Full Transcript for EP281: How To Create A Coherent Content Strategy & Write Copy That Delivers Results, With Alice Brown

68 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,160 hesitations. So I am a messaging strategist 69 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,960 and a copywriter, but it always comes down to connecting with 70 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,600 humans, helping them see what they want to reach and that goal 71 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,920 they want to get to understanding those friction 72 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,720 points and obstacles in the way and, and helping people's 73 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,840 customers, my, my clients, customers get to that point and 74 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,960 feel comfortable and confident, you know, trusting this new 75 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,160 brand or, or getting outside of their comfort zone. 76 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,000 I really like that. And we were talking about this 77 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,000 before we, we, we did this recording about that copyright. 78 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,480 When people hear the word copywriter, it, it doesn't, it 79 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,279 doesn't convey that that kind of strategic lens so much. 80 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,080 And actually that copywriting under undervalues like the skill 81 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,680 set and the experience that a strategist like yourself brings 82 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,440 in because understand the audience, getting the message in 83 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,800 proposition right first, then drives execution. 84 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,600 So I really, I really like that as and, and you're right, I 85 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,200 mean, it's, it's applicable to any business because people 86 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,320 often underestimate how important it is and how much 87 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,400 effort is required to understand how people want to be talked to. 88 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,680 And we all have our own preconceptions, don't we? 89 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,240 Have what What we do, what language we should use, and 90 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,120 whether it resonates or not is a different thing. 91 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,840 Yeah, for sure. And I think this brings up the, 92 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,360 the difference between a content writer and a traditional 93 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,080 copywriter and a conversion copywriter, which is where I see 94 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,920 myself in that, you know, it's all, it's all words, isn't it? 95 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:14,280 But if we're thinking about copywriting in the space of we 96 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:19,000 want someone to take an action, it's that really lovely 97 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:24,400 collaboration of the head and the heart, the data-driven 98 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,680 strategy and the sort of emotional resonance that you use 99 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,320 to execute on it. And that's where I like to see 100 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,880 myself in that we're not just sort of educating people. 101 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,760 We're not just informing people, we are connecting with them on 102 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,600 an emotional level, but we're driving them to take an action, 103 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,240 which is why I love my job because I get to measure the 104 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,840 results of of the more what some people would call creative side 105 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:53,040 of it. Yeah. 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,960 You know, this, this links quite nicely into the next question 107 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,760 because, you know, brands, some brands have a disconnect with 108 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,760 how they talk to customers in terms of the language they're 109 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,720 using, the language that will resonate the customers. 110 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,600 And they can also have disconnect across channels where 111 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:08,840 they're talking different voices and different mediums. 112 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,600 And I think what I find, and you talk a lot, a lot in your post 113 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,240 about the psychology, but understanding humans and, and 114 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,480 what, what like, you know, influences how we behave and how 115 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,800 we respond. And I find that lot businesses 116 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,520 don't understand that part. It's the psychology of the, the 117 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,160 human behaviour and what drives us to respond. 118 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:29,760 Do you want to talk us through a bit though? 119 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,240 What, what do you see? Why do you think certain 120 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,360 business or some business to have disconnects in terms of how 121 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,360 they talk, how people want to be taught to? 122 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,800 For me, every project starts with customer research and not 123 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,680 just at a distance. Sitting in a Facebook group 124 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,400 group and just copy and pasting people's comments about the 125 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,440 obstacles that they experience. Yes, that can be really useful. 126 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,320 But actually having a one to one conversation with a customer, 127 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,600 someone who's been in that moment of highest tension quite 128 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,160 recently, that emotions that they feel going through that 129 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,120 decision making process are very close to them. 130 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,880 As in it happened quite recently so that they can recall it in as 131 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,400 much detail as possible. And I think the disconnect comes 132 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,240 when maybe you've done, you know, some sort of customer 133 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,280 research, but it was a year ago. And

since then are the brands 134 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,920 that have come out in the same space as you or you have created 135 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:34,760 what you think your ideal customer is. 136 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:41,080 And you have APDF document with a little image from, you know, a 137 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,240 clip art image at the top of who you think your person is. 138 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,040 And like the psychology of humans is so detailed and so 139 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,760 nuanced that without actually having those conversations with 140 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,120 customers, it's so hard to understand what is going to 141 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,480 motivate them. And I think that's where the 142 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,880 disconnect comes out. When you're unable to locate 143 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,520 what intrinsically motivates someone to either use your 144 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,400 product or do the activity that they're doing with your product 145 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,320 without understanding what that internal gut feeling is that 146 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,480 makes them want to do that It the, the marketing that they put 147 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,320 out can be quite surface level because it's what they think 148 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,120 their customers want. And so in terms then if you 149 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,240 think about it in terms of language, yes, your brand is 150 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,400 going to have a, a viewpoint on the world that's going to 151 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,480 influence the way that you speak to people. 152 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,960 But actually collecting that voice of customer data, AKA the 153 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,440 transcripts of the interviews you have with people gives you 154 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,560 an insight into how people describe their problems and they 155 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:53,600 describe the motivations. And it's something that AI 156 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,800 cannot replicate. The language that people use, 157 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,600 the nuances of the emotions that they experience. 