I’m hoping you haven’t caught your breath yet from the first part of the interview where you learned of Dr. Palmer’s first exposure to the Atkins diet and how that changed his life and his father’s life. Now in part II, he delves deeper into the connection between Mental Disorders (Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Depression, Dementia, as examples) and metabolic disorders (diabetes, obesity, Cardio-vascular disorders, as examples). Think of epilepsy as an example of both and knowing the some of the medications used for epilepsy can also be used for these mental disorders...totally fascinating.

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00:00:00This is dr. Carl gold Camp. If you're interested in learning about the ketogenic diet, like I was to save my own life and this is probably the podcast for you years ago. I knew nothing about it 6 years ago. I save my life three years ago. I started researching a talking with some of the authorities in the field and attending medical conferences about this doctor said why and how keto so dramatically change my lights to Dee's lives. The person is podcast is to share. Our journey of Discovery is with you and understanding how keto is so effective improving so many different conditions for obesity diabetes infertility Ms. Alzheimer's heart disease name of you.
00:00:42so take a step away from all the hype you've probably heard and roll up your sleeves with me and join me weekly to explore this living miracle that anyone can access we'll talk science will talk to explore its history and evolution today, which is that this year winter the ketogenic way of eating has changed Untold number of lives unlike anything before
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00:01:19Hi, this is Doctor Gold Camp. I just wanted to provide a little rejoinder from part 1 and part 2 and it looks like I might and Me part 3 for our interview with dr. Christopher Palmer and some of the setting family Revelations that he talked about his father. And how is he is father went from bedridden to up and exercising and given the nature of their situation specifically that he went into a nursing home to have independent care. Anyways, now on a normal functioning person. He went back to having carbs which eventually made him and within a year of getting off keto it passed away. That was an incredibly tragic story. I wasn't expecting that a talking to
00:02:10Are Chris and took my breath away. It's it. It speaks out to a bigger point that comes out as we talked about him part one is there's a degree of personal responsibility of paying attention to how you are doing your lifestyle that were specifically talking about diet, of course, and I'll go back and eat and talk about how dr. Palmer himself.
00:02:36Got into you Atkins 20 years ago and his story about blood work until 1 so far and he was really trying to do the little fat and nonfat aspected how it didn't work out a tremendous testimony personally. So now we're moving away from that talked about volkov is the head of the forgot the department but basically has to do with addiction.
00:03:05And the work that she's working on right now of Quito to alcoholics alcoholics and taking an alcohol increases acetone acetone as one of the three ketones Anatomy Lee goes to the brain the brain uses at his energy and how that tends to tip the fuel consumption of brain of neurons in the brain towards acetone.
00:03:32And consequently the efficiency of using glucose becomes less and less efficient another word since the resistance starts to increase until there's a predisposition and Toradol and therefore with alcoholics who have higher rates of dementia, and so it so far.
00:03:50So that was fascinating as well. So part 2 is going to go into things that are now a little more clinical but it's going to take your breath away as well. So imma give you a little background on the way back when and that is the Genesis that is the reason that the ketogenic diet came into being with the fasting protocols. And that's all there was before the ketogenic diet thing after a three-week 100% fast other than just one sim epilepsy actually disappeared completely. Everybody had reduce seizures while they were gone, beginning of the episode.
00:04:30Quilt that whole idea that you can treat something metabolically retreating something that something is changeable. Something has to do the glucose metabolism. So the fact that you're not stamped with you're always going to have this that there's this other variable that somehow your metabolism or the epileptic metabolism is something that can be modified in a winter wonderland has epilepsy enter the ketogenic diet. So I'm saying that I'm trying to thread the same needle in terms of perspective because dr. Palmer's can be talking about mental disorders such as schizophrenia bipolar and a few others.
