Full Transcript for Though Leadership Interview: From Scientific Breakthrough to Scalable Magnet Manufacturing

are the winners of IRI's 2026 Award for Scientific Achievement. 00:02:22.317 --> 00:02:28.035 So really excited to be sharing the journey that you all had and the work that you all put into that. 00:02:28.412 --> 00:02:33.097 But I want to start with the science first and, you know, help me understand 00:02:33.097 --> 00:02:36.266 how all this works. So what is iron nitride? 00:02:36.679 --> 00:02:40.417 And, you know, what are the applications that you all are working with? Okay. 00:02:41.101 --> 00:02:45.733 So starting with the material, you know, a magnetic compound is usually based 00:02:45.733 --> 00:02:48.933 on a particular crystal, particular composition. 00:02:49.281 --> 00:02:54.018 So, you know, you know, an electrical steel is based on a crystal of iron and silicon. 00:02:54.441 --> 00:02:58.183 A rare earth permanent magnet is based on a crystal of neodymium, iron, and boron. 00:02:58.183 --> 00:03:03.763 Typically, iron nitride is a crystal structure that was first observed all the 00:03:03.763 --> 00:03:10.459 way back in 1950 as some work done on, you know, using nitrogen to harden steel, structural steel. 00:03:10.928 --> 00:03:13.023 At the University of Cambridge in the UK. 00:03:14.223 --> 00:03:20.383 It works similarly as carbon does. But what came out of that was this recognition 00:03:20.383 --> 00:03:25.273 of this unique ordered structure where the nitrogen atoms wind up in certain 00:03:25.273 --> 00:03:27.045 positions in the crystal structure that 00:03:27.475 --> 00:03:29.343 doesn't exist in the iron carbon system. 00:03:29.343 --> 00:03:33.297 And it remained kind of a laboratory curiosity for a few decades. 00:03:33.732 --> 00:03:39.523 Then in the 70s, as the deposition and, you know, thin film technology advanced 00:03:39.523 --> 00:03:42.235 and the characterization methods advanced along with it, 00:03:42.738 --> 00:03:46.503 came the realization and the measurement that this material might have a much 00:03:46.503 --> 00:03:51.868 higher magnetization than any other compound that was known at room temperature. 00:03:52.227 --> 00:03:56.793 And larger than the, you know, the physics theories at the time could explain 00:03:56.793 --> 00:03:59.910 through, you know, what was understood about electronic structure in those days. 00:04:00.387 --> 00:04:04.903 But it wasn't, you know, a slam dunk because it's difficult to make and it's 00:04:04.903 --> 00:04:06.558 difficult to measure accurately. 00:04:06.940 --> 00:04:11.323 So it remained kind of a curiosity for a couple. And then the interest picked 00:04:11.323 --> 00:04:15.706 up with it again in the 90s as a potential magnetic recording material. 00:04:16.309 --> 00:04:20.903 But by then it still wasn't, you know, there was as much evidence for as against 00:04:20.903 --> 00:04:22.655 its unique set of properties. 00:04:24.358 --> 00:04:27.964 At that time, the founder of Nairon, Zhang Peng Wang, was a postdoc, 00:04:27.964 --> 00:04:31.981 and he had made

this material his passion project. 00:04:33.074 --> 00:04:37.123 He worked on it when he became a professor at the University of Minnesota in 2002. 00:04:37.617 --> 00:04:41.762 Every opportunity he had to work on this material, he took. 00:04:42.203 --> 00:04:47.144 Then in 2010, as you may recall, there was a substantial restriction in the 00:04:47.144 --> 00:04:52.262 availability or perceived availability of rare earth elements coming out of Asia, out of China. 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:56.824 And so that motivated the search for other alternatives to rare earth magnets. 00:04:57.282 --> 00:05:03.764 And a compound that could be used to build a magnet has to meet certain requirements. 00:05:03.764 --> 00:05:05.709 One of them, it has to have a high magnetization. 00:05:06.185 --> 00:05:12.474 And this iron nitride compound has about 50% higher magnetization than the neodymium iron compound. 00:05:12.946 --> 00:05:17.374 It has to have a non-cubic crystal structure. So what that means is that every 00:05:17.374 --> 00:05:21.351 little crystal is basically a tiny little permanent magnet with a north and a south pole. 00:05:22.077 --> 00:05:26.134 And so if you can build those up into a big assembly of those crystal unit cells, 00:05:26.134 --> 00:05:27.331 then you can get a big magnet. 00:05:27.749 --> 00:05:30.094 And iron nitride met that requirement. 00:05:30.572 --> 00:05:34.834 And then the third is that it has to have enough temperature stability to work 00:05:34.834 --> 00:05:36.541 over the operating temperature range. 00:05:37.063 --> 00:05:41.494 And iron nitrite has that too. It's different than neodymium in that it doesn't 00:05:41.494 --> 00:05:45.376 have the typical Curie temperature, if folks are familiar with that. 00:05:45.765 --> 00:05:50.524 It has a phase transition temperature, but over the range of operating temperatures 00:05:50.524 --> 00:05:54.014 for most applications, up to 150, 180 degrees C. 00:05:54.763 --> 00:06:01.034 It actually has less change of its magnetic performance than a rare earth compound 00:06:01.034 --> 00:06:02.628 like neodymium iron boron might. 00:06:03.006 --> 00:06:05.438 And that's, again, due to the unique crystal structure. 00:06:06.117 --> 00:06:11.798 And so Professor Wong was awarded a contract by the RPE agency at that time to look at this. 00:06:12.747 --> 00:06:17.785 Compound in particular. And he did, you know, with those resources, very careful 00:06:18.145 --> 00:06:23.446 sample preparation, very careful measurements with things like neutron techniques 00:06:23.446 --> 00:06:28.754 at the national lab that could actually probe the magnetic structure at the atomic scale. 00:06:29.323 --> 00:06:32.655 And then also made contributions to the electronic theory that, 00:06:33.061 --> 00:06:38.266 and came up with a plausible explanation for how this material could have this 00:06:38.266 --> 00:06:39.964 enhanced magnification. 