With special guest Brooke, host of Actual Innocence podcast.

In Sight explores mysteries, true crime, and forgotten history. In this episode, Ali and Charlie are joined by special guest Brooke Gittings from the Actual Innocence podcast. We explore one of the biggest cases in Australia--the conviction and eventual exoneration of Lindy Chamberlain. What happened on that campout? What evidence is there that a dingo took baby Azaria? Or does the evidence point toward foul play? How did the media influence the public’s view of Michael and Lindy Chamberlain?


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Cover art by Ali

Music by Scott Buckley

United States


00:00:09hello everyone and welcome to another episode of insight alley here and joining may ease Charlie how you Charlie I'm good how are you I'm doing pretty good and I am so excited to introduce some additional help tonight joining us Eastbrook from actual innocence podcast will compel hello thanks
00:00:31for calling me the hope I feel like I could I appreciate it side before we begin on this week's case there has been a major announcement on a case that we covered in our first episode Lori Erica rough and it turns out ten nine isn't really Laurie Erica
00:00:49rough after all she's really a Pennsylvanian woman named Kimberly McLean so long story short late last year a full not nuclear physicist and a forensic genealogist by the name of Colleen Fitzpatrick who like a lot of us was obsessed with the case she had been testing a day
00:01:09nice sample that the rough family had previously submitted and she discovered that Laurie had a first cousin nines Michael Cassidy Colin gets in touch with the four miles total security administration investigate out nine to Joe valine Angela grace to talk to the Cassidy family and as soon as
00:01:31they say lorries driver's license photo taken phone that Laurie is in fact Kimberly McLean it turns out the Kimberly was not happy when her mother and father separated when she was eighteen years old because that would involved heard meeting and starting a new school Kimberly tells him about
00:01:50that she's leaving for good and she does but how on earth that you get from can relate to Becky sue turn off that's anyone's guess at how she goes from running away from home because her parents split up to the bizarre behavior out of Laurie carafe well I
00:02:06guess there are parts to this story that will remain a mystery so what do you guys think of all these I think one of the key points in her disappearance was that there was a step father who came onto the scene and in the eighties you could believe
00:02:23and cut off contact with your family without much difficulty yet she went through two layers of identity change she really didn't want to be found so I'm not willing to let go of the theory that there was something darker yes going on that would make her want that
00:02:41but it would just be speculation at this point the only family member who spoke in an interview with The Seattle Times was her uncle yes and it's hard to know how much he would know anyway and I mean even parents and siblings don't always know what's happening in
00:02:59someone's life even when they live in the home so you think she was running from something I don't know that we'll ever know what it is and I don't know that it's necessarily our business to know what it is but I'm glad her mom has an answer yes
00:03:14and her daughter as well and then there was a gap between her leaving home and becoming Becky say ten Oct we don't know what's happened in the eighties in between that time so one of the my other thoughts with this story is a lot of people are a
00:03:32little disappointed that it was kind of an anti climactic she didn't run away from a cold she and my personal favorite theory was you know favor as in favor ward like the one I thought it was was that she was a foster child and they haven't been yeah
00:03:48she had to be imported missing in this case she was reported missing because she told our family I'm leaving and I don't want contact sushi really actually wasn't missing she knew where she was and she was where she wanted to be but it is not that this has
00:04:04any like this is not at all about me however I'm still it's hard when your favorite mystery is solved and now I feel like I have a void in this my mystery side and I'm currently looking for a new I knew when that I read it because this
00:04:22was the one I would read about one lack can't sleep let me go see if there's a new theory out there so I need a new one if anyone has any interesting one son of my wife go for tennis no tennis oh Jeez once I heard that they
00:04:35were looking for runners I was like not me I'm not running a famous philosopher whose name I can't think of said that you're only happy when you're anticipating future happiness so anticipating our mystery will be solved is fun but once the mystery is solved it's not fun anymore
00:04:50because you've lost the anticipation that it's gonna happen that's probably true which is really it's not about me I'm glad her family has answers but again send me your favorite mysteries because I'm looking for a new one I que se tonight we are talking about somewhat of a
00:05:09big story I have here in Australia one that everyone has an opinion on and it's also a listener suggestion from Brady tonight we are going to be discussing the death of his aria chamberlain and a subsequent conviction and acquittal of her mother Lindy Chamberlin so I'm not sure
00:05:28for what nineteen forty eight Alice lean Mitchinson all the indie is born in New Zealand her father was a pastor for the seventh day Adventist church and one CD the family would move for Lindy's father to work with a new church we need the was almost too head
00:05:47family relocates to Victoria Australia where he would grow up on November eighteenth nineteen sixty nine twenty one year old Lindy marries Michael lady chamberlain who was an Adventist Pastaza locker fado now the seventh day Adventist church it wasn't a widely understood religion during this time in Australia and
00:06:09people's prejudices against the Adventist religion that comes into play in my to media stories about the family but we'll get to that a bit later so shortly after they were married Mindy and Michael needs to Tasmania while Michael continues he's passed away well they are leaving their they
00:06:28have their first child I didn't lady who was born on October second nineteen seventy three they stay in Tasmania for five years and then I moved to north Queensland and have a second child another boy Reagan Michael on April sixteenth nineteen seventy six as much as Linda marcole
