Full Transcript for Indie Devs Play: Episode 8 - Super Mario 64 (N64/Switch) & 1996 in Gaming

TRANSCRIPT 🔗

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.306 Hello and welcome to another episode of Indie Devs Play, a podcast where two 00:00:04.492 --> 00:00:08.597 indie game developers dot dot dot play video games and we talk about them, 00:00:08.597 --> 00:00:11.197 discuss them, deconstruct them and everything else in between. 00:00:11.197 --> 00:00:15.477 My name is Jonathan Ridgway and I am joined by a man whose princess is never 00:00:15.477 --> 00:00:20.357 in another castle, Josh Watts. How are you, mate? Whoa, you've robbed my intro off me. I'm so sorry. 00:00:20.677 --> 00:00:24.317 I've been pushed out. I've had this prepared for weeks. I've just, 00:00:24.317 --> 00:00:29.267 oh, it's gonna, you're gonna demote me on the discord now calling me previous 00:00:29.267 --> 00:00:33.527 host? I basically started the podcast just so I could do that intro and chose 00:00:33.527 --> 00:00:34.857 the game specifically for it. 00:00:35.317 --> 00:00:41.232 But yeah. Today's episode, or this week's episode, is us playing Super Mario 64. 00:00:41.383 --> 00:00:43.917 Yeah. Have you played Super Mario 64 before, Josh? Yeah. 00:00:44.721 --> 00:00:47.971 Well, well, well back. When you were a wee nipper. As a wee spud. 00:00:49.074 --> 00:00:52.017 What a spud? Ah, last week then. Yeah, last week. 00:00:52.894 --> 00:00:55.530 Fair dues, fair dues. Before we get started on Super Mario 64, 00:00:56.137 --> 00:00:59.037 as we like to do on the podcast let's take a look 00:00:59.477 --> 00:01:05.117 into the time period when super mario 64 came out so in 1996 the game was 00:01:05.417 --> 00:01:10.617 released a long time ago it was a launch title for the super nintendo and it 00:01:10.617 --> 00:01:14.477 was the first super mario game to feature 3d graphics i've got the official 00:01:14.477 --> 00:01:16.461 date in japan was june 23rd 00:01:16.832 --> 00:01:18.177 1996 so 00:01:18.557 --> 00:01:24.277 some games that came out in uh 1996 which was a a long time ago well i suppose 00:01:24.277 --> 00:01:29.957 consoles we can talk about Nintendo 64 what a plot twist the Game Boy Pocket which was a, 00:01:30.477 --> 00:01:33.537 another version of the Game Boy it wasn't in the Game Boy Pocket was black and 00:01:33.537 --> 00:01:37.007 white and then the Game Boy Color came after maybe some people can can correct 00:01:37.007 --> 00:01:39.858 us on that one but uh I had that was called Game Boy, 00:01:40.457 --> 00:01:43.705 Now, so there was the Game Boy that was like a big gray slab. Yes. 00:01:43.705 --> 00:01:46.875 And then the Game Boy Pocket was like maybe half the size or something. 00:01:46.875 --> 00:01:52.185 I had a yellow version of it, I think. I have seeded memories somewhere of that Game Boy Pocket. 00:01:52.185 --> 00:01:56.385 It's not exactly a console, but a device that also came out during that period 00:01:56.385 --> 00:02:00.735 in 1996 was the Tamagotchi by Bandai. I don't know if you had one of those. 00:02:00.735 --> 00:02:03.565 The ones, do you remember them? I did not have a Tamagotchi. 00:02:03.565 --> 00:02:04.475 I do remember them, yeah. 00:02:05.415 --> 00:02:08.695 Yeah. And there was a lot of games and IPs started. 00:02:09.075 --> 00:02:13.385 I mean just to stick on consoles for a second the atari jaguar was discontinued 00:02:13.385 --> 00:02:20.115 the 3do sega cd and nintendo's infamous virtual boy which has had a comeback recently, 00:02:20.595 --> 00:02:23.755 like as part of the switch to classics library or something they're selling 00:02:23.755 --> 00:02:25.675 a virtual boy that connects to your switch, 00:02:26.275 --> 00:02:30.125 i think it's for the switch as well maybe but they also do kind of like a cardboard 00:02:30.125 --> 00:02:34.405 labo style version you know like a peripheral that you can get to play virtual 00:02:34.405 --> 00:02:37.595 boy games yeah that's all right That's all I'm saying on that one. 00:02:37.595 --> 00:02:42.765 But yeah, so some games that came out in 1996 as well. You had Street Fighter 00:02:42.765 --> 00:02:46.077 2 Alpha. You had Mario Kart 64 as well. 00:02:46.205 --> 00:02:51.045 Which also has Super Mario 64's castle in one of the levels as a cameo, I think. 00:02:51.045 --> 00:02:54.755 You do have to drive off the course. Yeah, you drive off that level, don't you? 00:02:54.755 --> 00:02:59.685 Yeah. Dookanookum 3D, which I think Dookanookum was like a side-scrolling shooter. 00:02:59.685 --> 00:03:04.155 And this was its first parade into 3D. Virtua Fighter 3 also came out. 00:03:04.155 --> 00:03:07.115 Are you saying Duke-a-Nukem on purpose, or is it Duke-a-Nukem? 00:03:07.115 --> 00:03:10.015 Duke-a-Nukem. Or is it called Duke-a-Nukem? I don't know, mate. 00:03:10.495 --> 00:03:13.035 I'm from a part of the West Midlands called the Black Country. 00:03:13.035 --> 00:03:14.140 Duke-a-Nukem? Terrifying. 00:03:14.343 --> 00:03:21.524 Duke-a-Nukem. Why do you keep saying Duke-a? How else do I say it? Like Duke! 00:03:22.830 --> 00:03:30.820 Like it is. Duke Nukem. Yeah. Duke Nukem. Like nuke, Duke, Duke nukes them. Duke Nukem. Duke Nukem. 00:03:31.640 --> 00:03:35.130 Do you know what? That might have been something. We're losing our mind now. 00:03:35.130 --> 00:03:39.550 I think we are losing our minds. And I think I've had a moment where I've only 00:03:39.550 --> 00:03:42.968 ever said it like that since I was six. And I've just never had to say it again. 00:03:43.409 --> 00:03:48.480 Because all I remember playing was Duke Nukem Land of the Babes. Stop saying that. 00:03:50.122 --> 00:03:53.540 Anyway, moving swiftly on. We're not quite on the Leisure Suit Larry episode 00:03:53.540 --> 00:03:55.520 yet. Oh, we're going to have to play Dookanookum now. 00:03:57.980 --> 00:04:01.480 I don't know if we can play it on anything. Damn, mate. Yeah, where were we? 00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:05.610 I had to Google it. I thought I was going, nah, that it had an A at the end. 00:04:05.760 --> 00:04:07.541 It's Dookanookum. Anyway.

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00:04:08.197 --> 00:04:13.218 I'm going to need to have someone else say it before we need to move swiftly on to Poconocom. 00:04:13.549 --> 00:04:19.270 No, Pokemon? Is it Pokemon or Pokemon? It's Pokemon. Okay. Say it with an American 00:04:19.270 --> 00:04:23.182 accent. Okay. So Duque, Nukem and Pokemon. Exactly. Yeah. 00:04:24.140 --> 00:04:29.336 Pokemon, red, green and blue came out in 1996. This intro is going great. 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:33.720 And I assume, did you play those or did you play gold and silver first? 00:04:34.380 --> 00:04:37.869 I actually played gold first, yes, but I did own blue. 00:04:38.357 --> 00:04:42.270 Afterwards and play that. Yeah, Pokemon Red and Blue, I was the generation of 00:04:42.270 --> 00:04:44.475 that and it was just, everyone had it. 00:04:44.597 --> 00:04:47.480 It was insane. I remember weighing out. Not in my circles. 00:04:48.400 --> 00:04:51.480 We had Pokemon cards before we started playing the games. Oh, okay. Yeah. 00:04:51.860 --> 00:04:55.760 It's not in my circles, just my school. Like there wasn't any circles. 00:04:55.760 --> 00:05:00.060 Yeah, I mean, people didn't play Pokemon cards properly in my school. Oh, definitely not. 00:05:00.217 --> 00:05:02.740 We didn't play Pokemon cards. What did you do? Spread them. We just had them. 00:05:02.740 --> 00:05:03.580 Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:07.500 Just had them and traded them. This is good origami. Woo-hoo! And then we go. 00:05:08.340 --> 00:05:13.656 Well, that's why all my, you know, OG Pokemon cards are all damaged in a folder behind me. 00:05:13.772 --> 00:05:17.597 Oh, really? They're in a fat Pikachu that I've got. Whoa. 00:05:17.748 --> 00:05:22.960 Like a zipped up thing. Don't body shame, Pikachu. Well, it's the original design, but it's like a... 00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:26.873 Have you got first edition cards? Yes, yeah. With the little first edition tag on? 00:05:27.303 --> 00:05:31.603 Yeah, I believe so. Oh, some of those. Yeah, I've got like a shiny Charizard 00:05:31.603 --> 00:05:32.237 in there and everything. 00:05:32.423 --> 00:05:36.153 Well. He's a good lad. It's probably worth three pay with the boxing on the 00:05:36.153 --> 00:05:39.123 edges, I'm guessing, but that's the one. Yeah. 00:05:39.483 --> 00:05:43.323 Now, they're actually in those little sleeves as well, because it's a case that's 00:05:43.323 --> 00:05:45.833 designed specifically for them. Well, you know, you don't need to buy a new 00:05:45.833 --> 00:05:48.943 video game, just sell that. No, if I want to buy Dookanookum, I can just. 00:05:49.043 --> 00:05:52.843 If you want to buy Dookanookum for Eva. Yeah, for Eva. 00:05:54.063 --> 00:05:59.443 Another another ipo from 1996 before we go completely insane is a resident evil 00:05:59.443 --> 00:06:03.583 first resident evil came out in 1996 at least you said that one right did i 00:06:03.583 --> 00:06:06.783 yeah oh god the fine print says biohazard so maybe i didn't oh, 00:06:07.463 --> 00:06:11.833 dead or alive dead or alive that one also 1996 have you played the fighting 00:06:11.833 --> 00:06:12.943 games dead or alive very short uh, 00:06:13.783 --> 00:06:18.993 in passing like on holiday where there's like a console for rent and that comes 00:06:18.993 --> 00:06:22.463 with it that's when i've played oh wow okay yeah the people at the shop were 00:06:22.463 --> 00:06:25.323 like this one's a good one honestly no it's just more like, 00:06:26.143 --> 00:06:28.813 i don't want to get into the full details of it but like you could rent the 00:06:28.813 --> 00:06:31.483 the console and you could rent games but they came with 00:06:31.903 --> 00:06:35.003 like a selection of them when you rented it and then you could get extra games 00:06:35.003 --> 00:06:37.663 on top and that was just one of the ones that came with it yeah i remember when 00:06:37.663 --> 00:06:39.383 i went with my mom to chicago 00:06:39.803 --> 00:06:43.923 i want to say it was like 2000 maybe 2000 actually and i was like where i was 00:06:43.923 --> 00:06:48.303 staying i rented a nintendo 64 like a blockbuster or something like that and 00:06:48.303 --> 00:06:53.463 yeah and i played games on that nintendo 64 that i never played at home i'd like a 00:06:53.883 --> 00:06:56.201 blockbuster it's a bit like choices but american um. 00:06:58.023 --> 00:07:00.120 There's a british reference for people, 00:07:00.865 --> 00:07:03.945 It's what Netflix... Blockbuster had a chance to buy Netflix, 00:07:03.945 --> 00:07:05.495 didn't they? At one point as well. 00:07:05.640 --> 00:07:10.135 That's quite funner and a bit awkward. Another IP that came out in 1996, 00:07:10.135 --> 00:07:12.908 first time. Soul Edge, which is Soul Calibur. 00:07:13.053 --> 00:07:16.425 Yeah. The Soul Calibur series. Another big franchise, Quake. 00:07:16.425 --> 00:07:21.585 First Quake came out in 1996. Tomb Raider. Nice. Yeah. Crash Bandicoot. 00:07:21.585 --> 00:07:23.215 Crap. I mean, nice. Yeah. 00:07:23.645 --> 00:07:26.665 I'm just trying to throw in something a bit different. I don't actually think. What, Crasher? 00:07:28.025 --> 00:07:33.325 Yeah, Crash Bandicoot, Which is also a 3D platform, Super Mario 64, 00:07:33.325 --> 00:07:37.345 but more linear in its approach. Ironically, more like 2D Mario. 00:07:38.045 --> 00:07:41.265 Yes, yeah. For obvious reasons. A series, I don't know if you're familiar with 00:07:41.265 --> 00:07:45.005 this series, but Sakura Wars got its first game in 1996. 00:07:45.005 --> 00:07:49.405 It's kind of like an RPG, but it's also got this kind of visual novel social 00:07:49.405 --> 00:07:52.595 sim romance elements, and those are quite pronounced as well. 00:07:52.595 --> 00:07:56.615 They had a new game, I want to say about five years ago, maybe. 00:07:56.615 --> 00:08:00.365 A Rigsaw Bell. I thought you were just naming like Naruto fans trying to find 00:08:00.365 --> 00:08:03.747 relevance for Sakura in the story, but