00:06:40.585 --> 00:06:43.776 So, you know, those factors came together. And then in 2013, 00:06:43.776 --> 00:06:47.903 actually, as of actually tomorrow will be Niron's birthday, 13th birthday. 00:06:48.635 --> 00:06:52.636 Thank you. Niron was founded. And it was the only project from that group of 00:06:52.636 --> 00:06:56.151 RP funding that was founded as a startup with venture capital. 00:06:56.899 --> 00:07:02.436 So the reason why it was funded is because of its usefulness in applications. 00:07:02.436 --> 00:07:07.851 Primarily, its very high saturation magnetization and its very stable temperature 00:07:08.171 --> 00:07:14.206 performance makes it possible to use iron nitride in applications that. 00:07:15.192 --> 00:07:19.962 Typically require a high performance magnet like a rare earth magnet, 00:07:20.368 --> 00:07:24.846 because that magnetization is what gives you the torque or the power that a 00:07:24.846 --> 00:07:28.281 motor can provide or that a generator can produce. 00:07:28.642 --> 00:07:34.746 We need that high concentration of magnetic field per unit volume or per unit 00:07:34.746 --> 00:07:36.677 kilogram in order to make a competitive motor. 00:07:37.122 --> 00:07:40.976 And motors in electric vehicles have been optimized over the last 40 years to 00:07:40.976 --> 00:07:44.315 extract as much torque as they can from rare earth magnets. 00:07:46.267 --> 00:07:50.912 So, there are a number of challenges. One is, can you make this material at scale economically? 00:07:51.249 --> 00:07:55.167 We have a built-in advantage because it's only based on iron and nitrogen, 00:07:55.167 --> 00:07:57.908 which are globally abundant materials. 00:07:58.349 --> 00:08:02.501 But the manufacturing is the hard part, and that's what NIRN has solved. 00:08:02.943 --> 00:08:06.722 And then there's the application, you know, can you use this magnet in a motor 00:08:07.134 --> 00:08:09.369 the same way as you use a rare earth magnet? 00:08:09.798 --> 00:08:13.827 And the reality is, like most new materials, it's not an exact drop-in replacement. 00:08:14.169 --> 00:08:19.152 So one has to, you know, adjust the motor design to be able to use it. 00:08:19.523 --> 00:08:22.977 And so there are some applications where we're an easier fit than others, 00:08:22.977 --> 00:08:27.384 you know, stationary motors or things like speakers, which are a kind of motor, 00:08:27.750 --> 00:08:30.575 are pretty much, you know, very minimal amounts of changes. 00:08:30.947 --> 00:08:35.417 For other types of motors, particularly ones that operate over a wide speed 00:08:35.417 --> 00:08:40.537 range, you have to do a more complete redesign of the motor, 00:08:40.537 --> 00:08:45.750 including the control methods that are used to control the motor at speed. 00:08:46.232 --> 00:08:52.987 And here is where the one salient difference between iron nitride and rare earth 00:08:52.987 --> 00:08:58.767 magnets comes into focus, is that the material has, iron nitride has what's known as. 00:09:00.168 --> 00:09:05.867 The

coercivity or the resistance to demagnization lower than that of rare earth magnets. 00:09:05.867 --> 00:09:08.397 And that's just an intrinsic performance difference. 00:09:08.853 --> 00:09:13.787 So in many applications, if you use it exactly the same way as a neomagnet was 00:09:13.787 --> 00:09:15.658 used, you would demagnetize the magnet. 00:09:16.528 --> 00:09:21.869 But you can also re-magnetize a lower co-versivity magnet with less current 00:09:21.869 --> 00:09:26.267 or magnetic field than you would be required to de-magnetize it. 00:09:26.766 --> 00:09:32.779 And in today's technology with modern power electronics, you can actually produce 00:09:32.779 --> 00:09:38.269 enough current within the motor to selectively magnetize and de-magnetize the 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:41.396 magnet to meet the operating point of the motor. 00:09:41.762 --> 00:09:45.849 And so using that scheme, you can actually get better efficiency because you 00:09:45.849 --> 00:09:50.115 don't have to provide a constant flux weakening field like you might with a rare earth magnet. 00:09:50.523 --> 00:09:54.429 You can just set the magnet to operate where you want it to operate. 00:09:54.429 --> 00:09:58.679 And if you have a fault condition, you can turn it off, which you can't easily 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:00.005 do with a rare earth magnet. 00:10:01.295 --> 00:10:07.855 Well, that's super cool. So this is a great technology that you developed at 00:10:07.855 --> 00:10:10.650 a university or was developed at a university. 00:10:11.532 --> 00:10:18.405 And how did you go about all of the hard work of getting that technology outside 00:10:18.405 --> 00:10:25.685 the university into the marketplace and in serving customers and doing all this? 00:10:25.685 --> 00:10:30.286 Because it could be so hard to get those ideas actually commercialized. 00:10:30.651 --> 00:10:35.265 That's right. There's the valley of death as it's often referred to. 00:10:35.718 --> 00:10:37.791 How we climbed out of that. 00:10:38.865 --> 00:10:44.743 We did receive funding from venture capital starting in 2013 and 2017. 00:10:45.825 --> 00:10:51.595 For really the first five years of the company, our focus was looking at the 00:10:51.595 --> 00:10:57.595 manufacturing methods that the university had done the initial work on, the exploratory work. 00:10:58.106 --> 00:11:02.338 And finding the one that would be scaled most economically. 00:11:02.957 --> 00:11:08.645 And that turned out to be an approach where we base our magnet on a building 00:11:08.645 --> 00:11:15.140 block that's in the form of a nanoparticle, about a 25 nanometer single crystal of iron nitride. 00:11:16.115 --> 00:11:20.905 Now, it's a significant materials engineering challenge to build up bulk material 00:11:20.905 --> 00:11:22.168 from individual particles. 00:11:22.667 --> 00:11:26.025 So the way we did it, you know, is we, you know, set our, you know, 00:11:26.025 --> 00:11:30.215 technology milestones based upon the

