Full Transcript for Let's Talk | UCA Podcast #3 with Rosemary Folker & Steve Holloway

thing to do. Shut up and get on with it. Um, and we'll just take the consequences no matter what they were, but we didn't have a clear vision of what we were going to do when we had those first meetings in the Lake district in 1999, we had no clue where it was going. I mean, there was, there was a lot of talk about us joining a British association. who shall remain nameless, but it's the BCA. We were, a lot of us were members of the SCA as associate members and they were massively supported. We just couldn't have done what we did without them. But we realized that if we were going to have a voice, the SCA was not the vehicle to do it. And the only other viable option at that time was BCA, but we had no clue. There was no intention whatsoever of doing this at all. We just didn't know where it was going to go. Speaker 1: That's great, Chris. Again, for the viewers, just for a bit of context, I just want to make the point that Steve's partner, Anne Rankin, is actually a current UCA board member. So we still have those links to the past, which is nice. And Rosemary Neal was the first UCA president as well. How did you feel about working alongside the husband when it first kicked off? Did it all go well, or did you have to keep him in check, or is Neal pretty good? Speaker 3: Look, look, Marc, as they say, behind every great man, right? ⁓ Speaker 2: Can I reverse that behind every great woman? Speaker 3: There is that. I remember my grandfather who actually studied under BJ and when we came up with this idea of Neil becoming a chiropractor, he sat me down and he said, now Rosemary, you do realize, don't you, that you're going to become a chiropractic widow. In other words, you won't really see much of him. And I was like, Speaker 1: another Speaker 3: No, I won't, because I'll be behind him and I'll be putting him with him and helping him. So I definitely won't. So, yeah, it was great. It was great. I was really pleased that he was president. He took it very seriously. And because he was right there at very beginning, we could all talk about which direction we wanted to go. and we were all singing from the same song sheet basically, so it's great. Speaker 2: there is a level of, and we've skipped forward quite a bit really, but there was a level of being a willing victim rather than a willing volunteer. ⁓ Because it was Marc Possels when we met with him who said, look, you need a British chiropractor to be president of this. And there was like a deathly silence in the room. And it was more of case of, I can't remember, it was me that said, you're doing it. ⁓ And then of course we had to apply him with lots of stuff and in the end he bravely volunteered, but you know, it wasn't, it didn't feel like that. mean, you know, we all came up with some stupid ideas, but luckily I've got a wife that kind of anchors me very easily. But yeah, no, it was a good decision I think and the right person definitely. Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, that's wonderful guys. It's

something we've touched on other conversations that we've had. And I think it is something we do try and highlight to those, particularly when we're at conferences or such like, you know, those who are involved in the associations or whether it's within regulation, it's not often not just that person. There's a group behind them, whether it's their practice team, husband, wives, you know, it affects all, doesn't it? It's very easy to see the person on the stage with the microphone, but there's a whole bunch of people that's facilitating that oftentimes as well. And I think it's really important to recognize that. And I think certainly amongst the UCA, you we talk about being the heart home of chiropractic and it's very sort of, know, as a family, as a group, we like that. And to hear your stories and being partners of chiropractors, but really being the driving force that got it off the ground, you know, it's wonderful to hear. Speaker 2: next Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you. Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't, we had the two meetings in the lakes and then we had the meeting at the Midland Hotel where we decided we need to get a bit more serious. And that was January the 23rd, 2000. And we invited Adrian Wemba over from Spain to come and help us to invigilate, if you like. And we still haven't got any kind of clue. We'd all got thoughts, but no one had actually said we need a new association. It wasn't mentioned at all. And I went to Liverpool Airport with Gary Carlos to collect Adrian. And we were in my car belting down the motorway, of course, under the speed limit. And at that point, Adrian said, and we had no clue who was at the Midland Hotel, none at all, because we had no way, we didn't even know if anyone was going to turn up. And in the car, Gary said, well, what are we gonna do? And I think it was Adrian and I looked at each other and we just sort of nodded and said, we're gonna need a new association. And it was really, and when we got back to the hotel, it was incredible the way it's one of those weird things that everybody had kind of just shifted the way they were thinking almost at the same time. But there was still a few dissenters there that were ⁓ very opposed to a new association. mean, Rosemary has mentioned a few of those in the past. But it wasn't easy sailing. Speaker 4: That's something I wanted to ask when there were the negative comments or anyone saying this won't work, you can't do this bad idea got you through and how did you deal with that to get to where we are today? Because Speaker 3: Well, there were more of us that wanted an association. Funnily enough, 25 years have gone past and my memory is a little bit different to Steve's. I would say that we did have an idea that we needed a new association. Certainly, certainly that's what I was rooting for. So Steve says tomato, I say tomato. So, you know, we perhaps have a little bit of difference in our... in our memory. And we also do reconstruct our memories, don't we? So who