yeah. Cha! 00:08:05.145 --> 00:08:08.155 But the one that got, I don't know whether it got kind of a semi-reboot or something. 00:08:08.155 --> 00:08:11.130 It was just called Sakura Wars that came out on like the PS4 and everything. 00:08:11.565 --> 00:08:15.717 And the character designer was the character, the mangaka of Bleach. 00:08:16.440 --> 00:08:20.489 Oh, sweet. So the characters... There's a game called New Sakura Wars. 00:08:20.489 --> 00:08:23.023 Is that... Would that be the one? That might be it. 00:08:23.649 --> 00:08:26.569 Yeah, the character kind of looks like... Like Bleach characters. 00:08:26.969 --> 00:08:31.269 I think like Shonen Jump mangakas have very distinct styles for themselves, 00:08:31.269 --> 00:08:35.085 right? They do, yeah. And so you automatically know when it's by that author. 00:08:35.230 --> 00:08:38.661 I mean, it's by design, obviously, but another IP that came out in 1996. 00:08:39.709 --> 00:08:41.105 Persona, got its first release. 00:08:41.232 --> 00:08:44.529 Persona. But the games are not available anywhere, I don't think. 00:08:45.149 --> 00:08:48.789 Want one. yeah i don't know if the first one got localized in north america 00:08:48.789 --> 00:08:52.679 at all but maybe it did but it was quite niche but maybe they'll revisit them 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:56.189 at some point who knows and another ip again i don't know if you've played this 00:08:56.189 --> 00:08:59.829 a point and click adventure called broken sword i've heard of it yeah 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:03.209 i think it's called shadow of templar the first game i think it's had a few 00:09:03.209 --> 00:09:05.709 remasters or re-release or remakes 00:09:06.129 --> 00:09:10.280 something of some nature on things but they're kind of fun the animation in them is stunning 00:09:10.611 --> 00:09:13.839 as well like the visual design but i think point and clicks adventures typically 00:09:13.839 --> 00:09:16.755 lend themselves well to that kind of stuff but yes there was a lot of 00:09:16.895 --> 00:09:20.099 a lot of big new ips there though pokemon resident evil that stuff's still going 00:09:20.099 --> 00:09:24.359 tomb raider crash bandicoot personas as big as it's ever been obviously quake 00:09:24.359 --> 00:09:26.395 as well and i there might be a new, 00:09:26.877 --> 00:09:29.869 dead or alive coming i know they've still got a bunch of those spin-offs coming 00:09:29.869 --> 00:09:32.109 out there's always a new dead or alive, 00:09:32.709 --> 00:09:36.719 in a manner of speaking but yeah so that's the kind of year 1996 that super 00:09:36.719 --> 00:09:43.233 mario 64 come out So let's move on to the game itself, the star of the show, Super Mario 64. 00:09:43.575 --> 00:09:45.125 So who's the star of the show? 00:09:45.749 --> 00:09:49.449 Okay, well, the second star of the show. I don't get my intro. 00:09:49.449 --> 00:09:53.029 You mispronounced it, Newcombe, and then I'm not the star of the show? Joshua Watsu. 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:58.319 You sound a bit like Jar Jar Binks' brother, actually. What? 00:09:58.319 --> 00:10:03.209 Joshua Watsu, or at least a Jedi that dies in a side novel. Where were we? 00:10:04.029 --> 00:10:07.223 You've caught me off my... You've took me off my... I've derailed you. 00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:09.783 I am going to play that card that you've derailed me, yes, 00:10:10.363 --> 00:10:14.971 So, yeah, so Super Mario 64, well, you played it on the Switch, is that correct? 00:10:15.313 --> 00:10:18.693 And it's the All-Stars collection or something, or the anniversary or something? 00:10:18.693 --> 00:10:21.263 3D All-Stars. 3D All-Stars. 00:10:21.542 --> 00:10:25.403 And I played it on the Classics library, Super Mario 64. Now, 00:10:25.403 --> 00:10:29.263 I don't know what the differences are there. I don't believe there is other 00:10:29.263 --> 00:10:32.603 than the fact, it was yours, old aspect ratio. It was, yes. So maybe that's... 00:10:32.603 --> 00:10:34.659 Yes, I think that might be the difference. 00:10:35.383 --> 00:10:38.193 Maybe some... The aspect ratio. Technical, or maybe just yours runs a little 00:10:38.193 --> 00:10:39.583 bit better, maybe? I don't know. Maybe. 00:10:39.883 --> 00:10:43.971 Might have. Higher framerate? Yeah. So we both played it on a Switch and Switch 2. 00:10:44.552 --> 00:10:48.335 And then we believe it's basically the same experience as best as we could. 00:10:48.335 --> 00:10:52.825 We played, how did you play it? Did you play it as a handheld? 00:10:52.825 --> 00:10:54.136 Or did you, yeah, poorly. 00:10:54.415 --> 00:10:56.139 Or did you play it on a TV screen? 00:10:56.545 --> 00:10:59.506 Yeah, I played it on the, I mean, I played it half and half, actually. 00:10:59.842 --> 00:11:02.645 I kind of played some on the TV. And then when I was traveling, 00:11:02.645 --> 00:11:04.465 I played it on the handheld. 00:11:04.465 --> 00:11:08.785 And yeah, and I'm like yourself. I asked you at the start of the episode, 00:11:08.785 --> 00:11:10.375 like, had you played it before? 00:11:10.375 --> 00:11:14.455 I played it when I was little. I've got the N64 cartridge in my office. 00:11:14.455 --> 00:11:18.940 But i haven't played it recently like for like properly recently like to finish 00:11:19.132 --> 00:11:22.805 for a long time so it was very much like a nostalgic trip it's a bit like some 00:11:22.805 --> 00:11:26.905 of the games we've been playing recently halo and fable and stuff it's all coming back you know 00:11:27.305 --> 00:11:30.525 but i do often like every couple of years jump in and play 15 minutes of it 00:11:30.525 --> 00:11:34.927 on the classics library so like playing the controls it wasn't completely alien to me 00:11:35.345 --> 00:11:39.595 you know it was somewhat familiar but i definitely think this is an example 00:11:39.595 --> 00:11:44.145 of a game that was designed with the controller that the original console had 00:11:44.145 --> 00:11:46.622 in mind and that's that's

going to lead us into 00:11:47.023 --> 00:11:51.245 our conversations about it i suppose so i guess like kind of your first thoughts 00:11:51.245 --> 00:11:55.495 about the game what what what was your experience like with superman 64 having 00:11:55.495 --> 00:11:59.205 not played it for a long time since you were a kid um it was. 00:11:59.765 --> 00:12:03.950 Good question mark i in terms of personal preference i wasn't really a big fan 00:12:04.078 --> 00:12:07.245 playing it i don't have the nostalgia for it to, 00:12:07.765 --> 00:12:12.245 get me through some of the clunkiness of it but i could appreciate it for what 00:12:12.245 --> 00:12:16.715 it is in turn its place in in history of games and what it did for games at 00:12:16.715 --> 00:12:18.591 the time and everything like the the 00:12:18.968 --> 00:12:22.525 innovation it was presenting was was huge and still stuff that he's done in 00:12:22.525 --> 00:12:25.485 that game he's done in games that are still being done today right but i found 00:12:25.485 --> 00:12:29.085 like the thing that really blew me away was the the depth and 00:12:29.445 --> 00:12:34.315 quantity of action in the game like the amount of different things Mario can do is crazy. 00:12:34.315 --> 00:12:37.405 Yeah, I think they've really took the philosophy. 00:12:37.885 --> 00:12:41.935 I think Miyamoto spoke about this publicly a few times, even with the older 00:12:41.935 --> 00:12:47.104 Marios, where every action that you input into the controller has to be fun. 00:12:47.668 --> 00:12:52.009 Has to be delightful. And I think they've really took that, took inspiration 00:12:52.009 --> 00:12:55.899 from that. And you've got, there's so, so many different types of jumping, 00:12:56.102 --> 00:12:57.729 you know, like that you can do in the game. 00:12:58.089 --> 00:13:02.308 And there's, there's a lot to that as well, learning the functionality of that 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.049 and to take it into like a 3D space now. 00:13:05.049 --> 00:13:08.329 I mean, it was kind of essential that you do that, but to be able to make that 00:13:08.329 --> 00:13:11.489 work with all these different variations was quite something. 00:13:11.489 --> 00:13:15.759 One thing I really liked about the jumping because you've now got this 3D space 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:20.249 and that comes with it different challenges compared to just being on that kind of 2D plane. 00:13:20.629 --> 00:13:24.309 One thing I liked that they did was they emphasised the shadow underneath you. 00:13:24.309 --> 00:13:28.689 So you know when you're jumping between parts like the way you can identify, 00:13:29.189 --> 00:13:32.089 where you are and where you're going to land is your shadow beneath you and 00:13:32.089 --> 00:13:36.349 it actually changes in size as well. That continues in later Mario games as 00:13:36.349 --> 00:13:38.749 well like I remember that from Mario Sunshine and such. 00:13:39.089 --> 00:13:41.531 You would use the shadow when you're like hanging on a rope. 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.551 To know if you are now above the platform below you and can now let go of that 00:13:45.551 --> 00:13:48.141 rope to then land on the platform yes yeah 00:13:48.521 --> 00:13:52.191 so that that is something that they continue to to use and that's quite cool 00:13:52.191 --> 00:13:56.141 it's rather than you know some sort of like some games later than this one would 00:13:56.141 --> 00:13:59.041 like be like now you can't let go at this point because you're not you would 00:13:59.041 --> 00:14:00.481 you would fall and you'd die and be like. 00:14:01.521 --> 00:14:04.601 And then eventually you'd be able to let go and stuff but this i think that's 00:14:04.601 --> 00:14:08.481 very clever i think one of the the bit i mean relates to this kind of stuff is the, 00:14:08.941 --> 00:14:12.961 i mean there's a there's so many innovations in this game that all kind of interlock together so 00:14:13.321 --> 00:14:18.091 because it's you know it's nintendo 64 it's 3d you've got the camera movement 00:14:18.091 --> 00:14:21.001 but it's it's not just about these things it's about the controller you know 00:14:21.001 --> 00:14:25.191 it's about like the fact that they innovated the analog stick and they utilize 00:14:25.191 --> 00:14:27.983 the analog stick in this game you've going from d-pad 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:32.581 that either moves four or eight directions to this analog stick now that's 360 00:14:32.581 --> 00:14:34.468 and they keep utilizing this and they 00:14:34.770 --> 00:14:38.661 use it in a 3D space now because they you know it's part of the strengths of 00:14:38.661 --> 00:14:42.351 the I mean every game controller now has an analog stick I mean they have two 00:14:42.351 --> 00:14:47.021 but like obviously they innovated one here and they were using the C buttons to 00:14:47.401 --> 00:14:51.701 rotate the camera but then this was later turn you know this is where the innovation 00:14:51.701 --> 00:14:55.221 from this came as a platform is you then think okay well 00:14:55.541 --> 00:14:59.290 another analog stick to control the camera makes more sense than the four buttons 00:14:59.492 --> 00:15:02.821 you know it's almost like they've gone from the analog stick yeah. 00:15:03.361 --> 00:15:07.301 Well a gamecube you know the dual shock that you had with the playstation one 00:15:07.301 --> 00:15:10.501 controllers that they added later and and things like the reason i say gamecube 00:15:10.501 --> 00:15:16.021 is because it had the rather than the c button it had the yellow mini sort of analog stick didn't it, 00:15:16.501 --> 00:15:19.721 yes yeah they were definitely keeping that the premise of that one and they 00:15:19.721 --> 00:15:23.741 might have even had the kind of mini triangles attached to that i need to have a look at my i think 00:15:24.061 --> 00:15:28.631 they i think they did and i think they still had like when you would play 64 00:15:28.631 -->