resources, you know, the funding and, 00:11:30.215 --> 00:11:32.371 you know, the, you know, the people that we had. 00:11:32.783 --> 00:11:37.025 I mean, when I joined in 2018, we had 12 people. We could make maybe a few hundred 00:11:37.025 --> 00:11:40.127 milligrams of the material, so we couldn't make a full magnet. 00:11:40.638 --> 00:11:45.015 But what we could do is that we could demonstrate that we could produce this 00:11:45.015 --> 00:11:48.020 particular phase of iron nitride to sufficient purity. 00:11:48.484 --> 00:11:53.862 We could verify at the data particle scale that it had the properties that we wanted. 00:11:54.230 --> 00:11:58.145 And then we could also demonstrate at the laboratory bench scale the processing 00:11:58.145 --> 00:11:59.775 methods that we could use to scale it up. 00:12:00.697 --> 00:12:06.278 And so that progress allowed us to get further rounds of venture funding to 00:12:06.278 --> 00:12:09.941 culminate in a demonstration of our first bulk magnet. 00:12:10.321 --> 00:12:16.188 When I say bulk, it was about a six millimeter diameter by one millimeter thick disc in late 2023. 00:12:16.601 --> 00:12:21.898 And that was built up from aligned, compacted nanoparticles made by the process 00:12:21.898 --> 00:12:23.113 that we're scaling up today. 00:12:23.560 --> 00:12:27.418 So to do it, we really had to focus on. 00:12:28.538 --> 00:12:33.578 A technology development path that was calibrated to the amount of resources, 00:12:33.578 --> 00:12:36.642 but also met milestones that could demonstrate to, 00:12:37.136 --> 00:12:42.470 first venture investors, then strategic investors, that the technology was credible 00:12:42.790 --> 00:12:48.646 and that we were systematically retiring risk that would make the investment feasible at that stage. 00:12:49.174 --> 00:12:53.478 I have to mention that government funding was also a key part of this all the 00:12:53.478 --> 00:12:55.104 way back from the initial ARPA-E grant. 00:12:55.603 --> 00:13:01.348 We've also received R&D grants from the Defense Logistics Agency for looking 00:13:01.348 --> 00:13:04.391 at this material for national security applications. 00:13:04.838 --> 00:13:09.670 And then in 2023, we were awarded what's known as an ARPA-E scale-up grant. 00:13:10.204 --> 00:13:15.868 And this was a program that ARPA-E has to provide further capital to previous 00:13:15.868 --> 00:13:22.618 awardees of ARPE programs to be able to put in the equipment and the facilities 00:13:22.618 --> 00:13:24.139 needed to produce it at scale. 00:13:24.764 --> 00:13:30.438 And so we commenced that grant. And having that grant is very valuable because 00:13:30.438 --> 00:13:34.158 it's, from an investment term, it's non-dilutive equity. 00:13:34.158 --> 00:13:39.978 So it makes it an easier sell, I guess, if you will, to private investors that 00:13:39.978 --> 00:13:43.120 are looking to purchase a stake in the company to provide their capital. 00:13:43.527 --> 00:13:46.948 And

that's what we've used to build out the facility that I'm sitting in today 00:13:46.948 --> 00:13:50.618 in Minneapolis. We have up to about 190 employees today. 00:13:51.854 --> 00:13:56.778 Just to say in parallel, we work with our customers, and some of our strategic 00:13:56.778 --> 00:14:04.708 investors will also be our customers someday, to learn how to use iron nitride in their systems. 00:14:04.708 --> 00:14:09.678 And we've done a set number of technology demonstrations, both with magnets, 00:14:09.678 --> 00:14:15.612 but then also with systems, speakers, motors, and the like, using the magnets. 00:14:16.071 --> 00:14:20.940 And so that also progressively retires the risk of using this material. 00:14:21.362 --> 00:14:26.063 And it starts us on the road to being qualified as a supplier to these customers. 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:32.187 And it also gives us the feedback that we need as we further develop the material's properties. 00:14:32.646 --> 00:14:35.738 We're really kind of at the beginning of the S-curve of developing this material. 00:14:36.573 --> 00:14:41.448 We haven't yet accessed all of the intrinsic performance that's possible with iron nitride. 00:14:41.448 --> 00:14:46.656 But the level that we're at has been able to justify the capital we've raised 00:14:46.791 --> 00:14:49.598 for this pilot plant and also for our first manufacturing plant, 00:14:49.598 --> 00:14:52.326 which will go into production sometime late next year. 00:14:53.805 --> 00:14:57.598 Okay. So you were talking about a lot of different partners here. 00:14:57.598 --> 00:15:01.688 You've got the university, you've got government, you've got private partners. 00:15:01.688 --> 00:15:07.308 How did you balance dealing with all of them and trying to make everybody happy? 00:15:08.225 --> 00:15:08.502 Well. 00:15:10.814 --> 00:15:14.802 You know, it's tough to make everybody happy, right? All at the same time, right? 00:15:15.439 --> 00:15:21.672 And so, you know, we have the benefit of having a very involved and active board. 00:15:21.672 --> 00:15:25.146 So our early technology investors, you know, their lead partner, 00:15:25.448 --> 00:15:28.702 lead investors, Anzu Partners, I mean, they funded, you know, 00:15:28.702 --> 00:15:33.672 their investment thesis for their funds was, you know, commercializing hard technology. 00:15:33.672 --> 00:15:39.532 So other than typically software and such, that has had the risk reduced by, 00:15:39.532 --> 00:15:41.540 you know, government funding. So we fit that mold. 00:15:42.028 --> 00:15:46.622 And then, you know, they provided early on a lot of the business services that 00:15:46.622 --> 00:15:49.589 you can't really expect a 12-person startup to do. 00:15:50.031 --> 00:15:54.569 And that was a service that they, you know, would provide to their portfolio companies up to a point. 