158 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,720 And exactly the the language that they use is so unique to an 159 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,880 audience that can make a brand so unique. 160 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,640 And I think it's about gathering those different pieces of 161 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,960 information. So I've I've tried to reverse 162 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,800 engineer some of like my most successful projects and 163 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,280 understand what are those three things that can create that 164 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,720 connection between voice on different platforms, connection 165 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,880 with the customers and how they talk. 166 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,840 And for me, it's the intrinsic motivations and the learning 167 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,760 that from the horse's mouth. It's integrating your viewpoint 168 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,040 and the world, and it's integrating the obstacles and 169 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,920 hesitations that people experience. 170 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,040 And if you combine those three, you can find that sweet spot of 171 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,120 the message you need to communicate and the language you 172 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,280 need to communicate it in so that you're connecting with 173 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,640 customers in the most effective and efficient ways you can. 174 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:08,080 What do Mattel, Victoria Beckham, Sennheiser and Glossier 175 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,720 all have in common? They power their businesses with 176 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,840 Shopify. Shopify is the most innovative 177 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,160 and scaled commerce platform on the planet. 178 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,440 It also happens to have the best converting check out on the 179 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:27,920 planet Shopify Powering the future of enterprise commerce. 180 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,360 Find out more at shopify.com/enterprise. 181 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,840 Yeah, I, I like the fact that you you tease out the thing 182 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,360 about the research. You might have done it a year 183 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,640 ago, but things move on. The market changes. 184 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,160 And I see this a lot as well of the people who might have had a 185 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,440 snapshot in time about, about how they position sales or how 186 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,960 they describe their USPS. And those things become stale 187 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,760 quite quickly. And, and even the language 188 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,480 changes. The, the, the, the phrases that 189 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,360 people I've, I've done been involved in customer groups and 190 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,000 I know this is that some businesses, they probably might 191 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,760 not have the time, effort or budgets to do proper, meaningful 192 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,040 large customer groups. The work of a large business. 193 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,360 When you get a group of customers in a room and you, you 194 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,280 suddenly pull apart all of these assumptions that you have and 195 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,240 realise that some of the things that you held true really don't 196 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,560 resonate and other things that you thought were quite Willy 197 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,400 really stick with the audience and it helps you to refine it. 198 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,160 So yes, I think it's really good to point out that things change 199 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,280 over time. Yeah. 200

00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:32,840 And my, what I found in the past is that actually when you're 201 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,200 speaking to someone 1:00 to 1:00 and they built that person 202 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,320 believes that you are a part of the business. 203 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,560 So if I go into a customer interview on Zoom and say I'm 204 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:48,160 not part of X brand, I'm a third party, please be as honest and 205 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:53,680 frank and and real as you can. It takes away that element of 206 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,440 I'm trying to impress you and make something sound good, which 207 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,920 I think can sometimes come across in say like focus groups 208 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,920 you're in, you know, just maybe influenced by what the person 209 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:08,080 says next to you. You want to sound impressive. 210 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,920 And that can take away from that rawness of the intrinsic 211 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,520 motivators, the reality of those obstacles and hesitations. 212 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:19,720 Even if they're like irrational and emotional and maybe a bit 213 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,480 embarrassing, they're still insights into the customer 214 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,360 experience that can, that can paint, you know, extra texture 215 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,520 into the, into the content that you're writing or the copy that 216 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,560 you're writing. So for me, it's, it's about, 217 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:39,480 yeah, getting a conversation booked in with someone as close 218 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,760 to that decision making process as possible. 219 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,040 And in a space where they're reassured that, yes, we might 220 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:47,840 use some of their ideas, but it's never going to be 221 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,280 attributed to them. It's anonymous as far as they're 222 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:57,800 concerned and making them feel comfortable to, to reveal those 223 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,160 things. So personally I would suggest 224 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,640 doing, you know 1 to one interviews as opposed to a group 225 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,320 because you get so much deeper into and under the skin of the 226 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,760 problems or or the desires of the customers. 227 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,720 Yes, that's a good point. I got a question about how you 228 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,520 marry the, the customer lens with the, the brands. 229 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,080 And because some, some brands and you find this in I, I've 230 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,480 found their businesses often where there is a real emotional 231 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,480 buy into what that brand should be and the style and the tone 232 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,520 and there's quite prescriptive way of how we talk. 233 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,640 And that might not always marry up 100% with the outputs from 234 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,000 the customer insight. How do you approach this? 235 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,160 Like, how do you guide people on marrying the two together? 236 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,480 So you you reach a point where the brand is is happy that it's 237 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,000 not betraying what it wants to stand for, but actually it's 238 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,800 talking in a way that will will land properly with its audience. 239 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,480 Yeah, this is a really interesting question because 240 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,840 when I asked for feedback from people, there are really only 241 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,240 two questions that I ask. And I've had to bring boundaries 242 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,880 to how people provide feedback to the things like, you know, 243 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:12,560 the strategies that create the copy that I write. 