Full Transcript for Getting Old

psych word will just 31 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:15.159 be I think that's balls, but let's not discuss it, or just just 32 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:19.960 the word balls, and then we can just move on. Anyway, So 33 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:24.319 my week's been okay, Um, i've I had. I guess the highlight 34 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:36.240 was going to lunch at a Saint James's club with my oldest friend because being 35 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:42.000 a menu, yeah, sure, be a member of one club during August, 36 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.199 you have this kind of reciprocal right to visit other clubs when your club 37 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.919 is closed. I'm sure you're familiar with it. And so it was an 38 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:55.240 opportunity to go and visit another club and take Sewan to lunch there, and 39 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.960 they quickly identified as as what they called reciprocals, which I don't think is 40 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:05.879 a particularly elevated status in the kind of Saint James's Gentlemen's Club hierarchy, but 41 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:12.479 they were actually I did. I took another guest to another club last August, 42 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.719 August twenty twenty two, and the reception I got in that club was 43 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:20.599 much snottier than the reception we got in the club we went to last week, 44 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:23.840 which was actually fine. You're not mentioning the names of the clubs. 45 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:25.360 Is that because you're scared, because well, I think it's taboo. I 46 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:28.800 think it's taboo. I think that's in for a dig. I think I 47 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:38.319 could risk my members losing my membership. We're talking white the reform. I 48 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:40.560 mean, they're all up their own, but the one I really hate, 49 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:44.639 the one I really hated, the Carton Club. The Carton Club is just 50 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:46.479 the worst. Although they're all pretty ghastly, I mean not, I'm not 51 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:49.520 a member of any of them. I don't know why anyone would be. 52 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.039 Um. Yeah, I've been to the Garret's awful as well. Yeah, 53 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:57.680 I got blackpool by the Garret. I can tell that story. I am 54 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.759 my uncle who was remember I think no, I think he I think he 55 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:03.680 wasn't a remember of the Garret, but but arranged for my name to be 56 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:09.479 put down. UM, so in due course I stood a chance of being 57 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.960 elected. Um, and I was blackballed where my name did come up. 58 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.040 And the reason I was blackballed is because I'd given a bad review to the 59 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:24.800 food or mentioned the food in passing in when I was a restaurant credit for 60 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:28.160 the evening standard. And because the head of the catering committee was also on 61 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:32.519 the membership committee. Um, I was blackballed. Um. And otherwise I 62 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:40.079 might very well be a member of the garret. Um with that stupid tie, 63 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:45.920 ye famous garret tie. Yeah, yeah, I'm not. I'm not 64 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:50.759 again, UM like you or I quite like them, um, but I 65 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:58.480 mean that it's it's it's the real advantage of being a member of one of 66 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.560 these clubs is that good wine is about a third of the price that it 67 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:05.480 would be in a normal restaurant. So the food isn't subsidized, but the 68 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:10.519 wine is. It's a kind of I suppose typical in many ways of the 69 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.759 kind of idiosyncracies of the British upper class. They don't really care what they 70 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:17.759 eat, but they do care what they drink. Yes, so Sean, 71 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:24.199 I'm Sean did one of my favorite ever podcasts with me years ago when he 72 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:29.319 talked about what it was like being captured by the Taliban is. I'm sure 73 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.319 you and you and he get on very well, but I was just wondering 74 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:36.319 is he ideologically team Tobes? I mean, does he still is he a 75 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:44.399 normal like you or is he a bit more conspiracy minded. He's probably a 76 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.319 bit more conspiracy minded than me, but I wouldn't go as far us to 77 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:53.800 say he's Team James. He's just come back from the dom Bass, where 78 00:05:53.800 --> 00:06:00.040 he's been embedded with the Russian Army. I think he's the only West and 79 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:05.680 journalist, at least the only journalist who isn't kind of a creature of the 80 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:13.800 Russian regime, who's been embedded with the Russian army during the Ukrainian War, 81 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:16.480 and he's made it. I'm not sure that Eva kay bartnett Is is a 82 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:21.079 is a creature of the Russian of who who's name, Well, she isn't. 83 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:25.560 She's another very brave reporter that I can think of that has been been 84 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:30.399 embedded with the I think she's been embedded with the with the Russians in the 85 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.560 dom Bass. But anyway, san Sean, So how long did he spend 86 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:35.800 them He's been there for the best part of a year, I think, 87 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:43.040 right, And I think he's he's got some great footage and he was actually 88 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.800 shot at obviously several times um and has some great stories and he's in the 89 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:53.120 process of editing editing the documentary at the moment. Well, so you've been, 90

00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.560 you've been, as we know, of the Daily Skeptic. You and 91 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:04.600 your colleague Ian Rons have been in pushing this really strong Zelensky staff, taking 92 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:10.759 a really strong pro Zlensky line, fiercely anti anti Russian in a way that 93 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:14.360 sort of belies the name skeptic, because I mean it's basically the narrative that 94 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.120 we're getting in all the newspapers that the Ukraine Ukraine goode and blue and yellow 95 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:24.879 flag good. But did Sean tell you anything that kind of caused you to 96 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:32.000 reconsider your gung ho let's send our kids to die for Zelensky stuff. I'll 97 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:34.800 just say the word balls there, James and leave it at that. He 98 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:41.800 did. He did say some counter narrative things. So I mean, I 99 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:48.560 think probably the main takeaway, which I guess is likely to antagonize the pro 100 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:55.519 Ukrainian side in this conflict and the supporters of Ukraine, is that the vast 101 00:07:55.560 --> 00:08:05.040 majority of the Russian conscripts he met were enthusiastic Russian patriots, that they hadn't 102 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:09.720 been press ganged, or at least that they weren't the kind of you know, 103 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:18.120 low morale um rabble that wanted, you know, nothing less than to 104 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:24.399 be there that they are sometimes portrayed as being in the Western media. Um, 105 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:26.360 So that that was I guess that was quite eye opening if you are 106 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.720 if you if if you've been sort of lapping up that particular story. But 107 00:08:31.799 --> 00:08:35.519 it may be that you know, he couldn't entirely trust the people he was 108 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.480 talking to and embedded with a meeting because to a certain extent that may have 109 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:43.200 been controlled by the Russian authorities. So perhaps some of that, some of 110 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.759 that interview footage will be discounted by people who are pro Ukrainian. I don't 111 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.279 know, but I think it's I think I don't think he's I think it's 112 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.320 it's um. It's a sort of fairly even handed, um, sort of 113 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.480 fly on the walls sort of approach. I don't think he I don't think 114 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:01.799 he's deliberately trying to kind of engage with kind of the broader debate and kind 115 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.440 of a firm one side and rebut the other. But it sounds like a 116 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:13.720 fairly a fairly kind of nuanced kind of portrait of what it's like to be 117 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:18.879 a Russian conscript. But so how I mean, I'm very interested that that 118 00:09:18.919 -->