knows? But I remember that that was really what we wanted. And that's what we were aiming for. We didn't really worry. was, to my memory, there was only really one dissenting voice and I won't name that person. So that was fairly easy to deal with. It's much better to to form a new association, then try to infiltrate from the inside. That's a much harder job. Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was, was, as Rosemary said, recollections are different. I mean, I was kind of on the fence with it because I wasn't emotionally attached to a new association or whatever. I'm all for the change. But when we were in that room, as Rosemary very rightly said, there was one particular voice, but it was a very loud voice. It was one that he spoke and everyone listened. And in the end, it was just almost a case of sit down, shut up, we're doing it. It was like, and it really was that simple, but the second that decision was made, everything changed, everything changed, you know, and it was lovely to see. It's one of those really weird moments when everything just seems to happen and it's like, do you know what? Yeah, we're doing this. But yeah, I mean, Speaker 3: It was very high forming moment. It's really, I think of one of BJ's quotes about it, it's better to light a candle than curse the darkness. And so that was really where it had to come from. So when we actually decided, I think there was quite a bit of relief, like, ⁓ Speaker 2: End. Speaker 3: We decided that that's it. There's no going back. Speaker 2: I mean, post decision, when we started to put things together, Neil and I were sort of tasked with the job because I was the first secretary, Charlie Sawyer was the first treasurer and Neil, of course, was the first president. So basically all the arrows and the flag was aimed at Neil and I just sort of sat in the background chipping in every now and then. But we decided it would be better to go and introduce ourselves formally to fellow association and also to the GCC. And I think universally, We were asked, why are you doing this? And it's not going to work. There's no need for this. And it was like, Speaker 3: Perhaps they sort as. ⁓ Speaker 4: What was your reply to these comments and questions? Speaker 2: Do want the clean reply or do you want that? No. Well, we just took it. Neil and I were there. Neil is the ultimate diplomat ⁓ and very good. We were close enough that he knew when to squeeze money in time and to shut up without actually telling me to shut up. ⁓ We just basically nodded sagely and just said, we'll see, won't we? ⁓ Margaret Coates, the then registrar was... was very welcoming and said, look, you know, we like him, put and blah, blah, blah, but we still don't know why at this late stage thinking of doing this. And we did actually explain that we felt that certain aspects of chiropractic that we love and cherish were not going to be represented or actually going to actively be closed down. And that was actually said to us in no uncertain terms at the meeting with the other association that certain techniques would not be tolerated under the new chiropractic act. ⁓ But as I say, the general consensus was, well, they're fly by night guys, there's going be no support here, nothing's going to happen. I don't know what Neil told Rosemary, but I don't know whether that's Neil's recollection. So, yeah. Speaker 3: We were given three months, weren't we, a certain individual? Three months, that'll be it, they'll disappear. Speaker 2: Yeah, so, proved you wrong, we? ⁓ Sorry. I am trying my best not to do it. Speaker 1: I know, but the thing is, Steve, I hear because it's still a very passionate conversation, isn't it, between the sort of traditional sort of chiropractic, the principles that the UCA adheres to, and others who would like it to be more of a medicalised adjunct, adjunctive therapy these days. I always, you know, in my position now, I think it's always important to remember where we've come from, where we're going. Two, think you've got to acknowledge both. And I mean, it'd be interesting to hear your viewpoints, both of you actually, on coming from chiropractic families and advocates and backgrounds. How do you find the alignment, if you will, of the universal principles into that more mainstream healthcare arena? Do you feel that they'll never gel? Do you feel there's a happy midpoint? We'd really love to hear your perspectives on that. I know it's a big conversation we could spend. probably half an hour on that. you know, we're great. I'm sure the listeners would love to hear what the members kind of thought when it first started, because it was a big part of the UCA being set up, wasn't it? Was that does everybody have a representative voice? Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: think for me, it's a sort of live and let live. Medicalized or allopathic chiropractors or that with that leaning or they want to go into the NHS, which personally, honestly, I think would be a total disaster. NHS is broken as it is. And I love chiropractic and I want to protect it. It certainly don't want it within the NHS. But I think it's fair to Fair to say, isn't it Steve, that we were happy to do what we were doing, practicing vitalistic chiropractic. But I think the more allopathic ⁓ chiropractors weren't really so happy that we existed. And so really we said, look, if you just want to deal with pain, muscular skeletal, that's fine. Speaker 2: No. Speaker 3: You do you, as the kids say now. But and that that wasn't a phrase then. And that was fine. And we were all happy for them to do that. But they weren't happy for us to do that. So we felt really under threat that that side of chiropractic. And that was where it originated from, from Didi and BJ. We felt that when BJ talked about you have a sacred trust. You need to guard the sacred, you have a sacred trust in your hands, guard it well. That could still send shipper down my spine. ⁓ Speaker 2: The positioning statement that we came up with summed