244 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,920 And those two questions are, does it, is it going to resonate 245 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,440 with your customer? Is it a lie in line with your 246 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,160 brand values? And sometimes a a sentence or a 247 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:31,400 phrase or a headline could feel disconnected from what else the 248 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,320 brand is saying elsewhere. But it's come directly from 249 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,760 customer data. So I try and encourage my 250 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,920 clients to see that as a almost a priority over this doesn't 251 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,840 feel right. If it's totally opposite to like 252 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,280 what the brand values are, that's fair enough and we'll 253 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,920 find a middle ground. But I find myself having to 254 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,800 educate a lot of people on, you know, what's more important? 255 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,960 Does it resonate with your customer or and if not, why not? 256 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,480 Usually the decisions that I make on what to write are based 257 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,280 on conversations I have on interviews and and survey 258 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:15,000 results. So it's, it is a middle ground 259 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,240 that you have to balance. But I would say it, you know, if 260 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,280 you're sitting, if anyone listening to this is in the 261 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,040 position where they're not sure how to find that balance, ask 262 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,880 yourself those two questions before you say, OK, why else 263 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,000 does this not fit? And I would prioritise those two 264 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,840 things before you go and, you know, change things just because 265 00:15:36,840 -->

00:15:39,800 it doesn't feel right or it it's slightly different from the last 266 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,960 campaign that you put out. And that might give you some 267 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:51,040 some fuel to revisit your brand voice guidelines to say, yes, 268 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,760 you know, we were really strict about what we was, how we were 269 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,640 speaking before, but can we speak in a different way that's 270 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,280 actually going to match the world view of our customers 271 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,800 better? Therefore, do we need to change 272 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,240 the, you know, the cadence or the vocabulary that we use just 273 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,120 so that's more aligned with the people we want to be connecting 274 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,720 with? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 275 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,600 You obviously you put a lot of content on LinkedIn. 276 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,280 I enjoy reading there. How do you apply this discipline 277 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,600 to your own content? Because you post a lot and 278 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,560 you've got like you, you obviously weave in your your 279 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,240 passion, love and expertise in, in surfing the surface structure 280 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,200 into the discipline, the expertise around the messaging 281 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,600 strategy and the copywriting. How do you plan, focus, and 282 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,120 narrow down what you're going to write about and use these 283 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:44,320 principles? It's it's a balance of reacting 284 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:49,840 to, you know, news in the sport and outdoor and e-commerce world 285 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,800 and how my world view views that situation. 286 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,400 But majority of the time it's down to that sort of three 287 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,800 ingredient formula that we spoke about before. 288 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,800 What are the intrinsic motivations for my customers to 289 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,119 work with me or hire someone like me? 290 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,599 What is my world view and what are the obstacles that are 291 00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,839 standing in the way of them engaging with me? 292 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,880 So for me, the intrinsic motivation for someone else to 293 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,800 work with me is that they want to help their customers perform 294 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,360 and they want to be seen as a teammate or a mentor to their 295 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:35,320 customers. So, you know, I might talk 296 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,080 about, you know, surf coaching and being a mentor and helping 297 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,680 people and that, you know, feeling of reward when you 298 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,960 achieve something. That's what they can be for 299 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,480 their customers. The second thing, worldview, as 300 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,920 I said, I come from sports coaching world. 301 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,240 I worked in surf schools for 12 years and I did four years 302 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,960 managing ski schools. So what have I learnt from the 303 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:07,200 world of the outdoors and taking people for the very first surf 304 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,600 lesson? Were the actually terrified of 305 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:14,280 the sea and what analogies can I draw between my process of 306 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,960 coaching from my experience and and make that as a parallel with 307 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,040 the business world And then obstacles and hesitations, 308 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,000 obstacles or alternative solutions? 309 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,960 To me, AI obviously it seems to be everywhere on LinkedIn at the 310 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,240 moment and it's a it's a great solution for some people. 311 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,080 But the other alternatives are getting an in house generalist 312 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,440 marketer to do the copywriting as opposed to a specialist. 313 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:52,320 And can I draw out that moment of tension to expose it or 314 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:58,400 address it? For example, can I talk about AI 315 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,800 used in copywriting and how it is sort of an average sum of 316 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,440 everything that exists on the Internet unless you have really 317 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,200 good input and the most human input that you possibly can. 318 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:16,080 So that your new process on AI is a is a tool rather than a, 319 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,560 you know, a starting point and a strategy. 320 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,960 So in this instance, I would be talking about customer 321 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,480 interviews, getting voice of customer data, understanding 322 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,920 their decision making process, their emotions as the input to 323 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,120 help AI structure it. But it's not something that can 324 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,600 be replaced. So that's why you might want to 325 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,160 hire me instead of getting a generalist or AI to write 326 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,480 something. So yeah, it's a either a 327 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,240 combination of those three ingredients or or just focusing 328 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,360 on one of those is, is always what I, you know, if I'm lost 329 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,280 for what to write is one of those three things. 330 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,960 And where, how do you use AI? Because I, I use AI. 331 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,040 So, you know, I run the podcast

