Full Transcript for Cracking the Code: Transforming Challenges into Leadership Superpowers w/ Jonathan Domsky

examples of what you're doing and how that worked for you. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:41.040 And it really goes back to something that I talk a lot about with people, with my clients, about staying curious, right? 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:43.120 Everyone has best intentions. 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:51.839 And so just because somebody says something that puts you off, if you can stay curious and say, I wonder what they meant by that, rather than they meant this, right? 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:56.720 And making a statement, turn it into a question and seeking it can be so powerful. 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:08.800 Well, and that's you know, if you tell your employee, Stacey, I need you to come to my office and discuss something with you, they're almost never gonna think, I bet he's gonna tell me what a great job I'm doing. 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:10.000 Like this is exciting. 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.879 And maybe that is what's gonna happen, but everybody assumes the worst. 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:14.720 Oh my God, I'm in trouble, I'm gonna be fired. 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:29.519 So if we could simply learn, and this is something I learned after I wrote that SOP, but if we could simply learn to frame our intentions, to say, hey, Stacey, I need to talk to you about uh that uh customer issue. 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:30.959 Could you come to my office? 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:32.879 Then there's no fear, there's no anxiety. 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:41.439 If we just tell people what we mean, if we could take responsibility for how other people receive us, then there's no reason for any of these misunderstandings. 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:42.879 Yeah, that's so powerful. 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:45.759 Take responsibility for how others perceive us. 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:47.839 Like just think about that for a minute. 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:50.000 Like it's very, very important to be able to say that. 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.480 Like we say, own what you have, own what you're doing, take responsibility. 00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:00.160 But how other people perceive you, I think is really powerful to be able to think of it that way. 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.279 Well, you know, I told you about that working with Donovan SOP. 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:09.920 The inspiration for it is I was working with the coach at the time, and he suggested that I do a 360 review. 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:11.040 I'd never done that before. 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:17.759 Just all the people around me, the people I reported to, my peers, um, just what it's like to work with me. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:22.720 And I got the report and I said, surely this is not correct. 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:30.079 Because all sorts of people had all sorts of ideas about me that were just so wrong about from what I felt. 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.040 My intentions were from how I felt, I showed up. 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:34.959 And my coach, I'll never forget it. 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.240 He's like, Can you take responsibility for how other people receive you? 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.879 And I said, I don't know, that sounds really hard. 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:46.800 And he's like, Yeah, it is, but can you take responsibility for other people uh how other people receive you? 00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:48.639 And it took about six months. 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:51.439 Well, that's when I learned how to frame my intentions. 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:57.199 That's how I learned how to add to the agenda things that didn't come naturally to me. 00:06:57.360 --> 00:06:58.480 So like praise. 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:02.560 I was I was very stingy with praise, not because I didn't want to, it just didn't occur to me. 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:04.560 Again, like I just felt like a waste of time. 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:15.839 But when I realized that, oh, I was really annoying and demotivating the people I was relying on, who I loved, who I cared about, I said, oh, okay, well, I just need to be more systematic on how I praise. 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:21.199 So we began every meeting with share your success stories. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:26.319 And then that was just a natural um opportunity for me to praise people. 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:28.800 I had quarterly reviews with every staff member. 00:07:28.959 --> 00:07:30.720 We topped out at 28 employees. 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:35.759 They last like two hours because that's my thing, just how to help people accomplish their goals, you know, inside and outside of work. 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:47.680 And the last item on the agenda was for me to say, from my perspective, everything that I valued about them, why their role was important, and why I was so happy that they were in that role. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:52.240 We had every other week, we'd have an all-company catered lunch. 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.680 And I came up with something called uh, we were in the children's accessories business. 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:59.279 If you've ever seen umbrellas and rain boots that look like frogs and ladybugs, that was us. 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:01.040 You know, the company is adorable. 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:11.759 And I came up with our frog award, a friendly recognition of gratitude that anybody could write um a little note and put it in a box anytime they saw someone exemplifying our core values. 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.759 Managers had to write two each week. 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.000 Um, you know, any staff member could write one. 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:21.120 And at our company meetings, I'd take them out of the box and I'd read them in front of the entire staff. 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:27.360 And it was just, it was a systematic on the agenda way, just Jonathan, I don't care if it matters to you or not. 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:29.439 You need to praise people for good work. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:34.000 Uh and I'm pretty good at following an agenda, so it was easy to do. 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:40.080 Yeah, you made it