it up and it was unity through diversity. we recognize, so long as someone recognizes chiropractic and the principles of chiropractic and is prepared to agree to the philosophical constructs that we laid down for the association, many of which we've got today, I don't care. Because quite frankly, I'd rather have somebody in the chiropractic world who treats muscular skeletal pain than not have any chiropractors at all. So there's a place for absolutely every one of us. ⁓ And this infighting is the thing that if anything ultimately will destroy this profession, it will be that. The fact that you put two chiropractors together, they're probably not going to agree on everything, but that's humanity. But to be almost, I won't say violently opposed, but you know. vocally and okay, sometimes violently opposed to someone else having an opinion is just, know, I'm sorry, but I thought we were a democracy. ⁓ But as as you assuage and you assign to our ideals and ideals and ⁓ our philosophical constructs, you can be a member. We're not gonna tell you how to practice. And that was the whole thing. We wanted chiropractors in the UK to be able to practice chiropractic the way they wanted to practice chiropractic. Not have some prescription. how it's gonna happen because that just is absolutely mental. And there are still people today with all due respect who are trying to do this. And the only thing I can say to those people if they are listening, shame on you. I'm quite happy to meet and have a conversation. But at end of the day, just live and let live. And if you're not doing any harm and your focus is doing good, get on with it. You know, it's a place for all of us. mean, you if I break my arm or I'm bleeding, for God's sake, don't take me to my life for an adjustment. I mean, I'm not stupid. And if I'm in pain, give me more than anybody else on the planet. I don't care. But there is a place for all of us. And it's just, I won't say knowing your place, because that's really rude, but knowing how this thing interconnects. And the great thing about science today is we still don't know how we interconnect. And I hope we never do. But yeah, sorry, that was my lecture over with. Speaker 1: Nice, Steve. It's great. Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, I think also, if you want to change chiropractic a lot and medicalize it, that's something that would have DD and BJ spinning in their graves. So if you want to do that, you can, but please don't call it chiropractic. Maybe it's something else. if really it's we have that history. start in 1895, we have that history. So let's not abandon it and change it. if you want to, a certain way, that's fine. Speaker 2: I love the way that everybody says, you know, like subluxation is a philosophical and a historical concept. Well, one of the things that I have to curse Adrian Wenban for was making me read a book by a lady called Anne Rand. Philosophy Who Needs It. And if you're not sure whether you've got a philosophy or not, read that book. I'll pay you to stay asleep while you do it, to stay awake while you do it, because it's a lot of words. But there is a paragraph that says that everybody on the planet has a philosophy. Speaker 3: ⁓ yeah. Speaker 2: And if you say you don't have a philosophy, well guess what? You do. So why are we all scared of philosophy? It's what drives us. It gives voice to politics and to healthcare and to medicine. And more importantly, the one thing that chiropractors do that most professional in the healthcare don't do is they recognize the need, the validity, and basically the usefulness of a philosophy. It guides us and that's really what we're to protect. Speaker 3: Yes, the basis of everything that we do. And as I say, if you want to change it, call it something else. But in my book, it's not chiropractic. Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's great to hear. And I think, you know, that's certainly something that as an association, we worked over the 25 years and especially in recent years in this sort of concept of there's a practitioner and practice style for every patient or a chiropractor with a style for every practice member, however your terminology is for that. And because it is that partnership with the patient. Yes, there's the chiropractic, of course. Not everything, not everybody wants exactly the same, you know, there's, that's where that beautiful diversity comes, comes in. And there is that, you know, the current practice are genuinely trying to help people, you know, it would, it would be a folly to say there isn't the odd person who makes a misstep or, perhaps, you know, could, do a better job, you know, it's, it's born out over the years, know, people are people, right. But the vast 99.999%, you know, they're there to do this. It's not easy to become a chiropractor, is it? It's not a well trodden path, are easier paths to take. you know, if you're looking to do good for the world, you're doing it through that kind of more challenging path sometimes. So, no, that's wonderful. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for your answers. Speaker 2: think it's also the public need to be aware of the level of commitment required by a youngish person, certainly somebody a lot younger than me, to actually get through that course. My daughter's just graduated and obviously I have the pleasure of having two chiropractors in the house and me and the dog just sit in the living room and listen to these pair talking Swahili. ⁓ And the level of education and knowledge, it just blows your mind. You know, and it's like, so I was struggling to get a word in edgeways before about chiropractic. Now I've got no chance. But at the end of the day, the general public and you need to understand what it is you guys have achieved because that was not easy, you know, and keeping up with requirements and working within a framework of the law, which we all know from time to time can be an ass. I mean, you know, it's one of those weird ones where you're