with Paul, we create posts. 332 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,440 I sometimes use the AI generated notes to, to help me structure 333 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,240 some of the landing page stuff. But as a, but I know some people 334 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,960 who will just let AI write content and then they'll just 335 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,160 post it. There's, there's a real MIT. 336 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,280 So what, how does it add value to you? 337 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,720 Where do you see it like reinforcing what you do? 338 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,240 Well, first drafts are notoriously awful to write, 339 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,120 whether you're a copywriter or not. 340 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,720 And so once I've gathered all that information and I've seen 341 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,040 trends and themes in what people have said, and I've got that 342 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,440 actual human language and insight and psychology that's 343 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,520 not replicable by a robot, even though they like to use logic to 344 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,960 understand emotions, doesn't always work like that because 345 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:53,360 emotions aren't necessarily logical. 346 00:20:54,720 --> 00:21:00,520 I use that data to, you know, create first drafts a lot of the 347 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,840 time. So if I have that human input, 348 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,960 it helps the output stay human, but it can speed up the process 349 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,680 of, you know, writing a landing page or planning a landing page. 350 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,360 If I say here are like 5 problems, here's the language 351 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:21,520 that people use to, to describe that. 352 00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:24,760 Here's the product and the solution and how the founder 353 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,280 sees that solution helping people or this is the new value 354 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,440 proposition we've come up with. Can you create a landing page 355 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,120 that addresses that and shows the transformation? 356 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:38,960 So using really, you know, I guess old copywriting formulas, 357 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,680 but they still work, you know, problem agitation solution, 358 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,720 desire, obstacle solution, Aida, you know, just using that as a 359 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,440 starting point just to get the first draft done. 360 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,040 And then I can go in and think, OK, well, there's a really good 361 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,000 analogy that someone used when they spoke about that problem. 362 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,760 I will embed that in the start, but I at least know what the 363 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,000 structure is. So first drafts, definitely 364 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,760 really helpful. And also finding loopholes and 365 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,400 biases. If you've written something and 366 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,000 you don't have someone sitting next to you who's totally 367 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,440 impartial to read through it, you can put it into, you know, I 368 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:25,440 use Claude most of the time and say, you know what, where are 369 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,720 the loopholes? Where might people feel 370 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,640 hesitation around this or scepticism? 371 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,560 And, and just highlight some of those moments where you just 372 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,080 need to develop your argument a bit better or add in another 373 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:43,360 proof point or, you know, make the, the problem or the, OR the 374 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:49,040 solution feel more tangible and, and emotional rather than it 375 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,640 being surface level. And talk about the outcomes to a 376 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,000 solution rather than just the benefits, which is sometimes a 377 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,800 bit surface level. So I guess those two things are 378 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,680 probably the things that took me the longest when I was, when I 379 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,040 didn't have these tools at my disposal. 380 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,280 So yeah, the first drafts and and finding, finding gaps and 381 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:19,120 holes and moments of friction, scepticism that I can then go in 382 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:22,160 and and address. That's interesting too. 383 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,440 I hadn't thought about it being used in for that, about the 384 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,760 loophole piece. I I've not that's given me 385 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,120 another option for, for how I can use it for 1st drafting 386 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:32,800 100%. I find that really useful. 387 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,280 But then you need the, it's the discipline. 388 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,280 You have to have the discipline about the the prompts that 389 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,320 you're putting in and the tool you're using to know that what 390 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,800 you get back is going to be relevant and add value to your 391 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:50,080 process. For sure it's trial and error, 392 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,520 you know I've spent few adds up all the hours I've been playing 393 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,040 around with it and I'm never going to be a prompt engineer 394 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,280 expert, but I've understood what works and what doesn't. 395 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:07,160 And even if I, it comes back with some crap, at least it 396 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,760 gives me a starting point of I do not want to write this. 397 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:18,280 And then I have an alternative to address a problem or to, you 398

00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,640 know, refine a messaging strategy. 399 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,360 It's a starting point. And the main thing for me is 400 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,120 that like blank page. And I think for everyone, 401 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:31,920 whether you're a copywriter or not, the blank page is the worst 402 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,120 moment. And at least if you can get some 403 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:39,320 that ChatGPT or Claude or whatever has created for you, 404 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,640 it's a starting point. And editing is so much easier. 405 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,960 You can scrap whole paragraphs if you want to if you just don't 406 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,600 think it works or it's not going to resonate, but it gets over 407 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,640 that hurdle of the the blank page. 408 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480 Yeah, exactly. And it's, I think, I think when 409 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,120 you get big change in industry and I know, I mean it is a 410 00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,640 massive buzzer. Everyone's obsessed. 411 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,760 It's almost like AI didn't exist before and you've had AI copy 412 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,920 generators for years. It's not a new thing. 413 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,280 It's just the scale at which and the democratisation of usage. 414 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,280 But it's, there will always be people who are naysayers who 415 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,440 refuse to use it and say it's, it's terrible, but actually the, 416 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:17,960 it's always an in between, isn't it? 417 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,880 There are genuinely valid use cases where I think it helps 418 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,000 experience, you know, smart content strategies, copyright 419 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,400 like yourself to hone their outputs. 