00:06:49both left the boys they really wanted to go obviously they were static when on June eleventh nineteen eighty Atari action tell Lauren chamberlain was born by all accounts Lindy took to motherhood easily and there was no evidence that she suffered from post partum depression or any other mental
00:07:09illness there was not reported accounts of any type of violence within the household and Lindy was again reportedly calm and loving towards this area so in August thirteenth nineteen ninety Lindy Michael the two boys and nine we called as aria they get into the family's yellow hatchback and
00:07:29leave their home in the morning ten of man eyes out for their holiday in the Northern Territory I arrived at the campsite is rock or Uluru as it's now nine three guys like hell on Saturday August sixteen they pitched their tents next to the car which was normal
00:07:47practice at the time as I said back then larue was nine is is rock and at that time tourists were able to keep right around the base of the rock and climb on top of it that's not allowed anymore but it's what happened at the time the next
00:08:03morning Michael takes the two boys to climb larue and Lindy goes off with this area to explore some caves the report slide up that she says a dingo watching his area during this time wait can I interested as good a dingo is I didn't I think that is
00:08:20a wild dog probably similar to a coyote would that be a fair assumption tally yeah I actually there they look quite a bit lovelier than a coyote they're not quite so mangy looking but yeah they're wild dog I would say from what I've read about them and their
00:08:41personality and stuff they are very similar to coyotes do they how like coyotes yet sleek that they do you hear them in the distance and yes up in the top end of Australia people can't do you keep them as pets however up it's not recommended because they are
00:08:58quite unpredictable after sunset stood chamberlain family mate with another couple Greg and Sally Lyle who also a camping with their right baby I have a barbecue and I talking about the day's activities around eight o'clock Sally report saying it didn't go following her to the capes garbage disposal
00:09:20Michael and I didn't also faded dean guys some crusty bread and they say the dingo ate a mouse Lindy scolds them for feeding the dingo and encouraging it to stay around the campsite she's feeling on a Z. after saying the dingoes earlier that day and not long after
00:09:38this Lindy puts his aria down to sleep in the same tent as her four year old brother Reagan who was already asleep ten minutes later Lindy and some other of the campus here is our is cry he heads over to the tent and she later reports to police
00:09:57that she sees a dingo backing it's why out of the tent but she cannot say it's face many checks the tent as aria is going so here's something that occurred to me when I was reading about this and I don't know maybe I should save it to the
00:10:10end but I'll just go ahead with it a lot of what I've read online that makes people doubt some of the stories that dingoes are fairly timid with humans they would have gone into a tent on the off chance just that they might be able to find a
00:10:25small person in there because they would be afraid there was a big person in there and how would a dingo even know a baby was there so first you've already said the dingoes were eating out of people's hands you know any wild animal that's in close proximity to
00:10:40humans that are feeding them I don't know if you've ever been camping and raccoons will come like right up your tent to try to grab your food they just get used to humans and they're not as timid but I also wondered if there were reports of hearing as
00:10:55are you cry but what if she started crying a little bit earlier and that alerted the dingo that there was a baby in there so being me I actually did some research on this there are actually researchers in Canada who did a study and found that mammals can
00:11:12actually recognize the cries of other species and recognize the cries of infants from other species and I suspect predators would be able to do this especially since recognizing the distress of like a smaller more vulnerable pray would be pretty important now I have a weird search on my
00:11:33computer to go along my searches on meth psychosis and Ford trucks and all of that but I was wondering if maybe as aria started stirring and she made noise and that attracted the didn't go to the tent I think the problem he is leading up to a sorry
00:11:50oz disappearance the terrace was fading the dingoes a lot more often than I had previously it was pot of gold sort of the touristy thing to do and we don't know about the dean goes what food was available for the dean guys out more away from civilization that
00:12:13might might have not been so readily available which would mean they would be coming closer to people I went camping a lot when I was a child and I remember one time we had like a screen tent where we kept all of our food and a raccoon got
00:12:27into the screen test you know it was close but it ripped a hole in the screen ten opened a Tupperware full of cookies and ate like three dozen cookies I don't know how the raccoon knew the cookies were in there but it did and it got to them
00:12:40Lindy guys back and raises the alarm and straight away or the other campaigns get together ought to look for tracks all pieces of clothing three hundred people join the search except for Michael Michael tells a filet Kampala that he wasn't searching because she's probably dead by now all
00:12:59whatever happens it is god's will so after the baby goes missing the Northern Territory police are called and they get there in about fifteen minutes and also some local aboriginal trackers are called and they arrive within like an hour and so the police fi indigo tracks around and
00:13:18inside the tent they find blood that was later matches area on the mattress on the tent itself and near the bassinet that she was sleeping in and next to the bingo tracks an officer examines the chamberlains car with a strong flashlight air quotes because remember it's night time
00:13:36and it's really dark and he finds no sign of blood in the car the aboriginal trackers follow the dingo tracks for as far as they could and at one point they find drag marks in the sand and they come across to places of shallow depressions in the sea
