Marc and Seth tell Rene about Adobe Experience Design, Principle, Flinto, Hugo and everything else he missed while he was reviewing the new DCI-P3 iPad Pro with True Tone. Kinda.
Show notes

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00:00:14what should we talk about the Derby, tag a VW experience design AKA Adobe XD XD was actually the name or if that was like an emoticon where you just had dead eyes on top of a smile
00:00:27what's that two can two you can be both
00:00:31so I don't understand so you have to catch me up on this cuz I'm out of the loop on Adobe Mark but we spoke to them on the show a while ago and they were talking about bringing interface design for front in Photoshop but now it looks like it's its own thing
00:00:44yes I text a way I think we've spoken about before on the shower but we really just talked about the announcement not the not the public relations public beta is now out and people actually using it people are enjoying it and a different team to photoshop so I look at it I don't understand the internal structure of adobe and waited 15 but it seems a little bit different it's more to me it's more like a lunch for screen design these kind of where I said it's not really that deep when it comes to Features but it's pretty strong on prototyping and layout and and then laying out multiple screens so that's that seems to be where it's where it's worth strength lies ahead and it's incredibly fast which is good in what way does high performance or just ask him if the tools are fast to get like me like napkin is super fast because I can annotate things almost as fast as I can think about it and put some programs they just process really fast
00:01:41concept boats right now and I'm part of the reason is because it is it is very new release very straight back so there isn't that much in it which means all the tools are available time does not Photoshop we got kind of the normal finish up you why and then you go to design space which is separate thing and then you get the liquify which is separate thing and you get the 3D you I wish you wouldn't hit 3d Doll everything changes and you get all new pedals it's it's not like that at all that it's this is just really it's like I guess it's kind of basic but in a positive and negative way so basic in the whole bunch of stuff missing that I think is either shows that it's strong for prototyping and not much else I don't know if I can use I said they could use a full time at the lines by seeing you can't edit by still trying to say you can't have you know he's a nice guy and then make nice guy bold and italic can't do that
00:02:41BJ's in a can cut and paste between Photoshop and illustrator and the shape anti-aliasing not really up to scratch but again if you considered to be a lightning-fast prototyping tool with some other abilities dead and yeah it's it's really cool I like a real failure for audience cuz I haven't looked at it at all have been so busy with all this wacky Apple stuff and it's time for the wacky Adobe stuff you can do you can just ask the questions they use Photoshop to see this as as adobe's attempt to make sure people don't get to Route over to was just catching my mixing up my High School's new kid on the Block it's been around since being some form since 2000. I think I think it is I think that's the way I love people going to see It'll be XT but I really think it's more
00:03:38more Nicholas what's what's the word how do you say that my mom has to leave rather than Robin being actual get your hands dirty to to draw little icons on tool
00:03:59are you going to switch it what kind of wire frames are you going to switch to this yeah there's been a lot of talk about this app around the office people are very very excited about it there are a significant amount of things missing that we would like to see but at the same time I think it's a good start and I've I've read a couple things that would indicate that a Dobie understands that there is a lot going on with missing even at this early stage and there's plans to add a lot of stuff in so I'm not too concerned about it I don't think I could switch to it immediately like Mark said for day today kind of mission critical stuff but I do agree that it is more like an Envision type tool and its approach in that it doesn't feel like you should be building everything here and feel that he should be painstakingly building things elsewhere and then just quickly dropping assets to get an understanding about
00:04:59a flow or how things would tie together or how transitions would work because even if they never added the stuff that they're supposedly going to add it would still be valuable in that regard right because it's integrated into all the other Adobe apps in some capacity as part of that sweet you're already paying for it most likely so you're going to have it but me personally I have such a tremendous amount of muscle memory built around Omni Graphics I just been using it that way for so long and it's gotten better for the kinds of things that I do
00:05:33and I know it's you know some people here that are like, gravel that's that's ridiculous but I have been able to make it the tool that I wanted to be and I have built such an immense speed in it that I can do a lot of stuff very very very quickly it doesn't look that amazing you know it's and it's not all full of color I usually just do stuff in grayscale but I've been able to do a lot more than I thought I ever could
00:06:00that said there's a stopping point for me where you can automate things and I mean grapple you can connect canvases and and you know add kind of like target areas that link to one another I've never felt that it really works who I wanted to so what I probably will end up doing is combining those two tools in the beginning just so I can get the best of both worlds I can keep you know the speed of my work clothes that I built but I can also get that early kind of understanding about how those screens are going to move together out of Acts day I'm very excited to play with it I haven't had a chance to yet but I've been reading about it now this week and the week prior and like I said a lot of people to talk about it around the office and people are pretty pumped it will be a link in the show notes you can use to download if you want to
00:06:48that's terrific thank you
00:06:51used necessarily a bad feel or think I think I'll make Ruffles with seems like a response to a stimulus using tools it is only as long as he really focusing on rough layouts and being able to just quickly Troy lots of elements in and position them to be out if they discuss the UI and maybe you want to the final building in in in that tool but it makes it makes a lot of sense based on that one of the other things that is missing is a life panel do you think that's something they need to have absolutely and I read something this week it says that is definitely on the road map like soon and that is something that I think would even that even that one thing would have had a whole lot of functionality because not being able to move different parts of those screens around individually like once I started using layers really heavily and Onna graffle it it was like this