420 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,080 Whereas if you're not good at copywriting, you're not going to 421 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,080 get a good output because you don't have the governance 422 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,600 structure to go around it. I think if you've got the right 423 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,560 input and you can understand what you're trying to achieve in 424 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,280 a piece of copy on a landing page or in an e-mail sequence, I 425 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,080 think that is the probably the most time consuming part because 426 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,200 as we said, it's human conversations. 427 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,840 You can't imagine them or assume them or predict them. 428 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,120 Then it's just a few prompts that you put in and what comes 429 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:09,800 out. It's going to be better than you 430 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,880 sitting down and writing from scratch. 431 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:17,360 So the idea of being, you know, a good copywriter, I think is 432 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:22,280 probably more mentally debilitating than it needs to 433 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,600 be. You know, good copy is something 434 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,000 that resonates with people. You don't need to write the 435 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:35,160 cleverest, quickiest content and and language and come up with 436 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,120 all these puns and analogies to be a good copywriter. 437 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,920 To be a good copywriter, I think you need to understand humans. 438 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,600 You need to have a goal set for whatever you're writing. 439 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,400 You know, I want someone to believe, think or do X by the 440 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,400 end of it. And, you know, piercing all the 441 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,240 bits together. Yeah, it helps slicken the 442 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,120 process. And maybe we can be a bit more 443 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:07,080 succinct than others, but I think you can do a good job if 444 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,120 you have really good detailed customer data without needing to 445 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:16,040 be a trained copywriter, which might be putting me out of a 446 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,040 job, but. So yeah, I find that 447 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,600 interesting. And This is why I love these 448 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,160 podcasts, because getting different perspectives helps 449 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,120 people make better decisions in the world. 450 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,680 I've generally found that I think inevitably there will be 451 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,760 talented people who aren't trained copywriters who have the 452 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,560 the ability to write really good copy, but I find them few and 453 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,360 far between. I see a lot of people who don't 454 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:41,120 understand the, the rigour and discipline around writing 455 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,720 content, who can create content, but it's it's not well 456 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,600 structured, it's got inconsistencies. 457 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,640 The tonality varies too much. So I personally, I mean, I've 458 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,480 been a long proponent that get a specialist in for these things 459 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,960 because you get execution better. 460 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,760 So I'm probably, I'm probably the other, even though I'm not, 461 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,840 I don't do these servers provide these services? 462 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,880 I'm probably the person who's who will be saying no, you need 463 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,560 somebody like like Alice in because of that understanding, 464 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,440 that structural rigour that you bring to it. 465 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:17,080 I think messaging and offers without messaging

and without a 466 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,880 clear or desirable offer copy is relevant. 467 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,560 You could be the most fantastic copywriter and if you don't have 468 00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:30,480 clear messaging that resonates, if you don't have an offer that 469 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,720 is desirable, it doesn't matter what you write about it, but 470 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:40,760 they precede, you know, the fanciest, most quippiest person 471 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:45,280 and and writer. So that's I guess what it comes 472 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:51,680 back to that that difference between a traditional copywriter 473 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:55,040 and a conversion copywriter in that we're trying to make 474 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,480 someone take an action and you could be a great copywriter, but 475 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,960 if you can't, if you don't have the messaging strategy, it's not 476 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,600 going to impact a business. It's not going to make sales, 477 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,800 it's not going to get people to subscribe to your e-mail list. 478 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,280 Copy helps, but without the messaging and without clear 479 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,960 offer, it doesn't really matter that much. 480 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,760 You've got to have those in place before you then form it 481 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:24,440 with the you know the the frameworks that are usually used 482 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,240 in copywriting and and the voice. 483 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Yeah, and this, This is why I said to you and me too, man. 484 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,680 It says I, I see you as a strategist as well as the 485 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,640 copywriter, because the strategist has that wider 486 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,720 perspective. It's that understanding that 487 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,360 that that the psychology of human behaviour is a fundamental 488 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,360 driver to success in this. Therefore, you and you have to 489 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,640 apply that into a specific audience because audiences vary 490 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,800 and there is emotional stuff in here that that drives and 491 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,600 impacts how we react. And then there is the brand side 492 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,320 and being able to marry that together to create an output, 493 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,960 the both that is both aligned with the brand values and 494 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,960 tonality and style, but nails that message in and is concise 495 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,240 and precise and drives action. That's not simple. 496 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,080 That is, that is where you get that multi, that multi 497 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:18,840 discipline brain working and. I don't know what my response to 498 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,640 that question is, sorry. I'm basically, I think I'm just 499 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,360 saying that I'm praising you. That's what I'm doing. 500 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,280 You're being humble and I'm the one you say that that actually 501 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,600 you're probably undervaluing the the that's why I always see when 502 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,160 I say copyright, I guess I mean it in that more pejorative sense 503 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,160 of that, that broader perspective I got. 504 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,080 I got a related question actually, and I always love this 505 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:47,720 one because you have take landing pages, for example, and 506 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,000 I think if you've got like a, a mono product and you've got a 507 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,200 big landing page, there is this this eternal battle between 508 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,360 short versus long copy. There are people who are ready 509 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,440 to buy and you don't want to put them off by drowning them in in 510 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,720 fact, but there are people who need that persuasion. 