Lisa Brennan-Jobs is a New York-based writer. Her new book Small Fry is about her childhood and her relationship with her father, Steve Jobs.

"You find yourself in a whole net, in a constellation of stories, each one connecting to another. It was amazing how much I remembered. Sometimes I meet people and they say, goodness, I can’t even remember what I had for lunch. How can you remember so much? And I think, oh, sit down for a while writing badly and you will remember and remember and remember. Some things weren’t terribly pleasant to remember. And some things were incredibly wonderful."

Thanks to MailChimp, Under My Skin, Skagen, Sleeping Beauty Dreams, and Pitt Writers for sponsoring this week's episode.

  1. @LisaBrennanJobs
  2. Brennan-Jobs on Longform
  3. [1:35] Small Fry (Grove Press • 2018)
  4. [48:55] "Growing Up Jobs" (Vanity Fair • Sep 2018)
  5. [49:00] "In ‘Small Fry,’ Steve Jobs Comes Across as a Jerk. His Daughter Forgives Him. Should We?" (Nellie Bowles • The New York Times • Aug 2018)
  6. [56:15] Steve Jobs (Walter Isaacson • Simon & Schuster • 2011)
  7. [56:20] Steve Jobs (Aaron Sorkin • Universal Pictures • 2015)
United States


00:00:00pea before we get going I just want to say that this show is brought to you by Park row books the publisher of under my skin by New York Times bestselling author Lisa Unger under my skin is an addictive psychological Thriller about a woman on the hunt for her husband's killer but can she handle the truth about what really happened find out for yourself listen to the audio book of under my skin today also bring you the show today it's the new contemporary dance and art show Sleeping Beauty dreams coming to New York City this holiday season I am excited about this I don't go see many shows but hey the Christmas season is the season to see Sleeping Beauty dreams it's at the Beacon Theater on December Fourteenth and Fifteenth you can get tickets at ticketmaster.com Sleeping Beauty dreams again Sleeping Beauty dreams in NYC this holiday season here's the show
00:00:58Play Welcome to the longform podcast I'm Aaron lammer and hair with Evan Ratliff Max Linsky paternity leave continuous we continue to try to be adults without the Father Figure in our lives America versus the show 11 come out but we keep trying all we can do is try what about I guess you did interview to guess I did interview Gaston I talked to Lisa brennan-jobs who yes is Steve Jobs's daughter and has a memoir out about that topic by the book is really different than what you might expect and I think perhaps leafwood her publisher in the marketing machine might expect it's a really intense and deep Memoir about flawed families and flawed people and
00:01:58it was the book I was eager to read in a salacious way and ended up find the book to be very different than I expected and I actually was much more interesting than I expect I really enjoyed it yeah it's got enough attention for a certain aspect but there's a lot more to it yeah and she was really game to talk about it like Atlanta think she was maybe eager to talk about it as a writer rather than someone trying to get a pull quote out of it so thanks to her for being so open about this is not easy stuff to talk about Kevin sponsors this week yeah there is a spot to this weekend earned it right at you cuz I don't I don't think I've ever heard you haven't I was going to say welcome back Evan thank you I was back last week if you were back last week but I missed you I missed you I missed and missed your episodes I very much enjoy
00:02:58my Dad episode you did last time and even if no one in our audience noticed that you took nine months off I was going to shout I noticed and I appreciate you I wasn't her I wasn't her that they are in a few if you notice something and you wanted to tell people about it how would you do that why I think I would do with a MailChimp newsletter and I actually think that you're 9 months Hiatus it's a good model for how people involved in big projects they come and go on the internet and sometimes you don't know when they have seen the outer when they disappear for 9 months while it is feared well they were reading a book and when they come out with that but it's great to receive an email newsletter about it so I encourage everyone to start a MailChimp newsletter today so people can follow you your whole life and what you're up to email no longer exist
00:03:48thank you Mel channel is Aaron with Lisa brennan-jobs
00:04:04so I had to become an introvert to write this book I'm not an introvert I had to basically cover my head go into a tent go into a cave to write this book
00:04:15stop sending acquaintances birthday presents stop remembering their birthdays remember that I cared about them but basically stop contacting them because otherwise I could not write this book as of now I'm like me like a coal miner blinking light welcome and jobs farmer extrovert and introvert you've been broken by your own but okay let's talk about who you were before you wrote this but like what were you doing with your life before you ruined it by writing this bucks I was Consulting at or Consulting I mean that's an odd thing to say I didn't have a steady job but they paid me to work at a design company at the design company in New York called two-by-four and before that I've been working at a design company in London call pentagram other room designer of the Beatles logo work
00:05:15so they might have designed the Beatles logo but that wasn't the guy that I was working with I was working with gray talented man Daniel while and my dad actually helped me get that job which is another embarrassing fact among many that I will share with you today what was your writing MFA at Bennington which was a non residential program started in London and then finish in New York and I knew I had been dragging my feet about getting an MFA because I was worried about spending the money to my mom was like go get a graduate degree you need to graduate degree and I thought like no I can write without it but then I did as summer at Skidmore because it was something and I met Phillip lopate who is a nonfiction writer and a memoirist and just a brilliant man and a dear friend and a mentor and I was like oh right you need the people around you to write I'm who understand what you're going through or what you're trying to do or something or hold a candle of Hope for you for many many many years
00:06:15you do this thing that no one thinks you'll finish so then I did my MFA it by Pennington usually when people come on here they will I would say generally like graduate writing education gets kind of a bad rap on the show but I usually tell people who are interested that physically putting yourself in a place with a single focus and a bunch of other people have that singular focus is probably the actual purpose of the MFA in a certain places to give you the space to seriously right when you're not physically there like how do you do an MFA when you're not adding them fa so the thing I liked about it the tuition wasn't so high and so comparatively and that means that people of all different ages all different socioeconomic groups can afford it sunny outside Scholarships in different non residential programs have scholarship to all these other people can afford it and they have
00:07:15a variety of different experiences and it turns out nonfiction You is kind of not useful to just live in a bubble because then you don't have much to write about and then the way that works the way that also works says
00:07:28but some of the residential programs you have these critiques that happen often and I thought oh gosh if I am subject to frequent critiques I will not be able to write again and I talked with other people who'd been to programs like that and he just stopped them up for several years because it's yours would have confronted with all your writing flaws with that frequency I think it's hard so the great thing about the non-residential mfah is it only happened twice a year twice a year you had a critique with all the other students and then what you did is every month you sent in a thick packet of writing to your teacher and they sent it back with all of their scribblings all over it you working on what would become this book when you are doing them if that will take me I said it took me seven years but I finished my MFA certainly earlier than seven years ago I say about 7 is that true seven years ago 2011 I'm not sure maybe a 2010 I'm not sure yes the essay that is in here
