ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Now that the dust has settled after the first major democratic debates, who will be left standing on the next stage? 

While Kamala Harris distinguished herself with a particularly strong performance on the second night, host Josh Barro thinks Joe Biden might still be OK. Did the candidates give President Trump a gift for the campaign by raising their hands to offer up healthcare to undocumented immigrants? We talk about how the candidates barely talked about why so many immigrants are coming to the United States. The Daily Beast columnist and special guest Keli Goff wondered why Marianne Williamson was even on the stage, but Josh says he found her delightful. And we look at the Supreme Court’s ruling on gerrymandering.  

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TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00This is Josh barro and welcome to left. Right and Center your civilized it provocative antidote to a self-contained opinion bubbles the dominant political debate. It's the last week of June and this week. We saw the first Democratic presidential debates or to beats. I should say there are 25 candidates in Democratic field and the party made space for 20 of them by having to 10% Abate spread across two nights and well, hair is admonish her fellow candidates in Americans don't want a food fight. They want to how do I put food on the table? The debates did give us a view into some of the divisions and distinctions that will help voters decide who to nominate we're gonna spend most of today show breaking down what we learn from the debates with the end. We will take a look at two important Supreme Court decisions about the census and gerrymandering now, let's bring it or left right and Center panel as always. I'm your Center and join me today or Tim Carney, Terry editor at the Washington examiner on the right and left lane Olin call. Mrs. Washington Post. Hello. Hi there. Hey Josh. Also joining us for the whole show. Today is Kelly Gough colonists at The Daily Beast. Hi Kelly the news highlight of the debate.
00:01:00Well, I need the news highlight. Is it basically Kamala Harris did to Joe Biden what Bernie Sanders did the Hillary Clinton which is I think she hobbled the front-runner enough that even if she doesn't end up beating him. She may end up possibly suppressing some of the voter turnout. He would need to beat Donald Trump. I thought probably her start run was really the moment where they were discussing race and how she felt hurt by something that a Vice President Biden said, this is what the, said Vice President Biden had made about working with segregation is Senator. Is it back in the 1970s? And then they went on to talk about some of the right but what I was going to say is what I think is interesting and I actually think I could turn out being the moment that winter the primary of but I actually think it would end up being the moment the cost for the general election. If she were to end up being the nominee in part because I actually agree with something that I know that Tim car needs book talks about about which is this idea that particular for working class white male voters who President Obama won and some of the key swing States the more that they are reminded about
00:02:00So-called white male privilege the less likely they are to engage with cabinets on the left and I think that that was a moment that was a real winner for her and in this debate, but I don't know how far that gets her new general. Let's play some sound from that exchange that Senator Kamala Harris had with former Vice President Biden today. Do you agree today that you were wrong to oppose busing in America. Do you agree or did not oppose busing in America? What I opposed is bussing ordered by the Department of Education. That's what I oppose. I did not oppose public schools in America. I was the second class to integrate Berkeley California public school's almost two decades after Brown V Board of Education decision was
00:02:51How to preserve the civil rights of Irish for 35 years, we got to the place where we got 98 out of 98 votes in the United States Senate doing it. I have also largely very strongly that we deal with the notion of the nine people access valve box. I agree that everybody want stay inside the what did you make of that exchange? A lot of people really thought that by did not perform very well there to say the least, Harris and reminded me of the old proverb if you come for the king you best not mess. Wow. Did she not mess? She took over from the beginning of that debate first when she child.
00:03:51The NBC moderators when they ask about how to pay for programs. She said why aren't you asking Republicans how they're paying for tax cuts for the rich and so she set up this narrative right from the start. But even more than simply challenging biting on his answer. She left by himself reveal how ill-prepared and how not ready he was for this debate and it goes back to some of the things I talked about on the show last week, but I can has been often lacks days ago and many of his performances. He feels ill prepared. He's not ready he feels it feels like he's coasting kind of on his FrontRunner status and that he sort of wasn't expecting to be challenged which is sort of odd when you have 20 people more than 20 people running against you for the same as what I was equally shocked because the two most obvious attacks on Biden are his age and possibly some of his comments or butter for former policies when it comes to raise and so he should have had the ready to go.
00:04:51Remember when Ronald Reagan said I'm not going to hold my opponents Youth and inexperience against him which was the perfect one liner to sort of deflate any arguments about Reagan's age and yet when Bynes age got brought up he kept stumbling and that exchange with, Harris. He seemed woefully unprepared. I do want to Echo something that you just said, which is, Harristown in the moderators. I have to got one of her strong this moment in terms of motivating and inspiring women was when she challenged Chuck Todd when he tried to shut her when they were discussing race and she pointed out I'm actually the only black person on the state. I like to weigh in on this because I've been on a million shows where I've had a million guys talk over me when it's a topic like birth control or sexual harassment and it was really great to see a woman call out a moderator love for a moment like that when I had to do with race, but I will say, you know, I've been on the show before and discuss the fact that my mom's very providing. I think she has a secret crush on him and which she should my mother said something interesting up the pole I do with her after all of these debates, and she said that he seemed afraid to attack, hair.