511 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,520 And if you have like a considered purchase product, 512 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,240 there's probably a lot of information and all those 513 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,920 potential barriers to purchase and those potential barriers to 514 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,240 action where you need to hear you were saying about giving 515 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,240 them like the evidence and the proof, etcetera. 516 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,280 Where do you stand? Like how do you decide what 517 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,880 length, how much information is required and when short where 518 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,960 when short is better than long? It's, I get asked this all the 519 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,800 time. It's as long as it needs to be, 520 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,240 which is not an answer for you. But if we go back to this idea 521 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,960 of basing everything on human psychology, there are four types 522 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,680 of decision maker. And the likelihood is you have 523 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,320 all four of these people in your audience, whether you like it or 524 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360 not. There are a few exceptions, but 525 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,960 there are methodical decision makers and humanistic decision 526 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,040 makers. There are competitive and 527 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,280 spontaneous decision makers. The competitive and spontaneous 528 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,080 are the people that make decisions quickly. 529 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,240 Competitive is, you know, it comes as a bit more internal 530 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,480 drive to, you know, wanting to do better than someone else or 531 00:32:20,120

--> 00:32:22,520 wanting that personal gain from it. 532 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:28,000 The spontaneous decision makers are just like, we'll just go 533 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,600 with this because I just, you know, they need a decision 534 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:34,040 really quickly. There are the methodical 535 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,920 decision makers, they do their background research, they look 536 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,880 at your about page, they look at your Instagram. 537 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:46,000 If you, you know they might do your Trustpilot audit of what 538 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,520 people say about you. And then the humanistic decision 539 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,640 makers connect with a brand for its personality or the founder 540 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,560 through their personality and they want to share those values. 541 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:03,360 And methodical and humanistic decision makers need that extra 542 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,600 persuasion. Whether you like it or not, the 543 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,080 likelihood is you have those people in your audience. 544 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,560 Even if you want more than anything for people to make a 545 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,200 snap decision that you are the best option. 546 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,120 Not everyone is like that and I think people who are for the 547 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,760 argument of short copy are really only speaking to those 548 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,000 quick decision makers. And what you need to try and do, 549 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:35,600 for example, if it's, you know, A1 product business is speak to 550 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,400 everyone and give those fast decision makers the opportunity 551 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,600 to buy quickly. But then give the people who 552 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,600 take longer that extra background detail information. 553 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,160 You know, at when you're going through those interviews of 554 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,280 people, all the surveys address those obstacles and hesitations 555 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,000 that are stopping someone from saying yes to you or consider 556 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,480 yourself versus the alternatives. 557 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,080 The alternative might be, you know, for me it's AI, it's an in 558 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,560 house journalist, you know, content writer maybe as opposed 559 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,920 to a copywriter, you know, do I need a conversation about what 560 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,760 the difference is to convince someone? 561 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:23,400 It's about making sure that, yeah, you're speaking to both of 562 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,120 those. So part of it comes into like 563 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:32,320 the actual design and thinking how you're structuring your page 564 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,600 so that a fast decision maker can, you know, skim read. 565 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,239 They're basically going to look at images, gifts, diagrams, 566 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,560 videos, headlines, and the methodical decision makers are 567 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,480 the ones that are going to read everything underneath it. 568 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,600 So you need to communicate why someone should trust you or buy 569 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,560 your product in the headlines as much as you do in the body copy. 570 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:04,000 So it's about speaking to both. I'm not, you know, gunning for 571 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,880 long copy all the time because sometimes, you know, you can 572 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,960 communicate and get someone over that barrier in a very short 573 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,880 space of time. But you you don't know what the 574 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,240 answer is until you speak to people and understand what that 575 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:22,320 decision making process is. Yeah, I'm a big fan of it's, 576 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,560 it's in line with all you're saying about applying customer 577 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,440 mental models, which is that the whole process of what, who's 578 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,480 coming to the page? What are they, what are their 579 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,280 needs? What are they like for the 580 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,000 questions they need answering? What objections do they have and 581 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,920 what, what are the reasons why they would exit? 582 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,040 And then looking at how you structure and prioritise content 583 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,400 because you can quickly do right. 584 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,160 We really need some really nice, you know, bullet point US. 585 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,040 PS we need a video and it's really, really nice way of 586 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,520 tackling that. And then you can, you can 587 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,400 quickly work out how complex that set of requirements is. 588 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,600 So there's a, there's a big, big drive in e-commerce around 589 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,200 personalisation. And for a lot of sites, people 590 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,920 talk about content personalisation, but very few 591 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,120 actually do it. I'm intrigued to know where what 592 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,320 you're seeing and what you think the role of personalized content 593 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,800 can be on whether it's an e-commerce site, non e-commerce 594 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,480 site. And are you, are you seeing 595 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,520 anyone who are doing this well where actually the, the the copy 596 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,000 and the content that's been shown to people is varied based 597 00:36:26,000