00:08:26that's more of a sort of grounding essay that enables me to take different parts and magnify them and write about scenes without the reader being like but we don't understand where we are essay in there I did right during my MFA like this happen at this point this happened at this point things that happened before I was born that I just had to do research on and write about and let people know what time magazine article came out my mother was very upset because my father said he wasn't my father then you know that he got kicked out of apple then you're the stuff that isn't honestly particularly interesting to me because I wasn't there I don't remember it but I felt I needed to write it in writing that essay was a little tricky because as a kind of journalistic task that unless had to be infused with my own sensibility and had to not feel gross and also is difficult because I looked up some records at the courthouse of this case about my paternity and found things that my mother hadn't told me not because you've been keeping them a secret I don't think that because
00:09:25she hadn't known like they the state sued my father and try to figure out if he was my father cuz he deny paternity they actually subpoenaed the dental records of my mother's ex-boyfriend things like that it was in the case of reading to this case and I was in London living at the time and so my mother went to the courthouse to get it from you which was really nice of her but I think it pushed her buttons a little because we ended up getting in some sort of screaming fight and she only sent me half the papers and I had to ask her for the other house so they were emotional things I was going through about this I realize now that was just sort of the tip of the iceberg of kind of trudging through this molasses he sludge of trying to come to terms with my feelings about the past and I read a lot of the work that people are working on and a lot of people are writing about their families or their childhood in their past in this kind of way and I usually want to be like no don't do it yourself
00:10:25is that interesting and you've got this hook that makes people interested in the story and it it's almost like a very cool magicians track that I've been sort of wrapped in and then I'm like in this experience of what it's like to be a child when you started like writing about this when you were younger what was your attitude when you first started writing about your past like what did you think about the idea of writing another book first if I just show my writing skill in other ways other things about some other topic dear Lord
00:11:08I could then write about this later for money people I think they want to do this and for you it feels like sort of a blessing and a curse thing where it's like very obvious what someone would want you to write about and I assumed that for you as like that feeling of mortification of upgrade like people want to hear about the one thing I really don't want to talk about completely
00:11:34I was trying to write about anything else and Phillip lopate who is at my MFA program he was saying yes maybe you need to just write another book about some other topic first and I thought yes please but was coming up with this topic and I think that comes up for a lot of writers write a lot of novelists write the story of themselves in the Met either publish it or they put it in the drawer a lot of memories I mean locate himself George Orwell Baldwin all of these personal essays that are kind of like bite-sized Memoir by people who have
00:12:10not been afraid to investigate themselves as characters get Under the Skin of Their Own deviousness and then This Boy's Life where he and I've I've said this and other interviews during the time that the more he the more he's devious Netbook the more he's not a and bad the more I left him and so all these things were my examples for writing about oneself but then but then it just feels like I'm playing to the I'm playing to the wrong crowd when I write about myself right of course it's like you know poor little rich girl or whatever that I'm complaining about the fact that the men were I write will have an audience probably because people be interested in Steve Jobs but oh they might be terribly disappointed because I think they're not going to find out what's new about him you know and then I was hoping you would be terribly boring on the page I was thinking of my mother will be really interesting cuz she actually is very interesting on the page and my father
00:13:10very boring not that he was boring in life but sometimes he's very quiet and sometimes he was probably not terribly interesting to me but then on the page it didn't work that way my mother wasn't always as interesting as I assumed she would be and my father was absolutely completely interesting on the page which is a dynamic not only in the book but in the actual relationships of the people in the box where you write about your mother's resentment at like doing all the work and all these things and then the praise landing on someone else for you know you becoming a real adult and I think some of that was was adolescence right I mean I'm trying to get multiple perspectives in here so when I'm writing from an adolescent perspective I am the woman and I am the Adolescent I mean we have all these ages inside of us all the time we have you know it some and I feel like some people have more of the seven-year-old and some people have more of these 11 year old and if you spend enough time with them and you can see what age
00:14:10is sparkling out of their adult Persona or what ages and some people argue that you also have your future ages inside of you maybe that's a little too not so but you do see sometimes a seven-year-old music goodness you seem like you're 40 so I think that when I'm an adolescent and my mother is complaining about my jumping ship to the fancy people and other people taking credit for all of her work it's also just adolescent trying to get as far away from her mother as possible so you can be sure you won't become her and then also there was a time in the book I didn't feel it was pointing stop the double perspective of like when I'm going over to my father's house and it's a much colder environment and so they're giving me less attention and not I'm not the center of the show over there and maybe I feel bad because I don't know who I am over there and I feel like maybe I'm not so important and I stay there long enough that I kind of get used to that roll and then I go back to my mother's house cuz I'm going back and forth to this point again as his teenage head and my mother is
00:15:10doting she's kind of following me around adoring me how can I make you this she wants to make sure I get enough protein she wants to say goodnight to me she wants to read me a story and I looked down on her a little you know and I'm not saying when you're reading that that I actually look down on my mother for adoring me I'm remembering looked down upon her as an adolescent so there's a lot of perspectives here and I think that it was going to say another thing which is that I had an editor actually before this editor cuz I moved I change publishing houses for the end of Atlantic yes it was with penguin press it was with an got off with a really brilliant and we went out to lunch one day and I I felt I was taking too long and I didn't imagine this book would take so long
00:15:57and and I need to apologize again for being out of touch and apologize again for still not having my book done and it's kind of embarrassing you start to avoid your editor a little bit at this point I think it be in three in three and a half years maybe for her and I've been working at it before I had my book contract to so and she said you know it's kind of rare that a writer is born into one of these families
00:16:25so if I were you I take my time and get it right
00:16:39hey I'm going to pause things here briefly to give you a word from Skagen who are sponsoring this week's episode of Skagen make watches and jewelry inspired by the people who've become known as the happiest people on Earth the Danish Danish culture focuses on what's meaningful being part of a community making time for relationships and living in the moment and that is all reflected in their watches as well as a minimalist sense of design reflects the less-is-more culture it comes from the bat men's watches women's watches jewelry even smart watches actually sent me one and I generally feel like you make a decision to either have a nice-looking watch or Smartwatch I do not feel that way about the Skagen watch they sent me it's the kind of thing that I think will look good now and 10 years from now so if you're looking to pick up something like that and make it part of your life which I do recommend is kind of help me stop looking at my phone a little bit I get a Skagen watch you can visit skagen.com get special discount