00:05:12The really have a high correlation with diabetes obesity and cardiovascular disease. Remember that those three diabetes obesity diabetes cardiovascular disease and a lot of others come from
00:05:28a poor ability to handle blood sugar is high insulin. So and so forth but it has to do it starts with elevated blood glucose, whether it's dietary or something else and that's the beginning of it. That's the Genesis of household dysfunction. Well in that he made certain correlations, he will make sure that you will hear that there is a higher incidence of those who are schizophrenic in terms of insulin resistance and or diabetic excetera excetera and the incidence of
00:06:04Severe depression that affects not a fact that correlation with blood sugar problems. So it's very fascinating. So this the diabetes obesity the vascular that's the metabolic cart when somebody is stamped with a mental disorder such as schizophrenia and bipolar there's a degree of Shame and having that diagnosis because I have some sort of weirdness about me some sort of deformity and asses I'm paraphrasing he didn't say that
00:06:36But that's the feeling of it. Well, actually it may be right up there with epilepsy and the mental disorder equivalent of epilepsy because often some of these medical some of these disorders are treated with epileptic medications. Is that interesting so schizophrenic to do is say medications. Are you a treat for epilepsy?
00:07:03Let me know that epilepsy is helped. A lot of people are helped with the ketogenic diet and its variations for epilepsy. Now the doors being open to that happen quiz.
00:07:17these mental disorders
00:07:19the correlations of that and this is where his passion lies right now. He's bringing the ketogenic diet to the mental disorders and boys that take your breath away. It's all very very exciting. I hope you look forward to it as much as I do and I have to say this and I hope you have the same perspective don't you feel like when dr. Palmer is talking to you? He's your buddy your he's just your sitting down on a park bench and you're having a fascinating conversation Meneses certainly how I received this and it certainly how I participated in this, but it was told you so with that enjoy this as much as I did and as much as I do and listen to take care, bye-bye.
00:08:05Yeah, I know. I agree. I think that whole interface between muscle blood sugar that's her hair looked at or without even getting into the detox aspect is a big big deal and talk about diet. Maybe not that easy but it's harder to talk about exercise to a non exercising group if people are grew up, you know being High School athletics on say athlete that it's easy to bring him back to that state if they were never exercised already gone. So what do you think about the gym do you think about exceeding that aspect it's almost say it's it's almost harder than bringing in a diet. I'm sure you probably know it sounds like it's part of Who You Are by the way, it's so it's interesting that you bring that up because so when I was a kid, you know, I grew up in the 70s and 80s and when I was a kid, I was on a very high carb diet, you know Pop-Tarts.
00:09:05Breakfast cereal for breakfast add some sugar to that cereal why not a taste better sandwiches for dinner mac and cheese whatever and I never exercised was I was like the biggest karate geek nerd II was so uncoordinated couldn't couldn't couldn't could not do one pullup could not do One Pilots. There's a thing called the Presidential Fitness Test that we had to do and that was voice humiliation like the humiliation day for me. So I found exercise started getting into exercise probably about when I was in college, one of the one of the points that I like to make about the ketogenic diet and exercise is that, you know, a lot of times when I talk to people who say I hate exercise, I'm not doing it.
00:09:59When I talk to them I can usually get into their mind-set like yeah. Yeah, I get it. You're burned out your fried you eat barely have energy to do the things you have to do who wants to add something more who wants to just adding anything to your schedule is going to be painful enough but adding something where you actually have to exert yourself physically, you're exhausted already. You're not sleeping. Well, you don't have energy. Yeah, I get it and
00:10:28The thing is is that when people do a low carb or a ketogenic diet.
00:10:33They get more energy they get more motivation. And so a lot of times I think people are kind of sub clinically depressed or or lethargic or whatever when they're eating a crappy diet and I think for a lot of them, I think for a lot of them the real key is to eat a low-carb ketogenic diet so that their energy levels come up and then they can start exercising actually had several patients who told me that who one woman in particular very smart woman chronically depressed kind of laughed at me for a long. Of time over two years. I kept trying to get her to exercise and she wouldn't do it. We are trying all sorts of medications all sorts of different psychotherapies group therapies. All these things. She was getting consultation. She was in and out of Hospital.