not even allowed to talk about how good you are. So. What the hell? mean, you know, what chance have you got? But you know what? We persevere and like the whole thing with the UCA. You can't, if it's the right message, you cannot stop it. It's gonna happen. Speaker 3: The truth will all spin. Speaker 2: Absolutely. Sorry about that, was a bit of a lecture. Speaker 1: No, that's great. Steve, it's great to hear. That's what we want to hear. So along those lines. Speaker 3: Sorry, was just saying congratulations to Molly too. Speaker 1: ⁓ yes, yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2: The balance should get a lot better now anyway. Speaker 4: We actually had Molly on the podcast recently. so you know, so for anyone listening who's thinking, oh, I recognize the name Molly. Yes, you do from another podcast we've got. Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she's determined to make it the Molly and Holly show. Speaker 4: I like the sound of that. I love the sound of that. Speaker 2: Unfortunately. Luckily she's got a dad, she's not got a dad's trait of not knowing when to stop. So that's great. Speaker 1: Guys, how do you feel that having been able to found something like you have, know, when you found it, you hope it grows legs and continues to go, but 25 years on that, that's a long time. How do you kind of feel that your contributions to association has changed you personally or changed the direction of your life, if of course at all? Do you know, do you feel that it's affected you sort of individually from having contributed at that time? Speaker 2: I'll let you answer that, Rosemary, while I think about an answer. Speaker 3: Well, would say for me, it's shown me that a tiny idea. So think of an acorn, great oak trees grow. It showed me the real truth and the power of that. So just an idea between two people and then what it can grow into. that's how it's affected me personally. I try to step into my power when I realise that, yes, it might just be me. It might just be me and one other person, but that does not diminish ⁓ the idea. So that's, think, what it's shown me that you don't have to be a little man or what can I do? It's only me or it's only us. It's shown me that it can do a lot. So that would be my answer. Speaker 2: For me, was more, I've always had this overriding feeling that I'm invincible and I've always been loud. But there were times when I was just, you know, it's a great idea, but it's one of those ideas that's gonna fly by the wayside. And it just showed me that if there are, in our case, two, three, four of us, because our wives and husbands were supporting us as well, and our close circle of friends, you know, we're gonna do this, but being... on one level for me held to account, but also on another level to have that constant reminder that, yeah, yeah, this is right. This is right. And it isn't, if it's to be, it's up to me. I mean, it's not going to change unless we, and someone's got to do it. ⁓ And even in those days before the general chiropractic

council had any kind of real teeth, ⁓ the level of trepidation and almost fear was palpable. And today I do know that there's still an element of that around, quite a lot of it around. And my only thought is that after 25 years, that can only be intentional. But at the end of the day, ⁓ you can't do it on your own. And you can try and hopefully attract a few people in. But this is one of those really weird situations where we didn't need to do that. We've got all that sorted. ⁓ Speaker 3: but just kind of change. Speaker 1: The Speaker 2: Has it changed me? It's actually probably made me more willing to stand up and say, no, you're wrong. Because now I've got the confidence having seen the UCA grow to know that that little weird idea that we had has turned into something now that you've got back in. And that's the one thing I would say is UCA is 25 years old. We need to understand it's now come of age. know, barring natural disasters or whatever, it ain't going anywhere. So now it's... We're at a point I feel in chiropractic now we're at another nexus point. So unfortunately, Marc and the team, it's over to you guys. I mean, if you want me to get involved, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. But if you want me involved and Rosemary involved, we'll do it. But you've got to be prepared to look everybody in the face and say, no, you're wrong. And this is why you're wrong. And there's still many battles ahead and they're not going to get any easier. But yeah, as Rosemary said, it is a sacred trust. Speaker 1: Well, you never know Steve, we may take you guys up on that offer. we've got it on tape, Holly, we're recording this, right? Speaker 2: I'd like to apologize in advance if that happens. I'm so sorry. Speaker 1: I promise. Speaker 3: It's be kind to Steve, but... Speaker 1: You Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 2: So, I mean, you for me going forward, because I'm always trying to look forward, I'm immensely proud of everything that we've done. I mean, coming down and seeing the headquarters on Friday, I remember doing it out my back room and then in the loft. then, you know, know Matt gave us some space in his office and Melissa's quite right. said, we couldn't even afford to pay our wages. And it's like all this lovely stuff we do. ⁓ Speaker 3: It was Sally and I to start with, wasn't it? It was Sally and I to start with and we travelled over to Matt's office and that's how it started. good to see you. Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to ask how did it feel walking into the head office just last week, seeing that bright green door and coming in? How did it? Yeah, how did that feel for you both? Speaker 2: Quite strange and surreal. Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a bit surreal, but it felt like Chiropractic had a home. It did actually have four walls and it was obviously bustling and busy and I can now see all the faces at the desks or bustling around. So it was nice to visit it and think, it has got a home. Speaker 2: The thing I liked was quite often when you get an organization or a body or an entity or even a person, eventually they grow into something else and your roots, if you like, are forgotten. And that's something that we don't want in Chiropractic. But to come into that office on Friday and to see one of the original t-shirts there and then see the little box that Melissa had, then see Christoph turn up in actual, I was intensely jealous. He's still got one of the original polo shirts. I can't find mine. I was even thinking of having some more made, yeah, I would hold onto it. I mean, I have got about 400 original membership certificates. But when I think of the fine details, what we did, the 54 people who actually put their hands in their pocket and each put £200 in to get this thing going. Speaker 4: so vintage now. Speaker 1: to it. Speaker 2: And I think, I don't think we put a foot wrong with what we spent it on. First of all, because Charlie was monitoring it anyway. But I mean, at the end of the day, when the Articles of Association were drawn up with Paul Stick and I think Estelle, myself, Stuart was involved, I don't remember who else was involved, but it just felt like a coming of age. when Paul presented those two, I think it was either in Burton, on Trent or Solihull, it was like, this thing's real. It's actually a living entity now. But to come down and see that history and it was only two little things but you know that's important that it's guys I mean you know it's ⁓ to me is anyway but maybe I'm just living in the past I don't know but it means a lot to me I don't know how Rosemary feels about that. Speaker 3: I think it's really important to remember history and I do wish our governments would do that and the world would do that so that we don't repeat mistakes from the past. Unfortunately, I think people can tend to forget history and do make the same mistakes. And for the UCA, it was really great that we remember but celebrated the history and where it came from. And it was lovely. It was lovely for me as a founder and I'm sure for Steve as a founder because we didn't really want history to be rewritten, which can happen. So I was just so grateful myself just to be recognized for that. And I've got my lovely award on my desk. ⁓ I'm always trapped for that. Speaker 2: All right. Yeah. I think the other thing, the shout out we need to do is that people kind of get confused about this, but chiropractic essentials actually first happened in the same year. So 2000, there's a lot going on in 2000. ⁓ and I remember, I remember sitting in the hotel with Kim the night before, ⁓ Kim had this nasty habit of, of, of dragging you and opening a bottle of champagne. I've never had champagne in your life. I'm from the Midlands for crying out loud. Um, and then we just sat there because we'd forgotten to actually ask the reception desk, how many people had signed in on the UCA. So we had no clue who was coming. We saw a few old familiar faces downstairs and we'd have to have, we'd have to

have nailed the door shut to stop them from coming. Um, but when we walked into that room, when we stood in the room and people started coming in the next morning, it was like, wow, because I can't, I think it was about a hundred and, I think about 150, 200 or something. I can't remember. Speaker 3: I think about 200, there were quite a lot of people. Speaker 2: Yeah, and we knew it was right because all of the keynote speakers and there were some really big names, Marc Postle, Sigafoo, Stu Bittman, Pat Gintempo, Nairi Cannon, Bill Estead, they all paid their own airfare. I don't think we even paid for their accommodation for most of them, they refused to let us. So it wasn't just us and CE was actually, I think CE is the glue that binds it all together. And I am immensely proud. mean, Kim did the first one and I did the second two in Manchester. But I mean that that it doesn't matter who did it. And I don't think we started paying keynote speakers until well after Melissa took over. But that's just the way we live in, isn't it? It gets too much. But yeah, so I'm really looking forward to seeing this. It should be great. Is it? ⁓ you better get some sleep the week before love. Speaker 4: It's gonna be my first one. Yeah, first ever Speaker 3: 18. Speaker 2: It's pretty dramatic, but I might have some willing volunteers for you your reception. But they all speak Spanish and Italian and French and everything. So good luck with that. Speaker 4: can't wait. ⁓ Everyone who talks about CE, like, and then like you said, this will be the 25th one. So it's not anything new. people speak so highly of it. So I really can't wait. yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think it's to me, and I'm sorry if I offend anybody. Well, I'm not really, but I have to say that I think it is the best chiropractic seminar in Europe, definitely. And having been