00:09:24.480 Sean went with the Russians, I mean, all the other kind of war 119 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.600 war correspondent, you know, kind of I want to see the elephant stuff. 120 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.120 They're all going out with it with it with the Ukrainians, aren't they. 121 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:35.039 So it was quite an interesting decision of I mean, a very interesting 122 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.240 decision of Sean's to go with the Russians. How how did it come about? 123 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.879 Well, I think it was because he realized that if he could get 124 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:50.399 embedded with Russian troops, he'd be one of the perhaps not the only, 125 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:58.320 but one of the very few Western journalists who could claim who who would be 126 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:03.440 able to make a documentary, who would have a documentary which which told the 127 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:07.639 story from that point of view rather than the point of view being that all 128 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.480 the other stories have been told from. So I think it was just kind 129 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.639 of to give himself a unique selling point to enable him to produce having a 130 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.759 bit more interesting and which would stand out certainly unique selling point in the western 131 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:24.120 Western media which has been just uniformly anti anti Russian. And what did he 132 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:30.080 not viotchsafe any views on how the war's going or the Western equipment that we're 133 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:35.120 all sending out of our expense without. Yeah, he thought that, I 134 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:41.480 mean, he he he doesn't. He doesn't buy into the idea that morale 135 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:48.759 amongst the Russian forces is incredibly low and that they cannot hold out for much 136 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.639 longer. His his, his, his sort of his assessment is that morale 137 00:10:52.840 --> 00:11:00.720 is actually well, not nearly as bad as it's being portrayed. Doubts because 138 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:07.639 even though conditions are pretty poor, they're much more stoical, and they're used 139 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:13.120 to, you know, operating living in quite bleak, deprived circumstances, and 140 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:18.279 so to kind of undermine the morale of a typical Russian conscript is going to 141 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.519 take a lot more than undermining the morale of you know, a British soldier 142 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.840 in a similar circumstances, because the alternative for them isn't a life of kind 143 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:33.080 of comfort, it's a life of pretty desolate privation as well. And he 144 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:35.639 thinks that they're pretty well dug in, that they're they're they're well thoughtified, 145 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:41.519 et cetera, and he doesn't see a quick resolution to the

conflict. Right, 146 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:48.639 that seems quite a quite and oddly um ah, well, it sounds 147 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:54.159 like you were sounding then like a kind of a Japanese senior officer reporting on 148 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.879 the progress of the Japanese army in in sort of in early early nineteen forty, 149 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.919 right. I mean, so that's the best he could say, that 150 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:11.360 that of the Russians, that their morale is not as low as is as 151 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:13.000 as as has been claimed in the West. That was his take. That 152 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.799 was all he'd say. He wouldn't say that the most performed but on some 153 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.919 fronts, or or that the Western military equipment being sent out there is being 154 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:24.159 trashed by Russian UAVs and stuff, or or that it's always the time. 155 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.120 It was just basically, the best the Russians can hope for is their morale 156 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.879 isn't as bad as we in the West have been encouraged. Well, I'm 157 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:37.080 I'm giving you I'm not I'm not telling you everything he told me because no, 158 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.120 clearly not confidential, and he wants to say money when the documentary is 159 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.200 broadcast, doesn't want to give it all the way beforehand, and he's got 160 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.440 quite a few scoops, I think. So I think that's that's more or 161 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:50.080 less all I can share with you. I was sensing, I was I 162 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:52.159 was sensing that. Okay, well, um, while we're while we're still 163 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.639 in in in sort of friend, tell me about your wen, James. 164 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:01.759 Well, it was my birthday, so so thank you. I spent my 165 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:05.000 time sort of begrudging the fact that it was my birthday, as one does 166 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:11.600 when one reaches a certain age. And I had a nice carrot cake made 167 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.840 for me by my daughter, which I wanted to eat more, but obviously 168 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.480 it can completely bugg us up your your keto. Um, you know, 169 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:22.480 sugar is a no no and if you haven't been eating sugar for a while, 170 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.360 you notice it because it's a poison. But it's a lovely cake anyway, 171 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:33.360 And I went for a walk and um and I had I had a 172 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.840 spicy margarita in the evening and that was my birthday. We're going to go 173 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.559 to a place in the in the in the Cotswolds called Something and Something, 174 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.320 um, some biju eatery, but apparently it's quite hard to get the table, 175 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.039 so we didn't go in the end, which seated me fine. So 176 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:52.320 that was my That was my birthday. Can I ask how old you were? 177 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.720 Or is that something that you don't Yeah, no, no, I'm 178 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:01.320 I'm fifty eight. M I have to be told before before my birthday how 179 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.399 old I am, because I know, I mean genuinely, one kind of 180 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.360 stops counting. I could do the maths obviously when I was born in nineteen 181 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:13.799 sixty five, but I don't like doing the maths. Right. Yeah, 182 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.759 well I'm I'm I'm in a worse predicament than you. I think when you're 183 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.600 fifty eight you can still you still sort of think of yourself as being in 184 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.639 your sort of mid fifties, or you can persuade yourself that you know, 185 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:31.639 sixty is still some way off, whereas for me, sixty is two months 186 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:37.039 off. So I'm, I'm sort of I've I've been trying to, you 187 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:43.039 know, process that and adjust to it. And it's odd you feel like 188 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.480 you ought to be kind of behaving more like someone in their sixties. As 189 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:52.919 the kind of big six zero approaches, you feel like you need to adjust 190 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.440 your behavior and become a bit more sedentary and maybe take more naps. You 191 00:14:56.440 --> 00:15:00.600 feel like, I mean, I don't really feel like I need to do 192 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:05.320 any of those things, you know, but but psychologically you kind of the 193 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.960 prospect of being sixty takes a toll and you sort of it makes you feel 194 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.919 older, even if you don't feel older, if you see what I mean. 195 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:20.840 So, I don't really feel like any diminishment of energy or ambition or 196 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.919 kind of animal spirits still got lots of you know, can still work hard 197 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:31.519 and fill every unforgiving minute and the rest of it. But nevertheless, it 198 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.519 feels like, you know, I'm I'm, I can see the runway ahead 199 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:41.639 of me. You know, and and the plane is now that the undercarriage 200 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:46.360 is down, and I'm coming into land, and it's all I've landed, 201 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.679 and then the plane will kind of apply the breaks and then eventually it'll stop. 202 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.720 It feels like, you know, I'm in the I'm in the final 203 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.480 strait now in the home strait, which is quite depressing. Well, when 204 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.480 I was I suppose this must have been in my earlier fifties when I was 205 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:08.480 banned by my family from from hunting