00:11:33Not getting better. I kept trying to get her to exercise couldn't do it. I finally got her to do a ketogenic diet.
00:11:44And she came in and spontaneously says guess what I did. I joined the gym because I finally feel like I can do that. I have enough energy. I have enough motivation. I feel like I can do that. So it's important. It's important to kind of look at what's the chicken? And once the egg is Epi. Dr. Westman in this Clinic is very generous to offer that and talk about a lot of patience to go through and you see some people who have picked up on that, you know, just open to hold door and it naturally comes, you know, you know, you told that woman but it's interesting weird that energy people then want to go do something with it and exercise is usually the the manifestation of that which is pretty interesting to we know where you're where I think you're breaking new ground that you talked about your case of Michael. I think his name was that you shared with all of us down there and he had a couple of cases but
00:12:44I always need that you brought this term which is a dog use the light just like we have metabolic syndrome ECG Syndrome X and so on so forth by saying, hey schizophrenia and bipolar why not say they're at their their physical so they're not just mental as you were saying their physical but you know, why not call the metabolic or why not consider the possibility that their metabolic and so when you put that word there what I hear, I mean, I've heard that word for the last 30 years is that specially at some of the functional medicine conferences at its adjustable you can get in there. There's something you can do theirs metabolism there we can get in there and cortical corrected her in some way. How do you see that when you use that word metabolic metabolic condition and therefore that means what to you mean, what does that mean to you by placing it there?
00:13:36Yeah, I know. It's a really important question. You know, most people think of you they think of psychiatric disorders in a couple of different ways. I mean, I think there are there's some big kind of buckets it different people kind of fall into and the way they think about mental disorders. So which way is things like schizophrenia and bipolar disorders are those are genetic disorders and their chemical imbalances is a chemical imbalance in the person's brain and they need medication to correct that chemical imbalance. No ifs ands or buts exercise isn't going to do sit for those people talking even talk therapy isn't going to do shit for those people. They have a chemical imbalance and they need to take medication to correct that chemical imbalance. So that's one perspective. There's another perspective depending on what mental disorders were talking about. If we start talking about chronic depression or chronic anxiety certainly there.
00:14:35Some people in that bucket. They have a they have a chemical imbalance in their brain, they need medication, but then there are other groups of people who just look at them and think they're wimps, you know that they they need to suck it up there just whiners are complainers. They're looking for a free ride. They want disability that you know, whatever regardless of which even which bucket you put mental disorders into mental disorders for better or worse are horribly stigmatized and regardless of what type of disorder you have how people think about your disorder people are terribly ashamed of having a mental disorder. It's the one
00:15:24It is one of the rare groups of disorders in medicine. I can't say it's the only one but it's one of the rare groups of disorders in medicine where by and large people are still pretty Silence about so clinicians and people and the general public think about mental disorders as chemical imbalance or whiners complainers.
00:15:49There's a third possibility and this third possibility is really based on a lot of epidemiology evidence that we have. But this third possibility is also based on a lot of cutting-edge Neuroscience research that's happening right now. And that is the possibility that mental disorders May. In fact be metabolic disorders almost no one thinks about them in that way other than The Cutting Edge researchers doing this cutting-edge research way. But so some quick statistics at least just get people thinking about why why they should even consider that as a possibility or that
00:16:36Diabetes and insulin resistance are rampant. They are epidemic in the mental health community and people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. They are three times as likely as the general population to develop diabetes.
00:16:55end of Interest
00:16:58when they present with their illness when they are 18 years old and present with a new onset psychotic episode or manic episode.
00:17:09They are usually thin they're not overweight or obese yet.
00:17:15If they already have insulin resistance that we can measure.
00:17:19And the insulin resistance in particular is very pronounced in their brains. And the Really fascinating thing is people in the people used to think that the brain doesn't have insulin receptors. We used to it was what was taught in anatomy and physiology classes. In fact, that's been proven wrong on the brain does have insulin receptors, but those insulin receptors are actually slightly different than the insulin receptors in your periphery.