part of your process, which is, you know, that's a great way to do it when it's not natural to you, for sure. 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:40.960 For sure. 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:41.759 Yeah. 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:47.840 So, you know, as we're talking here, and I appreciate you bringing up the story and how you've overcome it. 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:55.679 And I'm hoping our listeners are resonating with this with either people they work with or maybe they've experienced the self, themselves rather. 00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:06.720 Um, I'd love to talk about, um, which is really the main topic of today, is neurodivergent leadership and working with people that are neurodivergent. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:13.039 And you are neurodivergent and you are very successful in what you do every day. 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:17.279 Um, and I'm sure people have already recognized that just in the few minutes we've been speaking together. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:34.480 And so I'd love for you, first of all, like I know uh statistically, I know you have some great statistics that you could probably go over in just a few minutes here, but there are more people that are neurodivergent that don't even realize it, haven't have been diagnosed per se of it and recognize it. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:44.399 And so I'd love for you to first give me your definition of what neurodivergent is, and then maybe some statistics around it that you shared with me previously. 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:44.879 Yeah. 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:49.440 Well, first let's just start with some labels to help people just, you know, understand what we're talking about. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:54.000 So neurodivergence is basically just your mind doesn't work on default settings. 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:59.039 You've known from an early age that you think differently than most people in the room. 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.639 Maybe you process information differently than other people. 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:09.519 And the most common kinds of neurodivergence are ADHD, dyslexia, autism. 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:24.240 And when most people think about these, and in fact, it's in the you know, the formal definition, it's um, you know, ADHD is uh, you know, attention, hyperactivity, whatever, disorder. 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.159 Autism is a autism spectrum disorder. 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:34.320 I think dyslexia is just dyslexia, but when most people think about dyslexia, they think like, oh, there's something wrong with you, you can't read right. 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:42.240 It's just the wrong way to think about neurodiversion because all of these traits, right? 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:47.039 And they're all just collections of traits, the traits themselves are neutral. 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.320 It's all about the context that we have them in. 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:54.159 And let's take uh uh dyslexia as an example. 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.000 Um everybody knows that it's just it's pretty terrible. 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:04.480 If you're dyslexic and you're in the third grade and the teacher says, okay, we're all gonna take turns reading aloud now. 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:06.000 It's just a terrible thing to do. 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.679 It's embarrassing, it makes the kids feel stupid, they're just not good at it. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:22.960 But the brain structure that makes someone dyslexic, like what it actually is, is that I don't know if you're dyslexic or not, but assuming that you and I are both not dyslexic, when we do something a thousand times, it becomes automatic. 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:24.159 We just stop thinking about it. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:30.399 So if I want to read the word encyclopedia, I just see there's a long word that starts with ENN and ends with an INA, it's probably encyclopedia. 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.919 I don't even think about it, it's automatic. 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.399 For someone who's dyslexic, it never becomes automatic. 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:35.840 There's like a quarter second delay. 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:37.679 And that makes it really hard to read. 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:49.360 But that same quarter second delay, that same trait, you know, when I'm walking from my home to the coffee shop, I miss almost everything because I've walked that way a thousand times. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.519 Someone who's dyslexic, they notice it. 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:53.200 It doesn't become automatic. 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:58.399 And because they notice everything around them, they're able to make connections that other people miss. 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.960 They're able to look at a data point and project into the future, project into the past. 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.080 They're able to manipulate things in 3D, the way that most people can't. 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:09.440 And it's the same brain structure that makes it difficult to read. 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:16.080 And the same thing's true for ADHD, for autism, OCD, bipolar, all the all these things, all these different flavors of neurodiversion. 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:19.200 In the wrong context, it's an affliction. 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.919 But when properly channeled and harnessed, it's a gift. 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:28.559 And for anyone who's listening who works for an entrepreneurial company, 70% of entrepreneurs are neurodiverse. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.559 Three to five, I'm sorry, five to eight percent of the population has ADHD. 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:35.440 50% of entrepreneurs have ADHD. 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:40.879 Same percentages, five to eight percent of uh 5 to 8% of the population is dyslexic. 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:46.080 Between a third and half of entrepreneurs are dyslexic, a third of millionaires are dyslexic. 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:51.360 Again, the same structure that makes it hard to read is a really useful business skill, making connections about stuff. 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.519 There's no uh data