00:17:39sign up for emails again Skagen. Com thank you Skagen I here I am back with Lisa brennan-jobs
00:17:57I understand also why it must have taken you forever to write this book because just a very active like going back to being like I would have no idea how to write about myself as a child I don't really even remember how my brain worked matter anything like that that you were grass to the point of the Simplicity of the child when you're right about the child my sentences would get simple my words would get simple and I couldn't cast any illumination on that time. Because I was in it and it's simplistic way or I was out of it I couldn't sort of dip in half way make it semi-transparent the way you need to if you are going to illuminate it and it was very frustrating and I couldn't get out of this place which was also another reason I have had to get rid of my phone and had to get rid of my internet because
00:18:47it reminds you of who you are when you're not so slow and you just don't want to spend spend time in this slow on child's face not because my childhood was so hard although there were times that were hard really hard
00:19:02but because inhabiting the mind of a child and trying to open it up to an adult perspective it's just this strange kind of awful kind of work that I would maybe it's a little bit like learning a language for at the beginning you just feel dumb and you can't but people have said also you know you can read this book as the story of a famous man or you can read this book as the coming-of-age story of a girl and of course against-the-odds what I'm hoping for is a people read the story of the coming of age of a girl in terms of how they felt like I had very little margin of error for this book and I didn't even realize how little margin of error I had an interesting and I don't read the reviews I don't read them because we have a baby a little baby at 5 months old and we just moved and if I read the reviews even if they're positive if they're wrong
00:19:59if they're not what I meant then I can throw me off and so I just can't read them but I do understand from the little Snippets that I have very little margin of error because as soon as I let my foot off the pedal it becomes a Steve Jobs story it's not like you can remove everything that those people are looking for a from the book yet I take the book as a series of very distinct choices about like what kind of a moment belongs in this book and what kind of a moment less than blondes Facebook and I want to talk to you about like how you ended up there cuz I assumed that from what I understand from what you've been saying I didn't just happen spontaneously there was no like I just have an instinct about exactly what what to do here did you do research interviews like how did you start construction
00:20:59thanks what could go in the buck before you even decided what should go in the buck my mother kept on saying you have to come to terms with your history or you will repeat it you have to understand your history understand what you said or you will repeat it she kept on repeating what I had a boyfriend who was wonderful but probably wasn't the right partner for me and her point was if you want to have a family someday that goes off into a different direction for the future
00:21:35if you want to be conscious about your life and choose it you're going to have to understand what you went through was the way to do that not say intensive therapy I've always been a writer and I think my mother is an artist and she believes in the transformative model which is you go you have to go through it to get to the other side which means you have to do it with your art to transform and then you get through to the other side
00:22:03and she does that through ART and so I imagine she thought I should terms of therapy I mean I talk about therapy in the book and how it's been so helpful and I do you know I have seen a therapist you know off and on for years and have loved that but the stories kept on coming up for me so that it then then it was like not therapy I guess it's art you know I wish it was therapy I wish it was therapy but it was Art so I'm imagining you talked to some of the people in this book so I got this I got a contract from penguin press based on basically a few scenes including the scene where my mother and I are stealing cash for my father's house I say stealing he said we could get the couch but then we showed up when he wasn't there so we had to kind of my mother had to kind of break into his house and I was watching her so I got this contract based on basically a few stories and then my terrible secret which I told my boyfriend at the time was I don't remember enough to write a whole book in the end I probably wrote seven book
00:23:03more than seven bucks I remembered so much what happened is if you sit down at Bob's library for long enough writing terrible sentences and terrible teens terrible meaning badly written each scene called up another scene it sort of Giggles the memory and brings up conjures up another scene because you remember the carpet in one house and then you think of the carpet another and then you remember the Halloween story for my house and when you remember the Halloween story from that house you remember the costume from the following year and then you remember your father was with you the following year and then you remember that you step on his heels and he snapped at you and then you remember that he was breaking up with his girlfriend on off and then you remember the trip to Hawaii and the only thing that ends up in the book is the trip to Hawaii but you find yourself immersed in a Whole Net in a constellation of stories each one connecting to another
00:23:55and it was amazing how much I remembered until sometimes I meet people mistake goodness I can't even remember what I had for lunch how can you have remembered so much and I think oh sit down for a while writing badly and you will remember and remember and remember and some things weren't terribly Pleasant to remember and some things we were incredibly I mean I say sometimes it was so wonderful to spend time with my young parents oh my God I'm older than them I'm older than they were then now and so I get to spend time with them as this woman who knows she can close the computer and go out and have dinner and I got to spend time with them as a girl then
00:24:36but without all of the uncertainty at the edges that I had then one of your kid and your your summoning these memories of childhood you don't actually know everything your kid in fact you actually no way less than the adults around you about what's going on in this case where it seems like before keeping things from you and there was political drama that was sort of happening above your head so how did you go about like comparing your memories to the memories of these other people who may be do more about what was happening during those times than you did so I looked at my old journals over my child not so heavy I can't believe I'm starting a journal I don't know what to write. I had moments moments of being prolific in my journal and I think sometimes those were moments of high emotion so it was good to go back and look at that mommy just my rage
00:25:36not being able to eat more sugar goes on for pages but there was one moment I looked at my journal and I found my mother was dating this man named Ron who is very kind to us and Corky definitely quirky I met up with him to do research for this book and he said all I made all my mistakes on you and I thought goodness thanks a lot I remembered you were really nice butt in the journal I had written something like I love my Dad Steve Jobs not Ron I love my dad I love him! I love him! I love him you know and then there was a sticker from next that he'd given me pasted on am I kind of remembered you in this kind of young handwriting slanted but I remembered this Bloom of
00:26:24just joy and also a feeling of luck like oh I didn't have a dad when I was younger I kind of met him when I was 8 but now I've got the best one so it's okay you know he's handsome he's famous he's young he's got a Porsche like oh my God I lived for so long in this world but now I found a jewel and is mine so it's okay and I'm a wizard yeah it felt like that and then so the other thing I did to look at journals talked with a lot of people and my dad's ex-girlfriend my mom my friends at the time went to Palo Alto and wrote for several months