because of my accidents, and they all 206 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:15.759 ganged up on me. I got this very stern letter from this woman called 207 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:22.320 cath Kathleen Peyton, who was wrote some children's books and that in the sixties 208 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.519 called Flambards about horses and hunting and things came Peyton there were a TV series 209 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.519 as well, and she wrote me a letter saying, I think it's very 210 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:36.799 bad that you should give up hunting. You're still young enough. And she 211 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.679 she was writing, she was about ninety three or four when she wrote this 212 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:45.159 letter, Zilla, I think you should do what you enjoy and stop worrying 213 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.519 about things like age or whether or you know whether it's going to hurt you 214 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.679 or not. And I thought that was that was actually very good advice. 215 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.320 I think I think that one should do what one loves as long as it 216 00:16:56.360 --> 00:17:00.440 doesn't harm members of your loved ones whatever. I think. I think it's 217 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.920 a it's a jolly good thing. And I think I think one shouldn't One 218 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:08.920 shouldn't fixate on age because of course, I mean, like you know that 219 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:15.279 you can meet people who are the same age as you who look really way 220 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:21.400 way older because they their bodies are the bodies of a seventeen seventy or so 221 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.119 people. Their ages of number, they're right, yeah, yeah, I 222 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.440 mean what one one one coping mechanism, which we'll both be familiar with, 223 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:37.440 is people sort of exaggerating, you know, their age and infirmity as they 224 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.200 get older, um, in a sort of self deprecating way. I always 225 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:45.599 thought that was the kind of impetus behind the Oldie magazine. I think Richard 226 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.599 Ingram's started it when he was still in his fifties, and the idea was 227 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:56.759 he was kind of embracing old age to kind of advertise to the world he 228 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.880 wasn't in any way scared of it. He was embarrassed about getting older. 229 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:07.119 So that that is the one's natural impulse is to kind of play it down, 230 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.640 not talk about the fact that one is, you know, getting older. 231 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.319 Not tell people what birthday it is that you've just had or you're about 232 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.799 to celebrate. People are generally kind of embarrassed and feel that if they let 233 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.519 the world know how old they are, then the world will start treating them 234 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.440 differently. They might get less work, people might start urging them to retire, 235 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.400 They'll be taken less seriously, They'll become more invisible. So the natural 236 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:37.640 impulse is to kind of disguise the fact that you're getting older and do everything 237 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.400 you can to kind of create the illusion that you're a younger person than you 238 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.319 really are, particularly women. So the the obvious reaction, if you're a 239 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:52.519 kind of contrary, quite self confident person is to do the opposite. And 240 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.559 I think that's what Ingrams and Code did when they set up the Older. 241 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.359 But I'm not sure I'm bold enough or self confident enough to kind of wholeheartedly 242 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.359 do the opposite and kind of embrace becoming sixty and write a column about it 243 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.440 and go on the airwaves to talk about it. Um, you know, 244 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:15.599 I haven't yet got past that kind of feeling that it's going to diminish my 245 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:19.160 diminish me somehow in other people's eyes if they discover just how old I am. 246 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.039 Yeah, but there'd be awful sort of labeling yourself in that way. 247 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:30.240 I'm the jaunty sixty something communists. That's my spadiality writing pieces about how I'm 248 00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.960 sixty and I don't care. It's like, it's like it's like being one 249 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.039 of those cancer columnists. I mean, it's not something you want to you 250 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:41.279 want to end up doing. You just want to be be, you don't. 251 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:47.119 Yeah, yeah, I agree. But yeah, one benefit, James, 252 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:53.599 is that I'll get a bus pass and rail pass um and I think 253 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:56.839 in the rail parts, I think, you know, if you travel around 254 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.480 the country on the train to as I do being a keen follower of Queen's 255 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.400 Park Rangers, I think it can actually save me quite a lot of money. 256 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.839 But when the trains aren't on strike, you mean, when when the 257 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:08.680 trains are actually working. Yeah, on the subject of which, James, 258 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:12.319 Yeah, the most depressing aspect of my weekend is that I went and saw 259 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:22.039 QPR's opening game of the season against Watford at Vicarage Road the Watford Stadium and 260 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:29.319 QPR were beaten four nil and all four goals were scored first No, and 261 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:34.079 all four goal goals were scored in the first half, which was really humiliating. 262 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:37.599 So you think

it's sat there in the second half just being bored, 263 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:41.240 you know, just just just hoping against hope as the minutes ticked by that 264 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:45.279 something might happen and it was just lost, lost, or that they wouldn't 265 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:48.960 score again. On the upside, James, I couldn't get tickets because I 266 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.920 wasn't quick enough off the bat off the bat, couldn't get tickets for the 267 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.799 away end where all the QPR fans were. So I was a friend of 268 00:20:56.839 --> 00:21:02.359 mine who is a Watford season to get holder, gave me his season ticket 269 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:04.000 and a couple of other guest tickets, so I was able to take my 270 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:10.559 kids. But we were all sitting in the Watford end, so had QPR 271 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.119 scored, it might have been difficult not to celebrate, at which point we 272 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:19.160 would have been immediately identifiable as QPR supporters surrounded by hardcore Watford supporters. So 273 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:23.359 perhaps it was just as well that you don't wear scars or any any telltale 274 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.839 signs. Now you don't work, No, you don't, if you're if 275 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:29.759 you're sitting in if you're sitting with the home fans, I don't away game. 276 00:21:29.880 --> 00:21:32.920 No you don't wear your colors? No, yeah I can, I 277 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:37.400 can see that. Do you think we should do our advert? Yeah? 278 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.640 Why don't we? I think? I think a good old Express VPN who 279 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:47.160 we love many times. Our culture corner picks may not be available in our 280 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:52.240 listeners area unless, of course, you have Express VPN. Watching Netflix without 281 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.039 using Express VPN is like paying for a gym membership but only being able to 282 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:03.599 use the treadmill. They have almost a hundred different server locations, so you 283 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:07.519 can gain access to thousands of new shows. This works with many streaming services 284 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:14.519 to BBC, iPlayer, YouTube and more. Why choose Express VPN over other 285 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:19.440 VPNs? Blazing filet speeds, stream and HD with zero buffering, compatible with 286 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:23.400 all your devices, phones, laptops, media consoles, smart TVs and more, 287 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:29.400 encrypts your data. Express VPN has the added benefit of encrypting your data 288 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:34.559 so you can browse the web securely. So be smart. Stop paying full 289 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:38.599 price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. 