00:07:51totally eye-opening experience because you know you've used layers for years and Photoshop but I don't know if they were something about the creation of wire frames and Ani grateful that I started not using layers early on and then once I realized oh I can make my life a lot easier if I did this and turn these things on and off in and then like drag these to know to placate them that kind of basic functionality seems like table Stakes for any kind of you I too will just be a bility to have multiple layers of multiple planes as call them of control within the stuff that your building and not having anything feels dirty confining to people because it's such a common staple of a lot of these tools but at like I said as I as I read earlier this week that's that stuff I coming
00:08:41are using it for you why are you asked was it do we both equally well
00:08:46dumb question I know but I'm look at it I think I think this this really and then given the name next day it's it's about experiences on it's more about the u.s. stop stop rather than the actual UI design way of doing that small details and actually building a Pixel Perfect a device so it's it's yeah I mean what it feels like just you know at the very high-level glance that I've given it and it'll like I said admittedly I haven't had much time to play with it it feels more like just understanding the connection between parts of your of your UI as opposed to building the UI there it's like you already you've already built somewhere else so you've got you no chunks of it contained elsewhere and what you're doing with NXT is connecting those pieces and then watching how they work with one another and hopefully that then informs the other decisions you've made and then back again
00:09:46so it's the two other apps I have been using if a bit as well as its day and everything I can just for the sake of it as well just have to learn it and enjoy it for years of skull experience I've also been using principal and flint and that both brilliant similar more in the interaction prototyping and prototyping spice Robin the new ideas on the both principal and Pluto have some pretty decent capabilities out I like using principal for really small interactions of single maybe single Direction while you're dragging something on the bits move as well that's it's really good van Fleet tour life on disease be better at the bigger picture of stuff it's only does this moly directions as well but I find both principle of Santo more capable than Adobe XD in its current form for prototyping
00:10:42are there different was looking into it while I'm a put some like sunshine. I have homework to do I am shamed least talk about those extensively before right reasonably new especially given a recording schedule and was a web app or a still aware that family fully weaned to be the guys in the shower but they've there since relates to a back at Boswell on The Maccabees is really nice if it sits first that's a full Eve night at Mac app as as his principal both of them when they came out natively on the Mac and and thinking these are really cool but I don't have time to play with new tools right now
00:11:22yeah yeah the dark see both pretty iPhone found both pretty easy to get into as well so I don't use a to that much but when I need them I kind of jumping into the 5-10 minutes just to quickly mock something up if you were lunching an app like if we decided that we're starting on a new app and you want to have it ready by I would say iPhone 7 launcher go to right now Mark totally unfair question but I had to ask you
00:11:44no not at all so so I be using of using Photoshop for all the design and illustrator and I if we had some kind of interaction we need to and walk out that was less than obvious then. Probably be using principal and oflyng tire and that's going to be at that that's not necessarily say anything bad about these amazing but we don't think it's a picture of the clients you may have more of an 8-foot for something like XD where is I can just generally throw a folder full of images of a developer and what kind of have enough shorthand for working with him for a long time to download download all fits together there's not really any discussion about hey this is of you controlling this thing slides in it's like you can tell that just because you can stay the night but changes so whatever
00:12:32I have a question that's sort of related to this but not exactly really into it so given given the rise of these kind of tools where you're bringing Assets in from something else or potentially creating them here
00:12:46we have this issue we have this issue for years where some clients don't understand the purpose of non I'm dead serious some clients don't understand the purpose of wireframes right they don't understand the discussion that surrounds them they don't understand the reasoning as to why we would lay them out and talk about how these things fit together and what needs to be contained within the application and you know all the stuff that wireframes do right do you think that a do you think that there's
00:13:19a place where these tools can assist in that or conversely be do you think that these tools are going to make that more challenging because you're essentially adding finished unfinished early-stage whatever creative to these these prototypes and do you think that kind of gets people in the wrong frame of mind that are they focusing on the wrong things or is this going to help and kind of obviate the need to have static kind of wire frames to have those discussions
00:13:53so had the exact same problem when when I'm done cuz I work in the past when you know like I'd climb in and it was always a tissue in something looks finished if someone thinks someone to the climate in think it's finished I think there isn't much work to do where is he you may have you made me look something up when you might require a full photo shoot that might cost thousands of dollars to actually get that cuz you know you just stole an image of things that'll be done something where it's like really rusty really similar way up in the education and and I'm sure you've gone through this with clients you have to you always have to tell him this is even though you're saying on the phone this is just a static image will be some other thing you've done that the kind of makes it look and feel like it's finished it actually isn't so educational it really matters which tool using your voice and I have to educate people to decide this is not finished this is this is going to require X number of billable hours to get it done see you on such a run on his Blackberry Passport can you knock that a problem