00:27:17to smell the smells and drive the drives go back to the Cafe's go back to the schools and then the only thing I did is my ex-boyfriend help me he was really into Super sticky notes because you can put them on the wall and then they just stay there for weeks so you can take your time with the stories that are missing are you can just sometimes wake up early in the morning and just days at it and try to think about anything you might be missing and putting it all in order that way and then you could stop by for so long trying to figure out the organizational scheme of the sticky note timeline I be like okay green is like a memory blue is like a fixed event there's a do as reporters that a writer I mean he writes scripts the sounds like they are and they're not like book writing at all their their structure and their picture structure so it's
00:28:17three different but it's very useful for outlines and the other thing is just for me one word will conjure up a whole week of memories and so it can be like again like molasses moving through these stories but for him it was just one word one story easy put it up next so he helped me with moving quickly through the timeline I could have otherwise not because of the color of the stickies but because of the sort of dredging up of memories could have taken months or years I mean it's just too long and then I compared it against code events and putting it in a timeline of known events made me able to structure better like I'm bouncing on trampoline with my father in subscene I don't know him very well I'm terrified about people being able to see my underwear cuz I'm wearing shorts and I'm self-conscious because my father was awkward turns out I trip over things all the time I can dance but I trip when I'm walking and he had a bitter
00:29:17quality to I don't know if you could dance my mom said he was a bit awkward who knows but we're on the trampoline together and then I was able to call his ex-girlfriend and find out when that party was cuz it was his birthday party and then I can put it on the timeline to next with next presentation when did I move in how old was I so when I put it on again soon own timeline which is very lucky I had I could rout out some time changes or I then it created some third things I didn't realize were there when events that I hadn't realized we're up against each other we're up against each other so that helped to and then and there was some more emotional timelines like I mean I don't know if you could beat all the time live at the Amour emotional arcs yes I'm sitting there with the timeline with my ex boyfriend my boyfriend at the time and he says and I've written a lot of parts about my adolescence and I'm basically trying to get you to feel bad for me cuz I feel really bad and I feel really ashamed
00:30:17about something was clearly wrong with me that I wasn't more lovable
00:30:24and I can find a bunch of things that are wrong
00:30:28because I was a teenager and and because I'm human but I feel bad and also the other thing is like this famous person that the world loves I'm not immune to The Shame of the fact that he's not totally always in love with me so he's okay what's wrong with me and so that is a deep shame and I would like to say it's gone but it's still there
00:30:55and so what I'm doing with my adolescence as I'm writing it so that I'm hoping I'm trying to manipulate the reader in those words to feel bad for me you know we didn't have heat downstairs so I'm living without heat in the winter and we didn't he would really buy a couch that kind of made me babysit a lot he wouldn't buy me an extra pair of jeans so my ex-boyfriend was saying he was looking at this adolescent map and he read some of the Adolescent stories and he said Lisa
00:31:26you know I've known you your whole life and you kind of get what you want yo I'm not a wilting Violet I kind of make things work for myself and he's like I'm just not buying it I'm just not buying it
00:31:43and that was very useful because I realized the story I was trying to tell wasn't the truth like okay so we're dad in a fairly warm area and didn't get the whole heating installed and change but like really wasn't that bad you know what I think I could have changed rooms if I wanted to and worst case scenario I could have said I was pretty forceful I could have said you know hey Steve you're not getting heat but I'm at it I'm out of here I'm going to my mom's house by you know I had power all the time so I had to go back to this with another part of
00:32:20creating a story I had to go back and investigate my own version of the story against
00:32:26this new Awakening of all right all right I was manufacturing and creating the story at every step how did I do that
00:32:36and it was interesting because before I did that in my Adolescence in the stories I Disappeared kind of like where is Lisa that was what happened to you know for many drops in the beginning okay but we really don't know about this character who is she and when I finally realized that I'd had agency all along started thinking you know
00:32:58maybe I was just a kid maybe I can be devious maybe maybe like in This Boy's Life the worse I am the more people who are reading it won't think badly of me but will actually like me I mean who knows it kind of freed me up and then I got into more stories that I hadn't been willing to tell or even admit to myself like the Harvard story which is toward the end when I'm kind of Scrappy and finagling my way into Harvard basically as much as well as I can and not buy the book not by the rules and that's where I thought I can't tell that story I mean anything but that story because that everyone will know that I mislike manipulative Scrappy person
00:33:39but then you said it down on paper your most shameful story and hey it's not so bad
00:33:45there's two forms of subjectivity it seems like to me about creating a book like this the first one was subjectivity is it it's your writing about your own experience which actually many people triangulated that experience and then also this book is not 10,000 PHS it's not every seeing you possibly remember for your childhood so there's a process of editing which is its own form of manipulation it's which scenes do you show in the movie at I'm pleased to find out that you were living with a screwdriver all day in this cuz it it seems It's a screenwriter kind of processor about 2 hours long don't got room for this is not going to end when you go to college because this is a coming-of-age book about my twenties but that was the point when the book basically had to end because that is the turning point when you move from being a part of a family to going out on your own and the next turning point doesn't happen for me probably until I'm 40 and I have
00:34:44baby or 39 and so I had to end it there I think there's also a form of writing a memoir of yourself as an adult when you're an adult is a 15 as a form of indulgences by writing about a childhood like this like well there's a universal element to that that makes it more appealing to lie to me as a reader is Sara Lee don't have control when you're a child see you get the benefit of the doubt so you can be a very bad child and you still get the benefit of the doubt I want to talk about that the subjectivity of a child's experience though so you have this memory and then you call up let's say your father's ex-girlfriend and her name is Tina and she says
00:35:34that's not how I remember that at all you know yeah I assume that your memory does not overlap exactly with all these people's memories particularly about things like how you view characters like someone like your mother and the story and stuff like that like every single time I've called someone up and talk to them about the story or shared with them apart of the books and what I've been close with the neighbors and high school the librarian in Middle School who didn't find it until she found it on a a Librarians book conference and apparently she grabbed it and found herself in it and then she came back the next day and said it's exactly the way I remember it really yes even during the interview process before you dread not just when you would say I like Ham reading about this this is what I remember at Stanford
00:36:22and before I even brought it up and started talking about he said remember that night when we all play chicken and he would sort of ADD and embellish that memory or remind me of which lawn it was
00:36:37but the memories I had I mean it's funny cuz I'm like am I being defensive because this has been so slightly called into question I'm not I'm not follow the media narrative Arc of this book that closely tried to fill me in on places that I don't know and then when I've been fortunate enough to go on these programs and they quoted people I've had to learn about things I didn't know but I guess what I would say is no I got