290 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:45.759 Get your money's worth at Express vpn dot com, Slash London. Don't forget 291 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:52.519 to use our link at Express vpn dot com slash London to get an extra 292 00:22:52.640 --> 00:23:00.119 three months of Express Vpn free. Now Now, Toby, I want to 293 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:08.920 take you to task. I thought that last week's episode was about the Nadia 294 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:15.000 of London callings, and I spent my whole time on the back foot being 295 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:22.359 asked, not just probing questions, but I felt that that the questions that 296 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:29.200 ill behooved you. You the claim at the beginning that you're my very good 297 00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:32.079 friend, Toby Young, and I was wondering what the hell was going on. 298 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:37.400 You seem to approach that show in a kind of really a spirit where 299 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:42.400 you would determine to run down James. And by the way, I didn't 300 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.640 mind, I don't mind at all when you questioned me on the details of 301 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.799 my conspiracy of thees. I'm quite comfortable with that. But I thought it 302 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:55.519 was really, really weird the bit where you you'd obviously put a lot of 303 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:00.079 thought into this and prepared it. You you adore ly. I mean, 304 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.720 it was almost as though you were playing with yourself under the table as you 305 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:08.960 recited it. You quoted this speech by a very nasty piece of work called 306 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:17.319 Yuval Harreri and the speech that you quoted was him saying that inter alia, 307 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:22.920 that conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories were anti Semitic and start. It was clear 308 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:30.559 that he was trying to get conspiracy theorists silenced. And you couldn't see anything 309 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:33.160 wrong with this. You couldn't see anything that was questionable about Yuval Hariri. 310 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:40.599 And you've furthermore, I mean, had you been a kind of standard, 311 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.799 a sort of leftist rabble rouser who believed in terms like racist and anti anti 312 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:51.880 semit anti Semitic and stuff, I could understand it. But here was you, 313 00:24:52.160 --> 00:25:00.720 president of the Free Speech Union, gloating over a speech and repeating uncritically, 314 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.160 and you didn't you you thought he was a perfectly good egg, and 315 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:06.079 you weren't allowed to have conspiracy. There is about the World Economic Forum, 316 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:11.440 which you thought was a perfectly decent, reputable organization. You were gloatingly quoting 317 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.240 this speech, and apparently it seemed very much to me like you were taking 318 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:22.240 this bastard side. And I really was

puzzled by that because of your role 319 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:27.440 as head of the Free Speech Union, I wondering whether you could explain why 320 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:33.200 you launched into this attack and be why you can't see problems with somebody trying 321 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:38.160 to close down free speech on the basis that I don't know there are these 322 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:44.680 things called conspiracy theories and that they are somehow wrong. Well, first of 323 00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.359 all, I think you've misremembered the conversation a little bit, James. When 324 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.839 you asked me whether I was a fan of Uval, I said no, 325 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:57.359 And I certainly don't agree with his position, which is that conspiracy theorists should 326 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:00.720 be banned from the Internet, and I think I made that very clear. 327 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:08.720 I thought that I wanted to hear your response to his kind of blanket dismissal 328 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:17.039 of conspiracy theorists and his claim that at the root of a lot of conspiracy 329 00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:22.079 theories was an idea that cropped up a lot in anti Semitic conspiracy theories, 330 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.920 like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and so forth. I wanted to 331 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.319 hear your response to that. But I wasn't. I wasn't endorsing his analysis, 332 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:40.000 and I certainly I certainly wasn't endorsing his proposal to suppress conspiracy theories. 333 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:42.240 I don't think that's a good idea and never have done. But you know, 334 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:47.359 you may have interpreted it as an attack, but I think that's I 335 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.039 don't think that's that. That isn't how it was meant. And I hadn't 336 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:53.480 put a great deal of thought into it. I just did see that passage 337 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:57.160 that he quotation from him when he was on the Lex Friedman Show, and 338 00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:02.039 just thought i'd put it to you, because you know, it's it's a 339 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:07.759 common criticism made of conspiracy theorists, and I wanted to know what your response 340 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:10.079 was. It wasn't it was. I don't think it was. It wasn't 341 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:15.359 because I endorsed every jot and tittle of his particular. You should surely you 342 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.400 shouldn't have been endorsing any of it at all, not even the jot and 343 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:19.680 tittle as opposed to not every jot and tittle. I mean, well, 344 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:25.519 I thought what he said was just extraordinarily out of order. It was just 345 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:29.079 sort of smearing well, I thought his, I thought his. I thought 346 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.720 his point that, Um. One of the things which made conspiracy theories attractive 347 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.519 is that they kind of simplify the world and come up with a kind of 348 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:44.519 unified theory which enables them to explain everything, including the weather. Seemingly. 349 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:47.960 That's an argument. That's that was that's that's a smear, not an argument 350 00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:49.960 too. Well, that's just just saying I thought I can't be bothered to 351 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.880 understand conspiracy there, so I'm just going to chuck out this random thought on 352 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:59.920 them. Oh yeah, right, They're just for people who can't can't deal 353 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:04.160 with the point he made, which is that the world is much more complicated 354 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:11.559 than that and doesn't lend itself to such simple reductive analysis. I mean that 355 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.039 that's something I agree with and a point I've often made to you. One 356 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:15.960 of the reasons, you know, I think for the most part it's happenstance, 357 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:21.079 luck, cock up, et cetera, rather than some kind of organized, 358 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:25.799 malevolent conspiracy. Um. So I thought I thought that aspect of his 359 00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:33.720 analysis had some you know, um application that rang true with me. But 360 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:37.599 no, I think that I think that he went too far when he, 361 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:44.960 you know, he compares he compares all conspiracy theorists to anti Semites. But 362 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:51.920 I guess sometimes when you have talked about the cabal and you and you, 363 00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:56.880 and when you bring up George Soros and sometimes the Rothschilds and talk about you 364 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:03.119 know, various sinister international organizations, it does sort of rhyme with. It's 365 00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:08.759 not explicitly anti semitic, but it does rhyme with a lot of antic rhymes. 