg and Mandy: out there. We all complained the same way about being on apps because ultimately it's it's i I w I don't want to say it sucks because it's what brought us most of us together. But like it's it's not easy. You do have to be vulnerable. You do have to muck, you know, go through the muck a little bit. Yeah. You do have to turn and burn them a little bit, you know what I'm saying? Yep. Ky: them and burn them. Yep. Sure do. But like yeah, be be once you get connected with yourself and what you need and what you want, ideally that's Meg and Mandy: Be yourself. You're what you want. Really? Ky: when you go and you look for your people. Because it's fresh. You can be discerning about who you're spending your time and energy with. And as you get closer to yourself and as you get more in attunement with your own needs. Meg and Mandy: When you go and you look for your people, right? Because it's fresh. You can be discerning about who you're spending your time and energy with. And as you get closer to yourself and as you get more in attunement with your own needs, those people show up. And it's easier to find them because you attune, Ky: Those people show up. And it's easier to find them because you attune Meg and Mandy: and that other person is probably doing the same work on themselves. And that's why we're able to come together in community like this and have it be so powerful. I and just when we're in alignment, then we are calling. Ky: And that other person is probably doing the same work on themselves. And that's why we're able to come together in community like this and have it be so powerful. I and just when we're in alignment, then we are calling Meg and Mandy: in people that are you know right exactly Is there anything you didn't cover and also we want you to come back Kai. Please come back again. Thank you for having me. Will you? Yeah absolutely I've come into this space and I was fed some breakfast tacos and I get to sit here and chat with two really great friends. would love to come back anytime Ky: in people that are there too. Right? Hundreds of Exactly. Is there anything you didn't cover? And also we want you to come back, Kai. Please come back again. Thank you for will you? Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

Come into this space now. I was fed some breakfast tacos and sit here and chat with two really great friends. would love to come back anytime. Meg and Mandy: I think these are really important conversations. And this format gives the opportunity to get into those more nuanced spaces of it all because I think that in society in the like the greater context, we don't get into the nuances of of coming out. Right. Right. And it's it's not a I'm just gonna come out and say I'm gay process. Right. There's f five hundred other things. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Ky: I think these are really important conversations and this format gives the opportunity to get into those more nuanced spaces of it all because I think that in in society in the the greater context, we don't get into the nuances of of coming out. Right. Right and it's it's not a I'm just gonna come out and say I'm gay process. Right. There's we're pull we're pulling back the curve. Yeah. Right. And before we go, I'm just gonna Meg and Mandy: And before we go, I'm just gonna Ky: put you on the spot here and ask you one question. I know that you had gay all around you and in you, but what was it that ultimately tipped the scales and made you gay? What made you gay again? Okay. What was it? my god. Rhea Demuri. Super hot mask who was on TikTok and like Meg and Mandy: put you on the spot here and ask you one question. I know that you had gay all around you and in you, but what was it that ultimately tipped the scales and made you gay? What made you gay? Okay. What was it? my god. Rhea Demary. Super hot mask, who was on TikTok and like Ky: This was twenty twenty, right? During the pandemic. I had been out since twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen as non-binary. I knew I was gay in some iteration and have probably tried on every letter of the alphabet at this point. but I was in this weird spot of like, do I want to present mask or am I attracted to masks? And then I noticed that I just started like Rhea Demary is the only thing that's coming up on my social media. And I I just at that point was like I'm Meg and Mandy: This was twenty twenty, right? During the pandemic. I had been out since twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen as non-binary. I knew I was gay in some iteration and have probably tried on every letter of the alphabet at this point. but I was in this weird spot of like, do I want to present mask or am I attracted to mask? And then I noticed that I just started like Rhea Demary is the only thing that's coming up on my social media. And I I just at that point was like I'm Ky: I'm good. I think this is looking at it. they I think Rhea uses she her pronouns. She's a content creator and started off as kind of like doing some humorous bits and then has followed her relationship into her partner now. But Rhea also had a lot of struggles coming out and you know, I don't know the ins and outs of of Meg and Mandy: I'm good. I think this is it and started looking at it. they I think Rhea uses she her pronouns. She's a content creator and started off as kind of like doing some humorous bits and then has followed her relationship into her partner now. But Rhea also had a lot of struggles coming out and you know, I don't the ins and outs of of Ky: her family background, but you know, there was a lot of religious conservatism and a lot of homophobia, and so it was very hard for her to come out, and I think what I Meg and Mandy: Her family background, but there was a lot of religious conservatism and a lot of homophobia. And so it was very hard for her to come out. And I think what I've Ky: Seen about around what she has shared with the public, starting out as this kind of humorous TikTok content creator and morphing into this person who has really just come into herself. And so you saw that work reflected back to you Meg and Mandy: seen about around what she has shared with the public, you know, starting out as this kind of humorous TikTok content creator and morphing into this person who has really just come into herself. And you saw that word reflected back to you. Ky: in that really I did, yeah, I did, and it it sparked my interest really around figuring out like Meg and Mandy: marked my really around figuring out my mask or am I just attracted to masks? And I think this whole thing about being queer is holding space for multiplicity. Ky: Am I mask or am I just attracted to masks? And I think this whole thing about being queer is holding space for multiplicity. A hundred percent. You get to do both and be both. Yes. unfortunately for me it makes my dating pool about f five people deep. Meg and Mandy: Okay. Ky: But it's yeah, I I really did see a lot of myself reflected in her and felt my heart pitter pattern when I would see her pop up on my screen and so just really at that point kind of put a stop in my life and like it is just time. Yeah for me. It's time for this. It's time. Yeah, baby. Welcome back to yourself. Thank you for welcome back to yourself. Yeah. We're so happy. Meg and Mandy: lot of myself reflected in her and felt my heart pit her pattern when I would see her pop up on my screen and so just really at that point kind of put a stop in my life and like it is just time yeah for me to do this. It's time welcome back to yourself. Thank you for helping me get here. Yeah. We're so happy. Ky: We'll see you next time. Thank you for listening. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Deuces. Awesome. Deuces. Peace. Meg and Mandy: Yeah, this is awesome. Meg: Hey all, thank you so much for joining us on the Mamie Gay Podcast and listening to our second episode with Kai Miller. We're so happy you're here, and we would really love it if you would email us at MamegayPodcast at gmail.com. We'd really like to hear from you and hear any questions that you would like us to answer on our Meg and Mandy check-in episodes. We'll be back next week with a new episode and to talk more about what made us gay. Until next time, stay connected to the gay in your life. Peace.