00:05:51Like he was worried it would blow up in his face. And after my mother said that I did think about something Josh which is I actually think that the positioning on the stage could buy that a bit of a disadvantage because him standing right next to, Harrison reminded me of Congressman Rick Lazio is one of the nicest people I've ever been in politics, but the moment that really killed Blasio Senate campaign against Hillary Clinton was that moment where he walked over and after sign that campaign pledge and he didn't look like the nicest man in politics. He look like a man bullying a woman. So I do think there was a bit of something of that going on there, but I still think all-in-all he just he just lives a bad performance on his part well and and further, Le knew that on that the speech she gave before she asks us what a very direct question to buy in about busing today on the speech she gave about the history of that. She knew that these moderators who had been forced to cut off tons of people. There was no way they were going to cut off, Harris a black woman who grew up and had experienced that segregation when she was giving assoc. I think hurt her debating.
00:06:51Is absolutely excellent and last night was the first time that we really got to see that she owned and I think she's got a very good chance of being the nominee if it was somebody besides Biden or, at this point, I would be surprised but I also would say that the challenging Chuck Todd that a why doesn't the media ever point out that tax cuts add to the deficit that that was laughable for so I know that maybe Democrats sometimes I envy the fact that Republicans get to beat up on the media light and they don't get to do it enough. But every time a tax cut is debated half of the press coverage is that decided to add to the deficit? I don't know that that's a winning strategy. I'm in a Democratic primary, but certainly she'll be tough. She will fight anybody. She has to fight. She's a prosecutor out for blood is really Brown says and she's going to throw punches and as as the other two were saying here fighting is not really in shape to take those punches very well at least among the people commenting on Twitter, but I actually thought that binds performance was pretty
00:07:51I didn't think it was perfect. I thought basically his strategy was to play the hits. I think he has a pitch that's very simple and that connects a lot with ordinary voters in the Democratic primary. Even if it doesn't connect with a lot of the people in the media are in the commentary of the most active activist in the party, which is to say, this Trump's Trump is weird and terrible and and consumes too much attention and wouldn't it be nice for things to be normal again? We like the Obama Administration. Why don't we do that? And so I think this actually slightly backward-looking Vision Not Looking Back 50 years like trumpet looking back 3 years. I think it feels to a lot of people and it's a fairly simple thing to message. You just played ahead to talk about all the things that you did with Barack Obama that people like you talk about things in your legislative record. He talked about, you know, well people here talk about guns, but I brought the Brady Bill and I got the I got the assault weapons ban put in in the 1990s and those sorts of things, and I thought that you were over and over again, even though I thought he was not as crisp and Polished as you probably should have been and I think the Kamala Harris scored some points in that exchange. I thought he mostly got his message.
00:08:51Very simple message. I think he got it out repeatedly and I think the voters who that's going to appeal to I think it was like what he did last night is what what what what is what is the audience for that is my question is is he maybe it's both is he going for the upper middle class voters who you know generally vote little bit Republican but this time voted overwhelmingly Democrat in 2018 giving them the house or you go to enforce her to the blue collar guys who may be voted for Obama then voted for Trump, but now voted for the Democrat for governor because if he's going for the blue collar voter there, I don't think they're very movable anybody who voted for Trump. I don't think they have enough reason to move away from him so far if he's trying to be blue collar Joe. I just don't see that that electrons that movable. I actually agree with you that if you're going for the sort of I call it Trump light though. It's really not Trump lie, but that's the easiest way to think of it. If you're going for that crowd. They're probably going to stay with Donald Trump short of a reception. I actually agree with you on that one. I think the issue is though it comes back.
00:09:51The issue of is Biden really up for this he just is he really going to want to put in the amount of work and so far we don't have the evidence that he does and I want to make just add one thing. This is not necessarily an age issue because Bernie Sanders is even older and he does at least feel like he wants to do the work. So it's interesting because I actually agree with what Josh said, which is I actually think that the voters that Biden is Bynes campaign is banking on one did not watch the debate and a lot of them don't know or care what busing is and that's a very I know no one wants to hear that but the reality is even if you were to ask someone under 42 explain why busing how the racial connotation most of them could not tell you and we're talking about this issue because we covered that stuff. So I think that a bind us have his eyes on the prize on people like my mother and if she's any indication than the debates not going to change. I actually do think you have a chance with some of his working-class voters and that's bring me back to what my initial analysis was which is those white working-class voters Kamala Harris campaign was not helped in that moment discussing race.
00:10:51Those voters as I think that bind actually kind of staying fairly calm about that issue and not getting as well as he could have been me and he still gunning for the Trump light or whatever you call it people who voted for Obama want to see something else though. And that's part of the conversation of of who binds banking on you know, again, we we've shown it there is a huge divided between so-called, you know average dog odor and those of us who cover the stuff of possibly and what we talked about and care about reparations busing all of these things are there probably not I'm going to resonate with the average voter the kerfuffle that. Vine in trouble on raise to me as part of that which is he got in trouble for simply saying I was willing to negotiate with people who are segregationist and he was making the point that today you don't even have conversations with people that you so disoriented profound issues and he got crucified for that and I was kind of what TWP him being a bit vulnerable in this upcoming debate what it was fascinating as one that 20 years ago. I don't think someone would have gotten in trouble for saying I'm willing to negotiate with someone who opposes same-sex marriage. I want to talk to them and
00:11:51I'm in the room so we can get some on the table and I have to say I've written about this, you know, I consider myself somewhat of a recovering homophobe considering the way I was raised in terms of some of the religious beliefs I have and I'm so grateful everyday for my gay friend who did not give up on me and he's ever going to keep talking and educating. I can't imagine what my life would be like and even with their lives would be like in terms of policies if they rode every person off who had a viewpoint but they didn't agree with policy-wise as a what he's getting criticized for among some of the the progressive base is exactly what I think actually helps them and it in a general with swing voters. What if there's two components to the criticism of Joe Biden around that one has to do with you know, when you talk about specific people like Mississippi Senator James Eastland, I've had their views were so morally abhorrent that you shouldn't have been working with them or at least you shouldn't talk about them in such a fun way. You can talk about it as a necessity without sort of like reminiscing like it was nice to have someone doesn't agree with me on an issue.