366 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.720 I wanted to hear your response to that. So when so, so, 367 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.640 let me just get to get this right. Job. So, um, 368 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:22.519 when there's a there's a murder, say and and that a man is 369 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:26.680 found with a knife in his back, it's murder. But if it's committed 370 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:33.559 by somebody subsequently emerges that they're Jewish, that that should be factored into the 371 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.720 investigation because what they deserve special status or that they should be beyond criticism. 372 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:41.440 I don't see what you're saying. I mean, surely, surely that the 373 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.799 Jewishness or otherwise if any of the people involved in the conspiracy is irrelevant. 374 00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:49.440 I mean, if somebody, if somebody does something

wrong, whether they are 375 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:53.920 Jewish or not Jewish, it really doesn't matter. The fact shouldn't be used 376 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:57.440 as a way of letting them off the hook. But James using a phrase 377 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.680 like rhymes with seems to be a very weasily get out. It seems to 378 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.519 be like sort of guilt by association. You know, I'm not going to 379 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:07.640 accuse you of being being wrong and sort of some one of those nasty people 380 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:11.119 who hates Jews. But at the same time you sort of kinder are you're 381 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.839 having it both ways, aren't you? Take I think you're pretending to a 382 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:23.200 naivety if you don't see that there is a link between many of the conspiracy 383 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.359 theories that you expound. I mean, you often talk about a cabal of 384 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:33.079 rich and powerful people yes run the world and have been running the world for 385 00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:38.680 millennia, and are isn't it likely that some of those people will be It 386 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.920 often sounds as though you're talking about the Jews, isn't isn't it like that 387 00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:45.640 some of the rich people in the world will be Jewish? And does that 388 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:51.599 Does that mean that any theory involving rich people should be discounted because some of 389 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:56.319 those people might be Jewish? And therefore somebody like Toby defending free speech will 390 00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.599 say, well, I believe in free speech, but not when it rhymes 391 00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.480 with anti semitism. But it just seems to be a very slippery argument to 392 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.319 me, where do you get this anti free speech dimension. I'm not saying 393 00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:11.640 you should be banned from anywhere. It's funny you should be asking me where 394 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:18.400 do you get this anti free speech dimension. The nature of free speech in 395 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.880 my book is that free speech should be the ability to say what you like. 396 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:29.319 We've already established in previous conversations about things like, you know, pedophiles 397 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:33.519 and so on, that that you believe that free speech is something that should 398 00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:37.880 be be okay up to a point, but beyond that point it should not 399 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.599 be allowed. It's your position seeds to be free speech so long as the 400 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.839 regulatory authorities allow it under their current terms, which I don't think that. 401 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:51.000 I think I've articulate in my position before, which is that I think that 402 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:56.359 all speech should be permitted unless it's

likely to lead to imminent violence. Yeah, 403 00:31:56.519 --> 00:31:59.839 imminent. Oh, I think that that new word imminent has been inserted. 404 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.839 I think that's always been my standard. That's always been the test. 405 00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:06.680 It's the same test that's applied by the Well I'd love to know what this 406 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:08.480 what this imminent? What say imminent? Do you mean? I mean what 407 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:13.119 in the next hour after the person said it, or the next week or 408 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.799 what? Where did this word the imminent come from? I think imminent? 409 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:22.559 Well, it's it was the standard I think introduced in what Brandenburg versus the 410 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:30.319 State of Ohio, which was a Supreme Court case in which the distribution of 411 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:39.279 seditious political leaflets was ultimately considered allowable by the Supreme Court, as I recall, 412 00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:44.599 because it wasn't likely to lead to imminent insurrection, by which I think 413 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:49.880 they meant, you know, within days of the literature being distributed. I 414 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.559 mean the problem with not introducing the imminent caveat is that you can you can 415 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:58.359 then say, well, anything could potentially lead to violence, you know, 416 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.200 if it's interpreted in the wrong way in due course, if you have a 417 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.839 completely open ended, no fixed timeline. So you have to kind of be 418 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.880 a bit more specific than that, otherwise it becomes a meaningless, meaningless test. 419 00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:14.000 And while are on the subject, what do you understand by anti semitism? 420 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.160 Do you think it's a specific term or do you think it's so broadbrush 421 00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:21.400 is to be meaningless or is it somewhere in between? What are what are 422 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.279 the limits of anti semitism? Because I mean, if you look into the 423 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.319 history of the word, you know the history of the word, you knew 424 00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:30.759 where it came from. No, you might research that, but tell me, 425 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:35.359 tell me what you think anti semitism means? And so what would constitute 426 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.799 anti Semitism, and what wouldn't what would be an unfair use of it? 427 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:45.640 Well, I suppose I think of anti Semitism as being hatred of the Jews 428 00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:58.359 and often irrational blaming the world's problems on the Jews, imagining that they are 429 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:04.359 somehow responsible for your own problems, the lack of your own success and your 430 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:09.760 identity group's success, as well as responsible for many of the troubles in the 431 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:17.760 world, conflicts wars. So would criticism of Israel be anti Semitic? I 432 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:22.519 think it. I think it's um. I don't think that any criticism of 433 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:27.119 Israel is anti Semitic. No, it can be. You can be a 434 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:31.840 philo Semite and still you know, dislike Israel's some of the policies of the 435 00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:39.320 Israeli government. I think being anti Zionist can bleed into anti Semitism, but 436 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:43.119 goes lead into That's a bit it's a bit like like kind of right. 