00:13:51and so it's kind of what you would expect if the dingo put down a bundle well he needed to rest or readjust his grip I'm in in one of the depressions there was an imprint of a knitted garment and next to the other depression there was a small
00:14:08dark patch in the sand and they assumed it was blood but it was never tested so after an extensive search as Daria was never found it would have been difficult search anyway because I don't remember it's the middle of the desert here it would have been pitch black
00:14:25doc and it would have been so cold I think that was one of the things that the track is were worried about was could see it as our yes survive anyway because of the cold conditions can I ask why it why they would make an aboriginal tracker be
00:14:45called on top of the police does that make sense the aboriginal track is now the area they know how do you guys hunt so in missing persons cases in the desert or in the forest walk with the Williams hero case they the police to work with aboriginal trackers
00:15:04that night everyone believed to Lindy this yes suspicion didn't come until later none of the campers that were there were suspicious of them at all three hundred people were searching and everyone was looking for signs of wear the dingoes brought a baby everybody believed her that night yet
00:15:23the police state the track is never doubted her and so on August twenty fourth of nineteen eighty which was one week after a sorry witnessing a local photographer without taking photos of wild flowers and he found some of us are his blood stained clothes near the base of
00:15:41Ayers rock which I have been saying right which is about five kilometers or about three miles away from where the chamberlains campsite what they found a torn one Z. booties a tank top and a diaper but the little white manatee jacket that Lindy and says that as ari
00:16:00was wearing was the only item of clothing that was never found the trackers believe that the clothes were found next to what was once a dingo den the head investigator makes note that as are his clothes were found where the family had hiked earlier on the day she
00:16:16disappeared I wanted to just I had a thought about Michael not searching and people thinking this is kinda suspicious because he's just like us you must be dead and that was my first reaction so I'm right there with everybody but I tried to think about other reasons why
00:16:32he wouldn't search for his baby other than that he's you know knew that they had already killed her Lindy had and the only thing I can really come up with is that if you truly believe the dingo had taken his baby possible that the thought of finding his
00:16:48infant daughter in whatever condition right she would have been in was just paralyzing and it was too much for him to handle enemy would like to all things that would put aside all our own fears for children but I mean the thought of finding my child in that
00:17:06condition maybe that was just too far for him this wasn't like a normal abduction this is and wild animals hiking a child weeds in a shop tastes in your mind plays tricks he knows what he was thinking he definitely would have been going through some sort of shock
00:17:26and also honestly if he knew she was dead and wouldn't be found any was trying to cover it up he would have actually gone searching exactly what is searched harder because and put on like a really good show about it because guilty people trying to look innocent don't
00:17:42go out of their way to try to look guilty I beat me would have gone he would've made a big production about looking for her working with people who have a lot of trauma it bothers me a lot of people like %HESITATION he was at he wasn't acting
00:17:53like you're supposed to act when you lose a child but everybody reacts to trauma different it's not there's not like a set way that you have to react to trauma it's not like in the rule book if your child dies and you have to act like this it's
00:18:05everybody handles that the way that they can I think if we look at the Susan Smith case I mean she did drown her boys and she put on quite the production for the cameras to wear a lot I mean a yeah some people are suspicious of her because
00:18:21we're just always suspicious of the parents but for the most part she did everything text book the way you should look when you're grieving yet she is the one who killed their sons to you you really can't judge absolutely and I don't know if you guys saw the
00:18:35%HESITATION the job today documentary but even then you know a lot of the evidence we are a lot of their conclusions were that this family didn't act like you should when there is a tragedy like that you know the sun didn't act the way you should and and
00:18:51there's no way that a kid should act I mean kids all handle trauma differently I work with kids who had a parent die and they were fine or I work with kids whose dog died and you know they were beside themselves so it's not there's not a set
00:19:05way that someone acts when they're traumatized sue immediately and in the days after the police didn't doubt that this was a case of a dingo taking as aria and it was widely reported as a dingo attack but then confusion started rumors found their way into the narrative in
00:19:23early and baffling question ones were Lindy and Michael even as are his parents I mean and that's only the beginning of the rumors and questions that followed that had very little basis so some other the mass of rumors that not only made it into the papers but I
00:19:41see them repeated on online just forms discussing this case even today one is not as Daria was murdered by a relative either her mom deter her dad did or both did it maybe one of her brothers did it they did it for notoriety or for money or because
00:19:58Lindy was jealous of a daughter or should post partum depression and yet I think you get the idea any reason at all so later a story came out that is are you wasn't a healthy child Lindy had taken her to the doctor concerned that she had a condition
00:20:16that was causing her to spit up more than normal and that because she was this ill either she wanted to save his aria from a life of misery or she wanted to save herself from the burden of having an ill child take your pick I do want to
00:20:33note that this condition apparently her other children had it as well when they were infants and I've had two kids with severe %HESITATION spitting up problems so it's not exactly a life of burden but anyway these are how the rumors go then there's a question that maybe Michael