00:12:51Never have a conversation with them on any policy if you ever and I think that's gets our country not wear a lot of us on the right though. Like I know a lot of people who look at that and they say, okay. Yeah, I agree actually maybe sort of the whole idea of working nicely with segregation as makes me happy that we should draw a line there. But then when we see we're late people like Kamala Harris or Nancy Pelosi World frankly a lot of corporate America want to draw the life. We start to get worried. We have major corporations saying that it's in Georgia and Alabama because they pass pro-life lost. Now, you won't do business with them. It seemed sauce. I look at this as a social conservative. I look at, and some of that attack and I say I'm worried that they're now saying if you are pro-life if you belong to the Knights of Columbus, that was one of her little Crusades if you if you're pro-life religious person, then you are beyond the bounds. You are just like Eastland in these guys and no we are no longer for being congenial and and being nice to and end at
00:13:51To work together with people who hold morally abhorrent used and now we're getting thrown on the other side of it. That's what makes somebody like caramel extra scary. Does this matter in the Democratic primary? I don't know because at least among the online left. There's a lot of passion for that sort of block out the right point of view of Joe Biden and bipartisanship is either the Republicans are different now than they were decades ago and they're not going to cut deals with you and you're just going to get rolled or you're going to go into these deals and going to compromise on things. You shouldn't compromise on so I think you know what that what time is referencing darling I think is real but I think for a lot of the Democratic primary voters, they're on the opposite side of that attend. They want to say yeah, we wanted to find more of these things is beyond the pale and worried that Joe Biden won't do that. I actually agree with that. I think the issue is that vitamin keeps appealing to some semi imaginary past but wasn't really quite what he's describing and second was really 30-40 years in many cases, especially in his
00:14:51Cast of actually meeting Republicans in an increasingly conservative positions over and over again and something that we that hasn't come up today is is the the energy of women in the party and this is also something to Biden's kind of on the wrong side of by Vedo compromised on women's rights, especially with the Hyde Amendment repeatedly Tim Carney of the Washington examiner helaine Olen of the Washington Post and Kelly golf of The Daily Beast. You're listening to left right and Center. What do you think share your thoughts on Today Show on our Facebook page or tweet us at lrc, KCRW and download the KCRW app to listen to left right and Center on demand.
00:15:37on the newest episode of Nocturne
00:15:41cheating women getting lost in a forest like what's going to happen if they're going to getting nearly murdered if we scream in this Forest no one's going to know we would both sort of stop and talk and say like do you feel like someone's watching us right. Now? You know that feeling when someone's eyes are on you and we would both feel that like at the exact same time and it happened probably three or four times in the night. I knocked her wherever you listen to podcasts.
00:16:09Back again with left, right and Center. I'm Josh barro of New York Magazine on the right is Tim Carney, Terry editor of the Washington examiner on the left is helaine Olen colonists of the Washington Post and Telegraph columnist of The Daily Beast is also with us both debates this week started with conversations about the economy and variations on the economy is really good right now. So how do you convince people big changes are needed here is what Elizabeth Warren had to say about that on Wednesday. So I think of it this way, who is this economy really working for it's doing great for thinner and thinner slice at the top and showing great for giant drug companies not doing great for people are trying to get a prescription filled. It's doing great for people who want to invest in private prisons. Just not for the Nexus families were torn apart. His lives are destroyed and his communities are ruined. It's doing great for giant oil companies that want to drill everywhere.
00:17:09Usher watching climate change bear down upon us when you've got a government that does great for those with money and isn't doing great for everyone else that is corruption turn simple. We need to call it out. We need to attack it head-on collision want to listen to that. I really wonder if it was only 1% of Americans say it's a good time to find a high-quality job. That's the highest percentage saying that since they started asking the question in 2003 only 14% of Americans name a problem related to the economy at the biggest problem facing America, which is close to the lowest level on that question in two decades. So I don't know that I buy Elizabeth Warren's premise that it's only people at the top who feel like this economy is doing well. Now I think it's unit when you look at the survey data Americans buy a larger satisfied with the economy. I don't know that it's going to work to tell them actually the economy is bad making the Democrats have a bit of a problem here. There's no question. The economy is better than it's been at any point saint.
00:18:09The Great Recession I I think anybody who says otherwise is somewhat diluted at this point on the other hand. There's also no question that income inequality and stagnation still seem to be an incredible issue and that the rising cost of things like Health Care education and housing are incredible issue in people's lies the issue becomes. How do you express that and say these are the things that are economically destroying you with still with in this economy that is actually working and a better way that it has in a long time. And I think this is where all of the Democrats or stumbling a bit because it is a very hard lines child actually think that this is a was also winning moment for Kamala Harris go in the debate because I actually thought she did a pretty good job explaining interfere with something fashion, which is economies working great for some people but can we actually say it's working great for someone who's having to work one two, or three jobs to keep a roof over their head.