00:15:54.981 --> 00:15:58.452 So that was very helpful. And so that included things like, you know, 00:15:58.452 --> 00:16:02.782 product development, market studies, you know, mundane things, 00:16:02.782 --> 00:16:05.901 not mundane, but important things like HR that you need, right? 00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:10.892 And so that was very helpful because that let us focus on, you know, 00:16:10.892 --> 00:16:14.344 solving the hard technology programs and problems that were in front of us. 00:16:14.611 --> 00:16:19.008 As we've matured, we've brought most of those business services in house. 00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:24.472 And so we have people whose job it is now to, to manage the competing priorities 00:16:24.472 --> 00:16:26.248 of the, you know, the various stakeholders. 00:16:26.642 --> 00:16:30.898 And it's, you know, it's a, you know, it's a full-time job, right? And so we, you know. 00:16:31.765 --> 00:16:39.186 Tend to try to sequence things so it's matched to the level of technology maturity of the process. 00:16:39.593 --> 00:16:45.638 So, you know, our earlier efforts were on audio and applications because that was the best fit. 00:16:46.102 --> 00:16:49.584 You know, now we're moving into motor applications, but we started talking to 00:16:49.584 --> 00:16:53.194 motor, you know, customers, you know, several years ago and have worked with 00:16:53.194 --> 00:16:56.549 them and have partnered with them and projects like, 00:16:57.048 --> 00:17:02.172 the Department of Energy, the AMMTO office has a project, 00:17:02.682 --> 00:17:05.964 where we're working with Stellantis, also one of our investors, 00:17:05.964 --> 00:17:11.294 to demonstrate this type of motor, this variable flux motor that can take advantage 00:17:11.294 --> 00:17:14.418 of iron nitrides, you know, particular balance of properties. 00:17:15.214 --> 00:17:18.754 So, you know, it's something that you have to do constantly. 00:17:19.314 --> 00:17:25.734 It is harder as You have a smaller team, but if you're successful, 00:17:25.734 --> 00:17:31.544 you can build out the infrastructure needed to manage those types of investors 00:17:31.544 --> 00:17:32.647 and customer relationships. 00:17:34.195 --> 00:17:39.007 So you've already alluded to this with the new facility you all are rolling out next year. 00:17:39.353 --> 00:17:42.864 How have you been scaling up? That's one of the biggest challenges that we see 00:17:42.864 --> 00:17:45.378 with these young companies. How are you? 00:17:46.451 --> 00:17:50.862 Well, I mean, it sounds trite, but, you know, first you need money. 00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:55.064 So, you know, you need, you know, got to buy, you know, build buildings or buy 00:17:55.064 --> 00:17:56.341 buildings, buy equipment. 00:17:56.881 --> 00:18:01.174 And so, you know, the way you get that funding is that you have to have a, 00:18:01.174 --> 00:18:04.507 you know, a solid business plan with an investable, you know, a company. 00:18:05.238 --> 00:18:09.834 And, you know, we've worked very hard to be able to, you know, 00:18:09.834 --> 00:18:14.144 close that business plan and, you know,

demonstrate to our customers and our 00:18:14.144 --> 00:18:15.912 investors, I should say, that this is, 00:18:16.783 --> 00:18:21.479 worth an investment of the scale that is beyond, you know, traditional venture capital. 00:18:22.952 --> 00:18:26.552 Public-private partnership has been extremely important in that. 00:18:26.941 --> 00:18:31.799 We're taking advantage of the public funding mechanisms that are available from 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.888 the Department of Energy and from the Department of War. 00:18:35.306 --> 00:18:39.819 We have some of our investors that have been with us from the beginning have 00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:44.130 been able to step up and provide some large fraction of that funding. 00:18:44.235 --> 00:18:48.781 And then we're continuing to raise the equity needed to build all phases of the plan. 00:18:49.537 --> 00:18:52.283 So it's a, you know, it's a, you know. 00:18:54.601 --> 00:18:59.139 I guess it's a race almost where you have to have a lot of things running in parallel. 00:18:59.545 --> 00:19:03.231 And you have to make certain that you don't commit to a schedule that is outside 00:19:03.231 --> 00:19:04.782 your ability to raise funds for. 00:19:05.148 --> 00:19:10.441 And so you have phased development plans and you have to work with what's called 00:19:10.441 --> 00:19:16.853 an ERP, basically a contractor that actually will build and kit out the plant. 00:19:17.276 --> 00:19:20.101 You have to work with the equipment manufacturers. 00:19:20.657 --> 00:19:25.331 To the greatest extent possible, we've selected capital equipment that can be 00:19:25.331 --> 00:19:30.079 repurposed from other types of operations, but there's always some customization we have to do. 00:19:30.694 --> 00:19:35.821 And a large part of what we do here at the pilot plant is to try to find the 00:19:35.821 --> 00:19:39.921 smallest version of that equipment that we can test and build here and get that 00:19:39.921 --> 00:19:44.097 performance data so that the larger equipment can be engineered properly. 00:19:44.527 --> 00:19:48.601 So, you know, it's, you know, it's many irons in the fire. And so, 00:19:48.601 --> 00:19:51.998 you know, it is, you know, it is still, you know, a hard job. 00:19:52.387 --> 00:19:57.518 But we've been very fortunate in the people that we've been able to retain and attract to Nairon. 00:19:57.929 --> 00:20:01.441 And we have a very, you know, appealing story. You know, we're developing a 00:20:01.441 --> 00:20:05.641 new material from scratch and solving a need that, you know, 00:20:05.641 --> 00:20:07.081 the country and the world has. 00:20:07.423 --> 00:20:12.061 So, we've been very fortunate to attract the talent, and we also benefit from 00:20:12.061 --> 00:20:14.881 the depth of talent that's available in Minnesota. 