437 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.760 I think as a vendor diagram in which how how would you how would you 438 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.599 anti zionists overlap? How would you see much? How would you say that 439 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.480 all anti Zionists are anti Semitic? How do you distinguish between anti Zionism and 440 00:34:53.000 --> 00:35:00.199 legitimate criticism of Israel. No, No, between legitimate criticism of is An 441 00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:04.440 anti Semitism. No, you said anti Zionism. I mean, I think, 442 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:07.679 but you misunderstood them. I said, I didn't think all anti Zionism 443 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:12.960 was anti Semitism, but I thought that that that there isn't Sometimes anti Zionists 444 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.679 are anti Semitic. But how would you How would you decide this? I 445 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.119 mean, I mean, isn't it Isn't it easy just to say, Look, 446 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:22.159 people can say what they like and that's the deal. And because after 447 00:35:22.199 --> 00:35:28.320 all that, the hardest free speech to defend is the free speech that most 448 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.199 needs defending, because otherwise you enter a world where where we get well, 449 00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:36.599 like for instance, James, I think, but I wouldn't. Yeah, 450 00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:45.000 I don't think I would necessarily want to suppress prosecute people who are anti Semitic. 451 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:50.559 I mean, for instance, I think Holocaust denial, um I mean, 452 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:53.199 I think it obviously, I think it's it's it's bollocks. But I 453 00:35:53.239 --> 00:36:00.360 think the best way to um rebut it is to allow Holocaust and i as 454 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:04.360 to set out their stool in the public square and then confront them with all 455 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.519 the evidence that the Holocaust actually happened and that they're talking rubbish. I don't 456 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:17.280 think suppressing um Holocaust denialism is the way to snuff it out. And I 457 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.320 think that applies to many conspiracy theories and some some forms of anti Semitism. 458 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:24.320 I think if people are, you know, I think I'd even go as 459 00:36:24.360 -->

00:36:31.519 far as the ACLU and defend um, you know, American Nazis marching through 460 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:36.639 Jewish areas. I think where I draw the line, I suppose is when 461 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:43.599 people are actively encouraging other people to attack Jews, then that that would be 462 00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:49.000 that that that that that that that meets the test of speech, which is, 463 00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.159 you know, going to lead to imminent violence or likely to lead to 464 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:58.159 dominant Okay, So going back to the conspiracy theory that you're saying the rhymes 465 00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:02.079 of anti Semitism, where in the those conspiracy theories anywhere do you hear people 466 00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:07.920 being urged to attack Jews? So right when I'm not and I'm not saying 467 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:09.119 you should be banned from saying them, James, And I'm not saying it 468 00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:14.360 meets the standard in Brandenburger high which means it's it isn't, it doesn't doesn't. 469 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:19.840 Why so why even you keep you keep hearing this as an argument to 470 00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.440 you know what, why would you even bring up Why would you even in 471 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:28.360 that case, given that you you don't accept the Semitism as a legit legitimate 472 00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:34.639 criticism of any form of or any meaningful criticism of conspiracy theories, Why did 473 00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:37.079 you bring it up? Why did you think it was so important to mention 474 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:42.559 it? Because I think it's told me that your Jewish think. I think 475 00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.880 I think it is a legitimate criticism and something you should be much more concerned 476 00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:51.519 about than you. But but I think it's across my body clear to be 477 00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:53.880 clear, to be clear, because somehow this hasn't sunk in yet, you 478 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:58.039 know, I keep repeating it. I don't think it's a reason you shouldn't 479 00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.760 be able to set out those conspiracies theories in the public square. I don't 480 00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:06.239 think it's a reason even for demonetizing your podcast. I mean, I think 481 00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:09.639 you should be able to express those conspiracy theories, but I think you should 482 00:38:09.639 --> 00:38:13.920 also have to confront criticisms of them, one of which is they can sound 483 00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.840 a bit. That's big of you to be given that you are, you 484 00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:22.960 are the leading representative of the leading free speech organization in the country. So 485 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:28.639 I'm I'm glad to have your permission to engage in go on engaging in these 486 00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:31.760 services. Do you think I'm trying to expirac I'm trying to advocate that you 487 00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:37.840 should be bad. I'm not well. I listeners and listeners are are free 488 00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:44.199 to listen to to last week's episode, and they will find you sounding somewhat 489 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:47.599 less measured and thoughtful this week. When I think so, I think, 490 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:55.360 I think you've just your last week when you're you know, you've really been 491 00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:00.559 briefed or something to have it to really stick the knife in today part And 492 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:04.320 I just I was wondering, what the hell is this? This is what 493 00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:07.599 you think, James, isn't it you think I was briefed by someone that 494 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.000 I was. I was prepped by some pretty it was pretty unexpected to me 495 00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:15.000 personally. To No, I didn't think it was clash war. He wouldn't, 496 00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:20.760 he wouldn't. Bother don't really think you sound like you sound a bit 497 00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:24.079 para. I can assure you that no one briefed me. It wasn't good. 498 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:29.480 It wasn't it wasn't. No one put me up to it. Really, 499 00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:32.199 James, do you really not be the voices in your head told you 500 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:37.960 to do it. No, it was just m I saw the comment quoted 501 00:39:37.559 --> 00:39:42.880 and thought, I put that to James conversation. I absolutely love this. 502 00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.559 Well anyway, Meanwhile, maybe you can look into the history of the creation 503 00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:51.159 of the word anti semitism, because because I know that that back in the 504 00:39:51.239 --> 00:39:55.800 day, anyway, you used to be one of those conservative commentators who deplored 505 00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:00.679 the use of islamophobia rightly recognized and that it was just kind of being used 506 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:07.480 as a political weapon to close down legitimate criticism. And I think you'll find 507 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:14.000 that the word anti Semitism was devised in the same way by a similar kind 508 00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:19.679 of activist group. And I think it's very sad to hear somebody who represents 509 00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:22.840 free speech using that word as if it were if it had any any value, 510 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:27.000 which I don't think it does. You might as well just use racist 511 00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.199 or islamophobia or any of those things. Oh well, I think there's one 512 00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:39.599 of the surely one of the key differences between antisemitism and islamophobia is that Islamophobia 513 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:45.039 is clearly a recent coinage, and I think it was coined, as you 514 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:53.800 say, to try and inhibit people from criticizing some of the more extreme aspects 515 00:40:53.920 --> 00:41:01.400 of Islamism, like what whereas anti