00:19:09Gen Z and Millennials gig economy people. I actually thought that that's what she was targeted trying to go for some of those sanders voters who are part of the gig economy and who may not be happy with how they've done with her student loan debt if that's what was my rate of that and I've got two more numbers here. I mean, so if you look at wages have increased about 7% in the in the US since Trump took office, but almost all of that is what is what the Bureau of Labor Statistics call production and non-supervisory workers and 11% increase in less than three years. That's amazing. And that's because we've had sustained unemployment below 4% and even a slight uptick over the last three years in Workforce participation. So things are amazing, but you know what the slack in the economy is Ben has taken up until now you have this bidding war for workers. That's good news for anybody wants to go out and get a job. And so that's this is just does not look like what Warren and and Kamala are describing. Yes. There's a a
00:20:09They're deeper problems in their hand over the last sixty years. It's really been bad for the working class guy. But over the last three it's kind of been swing up and then the public perception as as Josh was pointing out other is great. So I just don't understand why Democrats think this is a winning argument. It's factually fault and it appears falls to the electorate more nuanced argument which may not be popular outside of the democratic party, but I think we could work with again some of the Bernie voters which is their Bernie voters who have college degrees and student loan debt and I'm not happy with their lives is not that isn't that is why all the articles about what's wrong with the millennial generation or written. It's not because everyone completely fan flailing but you do have certain people who have a job, but they're living with their parents and they're not happy about that. So the argument that I think the Warrens in the harrises in the Sanders of the world are really making to them is that you've been shortchanged you may not be unemployed. You may have a job, but this was not the American dream that you were your parents saw for yourself.
00:21:09But I really think those are the motors are going for not the people who were completely unemployed and facing homelessness. I just don't think that's representative of the public in particular. I think the concerns of young people especially with post-graduate degrees who aren't finding the jobs that they wanted to find were heavily Laden with student loan debt in the people with the largest and Loan balances are almost always people with post-graduate degrees. Those people are real a lot of them are in a much worse than actual position and they would like to be but it's just not very much of the public. And so I think again you see that you also see this in the in the way of the primary electron. I mean, that's a group that skews younger. Most Americans don't have a postgraduate degree. I took away some of the standard daughters who are very motivated because that's probably a large part of his him a graphic because these are the two places where people are most likely to run into financial trouble student loans. We no across-the-board no matter what your income level pretty much if you have them you will have less in the way of retirement savings you are less likely to own.
00:22:09House, if your female you're less likely to be married if you want to start a business entrepreneurship has been impacted by them. There's no question. This is a huge issue in the economy. And it's why it keeps coming up. The same is true for healthcare. And this is where you hear appeals for Medicare for all and various other plans to rain in Pharma prices, right? We know that you know Healthcare health insurance costs have been going fairly traumatic rates and part that's because of stuff Trump has done to the ICA, but regardless it's real we know that people are increasingly have for figure deductibles the majority of people now unemployed or health insurance plans are facing $1,000 or more and deductibles before they even see a penny and insurance payments. This isn't causing incredible Financial stress. We know that if you are diagnosed with cancer if there is a 40% chance, you will have run through your complete life savings within two years and this is where the Democrats are coming in as fake people like Elizabeth Warren people like Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris.
00:23:09Aren't you think a conservative has a better argument to make about how things aren't as good for young people today than a liberal does maybe Tucker Carlson orders want to make it just kind of referred to this. But if you think of short of a populist end is culturally conservative argument, you could say a guy used to be able to go to high school graduate high school get married when they start having kids his wife could stay home and with that job if he's willing to show up on time every day make enough money to to raise his family well and probably some day of or of 40 cabin out on the boat in a little fishing boat where he can take his family Marco Rubio used to tell that story a little bit and that sort of blue-collar story of how life was, you know, there was his path to the good life that didn't involve a college degree didn't involve the family of your parents working two or three jobs and it sort of modest in its goals not this, you know, every every person has to be great entrepreneurs at the Republican sometimes fall into it. I think that's actually the strong argument.
00:24:08Democrats said to make that but Buddha short of refer to that during the debate in the end. That could be a promising line Elizabeth Warren used to write about quite a bit and all you're worth it literally wrote the book on this is about her career was talking about this issue and how families became under increasing increasing stressed because of the rising cost of healthcare housing education and simple bad luck in the American economy. This is what the two-income trap us about. This is what our personal finance book. All your worth is about is the fact that we used to be able to send this is what her story about her mother going to work with her father had a heart attack is about it was that her mother had been held in reserve the issue with Warren and said, she's never really quite figured out how to bring that in line with the feminist, you know, push that everybody's both people at the house.