somehow on autism, but I'm 100% sure it's the same. 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:56.879 I'm autistic myself. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:06.159 Because when you think differently than other people, one, you don't want to work for someone, you don't want to work for someone else, but two, you you see opportunities that other people miss. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:17.840 So I'm sorry, and the last thing that I would say about neurodiversion is the vast majority of neurodiverse people just don't know that they're neurodiverse, they were missed as children. 00:13:17.919 --> 00:13:25.600 They and especially for some of these uh um definitions, the exp the the definitions expanded, you know, in the 90s and 2000s. 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:35.679 So if you're a person of a certain age uh and you somehow did get a neuropsychovale, you know, they would have never told you that you had ADHD or you were dyslexic or whatever, because um, you know, the definition changed. 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:37.759 So most people don't know. 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:44.159 Most people who do know uh kind of figured it out as adults, and there's just no resources available. 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:50.720 And for someone like me, you know, of course I've been autistic my entire life, I only had language for this uh much more recently. 00:13:50.879 --> 00:14:08.639 But when I wrote that SOP, when I was uh you know creating agendas that put in, you know, make sure you praise people, um it was um it was just my way of solving for these uh challenges uh on my own. 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:22.720 And even if you can't or don't want to uh turn into a gift with just a little bit of intentional design, we could work around these traits to gracefully sidestep them or to transcend them. 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.799 And I have a million stories on and how I do that in my own life and how I've helped clients do it. 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:29.200 Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:31.120 I think that's so beautiful. 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:40.320 And you know, we talk about all the time about diversity and how important it is to have a diverse team in order for a team to be successful or the organization to be successful. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:45.919 And this is one aspect of that diversity that you can bring to your team and be part of it. 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:50.960 And, you know, one of my leadership principles is everyone can be successful in the right role. 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:54.720 And if you look to the individual and say, what are your gifts? 00:14:54.960 --> 00:15:00.639 And can we channel that in this organization, in this role, on this team? 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:13.279 Um, one, that makes you an extremely effective leader, but two, like think about the success of that person that maybe didn't know, but they've been struggling in life because they haven't been able to find their own way of channeling their strength. 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.159 So the power that a leader has um, you know, cannot be forgotten. 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.720 Well, here's just a very simple example. 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:36.399 Same trait, different application, the very same um trait that made it so that I didn't care about how hard someone worked to get to where we are right now. 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:46.000 Is you know, I just I didn't care how I got to right now, I just cared what we were at right now and where we wanted to go and what was missing and what are the steps that we need to bridge that gap. 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:52.080 And in managing and motivating people, it was very um, it was very maladapted. 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:58.960 But, you know, I see patterns and I see the signal, I totally ignore the noise. 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:10.000 And when there's all this drama, when something goes wrong, you know, when there's just when there's way too much work to do, then there's time for, when there's mistakes that we need to fix and stuff like that. 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:14.320 And someone comes into a meeting or into the office and their hair's on fire. 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:19.440 Like my warehouse manager used to, she used to say ice in my veins, because like just I was unflappable. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:21.279 Just I didn't care how we got here. 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:22.960 I didn't care whose fault it was. 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:30.399 I didn't care like what were the mistakes that led to or or the good fortune, you know, that led to you know having all this uh stuff that we need to do. 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:35.840 I just said, okay, let's look at what we have and where we want to go and how do we get there. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.879 And then I'd solve it. 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:38.240 It's the very same trait. 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:43.919 It's just one is adaptive and incredibly useful, and the other kind of runs people the wrong way. 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:53.440 But again, with just a little bit of design for environments or strategies or relationships, we could sidestep these issues, we could transcend them or harness them into a gift. 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:54.240 Yeah. 00:16:54.480 --> 00:17:03.759 And I know a lot of people that are probably in different environments that they would love to work with someone that is unflappable, that can like just focus on the future, right? 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.480 Like that's beautiful to be able to find that. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:08.000 So it could be really good. 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:17.119 Now, I'd like to talk about another piece of neurodivergent with people that have sensory sensitivity and how that can be a gift too. 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.440 So I can you talk a little bit about that? 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:20.319 Sure. 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:24.319 So a lot of neurodiverse people, and I'm one of them, have sensory issues. 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:31.200 So I'm sensitive to light, I'm sensitive to sound, I'm sensitive to texture, um, I'm