00:14:53you're laughing it happens again I'm sure you you'd be well aware that they spit it what we not going to talk about building a small interaction in principle that text me maybe 5 minutes and it's kind of hectic whether it's terrible one of them really do everything and it doesn't have all the limitations in place that you'll need to add in code you know all the time that the clapping and stuff so you can like we just left the scientist scroll borrow something and I haven't bothered to limit it so it goes all the way off the edge of the album The View or whatever is on this kind of thing said that it probably would be obvious that you can express the idea really really quickly sorry yeah I think I think that don't cost that much I'm in dimension X day is is part of well we don't know yet it's probably going to be part of the credit card subscription in some form
00:15:50principle principle of flinto I think of that we have to look at prices but less than $100 and that was launched prices as well and then only grafilado know how much that is but that's it's decent but not crazy expensive if it's Tools in it it really don't have any problem having many tolls I think it's it's usually good thing oh yeah I mean for the same reason you have multiple sizes of screwdriver and multiple in a screwdriver head type so she need you need more than one to all that that's just a thing that happens to be true like yeah totally
00:16:37all right let's Rachel everybody all right let's go so I did I finally block olds I can talk at length about this because I think the last time we spoke I declared myself the Goldilocks of iOS devices that I thought the middle-sized was for me and I have since changed my tune and embraced the massive monolith that is the 12.9 inch iPad Pro I'd really do you have an iPad Pro yet
00:17:16I told him I don't yeah and it's interesting that you talked about a big messy monolith even though it's
00:17:25something up for me and I I wouldn't have struggled to do it but I said in the final of these are on a big screen that's not to say you know whatever I'm 27 inch iPad Pro with a Smart Keyboard I'm just saying work yeah that'll be so that's that's pretty cool so maybe one day I'll get my paper on the review unit for the 9.7 inch and I picked it up and I was using it I couldn't get the apple pencil to work and it took me about 5 minutes to realize I was holding my old iPad Air 2 because they're almost indistinguishable if you're not paying attention to like the speaker
00:18:25we actually managed to take all of that and put it into an iPad Air 2 case in which still kind of blows my mind not all of us have 15 iPads on a disk or nice Monday they're going to fall over and kill me Mark and then you're going to feel bad about saying that if I pick up an iPad yet it's what I pet it and that's all I can be so it's all right I love the 12.9 inch iPad Pro I've been using it for almost almost everything for months now but the screen technology in the 9.7 inch I just find it fascinating truth be told I prefer the 12.9 inches because if I put it on the table in front of me I can have to split view apps that are almost iPad Air size wear on the 9.7 inch there more like iPad mini size and no my eyes aren't getting any better so that that really small but with its DCI P3 which is the expanded color gamut that you have on a 27-inch iMac and a lot of cinematic projectors and it's got this new fancy true-tone to
00:19:25Knology and both those things I just find super interesting I'll let Mark explain why DCI P3 isn't the same as 10-bit isn't the same as all the other stuff that we need like the same the memory bandwidth that we need to get real true High depth color on to our computers but I like the idea that we're going in that direction work
00:19:45yeah so I could be. What do you think of that nice when it's on the iPad Pro the percentage iPad Pro was white and the screen was bluish did because of the lights that were in the building and you turned on true tone and it became White like the color of the casing I can just adjust itself to actually look white and we all know colors in allusion in is all sorts of things in terms of light and just the way the brain perceives it in the car brands correct all the time so it isn't moving Target but we've all seen photos of iPhones or iPads where the screen looks blue or the screen looks yellow or the device looks yellow in the screen looks fine and this really does a great job of making the screen look like the actual white color of a physical object in the room and what's really smart about it like if you open the photo app it goes right off automatically it doesn't want to mess up your color Corrections on a photograph for example so it's a complete software
00:20:45weather using these two new light sensors and they got four channels each I think in there just constantly measuring the ambient light around you and adjusting the display but because it's being done that way they can just turn it off if you need it turned it back on and I just want that stuff endlessly fascinating Choice app for the the photos app and hopefully that's something that developers eventually get a hook into so we can you know you can decide if you wrap something where you whatever you doing photo editing then you might want to disable that just for your app and then when you get time about Nick tobacco sounds sounds good when you're in low-power mode
00:21:28that puts no low-power mode on iPad so there's no way to like to really do both the same time off because they both exist there and that's for various reasons but just think the way apples employment at night shift right now I don't believe it's being done like as a system level Hardware feature it's being done I think it runtime and it does use battery and we turn off the blue light in the screen it's got to amp up the yellow and red light to sort of add the illumination because the blue is what they're using to get a lot of the brightness and a lot of the grayscale information in there and we turn that out everything else is got a light up brighter in and when you're lighting up LED it's it's power consumptive so they're they're working at an opposition right now that's why you lose it when you go on low-power mode
00:22:14what does it make sense that makes sense I mean I can see at a red light so busy that the power to send you the backlight on Sunrise Sunset then it's got to keep track of your location to figure out those times there's not a timers that have a background process like waiting for you to turn on the timer when you go into low-power mode it really turns off almost everything I can turn off I'm surprised breathing that Mode still some question about when did the changes being made so seems very clear that I'd probably be the you not shift into time would be additional processing for the display would be done on the Jeep you cuz that's what you're good for it so it's difficult to know whether that's something whether it's a function of the envelopes, management of the GPU or if it's a separate China Palace what's normal so I guess that information is not being hard coded into what it's showing on the screen