00:25:08I would make an argument that you couldn't easily make this argument by simply saying well one person could stay at home and it really doesn't matter who it is, but that's not something very few people seem willing to May Concern that liberals have about making what I think about you the biggest argument then all of this is that not everyone should go to college and everyone needs a college degree. And we also have a lot of white-collar professionals who are requiring college degrees for jobs. We don't need the right one of the things I bring up all the time. Is there so many people in Hollywood Barry Diller David Geffen people who became Legends who did not have college degrees, but you try applying for one of their companies to be an assistant without a college degree from an expensive school. You want me to call back. So why are we allowing patent to define the American dream as much as it as it as it is when you can make a really good living as a plumber, you know, I don't understand. How do you want to just jump in for a second time? Because I've actually been to a bunch of conferences this year and you overwhelmingly hero, you know, the wealthy people that place is like milk and say things like yes, why why are we requiring a college degree, but they're still
00:26:08The college that's the issue. And and by the way, this is also an untold part of a great College Scandal USC is one of the great job production lines in Southern California, of course people were trying to get their accounts on there. I want to talk about the other big cost driver that we were talking a little bit about here, which is Healthcare and to Helene's point about you know, even people with health insurance often find themselves with very high out-of-pocket cost. Is there something, Harris talked about in the debate you had these questions about so would you get rid of private insurance and go to a system where everybody has to go on a government plan and it's always in the context of pulling the shows that like that the concept of medicare-for-all is popular, but you tell people they're going to have to give up their private Planet becomes a lot less popular. It's a Bernie Sanders made the pitch. What I think is the pitch you would have to make if you're actually going to try to move around to a government plan trying to argue that that plan will be better than the private plan you have even if you currently feel like you don't want to give that plan up.
00:27:06Is the most popular health insurance program in the country people don't like their private insurance companies. They like the doctors and hospitals. They want any hospital they want we will substantially lower the cost of Healthcare in this country. The greed of the insurance company for me to go to run against that position. That's right because Bernie Sanders is the one who proposed the Medicare for all Bill and he explicitly Outlaws private insurance and he has to Outlaw private insurance because the way he gets his sort of savings when he explained all well your Healthcare spending will go down the way he gets his savings is from the buying power the monopsony buying power of a single-payer gets to basically set the prices. So he says Healthcare will cost less because one person the government is going to be doing all the paying and they can drive down the prices and that absolutely is not
00:28:06Populist why Obama had to pretend that you got to keep your plan people telling people a the government's going to pay for everybody. There's there's not as much enthusiasm for that as as people on the left. My think we'll be at the same time. We're going to take away your private plan. I think that that is both immoral and it's politically disastrous and one of the things that the horniest each of these efforts is falling apart in the legislative process, even when there was strong putative support from legislative leaders because the price tag was just so high they couldn't find all the money in a way that was politically palatable palatable in order to implement the system. Why isn't that a lesson about it being also very difficult with the federal level because we're at the federal government as we famously know does not and second. This is actually something that's probably impossible to accomplish on a state level because there is no State not even California in my view that has the power to go up against them.
00:29:06Industrial complex, right? They're not going to negotiate with big Pharma the way a federal government can and that's just reality and there's this to me has been one of the great in a waste of time if everybody the states are not going to do this, but it's going to have to come from the federal government. I think that this entire conversation must be making the Trump campaign very happy because it gets that the heart of one of the questions at the debate which was about the party and socialism and you know, it's kind of like laughed off but it's actually not a laughing matter to any Democratic candidates, which is a Gallup poll that I've been tracking for years and years and they've been tracking how changing attitudes about voting for a gay candidates black candidates Latino candidates just sort of anyone is from underrepresented group and want to the two categories that had the least amount of movement. Josh has traditionally been would you vote for an atheist presidential candidate? Those numbers are very low.
00:30:05And would you vote for a socialist Kevin at those numbers have actually move. But the only moved up among young people which again get the heart of the problem for Democrats. If this becomes a campaign where the Trump campaign can successfully frame it as a as an election between Donald Trump with all of his flaws and baggage and the future of America of socialism. I think the Trump campaign once I think I just need to pay to sit Obamacare is popular now in the Trump administration's efforts to undermine that have been unpopular the efforts to appeal have been unpopular the candidates are weirdly unenthusiastic about defending and arguing in favor of Obamacare with the exception of buying who I think that's that's it's like, you know you have this thing that Trump has handed you as a gift. He's trying to do this very unpopular thing. He he can't bring himself to stop talking about wanting to repeal Obamacare even though he's it's been demonstrated is impossible in Congress in Washington. And so you would think that can be a winning issue for you and ObamaCare really did expand health coverage for lot of people who didn't have it previously. I kind of
00:31:05Strange how how reluctant they are to tout that I actually can explain this a little bit. This is very few. People are actually on Obamacare or benefit from it. Most people are dealing with their day-to-day health insurance, and we know that we have this weird cuz I'm driving and health insurance people say on one hand. They like it which I think is mostly about loss aversion. They don't they're afraid of what's going to come after it. But second we also know there and facing increased cost is a result of that. And so this is where you where you go. I thought the person who did not get her do in this argument at all was Kirsten gillibrand who made the common sense point that most people want the option to buy into Medicare. This is absolutely true. We know it from every bit of polling data and furthermore made the also I believe Common Sense point that if you open up that option to people it is likely to decrease the power and the and the place of the Private health insurance industry in the United States and probably much more rapidly than any of us think because in fact a problem
00:32:05Cannot compete with Medicare and people like Medicare if they say they're against socialism then ask them why they're they are taking their Medicare Medicare is government-provided health insurance. I want to talk about another issue that did featured extensively in both debate, which was immigration managing the crisis the Border deciding who can immigrate the future what to do about the 11 million people currently live in the United States without legal authorization to what struck you about this conversation Savannah Guthrie at one point said raise your hand if your government plan this is Health Care provide coverage for undocumented immigrants, and of course all 10 hands when I basically the idea and you also had a question about should illegally entering the country basically be decriminalized. So something approaching open borders also with an enticement of government provided Healthcare. This is sort of an invite the whole world to America now is a dogma of the democratic party, whoever you
00:33:05If you want your health care paid for you come here, and anybody who enters illegally. It's at you are not going to be a criminal this I think is incredibly improving and I'm not even like a super deficit hawk guy, but I just don't think it's it's practical you would run out of doctors eventually, but I also think it's politically it's a gift to Donald Trump to say hate that you want to cancel your healthcare plan and put you on a government-run program that will also be the same one that any sick person from Mexico to Vietnam can come and claim as well. It's it's totally unworkable ate a plate into this very pie-in-the-sky image that is easy to cast of socialists and people on the left and it's just it seems to me that it's a decreasing case of this sort of extreme is Dogma on the left where nobody can just say actually as Obama used to say actually do need to really control our borders more tightly. We do need to look into reforms on immigration weed.