--> 00:36:29,200 on who the customer is or what customer segment they're from? 598 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:36,720 So in terms of that personalisation, the way that I 599 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:42,520 would usually approach it is it when I'm reviewing customer 600 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,120 interviews, transcripts, surveys, there's always going to 601 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,160 be certain themes that we see in the responses, whether it's 602 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,320 themes and obstacles, themes in motivations and drivers. 603 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,600 And that's how I like to categorise those different 604 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,920 sections. So you're almost creating like 605 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,280 new Icps. And so I think that really is 606 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:09,680 one of the most effective ways of personalizing journeys for 607 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,440 people in understanding the different decision making 608 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,040 processes that different people have, even if they're using the 609 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,680 same product in the end. So in terms of brands that are 610 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:29,160 doing this well, there's two that I've, I'm on their e-mail 611 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,800 list. I sign up to a lot of e-mail 612 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,640 lists to try and unpick what people are doing and to see, you 613 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,720 know, what the content is coming towards me and is it actually 614 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:41,480 going to resonate based on the actions that I've taken already. 615 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,280 And there are two in particular that really resonated with me 616 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,960 and I thought they did a really great job. 617 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,920 And one of them is called 8 hours and they are a supplements 618 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,320 company that help people improve their sleep. 619 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:02,520 And it was really in tune with intrinsic motivations And that 620 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,960 at least the first few emails that I've got from them, I've 621 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,240 probably been on their emails e-mail list a couple of weeks 622 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:14,560 and they talk about what my intrinsic motivation to like, 623 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,000 want good sleep and it's around, you know, business and be able 624 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,880 to perform and having the energy after work to, you know, go 625 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,000 outside and go for a surf. The other is a brand called 626 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:32,000 Freaks of Nature. And anyone in who knows anything 627 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,840 about surfing knows who Kelly Slater is. 628 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,400 He's won the world title 11 times. 629 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:43,080 And the tagline for his brand is fuck the gym, go outside. 630 00:38:43,720 -->

00:38:49,120 And that is like my life's mantra, but on but in, you know, 631 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,800 in various headlines that they've got in their emails, 632 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,040 they are so great at aligning with their customers desires 633 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,440 beyond the so it's a sun cream brand. 634 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,120 Sorry, I didn't mention that they're sun cream brand. 635 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,520 And so many sun cream brands talk about how it's not sticky 636 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,880 and the, you know, SPF factor and where it's made in its 637 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,200 natural minerals. Now, before freaks of nature 638 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:21,000 talk about any of that, they talk about specifically not 639 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,240 wanting to cut a run short for fear of burning or the memory of 640 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:29,520 an amazing surf, you know, not wanting to be overridden by the 641 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,440 discomfort of sunburn. And they are connecting to my 642 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,440 intrinsic motivations so well, they really stood out to me. 643 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:43,040 And they're worth going to have a look at because, yeah, that 644 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,680 that some of their marketing is really fun. 645 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,720 Yes, yeah. I like that nice, nice 646 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:52,200 provocative strap line as well. That's what you need is people 647 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,360 are going to remember it, right? That's the key thing to and 648 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,880 there's the good copyright in itself interest. 649 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,640 I'm not I'm not heard of eight hours before. 650 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,520 There's somebody who who regularly has moments where I 651 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,560 don't get enough sleep. Now that you've just now that 652 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,800 you've made me find another site where I'm going to have to spend 653 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,760 money on. So I hold you personally 654 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,840 responsible for that. Guess what? 655 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,320 I've followed a question I've got for you. 656 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,800 Is how do you see, like, how do you see content copy strategy 657 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,560 evolving in 2025? Is it changing? 658 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,160 Do people need to think about things fundamentally 659 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,480 differently? Or is it just about putting the 660 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,360 basics in place and doing things properly? 661 00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:40,560 It's a really good question. I think from our maybe from our 662 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,760 perspective, I think the thing we're going to see is a bigger 663 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:50,000 chasm opening up between brands that are putting out really 664 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,640 customer centric emotionally intelligent copy versus the 665 00:40:54,640 --> 00:41:00,280 surface level generic custom feature slash benefit driven 666 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,160 copy. I think because people are 667 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,520 getting more confident using AI, that human side and that human 668 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,320 input I think is going to get overlooked by people that feel 669 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,560 like they need to output content very quickly. 670 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,240 And so I think the main thing is that that difference in that 671 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:26,440 that contrast is going to become more apparent between brands 672 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,760 that are really focusing on intrinsic motivations of their 673 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:37,200 customers versus those that have ideal client profiles that they 674 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:41,080 built in a silo. Not having spoken to anyone and 675 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,840 assuming what people think they think people want and using that 676 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,000 as their input. That is not going to align. 677 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,080 You know, we spoke at the at the start about connecting with 678 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,120 customers across different platforms. 679 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,800 And I think that's really going to be the the main difference 680 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,480 that we see in the content. And there's a psychological 681 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,440 phenomena that I love and am currently obsessed with called 682 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:09,800 constral level theory. And essentially what it is is 683 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,680 that if I can imagine something with detail, I can feel really 684 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,200 close to it. So if we're thinking about the 685 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,680 distance between you and a product, so for example, me and 686 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,560 Freaks of Nature Sunscreen, if they can create an image in my 687 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,600 head of what it's like to use that product and how my emotions 688 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,800 are involved in that experience. You know, that psychological 689 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:38,000 distance is shortened between me and using the product because I 690 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,160 feel close to that experience. And this is where specificity is 691 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,240 so important. Without that specificity, if I 692 00:42:46,240 --> 00:42:52,680 generalize about sunscreen that is not, you know, sticky and it, 693 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,160 it's a bit more of an abstract benefit and it's not really 694 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,920 personalized to me, that psychological distance is 695 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,760 increased. So the distance between me and 696 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,680 using the sun cream is further