00:23:08right right with the screenshot could stick to catch you could still be prior to also could do anything anyway so I mean I'm sure someone is going to see the pixel yellow before it gets displayed on your screen no I don't have different battery in a Volvo time anyway and if there was a better way I'm sure they'll they'll eventually even if it's more difficult all eventually switch should we get rid of places eventually
00:23:47yeah yeah yeah also another another interesting thing about the the processing I know it talk about the 5K iMac previously the water game at the DCI P3 white again
00:24:00the I believe the iPad Pro doesn't have attended display oh I believe it's a bit yeah yeah yeah I think I only has I think the 5K iMac stew so I don't know any that's the thing about that is that the that the colors are honestly the only memory the buffest is on the channel then you got 0 to 2:55 or talk to us before and if you're spreading that that range the 256 steps if you'll spreading it over I'm an hour away gamut like I saw GB which is what most I was devices are then it's less likely to show pending issues where is it be strips that are for a wider range water, trp3 you got the same amount of steps but it's it's at expressing
00:25:01watercolors high contrast rain so it that's one issue but I'm you know it's it's really a matter of 3 went went right now it was almost too early I had left at 3 it was fine it was certainly slower in many respects me up at 2 but the display was amazing but I really see the new iPad Pro the web was like yeah you open up a lot of photographs a lot of web sites and you could just see if you could count the pixels in the photos but yeah yeah this is being the same with us there's a whole bunch of Hardware stuff that needs to happen Havanese get quicker and what we really need is high a bit depth images and tips processing in the window compositing could do that but then I'll just end up wasting all bunch of RAM on the devices and oversee iPads have some but not limited amount and then you have you been with
00:26:01just tell you say I have almost the same as I do as not yet I think sure if if you like it you enjoy it it makes the experience better than great that's that's awesome that's really help someone who's trying to build Saya car website or a t-shirt website where they trying to show colors that doesn't really help them at all but you're not too bad because again you open up a normal iPad in a really badly that room and it looks yellow anyways I don't look yellow until you in your brain adjust and suddenly the iPad looks blue and white brain why so so I guess you fighting the Brian the brain is used by United States usually relative measure in the brain and when you talk about color Management on end and not shipped actually work oh my oh my glee opposed to color management element of the idea was to have the colors in absolute call us by
00:27:01so that if you choose that I read whatever and then you tag with a color profile and then you display it on a device that he's calling managed and you've got ball pipeline working well which usually doesn't do that then the absolute color the other and it displays recently what calibrated so it's it's an absolute spice but it might not be comfortable again if you looking at a show website it may not match the teacher at all well if you're actually wearing t-shirt in the room with whatever lighting is there but that's again it's the opposite it's it's almost the opposite desire and function of color Management in order to achieve two-tone Apple has to do the the most likely best color calibration at the factory level that they ever could in order to have that system working reliably afterwards they had to make sure that stuff is all nail down first
00:27:49right that I sent that makes sense technology once you look at it and I look at my phone and I wish this day that would just transfer from one device to the other so everything could just correct now and I wouldn't see any of these weird colored screen cuz that's the worst thing in the world something like my Apple TV so I can correct my television and my television to look like will match the room light one color banding and televisions on my television I've done everything I possibly can and I still say it's just horrible let's look at your meltdown the podcast you can talk about the Reds in the introduction to Daredevil
00:28:32yeah yes awesome this is why we need Apple to make it even if a 30 inch Cinema display and use it as a TV but that was that would have been very expensive and probably really bad choice a friend of mine are webos say he bought the best powered LED TV from he's been loading it over me for the last few weeks
00:29:00yeah that came out a little bit too late for me but yes I think that'll be that'll be the one I get now if I could or I can just roll over and go back to a little cathode-ray tube black and white baby in the corner watching 10 happy rabbit ear antennas just forget about all this stuff
00:29:18that's how you like to talk when I ditch
00:29:21oh I adore it you know my concerns about even getting it where I had the air I had the air to the ER 2 was my all-time favorite device I just thought it was the best and I thought this is all I'll ever need like this size is plenty and I you know a lot of people at the office had the big one and I try them out and I went to the store like three separate times and tried them out and every time I did I was like now this is just silly this is not for me this is not for me and I don't know last week I was talking to some of my friends at the office and they were like you you probably need to do this so I guess it's time you just bit the bullet and did it so I did and basically all of my concerns about it being too big or weird or whatever we're completely costs the minute I set it up as my own and started using it with my own stuff and and it's just great I mean having a little bit
00:30:21more space a lot more space on that screen to do the kinds of things that I am doing with iOS Now is awesome and it's very comfortable it's if you know it's more fun to use than a laptop for me right now it's like that's where the apps are that I want to use so it's a matter of enjoying my Yahoo kind of personal Computing experience again as opposed to just doing stuff but even the Smart Keyboard the first couple times I touched it I just thought this is the worst thing that has ever been created ever and after about 24 hours of using it consistently now I think it's great like I really I really do it's not like I brainwashed myself I just got comfortable and thought oh okay I see you on this is the way it is now and I'm fine with
00:31:11so it's hard for me to clarify because like I love the mac and I love working on the Mac and I love multi-window and drag and drop and I'm just stuck using it as just hard-wired into my brain but there's something about having that the Apple Smart Keyboard is so small easy to carry around in the apple pencil I can draw with it that they can't do everything my Mac and do and I can't do everything it can do but it just feels next-gen to me