00:15:33.077 games on the GameCube, like when they ported Ocarina of Time and stuff, were, 00:15:33.541 --> 00:15:37.238 recreated for it. The C button inputs were on that stick. 00:15:37.551 --> 00:15:40.866 That makes sense, yeah. Yeah, so they were still keeping kind of the naming 00:15:40.866 --> 00:15:41.876 convention there, weren't they? 00:15:42.316 --> 00:15:44.486 Keeping that alive a little bit. In fact, now I think about it, 00:15:44.486 --> 00:15:47.263 there is a C button on the Switch, isn't there? 00:15:47.455 --> 00:15:50.816 They had a Z button on the 64 and that went to GameCube as well. 00:15:50.816 --> 00:15:53.788 I think they still had Z on 64 as well. It was like a purple button. 00:15:54.516 --> 00:15:59.726 Not 64 on GameCube but the purple button and now you've got ZR and ZL for the triggers. 00:15:59.726 --> 00:16:02.456 And I mean, C makes sense when you think of what they intended the buttons to 00:16:02.456 --> 00:16:06.376 be used for because, cameras right like see for camera yeah yeah but one of 00:16:06.376 --> 00:16:10.356 one of the key innovations because obviously there were 3d games that existed 00:16:10.356 --> 00:16:13.598 before this and there were certainly 3d games you know i mentioned some of them 00:16:13.941 --> 00:16:17.250 in the at the start of the show you know you got your tomb raiders you got crushed bandicoot 00:16:17.638 --> 00:16:21.656 you got things like that that do exist where you might take um and also resident 00:16:21.656 --> 00:16:25.376 evil you know games that might have tank controls like tomb raider or resident 00:16:25.376 --> 00:16:29.396 evil but the the turning of the camera in tomb raider is quite you know clunky 00:16:29.396 --> 00:16:32.400 i mean you've got to look forward and then click and it kind of pivots very 00:16:32.598 --> 00:16:34.656 dramatic and extreme isn't it yeah, 00:16:35.356 --> 00:16:40.836 so one of the cool things that mario what super mario 64 did which is now in 00:16:40.836 --> 00:16:46.858 practically all 3d games is the formula is mario what mario does is he moves in the direction of 00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:50.553 that the player inputs based on the perspective of the camera yeah so, 00:16:51.193 --> 00:16:56.143 the controls of it controls dynamically and it's tied to the camera itself and 00:16:56.143 --> 00:17:02.327 that is literally the formula for third person 3d games now that you see today that is that is it 00:17:02.589 --> 00:17:06.993 and it was innovated in this so like you know you had 3d games that might use. 00:17:07.613 --> 00:17:11.343 Where they have static cameras or you had 3d games that might be tank controls 00:17:11.343 --> 00:17:14.063 or something they're trying to figure it all out but this was the one where 00:17:14.063 --> 00:17:18.702 it's kind of okay this is how we should move forward doing 3d games this is it 00:17:19.050 --> 00:17:22.873 you know it's not saying that it's the most perfect like function of 00:17:23.253 --> 00:17:27.153 it no but this is absolutely where like you know if your cam the camera's changed 00:17:27.153 --> 00:17:30.823 and then you're moving in that direction you know it's it feels really good 00:17:30.823 --> 00:17:32.393 in fact whilst it does feel, 00:17:32.873 --> 00:17:37.163 a touch clunky to play it today it doesn't feel alien you know it still feels 00:17:37.163 --> 00:17:41.473 like oh okay i understand how to move here whereas obviously i've got some friends 00:17:41.473 --> 00:17:44.943 you know i remember at university we play some old games And so some of the 00:17:44.943 --> 00:17:47.390 people I went to uni with, I went to uni a couple of years ago. 00:17:47.948 --> 00:17:51.389 Later than my age group so i was with people about three or four years younger 00:17:51.389 --> 00:17:56.736 sometimes and so they hadn't played that kind of 90s generation of 3d some of them 00:17:57.166 --> 00:18:01.249 and it was so alien to them to play a game like that you know like it was it 00:18:01.249 --> 00:18:05.109 was a peculiar to them so it's it's an example there isn't it like of the of 00:18:05.109 --> 00:18:06.875 the jump between things that has 00:18:07.072 --> 00:18:11.049 occurred or whatever i guess we could talk about the what it meant for the game 00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:13.341 to transition from 2d to 3d from a 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:17.619 guess level design and game design perspective outside of because we obviously 00:18:17.619 --> 00:18:21.519 talked about what it innovated but what did it translate from the 2d and what 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.369 did that become in the 3d like for example the levels are well 00:18:25.729 --> 00:18:29.949 first of all you've got a hub world which wasn't hugely popular around that time to have a 00:18:30.389 --> 00:18:33.889 static world you would explore then go into levels from that world 00:18:34.249 --> 00:18:37.959 really there's more of a list of levels if I'm remembering correctly so for 00:18:37.959 --> 00:18:41.989 example in like donkey kong country in the 90s on the super nintendo 00:18:42.343 --> 00:18:46.069 you would have a hub world that you entered levels between and you could re-enter 00:18:46.069 --> 00:18:49.953 the levels and play them again and there was things there was secrets to find on those 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.389 like in those hub worlds but they weren't levels the hub world wasn't a level 00:18:54.389 --> 00:19:00.209 that you played in if you know what i mean it was a it was a different screen whereas this is you know. 00:19:00.849 --> 00:19:06.289 Mario operates and functions in this hub world the same way he functions in 00:19:06.289 --> 00:19:09.409 the levels and i think that's that's kind of the distinct difference for me, 00:19:09.869 --> 00:19:13.631 yeah yeah that's that's more what i'm talking about yeah and you see that with 00:19:13.875 --> 00:19:17.959 you know like other games that came after right with stuff like spyro

and and 00:19:17.959 --> 00:19:21.789 even racing games you know like so well some of the like crash bandicoots had 00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:23.749 hub worlds and stuff didn't they um, 00:19:24.358 --> 00:19:27.441 or had some version of a hub world that you were jumping to levels from. 00:19:28.300 --> 00:19:31.703 Rather than just a map but now i felt that the big sort of 00:19:31.999 --> 00:19:36.764 difference came when you actually enter a level and in a 2d mario obviously 00:19:36.764 --> 00:19:40.254 for all that time of its existence before it was go from point a to point b 00:19:40.254 --> 00:19:43.644 get to the end overcome the challenges and it was more like a very linear sort 00:19:43.644 --> 00:19:46.030 of experience but you could tackle the challenges in 00:19:46.436 --> 00:19:50.434 usually a multitude of ways depending on how the level was built but this them 00:19:50.434 --> 00:19:54.714 they're more sandboxing they're like little sandbox levels that have an amount 00:19:54.714 --> 00:19:59.044 of objectives within that some of them are present like at the same time. 00:19:59.260 --> 00:20:03.234 The first star I got was for freeing the chain chompling in the first level 00:20:03.234 --> 00:20:07.704 rather than doing, I think I got three stars before I did the first or two stars 00:20:07.704 --> 00:20:12.127 before I did the, what the level wanted me to do, which is just walk through the level. 00:20:12.348 --> 00:20:15.114 And it's those first, like that sort of like first star was just like, 00:20:15.114 --> 00:20:17.114 oh look, this is what the level looks like. 00:20:17.114 --> 00:20:20.484 Here's the end. And now you can go back and do all the other stuff. 00:20:20.484 --> 00:20:24.364 Well, I felt myself more interested and going and doing exploring and finding 00:20:24.364 --> 00:20:28.094 the bits and bobs to get and that that was such that's such a different experience 00:20:28.094 --> 00:20:31.964 isn't it from what mario was known for at the time yeah you're taking you're 00:20:32.004 --> 00:20:34.959 taking something like super mario brothers particularly 00:20:35.365 --> 00:20:40.602 where it's kind of left to right and now you're entering a level and there are not just. 00:20:41.324 --> 00:20:45.755 Not just one objective that isn't just get to the flag and you know pull yeah pull it up 00:20:46.173 --> 00:20:49.584 but it's also there are other things to do and other things that will exit the 00:20:49.584 --> 00:20:54.164 level for you now i know there were some different exits in super mario world 00:20:54.164 --> 00:20:57.365 you know you could find secret exits that that would open other levels 00:20:57.753 --> 00:21:01.724 you know and and of course you had warp holes that could take you to later levels 00:21:01.724 --> 00:21:05.548 in super mario brothers and stuff but it's it's about the objective specifically, 00:21:06.007 --> 00:21:11.454 yeah and as someone i didn't play super mario odyssey too long ago

and and it 00:21:11.454 --> 00:21:16.131 really feels like that game isn't an evolution of this concept directly. 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:19.045 It feels almost, for me, it almost feels like a, 00:21:19.532 --> 00:21:24.169 a bit of a sequel to super mario 64 in in some way there's a lot of um there's 00:21:24.169 --> 00:21:26.169 a lot of variety in the gameplay as well and, 00:21:26.629 --> 00:21:30.103 because of this new 3d space they really could really feel, 00:21:30.556 --> 00:21:34.279 through the objectives how they were playing with it like right we've built 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:40.569 this really nice system with the these new camera controls it's a lot more fluid to play 00:21:40.929 --> 00:21:43.749 we've got all these different actions you can take and this different movement 00:21:43.749 --> 00:21:45.649 system and how you're going to get from point a to point b, 00:21:46.305 --> 00:21:50.389 we've got non-linear levels what can we do in this space and a lot of the time 00:21:50.389 --> 00:21:53.379 when you jump into a level you're like oh well this time it's a race this time 00:21:53.379 --> 00:21:56.661 it's sliding down a slide and you're on your belly and it's completely different game 00:21:56.845 --> 00:22:00.039 let alone anything else it's like collect a certain amount of coins which is 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:01.611 more like a treasure hunt or, 00:22:02.099 --> 00:22:07.409 you know find a secret or fly around or like the variety penguin or whatever 00:22:07.409 --> 00:22:10.449 i've lost my baby yeah throw it off the edge of the map and giggle, you know. 00:22:11.203 --> 00:22:16.370 Now, the variety of gameplay is wild. 00:22:16.487 --> 00:22:19.629 Considering that they came from something so linear and went into this, 00:22:19.629 --> 00:22:22.029 it's just like, oh, they just blew the doors open and just went, 00:22:22.029 --> 00:22:23.149 right, we are doing everything. 00:22:23.569 --> 00:22:27.089 This is what 3D platformers are now. This is all the actions you can take. 00:22:27.089 --> 00:22:29.969 This is all the variety of gameplay within it. Yeah, and it's like, 00:22:29.969 --> 00:22:34.329 we spoke about the jumping, but it's, you know, I think they introduced punching 00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:37.924 and kicking, you know, and things like that. And also being able to grab, 00:22:38.552 --> 00:22:41.878 pick things i mean you could pick things in earlier super marios and stuff but 00:22:42.174 --> 00:22:46.361 but like i think grabbing it in a 3d context you know the like the infamous 00:22:46.361 --> 00:22:49.411 conclusion where you fight bowser and you can grab his tail and you're using 00:22:49.411 --> 00:22:52.861 the analog stick to spin and you're spinning him down on the spot that's that's 00:22:52.861 --> 00:22:55.339 a perfect demonstration of what's great about the 00:22:55.780 --> 00:22:59.631 the evolution of 3d in this game you know taking it into a three-dimensional 00:22:59.631 --> 00:23:03.081 space and being able to do stuff like that i mean it's i mean it really was 00:23:03.081 --> 00:23:05.651 like a fantastic system seller and of 00:23:06.031 --> 00:23:10.136 for the nintendo 64 in that regard and the controller itself yeah definitely 00:23:10.403 --> 00:23:13.781 another one part of the mechanics you know the ground pound was innovated in 00:23:13.781 --> 00:23:16.011 this so they use that and that's used 00:23:16.371 --> 00:23:19.436 in other games in different forms as well but the ground pound is something 00:23:19.656 --> 00:23:23.891 it's just another way to experiment with the world so you see things now and 00:23:23.891 --> 00:23:26.089 i mean i'm seeing this with this. 00:23:26.542 --> 00:23:31.721 Like i guess it's kind of like miyamoto led studios within nintendo this this 00:23:31.721 --> 00:23:36.381 desire of giving you a bunch of mechanics that are actually tools that you can 00:23:36.381 --> 00:23:40.479 experiment with the world in and we we've spoke we covered the first zelda 00:23:40.896 --> 00:23:46.461 the nes one and and you and again that's a miyamoto game and you can see the 00:23:46.461 --> 00:23:50.031 philosophy from that game you can see it present in this one even though it's 00:23:50.031 --> 00:23:54.961 zelda and mario and they're two different franchises one's a platformer one's more like an adventure 00:23:55.315 --> 00:23:58.971 puzzler yeah but and i mean you see that i mean i mentioned odyssey but you 00:23:58.971 --> 00:24:02.491 can see it in breath of the wild taking the mechanics and just exploring and 00:24:02.491 --> 00:24:07.613 interacting that kind of sandbox element and i guess that's part of his design philosophy isn't it 00:24:07.997 --> 00:24:11.811 you know clearly you know it's it's play but it's experimenting it's sandbox 00:24:12.171 --> 00:24:14.831 and i think there's something to that i think i think there's definitely they're 00:24:14.831 --> 00:24:19.096 retaining because they used to be a games or toy or card company 00:24:19.461 --> 00:24:22.981 and they're retaining that element of play you know they're not even though 00:24:22.981 --> 00:24:27.351 they're innovating things such as camera controls, which is kind of, 00:24:28.024 --> 00:24:30.764 being drawn perhaps from a cinematic space, 00:24:31.471 --> 00:24:36.476 they're still retaining this key element of play that comes with games or video games, you know? 00:24:36.952 --> 00:24:41.769 And it's an interesting blend. Yeah, absolutely. Discovery is a great sort of, 00:24:42.409 --> 00:24:47.079 euphoric tool where you can give a player a sense of accomplishment through 00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.009 them. You just give them... 00:24:49.849 --> 00:24:54.239 We've talked about tutorialization in games before and we've talked a lot away 00:24:54.239 --> 00:24:57.947 from the podcast about how games these days hold your hand quite massively, 00:24:58.081 --> 00:25:01.749 especially like AAA titles are so