00:20:14.881 --> 00:20:19.681 I mean, Minneapolis is the home to a large number of high technology companies, 00:20:19.681 --> 00:20:23.671 so there's a significant infrastructure with those companies and the universities 00:20:23.671 --> 00:20:25.418 already in place that we can draw upon. 00:20:26.521 --> 00:20:29.534 And the history with the Iron Range up north as well. Absolutely. 00:20:30.921 --> 00:20:34.718 So, tell us about the work that you guys are doing at the pilot plant. 00:20:35.889 --> 00:20:39.209 So we put together an end-to-end process, right? 00:20:39.209 --> 00:20:46.589 So our process is vertically integrated in the sense that we manufacture the 00:20:46.589 --> 00:20:51.409 precursor nanoparticles that are used to make iron nitride. Those precursors 00:20:51.409 --> 00:20:53.449 are iron oxide nanoparticles. 00:20:53.829 --> 00:20:58.293 And at that stage, we control the size and the shape of the particles. 00:20:58.691 --> 00:21:04.739 And then we convert those particles into iron nitride using an ammonia nitriding 00:21:04.739 --> 00:21:09.212 process that's not unlike what's used in other metallurgical processes. 00:21:09.578 --> 00:21:12.904 The difference is that nanoparticles that are discrete. 00:21:13.189 --> 00:21:17.699 And so we use pretty straightforward fluidized bed technology that's used for 00:21:17.699 --> 00:21:20.580 other types of technology to do that conversion. 00:21:21.004 --> 00:21:25.859 So we have the iron oxide in the fluidized bed. We flow the ammonia and other 00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:29.999 gases through it to complete that transformation. And that's what gives us the 00:21:29.999 --> 00:21:32.966 very high purity of the phase that we want. 00:21:33.570 --> 00:21:37.027 Once we have those particles, they're not yet ready to put into a magnet, 00:21:37.464 --> 00:21:43.009 and we have to manipulate them in a way that the powder that comes out, 00:21:43.009 --> 00:21:45.942 the particles within the powder are all magnetically aligned. 00:21:46.337 --> 00:21:50.239 And so that means that if every nanoparticle is a tiny little permanent magnet 00:21:50.239 --> 00:21:55.339 with a north and a south pole, that within that bulk particle where there could 00:21:55.339 --> 00:21:56.732 be trillions of nanoparticles, 00:21:57.284 --> 00:22:01.159 to the greatest extent possible, we make sure that all the particles within 00:22:01.159 --> 00:22:04.010 those bulk particle agglomerates are aligned. 00:22:04.621 --> 00:22:09.261 And so what that means is that when you take that powder and put it in a press 00:22:09.546 --> 00:22:15.699 cavity and apply a magnetic field, then the powder particles jump up in a line parallel to that field. 00:22:15.699 --> 00:22:20.479 And that's key because then we take the ram of the press and we compact those 00:22:20.479 --> 00:22:23.899 particles into the final shape of our magnet. 00:22:24.237 --> 00:22:27.659 And, you know, the degree to which we can control that. 00:22:28.476 --> 00:22:33.030 Alignment in the powder and retain that alignment while we compact sets the 00:22:33.030 --> 00:22:36.744 performance limit of the magnet. So a lot of our

engineering is, 00:22:36.744 --> 00:22:41.040 you know, focus on, you know, increasing the envelope to which we can control 00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:42.807 that alignment and compaction density. 00:22:43.423 --> 00:22:48.450 At that point, the magnet is almost done because we are using nanoparticles. 00:22:48.450 --> 00:22:52.640 We don't have the need to sinter the particles, which is what you might expect 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.586 in a powder metallurgy operation like that. 00:22:55.456 --> 00:22:58.950 But because they're nanoparticles, there's already a very high driving force 00:22:58.950 --> 00:23:02.670 for densification. So there's little we have to do to them afterwards to, 00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:04.698 you know, get the final magnet block. 00:23:05.174 --> 00:23:09.330 We try to press to as near net shape as possible, but then, you know, 00:23:09.330 --> 00:23:11.890 some things require things you can't press to like, you know, 00:23:11.890 --> 00:23:13.405 radii of curvature and whatnot. 00:23:13.754 --> 00:23:17.945 And so that we've developed the ways to finish the magnet, machine the magnet to shape. 00:23:18.334 --> 00:23:22.078 Sometimes we have to make, you know, assemblies that are glued together of other magnets. 00:23:22.606 --> 00:23:25.758 And then, you know, it is an iron-based material, so it will rust. 00:23:26.060 --> 00:23:29.375 So we do put coatings and paint them or electroplate them to, 00:23:29.696 --> 00:23:33.350 you know, stabilize them into whatever environment that they're going to be put into. 00:23:34.176 --> 00:23:38.390 So that's the end-to-end process that we do in pilot and we've sized it so that 00:23:38.390 --> 00:23:42.740 we can, you know, make magnets of the size and the shape that would be similar 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:45.340 to the size and shape that we'll make up in our first plant, 00:23:45.340 --> 00:23:46.453 first full-scale plant. 00:23:46.935 --> 00:23:49.570 We'll just be making a lot more magnets in the first, you know, 00:23:49.570 --> 00:23:55.597 plant. We can make maybe a few, you know, well, we're sized to make about two tons of magnets here. 00:23:55.904 --> 00:23:58.180 And that could be several, depending on the size of the magnet, 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:01.042 several hundred thousand to a few million magnets per year in pilot. 00:24:01.738 --> 00:24:08.060 We'll be making up to 1,500 tons per year of magnets in Sartell is where our 00:24:08.060 --> 00:24:10.901 plant's going to be. And that could be millions of magnets per week. 00:24:11.280 --> 00:24:17.226 So it's a step change in scale, but the unit operations here are being demonstrated here in pilot. 