00:31:36it definitely feels like the future of what using a computer should feel like and even though the keyboard you know I look at it and I think this is this is kind of an anchor to the Past right you look at the key layout you look at what is actually on the keys you look at what you're doing with it and you're like I can't quite get into the future yet as long as it says here but then at the same time I'm 7 times faster on that thing that I am on the on-screen keyboard and I've gotten pretty good at the on-screen keyboard so I think that at least for me the future of computing is a combination of you know the old and the new it's it's yes I'm pressing physical keys but they are super super shallow I'm okay with it I can take them anywhere and I can toss them next to me on the couch if I don't need them and then do these other things like I I like the flexibility
00:32:29I love it so much more now and as I was becomes more able to do things I think that's only going to become more enjoyable to use
00:32:39I think so too can't wait till Market ones we can talk about it I'll give you some point you know I will do it all here
00:32:48yeah. 15 inch iPad Pro I'm so I can get one for months to come around to this so don't feel bad and that's what's my my mom I bet you are still fine so quick but I'm not sure she wants that once I need to head down to my mom or someone else then I'm yeah you talking about just reminded me that I started using SnapChat who started using it at the company that I work in and it took me forever to figure out how to use it I feel like the parent when you got the VCR need to have your kid program it for you this is like my Transcendent moment when I realize that but I don't know if it's bad in your face my gut instinct is to say it's bad into undiscoverable inscrutable interphase but I don't know if that's just me and the paradigms that I'm used to in this make sense to somebody who's you know mobile 1st and social first in terms of their upbringing but I'd I swipe this way swipe that way just I'm so confused all the time before we even get into that I'd like to
00:33:48just call attention to the statement we started using SnapChat at my company yes I am not part of the Snapchat crowd and that puts me on the outside and I feel like a like a jerk saying it this way but that just seems so funny to me because my media play on Snapchat and monstrous and I totally like hey great more power to you like you did a great thing and people are into it but my off my primary association with Snapchat is obviously like people taking inappropriate pictures of themselves at then self destruct So when you say we're using it at my company I can't help but have that reaction first even though I know it's so much more no high knees have been harmed in the making of the Snapchat like HR sanctioned Snapchat stories and they have like all these Publishers that are in there and making these I don't know but I think everyone is fighting for your
00:34:48and your Google and Twitter are doing app Facebook is doing Facebook Instant apples doing Apple news I forget what Snapchat is called but they have some certain publisher partners that they want on their platform and it's it's all about like in the old days you would just Shuffle everyone to your website but now people just want to go to website anymore they want to stay whenever social platform there on and just weeds up in Twitter we did in Facebook we didn't Snapchat so if you're not there you just don't exist for all these people so I didn't mean to derail you at all specific things about the interface that you wanted to to bring up it's just that I either I'm too old to get it or dishes about interface I'm not sure which one
00:35:28I've never even looked at it I I hate to say that out loud cuz it makes me sound woefully not up to date on things but I've never even I've never even downloaded the app so I can take a photo or shoot a video you can swipe left to get to a list of friends that you can then chat with you can swipe right to get to a list of stories you can swipe right again to get to a list of Publishers you can swipe down to bring up information about your profile when you taking a photo you can add text you can scribble on it you can swipe to get filters at do all sorts of distortion things and all of this up is invisible like you just have to Discover It by either being told or playing around with it because there a few buttons but a lot of like moving like a speciality of it is it's like a giant dystopian canvas you just have to do your best to sort of shuffle through so do you think that's a product of the change in scope for what they started out doing and what they are doing now like again just to reiterate my
00:36:28precious Snapchat is open it up take a picture send it which to it to me that the first screen that you're describing sounds like the original app As I understood it and they've added these other things that you can do off off Candice that you have to then you know like you said discover your Instagram is very similar terms of concept like it's open up the app take a photo share it but it had like buttons to apply filters and to apply effects it's not like you have to know to swipe in a certain direction and then it wanted to use my location to bring up filters I didn't know why that was so like an old man I just panicked and said no so I hate I hate to say this but do you think like you know you made the joke earlier do you think this is just
00:37:15this is just us not really being a part of the the demographic that will swipe in every direction prior to understanding the user interface of an application like not seeing the buttons not knowing that all these things are here is that a problem for the other people that are using SnapChat it doesn't seem to be because it's obviously an enormous success but is it that those people were into the app they were on board at a time when it was simple and they have developed and grown with the app and you're coming to it later and not knowing all the things you can do or is it just that there's a fundamental disconnect between the way that people I hate to say it our age think about software versus people that are younger than us finish this I don't get it but I also don't want to say I don't get it when it could just be bad in her face because things that are popular can be total dumpster fires and it could just be that it's like the Bloomberg terminal they try to redesign the Bloomberg terminal to make it
00:38:15how to use and all the Bloomberg paper like hell no I don't want this to be easy to know what easy to use I want anybody to be able to do this and I wonder if it is something I guess I'm actually figure out of scribble and at text I am amazing and like you feel like a source of like a feeling of Conquering the interface with exceeding despite the interphase which might be a motivator I have such a multi complicated onion Beast how do you quantify that how do you know is this a terrible interface and everybody's just okay with it or am I completely just has this thing past me but we all use Skype as a terrible interface