afraid of people not touching 00:25:02.049 --> 00:25:06.529 content that they will paint yellow triangles pointing in the direction of where 00:25:06.529 --> 00:25:07.943 you need to go, for example. 00:25:08.210 --> 00:25:11.415 I like the yellow paint on things that are climbable. Exactly. Yeah. 00:25:11.815 --> 00:25:16.549 Or like, you know, you've got a fart line to follow. But at most in this game, 00:25:16.929 --> 00:25:20.429 I don't like the tutorialization for about half of it in this game. 00:25:20.429 --> 00:25:23.809 I don't like the signs that they give you because it's a lot of text in a small 00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:27.249 space that is thrown at you and it's usually about stuff you don't need to know yet. 00:25:27.249 --> 00:25:31.199 But then the other half of the tutorialization comes in through the way that 00:25:31.199 --> 00:25:34.529 the game presents challenges to you, which I really like, which is very Portal-esque 00:25:34.569 --> 00:25:38.149 because we spoke about it in the Portal 2 episode where the whole first. 00:25:38.901 --> 00:25:43.629 Boss in Mario is to beat that bomb and you pick him up. 00:25:43.629 --> 00:25:46.839 So you learn, pick up the enemy and you have to learn it to progress. 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:49.489 And it doesn't teach you that unless you read a sign. 00:25:49.767 --> 00:25:53.639 It doesn't may stop you and go, hold on a minute, you must throw to do whatever. 00:25:53.639 --> 00:25:54.632 It's just like, just figure it out. 00:25:54.899 --> 00:25:58.889 And it doesn't hold your hand too much. It's just like the player will figure 00:25:58.889 --> 00:26:02.119 it out at some point on how to beat him. Yeah, and the next boss you face, 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:04.889 you beat with a ground pound. Exactly. Basically, you're just learning these 00:26:04.889 --> 00:26:09.069 mechanics through the gameplay, which is always a pleasure. 00:26:09.626 --> 00:26:15.348 I did find a little bit of antithesis to what we've been saying in that the 00:26:15.348 --> 00:26:17.548 boss fights reminded me of it, which is all I'm talking about now, 00:26:17.548 --> 00:26:19.071 just before I forget. Yeah, no, it is. 00:26:19.222 --> 00:26:22.240 How the design of this game is all about discovery, exploration, 00:26:22.652 --> 00:26:26.498 non-linearity in a lot of ways of like, you know, finding secrets and finding 00:26:26.498 --> 00:26:28.730 your own way to achieve the tasks. 00:26:28.870 --> 00:26:32.910 There was a few times the game physically stopped me and told me no, 00:26:33.090 --> 00:26:35.618 like truly just went, no, you cannot do that. 00:26:35.658 --> 00:26:37.966 Here's a ball of text telling you, you cannot do that. 00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:42.538 The two examples was that first boss fight i threw him off the level you know 00:26:42.538 --> 00:26:46.347 and then we're like no you can't do that you've got to throw him inside the thing like what what, 00:26:46.847 --> 00:26:50.753 it's harder for me to

do this to get into the edge and throw him than it is, 00:26:51.206 --> 00:26:55.218 to do it so i'm not allowed to do that okay i'll do it your way and then i did 00:26:55.218 --> 00:26:57.358 a race but the race you're 00:26:57.718 --> 00:27:01.353 you unlock these this new way to travel around the level from these cannons 00:27:01.667 --> 00:27:05.458 in that first level you can jump into and fire yourself so i use the cannons 00:27:05.458 --> 00:27:08.368 to win the race and the game was like no no you might have gotten to the end 00:27:08.368 --> 00:27:11.938 first but you're not supposed to do that so go back and do it the way we want 00:27:11.938 --> 00:27:14.676 you to do it and i found that really like what the hell. 00:27:16.238 --> 00:27:20.388 What what do you mean i can't do you you gave me this tool yeah but you need 00:27:20.388 --> 00:27:23.148 to get the star off the bomb guys so it's no good throwing him off the cliff 00:27:23.148 --> 00:27:27.383 is it you need to get the star you can't you've got to pick up his corpse but i want the fight. 00:27:28.578 --> 00:27:33.328 Do you know i'm just playing yeah i i understand what you're um there's a few 00:27:33.328 --> 00:27:37.391 of those that popped cropped up of these moments of just like the game actually 00:27:37.617 --> 00:27:40.670 it wasn't just like oh this didn't work let me try something else 00:27:41.077 --> 00:27:43.730 the game physically stopped me and said no don't do that, 00:27:44.297 --> 00:27:47.368 And I found that very jarring. That really put me off, to be honest. 00:27:47.746 --> 00:27:52.505 I think when it puts you in a kind of rigid moment of the game, 00:27:52.505 --> 00:27:57.562 like a more instanced moment. So let's say it's win a race or beat this boss. 00:27:57.951 --> 00:28:02.884 I think that's when it takes, that's when it wants you to complete it in a certain way. 00:28:03.099 --> 00:28:08.215 I think, whereas when it's in the level and it's about exploring that level 00:28:08.215 --> 00:28:10.744 and it's the sandbox part of the level, not like when 00:28:11.139 --> 00:28:14.245 you imagine like a boss fight and it's like okay now there's flames all around 00:28:14.245 --> 00:28:17.685 the ring and it's like fight time they want you in that moment and they want 00:28:17.685 --> 00:28:22.235 you to play it a certain way doesn't separate those moments though to teach you that or tell you that, 00:28:22.775 --> 00:28:26.565 it gives you that feedback it doesn't it puts the race in the level you've been 00:28:26.565 --> 00:28:30.034 exploring previously it puts the boss fight in the level that you've been exploring, 00:28:30.695 --> 00:28:33.673 you as the player have no inclination that 00:28:33.871 --> 00:28:37.695 you are doing something wrong and i went back and i read the text of the guy 00:28:37.695 --> 00:28:41.515 talking just to make sure i hadn't missed a bit of dialogue saying hey we are 00:28:41.515 --> 00:28:45.365 going to run this race these are the checkpoints go to the end now none of that 00:28:45.365 --> 00:28:46.553 it was just beat me to this 00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:49.955 this flag and i was like okay cool i'll go beat you to the flag oh i got here 00:28:49.955 --> 00:28:51.887 first i'm not allowed fuck me i guess. 00:28:53.983 --> 00:28:56.865 Anyway i just wanted to bring that up because i thought that was really jarring 00:28:56.865 --> 00:29:00.545 considering the philosophy that seems to go into the rest of the game and i 00:29:00.545 --> 00:29:04.275 didn't encounter that in for example like zelda there was no moment in zelda 00:29:04.275 --> 00:29:05.735 where the game stops you and goes no no, 00:29:06.415 --> 00:29:09.587 you're not you're not supposed to use the bomb here like i know the bomb worked 00:29:09.796 --> 00:29:13.545 you technically succeeded but no no no we're going to respawn the boss and you're 00:29:13.545 --> 00:29:15.995 going to do it without the bomb now yeah i wonder if that's um, 00:29:16.611 --> 00:29:20.765 i wonder if that's the challenges of the pivot to 3d where you know in a three-dimensional 00:29:20.765 --> 00:29:25.516 space where more thing the player can do more things that even surprise 00:29:25.928 --> 00:29:29.125 i say surprise the developer they were aware of it which is why they made you 00:29:29.125 --> 00:29:33.285 do it again but here's the thing does it matter should it have mattered to those 00:29:33.285 --> 00:29:37.025 developers that i used the cannons to finish the race. 00:29:37.655 --> 00:29:41.085 To stop me and know that I haven't finished the race in the way they wanted 00:29:41.085 --> 00:29:45.035 me to, they had to do extra work. It wasn't just... 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:51.717 Player is on level player starts race player reaches the end the flag it's they've 00:29:51.717 --> 00:29:56.267 got secret checkpoints along the levels or something that yeah tells the game 00:29:56.267 --> 00:29:57.514 that you've traveled the path, 00:29:57.973 --> 00:30:03.975 i think ultimately they want they want you to win it earnestly perhaps because later on, 00:30:04.417 --> 00:30:08.247 you are going to need to know how to do that and if you won it in a different 00:30:08.247 --> 00:30:12.807 way then you may not have learned that that process if that makes sense maybe 00:30:12.807 --> 00:30:14.761 that's probably the the thinking here we 00:30:15.127 --> 00:30:20.560 we want them to learn how to slide down like this especially with like the camera and everything else, 00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:25.397 if they maybe if they cheese it they might not learn there's nothing to learn 00:30:25.397 --> 00:30:28.607 in that level that you didn't learn through the first bit of traveling up to 00:30:28.607 --> 00:30:29.607 that point so there's not, 00:30:30.187 --> 00:30:34.647 i don't necessarily agree but that maybe that's the logic right yeah exactly 00:30:34.647 --> 00:30:38.537 i was going to say it's not necessarily the