sensitive to scent. 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:43.039 And yeah, like if I'm walking into a building and someone has recently smoked, or if they have a very strong perfume, like it is, it's very um uh challenging for me when there's loud noises of a certain type, like it literally hurts my ears. 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:49.279 And you could look at that and you could say, Well, I really don't see the gift in that. 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.920 That just sounds like a pain in the butt. 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:59.440 And uh, I mean, yeah, like I can't go to an amusement park because it just I get a headache and it it makes it puts me on edge and it drives me crazy. 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:01.599 Like, that's just not an environment that I could go into. 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:03.599 So, how could that be a gift? 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:16.559 Well, I have met architects, interior designers, who have sensory sensitivities and they design workspaces, they design buildings that aren't just good for someone like me. 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:20.000 I mean, nobody likes buzzing fluorescent lights. 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:21.680 Like nobody says, like, you know what I want? 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:27.440 I want a cubicle with like light that is buzzing and that's just like a weird hue. 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:29.119 Like, no, nobody likes that. 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.839 But if you don't notice it, then it's just a low-level stress. 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:44.240 But if that's something that really matters to you, then you're gonna learn how to design a space that um lets everybody thrive, that makes people feel good. 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:51.440 Like we've all walked into homes that are just beautiful or offices that are just beautifully designed, and you just feel light, you feel happy, you feel productive. 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:53.920 And that's the benefit of having these sensitivities. 00:18:54.079 --> 00:19:00.240 So often, these things that are our biggest challenges, we become expert in them. 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:09.279 I um so my entire life, I've had a small group of close friends, and it took me a long time to make new friendships. 00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:12.160 I I've been in a forum group for 27 years. 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:14.480 These guys are my best friends, we know everything about each other. 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.160 I was in that group 10 years before I considered any of them to be real friends. 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:34.400 But about five years ago, I just finally learned, and I'm 53 years old, so this took a while, but about five years ago, I finally learned just how to effortlessly build relationships and make friendships, not by being magnetically charismatic and meeting strangers in bars. 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:38.319 Like that's not something I'm capable of doing, but by being myself. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:46.480 And if I see someone in a group who I'm interested in, I could just say, Hey Stacy, like I'd really like to get to know you better. 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:50.799 Do you mind if we go into the hallway where it's a little quieter and we could have a one-on-one conversation? 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:58.240 Or I'll, you know, I'll meet someone, I'll hear a speaker and I'll follow up with them and I'll just say, like, what you said really resonated with me. 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:00.240 I'd love to share my feedback. 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:01.920 Can we schedule a Zoom? 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:07.920 And again, we get to have the only kind of conversation I know how to have: one-on-one, deep, talking about something that matters. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.400 Group stress me on unless they're highly structured. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:12.960 And the number of my friendships has just exploded. 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:17.759 And the quality of my friendships has exploded because I know what I need to do. 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:20.000 I've transcended that limitation. 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:26.720 And now I have more deep, close friendships than the vast majority of my extroverted friends. 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:34.960 And it's just because I learned how to embrace how I do relationships and not trying to do it the way that someone else told me you're supposed to do it. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.119 Yeah, that's beautiful. 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:37.759 Beautiful. 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:38.319 I love that. 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:45.039 It is, it's all about finding what your strengths are and channeling them through times that can be challenging. 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.599 Um, and learning how to leverage that for sure. 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:48.000 Yeah. 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.480 And again, just back to the sensory sensitivities. 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:58.720 You know, if you don't want to become an architect or an interior designer, it'll probably never be a gift, but it's easily sidestepped. 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.559 You know, like my son's a musician, I go to his conference all the time. 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:08.240 I bring, I bring earplugs because otherwise it's just a little overwhelming for me. 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.599 Um, you know, I just, you know, the sort of situations that I avoid. 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.839 It's it's easy to gracefully sidestep this stuff if you uh if you're intentional about it. 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.519 What do you believe is one uncomfortable truth that leaders need to hear right now? 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:23.519 Yeah, we already talked about it, Stacey. 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:27.359 It's that you are responsible for how other people receive you. 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:38.079 And yes, there's some times that you'll never be able to do it because you remind them of their mom, or like, you know, like there's no way that you'll ever be able to get through that deep, you know, subconscious programming. 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.000 But for the vast majority of things. 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:45.119 No, it was great that in