00:37:15weirdly resounding yes that is exactly what I remember but then and I did bring up earlier
00:37:22the time that my filmmaker ex-boyfriend was saying no I knew you this isn't the shading that's correct the perspective and the perspective changes everything because once you once you have an active role even if it's devious and something you have power and it unlocks it but I didn't have the experience or anybody said my memory was different in addition to the library on my neighbors The Neighbors when I was in high school they just wrote me an email because they just read it and they said if you ever need anybody to vouch for you it's exactly as we remember it
00:38:00my mother has said the facts are true but I would have a slightly different interpretation or a very different interpretation about certain things once she said when she started reading and she said it was a roller coaster for her and I I gave it to her before it was published I give it to most people in the family before it was published which my editor was sort of like are you nuts but I thought I had to go through this with my mother first and I knew she would read it and I was getting texts in the middle of the night but she said you're absolutely correct about the number of houses we've lived in and then I sent her the list because I had carefully compiled from our many conversations I've had an end everything and other people on this list of the 13 places we live before I was 7 and I said okay great let me send you the list I've got you tell me what I've got wrong and then she said oh no that's right you know and then she said no it's not true we didn't have furniture it's not true and it upset her deeply I think because she thought that was a statement of her parenting when I did too
00:39:00I didn't mean it that way and she was saying we got a bedroom set from your grandparents but I said mom why did we get the bedroom set was it because we had no furniture and I remember it had no furniture I remember and then she said okay but one thing that happened there was a time when I talked to Tina my dad's ex girlfriend and she said do you remember when we went to Hawaii that time your dad took your you on his lap and was pointing out body parts cuz she said he'd he'd even maintain to her that we weren't related but that were in Hawaii together and he said our fingernails are the same look look how we have the same kind of toes look we both have our eyebrows the same and this is actually a moment I guess when he's claiming me
00:39:47and I remembered it pretty well but I don't remember it as if I was there but because she talked about that scene and I remember him doing things like that and holding me and I remembered something like that and mostly I remember the you stop talking I want to go eat dessert so I wrote that scene with a little less memory then some of the scenes I wrote based on a conversation with her and knowing that I wanted to put it in because God what a metaphor in this like it's certainly like when I hear the people reacting or whatever it's like everything is in how you interpret that shading and everything about the buck like a private detective could have probably compiled the significant facts of your story but it's so much about the tone and shading and almost literally at times how you here like sentences the people
00:40:47saying the guy I think about at the very beginning of the very first chapter your father says that you smell like a toilet and everything about that moment is about how you read it and how the shading comes through and I think the book taken as a whole is about you shading your mother and father and and showing how you remember them how what how you interpreted their actions and words and interpret in to my own at my own Peril the other thing I wanted to say about pulling together
00:41:26this book is that Publishers now don't hire fact-checkers maybe they'd never did but I did hire a fact Checker and he went through the book and was able to correct me on a few I don't know you must have been nine here not ate us like that or he would find a fact as he was looking things up and he would say oh did you know this you should put this in the same no no no that's passed your brief yeah I remember tell me what to put in Publisher and I remember there was like a couple fact-checkers who were like zealous to the point where I was like you kind of like grinding an axe with this like note at a certain point I think we were only doing fact-checking for things where that like legal flagged it so and I assumed it like to be a book from Eagle the publisher is do yeah yeah but I wanted to do fact-checking and I know that for example the biography of My Father which I had not read Walter isaacson's book was not fact-checked it would have taken
00:42:26months my book took a month-and-a-half to fact-check I think he took her mother to have to go through it cuz he had so many different things to look up and down my own subjective experience obviously is not send it back check but there are a lot of things like how long it takes to get from one Cafe to the other when you're on skates that a fact Checker check having the facts locked almost gives you the freedom to do that shading and that subject. Cuz you don't want people criticizing the facts and saying and also her feelings are like invalid or that the shading and that the tone is invalid because the facts are wrong it's almost like I like it wouldn't in any way bother me to learn that it was eight not nine but I understand that that's like almost part of a larger thing that you're trying to pull off here yes I felt that if it wasn't as accurate as it could be factually that it would invalidate the truth of the emotions of coming of age
00:43:25because especially because of this particular circumstance were there someone who is not only mine but is everyone and everyone has a claim many people perhaps have a greater claim on him than I do I talk about you know when he after he died people coming up to me and saying he was like a father to me and thinking like because maybe you and yours and that makes me sad and angry and chastened so I had to fact check it but I got a note recently from my cousin she's in a c earlier where my father is berating her
00:44:06even though she's just a girl at a restaurant she's being a little loud she ordered a hamburger I think he must have arrived you know there's many things that happened beyond the pages of this book that I don't know about maybe that day he found out something horrible at work maybe he broken up with someone I have no idea all I know is he arrived out of sorts and he yelled at a girl in a restaurant and my mother and I remember this but when I called my cousin to ask her about it she said I just don't remember my childhood I think I must have blanked it out like that scene and other things so I wrote it without her and she recently texted me and she said she was reading the scene and she was crying and a lot of the things that my father was berating her for she said she felt insecure about herself for I felt so badly just I said over I'm so sorry I'm sorry to have started up and she said no no emotions are okay Lisa it's okay I thought oh gosh she's
00:45:06more than I have I'm glad you brought up that scene cuz if there's one seeing that like toes like the very edge tonally of like can you sympathize with this perk character that might have been the same for me in the book it's a low point point and then it was bad and my mother and I remember it was in Bravo phono and it was that right and
00:45:38the way that you've depicted this scene you must have known like that there was going to be a low point right all the lights and darks and I hope
00:45:53sometimes the light receives because not knowing my father's charm and his dearness his Sweetness in person when he was that way
00:46:07perhaps it's hard
00:46:10not to gloss over some of those scenes as a reader
00:46:15or maybe I am as I think some people have felt reading this book sort of a pressed without knowing it
00:46:25but we can love complicated people we can also accept that there are dualities inside of people here I mean I contain some of that so not only did I do I did I love him do I love him but he is dearness and sensitivity was not just something I observed it was something that connected to something in me and so of course I will not of course but I was willing to keep on trying for those times because they were