Semitism. You know, is has a 516 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:07.079 history dating back more than two thousand years, and not the term partner. 517 00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:12.320 The term was coined far more recently than that. And you should look it 518 00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:15.639 up. You should look it up. I mean, look, one of 519 00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:22.480 the things that that Islamophobes criticize is some of the more extreme passages of the 520 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:28.920 of the Quran and the Hadith. Yeah um, And yet those are branded, 521 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:31.599 you know, just the mere criticism is branded Islamophobia. In the same 522 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:35.360 way. Are you familiar with the Talmud? Have you looked into it at 523 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:40.599 all? Yeah? I know, you know what it is. Have you 524 00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.880 what do you know about? What do you know about the Talmud? Uh? 525 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.840 Well, I know, I know it's um, isn't it um? 526 00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:58.480 There's a history of Jewish scholarship which involves studying the Talmud. And don't they 527 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:04.519 have to recite some aspect of it during the various religious ceremonies and so forth. 528 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.159 Well, there's there's another there's another thing that you might you might want 529 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:10.039 to research, look at look and look into the Talmud. You might be 530 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:13.239 surprised some of the things that are said in there some of the some of 531 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:17.519 the things that you might feel slightly uncomfortable about even defending in the Free Speech 532 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:22.119 Union. You might think that's a bit iffy, that that that is really 533 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:25.800 a bit iffy, And I'm you know, just just it's always worth worth 534 00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:31.960 researching these things so you know what you're talking about. Well, but if 535 00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:37.280 you're claiming, James, that anti Semitism, you know, was was a 536 00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:47.800 word invented to deflect legitimate criticism of Judaism. I mean, what happened given 537 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.239 that you don't know, given you don't know the origins of the term, 538 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:54.960 and you don't know what it was invented to do the term? Well, 539 00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:58.400 I mean, look, look look it up. Look it up. It's 540 00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.880 if you look up the Anti Anti Defamation at Anti Defamation League. Isn't some 541 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:08.000 background reading for you to do it and first lead in eighteen sixty? Okay, 542 00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:14.960 these these these terms are not are not neutral. They're not They're not 543 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:20.800 produced by lovely nice people because they care about about honest debate, are they? 544 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.760 So they're they're kind of dodgy words for people from the Free Speech Union 545 00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:30.639 to be using. I would say, I will venture to suggest, well, 546 00:43:31.239 --> 00:43:37.960 you'll be pleased to hear James that we are about to publish a pamphlet 547 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:45.880 at the Free Speech Union attacking both the definition of anti Semitism that is being 548 00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:52.719 foisted on British universities as well as the All Party Parliamentary Group definition of Islamophobia, 549 00:43:52.840 --> 00:44:00.440 attacking both definitions as illegitimate ways of limiting free speech, part clearly on 550 00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:04.800 kempus. So hopefully you'll be you'll be, you'll be happy to read that. 551 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:08.000 But one more thing you should look into, because I know you should 552 00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:14.440 be on top of these things. Are you aware that the latest anti terror 553 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:23.679 legislation UM now includes or is planning to include conspiracy theories as a as as 554 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:30.639 an indication that of terrorist activity, which which which anti terror legislation? I'll 555 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:36.920 get the I'll get you the documents for next week's episode, but maybe you 556 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.239 can have a look at it, because I think it's it's very, very 557 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:46.159 worrying, Okay, Suella Bravaman. Who I think people who still kind of 558 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:51.519 it's trapped in the normally world paradigm, that there are still some good conservatives 559 00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:57.000 might be shocked to see what lovely Suella Bravaman, Law and Order Bratherman is 560 00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:02.079 endorsing because it's very very dodgy. Right, Okay, well I'd be interested 561 00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:07.840 to hear what you're talking about there. Um. Yeah, anyway, should 562 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:10.199 we should we move on to a culture corner? Yeah? I think we 563 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:17.679 should. I have seen something since we last spoke. I saw, actually 564 00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:23.679 i've seen two things. I saw Guardians of the Galaxy three. Of course 565 00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:27.920 you did, which because it's just come out. I didn't go and see 566 00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:30.760 it at the cinema. It's just come out on Disney Plus, so I 567 00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:34.800 was able to see it for free and thought it was pretty good, actually 568 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.199 much better than two. Yeah, I thought it was better than two. 569 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:43.360 Not as good as one, but better than two, and probably the best 570 00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:49.719 Marvel film since end Game. I thought every Marvel film since Endgame, virtually 571 00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:53.880 every Marvel film since Endgame has been terrible. So the Doctor Strange sequel, 572 00:45:54.320 -->

00:46:00.199 Full Love and Thunder, they've all been really disappointed. And as for the 573 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:05.639 kind of the new the new characters and the Eternals, I mean, just 574 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:12.280 you know, hopeless. But this was actually pretty good and contained some kind 575 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:16.320 of sustained, really well choreographed kind of action set pieces which were a joy 576 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:21.760 to watch. One of which unfolded entirely in slow motion and was almost Peck 577 00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:25.920 and Power esque in its beauty. So yeah, no, I thought it 578 00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:30.280 was pretty good, pretty entertaining. I mean, it's slightly overindulgent at times. 579 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.039 There's a talking dog, for instance, a dog with some kind of 580 00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:37.880 voice box attached which enables it to kind of communicate with its master, and 581 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:42.760 I thought that was a step too far. Could have done without the anthropomorphized 582 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.159 animals, though, I guess that's what Rocket is. But there's a sort 583 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:49.320 of a backstory there, whereas with the dog, he just sort of appeared 584 00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.159 out of nowhere. But yeah, it's a little bit too long, so 585 00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.639 it's like an hour, two hours and forty minutes or something. But on 586 00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:00.480 the whole I thought almost a return to form for the MCU. So that 587 00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:05.760 was a pleasant surprise. Really enjoyed it. Also watched a film called River 588 00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.719 Wild, which the old one, No, not the River Wild. I 589 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.119 thought it was going to be a remake or a rebuilt of I think a 590 00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:15.840 remake you'd call it of the River Wild, but no, it's actually it 591 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:20.880 was sort of similar, you know. It was about a kind of feisty, 592 00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:27.599 indominitable, spirited woman who ends up vanquishing the bad guys on a river, 593 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:32.400 you know, whilst navigating white water. So sort of like Deliverance but 594 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:37.280 with a chick. Basically, yeah, yeah, implausible check yeah yeah yeah 595 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:43.000 kind of yeah, twenty first century version of Deliverance. But it was you 596 00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:44.920 know, it was okay, it was okay. I didn't think it was 597 00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:46.199 as good as the first one. Who was the Who was the woman? 598 00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:51.559 I can't remember, no one I'd ever heard of? Right? Um? 599 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:58.599 And apart from that, I watched the final episode of Hijack. Oh and 600 00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:01.960 with it Ris Elba, tell me, go on, tell me what happens. 601 00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.599 Spoiler. I won't tell you what