2009 I was able to write that SOP on how to get the most out of me. 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.400 But, you know, these days I don't need an SOP on how to work with me. 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:55.920 Because if someone does come to me and they want to change the plan, I know that they're I know what they're doing and I could have a conversation about that. 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.759 But um, just learning how to frame your intentions, understanding. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.319 What is it that you do, and all of us have it? 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.359 You don't have to be neurodiverts to have some people who you know you run the wrong way. 00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:16.960 Just to know what those things are and then adapt to it to communicate better, to invite a conversation to give other people what they need. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:18.720 What are their challenges? 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:20.400 What are their objectives? 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:25.359 Um and we when we could do that, we just become so much better leaders. 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:27.440 Yeah, so powerful. 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.880 So powerful. 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:41.759 You know, you talk about um people that uh when you're neurodivergent, you often have a hard time really reading social cues, which put things in awkward positions. 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:52.880 And you you talked a little bit about this with your story in the beginning, but I do want to say to the audience, like a lot of times when we think of uh people that have a hard time reading social cues, we think of autism. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:00.000 But I have people very close to me that are dyslexic and ADHD, and they have the same difficulty. 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:07.279 And what I'd love to hear is like, what are ways to work through that if you're one of those people that you've been told? 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:12.559 Um, and then also how can you help people that maybe are having difficulty? 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.519 So on both sides. 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:20.160 So it is possible to improve, but it's a lot of work, and it's just really hard. 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:22.160 So I wouldn't start there. 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:24.799 Um, it's all about disclosure. 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:30.559 And you don't have to, when I say disclosure, I don't mean like, hi Stacy, it's nice to meet you. 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.640 I'm autistic and sometimes I miss social cues. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:33.279 That's a little weird. 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.839 I mean, I mean you can if you want, but there's there's there's there's more graceful ways to do this. 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:48.000 You know, I have uh I have a client who is uh he's a fellow business coach and he's really good at what he does, especially for brainstorming, especially for um strategy. 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:50.160 He's not great at running meetings. 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:57.519 And early this year, he was hired to lead a two-day offsite, a strategic uh planning uh session. 00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:59.920 And after the first day, he was fired. 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:01.599 That's extremely rare. 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:03.599 It was really he was really embarrassed. 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:05.359 And it's just it was really upset. 00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.279 And he asked the the person who hired him, the entrepreneur who hired him, like, what happened? 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.279 Because he thought he had a great first day. 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.039 Like he was on fire. 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:21.039 And she said, like, the entire first day, I was signaling to you that I wanted to go in a different direction, and you totally ignored me. 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:22.240 We're just not a good fit. 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.519 Now, of course, he wasn't ignoring her, he just didn't he totally missed it. 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:27.519 He didn't see the he didn't see the cues. 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.440 And again, we were talking a couple weeks later. 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.400 He was really upset, and like, oh, this is such an easy fix. 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:37.119 And it doesn't require you becoming an expert in body language and communication and stuff like that. 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:42.160 Start by just saying, Stacey, I am so excited about this two-day offsite. 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:47.039 I just want to let you know, when I'm in the zone, like all I focus on is on the agenda. 00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:49.359 I sometimes miss things that are going on around me. 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:50.640 Here's a bell. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:57.279 If I'm ever dis if you ever feel like I'm ignoring you, please like just ring the bell and I'll stop and we'll go over direction you want. 00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:59.200 But you'll see it's in the agenda every hour. 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.559 I'm gonna stop and I'm just gonna check in to see how we're doing and if this is what's serving you. 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:05.680 It's all I have to do. 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:06.720 All the agenda. 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:09.920 He doesn't have to learn something that's really hard for them to learn. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:13.440 I mean, can a deck can a dyslexic person learn how to read fluently? 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.480 Most can. 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:16.480 It takes a lot of effort. 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:24.960 You know, can someone who just, you know, is ADHD and you know is just so much energy and they just keep talking and talking and talking? 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:26.160 Can they read it in? 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:28.720 Like they can, but it's hard. 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:35.279 And um something that most people don't know about all these flavors of neurodiversion, there's a huge amount of overlap. 00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:40.799 If you have one, there's a really good chance that there's a 40% chance that you one of the others as well. 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:48.480 And uh some people are