00:38:49you know we all have to breathe air 2 and you will use Windows for years have you tried the Snapchat yeah yeah so I have your Snapchat user so I haven't used the whole lot but I've used enough to totally get what you talked about with it being really weird just watching her with to use so it's more it's much. Just at the learning curve and then I'm not I'm not sure lucky when I am not sure if that's how
00:39:23incredibly intelligent and well-planned thoughtful design and this is being done so that people feel like they made some kind of achievement when they when they blend it or it was just terrible I don't know because I think they both probably look the same when you when you see the results and once you get it but yeah I know he's maybe we'll have to change that as the company grows I mean if used by line as well
00:39:55Devon has a pretty terrible interface yeah it's it's just wasn't able to use
00:40:02yeah yeah yeah it definitely different but this part of the charm of some of these some of these apps that that the demo fun game to explore and find out where with you eyes it's not like I can drop it at least and then it's you know you tap that button and it Scrolls and it does the thing and you know it's it's it's really actually quite quite interesting and challenging to to to work out how to do something and then there's a small mango and you can't do something or moment of Joy when you when you figure something out what you always say when Elsa
00:40:37you just sounded like Palpatine and not Australian
00:40:45you can never tell I think it's so I don't have to save I'm probably I probably full on the on the side of being
00:41:04very intelligent and and very intentional for the you I was a terrible in her face and that's Muse by billions of people so it's not always a AK-47 x e k 47 interface you know what's Brazilian by a lot of people just got uglier user experience I don't know I don't know if it's even use WhatsApp enough to truly understand but it seems like it's almost like Windows in that if you have a lot of people using it and they can't that there are no Alternatives like you can't just switch instant messenger clients while you can email out because each protocol of different I can't decide that I like a telegram betters I'm going to get my WhatsApp messages they are like iMessage better as soon as I get my Facebook Messenger thread scenario if if all your friends want a platform you have to use it despite how bad it's interface it
00:42:04you have to use Office despite how terrible like the ribbon bar was it because everyone was giving you office documents and that that's sort of like I think it's a good get you in this thing they just are poking you with a stick and it's nothing else you can do but that book by the SEC
00:42:18yep yep that's that's probably it I mean yeah I guess this business reasons why and network effect reasons why some of these things change if you tried to call you baby trying to color it was ugly and you make it really nice you going to get complaints so much trouble at least it's encrypted now right what's happened is he does not but the actual Communications are
00:42:52they don't talking to us to Southeastern what I'm talking about oh I don't I don't use that app it's terrible I'm talking to you not for me and then every couple of years I look at it again and go nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope
00:43:12yep bus I don't I don't really know anybody who uses it quite honestly everybody I know uses iMessage or just SMS I'm not on Facebook so that's pretty much all you did sweet again though I think once or twice I came back yeah yeah I'm not spending a ton of time on Twitter but I did resurface I explain myself and it people were kind of sort of happy to see me again which I owe you
00:43:38so what are these things the things I have in common is that they are a lot of them conversational you I swear you know we took me a lot of check lines and Facebook in is it Facebook him the the weather we wouldn't have any of these Services Australia yeah but what do you guys think of conversational you you eyes and using using chat and chat Bots to to do things rather than having actual buttons up cieslak Izzy's build a little bit around that blood until I leave it I'm taking it to Thibodaux Joseph
00:44:17I've been seeing more articles lately about Bots being the new user experience staying like the new explosion and I was just reading stuff today I am not sure I really am not sure that it is a terrific idea I think there's a ton of utility that these kinds of conversational interfaces can afford US and you know like Renee said earlier if all your friends are on a platform you're going to be there so if you're somewhere already I can see why you would want to stay there right that's why slackbot is part of slacking on a separate application
00:44:55but there's I don't know there's something about it that feels tedious to me even though I love texting words and typing and I do it a billion times a day there's something about box that I haven't quite embraced personally yet in terms of their utility I understand how they can be useful I seen really awesome examples of how they can be used. You know the Facebook one seems really cool that it has always hooks into different services and and can do a lot for you
00:45:27I just don't know I feel like it's more of a fad then like the next phase you know it's VR quite honestly feels like the next phase to me chat box and and bought you eyes feel like a thing that is happening now but that might not be as pervasive as people seem to think they're going to trick me look at some point I'll just get so what's your bank number but I'll just do it I mean that I just read something about there's a there's a thing that people do when interacting with box swear like don't make a request of a bot and the Bible you know everything's done in the conversational tone obviously it's not like I am delivering your request because that would be terrible but the body responds very helpfully like I book that table for you and you know your Uber will pick you up at this time and people are thanking the AI like hey thanks and it goes oh you're welcome
00:46:27what street does that right it's done in such a way where it's like I'm interacting with the person like I done talking to a customer support person but you're not you're talking to an app it's actually which I find very odd but also there's something in people that makes them want to anthropomorphize everything so it feels like clippy was way ahead of his time or that would you like your early early games you know you're standing at a 4 if there's a road I was basically a conversation with you why video game before we had the ability to make graphics and things yeah but it was less personalized right it was just here is information react to it and then you do it and then there's a reaction to the reaction it's it's kind of a cause and effect as opposed to talking to somebody you know like you said there were parts of it sure if it's like you know do you want to go left or right left okay this happened and it's sort of a question and answer but I think the whole point of this new surge in