00:17:54And so it turns out that there are people who can be insulin resistant much more. So in their brains than in the periphery, and so there's a possibility that that is playing a role in the development of mental disorders people with mental disorders.
00:18:16on average die 10 to 20 years earlier than people without mental disorders and the cause of death, although suicide accounts for some of those deaths the cause of death number one cause of death is cardiovascular disease and number two cause of death is cancer, which are both known to be related to metabolic disorders people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder again, they comment then
00:18:50But if you follow them for 20 years as some researchers did two-thirds of the people with schizophrenia were obese after 20 years and over 50% of the people diagnosed with bipolar disorder where obese now that's not overweight and obese cuz I know the statistics for the United States or likes anywhere seventy 80% of the United States population is overweight or obese or simply overweight. They're not obese. And with this population the majority are obese that the epidemic of overweight and obesity is beyond compare with even that of the general population in the standard American diet and
00:19:39it turns out that if you look at people with metabolic disorders, so if you if you go into a clinic of people with diabetes, they are much much more likely to have major depression and when they get major depression
00:19:58say it to major depression lasts a lot longer than it does in other people and the presence of major depression makes their blood sugars worse. It makes their hemoglobin A1c worse. It makes it it increases the probability that they are going to have vascular complications. If I go to instead a cardiac floor of a hospital and I look at patients who have just had heart attacks.
00:20:28If I take two patients who have identical risk factors, they're pretty much the same weight that they were both smokers are not smokers. They have similar lipid profiles. If one has major depression in the other one does not.
00:20:43The one with major depression is twice as likely to have another heart attack in the next year as the one who does not have major depression. And so they're just a lot of evidence. This is everything. I've just said is incontrovertible. We have massive studies in all of these different populations documenting bi-directional relationship of metabolic disorders things, like obesity diabetes and cardiovascular disease and mental disorders and you can mix and match you can go any direction you want you can start with psychiatric patients and look for metabolic disorders. You can start with metabolic disorder patients and look for psychiatric and there's no question that they are interrelated it. So it's not necessarily far-fetched to think that there might actually be something there. So the most
00:21:43How many interpretation unfortunately is that many people with mental disorders are lazy Slackers and they're eating Comfort foods that you are depressed or psychotic. So they go home they sit on the couch and they eat a bag of chips and then a whole package of you know cookies. But again when you when you look at their brain scans, when you look at the way they came in they weren't doing that before their first psychotic break before their first manic break. And so when you really look at all of the evidence, it's pretty compelling that people with mental disorders have abnormalities in metabolism. And so when we look at their brain scans, we actually know that they are mitochondria are producing less energy than normal people's mitochondria are producing for some reason that our cells are more info.
00:22:43Resistant then other people's they have higher levels of reactive oxygen species, which is a saw a source of inflammation but is also a sign of a metabolic disturbance. They have much higher levels of all of those things then people without the disorders and so interesting Lee if you study people with epilepsy the same deal.
00:23:14All pretty much all of the same findings. And so I think one of the really fascinating things is that we know from eating too many decades of rigorous research, but we know from over a hundred years of clinical experience that the ketogenic diet can stop seizures and that the ketogenic diet can actually stop epilepsy take somebody who's teasing multiple times a day and put their epilepsy into remission. Some people are so lucky that they can do the diet for only three or four years stop the ketogenic diet and remain seizure-free for the rest of their life. And so the ketogenic diet clearly is doing something for epilepsy and I think that is pretty much incontrovertible. It was a Cochrane review that came out in 2016 looking at all of the evidence.
00:24:14And they absolutely concluded that this is real that there is adequate good rigorous evidence to demonstrate that this diet can and back stop seizures at least in some people and so interesting Lee the treatments that we use in epilepsy.