00:20:50wasn't the father and Lindy or Michael killed as are you because of that so let's see how we mention the religious angle that they were very religious people and they were in a face that was not really understood it was seen as a fringe faith and maybe they
00:21:09thought as ari was possessed by Satan because why not and the police started looking harder at the possibility that this was murdered they kinda started leaning towards just a plain flat Lindy's kind of crazy so the evidence to back up as are you being sick possessed not Michael's
00:21:30child Lindsey's post partum depression or her mental illness none of that exists well you can look at this case and maybe start thinking some of the physical evidence points towards foul play no one can give our motive without anything to back it up and trust me I looked
00:21:51now a lot of this was due to the story being one of the most publicized in Australian history even to this day and in Australia dingoes are not always seen as ferocious animals and I admit I don't know much more than that they're wild dogs and I imagine
00:22:10them to be like coyotes but online people seem to consider them rather timid and people would try to pet them an alley said that people will keep them as pets even though their wild animals so there was a perception that a dingo wouldn't have done this period soon
00:22:33the rumors a motive for one thing but the rumors of the families odd behavior was another so let's talk about the black dress because this this one really interested me this was a strange story yeah it's actually recorded in an early police report that when Lindy brothers aria
00:22:51and for her newborn checkup the baby was dressed in all black and that the doctor thought this was weird so he went and looked up the meaning of his arias name and it meant sacrificing the wilderness so according to Lindy the stress was actually a dress she made
00:23:08for her older son re again and she was it was just being used as a hand me down you can actually see this a picture of the stress on mine because it's at the national museum Australia and it's part of their collection and you can see it's Han
00:23:25of as aria and wanna call memorabilia I don't know what you would call it but they have an entire exhibit on and you can see it online it is a black dress but it has a red ribbon and it has red booties and Lindy wore a matching outfit
00:23:40yes to the to the doctor's appointment and she said people either loved or hated the dress if you look at any other pictures are yeah she's wearing white or pastel more traditional baby colors it's not as though they dressed her like Wednesday Addams all the time and for
00:23:58the meaning of the baby's name sacrifice in the wilderness I actually need to have a little side discussion with you so broke if you ever have kids how much would the meaning of the name play into your name choice very little what about you alley you have you
00:24:16have a couple little people what about you actually played on my job pot of naming our children and each of their names the meanings main something to us one of my kids I have five of them and one of them their name means gravelly homestead so I'm really
00:24:34I don't here that's a good one right so I don't I obviously don't care about much but regardless sacrifice in the wilderness isn't even what is are your means it means you know helped of god blessed of god some kind of variation on that paper nine yes so
00:24:52let's say you take a black dress and a baby whose name you think means sacrifice in the wilderness religious people you don't know a lot about and the baby dies in the wilderness so of course as are you must have been killed in a religious sacrifice I think
00:25:09there are stories that even link that chamberlain's to Jonestown which was the mass suicide of Jim Jones is peoples temple followers on the other side of the world which I don't understand how that could be linked and I have no idea I I was not aware that Jim
00:25:27Jones had any non Americans or non north Americans go down to ganas number they went wherever they went I don't think I didn't know that his people's temple made international yeah I didn't really study that I I mean I've done I wrote a paper on him and I
00:25:45didn't I don't think there was very many people now that we're done talking about the rumors that's a cold let's get to what we kind of I don't know all expect or probably even to some extent do ourselves and I'll admit it even when I talk myself out
00:26:02of it I judge the parents based on their demeanor its forms might early opinions of a missing child or murder child case even though I know I need to dial myself back because like Brooks said people process trauma differently but I think that's just human nature I think
00:26:18that we are we are designed to judge people based on what they search what's if you think of it from a primal side we do that because that's a survival tactic to be able to judge people and their safety instantly I am a child their best and I
00:26:38work with a lot of different parents and different children and I want to say I have learned a lot of lessons from that because in the beginning I would a parent would come in and they would be you know have a certain demeanor and I'll be like I
00:26:51know that this is not going to work like they're not gonna show up for their appointments and then they would be the best parent that I had ever worked with and so I've had to really like check myself in my biases when I have kids come because I
00:27:08I'm apparently not very good at that or I'm not as good as I thought it was at determining how the parents attend this is going to be you know and how they're going to follow through with the treatment based on how they look or how what their demeanor
00:27:21is yeah I think we all think we're better at it than we actually are and I think that played a lot into what everything Lindy and Michael particularly Lindy said or did or even a war became part of the speculation so when he was very attractive and she
00:27:40was very stylish suit she was the type of person who would make a matching black and red mommy baby outfits and none of this changed when as aria went missing so she would show up and people would think wow she's rather camera ready you know she's a trendy
00:27:57hairstyle she would wear late sundresses she didn't look what people expected a grieving mother to look like she has since said in interviews that she would cry and camera people would accuse her of acting when she wouldn't cry she was accused of being cold in one thing I