00:47:02profoundly meaningful and then you see someone who'd completely fails like in this scene with my cousin where he's
00:47:11excoriating a girl
00:47:14or where he feels with me but then you see that he is sometimes a failure and then he keeps on trying and how it wasn't like I think of him the way other people do necessarily as the sort of shining success although I think he's been written about as someone who does things like he did with my cousin I think so I was wondering like what is so shocking about this for people and I think the only difference is here it's visceral and also I'm I'm his daughter so it's closer in two double was like screaming about get like people at work before but now we're like first grounding a reader in the experience of being a child and then saying and here's the low Point here's a low point from that perspective and I think it's a testament to the effectiveness of your writing that people are disturbed by it but I noticed
00:48:14getting my very tiny media like I remember Vanity Fair did an excerpt from the book right yes and they together a bunch of things for a heightened sense exactly what I wonder about in your experiences in the book that is a low point but it's it's a moment in a longer Symphony and if you take them these moments and take them out by themselves they mean something different when you're saying that you wanted to show a duality of this person but there's no Duality if you only show one moment if you show only the low point that The Duality is messed that was maybe the lucky thing about the Vanity Fair thing coming out first and about the profile in the New York Times which was also not balanced coming out first by the time the book came out and some people started reading it that stuff which was is the most shocking stuff we've already gotten that out of the way most of it and then we could look at the book which
00:49:14much more balanced and people do have low points again this may be a more dramatic low Point than a lot of people have but not sure if you were really to get into it I'm not sure if this is more dramatic than most of the other thing I was worried about was my mother I was worried about
00:49:32there's a scene where she's screaming in a car and I think I was four or four and a half and she's screaming and she said when we talked about it after I'd written we talked about it she said I remember when I was screaming she wasn't screaming at me she was screaming at life she was screaming at the world but she was swearing and she was screaming and spittle was flying and she was slamming the dash it was raining and we were in the car and I was terrified you know I was only for so she said I remember at that time that you were going to remember it later so I was scared to put that scene in because I I wasn't sure if the reader know my mother well enough by that point where they just going to hate her and of course with the scene with my cousin in the restaurant when my father is yelling at her I was scared to put in that scene
00:50:22because that was a low Point without having the dark's in a light I cannot create a picture of my life my childhood did have lows and highs I would I would do it again the hives were extraordinary and so were the lows I like that I enjoy being in it at many points
00:50:46so I'm trying to give you the joy with the complexity but some people have felt that I don't even understand my own story as if I didn't craft it is if I didn't decide okay I got to put that scene in I know it's dark but if I don't put that scene in then I'm not being real with you about what happened I'm not giving you the relief of the joy because you didn't experience the terrible sadness of the dark arts
00:51:18toilet scene for example yes it's been so interesting I
00:51:24with Vanity Fair they let me be a part of what excerpt they chose that was part of the stipulation in the contract of pieces from different parts of the book and they really weird format they really wanted to lease his hand at the end this reveal about the Lisa computer at the end so that was my compromise which maybe I shouldn't have done it's an interesting thing cuz you get control you say in the contract Lisa get to control what exit goes in there but it's very clear if I don't shoot them and give them anything they want then it's not going to go and I felt like well if they want the Lisa scene at the end it's kind of gimmicky I'm kind of embarrassed by it but probably not that many people are going to rain so I think okay we'll have that scene again and then what they had in the beginning what they originally wanted
00:52:18was maybe more than half of explication this essay I'd written to just give you a grounding so that I can write the scenes of my book but the problem with an essay and explication was this isn't what the book is the book is not an article the book is not a journalistic article it is a memoir
00:52:41so I wanted to start with the beginning then cuz I felt like it's made to pull you in I'm a character I'm devious I'm not just a witness let's start with the beginning and then let stand then I just decided it was take all the different scenes that are dealing with this issue of the computer
00:52:57turns out they're all quite dramatic so I helped pull together that excerpt thinking that at least you had some continuity and at least it was interesting but I didn't understand how much it would get
00:53:14how much interest would get and how much iron should get how much passion and how much people would feel even from this tiny excerpt that they knew my story and then how much they would excerpt I didn't realize the excerpt would be exerted by which is crazy so the book isn't out yet and suddenly people are deciding they know my family and I are taking little bits of it excerpts of X so put the toilet scene it's interesting because some people have said oh my God it's so shocking is a horrible and I had to say for the record I did smell like a toilet I was spraying myself with this rose water as I explained and it was turning it was going off on me cuz it was natural Rose and
00:53:56so by the time I said goodbye to my father I must have smelled horrible and so to some degree he was just in a very kind way telling me how I smell a lot in the Conway and an Abrupt way but he was a person who was going to tell you the way it was part of the character that your building over time it's this is what I guess what I feel about you need the time to get it out which is like that is setting up like that you're telling us what is the kind of person this person is on their deathbed and this is also the kind of person this person was as a father and his 20s you know that there is a continuity to all these experiences and that's what being in a family as like as it's like this incredible building a pond of experiences where you can read someone telling you like about you smell like a toilet as like both normal and also as like that really captures you know
00:54:56it was hurtful I mean I'm going to visit my sick father hoping we're going to have some sort of resolution feeling so insecure that I'm doing all these weird things like spraying myself with someone else is rosewater and stealing bits and Bobs around the house and then he says that I'm what I'm hoping for is of course that we're going to have some sort of Hollywood ending but what I'm terrified about is he's going to say you smell like a toilet and he's going to be right and I smell like a toilet which imagine how shameful that is and then he's going to die and that's going to be it and so I'm avoiding him more and more because I know he might say something like that and that might be it you know so it wasn't a joyful moment but at the same time
00:55:41it also wasn't particularly cruel of him this book becomes the reader is now but sometimes hearing their reflection on my life feels very off for painful I wonder if and I and I wonder if this is something you thought about while you're working on the buck it's unusual to be writing an autobiographical Memoir in which there are competing products that tell portions of the same story I'm just thinking in the last few years I'm probably forgetting some but there's the Walter Isaacson book which was it a pretty big deal there was the movie that Aaron Sorkin wrote which you're a major character how did you regard all of the other noise while you're riding this but were you thinking about someone who already comes in with this knowledge or whatever did you have to wall yourself off from everything else Walter isaacson's book I didn't see Aaron sorkin's movie
00:56:41read the script
00:56:44apparently I am a major character in it even though I met with him