00:47:27you know this interface Paradigm is that it feels like you're talking to somebody it doesn't feel like you're interacting with a nap and that feels more natural to people which is why they say the things they do and do the things to do in stank the bot when they're done interacting with them in out sounds like you're saying something up podcast app would you like background music do you like it a comforting audio bed set again unless the bolts that might be nice to you when they rule the world that's all I'm going to say listen listen I've been preparing for the uprising for a long time Mark he's got his chainsaw arm all ready to go I would say it's like Siri I think was the first really common popular one we're certainly there is interface but if you're across the room in your you're just saying hey can you do this or that for me there is no visual interface is completely audio and yet we are dealing with his huge install base of visual interface
00:48:27so we we initially started with Computing well off to punch cards we had the command line interface type stuff in load this run this do whatever and then graphic graphical user interfaces time along which is better now we have both we have terminal in the neck we have our case on a Mac even though they were zomacton have them and we we have Windows we have command line then friends come along we have Siri we have natural language and now it's basically command line interface on a short time I go to a server I'm not going to something else but essentially the same thing and and the way I feel that this stuff is yes they're all great just use the right one for the right time so I put method we get a microphone that can accept voice commands or something oh wait we get a chat window we might already be in and we might type something like
00:49:27I think you can you guys need to question so you can kind of like Gosford April something that's that's why don't try to change everything to a conversational you up and that's not going to work I went back to go back to the good old days we didn't have any other choice apart from having a conversation with you I make a command line
00:50:01it's it's better for something so I used to use terminal on my Mac actually increasingly so because I'm kind of letting more programming and stuff but something's it's not right for all the things
00:50:16but let me let me ask you this you know the conversational nature of it via text input that's a thing that people respond to very favorably right now because texting and messaging whatever is a very prevalent thing Society speaking it everyone quote on quote does right what would traditionally II user interface for certain things onto a phone because the phone screen is small once you but if you have enough space have a conversation which gives you because you have maybe one or two of the previous commands and not much else and responses and equal to the next one you know you can't fit you can't fit certain devices into me to find that's just like that's why these things work what I was getting at is
00:51:09people are embracing this because it is it feels very natural that they're used to touching the friends now they're just texting a bot in the body is responding and answering questions are providing services in slack you kind of initiate this in most cases with a slash command and you kind of have to keep this mental list of all the slash commands that you have available at your disposal yes if you type slash it'll prompt you and give you stuff to pick from but there's in in that aspect there's a mental overhead of what can I do what can I ask where as I keep hearing about stuff like the Amazon Echo where you just talk to it and it does stuff and that to me feels like like chat box seem like a stopgap measure like we want to get to this point this is what we doing now The Echoes sort of doing it and it continues to grow in that direction Siri wants to do this but obviously we know there's limitations to it I feel like voice real actual voice
00:52:09input is going to be far more transformative than these things and so when you can instead of typing these things say these things with a very high level of Ease comfort speed etcetera I feel like that's going to be the kind of thing where then you're talking to different box and you're literally talking to them and you're you're having a more natural interaction like I keep I keep coming back to the movie Her where he's talking to a computer the whole time but it is so personalized and it is so humanized that those walls of I'm interacting with an AI completely dissolve and you are just interacting you're interacting with a personality as opposed to a program
00:52:53yeah sure but I think it depends on what you're trying to convey in the sitting things where you can be really specific when you're typing but if you actually tried to explain that even to another human using natural language some of that would be quite quite difficult yeah I really just think this is just another tool and normal thing is 2 / index on something when it's when it's brand new and that's so I guess what we think we just saying that and eventually it'll hopefully mature and people want to stand why it's good and wanted to go to and then that's how it will be used in future chatbots are the new weather apps which were the new Twitter apps which were Etc
00:53:40what else what else do we have one of the ultimate Jenga website while we were gone because there's a whole bunch of static site generator out there and will using something else previously will use will using, and I got salt and kind of we had a few issues the new builds many versions of hammer broadcast site and I got bit by a couple times by uploading broken files and that was my fault because I should have done it but I should have checked everything but I don't trust him up my website hits am so hot I had to make me say oh my Lord and this is probably the Wheelhouse of this podcast but I really like the idea of static site generator mostly I was kind of a bro show and just articles and stuff that the county doesn't
00:54:40I just like Facebook with clear static in audio is bad static on the web is good