00:24:18.584 --> 00:24:22.073 Yeah, tell us a bit more about what this new facility is going to be able to do for you all. 00:24:22.923 --> 00:24:31.654 So it will be able to provide the fully processed and completed magnets and 00:24:31.654 --> 00:24:32.878 ship them to our customers. 00:24:33.371 --> 00:24:37.914 You know, there's a qualification procedure you have to go through that usually 00:24:37.914 --> 00:24:42.364 has several stages, you know, to be, you know, a vendor for, 00:24:42.364 --> 00:24:46.115 you know, an OEM or, you know, a large company, you know, that manufactures speakers. 00:24:46.550 --> 00:24:51.126 So, you know, the first step of that is, you know, the prototyping of the magnet and the part. 00:24:51.417 --> 00:24:54.514 But then you have to demonstrate that you can make these magnets that scale 00:24:54.514 --> 00:24:57.974 to the level of quality control that you need, demonstrate that you've got all 00:24:57.974 --> 00:25:01.564 the ISO requirements met, you know, and basically, you know, 00:25:01.564 --> 00:25:06.295 satisfy, you know, the customer's requirements for quality and, you know, and cost. 00:25:06.817 --> 00:25:11.254 And so that's what, you know, we're doing initially with that plant is, 00:25:11.254 --> 00:25:16.274 you know, we're making the, you know, we're signing the agreements now to fill 00:25:16.274 --> 00:25:17.678 the capacity of that plant. 00:25:18.241 --> 00:25:21.144 But then the other function of that plant, and. 00:25:22.184 --> 00:25:27.964 You can almost consider it to be a super pilot in that the 1,500 tons we anticipate 00:25:27.964 --> 00:25:33.049 will be one line of magnet manufacturing that when we build, 00:25:33.604 --> 00:25:38.220 our next plant, we would, to the extent that we can, just cut and paste that 00:25:38.220 --> 00:25:42.403 1,500 to 2,000 ton line that we're building in Sartell. 00:25:42.786 --> 00:25:47.973 And then copy it to make, you know, larger capacity plants in other places. 00:25:48.308 --> 00:25:52.074 And then the idea would be to build up those, you know, subsequent plants in, 00:25:52.074 --> 00:25:55.494 you know, parallel lines of 2000 tons capacity. 00:25:55.494 --> 00:25:59.534 You know, there is a, you know, because our process is kind of a chemical process 00:25:59.534 --> 00:26:02.124 on the front end where we make the powder and then a, you know, 00:26:02.124 --> 00:26:05.287 kind of a widget making factory at the back end where we make the magnets, 00:26:05.769 --> 00:26:07.778 you know, there's a, there are, there is kind of a, you know, 00:26:08.274 --> 00:26:10.164 a mismatch and batch size between the two. 00:26:10.164 --> 00:26:14.374 We tend to make large quantities of powder and then extract from that as we 00:26:14.374 --> 00:26:16.265 press the magnets. So we'll have several, 00:26:17.421 --> 00:26:22.474 presses operating in parallel, several milling machines that process the powder 00:26:22.474 --> 00:26:26.557 operating in parallel, and maybe just one or two fluidized bed reactors per line. 00:26:26.922 --> 00:26:30.202 But then we would just replicate that to build up to two to four to six. 00:26:30.481 --> 00:26:35.583 We think 10,000 tons is probably kind of the optimal size for a plant, but we'll see. 00:26:37.078 --> 00:26:41.684 All right.

All to play for. So you started talking about the future already. 00:26:41.984 --> 00:26:48.545 So you guys are 13 years old. So where do you think you'll be 13 years from now? 00:26:49.845 --> 00:26:54.324 Oh, I don't know. Yeah. Me or the company? Tell me about it. 00:26:55.704 --> 00:26:59.012 Yeah. So the goal for the company is, you know, we'll, you know, 00:26:59.412 --> 00:27:04.016 we, you know, are, are, we have a pretty solid plan for the next five to 10 years, right? 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:07.564 A lot of it will depend on, you know, the, the growth of the market. 00:27:07.924 --> 00:27:14.894 We anticipate that in addition to EVs, the growth of other applications that 00:27:14.894 --> 00:27:21.044 require high power dense, high efficiency motors is just going to grow substantially. 00:27:21.044 --> 00:27:26.534 And this could be things from motors for drones, motors for robots and cobots 00:27:26.534 --> 00:27:30.794 that are basically physical type of AI implementations. 00:27:32.061 --> 00:27:37.844 I think the last market projection I saw was that the total market for rare 00:27:37.844 --> 00:27:44.374 earth magnets is going to grow by, you know, a factor of 3x over the next 15 to 20 years. 00:27:44.944 --> 00:27:50.304 And supply of rare earths for those magnets will only grow by a factor of 2x at best. 00:27:50.809 --> 00:27:53.584 We'll see, but I think there's going to be plenty of work for everybody. 00:27:53.973 --> 00:27:57.075 And so, you know, even a 10,000 ton plant is just, you know, 00:27:57.392 --> 00:28:00.997 I think still less than 1% of the total market today. 00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:06.874 So, you know, Depending on things, how they play out, we could be making in 00:28:06.874 --> 00:28:10.375 10 years, we could have several plants in operation, and I hope that we do. 00:28:10.817 --> 00:28:13.214 And it's feasible to do that for us 00:28:13.214 --> 00:28:16.930 because our raw materials are fairly straightforward. I mean, we need... 00:28:17.886 --> 00:28:21.103 You know, iron, you know, whether it's iron oxide, like from the iron range 00:28:21.103 --> 00:28:26.003 or things like iron chloride salts, which can be, you know, byproducts of steelmaking, 00:28:26.003 --> 00:28:27.625 you know, the pickling process in steel. 00:28:28.082 --> 00:28:33.132 And we need ammonia and electricity. Those are really the basic building blocks that we need. 00:28:33.642 --> 00:28:37.523 And depending upon how vertically integrated we are in terms of our total and 00:28:37.523 --> 00:28:42.084 how circular our manufacturing process becomes, those might be all we ever need. 00:28:43.244 --> 00:28:45.483 Getting there is, you know, we'll need some other things, right? 00:28:45.483 --> 00:28:46.704 You know, waters as well. 00:28:47.093 --> 00:28:51.990 But it is, you know, it is designed to be as closed loop of a process as we can make it. 00:28:52.663 --> 00:28:55.543 And then the material itself is inherently recyclable. I mean,