answer that they should have come 00:30:38.537 --> 00:30:40.795 to but maybe it was the logic of, 00:30:41.271 --> 00:30:44.667 well you might be able to cheese this first one but you can't cheese the other 00:30:44.667 --> 00:30:48.287 one so you need to learn to do it properly but then again. 00:30:49.007 --> 00:30:54.867 Why allow me to go into the like I know future because I played a lot of Sunshine growing up 00:30:55.187 --> 00:30:59.787 Mario Sunshine I know when you load a level they change the instance of the 00:30:59.787 --> 00:31:03.407 level a little bit and they do it in this so once you beat the first boss you 00:31:03.407 --> 00:31:07.787 unlock the cannons So why not, when I load up the race, put the cannons back 00:31:07.787 --> 00:31:10.011 in the ground? Just revert it to that previous... 00:31:10.947 --> 00:31:13.715 Why is it an option there if you don't want the player to touch it? 00:31:14.365 --> 00:31:17.737 It's an interesting thought. Yeah, I wonder if that was... I mean, 00:31:17.737 --> 00:31:20.692 it clearly wasn't an oversight because if someone does it, they stop them. 00:31:21.041 --> 00:31:24.067 But I wonder if it was a time constraints thing or something where they needed to... 00:31:24.387 --> 00:31:27.827 Well, that's always the excuse, isn't it? There's time constraints stuff. 00:31:27.827 --> 00:31:30.847 We've said that in every episode. Well, maybe it was time constraints. 00:31:31.307 --> 00:31:35.912 Well, the only thing that makes me think Something like that is just the fact that they do stop you. 00:31:36.092 --> 00:31:39.801 You know, obviously what you've thought of is a solution and it makes sense. 00:31:40.248 --> 00:31:46.664 So regardless of the reason for it, it's a small complaint in an otherwise very 00:31:46.664 --> 00:31:51.614 good game, to be fair. So it was just a moment of friction there between me 00:31:51.614 --> 00:31:53.695 and the game that I didn't quite enjoy. 00:31:53.858 --> 00:31:58.937 And it reminded me of, because in fact, what I wanted to do was finish that level completely. 00:31:59.135 --> 00:32:04.614 And I couldn't do it because I didn't have 10 stars and didn't unlock the hat 00:32:04.614 --> 00:32:06.304 with wings, I think, or something. 00:32:06.304 --> 00:32:12.494 Because you need the red box to unlock to do that, the last star that I hadn't done. 00:32:12.494 --> 00:32:16.914 The tower of the wing cap. Yeah, I needed the wing cap to get the last star 00:32:16.914 --> 00:32:19.984 on the first level to go, right, I'm done with that. Let's move on to the next 00:32:19.984 --> 00:32:21.606 one. And that was just something I wanted to do. 00:32:22.529 --> 00:32:27.164 But then it was like, maybe I misread it when it popped up saying, 00:32:27.164 --> 00:32:31.444 hey, there's a secret switch you have to click to unlock this box. 00:32:31.444 --> 00:32:34.714 So I must have spent 20 minutes wandering around that bloody level looking for 00:32:34.714 --> 00:32:38.184 a secret switch, thinking i've been everywhere where is it is it off the edge 00:32:38.184 --> 00:32:41.784 of the map trying to shoot myself off the edge of the map only to pop onto google 00:32:41.784 --> 00:32:44.504 really quick and find out that the switch isn't it's not a, 00:32:44.984 --> 00:32:46.584 thing you unlock per level it's 00:32:46.584 --> 00:32:50.072 a thing you unlock for the whole game and it's in the castle somewhere 00:32:50.444 --> 00:32:54.414 and i was like oh okay so i've wasted my time maybe that's a me problem there 00:32:54.722 --> 00:32:58.874 but we discussed this didn't we where you have this sort of metroidvania sort 00:32:58.874 --> 00:33:01.073 of progression system like this there is a sort of 00:33:01.415 --> 00:33:06.802 quote-unquote meta progression through mario where you will not unlock areas of the castle through 00:33:07.005 --> 00:33:10.924 obtaining stars and there are secrets to be found and then there's this cap 00:33:10.924 --> 00:33:14.724 this power you need to unlock to access something from an earlier level so you 00:33:14.724 --> 00:33:19.274 have to go back on yourself to an early level to then experience this bit of 00:33:19.274 --> 00:33:20.502 content that was put there 00:33:20.862 --> 00:33:23.451 And we discussed this in conjunction with like Spyro 2, didn't we, 00:33:23.451 --> 00:33:25.737 where you unlock swimming and climbing and such? 00:33:25.958 --> 00:33:30.051 Yeah. And you have to come back to levels. And I think you made a great point 00:33:30.051 --> 00:33:31.941 how something like this, 00:33:32.266 --> 00:33:36.939 where in Metroidvania games, when you unlock a new power and come back to areas, 00:33:37.154 --> 00:33:41.357 you sort of look at those areas in a new way and you experience those areas in a new way. 00:33:42.117 --> 00:33:44.931 And sort of have a fresh take on the zone. 00:33:44.931 --> 00:33:49.411 Whereas something like I experienced in Spyro 2 especially, and in this game 00:33:49.411 --> 00:33:54.244 a little bit, where it's not I'm experiencing this level in a new way. 00:33:54.488 --> 00:33:57.106 It's I'm being told I can't do this yet. 00:33:57.379 --> 00:34:01.251 I have to come back later to then play the hat bit. And it's... 00:34:01.745 --> 00:34:06.061 For me, it was like, well, why not just have the HAP stuff later on so I don't 00:34:06.061 --> 00:34:09.338 have to come back here to fly around this level as well. 00:34:09.466 --> 00:34:13.491 It's about reusing content and stuff like that, but there's a lot of that sort 00:34:13.491 --> 00:34:18.071 of design in a game I don't enjoy. I don't enjoy it when you are playing a game 00:34:18.071 --> 00:34:22.631 and it says you need this power to play this content. And it's like, 00:34:22.631 --> 00:34:23.951 oh, so I have to come back. Great. 00:34:24.471 --> 00:34:29.571 I can't finish this now and now move on. I think what works for me in Super 00:34:29.571 --> 00:34:33.931 Mario 64

is a lot of secret content also exists in the castle itself, 00:34:33.931 --> 00:34:35.117 which is kind of the hub world. 00:34:35.250 --> 00:34:40.111 So you walk around those little grounds at the beginning and you see things 00:34:40.111 --> 00:34:46.061 that you just can't interact with properly yet, but you make a mental note of those things. 00:34:46.061 --> 00:34:49.211 So when you're exploring, you're coming in and out of levels and you're going 00:34:49.211 --> 00:34:53.891 to this hub world, when you do unlock new things or when you do gain new powers 00:34:53.891 --> 00:34:56.651 or whatever, you have a mental note of this hub world already, 00:34:56.811 --> 00:34:59.731 like, oh, I can go back to the drawbridge under the water. 00:34:59.731 --> 00:35:03.931 Yeah that's the hub though yes yeah but i think that the hub is a great place to, 00:35:04.411 --> 00:35:09.361 utilize those additions even though it's you've already been here it's yeah 00:35:09.361 --> 00:35:12.971 you are in that world aren't you when you revisit that area several times you're 00:35:12.971 --> 00:35:16.401 always going to be coming back to the hub world yeah i do think there's it's 00:35:16.401 --> 00:35:19.031 it's i think because it's in the hub world when you did it 00:35:19.411 --> 00:35:21.751 i think i went to like a courtyard with the 00:35:22.151 --> 00:35:25.851 star statue or something and there's a few signposts and whatnot and a couple 00:35:25.851 --> 00:35:29.241 of them might have things that reference stuff that you don't have yet i experience 00:35:29.241 --> 00:35:33.424 that a lot too where it's like here's how to fly with the red hat i don't have that. 00:35:34.799 --> 00:35:38.701 I don't care but then you get a bit excited there's a red hat or there's a wing 00:35:38.701 --> 00:35:43.371 cap or something you know like yeah there's something to look forward to moving forward yeah it's uh, 00:35:44.091 --> 00:35:49.731 it's it's or dread or dread yeah dread more controls i remember those that are 00:35:49.731 --> 00:35:54.856 those hat levels being quite hard for uh the young lad that played it. 00:35:55.829 --> 00:35:58.769 When i was a boy like those those were not easy for a 00:35:59.189 --> 00:36:02.749 wee baby josh you mentioned to me when we were playing the game because we message 00:36:02.749 --> 00:36:07.069 each other sometimes we don't like spoil each other's viewpoints too much but 00:36:07.069 --> 00:36:11.734 we occasionally throw a line or two and you mentioned to me about some challenges with the camera, 00:36:12.209 --> 00:36:15.289 yeah we've seen since looked up that the camera's a bit of a, 00:36:15.789 --> 00:36:19.149 was a point of what's the word i'm looking for criticism when it was released 00:36:19.149 --> 00:36:22.499 i look on the wikipedia stuff and reception to the camera was not because it 00:36:22.499 --> 00:36:25.209 is the clunkiest part of the game isn't it there's a lot of the time with the 00:36:25.209

--> 00:36:28.950 cameras fighting you i don't know what you experienced what was your experience with the camera 00:36:29.194 --> 00:36:31.277 i think because it's buttons 00:36:31.573 --> 00:36:35.794 and it's not at this point an analog stick i do think it has its challenges 00:36:36.095 --> 00:36:39.579 it's also inverted isn't it so it's like left and it'll go a different way like 00:36:39.579 --> 00:36:43.939 rotate round weirdly none of that was the problem i had with it but i i think 00:36:43.939 --> 00:36:45.629 if it was because it's kind of 00:36:46.049 --> 00:36:50.469 it turns in corners doesn't it like quarters yeah if uh if i'm right and there's 00:36:50.469 --> 00:36:53.489 also a button that kind of brings you close to mario, 00:36:54.049 --> 00:36:58.169 yeah you get almost you get like as close to first person they're willing to give you, 00:36:58.789 --> 00:37:02.169 a way to look it's a way to look up and down isn't it really yeah i mean i do 00:37:02.169 --> 00:37:04.809 have to say like it's it's great to be able like 00:37:05.169 --> 00:37:10.159 because it's early 3d as well it's still great to see how expressive mario is 00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.839 in everything that he does like all these different jumps and everything it 00:37:12.839 --> 00:37:17.769 doesn't feel like ugly 3d animation There's personality present in here. 00:37:18.065 --> 00:37:21.890 The flow of the way you move is brilliant. It's so good. 00:37:23.132 --> 00:37:25.483 The thing I found with the camera that was quite frustrating, 00:37:26.093 --> 00:37:28.670 there was two things. First of all, it kept making a noise at me every time 00:37:28.670 --> 00:37:29.970 I turned it, and I was like, shut up. 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:36.460 My God. I don't need a beep or a swoosh every time I want to turn the camera 00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:38.420 slightly. That was driving me nuts. 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:44.100 And then the other thing was, they've got two different camera systems in the 00:37:44.100 --> 00:37:45.050 game, haven't they really? 00:37:45.050 --> 00:37:50.439 They've got a sort of hybrid between giving the player control, like. 00:37:51.066 --> 00:37:54.520 Being able to shift it left and right and rotate the camera 360 00:37:54.752 --> 00:37:57.968 and then they have set camera points for certain parts of the levels 00:37:58.148 --> 00:38:03.947 and those two systems collide a lot i found it quite frustrating to be walking around 00:38:04.098 --> 00:38:07.940 having full control of my camera and then having it stolen off me for a moment 00:38:07.940 --> 00:38:11.410 completely in the opposite so maybe i'm turning the camera left to look left 00:38:11.410 --> 00:38:14.820 then i take one step forward and it snaps the camera around to the left looking 00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:17.171 to the right i'm like no no i was trying to look left 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:21.761 i was trying to look where i'm going and the camera kept being taken from me 00:38:22.121 --> 00:38:25.370 to the point where again i keep using the first level as a lot of reference 00:38:25.370 --> 00:38:27.270 but it's my first experience of those things 00:38:27.531 --> 00:38:31.510 there was a certain area on that first level that is sort of off to the left 00:38:31.510 --> 00:38:32.918 off the beaten path a little bit 00:38:33.081 --> 00:38:37.020 to get the camera to look at it without walking into it felt impossible for 00:38:37.020 --> 00:38:39.750 me for a moment because it was like it would not let me turn the camera any 00:38:39.750 --> 00:38:42.930 further it's like no you can't turn more that way the camera is now here fixed 00:38:42.930 --> 00:38:47.420 here you've got this sort of like 120 angle that you can flick a little bit in between there. 00:38:47.420 --> 00:38:51.640 I then took three steps away further into the level where it then gave me bad 00:38:51.640 --> 00:38:54.571 control of the camera and I could turn the camera the whole way around and look at it. 00:38:54.949 --> 00:38:57.435 And it was like, what is this little anchor point for the camera here? 00:38:57.435 --> 00:39:01.555 Get it gone. What are we doing? Get out of here. Just give me control of the camera. 00:39:03.152 --> 00:39:05.462 And that was really frustrating for me because it was just like, 00:39:05.596 --> 00:39:07.146 I wish you'd have done one or the other. 00:39:07.465 --> 00:39:12.195 Either give me control or don't give me control. Don't give me a little bit 00:39:12.195 --> 00:39:14.471 of both and keep having them fight. 00:39:14.692 --> 00:39:18.325 Yeah, I think it's finding that I can understand why they want to, 00:39:18.325 --> 00:39:23.075 in certain moments, take control of the camera so that they can do some like 00:39:23.075 --> 00:39:26.121 quite specific platform elements perhaps, 00:39:26.695 --> 00:39:30.695 through direction but if when it goes into those moments i didn't test it enough now i'm, 00:39:31.255 --> 00:39:34.895 like i'm trying to think about it is it just you can also still change the camera 00:39:34.895 --> 00:39:39.635 but it's just more fixed it becomes limited you could sort of wiggle it like, 00:39:40.175 --> 00:39:44.435 maybe one or two clicks left or right and they've got more it's more defined 00:39:44.435 --> 00:39:47.825 it's almost like you're changing the camera you're not rotating it a traditional 00:39:47.825 --> 00:39:50.495 way, you're just changing the camera angle, like specifically. 00:39:51.795 --> 00:39:55.971 Sort of. It's the same rotation as you'd expect when the camera's behind Mario, 00:39:56.186 --> 00:39:59.175 but it's now off to one side or something or from a specific angle. 00:39:59.175 --> 00:40:02.625 Yeah, it's not from behind third person. It's now from an angle. 00:40:02.625 --> 00:40:06.890 But later Mario, they clearly learned from this because later Mario games do give you both, 00:40:07.372 --> 00:40:11.167 where there are sections of the game where