00:24:37End up getting commonly used in Psychiatry. So psychiatrists. We use a lot of Depakote. We use a lot of Tegretol Topamax Lamictal or Lamotrigine all the benzodiazepines epilepsy doctors Gabapentin Neurontin epilepsy doctors and Psychiatric Doctors are using the exact same medications for treatments that we call different things. But when we look at the brains of people with epilepsy and look at their
00:25:22Metabolic defects Emily look at the brains of people with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and look at their metabolic defects. There's a lot of overlap between those defects now, there's no question that having a seizure is different than having psychosis. And I did I don't mean to imply that there is no difference between the disorder is there clearly are differences between the disorders and yet the treatments that work for one set of disorders also work for these others and to me that is the basis for my saying it's not that far-fetched to think that maybe the ketogenic diet could also have an effect on people with serious chronic treatment-resistant psychiatric disorders.
00:26:22All roads lead to the ketogenic diet a long list and talking to doctor Weston about that. But I was thinking do you see the ketogenic diet is being kind of the low-hanging fruit of the room, whatever knowledge you want you saying? This is kind of a thing that we can get behind. It will create the biggest Improvement the degree that it is actually implemented and then we'll s put other minor serapis behind it to reinforce it. Is that what you say is becoming more and more such a forest address this first as opposed to my background is naturopathic Works in Lexington with a nutritional deficiencies.
00:27:22And to that like a little sub breakout is the idea of even in the keto trying to have a b real food vs. Processed food because there's a lot of junk to comes in and processed food and I kind of revert back to the hole at addiction idea with Norris work. Do you say Yep, this is you know, it's you can't claim it yet. It's still The Cutting Edge, but you know gosh you have this thing here. They were going to call diet. We have the whole, you know A Century of work and even their it shows it to change neurotransmitter Gaba is increased and therefore it makes you want to say so what's the relationship between Gaba and insulin or Gaba and dopamine. You know when you go in that direction
00:28:15I go back to the beginning juicer to see this is the biggest Stone to move and after that we can tweak it or see who is willing to implemented error not made I do I so so in my mind, you know, I think that more research is definitely needed to kind of assess its efficacy and also assess any side effects are risks for patients with mental disorders, but one thing that I'll say is that in psychiatry.
00:28:50Wait, we are.
00:28:55At a huge disadvantage to the rest of medicine in that.
00:29:06by definition
00:29:09all of our disorders are of unknown etiology unknown etiology. Even if it's causing psychosis.
00:29:21Even if it's causing.
00:29:24Paranoia hallucinations, even if it's causing depression, even if it's causing cognitive impairment. As soon as we know an etiology of this person has hypothyroidism. Oh this person has a brain infection. They have encephalopathy.
00:29:42That person is no longer getting treated by a psychiatrist that person is getting treated by a neurologist or an infectious disease specialist.
00:29:50And those those people are still treating the same brain. They're treating the same symptoms, but
00:30:00But everybody feels like I will we know what's causing this with with with psychiatric disorders. Unfortunately Again by definition, we don't know what causes any of them. And so one of the sad State of Affairs for better or worse is that the overwhelming majority of people with chronic mental disorders are being treated with off-label treatments all the time. So anytime a patient with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder is treated with more than one mood stabilizer or more than one anti-psychotic medication or more than two medications. I'm going to use an anti-psychotic plus an antidepressant. I'm going to add a benzo. I'm going to add a sleeper. I'm going to add a little mood stabilizer to help stabilize their little aggressive outbursts.
00:30:54All of that is off-label treatment meaning we don't have any evidence whatsoever that those cocktails that are so commonly prescribed to patients are effective. Let alone not dangerous. We have no evidence on any of that and and so in my mind the way I think about and talk about the use of the ketogenic diet in psychiatric disorders is that it's on par with current standard of care and on par with current standard of care is that when patients don't respond to a non label treatment, which is way too common.
00:31:39We routinely go to off-label treatment. We start adding multiple antipsychotics. We started adding this and that and the other and that's off-label. So my use of the ketogenic diet with somebody with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder is no different on the ketogenic diet is an odd label. So to speak treatment for apt for epilepsy. We already know that and psychiatrist routinely use epilepsy medications in the treatment of psychiatric disorders. And so it's not far-fetched at all to consider the use of the ketogenic diet for psychiatric disorders.