00:34:05I need to say not everybody gets to get on RR medicare-for-all. I'm of two minds about this. I think Tim observes correctly. The Democratic candidates have moved far to the left of where they used to be on immigration a decade ago or two decades ago, but I'm not sure it's a case of the party sort of being dragged to the left by a non-representative activist base because there's been a huge shift in public opinion on immigration over the last couple of decades in the mid-90s 65% of Americans to the immigration level should be decreased that's Fallen by more than half only 31% of respondents. Tell Gallup. They want less immigration 30% actually say they want more immigration. So I think in part this is a reaction to an electorate that is less opposed immigration that used to be in that contains a significant chunk of third of the of the of the electorate who says they really actually want more immigrants in United States because I think it depends on the type of immigrant and I don't mean by ethnicity or race. I think that there is an understanding that for that we have a decrease in the store number of people we need for feels like Nurses Aide.
00:35:05That's one of the Predators that we're not going to have enough people to fill those roles tech industry. I also think that most people in the pool and seems to indicate this believe it's inhumane to separate parents from their children that does not mean that most Americans want open borders and I think Tim is completely right. I actually think that that moment where they were asked to raise their hand is going to be in a trump campaign ad because the average American recognizes may not know the ins-and-outs in details of immigration policy, but they recognize a few Basics which is that we don't have enough money to subsidize everyone who come to this country without their own form of gainful employment. We don't answer the question becomes who's going to pay for People's Health Care who's going to pay for any government benefits and subsidies they need and for the average American that is not a winning argument to Simply say who our country is is someone who lets everyone in that sounds lovely to say in theory. Yes, that is who America is but there's also the basics of actually who's going to pay for all of these services and that's where I think it's a losing
00:36:05Argument for the Democratic campaign. I think what you saw is two things. That was a very winning moment in the primary for Kamala Harris when she made that argument, I think again that becomes an albatross sure to get the nomination we agree with you, but I also actually think you can make an argument for including undocumented people in at least some Health Care coverage and I'm actually surprised nobody mentioned it during the debates. There's there's two parts of this first if there's some form of epidemic or infectious disease of round. They don't know if somebody has germs don't know if someone is here undocumented or hear legal aid huge huge issue that mean as a Jewish mother this is actually the thing that keeps me up at night that one day this is going to happen and we're going to have some sort of mass swine flu or something right, but it's not an unreasonable fear and there's no question that because of the large number of people in our country without health insurance both your undocumented and people who were born here. It is going to be made much worse by our Healthcare System actually if
00:37:05Have a government healthcare plan. You will bring costs down and as a result, it will actually be easier to have people here who are outside the system when Americans go to Europe and something happens and we're not covered. We're quote not covered. People are always shocked to discover. Wait open heart surgery cost $900. I think people can't believe it. It's but it's much less of an issue. Once you have the cost under control a huge part of the issue here is simply are out of control costs what specifically of the crisis at the border. I mean, obviously nobody likes the way the Trump Administration has been handling this did we hear a plan about what they would do to alleviate the situation because this isn't, you know, this isn't Trulia creation by their trunks minor Trump's incompetence. There is in fact and unprecedented number of people who are arriving at the border either is unaccompanied minors or family units either entering illegally or seeking asylum in a port of entry and so it's it's it's a situation that hasn't had to be dealt with before that is complicated and that you
00:38:05A plan for that then stop being like Donald Trump. I think Democrats have a lot of hard problem dealing with this particular again. The the thing about providing government-provided Healthcare government-funded Healthcare to illegal immigrants isn't just a question of if you're here and you're sick, you should be cared for whether you're legal or not. It acts as a magnet attracts people what we see in this current border crisis is that sort of knowledge of US policy creates and sentence that does affect the flow of people trying to come into America and arriving at our border. The reason we're getting so many families is partly because it has been communicated that our our federal law under, you know, the Flores ruling under sort of the way that that court rulings and settlements have said it if you show up with a family you're going to they're not going to be able to just turn you back there. Then there's a decent chance. You might be let free in the country. So the very nature of this crisis is because it has gotten out there that you can comment. So there's just so many more families arriving then we
00:39:05Never had before so even if you had you know, the most immigrant loving big government Democrat in the white house right now. You would have a crisis at the southern border. And so conservative response would be to address the incentives and then you can combine it with the Democratic responses. Let you spend a ton more money to house these people and let's not be mean like Donald Trump but to even to talk about the whole picture is not something we've seen any Democrat do you had as far as I know an antenna actually left off the most of the biggest incentive which is birthright citizenship, which is if someone gets here and they have a kid which they happened profiling women at the border who done that and again that's one of those issues where it's framed as people who want to talk about that are racist and yet you look at the polling an overwhelming majority of Americans actually agree with some of our allies like Australia and the UK that you shouldn't have Birthright citizenship. So it makes it very complicated for Democrat to win a primary talk about these issues made fun of on Thursday night or do which was Marianne Williamson, where she at
00:40:05We made a very coherent Point here where she pointed out and it's not quite that is driving. This is a hundred years of American policy towards Latin America. And that is why the name that is part of the reason those nations are mired in poverty mired and Corruption and mired in violence and and we cannot cannot solve the issues at the border without addressing that and that is something that it is almost embarrassing that it was left to Marianne Williamson to make that point frog leg see is that the Trump Administration is tried its best to message to people in Central America not to come if you, it's going to be chaotic we might separate you from your family. You're not welcome etcetera etcetera numbers of people trying to cross the border did go down significantly. The first year Trump was in office. I think the primary driver that is drawing people up here from Central America is the terrible situation in Central America. I think that you know that I don't think it's about Birthright citizenship.