00:28:55.543 --> 00:28:59.063 there's only iron and nitrogen that makes up 99.9% of the magnet. 00:28:59.063 --> 00:29:02.673 So in principle, it should be recyclable, just like, you know, 00:29:02.673 --> 00:29:04.429 all scrap steel is recycled today. 00:29:05.186 --> 00:29:10.163 Very cool. So what about, so that's the company. What other applications do 00:29:10.163 --> 00:29:12.650 you see for the technology and how that's going to grow? 00:29:13.306 --> 00:29:16.465 Well, so there's two aspects to that. 00:29:17.333 --> 00:29:20.579 One is the iron nitride magnet technology itself, right? 00:29:20.896 --> 00:29:25.393 And what you see whenever there's a fundamentally new material brought into 00:29:25.393 --> 00:29:29.693 the market, like neodymium magnets were brought into the market over 40 years 00:29:29.693 --> 00:29:32.626 ago now, they're brought in to meet a certain need. 00:29:32.998 --> 00:29:37.467 But then over time, you'll see other applications grow and develop that weren't, 00:29:38.135 --> 00:29:40.741 conceived of because those materials weren't available. 00:29:41.310 --> 00:29:44.513 And I think we'll see the same thing with iron nitride. We're seeing a little 00:29:44.513 --> 00:29:48.383 bit of it already in terms of, you know, the ability to, you know, 00:29:48.383 --> 00:29:52.883 contemplate larger production runs of, you know, drones or robots. 00:29:52.883 --> 00:29:57.613 You know, in addition to, you know, the traction motor in an electric vehicle, 00:29:57.613 --> 00:30:01.943 there are dozens of other uses for magnets and vehicles from, 00:30:01.943 --> 00:30:06.306 you know, the motors that run the power steering to the latches to the sensors. 00:30:06.608 --> 00:30:10.282 So I think we'll probably see, and of course, the sound system, the speakers. 00:30:10.613 --> 00:30:15.903 So I think you'll see more application of iron nitride in those other supporting 00:30:15.903 --> 00:30:19.179 systems that go throughout the economy. 00:30:20.053 --> 00:30:24.773 Magnets basically are used to produce motion. So if you have an application 00:30:24.773 --> 00:30:29.753 that requires something that moves, chances are you can find a way that a permanent 00:30:29.753 --> 00:30:31.281 magnet would make it better. 00:30:31.716 --> 00:30:35.115 And having an available permanent magnet that's powerful like iron nitride will help. 00:30:35.998 --> 00:30:39.277 The other thing I think we'll see is, and this is more of a personal desire, 00:30:39.277 --> 00:30:45.232 but, you know, the value is not just in the magnet, but also in the way that we make them. 00:30:45.673 --> 00:30:50.294 You know, I'm not aware of any other, you know, examples of, 00:30:50.898 --> 00:30:55.835 a bulk material that is built up from discrete crystallographically aligned 00:30:56.143 --> 00:31:00.467 nanoparticles that are true nanoparticles, you know, at the level of production 00:31:00.467 --> 00:31:01.386 that we're contemplating. 00:31:01.827 -->

00:31:08.287 So, the methods that we've developed to manipulate and construct heterostructures 00:31:08.287 --> 00:31:10.217 from those particles, I think we'll 00:31:10.217 --> 00:31:14.511 probably find use in other material systems. I don't know which ones. 00:31:15.034 --> 00:31:19.230 I mean, other magnetic material systems might be an obvious choice, but there are, 00:31:19.776 --> 00:31:24.917 a lot of other applications in metallurgy and material science where a nanostructured 00:31:24.917 --> 00:31:30.253 material would help for any number of properties, magnetic, mechanical, optical, thermal. 00:31:30.905 --> 00:31:34.217 But to date, there hasn't been a process route that's been found to be able 00:31:34.217 --> 00:31:36.239 to realize the nanostructures at scale. 00:31:37.266 --> 00:31:40.317 The work that we do might solve some of those problems. I don't know, 00:31:40.317 --> 00:31:46.865 but that is something I would, over the next 15, 20 years, I think is very likely to happen. Very cool. 00:31:47.655 --> 00:31:51.807 All right. So we're going to go ahead and open the floor to questions now. 00:31:51.807 --> 00:31:56.420 So if you want to raise your hand and ask your question to Frank directly, 00:31:56.554 --> 00:32:00.207 we can definitely enable that or you can type them into the chat. Thank you. 00:32:01.169 --> 00:32:07.544 But so as we wait for people to gather their thoughts here, what do you think, 00:32:08.088 --> 00:32:11.364 about, you know, we've talked about the Iron Range and, you know, 00:32:11.704 --> 00:32:14.274 the location there in Minneapolis. 00:32:14.274 --> 00:32:20.604 So how do you think this will impact that area of the country with the Great 00:32:20.604 --> 00:32:24.646 Lakes and the steel industry there and the auto industry right there in Detroit? 00:32:25.104 --> 00:32:32.473 How do you think this could impact that area that's kind of hurting a little bit lately? Yeah. 00:32:33.044 --> 00:32:38.024 So the site at Zartel that we selected was the site of a paper mill, 00:32:38.024 --> 00:32:43.164 actually, that was there for generations, but I think burned down about 12 years 00:32:43.164 --> 00:32:45.967 ago. So it's been vacant ever since. 00:32:46.373 --> 00:32:52.184 And so we're happy to be able to put that land back into productive use and 00:32:52.184 --> 00:32:57.240 build on the industrial infrastructure that this part of the country has had for decades. 00:32:57.769 --> 00:33:00.794 You know, I've always lived in the vicinity of the Great Lakes. 00:33:00.794 --> 00:33:03.987 You know, I grew up near Lake Erie in Pennsylvania. I worked in New York. 00:33:04.248 --> 00:33:09.154 So I'm aware of, you know, that history. And there's a tremendous level of talent 00:33:09.154 --> 00:33:12.864 and capability in this part of the country. 00:33:12.864 --> 00:33:18.264 And so, you know, I, for one, you know, hope to be able to reactivate some of 00:33:18.264 --> 00:33:22.124 that and, you know, start