00:28:15read she said if some if you showed some people a video of the dingo taking as our yeah they still want to believe it yeah people just didn't believe her and I looked at a bunch of those early interviews and like I said I'm not immune to making
00:28:33those snap judgments based on how parents are acting and she was all over the place sometime she was crying then she kinda be hard and aggressive and not particularly like a ball and then there's an interview where a reporter I don't know challenges are a bit about the
00:28:52babies clothing not being torn apart as you'd think a wild animal would do and then she just she would matter of factly describes how dingoes handle their prey to explain how it could have happened it's kind of disturbing to you can't help thinking this is our child she's
00:29:09talking about but if I let go of that knee jerk reaction and kind of think it through maybe she was hard and aggressive because she'd been dealing with daily accusations about every aspect of her life and maybe she spoke kind of matter of factly about the dingo and
00:29:26what it might have done because she had just attached herself so thoroughly from the incident just so she could get out of bed in the morning yes so I don't think any of this the rumors when his personality any of that should be evidence in the court or
00:29:40even in the court of public opinion so again I was I think I said it before if using Lindy had something to do with this it least look at the evidence and not the rumors and what the media drug up about her it was definitely a and I've
00:29:59been de has said she doesn't like this wording but it really was a trial by media the first of many inquests started on December sixteenth nineteen eighty the car now heard from local park ranges about six recent really aggressive attacks by quite on quite time pocketing guys and
00:30:21these attacks were on humans and mostly children there was one attack where I totally was pulled out of a car and then mold by dingo the police put forth their beliefs that they believe the evidence showed that as our is clay thing was planted by Lindy or Michael
00:30:41that the clothes showed signs that they were removed by a human and not a dingo the police believing that there was no way I think I could carry a ten pound baby any distance after hearing all the evidence the coroner's report was highly critical of the police investigation
00:30:59he said that he thought that the Northern Territory police might have been against the ID it could possibly be a dingo attack and disregarded any evidence that pointed that way in the end the cardinal rules that it was his opinion that there was no evidence showing that Lindy
00:31:16and Omar Cole was responsible for Atari is death however he did say that the oddities in the baby's colliding it was consistent with Atari's bodypaint taken by dean guy but then disposed by person or persons on nine and the story should have ended day but it didn't because
00:31:37the card is criticism about the police investigation the police decided to continue their investigation after the inquest had finished the clothing was not photographed when it was found and where it was found it was photographed leader so this actually lead to some more rumors because like you know
00:31:53I'm on a rumor kick with this one there are rumors of the clothes were found folded and you know they were and how you would expect I mean I didn't go doesn't fold clothes however the reports actually indicate that the clothes seem to partially buried but they I
00:32:10mean they weren't string about but they weren't folded and a photographer found them right it kills me then the photographer didn't take any pictures he kinda just snapped a quick picture but as far as I know there are no pictures and what I read was that there weren't
00:32:25any pictures and that's what led to these rumors of how it was found and I think the car not was sort of suggesting that the police were involved in may be I'm gonna say tampering with the evidence but instead when they said that %HESITATION that he believes that
00:32:45as always body was taken by dean guy and then spies by personal persons on nine I think that was his way of maybe suggesting that the police were more involved with the evidence than they should have pain when we talked about this because I watched the video and
00:33:01I was like wait first in one breath he's clearing the parents of any involvement in the next day saying persons are persons unknown may have he interfered with the body of the baby and so I send you a message I think saying week I'm confused and you're like
00:33:17I think he was talking about the police which is why I think the police then I'm happy with that and they continue a quiet an aggressive investigation after that so was not normal after an inquest is complete for the police to continue investigating none are the corners made
00:33:36a determination that's not normal nine if they ask was speaking to you by this morning there wasn't one occasion with the Daniel Moore can case where the inquest did laid to %HESITATION further investigation and then a trial and then a conviction but that is very rare so the
00:33:56investigators continue to work on their case against Lindy some dingoes that were shot following the disappearance were dissected so they could look for human bones are protein or any kind of remains and they tested samples of his arias clothing to see if the tears were consistent with the
00:34:14dingoes teeth or if it was something that a human would have had to do with scissors or knife for some kind of sharp object I'm and then the dramatization I watched their messes their methods were highly questionable the one where they like through diapers at dingoes know the
00:34:29one where it like some of the evidence on the floor and he was like scooping it up off the floor yes they interviewed other campers who were there that night again and they noted that people who sell indeed just before as Daria was put down for the night
00:34:45assume that she was assumed that she was holding a baby when they saw her holding a when they start holding a white bundle to her chest one woman said she saw a part of the baby's head also the dramatization this hand to the baby but she seemed like
00:34:59a quarter of her head with a suggesting there that she was just had somebody folded up close pretending she had the baby or that the baby had already being killed I'm not sure what they're suggesting they think they were inclined to baby already been killed and even at
00:35:14one point in this a dramatization of the true story they had like this magazine cover with her and is already on it and they were saying like the child was already dead like in the picture like she was holding up like all the one he's holding a rock