00:41:05It's about that. You know that that it's a very dangerous place to be right now in El Salvador in the most effective thing we could be doing is trying to improve the situation in El Salvador and Honduras and Guatemala, which I think is why it's very unproductive. The Trump Administration has been cutting off Aid to those countries. We do need a constructive solution there. I don't I don't I think that people are going to come here unless the unless it it looks terrible for them to stay at home. I mean this is this is why the wave of Mexican illegal immigration ended it was the Mexico Prosper economically is obviously still a lot poorer than United States, but it's a much better place to live than it was 20 years ago. And that's why you stop having enormous numbers of people trying to immigrate illegally to the US from Mexico. I think that has to be ultimately the solution in Central America wheat, we have to leave it here in this segment. I do want to come back and talk a little bit about Marianne Williamson her role in the debate still with me are only know one of the Washington Post Tim Carney the Washington examiner and Kelly golf The Daily Beast, the listings left right and Center.
00:41:59Join the conversation on our Facebook page or tweet us an lrc. KCRW stream all episodes of Left Right and center and other great shows at kcrw.com last podcast.
00:42:17Back again with left, right and Center. I'm your host Josh. Barro on the right is Tim Carney, Terry editor of the Washington examiner on the left is helaine Olen columnist The Washington Post and our special guest is Kelly Gough colonists The Daily Beast. Supreme Court. I want to talk about spiritual Guru Marianne Williamson who I thought was delightful at Thursday's debased. There's a closing statement idea about Donald Trump. Donald Trump is not going to be beaten just buy inside of politics talk. He's not going to be beaten just by somebody who has plans. He's going to be bitten by somebody who has an idea what this man has reached into the psyche of the American people and his harness fear for political purposes. So mr. President, if you're listening, I want you to hear me, please you with harness fear for political purposes and Only Love Can cats that out. So I sir I have a feeling you know what you're doing. I'm going to harm this love for political purposes. I will meet you on that field and sir.
00:43:17The substance of this argument in this twice she talked about this pupu the idea of plans a reporter asked her after the debate, you know, don't you need policy plans if you got to be president, she said well, that's something the cat that people can come up with when I take many people on the stage would be great cabinet officials in my government that basically Hillary Clinton it like she had all these plans and nobody cared. Is she is she right that you know that foreign policy people is the wrong way to run a campaign to be Trump. I think it really comes down to who's doing it and how they're doing it but it's Elizabeth Warren doing it. It's part of a cohesive story Hillary Clinton's problem when she did policy was said it really never felt like it came to a cohesive whole it felt more like sort of small bore Solutions. Where is for somebody like Elizabeth Warren or even Bernie Sanders or Kamala Harris? It has been a part of their story and that has been really important. I mean, I think that's a with Marianne Williamson is she had no business being on that.
00:44:17Define a minute ago. She did actually make some valuable points, but she and I both had no business being on that stage that Elizabeth Warren court and Cory Booker and Julio Castro where on the other night and at least in place of to two of these right was insane and they should have been there and this is the fault of the DNC for organizing paper cuz I know everyone's having laughs at the expense of Marianne Williamson and allegedly embarrassment. I really don't like it when we fought so hard to get seats at the table or at the podium and then to have someone like that take up space and represent what female candidates allegedly can be it was really I cringed every time she open her mouth and I also found her voice annoying him for years and 4 years ago. We were asking why the heck Donald Trump was on stage. I was looking back at one of my old tweets. I said guys we don't have to treat Trump as a serious candidate. He's just a reality star.
00:45:17Find a build up his his hotel business. So I am out of the business of saying who does and doesn't belong on that stage and and I will know that in that message. She made their there. It's like a lot of Johnny Cash songs were there is a sort of echo that's bounce off a couple Services of Christianity that like, the only way to defeat hate is love is sort of a Cheesy thing on a high school inspirational poster But ultimately I every time she started to be nothing. I could change one or two words of that and basically it be actual real good homily at Catholic Church on a Sunday or talk very briefly about the Supreme Court which ended it storm this week and there were two important decisions that came down on the very last day. One of those was about gerrymandering the question before the court was are partisan gerrymandering unconstitutional at least if they are very egregious and then in a 5 before decision the court decided know that that's a political question that we can't be left to us to decide. How much is too much gerrymandering the Constitution leaves at the legislature.