00:54:45yeah yeah right absolutely good brand for a different than just had a look at all the options out there to static site generator and I ended up using something called huuuge I will push it like in the show notes it's built using garlic which is why it's called you guys are and so it's it's compiled rather being Ruby interpreted end result it's ridiculously fast thought if you've already built it and it has to rebuild it doesn't like 20 milliseconds of something in the Four Tops exactly exactly so it's it's just it's just really cool to come to the web server as well so you can have the web page open and I can be editing whatever is CSS so I should email or even the album The continue to supply in mock down and hit save and it's it's already refreshed so it's it's pretty cool I realize how much better options
00:55:45so some are you Sofia and Hugo really good can I ask why you didn't use my new tag line Mark what's what's the new tagline
00:55:56change it please call
00:56:09okay. Drupal was like a big content management system that generates the pages dynamically but then we have all sorts of cash layers on top of that
00:56:19right right which which makes sense and that's with what done in the past with WordPress so it's heads where the cash plugins you get for that so I guess this is kind of exciting at a step further they probably it's not so good if you editing a lot of content all the time but we we just we don't really say maybe millions of pages sometimes so that would be a lot to do around here
00:56:45so I mean we're a couple together Network so originally original CMS Marcus are founder just wrote like he knows there's nothing back in the times we just rode his own CMS for visor Central and Trio Central cracker you started on Google for I more was originally on movable type but then when we merge with the iPhone block they were on WordPress we might get it over to Wordpress we had our own CMS for a while that was Ruby on Rails but it had a glass jaw I would just fall down all the time so we ended up moving everything to Drupal and now I think Ron Google 6 across the entire network
00:57:20add ripples gray I mean like it if you can think of it you can do it as long as you have This brilliant PHP programmers to do it for you that's what I like and it till like maybe like a Brad Pitt Angelina Jolie thing where it seems like a really good idea but man is a lot of work Hollywood star basically just Bongo box office but man you got to keep them happy
00:57:44tell Mark I had a question how what it what would you classify the fiddly level of Hugo at like I know Jekyll can get pretty badly it's it's pretty similar Jekyll & Middleman since it's been really is very much command line price that you have to talk about how much stuff in to get it installed into this was a beauty have a previously that was using it was just an app you download it and show you have to hand cut all the templates but but it was unusually the app running and it just rebuilt every time I notice a change where is Hugo is she's quite a bit different very much command line. But I've been learning a little bit about scripting bash scripting so I've actually just written some scripts that the right side just double-click stuff in the find it to build and it runs through a whole bunch of stuff it's pretty simple but I found the learning curve I think it was like Snapchat
00:58:44not on your way to find out some fun something to do to rebuild I saw it I knew I wanted to be static because we just purchased suthep is really well and it means I'll wait we hosted we can you call her so wait wait time I like being able to have tons of traffic and and know that that's not going to cause issues and the best way to do this without static side so yeah and you will have to change I just have to keep hitting it until finally worked and I don't understand it but incredibly quickly was awake really far as the work is its Karla has can you can you confirm or deny that I actually need to build build Rusty a place that so I can give it to him can you play this file all his programming to Loco
00:59:41there's something appealing about static sites though I like as a nerd knowing like oh I have this stack of files and this is my whole website and I can almost touch them like there's something very nice about that for the computer to find gas with cashing in end they have cash and validation issues and you know maybe random makes a change and then yeah that might be a million pages that fix and it's not going to rear end of them all at once so it has to decide when the case she's no longer good in Makkah dirty or whatever works with you go I just even if even if you got to Hugo can handle tags and pagination and that you would normally think would you deal with pitch pay or something like that I'm all over it be continually do it I just rebuild all the pages so she'll cut if you need to get a thousand articles and and a thousand tags
01:00:41you just going to end up with thousands and thousands of pages that's just the way it is but it's quick enough that it doesn't matter and I guess if we ever got too big it wouldn't be suitable but even without having witnessed many articles as you tonight I think we got over a hundred so including help document silica 200 something $150 something. It goes on and on a side that's not very many but I think we'll be fine with this even even if I start adding whole bunch of tagging pages and other stuff you have to work that you're putting up
01:01:13I think you you're welcome yes so it seems the same suitable for us but I think if we got to a big ass Kyle then it wouldn't be just WordPress use WordPress on and off for years and landed back there and there's the certain Comfort to it enjoy templating would price wee wee yea I found that really if I keep it super simple I think I only have three plugins and there seem I'm using is like 4 years old that's ridiculous I don't want to change anything it works it's a very simple very plain and I'm totally fine with it
01:01:57I like it I like it fine
01:02:00so on that note Market people don't actually see this new website that you don't work and they go
01:02:06I'm so what's that looks kind of the same people that are some new features now and some of the songs being tweaked but it's and we're also a Bojangles on Twitter and I'm not good with on Twitter that's not going to see you Saturday when you do Dane to use the twitters where are you
01:02:22yeah as I said earlier I'm not spending a ton of time there but I am back in some capacity so you can find me Seth Clifford on Twitter send me a reply as they say and I will probably see it and if you want to see my writing it's at Seth Clifford. Me I'm trying to get back into that make that a more regular thing because I do really enjoy it and it gives me an excuse to sit in front of my massive new bypass and I'm at Renee Richie on Twitter Instagram and now on Snapchat I will channel the snaps it will just be snap the the chat out of them I expect special snaps for me either
01:03:05so you are you Renee Richie on salad fingers and everything I'm remarkably not created when it comes to usernames that's awesome you got it I didn't get it on Snapchat it's not too late getting there any Richie he tries every freaking time

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