00:35:28yes but that doesn't that doesn't account for what not just Lindy in Moscow hearing as our cry but of the camp is hearing her cry later on oh yeah it completely ignores every other witness testimony and what people actually testified to at the trial even so the early
00:35:46statements but I was reading an early police report on it and it actually made it sound like they thought maybe Lindy had killed the baby on the hike because the clothes were found near the trail though let's be honest if I mean I Google earth this the trails
00:36:03not I mean it goes around the rock everywhere near the rock is near the trail anyway the reason this looks like they're thinking this was their thinking is they made a point to say that no witnesses saw the baby after that point the only sell Lindy carrying around
00:36:21a white bundle but I find that hard to believe I mean why would she be carrying around this bundle she could I just told everybody over the baby's already asleep why walk around with an empty bundle and it makes sense if she was I mean she was a
00:36:35little baby and you don't want people touching %HESITATION and breathing on on you wrap them up and hold them so that people can't do that I always wore those costs baby slings and people be like oh can I see the baby and I'm like no thank you one
00:36:50cold and flu season is over give me a call but I mean it just doesn't line up with the eyewitness evidence and this theory falls apart pretty quickly and that's why it probably didn't go any further it was all leading to a September eighteenth and nineteen eighty one
00:37:07when the Northern Territory police finally got a warrant to search the chamberlain family home they searched it for more than four and a half hours and they seized over three hundred items for the home including clothes scissors and the yellow family car that they had driven it to
00:37:23their trip to the rock based on the evidence on the items there most of the house the motion was filed for a second inquest in November of nineteen eighty one and earlier alley I was asking you what what exactly is an inquest a cry you'll inquest is when
00:37:39the police believe that the person is distaste the investigation has been closed and they do the car now looks at all the evidence and all of this is my public record so which is why the investigation has to be closed because everything has to be on the table
00:37:57and so the car looks at all the evidence leading up to the person's death and surrounding the death and I make a determination on how that person died when an way it makes sense so the tipping point of getting this inquest approved was when they dismantled the car
00:38:17they apparently found a large amount of blood from a small child and the type of blood they allegedly found or their test was positive for is a protein in blood that you would see in a baby that six months or younger yes so the second inquest into his
00:38:37are is death opens on December fourteenth nineteen ninety one the police Barristan makes it clear from the get go that it's their belief that Lindy Chamberlin took as aria from the campsite on the night she disappeared and murdered her in the family's car with a shock object most
00:38:56likely seizes they argued that there was no way that the taste in his arias jumpsuit could be made by a dingo and it was more consistent with his accounts they also have made Lindy with questions about the blood found in the car asking her if she remembered seeing
00:39:14any blood or if she remembered cleaning any blood off the state's the blood evidence was enough to convince the karma and he started in his report that he believed that Lindy was responsible for as our is death and that Michael was an accessory after the fact and then
00:39:32it has to trial and I'm just gonna put this question here we don't have to answer to but when in the world do they think she did this I mean she was gone for five to ten minutes and I would assume that my knowing my eldest son which
00:39:47would have been about day eldest son's age he is always with me so I would imagine that he would have been with Lindy why didn't he say anything they certainly weren't that far out of I sight range if they can also hear crying I mean they weren't that
00:40:04far from their sleeping children I wonder about the sleeping brother in the same ten I know that after I put the child down for a nap I tiptoe around the house because I don't want to wake them up so I feel kind of confused about how the sleeping
00:40:17child didn't hear the dingo come in and and take a sister I have a variety of children and I have ones were you can bang symbols over their head and they'd stay asleep got it unfortunately that some my current top there you can't breathe too loudly or he
00:40:34wakes up so I think that's just a child dependent thing on the side my eldest we had an earthquake he fell out of bed and he's didn't wakeup so the trial start September thirteenth nineteen eighty two and Lindy is pregnant with her in Michael's fourth child when the
00:40:52trial starts so the prosecution's witnesses they seem to help the defense more than the prosecution's case the lotus if your men by Greg and Sally low they where the couple talking with Lindy and Michael on the not as Daria went missing they testified that Mindy was only away
00:41:12putting is our area to sleep but ten minutes at the most which as you mentioned Charlie it would have been a tight deadline to work with to commit a murder dot and dispose of a body even just temporarily Hardbody the light is also a backup Lindy's testimony that
00:41:31I heard as aria crying out after the Indy had returned from putting the baby to sleep another witness claimed that a dingo attempted to bought and pull her twelve year old daughter away and they the prosecution witnesses here the only witness I could say that added anything to
00:41:49the prosecution's story was Amy with a car I mean repeats the strange comments Michael said when the search party went out that she was probably dead by now and things like that and that means you Michael went off into the bush together a line for about fifteen minutes
00:42:07when the prosecution might argues that would have been when they buried as our area but it wasn't until the forensic experts were called to the stand that things started to go more in the prosecution's favor they indicated the blood passing on is always clay thing was what you