00:32:20My Hope though
00:32:24In addition to pursuing the work around the ketogenic diet is an effective intervention. My bigger. Hope is to better understand this metabolic mental overlap because I think that will help us get closer to really truly understanding. What does cause mental illness. What is what is causing these disorders in and why is it that there is so much overlap between mental and metabolic disorders and what can we do?
00:33:04To best help our patients and so I think the ketogenic diet is absolutely one possibility exercise is that I'm a huge fan, even though I was a nerdy geeky. I'm a huge fan and exercise is something I seen way prescribed for my patients as well.
00:33:29And I'm going to stay for the record for full disclosure and honesty those don't work for everyone. I wish they did. I'm doing it. I'm I'm using Me Tender Benson in patients with serious treatment-resistant illness.
00:33:46And disheartening lay and sadly it's not the miracle cure for every single human being on the planet. It has been a miracle cure for some there. I am I won't say more but I'm about to release a new paper through schizophrenia research. So stay tuned with in within a couple weeks. Should be release and and there are a couple of case reports and they're simply case reports that there are significant enough to provide a tremendous amount of Hope to our field and a tremendous amount of Hope to people who are suffering that maybe it's not too late even for you even for your brain.
00:34:46Can I can use that were demanding so rescuing the brain is what he uses for mild cognitive impairment and you know, there's a lot there there's a lot of a child under a particular diagnosis. So to say what when I listen to you, you do remind me of talking to doctor West Bend because I see is a logical extension of the conversation and he would actually reticulated is that I do see a movie called rehabilitative medicine. Do we call it a supportive care Institute for it works keto call a ketogenic diet medicine for psychiatric disorders or something like that that is a place in before maybe it's his place. It's a special day. That is name that identified that begins in this particular work and in and then we get to go further with what has changed in the percentages of responded.
00:35:46Respond and get that right out of differentiate. But do you see something like that? Maybe this is almost seems to be the next paragraph. I do I'm I dream of the day when there is a residential treatment program that I can send my patients that will
00:36:06help them do this diet and a safe environment to see if this diet will work for them that will support a lot of other things that will probably help in their recovery things like exercise things like improving sleep things like Psychotherapy things, like helping them find some kind of meaning and purpose in their life a reason to be alive a reason to go on a date for my dad when I talked about that was the thing that was missing. He didn't have meaning and purpose. He looked at his wife is being over and simply walking for the sake of walking wasn't enough and end so meaning and purpose is actually really important and it's hard to feel healthy when you when you lack that but I dream of the day when we have treatment centers like that that that I could have sent my father to with it for his diet.
00:37:06Cities that but that I can send my psychiatric patients too because it's an intensive treatment. It takes a lot of Education. It takes a lot of work and there are some dangers. I do see some patients getting hypomanic and manic within the first month of the treatment and and that needs to be managed in a safe and effective way, but honestly, I am filled with hope because
00:37:42especially for people with schizophrenia
00:37:46the paradigm
00:37:48up until now.
00:37:50Has been that they have a really crappy chronic.
00:37:57Chemical imbalance. Nobody knows what to do. Their lives are ruined their lives are devastated. I have seen patients cry.
00:38:11Because they just want to have a job. They just want to work. They want to have some self-respect. They want to be a productive citizen in our society.
00:38:26They are begging for that opportunity and yet when they get a job their paranoia gets worse their hallucinations get worse and sure enough they get fired or laid off or they quit because they can't take it and that let alone if you look at our prison systems, they're filled with mentally ill people. See if you look at the homeless population the people on the street living in cold living in squalor, they have mental disorders and
00:39:02the biggest hope in my mind is that we might have a game-changing new way of thinking about and addressing those disorders that have ruined lives that up until now people have been utterly hopeless about
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