happen because it will be it would 602 00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:09.079 be a spoiler for those listeners. Okay, was it? Was it worth 603 00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:13.920 sitting through all those episodes? I think it was delivered? Yeah, I 604 00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:15.960 think it was just about worth it. I'm not going to give it. 605 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:19.800 I'm not going to give it too much praise, but I thought it was 606 00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.320 okay. I thought it was reasonably diverting. I think I'd give it six 607 00:48:23.360 --> 00:48:30.000 and a half out of ten. Right, and did the appen? I 608 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:31.599 can't even ask you that, come I did they all survive? Or did 609 00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:36.239 they I can't tell you. I can't tell too much of a spoiler anyway, 610 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:39.199 um and um. Well, and I also watched episode one of season 611 00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:43.119 two of yellow Stones. I've been meaning to, you know, our friend 612 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:47.000 Mark Miller has been encouraging us to watch yellow Stone for a long time now. 613 00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:51.119 Yes, season two said is the best anything. Season two is the 614 00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:57.880 best. So I finally got around to starting season two. Um so um 615 00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.360 and yeah, it looks pretty good and I think I'll get to the about 616 00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.280 without any difficulty at all. Okay, Well, talking of Mark Miller, 617 00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:09.800 I have had the exclusive preview of his new series, The Chosen One, 618 00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:15.960 which was a comic series he published under the title American Jesus. And it's 619 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:20.800 about well, more or less, it's about the second Coming. It's about 620 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:25.400 this that Jesus is reborn. It's a bit like the anti Omen so instead 621 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:29.599 of having be about the Antichrist, who also I believe appears in this as 622 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:35.960 well at some stage, it's about it's about Jesus coming back and in an 623 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.719 unlikely you know, I mean to a similar situation where he's got a single 624 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:44.480 mum m, well, I suppose that wasn't technically what happened in the Bible 625 00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.599 was that there was Joseph was still around. But but anyway, Jesus, 626 00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:52.719 Jesus is born, and obviously the forces of darkness are out to track him 627 00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:58.440 down and take him out, and so they're always on the run. And 628 00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:02.039 but it's set in it's setting, well, the first few episodes is set 629 00:50:02.039 --> 00:50:10.159 in the Baja California, and um, it's interesting setting, really charmingly acted. 630 00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:16.239 They've got it's got a sort of slight stand by me me or um, 631 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.599 what's the recent one, the Spooky Kids thing on Netflix, you know, 632 00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:23.239 the Stranger Things. It's got a sort of slight stranger Things vibe to 633 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:28.760 it, like likable, likable gang of kids. The kid playing the Jesus 634 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:36.400 character is really good. The Mexican setting is interesting. I think it's gonna 635 00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:40.119 be I think it's gonna be good. It's on Netflix very mid August. 636 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:43.800 I think, right, okay, it's okay, Yeah, but I've got 637 00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:47.400 to watch a few more episodes bef you know, any reviewing it. I 638 00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:51.760 am going to review it. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Well 639 00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:52.719 it's not my shom at the time of year anyway, but but now I 640 00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:57.760 would anyway, I think it's I've been really looking at I think American Jesus 641 00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:01.840 is probably Miller's masterpiece. I don't know why. It just it just goes 642 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:06.039 down all the dealing poor rabbit holes apart from anything else. Okay, okay, 643 00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:10.079 I'll look forward to that. I downloaded the Screwtape Letters audio book. 644 00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:16.559 I thought i'd try and understand this idea of kind of you know, spiritual 645 00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:22.039 warfare between good and evil taking place kind of just beneath the surface of things. 646 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:24.840 So, um, yeah, I'm looking forward to listening to that. 647 00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.599 Well, I've got experience about CS leaders. I think he I think his 648 00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:36.079 Mere Christianity is a fantastic piece of Christian apologetics and a very good, good 649 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:40.960 entry point explaining why the more that are in built moral conscience shows that there 650 00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:45.360 is there is a God, and there is a God and so on. 651 00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:50.440 Um. I thought his essay on the Psalms was really poor. Um. 652 00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:53.239 I think some of his writing is quite weak, but some of his ideas 653 00:51:53.239 --> 00:51:58.360 are good. Um. So so yeah, I've got mixed mixed feelings about 654 00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:00.719 CS. Just tell you what they're just before we go. I finally got 655 00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:07.840 round to finishing Anna Corona and and so there's a there's a bit where spoiler 656 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:13.159 alert, she dies, But there's about fifty more pages after that, and 657 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.519 everyone knows I think pretty much that Anna Corona is about to doom a doom 658 00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:19.880 love affair. And they say to themselves, or I certainly did, Why 659 00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:22.679 would I want to read this book when I know it's going to end end 660 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:24.519 unhappily? And

why should I be put through the mill, put through the 661 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:30.639 ringer, only to have for it all to end end grimly? But what 662 00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:35.639 Tolstory very cleverly does is he has this sort of parallel well is it a 663 00:52:36.039 --> 00:52:42.599 main plot or is possibly a subplot about this character called Yaven and and Telstory 664 00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:49.480 being being a Christian figure, um towards the end the final fifty pages that 665 00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:57.280 their significance really is about Lieven having search for meaning in his life finally gets 666 00:52:57.639 --> 00:53:00.239 God, gets gets the Christian message and under dance that this is what gives 667 00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:06.000 you a meaningful life. And I thought it was brilliant. Imagine if I 668 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:07.960 read it when I was younger, I might have thought, what's all this 669 00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:12.079 crazy Christian stuff doing? You know, in a love story, a doom 670 00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:20.119 love story? But now I think just toll Story really really got it Tolstoy 671 00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:23.159 was was was clearly quite red pilled. There's there's a scene also in the 672 00:53:23.239 --> 00:53:28.440 end of the book where Russia is hot for war. Is somewhere some something 673 00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:34.639 to do with their fellow Slavs being abused and somewhere or other, so they're 674 00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:37.559 all going off to war. And and Lievin is, who is the toll 675 00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:44.440 story character in the book, is is very skeptical about these these popular these 676 00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:47.719 alleged popular moods were whipped up by the media. He thinks it's all it's 677 00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:52.960 all nonsense. He's suspicious of philosophy. I mentioned in an earlier London calling 678 00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:57.960 that he's also suspicious about the very notion of education and providing medical medical care 679 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:00.639 for the for the for the pence, because you believe is that actually they're 680 00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:04.760 they're much better looking after themselves. They did it, white white, white 681 00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:09.119 white, embrace dodge modern medicine anyway. Um, brilliant book, best novel 682 00:54:09.159 --> 00:54:14.920 I've ever read, and highly recommended. Okay, it sounds better than um 683 00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:20.880 Starbuck No Red Bull book, one of the Starbuck Chronicles by Bernard Corner, 684 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:24.559 which a little disappointing so far. Yeah, I'll read that next game. 685 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:29.159 Are you reading it or listening to it. I read it, I read 686 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:34.320 it, wife, Wife listened to audiobook and said the experience was fantastic, 687 00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:37.840 that it's really good at having it. Okay, all right, cool, 688 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:43.960 okay, all ye, James, okay, bye bye. This is London. 689 00:54:44.119 --> 00:55:04.079 Bully Ricochet joined the conversation