00:42:24would expect if her neck was cut with a sharp object such as seizes or not they can say only scissors and not sharp objects like dingo teeth and why scissors and not a knife but no why there was so score one seizes and that the jumpsuit tears were
00:42:44more like cats and not animal Tay's I met this Smalley pings of telling that they found in Michael's camera bag was what you would get from a cut up jumpsuit and the prosecution's argument was that means the heat as ares body in the camera bag temporarily until her
00:43:03and Michael could get a white and Barry is our area the defense can argues that the same league teams could be also left behind from a new on washed jumpsuit and that sometimes the chamberlains packed sorry is closing in there which I mean it's quite possible I've done
00:43:21that before with my I mean camber back when my kids were little I know you have a disposable a clean obviously disposable diaper in probably every single bag I own because you know you just bring stuff with you just so you have it me too and I don't
00:43:37even have children that's not weird at all so the evidence that would be a nice day aiming to the chamberlains case was that of biologists Jaco she testified that the blood found under the steering column was that of an infant however apparently all the samples used in that
00:43:57testing had been destroyed which co claims was standard procedure do you see this broke when you interview wrong Foley convicted people that they have trouble getting access to the evidence that could exonerate them yeah and usually it's because it's misplaced or it's standard procedure to to destroy it
00:44:16after a certain amount of time I did an interview once and they talked about how the justice system wants to get him down with and have finality in their judgment so that's the way that they can help monitor that you know okay case closed alright let's destroy the
00:44:32evidence but what confuses me is it wasn't what this was ten years light hot we looking at what two years right I don't understand why they destroyed the the evidence especially when they were looking at working towards getting a trial to convict windy sounds like a case of
00:44:53tunnel vision to me you know they were exactly trying to convict her and so they were going to make the evidence that they did have match their assumption yeah and then there was another witness for the prosecution crown witness Bennett seems he looked at about two dozen attacks
00:45:13by dogs on humans seem said that nothing about as are his disappearance was consistent with that of a dingo attack seems claims that he's research showed there would have been a lot more blood if a dingo attacked her and that there would be no way that a baby's
00:45:31head would feed into a dean guys chose however on cross examination the defense brings out a picture of a dingo with the head of a life sized baby doll in its mouth with the dean guys tastes reaching all the way down to the baby dolls ease the prosecution
00:45:49called almost forty witnesses and I swear half of them backed up the defense case exactly and they did not provide a motive which the US is the same I mean our justice system comes from England and so it's rather similar that motive is not necessary to prove to
00:46:08get a conviction in the United States or Australia so they didn't really provide a lot by way of motives not in the case of the media provided plenty of motives so the defense brings out their own dingo expert he said and just a warning but I'm going to
00:46:24get graphic here but this dingo expert Liz Harris contends that when a dingo was after a pricey the size of his aria there to relax the muscles in the jaw allowing it to close its mouth around upright enough to render it immobile Harris claims that in the dingo
00:46:43kills hate saying there's actually very little blood because they think I would get the pride in its mouth and simply shake its head until it breaks the price Nick besides this the rest of the defense witnesses were basically a that there to testify that Lindy was a great
00:47:01mother or that she displayed what you would deem normal grief at the loss of her daughter or two they were witnesses that could testify about the eyeing scary experiences with dean guys need to overrule all then you have vicious the dingoes were in that area on October twenty
00:47:19eight nineteen eighty two the jury retired to make the decision and by the following day they had the jury found Lindy guilty of murder and Michael guilty of being an accessory after the fact when he was sentenced to life in prison and Michael was given a suspended sentence
00:47:38Mindy gave birth one month into a sentence to another door Tara Kalay out Chanel new Kyrie chamberlain so one thing that I thought about and I can't help but wonder if she was found not guilty would she be like the Casey Anthony of the nineteen eighties basically should
00:47:56live under this cloud assuming she was guilty everyone assume she was guilty for the rest of her life but because she was found guilty and then appealed and the evidence was scrutinized to really a much larger degree I mean most people thought she was guilty and then it's
00:48:12gone to most people thinking she was not guilty not that I think anyone should spend time in jail for something they didn't do just so they could maybe clear their name one day I mean that's not what I'm saying but it was a thought that popped into my
00:48:25head about when someone's not guilty yet we still assume they are and this could have gone different ways I think about this Stephen every case and a lot of people have strong opinions either way on that one and I think that is Steven Avery is exonerated that many
00:48:45of the people who think he's guilty will still think he's guilty and he just got away with that and since I am in this case because even after all these years and astride opinion public opinion have shifted strongly in her favor but there are still people who doubt
00:49:00her innocence I was signed to Charlie early out that I spoke to people in my day job this week and I eat commented that there was just something shifty with her story so there are still people who question her innocence all these years later will link Allen said
00:49:17Lindsey gave birth for her her daughter while she was in custody after her conviction and two days after that she was actually released on bail pending her federal appeal is that common in Australia nine but did nothing about it nothing about this case is normal okay that's good