you cannot move the camera and it 00:40:11.167 --> 00:40:12.910 gives you a fixed perspective. 00:40:13.049 --> 00:40:15.497 And there are sections of the game where you fully have control of the camera. 00:40:15.497 --> 00:40:19.977 It never tries to do both at the same time, which this game does sometimes. 00:40:19.977 --> 00:40:23.497 And usually when the camera is taken from you, like I have lots of memories 00:40:23.497 --> 00:40:27.357 of Sunshine, that was my main Mario game growing up, there are sections of that 00:40:27.357 --> 00:40:31.127 game where the camera is like, let's say for example you go underground into 00:40:31.127 --> 00:40:32.687 the sewer system underneath, 00:40:33.247 --> 00:40:38.847 the hub world, the camera goes top down and follows your shadow underneath and you've got the. 00:40:39.627 --> 00:40:43.517 Music playing, or there's certain levels where it takes a zoomed out almost 00:40:43.517 --> 00:40:47.847 isometric angle or a side-on angle, and it's like, oh, this is a special level 00:40:47.847 --> 00:40:50.779 that has a special camera angle, and there's a reason we're doing it, 00:40:51.104 --> 00:40:54.965 is to add difficulty or add a certain challenge to this, 00:40:55.453 --> 00:40:59.848 level by using the camera to add that challenge and i do feel like they learned 00:40:59.848 --> 00:41:03.908 that from this game yeah and that's utilized brilliantly sunshine was gamecube 00:41:03.908 --> 00:41:06.911 wasn't it yes yeah i was just trying to order the, 00:41:07.370 --> 00:41:10.208 ones in my head because sunshine was gamecube galaxy was we 00:41:10.548 --> 00:41:14.718 which is and then unfortunate for me because sunshine was my main mario game 00:41:14.718 --> 00:41:19.478 i never clicked with another mario game because it's so it's like 64 it's like 00:41:19.478 --> 00:41:24.203 elevated 64 obviously developed more and older and better system and stuff. 00:41:24.395 --> 00:41:29.388 Plus the flood mechanic with your little water pump. 00:41:29.728 --> 00:41:33.408 And that game, I really liked everything about that game growing up. 00:41:33.408 --> 00:41:37.328 So whenever I played any other Mario game, I was like, what the hell? Where's my hover? 00:41:38.545 --> 00:41:41.978 Where's my water gun to shoot people with? Why aren't the levels laid out in 00:41:41.978 --> 00:41:46.948 the way that I like them laid out? Why aren't I exploring a hub world in this one? 00:41:47.608 --> 00:41:50.265 Like I played Galaxy afterwards and I just bounced right off it. 00:41:50.700 --> 00:41:56.068 I was like, nope. No, thank you. I wanted to just go back to the camera element as well in 64. 00:41:56.068 --> 00:42:00.948 And I wonder if, like, I was thinking about the camera in 64 and also what you 00:42:00.948 --> 00:42:04.988 said about breaking up into different moments and the guy in the cloud, 00:42:04.988 --> 00:42:07.288 is it Latvia or something? 00:42:07.828 --> 00:42:09.973 Lakituba? That's a country, yes. 00:42:10.628 --> 00:42:13.458 What is the chap's name with the cloud and the fishing map? It's where you can 00:42:13.458 --> 00:42:16.888 do come from. I'm just putting in, I'm trying to get him now. Lakitu. 00:42:17.248 --> 00:42:20.740 Lakitu. Right. That's the, thank you very much, Gesundheit. 00:42:21.408 --> 00:42:23.788 The point about the camera I was going to make there is they, 00:42:24.108 --> 00:42:26.828 I think when I, when I play, you see it quite early on as well, 00:42:26.828 --> 00:42:29.608 when you're going around the mountain, you've got the balls or whatever, 00:42:29.608 --> 00:42:32.469 and then you've also got going up the snowy thing and stuff like that. 00:42:33.088 --> 00:42:36.598 I think that they were trying like, cause they used him with a camera as though 00:42:36.598 --> 00:42:41.252 it was like part of a TV thing or a report on the news or whatever of Mario and what's happening. 00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:45.142 I wonder if what their intent with that was to try and do, and with the sound 00:42:45.142 --> 00:42:50.512 effect of the rotation, I think maybe because people weren't familiar with the 00:42:50.512 --> 00:42:53.106 camera being controlled by the player at the time, 00:42:53.355 --> 00:42:57.425 I wonder if they were trying to contextualize it in a way that people would understand. 00:42:58.122 --> 00:43:00.292 The camera moves and the camera functions. 00:43:00.292 --> 00:43:04.617 So when you're going around and it's changed the camera to something that's 00:43:04.733 --> 00:43:09.282 not behind anymore, it's now a perspective that you might get on like a news 00:43:09.282 --> 00:43:12.002 report, you know, if someone's like, and there's a man climbing a building and 00:43:12.002 --> 00:43:13.312 it's on fire, you know, that kind of thing. 00:43:13.312 --> 00:43:17.718 And it's got this shot of them in a helicopter filming or, you know, some rubbish like that. 00:43:18.130 --> 00:43:22.072 But like, you've got this angle. I wonder if the idea of wrapping it up in a 00:43:22.072 --> 00:43:24.109 kind of recording like that, 00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:29.086 is to help people kind of contextualize it in their own mind so that they can 00:43:29.086 --> 00:43:29.956 understand these controls. 00:43:29.956 --> 00:43:33.645 Because you've got to understand, I suppose, to jump back into this time period, 00:43:33.842 --> 00:43:37.566 like camera controls for this, it's brand new. 00:43:37.566 --> 00:43:42.366 People aren't familiar with how this works. It might feel very alien and strange 00:43:42.366 --> 00:43:43.906 to people, especially at the beginning. 00:43:43.906 --> 00:43:47.926 So I think by providing them with something familiar, like contextualizing it 00:43:47.926 --> 00:43:52.526 with something familiar that they can associate with and kind of understand 00:43:52.526 --> 00:43:55.303 the framework of, I think it's a nice way of kind of 00:43:55.663 --> 00:44:00.106 offering that little olive branch

or that connecting piece to kind of help people 00:44:00.286 --> 00:44:02.642 with understanding the rotation elements and things. 00:44:02.817 --> 00:44:06.626 And perhaps the sound, you know, you spoke about there being two separate kind 00:44:06.626 --> 00:44:08.603 of views. There's the behind that you can rotate. 00:44:08.818 --> 00:44:12.866 And then there's the viewpoint when you're going up something a bit more curated, 00:44:12.866 --> 00:44:14.251 shall we say, by the designers. 00:44:14.582 --> 00:44:18.442 Maybe that sound effect exists to illustrate to the player that this, 00:44:18.802 --> 00:44:23.057 you've manually pressed that compared to we're now changing the camera. 00:44:23.417 --> 00:44:25.696 Does that make sense? Like, oh, did I fat finger that? You know, 00:44:25.696 --> 00:44:26.876 little things like that, perhaps. 00:44:27.452 --> 00:44:30.766 There might have been some thought process there in wrapping it up in a certain 00:44:30.766 --> 00:44:34.266 way. And then also, you know, because the sound effect is an indicator to the 00:44:34.266 --> 00:44:37.288 player that there's been an input, essentially, right? 00:44:37.573 --> 00:44:41.676 So maybe they felt that was also an important part at this stage. 00:44:41.676 --> 00:44:43.646 Obviously, it's something that they haven't retained, right? 00:44:43.646 --> 00:44:46.626 So it's clearly something they've identified that isn't something that how things 00:44:46.626 --> 00:44:49.906 should continue to function. But I can understand perhaps at this moment in 00:44:49.906 --> 00:44:53.954 time, why they felt the need to put things in a certain way. 00:44:54.215 --> 00:44:56.946 And there was another thing I thought that was quite interesting that I wanted 00:44:56.946 --> 00:45:01.201 to touch on is they have wrapped it up in a kind of television broadcast style. 00:45:01.375 --> 00:45:06.176 And I wonder, like, because I was looking at, you know, Super Mario All-Stars, 00:45:06.176 --> 00:45:10.896 for example, the one on the Super Nintendo, and it's like a stage play. 00:45:10.896 --> 00:45:14.236 And there's always been like a performance element to it, you know, 00:45:14.236 --> 00:45:18.216 in this presentation. And you think of like Super Mario Brothers 2, 00:45:18.436 --> 00:45:21.543 which has like the curtains coming across and stuff. 00:45:21.804 --> 00:45:26.384 I wonder how meta this kind of Super Mario stuff really is and whether they're all just. 00:45:27.018 --> 00:45:30.651 Actors of characters and it's kind of just actually, 00:45:31.171 --> 00:45:34.661 it's a performance art you know like it's like whether it's like the characters 00:45:34.661 --> 00:45:38.381 are just playing roles and they're entertaining you through a screen you know 00:45:38.381 --> 00:45:40.231 i know it sounds a bit daft but like they present it 00:45:40.671 --> 00:45:44.201 you're in the sauce where are you fucking swimming in that shit i'm down a thread 00:45:44.201 --> 00:45:48.531 now aren't i you're right in the catch-up just going i'm down the green green 00:45:48.531 --> 00:45:55.331 shoe hole it's all actors man it's all actors Bowser's just Luigi in a turtle suit, 00:45:58.151 --> 00:46:03.651 I think yeah but I just find that the decision to shoot it as like a television 00:46:03.651 --> 00:46:05.189 thing in Super Mario 64 and then 00:46:05.607 --> 00:46:08.539 some of the Matt Super Mario Brothers stuff to do it like a stage play, 00:46:09.019 --> 00:46:13.805 I just found the entertainment aspect to like wrapping it up in that fabric 00:46:13.805 --> 00:46:16.135 as well. I know what the truth is. I figured it out. You were like, 00:46:16.135 --> 00:46:20.455 there's going to be some bold twat in 2026 who's going to play this game and 00:46:20.455 --> 00:46:22.207 he's going to hate that noise so I'm going to put it in. 00:46:22.370 --> 00:46:24.848 That's what they're doing. Are you doing the ASMR version right now? 00:46:26.543 --> 00:46:29.935 I'm looking at the audio sound and I'm like, I'm going to have to bump him up 00:46:29.935 --> 00:46:32.415 there in the edit. Well, my bad. No, it's all right. 00:46:32.855 --> 00:46:35.895 Was there anything else about Super Mario 64? I mean, the problem is we could 00:46:35.895 --> 00:46:38.788 yak for about six hours. I'm getting this sort of like... 00:46:39.154 --> 00:46:42.615 I guess, character in these podcasts, where I'm just moaning about everything, 00:46:42.975 --> 00:46:45.995 everything, what I don't like, what is criticism. 00:46:45.995 --> 00:46:49.785 It feels weird to criticize this game, consider it like using, 00:46:49.785 --> 00:46:52.945 like, as you said, you thought it was a very good point about why certain things 00:46:52.945 --> 00:46:55.193 might have been taken. And that's all fine. 00:46:55.530 --> 00:47:00.835 But I find, like, it's hard to play these games without modern sensibility coming 00:47:00.835 --> 00:47:03.499 to your head, isn't it? And like, what should be done and things like that. 00:47:03.620 --> 00:47:06.675 Because obviously we develop in a very different time to these games. Yes. 00:47:07.415 --> 00:47:12.125 The choices that I would make obviously don't apply in these situations. 00:47:12.125 --> 00:47:13.115 And they don't apply to... 00:47:13.435 --> 00:47:16.645 I mean, okay, so let's look at... Clearly, there's things they've refined, 00:47:16.645 --> 00:47:20.235 because you've had Sunshine, Galaxy, Odyssey, etc. 00:47:20.757 --> 00:47:25.465 But let's look at some of the stuff that has evolved from there. 00:47:25.465 --> 00:47:27.758 There's been a countless number of things that... 00:47:27.975 --> 00:47:32.945 The third-person camera control stuff is a staple. It is the formula that exists 00:47:32.945 --> 00:47:34.753 in games today in some form. 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.580 You know, even like the perspective of the character... 00:47:37.986 --> 00:47:40.734 You know, and the way that they move.