away. 697 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:10,360 I don't feel that urgency to get, you know, move towards 698 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,560 that. I don't, I'm not driven to take 699 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:17,240 an action now, I might still love the brand, but I'm not 700 00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:22,600 driven to make a decision there and then or or feel a bit more 701 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,120 committed because I I'm eager to have that experience. 702 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:33,280 And yeah, so if you're, if you are using Trac GBT or or Claude 703 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,720 or whatever LLM you're using, be really careful that you're not 704 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:42,440 generalizing. Ask Claude or your LLM to be 705 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,640 really specific and add specificity. 706 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,400 Create that image in the head of your customer, what it feels 707 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:53,240 like to use the product, create, you know, paint that picture of 708 00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:56,600 of them in that experience. And I think this is something 709 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,280 that brands either going to do really well or not. 710 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,520 And I'm, I'm seeing it more and more now, the more, the more 711 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,720 emails lists that I signed up for. 712 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:12,600 That's a real stark contrast in, you know, how they are 713 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,040 integrating that that human psychology and our innate desire 714 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,840 to be part of an experience and to feel sorting. 715 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,760 I think that's probably going to be the biggest difference that 716 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,400 we see in the next 12 months. Yeah, it's in and that's really 717 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,400 interesting actually, because there's a couple of brands over 718 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,920 the years, I, I, I've used examples that that are probably 719 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,320 quite early on to stuff like this. 720 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:40,160 So there's Palace Skateboards, I think really good in their copy 721 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,640 and their product pages of of building an emotional resonance 722 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,720 with the audience because they they don't talk about the 723 00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:48,480 product. They just, it's just, it's like 724 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,720 basically a load of stoners at home just having a lot of fun 725 00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:53,920 with each other, which is perfect for the audience. 726 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,800 Not me. It's stereotyped skaters at all, 727 00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,640 having B1 myself, but it's there. 728 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,000 There are different at different executions and I think the 729 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,160 that's psychological principles. Lovely actually, because it's 730 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,680 for me, it's similar to how how retail space has done it. 731 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,200 So there was a brilliant study well back about supermarkets and 732 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,080 the music they played in the wine section and how that 733 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,960 created an emotional connection with a particular type of wine 734 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:19,440 in a particular type of scenario. 735 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,960 Like, you know, particular music that would then make people 736 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,800 think of Spanish wines and, and that influencing people's 737 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,920 purchase. Because then they were like, Oh, 738 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,720 Archie, I feel like I should be out on on the veranda somewhere 739 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,560 in southern Spain having a nice Riocca for the evening. 740 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,840 And it's amazing, isn't it, how you can reframe perceptions? 741 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:41,600 Yeah, I love that. I'm going to. 742 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,880 Next time I go to the wine section, I'm going to keep my 743 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,000 ears open, see what they're playing at me. 744 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,720 Just just go, just go in and with a with your like Airpods in 745 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,440 with a specific type of music and then you see what wine you 746 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,440 come out with. Some little at home experiments 747 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,640 I'm going to be doing over the next week. 748 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,480 Excellent look. I've really enjoyed this and if 749 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,160 anybody listening wants to like probe further on on how you can 750 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,240 help them or even looking for some pointers on where they 751 00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:15,200 might be going wrong, how do they reach out? 752 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,480 Yeah, LinkedIn is the best place, really. 753 00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:23,800 That's where I put out the most content and I spend probably 754 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,760 more time than I should there. But yeah, that's probably the 755 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,280 best place if you're looking for someone to help you find your 756 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,640 big ideas, to unpick what those intrinsic motivations of your 757 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,480 customers are and find that perfect blend with your brand's 758 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,440 worldview to create a message that's going to that's going to 759 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,720 resonate and and drive people to take action. 760 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,160 Wonderful. Thanks for joining us and for 761 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,320 all you listen. I hope you found it as 762 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,160 interesting. I have and Alice's contact 763 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,920 details are on the landing page. Do reach out if you've got a 764 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,560 project or know somebody would benefit from an experienced 765 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:56,880 hands. Cheers. 766 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,960 James. You're listening to the Inside 767 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:02,680 Commerce podcast, hosted by experienced consultants James 768 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,800 Gerd and Paul Rogers. Inside Commerce is your fast 769 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,160 tracked digital knowledge, featuring interviews with 770 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,920 leading e-commerce retailers, industry thought leads and the 771 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,680 C-Suite of key tech companies to explore the latest digital 772 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,520 strategy, customer experience and tech. 773 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,120 Discover what the latest trends really mean and get practical 774 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,360 advice based on the experience to help fine tune your 775 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:22,840 e-commerce strategy and tech stack. 776 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,440 Follow us on LinkedIn and reach out to James and Paul if you'd 777 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,120 like to discuss an e-commerce project. 778 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,200 We hope you enjoy the latest episode.