00:46:17We're not going to touch these Maps. There was a very blood blistering to sent it after Elena Kagan in the four liberal justices on the court Central a part of our constitutional system for over 200 name for Elbridge. Gerry who was governor of Massachusetts over 200 years ago and was doing this was unconstitutional how people been doing it under the Constitution for so long with all the way at our democracy the issue with gerrymandering which as you point out has been with us almost our entire history is that it was never really possible to gerrymander the way we gerrymandering now until about twenty or thirty years ago. And that's thanks to a combination of computer technology and our surveillance state so that it used to be that you sort of had to guess at what you were doing, which is somewhat effective but not fully stocked up. Now, you can pretty much a gerrymandered district 2 it incredibly specific level and the only thing that really changes it is actual movement of people which does happen to some extra.
00:47:17But certainly is not the way gerrymandering traditionally work and this is something that really needs to be discussed a lot more whenever we discuss gerrymandering gerrymandering today is not gerrymandering a 50 years ago. I agree. The gerrymandering is bad. I live in Maryland which has the worst gerrymandering the whole country my congressional district stretches from Chevy Chase on the border of DC up to basically Royal Pennsylvania. You got a congressional districts that are contiguous only if you own a sailboat and can sail from one part to another Mi talk about Island. I'm just talking about they drew it. They drew the lines to the Chesapeake Bay, but not everything that is bad is unconstitutional and the supreme court has it, you know, you still a racial gerrymandering is not permitted, but we don't want our judges especially federal judges who don't know what's going on in the state. It's ever we don't want our federal judges drawing congressional districts in that would be a lot more undemocratic than this. I think that every state starting with mine and Marilyn needs to come up with
00:48:17Some sort of Reform some states do have rules about compactness. Some states do have nonpartisan commission that do it. They're not perfect fix but every state needs to reform it may be in their own Constitution, but I'd rather have the mess we have now than have judges strong are lions in determining our representation.
00:48:44We reach that time once again for a family left, right and Center rants featuring pet peeves from across the political Spectrum Kelly. What's on your mind to the American Prospect? Joe Biden Bernie Sanders Kamala Harris Elizabeth Warren and people to judge have mentioned Union on social media at least a hundred times signaling. What's some Sia the shift back to Democrats prioritize in the importance of organized labor in American politics as well as an ending income inequality yet. Strangely almost no Democratic candidates have waited on the biggest labor dispute of the year The Writers Guild Union of which I'm a member recently fired our agents in math because of concerns regarding conflicts of interest since I met agencies take before packaging and producing content making them are bosses, especially since some of them have also started Studios and turn two of the biggest agencies UTA William Morris, which is run by Democratic power broker Rahm emanuel's brother sudar union now that the other Industries suit at Union for striking. I have a feeling it would have come up a million times.
00:49:39Democratic debate, but it didn't my guess is so many liberal candidates are reliant on donations from Hollywood agencies. They're afraid to stay true to their liberal values. I get that writers may not be as sympathetic as striking Auto Workers, but speaking from personal experience many writers are often one paycheck away from disaster if Democrats end up taking unions for granted this election like many believe Hillary Clinton in 2016. It's possible we will be looking at four more years of Donald Trump in all in with your aunt 30 horses died at California Santa Anita race track this past season a horrifying tall experts say a combination of cold rainy weather and a dirt track was partially to blame but there's one other thing that's not getting as much attention racing horse deaths are much more common in the United States than in Europe. And that's because Europeans are much more diligent about enforcing bands on performance-enhancing drugs in horse races. We can and should do better a horse race with horses shot up with drugs so they can better compete is both morally repugnant and most certainly not the sport of Kings abortion.
00:50:39Is about as divisive of an issue as there is in America, but unfortunately, I think it's taken a darker turn as some people are trying to cast the pro-life side as simply beyond the pale and John Irving the novelist play this card in a New York Times op-ed and what you said quote abortion opponents don't care what happens to an unwanted child and they've never cared about the mother. John Irving should meet my friend who spend their time volunteer whose full-time job. It is to try to serve these very women there people who work at Crisis Pregnancy Center. So they're hold a job is serving these women helping these children collect donations and trying to make sure that these mothers when they have the baby are taken care of and that these babies are taken care of. Yes, he's are pro-lifers who want to overturn Roe v Wade? Yes, they try to change the laws, but what they spend their passion on is serving the babies and serving the mother.
00:51:32For my rant New York City is celebrating World Pride this weekend. It's the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall riots, which picked off one of the most successful movements for social and political change in American history. It's good cause to celebrate and remember the huge changes in public opinion are possible through activism effort and struggle. That's all we have time for today. I want to thank Tim Carney helaine Olen and Kelly golf left, right and Center was produced by Sarah Faye and Rebecca Mooney our technical director of despotic. Kandi Burruss guns and pollen count Washington our production assistants time Simon composer theme music. I'm Josh barro. Thanks for joining us into next week for more left, right and Center.
00:52:10Download And subscribe at kcrw.com lrc, the KCRW app or wherever you find podcast left, right and Center is produced and distributed by KCRW.

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