The only thing that I did find interesting, 00:47:40.734 --> 00:47:44.474 though, with the Mario movement is he's got this kind of, like he almost has 00:47:44.474 --> 00:47:48.004 to get running, you know, like he has to build up speed. He's got like acceleration. 00:47:49.504 --> 00:47:52.834 And I actually quite like that, to be honest. Like I feel in a lot of games 00:47:52.834 --> 00:47:54.902 now, like it feels a bit floaty. 00:47:55.024 --> 00:47:59.927 Yeah, and I know platformers aren't, 3D platformers aren't as, 00:48:00.259 --> 00:48:04.564 I don't want to say common, but they aren't as prominent on game consoles as they used to be. 00:48:04.564 --> 00:48:07.854 I know Astro Bot one game of the year recently and stuff, and that's highly 00:48:07.854 --> 00:48:12.729 praised but they're not at the they're not at the height of the powers that they were in the kind of 00:48:12.961 --> 00:48:16.924 80s 90s and early 2000s yeah they've kind of gone out of fashion a little bit 00:48:16.924 --> 00:48:20.347 so i understand that like i am referencing games that feel, 00:48:20.924 --> 00:48:24.254 the control differently that aren't of the same genre but i do feel that like 00:48:24.254 --> 00:48:27.824 i kind of like the weight behind mario here i mean i know it makes it creates 00:48:27.824 --> 00:48:30.554 challenges because he runs and he doesn't just stop you know there's a little 00:48:30.554 --> 00:48:34.804 bit of a stutter you know there's a little bit and maybe that's a bit of usability design and refinement, 00:48:35.328 --> 00:48:39.536 that's gained there, but I do kind of like that, and I think it's an important element of... 00:48:39.699 --> 00:48:43.104 Well, you see a lot, like even like the level where you slide, 00:48:43.604 --> 00:48:46.394 well, there's several levels in there where you slide on your belly down ramps 00:48:46.394 --> 00:48:52.598 and stuff, that's just snowboarding games. That's like modern snowboarding games put in... 00:48:52.725 --> 00:48:55.784 Like I was looking up for another N64 game that I used to really enjoy, 00:48:55.784 --> 00:48:57.199 which is Snowboard Kids. 00:48:57.403 --> 00:49:02.344 That came out in 97 in Japan, end of December 97, so 98 for us. 00:49:02.344 --> 00:49:06.424 And that's like, that game is just those levels, but you can jump. 00:49:07.284 --> 00:49:10.294 Like, it's those levels, but a full game. 00:49:10.294 --> 00:49:13.184 And the amount of stuff that is in this game that you could. 00:49:14.144 --> 00:49:17.404 There are almost certainly games out there that you can just point to and go, 00:49:17.404 --> 00:49:21.494 that's just this Mario level, but they've made a whole game about it because 00:49:21.494 --> 00:49:24.391 it was so fun. Yeah, and there is something too going down... 00:49:24.715 --> 00:49:28.306 There is that momentum that you get in 3D, especially. Because there's that 00:49:28.306 --> 00:49:32.721 game I showed you ages ago now. It must have been like 10, 15 years ago on the Super Nintendo. 00:49:32.982 --> 00:49:37.176 That kid's clown crazy chase. That 2D one, you're racing and I think there's 00:49:37.176 --> 00:49:40.766 a bomb that's set on and you've got to get to the, defuse the bomb at the end 00:49:40.766 --> 00:49:43.264 of the racetrack before or whatever. 00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:47.216 But that's 2D and you don't have that momentum. 00:49:47.216 --> 00:49:50.656 I mean, it's like beautifully animated and there's so much charm and character 00:49:50.656 --> 00:49:54.036 and personality and all that stuff. But you don't have that momentum until, 00:49:54.036 --> 00:49:56.886 for me, these kind of 3D games started to bring it to the table. 00:49:56.886 --> 00:50:01.226 Sonic the Hedgehog did well. That's true, yeah. Sonic. 00:50:02.246 --> 00:50:05.746 That was their whole thing, wasn't it? It was the momentum aspect to it is that 00:50:06.186 --> 00:50:08.846 they could do it. And there was a lot of Sonic where you would go up ramps and 00:50:08.846 --> 00:50:13.385 then you would have the gravity hit you and fall back down and you'd have hang time and stuff. 00:50:13.600 --> 00:50:17.626 They put a lot of effort into making that work. But what Mario has done is bring 00:50:17.626 --> 00:50:23.296 it into a 3D space but on a smaller scale, isn't it? Yeah. Because you're not 00:50:23.296 --> 00:50:26.238 having to go up Mach 3 or whatever Sonic does to do that. 00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:30.866 And then when you get the Sonic 3D games, I do think the momentum in those games is great. 00:50:31.626 --> 00:50:34.946 I know me and you spoke a lot about Sonic Adventure 2 because we both played 00:50:34.946 --> 00:50:39.506 that growing up. And that game, the first level where you're running towards 00:50:39.506 --> 00:50:45.039 the camera away from the big truck, the momentum in that is very good. But this game does it. 00:50:45.230 --> 00:50:49.296 Every action you're taking, you feel the weight of Mario. You feel his fat belly 00:50:49.296 --> 00:50:50.586 flopping around as you're jumping there. 00:50:51.446 --> 00:50:54.626 Yeah, no, you feel all the different types of jumps and they feel very distinct 00:50:54.626 --> 00:50:58.459 and different. Also, you have to learn how to execute them and refine them. 00:50:58.674 --> 00:51:02.045 I also think we speak about it at work a lot. 00:51:02.546 --> 00:51:07.242 This and i mentioned miyamoto's philosophy about every part of the game has 00:51:07.242 --> 00:51:10.832 to be fun and delightful you know kind of and that includes movement like movement 00:51:10.832 --> 00:51:14.934 is such an important part of a game even if you're just walking or running or 00:51:15.212 --> 00:51:18.652 whatever and it's got to and if you're playing a game where you do that, 00:51:19.252 --> 00:51:23.182 the the majority of the time or a player is going to spend most of their time 00:51:23.182 --> 00:51:28.302 moving then that that should be something that

is delightful is enjoyable doesn't 00:51:28.302 --> 00:51:33.368 feel like a chore and this is a game i know it's a platformer and obviously it's, 00:51:33.872 --> 00:51:37.002 the movement and the jumping is an important part of the gameplay mechanics 00:51:37.002 --> 00:51:41.432 themselves but it's it's such an important element in regardless of the game 00:51:41.432 --> 00:51:45.352 that you're making and there's games like a you know want like we quite like 00:51:45.352 --> 00:51:47.552 that xenoblade chronicles x moving in that, 00:51:48.327 --> 00:51:51.462 like that jump when you're sprinting where you know you're outstretching the 00:51:51.462 --> 00:51:54.532 arms and there's real momentum behind that you know and and then you do the 00:51:54.532 --> 00:51:58.042 superhero landing if you're really high stuff like that's a lot of fun And I 00:51:58.042 --> 00:52:01.832 think those parts of things that you want to, when you're making a game, 00:52:02.632 --> 00:52:06.442 I think even like when we made like UFO, like that game on Steam, 00:52:06.442 --> 00:52:08.552 UFO, Unfortunately, Fortunate Organisms, when. 00:52:09.451 --> 00:52:13.592 We were designing like the movement of the UFO itself, we wanted it to have, 00:52:13.592 --> 00:52:16.882 we didn't want it to be like the player was perfectly in control, 00:52:16.882 --> 00:52:18.742 could stop exactly when they wanted. 00:52:18.742 --> 00:52:22.412 You know, we wanted some tug, we wanted some acceleration, we wanted some deceleration. 00:52:22.412 --> 00:52:24.702 We wanted those moments because that was part of the challenge. 00:52:24.859 --> 00:52:26.530 You know, you were trying to balance that, 00:52:26.937 --> 00:52:30.808 controlling it and picking up people and and you know destroying objects and 00:52:30.808 --> 00:52:35.308 everything else well there's another game that we worked on which i won't say yet. 00:52:36.168 --> 00:52:40.897 But that has great sort of movement in that very physics space sort of like 00:52:41.047 --> 00:52:45.068 that that flow and shift like if you try and turn around it's not a 10 on a 00:52:45.068 --> 00:52:48.338 dime there's a there's a curve to it and stuff every part of the game should 00:52:48.338 --> 00:52:49.865 be enjoyable that's just 00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:53.188 you're playing a game to have fun so why not make every aspect of it fun and 00:52:53.188 --> 00:52:55.641 I do feel like sometimes games forget that. 00:52:55.774 --> 00:53:01.448 I think it's an important lesson from playing Super Mario 64 or I think that's 00:53:01.448 --> 00:53:04.628 probably one of the aspects of Miyamoto's games that I quite enjoy. 00:53:04.628 --> 00:53:07.808 I remember he did an interview in his show. It's quite the test of time though, 00:53:07.808 --> 00:53:10.989 isn't it? They're just fun. Yeah, I like where they come up. 00:53:11.768 --> 00:53:13.048 Where he draws the fun from. 00:53:13.388 --> 00:53:16.978 I think he spoke about Star Fox and