fascinating cocktails of neurodiversion, uh, all sorts of things that they have to figure out. 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:55.759 But um yeah, just uh find a way to gracefully disclose and then build the agenda to support you. 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:57.519 Yeah, build a structure around it. 00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:58.000 I love that. 00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.599 Now, what if you're on the other side of it? 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:11.279 What if you're a leader or you're a peer and there's someone that doesn't recognize that they have these social cue issues and they're not disclaiming it themselves? 00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:13.839 What are ways that they can approach that with them? 00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:18.319 So the first thing is to be mindful of inconsistencies. 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.680 That's the like that's the key that there's something else going on here. 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:29.759 Like there's someone who's obviously a nice person, they obviously care about people, but they're rude and they just miss things. 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:31.200 They're like, why did they do that? 00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:32.640 Always ask why. 00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:37.839 Like for all these behaviors, like why is this person who's obviously so smart acting so stupidly? 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:40.160 That's uh there's always a why. 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:52.559 And the answer to the the answer to why is almost never that like they're a bad person who's out to get me, they're sabotaging the company, they hate me, they're they've ill intent, or they're crazy. 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.680 Like that, I mean that happens, but like that that's that's it's pretty rare. 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:57.519 Why is this person acting like this? 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:14.400 When there's someone who in certain areas, in certain environments, just there's obviously a lot of good stuff going on there, and in others there's not, uh, there's a pretty good chance that uh there's a reason for it, and how can we design around it? 00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:20.480 And just an example for myself, you know, and like these are things that I've transcended over decades. 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.039 You know, my my my special interest is personal growth. 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.079 I'm a personal growth athlete, I'm always looking for how to stretch myself. 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:36.640 But if we were having this conversation, and you would have never chosen me for an interview subject 30 years ago, but if we were having this conversation 30 years ago, I wouldn't have wanted to share anything with you. 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:40.799 Like, I mean, I guess if your house was on fire, I would tell you. 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:46.720 But like if I if you were saying something and I had an interesting idea, I wouldn't share it with you. 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:49.200 Like I needed to be invited, I needed to feel safe. 00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:53.279 And can you talk about all these traits? 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.480 The traits themselves we discussed, they're they're neutral. 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:05.519 But for almost all of them, school is a challenging environment for neurodiverse people. 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:10.559 From a very early age, like we're told that you're doing it wrong. 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:13.839 Like, why aren't you why can't you just sit still? 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:15.440 Why can't you read? 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:17.599 Why aren't you playing with the other kids? 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:18.720 Like, hey, whatever it is. 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.759 We're taught from a very early age there's something deeply wrong with us. 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:28.400 And it's not the primary traits that get most people in trouble, it's the secondary traits. 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:34.640 It's how you respond to from an early age someone saying, Stacey, stop it. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:35.599 You're wrong. 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:36.799 Stop doing that. 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:52.799 And many people, uh I don't personally experience this, but many neuro neurodiverse people, they experience social anxiety, a lack of trust in other people, even in their own bodies, because they're used to doing something and it doesn't get the response that they're expecting from a very early age. 00:28:53.119 --> 00:29:10.160 A lot of people also have something called uh rejection sensitivity uh dysphoria, which means that you know you say to me, um, well, before this uh before this uh interview, you say, Jonathan, we're not gonna do an intro live on air. 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:11.680 You're gonna record it later. 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:21.920 And I I didn't, but I but someone who has this rejection sensitivity might think like, oh, wait, she doesn't want to introduce me. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:27.119 She was there must she probably just doesn't want to do it in front of me because I'm just not that interesting or impressive. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:29.119 I'm just gonna I'm just gonna climb up. 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:53.680 So if you're managing someone who uh is used to misfiring a lot, uh it's so powerful just to help them feel seen to make sure that they understand that they'll wait for them to compose their thoughts and say what they need to say, that uh to actually invite them to say, Hey Stacy, I want to hear what you have to say. 00:29:54.559 --> 00:30:06.880 And in a group dynamic where all the extroverts and maybe people with a little bit more authority feel very comfortable speaking at length and speaking first, maybe you intentionally call on those people last. 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:12.319 And if they want to say something, you say, I want to hear from you, Stacy, but I want to hear from Jill first. 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:14.960 And give that space for them to share. 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:15.839 And they will. 00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:26.799 Um, but you need to build that trust and overcome uh what for many people is a lifetime of feeling that