to a couple of parkers, ⁓ it hasn't got the rah rah of that. hope it never does because we are English. ⁓ But yeah, it's definitely something special and I'm really pleased the way it's just grown and grown and grown. running out of venues that could take it any bigger unfortunately but there we go. Speaker 3: Maybe Webly. Speaker 2: Wembley. ⁓ my god. Speaker 1: We'll see. ⁓ Speaker 3: Yeah. Speaker 4: ⁓ I wanted to ask ⁓ if either of you could leave one guiding principle for the next generation of chiropractors, what would it be? Speaker 3: Well, for me, I would say be the best that you can be. And that's in all ways in your knowledge, continue to learn and in the way that you practice and always be moral, have good ethics. Steve talked about chiropractors, one of the most... difficult things is when chiropractors bring each other down and I just would like chiropractors to come together and let live and let live and so I would say be the best version of yourself. It's not a competition, just be the best version and have high moral ethics not only in your work but also in your personal life. Speaker 2: And I would say never

be, I won't say never be afraid because a little bit of fear is a good thing. But if you know something is right in your core and it feels right, then do it. know, as Rosemary just quite rightly said, as long as your ethics and your vision and your philosophy is correct, you're not going to go far wrong. But, you know, don't be quiet. Don't shut up. I mean, that sounds obvious. but we're living in this world, especially in the world of chiropractic where it's fearful. mean, I'm going to speak out of turn now, but graduates are coming from the UK colleges terrified of the GCC. That's got to stop. You can't do that because it's not fair. We're going to destroy this amazing thing that I think helps millions of people all around the world and could help a lot more. And the lovely thing is that the research we're seeing today is proving maniacs like D.D. Palmer that he's right. You know, and do you know what? He started as a magnetic healer and guess what? That was right too. What do we use now in hospitals? We spend billions of pounds on machines that are just big bloody magnets. mean, come on, before you poo poo an idea, think it through. And if you think you're right, gather your tribe and go for it. And so long as you're not hurting anybody, and so long as it's not destructive, just do it, you know. Speaker 3: Sometimes you have to a bit of a rebel. Those people like Steve Jobs, for example, he was a rebel. All the great people, Sigefu is a rebel. They are all rebels. So I think that, and that's the bit that excites me the most because as long as you have the right intentions, then only good can come of it. And I think we were definitely rebels back in 2000 and ⁓ maybe going forward we still need to have some of that but direct it obviously. Speaker 1: See? Speaker 2: We definitely do. Because I think if we're sat here in another 50 years, well, I wouldn't be. I mean, if somebody is, I'm calling you might stand a chance, but I won't be. I think we'll be having the same conversations. But it's our actions and our intent that will actually get us somewhere, know, pontificating and having meetings for the sake of it. it's just not rubbish. You know, someone needs to stand up and say, actually, that's not right. And that's one of the things I'll say about the UCA defence scheme. know, talk about hitting the nail on the head there. That's incredible. That has saved a lot of really good chiropractors from untold levels of stress. And going forward, it is the crown jewel of the UCA as far as I'm concerned, with the exception of C. But it is. Little services like that that most people wouldn't think of and it's expensive to run and I know that and I get that but you get that letter through your door and I'll tell you what you want it, you need it. And if you've got friends out there listening to this who are not members of the UCA, them a smack around the head with a wet fish and say, you know, get your pen out. sorry, that was my recoupment cap. Now you

see why Neil became president. Speaker 4: I'm gonna crop this, I'm gonna make an advert with exactly that line. Speaker 3: you Speaker 4: wet fish ⁓ dear Speaker 2: I'm from the midlands love it's just where we talk. Speaker 1: I think wonderful comments, wonderful sentiments, beautifully said by both of you, absolutely. And I hope the UCA does do that. I hope it does provide an environment for people to stand up and have the confidence to do so. ⁓ we do, you know, in those rooms, it does make the stand, you know, as it always has done and continues to do. Yeah, well, that's your view, but it's not universally shared. You know, and there are are others who take a different view and it's about that representation, that collaboration we can. Speaker 3: Yeah, After all, Didi and BJ, they were obviously rebels too. They, you know, they would have run with this thing and then BJ developing it. By the way, you, I expect you know, BJ often wore two ties because he couldn't think which he liked both. So he wore them both. He couldn't choose. So in honor of him, I'm wearing one necklace and then another necklace. And I think, why not? I could wear two necklaces if I wanted to. Speaker 2: Yeah, I have the same problem with cheeseburgers and fish and chips. So I usually end up eating both and that's how live the way I do. But anyway. Speaker 1: Guys, if you could be remembered for one thing, what would you like that to be? Speaker 2: of an Egon Asta. Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm to be remembered for one thing. I think for me, it would be that I'm not afraid to stand up and say things that need to be said. As I've grown older, wisdom has come in. So I try to nowadays to do it purposefully, but more kindly because aggression and pushiness in that way just doesn't work. People's defences go up. So I would like to be remembered for that, that she always stood up and spoke, even if it was one voice in a crowd. And also, I think now for always learning, because I still go to things and I continue to learn and I still pick up things, you're never too old to learn. The day I stop learning will be the day that you attend my funeral. So I think that and also for being kind because as I've got older, I've definitely become kinder. Speaker 2: I mean, for me, I don't know where I heard this and I always make stuff up about it, but I think my main purpose in life ⁓ came to me when I went to my first sales seminar, a guy called Zig Ziglar, if some of you may know. The one thing that I've carried with me all my life is that if you can help enough people get what they want, you will always get what you want. And so for me, I would like to be remembered that I helped people. And the other side of that is, I think in life you have three tasks and the first one is to live and the second to love and third one to leave a legacy. Well, I've definitely lived and I do in my own way love people, but my legacy funnily enough actually is my children and my wife and the practice we've set up because hopefully that will go on way beyond us. But when I see the opportunities and the achievements of Izzy and Molly, just blows my mind, you know, and I just feel immensely proud to give them that opportunity. And part of my focus is to give as many people as I can that opportunity. So give people what they want and you'll get what you want. And I feel fulfilled when I see that. So that's me. Did I get soft and soppy there? That's really not like me. Speaker 3: It's only just a moment. Speaker 2: And hit them, of course. Speaker 4: I wanted to ask that if you were to be gifted with a chiropractic superpower for 24 hours, what would it be? Speaker 3: So I thought about this and I would like to be able to be a bit like Spock in Star Trek. I would like to be able to mind meld because I would like to go out to all the chiropractors who really would prefer to have an argument, who are allopathic. And I would like to be able to not just for me, but some of the greats to mind meld and show them the vision. Speaker 1: of Speaker 3: Parapractic, that's the superpower that I would love to have and for some of the greats to have too. Because then I think if we could actually just download it into their brains as it were, they would get it, they would understand it. Speaker 2: I for me, this is where I have a bit of an advantage over you, Marc. I'm not a chiropractor. So for 24 hours, I'd like my superpower to be I am a chiropractor. That's probably as much as the profession could take, but anyway. But for 24 hours, I would like to be able to do what I observe chiropractors do and just to feel what they feel when innate touches innate. ⁓ I'm not saying I don't feel that because I do. quite empathetic, believe it or not. But also, ⁓ so for 24 hours, my superpower would be chiropractic. Speaker 4: Amazing. My next question is DD or BJ and why? Speaker 3: Want to go Steve? Speaker 2: I'm kind of attracted to Dee Dee's beard because I can't grow a beard, just impossible. I look like fuzz and it itches. So I love the beard. I also like him because he was a nutter and he didn't mind being mental. And I think that we need more of that in today's world. But I also, so it would predominantly be Dee Dee. However, I also admire the fact that his son thought enough of this thing. to develop it. So, B.J. did the hard work, if I'm honest. D.D. was just the ideas person. So, I resonate more with D.D. ⁓ But mostly for the beard, if I'm honest. Speaker 3: So for me, I would have to say both. How can you have one without the other? Dee Dee discovered it, as it were, and had the nous to think, hmm, there's something in this. And then BJ took it forward. And that must have been, they must both have been regarded as nutters, but they went ahead and did it anyway. So how could you really have one? one without the other because it was important that BJ took it forward and he did. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 3: And we have pictures of him in the clinic to remember him. Speaker 4:

Great answers. Now, for both of you, if you were to have a dinner party, who would your four ideal guests be? And they can be dead or alive. Speaker 3: Well, for me, that would be easy. I mean, I'd have to have my husband there, obviously, right? But I would also have BJ there, because I would love to question him. I would have David Attenborough there, because, that man is just a national treasure. And they really should listen to him at all the COP summits about climate change. He's just amazing. And then the other person I would have for a bit of fun, but also intellectual prowess would be Stephen Fry. Speaker 1: Okay. Speaker 2: For me, Sigafus, because I miss him. Stuart, because I'd like to show him what we did, although I he knows, so Stuart Rinsburger would definitely be there. I would have to say I would put Nairi Cannon in the mix. I suppose, as Rosemary said, my wife, but that's taken up a place. So she can serve the tea. No, not ⁓ joking. Then I would want somebody who I think has inspired me over the years just to get it. I quite like Rosemary at that table. Yeah, Yeah, the only Rosemary I know. Unless there's another one. Because I just think the conversations we would have with that lot would be incredible. We couldn't have Dee Dee there because I couldn't look past his beard. ⁓ Speaker 3: ⁓ me. Speaker 2: for me it would be, I'd like to get around that table people who have been instrumental in my, I suppose my chiropractic philosophy over the years. And we'd have to have an outside observer there, a lovely lady called Nairi Cannon, who again we miss terribly. Top of the table would be Stuart, because it would be a look at what we did mate. Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. even though Stuart was ⁓ a quiet person and not loud and not out there, he was very strong and his presence was very powerful. Yeah, I miss him. Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean when we started this thing that of the evening we came back to mark to our house to finish writing the articles of association midnight Stuart left and he said the reason why I've got to go is because I always spend my birthday morning watching the sun go up on a cliff and he turned 40 that day. know and he left his family to come and do this and yeah. Speaker 3: But there you go. Speaker 1: I never had the pleasure of meeting Stuart, but ⁓ people speak so highly of him. And obviously we have the Stuart Rinsburg Award in recognition of him every year at CE. And yeah, it's quite a legacy. Speaker 2: You wouldn't have known he was in the room. You wouldn't have known, you know, but when it was time to say something and you said it, he listened. Speaker 4: I wanted to ask as well, how would you both describe chiropractic to a five-year-old? Speaker 3: Well, it would have to be, I think, quite simple, not because children don't understand. I think they understand more than we give them credit for. But I think because they get a bit bored ⁓ and so their attention is suddenly drawn somewhere else. So I would say really chiropractic is about helping your body's power and to work properly so that you can go and You can go run, jump and play. I'd keep it that simple. Speaker 2: Yeah. Five year old is about my level. so I'm okay with this. So I would just be, well, I did take a decision to make everything. say that the level of a 10 year old and I got it wrong. So I had to reduce it to five and then, then it started to work. But, I would, I would just say to a five year old, look, if you want to be the best you can be and stay working as well as you can either go and see a Chara practice, but better still become one. And that would be it. ⁓ You know, because I don't think there's any greater calling for somebody who's so minded than this thing. I mean, I'm eternally jealous. I did have the opportunity of studying at New Zealand College, but more apostles managed to talk me out of it. ⁓ But yeah, it's all good. That's what I would do. Speaker 1: Thank you. And I guess the last question that we like to ask everyone on the podcast, if you mind both finishing this sentence, chiropractic is. Speaker 3: Amazing, transformative, empowering, enriching. That's what I would say. Speaker 2: I'll just say the answer. Speaker 1: mm Speaker 2: ⁓ nice. Good. Speaker 4: Nicely done. Thank you both so, so much. Marc, was there any other questions that you wanted to ask or anything I may have missed? Speaker 1: there Holly, right? ⁓ I think it's been a great conversation. We really appreciate you both giving up your time to be on it. You as we said, you're welcome. As we said at the Founders Day, you know, somebody has to start these ideas rolling and you guys were the ones that did that. So on a personal level, I'm eternally grateful. You know, I've been involved with UCA for a good while. It's made a huge impact on my life and many of my... my colleagues and we hope we can carry the torch forward. But it has to start with people and what a wonderful group of people, including yourselves it was. So thank you very much. Speaker 2: Perfect. You're welcome. Speaker 4: Thank you so much. That was really, really enjoyable having you both on today. I actually just came up with one last question for you. Who would you like us to get in touch with to interview next? Anyone that comes to mind that you think, oh, we need them on the podcast, know, any or questions you might have for them, always open to suggestions. So if any names come to mind. Speaker 3: Postles haven't already happened. ⁓ Speaker 4: Actually got, we do actually have him scheduled, but I'm really glad you said that. I'm really glad because I'm looking forward to chatting with him and I know our listeners are too. Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think also I'm going to be selfish for a moment. Neil, my husband. Speaker 2: Yeah. ⁓ Speaker 3: because he loves chiropractic, it's who he is. And he doesn't, he's also quite quiet, but he has a lot of thoughts to bring. So I think that would be my choice, yeah. Speaker 2: I'm going to be a bit follow Rosemary on that one. I would quite like you to see somebody like Molly, my daughter, a newly graduated, fresh face, looking forward to the world. It might be interesting to grab her and a few of her friends. I will pre-warn you, you won't get away in edgeways. ⁓ The only other suggestion might be get Anne and Neil together because they can just prove how much of what we've said was completely wrong. ⁓ But be warned that I think there's lots of great people out there and everybody to the big speakers but you know what there's quite achievers out there that just chittle along and do it every single day and don't lift their head up and just get on with it and I see a lot of them all around but that would be... I would like us to introduce some Youngblood into this. And let's, if you want to know where we want Chiropractor to go in the future, ask the people who have at the start of that journey and looking for that future. And so I would, and then it could really be the Molly and Holly show. Yeah. Awesome. Speaker 4: Well, thank you both so much. Thank you for today and thank you for all you've done 25 years ago and beyond. Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome. Speaker 3: Thank you. Thanks for having us. You're very welcome.