you're going through the gates or whatever 00:53:16.978 --> 00:53:19.668 and he just got that from when he was a child. 00:53:19.668 --> 00:53:23.818 There's something he just enjoys about the Torrey gates, just going under them, 00:53:23.818 --> 00:53:27.958 like through them under them. Like there's just a, like just doing it and making, 00:53:27.958 --> 00:53:30.558 you know, even if there's one like in the path, he's not going to go around 00:53:30.558 --> 00:53:31.307 it, he's going to go through it. 00:53:31.429 --> 00:53:35.018 There's a desire in his inner being to just do that. Yeah. And it's like, 00:53:35.018 --> 00:53:36.967 well, if you can gamify that, you know. 00:53:37.187 --> 00:53:41.598 Moving to like other Nintendo movies like Pokemon is based around bug catching 00:53:41.598 --> 00:53:48.068 and that's just a child's pastime in Japan. And Zelda exploring caves and things like that, right? 00:53:48.568 --> 00:53:53.338 Yeah. Yeah, it's childhood whimsy and childhood games that are then taken and 00:53:53.338 --> 00:53:56.618 given magic and given a world and given a place and purpose. 00:53:56.618 --> 00:54:01.421 And that's where the sandbox genre element comes from, a sandbox in a kid's 00:54:01.566 --> 00:54:06.728 playground, right? And I feel like we've, not we, but developers are forgetting 00:54:06.728 --> 00:54:08.148 that. The games are supposed to be fun. Yeah. 00:54:10.453 --> 00:54:14.395 There's this spectrum when you when you're putting together a game particularly 00:54:14.395 --> 00:54:17.595 you know you do need to make money from games and everything and there's this 00:54:17.595 --> 00:54:22.644 spectrum isn't there between art and play on one side and then business on the other, 00:54:23.137 --> 00:54:26.875 and i think it was edmund is it mcmillan or something that the chap who did 00:54:26.875 --> 00:54:29.842 supermate boy and barnum isaac he spoke about it, 00:54:30.312 --> 00:54:34.375 and it's definitely finding where you are on that spectrum and the type of game 00:54:34.375 --> 00:54:38.125 and typically with indie because you want to develop a game that's perhaps a 00:54:38.125 --> 00:54:43.185 bit more niche you try to lean more into the art side because a triple a game that needs to catch, 00:54:44.145 --> 00:54:47.655 large amounts of people in a broad net will try and be more more to the other 00:54:47.655 --> 00:54:50.965 way you know more often than not because they they need one sad they need. 00:54:52.445 --> 00:54:55.025 They need it to be a commercial success obviously so they need to reach as many 00:54:55.025 --> 00:54:58.415 people so they need to accommodate as many different things so they need to 00:54:58.415 --> 00:55:02.815 put glowing lines tell you where to go otherwise you won't buy the game there's 00:55:02.815 --> 00:55:05.575 a there's a deeper challenge to that isn't there like with I know, 00:55:05.575 --> 00:55:07.305 I'm being very surface level, 00:55:08.188 --> 00:55:10.731 but it is a hot topic. A yellow paint surface level. 00:55:11.705 --> 00:55:17.255 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just a TLDR is there's certain gameplay aspects in certain 00:55:17.255 --> 00:55:22.096 games that are being sort of like simplified and washed over because... 00:55:23.240 --> 00:55:27.154 They would only be there for fun, perhaps, and not there for purpose, 00:55:27.154 --> 00:55:30.604 or maybe not even experienced by all players. And that's something I think a 00:55:30.604 --> 00:55:34.183 AAA game struggle with, is putting content in that isn't for everybody. 00:55:34.333 --> 00:55:38.895 They want everyone to play 100% of their game. I think what I appreciate about 00:55:39.023 --> 00:55:42.604 a lot of Nintendo games, obviously they have different studios internally. 00:55:42.604 --> 00:55:46.604 I don't want to say Miyamoto Studios, but the ones that are coming from that philosophy. 00:55:47.264 --> 00:55:50.474 I think the thing I appreciate about them is they have a clear intent behind 00:55:50.474 --> 00:55:51.734 what they're trying to achieve. 00:55:51.734 --> 00:55:56.534 It's trying to capture the essence of play and they trust in what they're doing, 00:55:56.534 --> 00:56:00.565 trust that if people, if a person picks up the game and plays it, 00:56:00.832 --> 00:56:04.211 then there's something for them because they've designed it in a specific way 00:56:04.490 --> 00:56:08.194 that will capture people's imagination that we all had as children. 00:56:08.194 --> 00:56:11.724 And I think there's something there to be said for that rather than being overly 00:56:11.724 --> 00:56:14.654 concerned with accommodating every different 00:56:14.828 --> 00:56:18.634 type of person that might not want to play a game or might not want friction 00:56:18.634 --> 00:56:22.164 or a challenge or this or that you know i think sometimes you've got to have 00:56:22.164 --> 00:56:26.067 some belief in what you're making and trust that the game can be 00:56:26.276 --> 00:56:29.614 can appeal to people if it's really good at what it does you know there's stuff 00:56:29.614 --> 00:56:32.984 like boulder's gate recently that i say recently but that's 00:56:33.344 --> 00:56:37.444 that's a that's a i think that's a hardcore game and that's sold over 20 million 00:56:37.444 --> 00:56:39.364 copies that's not a game that's like. 00:56:40.004 --> 00:56:43.994 Super simple but it's a game that's a lot of people if you've never played a 00:56:43.994 --> 00:56:47.114 game before and you drop into a game like boulder's gate, there's going to be 00:56:47.114 --> 00:56:48.925 a disconnect. There's going to be a lot to learn. 00:56:49.047 --> 00:56:53.784 Yeah, and I think what they did is they trusted the systems that they have in place. They trusted in 00:56:54.172 --> 00:56:57.979 their learned experience over many years of developing games of the same genre 00:56:57.979 --> 00:57:02.019 and same kind of formula and they didn't overly concern

themselves with trying 00:57:02.019 --> 00:57:05.202 to be something it's not you know or appeal to the type of 00:57:05.544 --> 00:57:08.889 people who might not like this game regardless of what they do you know you've 00:57:08.889 --> 00:57:12.459 got to understand you can't capture literally everyone but there's a pool of 00:57:12.459 --> 00:57:16.809 people that there's millions of people definitely that can enjoy a certain 00:57:17.129 --> 00:57:22.158 genre and style of game if it's done exceptionally well you know there's talks for years about 00:57:22.419 --> 00:57:25.759 turn-based rpgs being terrible people don't care about and this and the other 00:57:25.759 --> 00:57:30.689 but then you see pokemon sell like hotcakes now if turn-based rpgs truly people 00:57:30.689 --> 00:57:32.333 couldn't stomach them at all 00:57:32.548 --> 00:57:35.379 they would not be touching pokemon because those are the mechanics you know 00:57:35.379 --> 00:57:39.845 so there's clearly a way you can wrap it up that people love it and enjoy it so it's it's 00:57:40.094 --> 00:57:43.329 it's about trusting in what you're putting together and wrapping it up in a 00:57:43.329 --> 00:57:46.249 way that you know with intent that people can 00:57:46.689 --> 00:57:49.749 enjoy and embrace it and And I think that's something that I wish. 00:57:50.189 --> 00:57:54.019 Obviously, I think I have to feel for some, like I know quite a few people who 00:57:54.019 --> 00:57:55.390 are working in the AAA space. 00:57:55.686 --> 00:57:59.129 And a lot of, there's a couple of things, you've obviously got time constraints, 00:57:59.129 --> 00:58:04.339 you've got resource, limited resources, pressure from up above to design and 00:58:04.339 --> 00:58:09.158 implement things in games that they might not necessarily agree with or whatever. 00:58:09.583 --> 00:58:12.553 You know, and need to facilitate things. And then you have to put resources 00:58:12.553 --> 00:58:15.503 into doing that rather than focusing on the core experience, 00:58:15.503 --> 00:58:17.733 you know. There's all these different variables up in play. 00:58:18.193 --> 00:58:21.833 But so that is, like, it's never just as simple as, like, oh, 00:58:21.833 --> 00:58:24.043 a designer there doesn't understand this or doesn't understand that. 00:58:24.287 --> 00:58:28.643 They understand that the yellow page is there. I don't like this lazy design 00:58:28.643 --> 00:58:33.073 word a lot of people who don't really understand what it's like to make a game, 00:58:33.073 --> 00:58:37.045 throw around. It's like, this is lazy. Oh, the Pokemon, there's a laser. It's like, they're not. 00:58:37.295 --> 00:58:41.403 They get they get they get a piece of bread and a bit of butter and they go 00:58:41.403 --> 00:58:46.583 and make a game off that that's their budget and then also make it in 12 months 00:58:46.583 --> 00:58:47.793 so we can have a yearly you know. 00:58:49.493 --> 00:58:54.253 There's a there's a tremendous turn like you know they have a limited pool of resources and then it's 00:58:54.633 --> 00:58:57.533 and by resources i mean development budget that they've got to do it in a certain 00:58:57.533 --> 00:59:01.663 time and that also means the limited resources means that they can't hire more 00:59:01.663 --> 00:59:05.713 people or extend the development time these these things affect that i would 00:59:05.713 --> 00:59:08.053 love to get into because we've 00:59:08.433 --> 00:59:10.873 obviously not this episode I think we're going to wrap up in a minute but, 00:59:11.777 --> 00:59:13.763 I think I would love to get into talking 00:59:13.763 --> 00:59:17.259 about because we've talked about transition from 2D to 3D there are 00:59:17.683 --> 00:59:21.313 several games that we've played that have made that transition that have not 00:59:21.313 --> 00:59:25.053 done it in such a graceful way as Barry O clearly did back in the day because 00:59:25.413 --> 00:59:28.573 this is like a masterclass in how to do it really considering. 00:59:29.533 --> 00:59:31.253 Some of the problems that even 00:59:31.633 --> 00:59:37.070 modern day companies bump up against when trying to move from 2D to 3D. 00:59:37.198 --> 00:59:40.722 Just look at Pokemon Scarlet and Violet, for example, compared to, 00:59:41.168 --> 00:59:46.641 sword and shield the the the graphical fidelity's night and day on those two 00:59:46.641 --> 00:59:51.121 games but but why is always the question i'd love to get into that in a in another well it's, 00:59:51.641 --> 00:59:56.121 like tim schaefer spoke about super mario 64 and you know like obviously it's 00:59:56.121 --> 01:00:00.431 the jump from 2d to 3d but it's also the innovations of the 3d the camera work 01:00:00.431 --> 01:00:04.541 and everything and he said super mario 64 was like an epiphany it was 01:00:04.921 --> 01:00:09.158 something that just it became a thing and you saw it and you were like 01:00:09.551 --> 01:00:13.381 oh my god this is it this is how 3d games are made this is how, 01:00:13.841 --> 01:00:16.721 cameras are going to function this is it these are the control schemes this 01:00:16.721 --> 01:00:20.221 is that they just needed someone to break the mold yeah, 01:00:20.912 --> 01:00:26.581 gabe newell said this was to cvg in 2011 he said mario 64 is still my favorite 01:00:26.581 --> 01:00:31.231 game of all time the controls are still pretty much unrivaled and they convinced 01:00:31.231 --> 01:00:35.541 him it convinced him when he played that game that video games were art you know yeah and 01:00:35.961 --> 01:00:42.660 i got another quote actually from dan hauser who was the co-founder of rockstar you know did gta and 01:00:43.043 --> 01:00:48.081 things he said any developer who's made who makes 3d games who says that they've 01:00:48.081 --> 01:00:52.241 not borrowed something from super mario 64 or ocarina of time is lying. 01:00:53.801 --> 01:00:57.921 At least in some form you know yeah

yeah i think that's a nice way to end and 01:00:57.921 --> 01:01:03.351 we'll um yes we'll talk about so our next game on the on the podcast is going 01:01:03.351 --> 01:01:08.452 to be Streets of Rage 2, which is a side-scrolling beat-em-up by Sega. And we're going to... 01:01:08.725 --> 01:01:11.001 I think we're playing the classics version, but it's the classics version from 01:01:11.001 --> 01:01:14.651 the Sega Mega Drive slash Genesis era, which was also... 01:01:14.721 --> 01:01:16.910 I think it was a popular arcade game at the time as well. 01:01:17.335 --> 01:01:20.213 But yeah streets of rage 2 now you haven't played this one have you, 01:01:20.693 --> 01:01:25.476 no i've never touched um i have played some games like it on like arcades and stuff 01:01:25.703 --> 01:01:28.463 don't know what the titles of those games were i'm sure there was a teenage 01:01:28.463 --> 01:01:32.183 mutant ninja tower one at one point but yes i've not played that one so we'll 01:01:32.183 --> 01:01:35.423 spin that up we'll play that together i believe yeah we can play it co-op which 01:01:35.423 --> 01:01:39.762 is going to be exciting and it's all on the same screen so we want to split screen silliness 01:01:39.971 --> 01:01:45.353 revisit watching john play a video game oh gosh what are you doing i'm just looking in the bin why, 01:01:46.313 --> 01:01:47.995 because i want chicken. 01:01:49.573 --> 01:01:55.353 Is that a reference to the game i think it is uh i remember playing um no no okay well, 01:01:56.650 --> 01:02:01.093 there was tech tech and three had a mini a mini game on it that was doing 01:02:01.413 --> 01:02:05.153 kind of streets of rage double dragon inspired side-scrolling beat them up and 01:02:05.153 --> 01:02:08.934 one of the pickups on it was you know like a big an actual full roast chicken 01:02:09.178 --> 01:02:12.363 and when you would pick up to recover your health chicken there was just it 01:02:12.363 --> 01:02:15.013 was almost like mortal kombat you know where they just throw in that kind of 01:02:15.013 --> 01:02:18.213 audio line and it was just like chicken yeah it was just uh, 01:02:18.773 --> 01:02:22.503 it's quite amusing but anyway yeah streets of rage 2 is the next episode and 01:02:22.503 --> 01:02:25.543 then we go into spooky season and why not just say it now we're going to also 01:02:25.543 --> 01:02:29.813 yeah we're going to be playing amnesia the dark descent after streets of rage 2 which we're both, 01:02:30.573 --> 01:02:33.573 very excited for i'm excited for that i only played half an hour of it when 01:02:33.573 --> 01:02:38.993 it came out because i was a sniveling coward but no longer now i shall now i'm 01:02:38.993 --> 01:02:42.763 older wiser and bolder and i shall venture forth into the descent with my head 01:02:42.763 --> 01:02:45.113 held high and my sphincter clenched. Famous last words. 01:02:46.733 --> 01:02:51.823 That has been the latest episode of Indie Devs Play and we will catch you guys on the next one. Ciao.

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