00:56:48for coffee three times and didn't talk about my family I heard that Walter isaacson's book was being made into a movie
00:56:57and I heard Aaron Sorkin was doing it and I had previously heard that Walter didn't catch me at all because I didn't talk to him and I heard worse than that that I was kind of cold and standoffish in the book and that's not who I am and I have been trying so hard even if I've been trying so strangely to have some sort of resolution with my father and to love him in some way that the idea that I was not visiting or that I was cold and standoffish in his book was wounding and so when I heard that there was a movie being made I sought out Sorkin and my whole goal was just for him to understand that I was a person so if he was going to put me in his movie hopefully as a small character that he would if he portrayed me badly he'd have his own conscience to contend with that was Michael I want you to understand I'm a person here I'm a person I'm a person and I loved my father and
00:57:58but anyway so I didn't see these movies and things I didn't engage with them and I was thinking recently of that scene in my dad and I watched Pee-wee's Big Adventure and I was thinking at the end of Pee-wee's Big Adventure they make a movie of PeeWee of the life of Pee Wee and Dottie says Pee Wee aren't you going to see the movie about yourself and he says I don't have to see it. E I lived it you know in the movie of course is nothing like him or some sort of strapping lad playing Peewee but why would I need to read this biography about someone I knew it just all so frankly it just highlights the all the parts of my father I didn't know yeah I am the last person who would get to talk about his
00:58:39business life as business life seems so fun I wish I could have been involved in it I mean I talk in the book about the end yet he says he's apologizing to me for not being around and he says I owe you one I owe you one which is such a weird phrase I never really heard him say it before that but he kept on repeating it and I was trying to give him some sort of relief now he's Susan and he's waited to apologize to his wasting away in his no argument I can give
00:59:09but I say to him maybe next time if there is a next time I mean who knows we don't know maybe there are other lives we can be friends and I meant it as a kind of knife stab like friends thanks but also he had friends dear friends and I I didn't get to be one of them this time and some reading The Isaacs and I thought would bring up so many feelings for me not only of part I did know about my father but also this whole world that I didn't know about that I want to read that while I'm writing my own book and also I'm not a Steve Jobs junkie like yes he was my father but
00:59:47I imagined had he not been I wouldn't have been the person that would have read The Isaacs and anyway or seen the movie my father died pretty suddenly a few years ago and he had an obituary in the New York Times like I could tell that it was important to people in his life that I pushed you at this obituary and he was a geneticist in the scientist and the New York Times, man was trying to fact-check the thing as like I'm sorry I don't know anything about his War I got I like I was like I was like I feel bad I should have paid more attention to genetics but I expect I'd like to hear the phone numbers of a bunch of his colleagues I have no idea like what he was doing all this time with you would travel through or four months of the year and I'm staying in the hotel I have this weird flash where I'm like why this was like three or four months of the year every you prefer him what was he doing in this hotel did he watch TV but I don't
01:00:47yeah with what that why wasn't there I think almost that's the healthiest relationship of a child and parent is when the child to some degree is so involved in their own life they're not obsessed with their father's life and there was something interesting about having a famous father that people assumed that I was obsessed with his life were particularly interested in the details of his life that didn't involve me press gossip following I also am not talented particularly that way there were things that he did that I was independently interested in eye like design I find it interesting I like Aesthetics I like Gardens I Like Houses construction architecture there were certain areas of interest that were fun sometimes we had a similar sense of humor but if it didn't overlap with me I wasn't pursuing it so that's the kind of selfishness you need to have your going to write a memoir later I guess this is not a biography of him this is a memoir
01:01:48what's an ultimately cathartic to do this to have this experience a lot of people when they're starting their MFA probably like you know you start the first story that then I'm going to write a whole book about that some Polish or whatever and it's like so few people actually realize that entire sequence of getting out their childhood in Mccormick who has been great he thought I was going to give up and I think a lot of the friends that I lost touch with just thought something had gone horribly wrong in my life because I just am not on Facebook and my phone is I leave it at a cafe so that I can think you know for some of the week at a time this made dating very difficult actually very difficult but you leave your phone at a cafe I left it at a cafe down the street I went in one day and I said hey you guys I know this is a weird thing but I can't right if I have my phone it's too much instant gratification
01:02:48patient you get to a hard sentence you realize your wedding crap and you want to look up the New York Times and what's happening because at least it feels somewhat productive you want to text someone or you want to look your email and you kind of can't give yourself that escaped the phone just provides Escape From Misery and you need to like burrow into the misery or I did I need his kind of just burrow into the sense of deep fail to get anywhere and was I getting anywhere who knows with a great business. Yeah I know but I I wish we had but I have another solution now so it was either the cafe for some as a week at a time but then later a poet friend of mine found on Amazon a food addiction lockbox a bear box I've been talking about this myself it's not the phone that I want to put in there but they're like 50 bucks you put they got a time lock on them
01:03:48expensive it is like I think it's like 50 well I think it's smaller ones are less customer reviews of those boxes the ones I was looking at is actually a clear one can I know what can't you just smash the box and they're like yeah in the box is like 50 bucks so you're creating basically a $50 fine every time broken this guy was like I've had 11 of these I've had to destroy 10 of them but it's like really improve my life my friend who found the solution was like they sell replacement bottoms you know if you smash it which is hilarious right that you do this thing to give yourself self control and then you couldn't even maintain I find there's something happens I bet it's physiological when I lock my phone away for a Time
01:04:48I think it's locked better get to work and you can see the pain with deep enthusiasm I run to my desk but it's really important to have a way to give yourself mental space it's like boredom I imagine for children like the Laughing kids want it to be bored but then get into it you fight your way out of it and that in turns out to be the process it's important I feel like that's sort of like a metaphor for that coming of age story is like need like you need to be board / humiliated / and / have a shity time to like emerge as an adult otherwise you're not emerging components of the chrysalis
01:05:37I didn't believe when I started this book and drafting I thought that this would come pouring out I didn't quite understand that it was going to come out bad first and I'd heard that Ira Glass thing that wonderful Ira Glass quote about you going to the Arts because you you have taste you understand what good writing is and then you get into it and that very thing that you had that ability to tell good from bad
01:06:05let you know that what you're creating is absolutely crap and you're telling us to catch up with your taste yeah and he's heard of employees you not to stop and I thought like many things that I was some sort of exception to this Rule and it turns out I am just absolutely the rule and I started out because emotionally I didn't know what I was writing and I didn't know who I was yet in this coming-of-age story my sentences didn't know who they were either and they were bad and I knew they were bad and I had written bad sentences for a while I had put myself in a place where I was