to, you know, put that manufacturing expertise to 00:33:22.124 --> 00:33:25.333 use, you know, making other types of products. 00:33:25.959 --> 00:33:32.284 So, you know, there are any number of, you know, problems that can be solved 00:33:32.284 --> 00:33:35.124 through, you know, advanced materials technology. 00:33:35.586 --> 00:33:38.676 And, you know, my career is focused on one part of it. 00:33:39.106 --> 00:33:43.530 I think there are many other potential, you know, things that could, 00:33:43.843 --> 00:33:49.764 you know, arise from, you know, the work but also the momentum that we're building here. 00:33:49.764 --> 00:33:52.994 You know, it's, you know, I did, at least before I moved out here, 00:33:52.994 --> 00:33:56.339 I didn't think of Minneapolis as a, as a, as a kind of a. 00:33:57.089 --> 00:34:01.203 An incubator of startups. But I think, you know, as this has come about and, 00:34:01.203 --> 00:34:03.247 you know, we've been able to demonstrate success, 00:34:03.741 --> 00:34:05.873 and demonstrate what can be done in this part of the country, 00:34:05.873 --> 00:34:09.793 I think, you know, we will see new technologies that are being developed using 00:34:09.793 --> 00:34:15.396 the same type of, you know, public-private, you know, market-based approach that we followed. Yeah. 00:34:16.453 --> 00:34:20.593 Excellent. Great. Well, I haven't seen any more questions come in. 00:34:20.593 --> 00:34:24.893 I think people are excited about the technology and you answered all their questions, 00:34:25.473 --> 00:34:29.093 in the discussion. So, I'm surprised, 00:34:31.214 --> 00:34:33.124 there's one oh there we go, 00:34:34.459 --> 00:34:40.330 Sarah, go for it. Hi, thank you for doing this webinar. This is all very cool. 00:34:41.386 --> 00:34:50.952 Thank you. I am curious if you could expand on sort of the expectations on, 00:34:52.695 --> 00:34:59.062 concept demonstration for customers and investors. 00:34:59.062 --> 00:35:05.632 I'm just, you laid out very nicely kind of how your company thinks about phasing 00:35:05.632 --> 00:35:08.076 out development and what you're ready to do. 00:35:08.744 --> 00:35:10.258 I'm just curious. 00:35:12.401 --> 00:35:16.942 Are the customers expecting, are they laying out a timeline you need to be able 00:35:16.942 --> 00:35:20.682 to demonstrate this in X number of months, years? 00:35:20.682 --> 00:35:26.612 Or are they being more open to that sense of possibility because this fits into 00:35:26.612 --> 00:35:34.112 a much longer term timeline for when they would actually use the product? 00:35:35.042 --> 00:35:41.082 So, you know, obviously, the point of the company is to make a product to sell, 00:35:41.082 --> 00:35:44.616 right? So, you know, every day that we're not is money that we're not making. 00:35:45.196 --> 00:35:47.664 And, you know, the way you make money is to sell to customers. 00:35:48.401 --> 00:35:52.242 You know, one of the values of having strategic investors like we've had, 00:35:52.242 --> 00:35:55.852 and by that I mean, you know, companies, you know, and it's known are some of 00:35:55.852 --> 00:35:58.674 our investors like General Motors, Atlantis, Samsung, 00:35:59.284 --> 00:36:03.057 you know, they have a need for magnets and, you know, they're investing in this, 00:36:03.516 --> 00:36:07.742 both for the investment opportunity, but also as part of their technology roadmaps, 00:36:07.742 --> 00:36:11.054 you know, they've anticipated that they'll need a product like ours at some point. 00:36:12.319 --> 00:36:17.107 So, you know, those types of investors, you know, will usually work with you 00:36:17.107 --> 00:36:21.717 to develop, you know, a multi-year technology and product development plan. 00:36:22.294 --> 00:36:26.387 And, you know, it is, you know, less defined at the beginning than, 00:36:26.387 --> 00:36:28.980 you know, than it is at the end, obviously, as things change. 00:36:29.525 --> 00:36:32.717 But the important thing is to, you know, make certain that, you know, 00:36:32.717 --> 00:36:37.297 all the stakeholders have the appropriate set of expectations and are informed 00:36:37.297 --> 00:36:38.507 about your state of progress. 00:36:38.920 --> 00:36:44.357 And it helps if you can show a record of setting milestones and meeting those 00:36:44.357 --> 00:36:45.698 milestones, which we did. 00:36:46.273 --> 00:36:51.819 So that helped build the credibility that we needed to justify a multi-year. 00:36:54.814 --> 00:37:01.158 Somewhat risky investment. And so moving along that takes time, 00:37:01.286 --> 00:37:06.027 effort, attention, and you just have to be responsive and, you know, 00:37:06.636 --> 00:37:08.317 be open and work with the customers. 00:37:08.317 --> 00:37:12.237 And, you know, sometimes, you know, you have to change. And we've done that 00:37:12.237 --> 00:37:16.907 a couple of times. But overall, we've had enough of a track record of success 00:37:16.907 --> 00:37:18.550 that we've been able to sustain our momentum. 00:37:19.636 --> 00:37:21.650 Great. Thanks for the great question, Sarah. 00:37:23.067 --> 00:37:26.251 All right. Let's go ahead and wrap there. 00:37:26.721 --> 00:37:29.987 Great discussion, Frank. Thank you so much for taking the time. 00:37:29.987 --> 00:37:34.097 And we'll be sharing this as a podcast, as we mentioned. So we'll direct any 00:37:34.097 --> 00:37:35.847 other questions that we get to you. 00:37:36.450 --> 00:37:41.387 Thanks, everyone, for joining us this afternoon. And huge thanks to Frank for 00:37:41.387 --> 00:37:43.573 sharing all the work that you all at Niron are doing. 00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:48.604 Thank you very much. Enjoyed speaking with you. Thanks, everyone. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.