uh, you know, whatever they say, it's gonna be wrong. 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:28.720 Very powerful. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:29.759 Very powerful. 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:39.759 It is how we show up, it is the psychological safety, it's building the trust, you know, it's being open-minded and curious to how can we help this person succeed. 00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.880 All really, really good points and understanding that we are complex human beings. 00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.279 And uh, whether we are neurodivergent or not, there's a lot going on in there. 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.839 And how do we channel the strengths out of everybody? 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:55.759 Because everyone has something beautiful to bring to this world for sure. 00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:57.200 Love that. 00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:57.839 All right. 00:30:57.920 --> 00:30:58.960 Well, there's that sound. 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:00.640 It's time for our questions. 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:02.319 Are you ready for our questions? 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:03.279 Bring it. 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:04.480 All right. 00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.720 Do you naturally wake up early or do you stay up late? 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:11.119 Uh, I'm definitely an early person. 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:12.240 Awesome. 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:12.799 Awesome. 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:16.240 Do you wake up without an alarm or do you wake up never with an alarm? 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:17.519 Never with an alarm. 00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:20.640 Unless I'm catching a plane early, which is very rare. 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:21.680 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:22.559 Love that. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:23.119 Okay. 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:29.119 Would you rather spend a night at a concert or laughing at a comedy show? 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.000 Um really concert. 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:33.119 Concert? 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:33.519 Okay. 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:34.559 What type of concert? 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:37.839 What's your what type of music do you gravitate toward? 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:43.359 I'm pretty eclectic, but uh I'm drawn to classical and jazz. 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:44.240 Awesome. 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:44.720 Awesome. 00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:50.480 Yeah, there's nothing, nothing better than listening to a nice jazz festival or something like that. 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:51.599 I totally agree. 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:52.480 Love that. 00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:04.480 Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for bringing, I think, a beautiful topic that we need to talk about more as leaders and more just as a society and understanding it and seeking to understand. 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.599 And so if people wanted to, you said you've even just put words to this in the last few years. 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:15.839 Like, where's a place that people could go to to understand more, learn more and all that if they wanted to? 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:25.440 Uh well, to learn about me, uh, go to my website, uh untangled-coaching.com or connect with me on LinkedIn to search for Jonathan Domsky. 00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:26.559 I'm the only one. 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:33.519 Uh, if you have questions about this stuff, though, uh, and you think like, hmm, I wonder if I have ADHD. 00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:38.000 I wonder if I have I seem like I might have some autistic tendencies or dyslexia. 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:39.599 Uh, there's so many books out there. 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:45.519 Most of them aren't very good, but I will recommend uh one good one for each of these flavors. 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:50.880 Um The Dyslexic Advantage by ID, E-I-D-E. 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.880 Required reading for anyone who's dyslexic or loves someone who is. 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.319 ADHD 2.0 by Ed Hallowell. 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:01.440 Also required reading, especially the introduction and first chapter. 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.359 It's a very short, very easy to read book. 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:07.279 Uh, for anyone who either has or loves someone with or works with someone with ADHD. 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:09.279 Uh for autism is a little bit harder. 00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.799 There aren't a lot of great books. 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:17.920 Uh, but especially for any women out there, uh Divergent Mind uh by Nuremberg is uh one of the good ones. 00:33:18.559 --> 00:33:19.119 Wonderful. 00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:21.039 Well, thank you so much for sharing. 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:30.640 Thank you for being open about your world and your neurodivergent and how you work through things and just sharing with others because that's what we need more of. 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.880 So really appreciate your time today. 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:47.519 If you enjoyed the show, please go to LeadershipMoments Podcast.com to subscribe to the podcast or on your favorite player, as well as follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn. 00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:52.559 You can also send us a message on what you like and don't like, or what guests you want us to have on the show. 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:57.359 So until next time, this is Stacy Caster, and what does it challenge you won't change you. 00:33:57.519 --> 00:33:59.119 And I'm Tracy Ann Palmer. 00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.799 Be the change you wish to see in the world.