01:06:48without enough knowledge vulnerable enough that I revealed how bad I was and it was such a boogeyman it was such a monster I just wanted to run away screaming it's a funny way to think of it backwards that the privilege for you isn't so much being able to get a book deal as a first-time Rider out of the MFA but that the book deal forces you to not give up that the book deal that like having a true structure to do this book like makes you keep doing it in a way that would be really hard I think of no one was like planning to publish it or whatever at like forces you to get from point A to point B even if you're experiencing that like Ira Glass effect of like since this is your first is accountable for someone to be terrified of it gave me I think it's booked a lot of it was finding out trying to find out
01:07:47whether I was legitimate I think that was a deep shame is like I don't deserve to be here I wasn't wanted and I think this book would like a a struggle to find out why I deserve to exist and whether I deserve to exist I was thinking like it's like that I don't know this well enough to even talk about it but Jacob and the angel and it's like you won't let it go until it blesses you
01:08:14it felt like my sentences are still bad I don't know why I deserve to exist I don't know why I deserve to exist but I won't let this book go until I get my answer until I don't feel so bad all the time and so that's why I wasn't going to give up on doing this book there was it wasn't because I was accountable to an editor they hadn't paid me much I got to my first event was pretty high for as advanced as go I didn't realize it was actually too high and when I changed editors I actually insisted and got insisted on a much lower Advanced it's like a tense so the original Advance they hadn't paid me much of it they had paid me
01:09:05some of it what would usually happen as you would if you wanted to change editors your new Advanced would pay back your old advance advance was lower than your new advanced in some portion of the profits whatever they may be would pay back your old Advance what we actually did I just decided even before I had a new publisher that we would just pay them back and because we were doing it all at once and they would definitely get it I think we paid them back a little bit less of what they had given out but what they had given out was a smaller portion of the full amount and
01:09:38it wasn't that that wasn't what I was accountable to because what I was accountable to was as soon as I had an impression maybe somehow
01:09:49this book would help me understand who I was I wasn't going to let it go until it blessed me but but then I was trying to make it a book for other people so that was the start of final wishes that it's not just for me and a friend a very talented writer Jamie quatro actually helped me edit and she helped me cut a lot what got cut right now we're in a recording studio right with glass and some of the scenes it was like I was banging on the glass screaming again and again the same story because I didn't think you got it
01:10:30and she was quite Exquisite in her editing cuz she would say we got it cut the same thing again where I would conversations would go on to long and she would say okay by this point cut or you don't even some brush cleaning in between scenes where I would say the same thing again the same note within a scene cuz I would think maybe you didn't get it but you got it and the other things she did we would go to dinner sometimes and I would say oh and then this happened also and I would think it wasn't necessary to say write that down. You need that or she would say oh maybe that could go at the end
01:11:14and I would say you stink orona too embarrassing I can put it no it's not do it put it in you know so that sort of thing and then she had wonderful tips like you don't need to say left and right you can say just turned can I do a reading lesson rates confuse you and actually as a reader doesn't make sense is it more difficult in your opinion to edit writings that is autobiographical or Memoir this when someone says like that doesn't need to be there they're actually saying like remove this from your story of yourself and a independent third-party editor if we could lose that was incredibly emotional but but it was there was a lot of catharsis there when she would say you can cut this I got it and I would say but no I don't think you do have it do you have it what I'm trying to say is that she would say yeah I know and she would
01:12:15perhaps be able to stay even more eloquently what I was trying to communicate she would say this is how I'm feeling this is what I get when I read this
01:12:24and I could
01:12:26finally take a deep breath that I had communicated and I wasn't so alone
01:12:33but sometimes we would get in you know pretty heated discussions because I was so sure that she hadn't understood what I was trying to say and she would have to say no I have understood here's why the same thing with my editor at Grove Elizabeth Schmitz who is amazing and would edited to hold rafts with a pencil
01:12:53and they also included fight and there were things that she said you need to cut this and I couldn't know and she would say well it's your book ultimately it is your book but if she said something like you need to cut this scene and I knew it could not be cut then I knew I had more work to do in other words the cut wasn't the answer but there was something wrong
01:13:15where do you up where do you go from here now you can't do another one like this you don't have another you have another childhood to write about so what's next for you
01:13:27I don't know yet I write non-fiction and I'm so excited to not write about myself
01:13:37and that's all I can say now what from writing about yourself did you learn that you would bring to not reading about yourself like what from this experience of investigating childhood would you bring to a general nonfiction Praxis teething
01:13:54maybe the main thing was just how to write a book and there was something I read Joyce Carol Oates said something about
01:14:03I think it was Joyce Carol Oates that she was in the ocean
01:14:07anyway she was in the ocean I think was a novelist
01:14:11for a long time swimming without a view of land and when I came across that when I was writing this book oh so that's what it is right about because I am definitely feeling like there is no land in sight and I've been swimming for a really long time and I thought it was wrong and I had lost faith I would ever get to the land again I was going to get there somehow even if it took my whole life
01:14:36so I think for next time I'm hoping you don't teach creative project is its own thing you always think we'll know I know something so next time it won't be this so hard I read something Spielberg wrote something about that he said each time he thought he had it in the bag it wasn't a great movie he says that Jaws was everyday and new horrific terrifying lack of face disastrous event they never thought that it was going to be any good
01:15:12he said the movies where he wasn't worried about how was going to turn out where he had the script and all the training points and everything set up and everything was going to work like Jurassic Park 2 I think just weren't great so maybe each time
01:15:26you cannot avoid
01:15:29this horrific hurdle that is the creative process
01:15:34but having written a book I'm hoping I'll have a little more face next time that will give me some sort of sustenance when I'm out in the middle of the ocean
01:15:49thank you so much for the interview thank you so much for having me thank you that was fun
01:16:07thanks for listening also thanks to our editor Janelle pifer our intern Tyler McCloskey next to my co-host Max Linsky and Evan Ratliff thanks to our sponsors MailChimp and it writers in touch podcast at longform.org see you next week
01:16:33before we get going a little bit more about Skagen they make great watches and jewelry inspired by the people known as the happiest people on Earth the Danish they've got minimalist design that reflects the less-is-more lifestyle that makes the story so intriguing I've been walking out of the sky and watch I've been getting compliments if you'd like to get those kind of compliments and perhaps even get this kind of compliments for a smartwatch which is very hard to go to skagen.com and you get a special discount on your first purchase when you sign up for the email list again that's Skagen. Com

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