00:49:36to know because I was like how did she get out on bail pending appeal I mean obviously we've talked about cases where people been appealing for awhile and they all sit there while they wait even people who've had their cases overturned set there to wait for charges to
00:49:52be dropped it's it's very unusual but the deal was rejected and on April twenty eighth nineteen eighty three Lindy returned to jail and her daughter went to live with foster parents and the appeal rejection I just want to know it was three to zero however are not quite
00:50:10a year later another appeal was also rejected but this time it was a three two decision wait so where were the older kids living with a living with the dad because he only got it probationary or whatever that's called he got a suspended sentence yet I did not
00:50:25see where the boys went no I couldn't find anything that mentions the boys at all and he didn't get the doc he didn't get the daughter now and from what I read she went to a thought she went to actually a series of foster homes after Lindy went
00:50:42to jail for returned to jail so interesting to me maybe she was a boy that wouldn't have happened but maybe because of what he was convicted all of and it was another doors ha date nine that that's a good point maybe it was just not giving them another
00:51:02baby another opportunity to do it again right so a lot of people thought she was guilty and I was reading that when the guilty party came people were cheering but many people believe she was innocent and her supporters kept fighting for her over a hundred thousand people signed
00:51:21a petition for her release and the media of all people they were instrumental in turning people against her they started questioning the science behind the prosecution's case and not spurred on this free Lindy movement this case took a sharp turn in January of nineteen eighty six Lindy had
00:51:42always claimed that our daughter was wearing the outer jacket which is essentially like a card again for us Americans over here over her clothing and that jacket was never found and many thought she was lying about it to account for their not being dingo saliva all over the
00:51:58clothes that were found and in trial she described this as a white jacket with yellow trim in January of nineteen eighty six in English hiker named David Brett was climbing guru one summer evening when he lost his footing and fell to his death soon due to the to
00:52:18range it took eight days for searchers to find his body at the bottom of the rock and they found him in the vicinity of dingo layers while looking for some of his remains that were thought to have been carried off by the dingoes searchers did find a small
00:52:35child's jacket and it was white with yellow trim exactly like Lindy described and it was also found half buried lake the reports of how the other clothing was found and it was close to these dingo layers but the jacket wasn't the only thing discrediting the prosecution's case so
00:52:53that fetal blood that we talked about that was found under the steering column was actually found in ten percent of all the makes of that car it turned out that this sound deadening spray that would over sprays I guess what we would call it when it's all over
00:53:11the car where should it be that's being used in the manufacturing process caused both the discoloration in the false positive test and I had read that maybe there was another spot of blood that turned out to actually be over spell of a drink that had proteins in it
00:53:28a milkshake here a milkshake that would have pertinent so given that the clothing and the blood evidence for such a large part of the trial the whole thing started falling apart and on January seventh nineteen eighty six when he was released from prison after serving three years it's
00:53:45been reported that this release which was what a month after they found the jacket was actually more a case of political pressure then this case of wanting to write in and justice there is a journalist who had been following the case and wrote a speeding piece about how
00:54:03the Northern Territory government of the day mis handled this case and threatened to publish it if she wasn't released that's the story going around so since ninety had reached the end of all her legal options means he digs all said the appeals process at this stage so federal
00:54:23and tear tree lawyers had to be changed to allow for a royal commission to completely exonerate me Indian Michael I did usual inquests followed and in may nineteen eighty seven justice Trevor mauling issued three hundred and seventy nine page report which was highly critical of the original investigators
00:54:43and the techniques they used as well as key prosecution witnesses in the trial he thought that the eye witness accounts of of the campus of the nights that Zaria disappeared but they were more accurate because they sold the Indies immediate reactions and her behavior is and I believe
00:55:03that the dean go to because our area so it's fair to take these accounts as fact based on the evidence put forth in the role commission and the damning report of the investigation on September fifteenth nineteen eighty eight the Northern Territory court of criminal appeals unanimously quashed all
00:55:22convictions against Lindy and Michael after much insistence from Wendy in February of twenty twelve the fourth and final coroner's inquest was opened the new evidence that was considered included three fatal dingo attacks on children since the previous inquest these attacks happen on Fraser island which is off the
00:55:42Queensland coast of Australia there were at least four hundred documented cases of dingo attacks the one that was highlighted in the inquest was a particular attack in April of nineteen ninety eight where thirteen month old girl was dragged about one meter or about three feet from a picnic
00:55:59blanket at a campsite thankfully in this case the father saw the girl and what was happening and managed to save his daughter I've been so scary I can't imagine Australia skiers mail be honest any time I watch seven deadliest animals five of them are from Australia I heard
00:56:22the choppers were met I'm playing the fifth among consenting annoying icon the inquest ended on June twelfth of twenty twelve when the coroner said that dingo was responsible for as our is that which happened thirty two years earlier as our is dusted off again it was amended from
00:56:42having the cause of death being listed as unknown to death by dingo attack and in nineteen ninety two Lindy received a one point three million dollar compensation payment from the Northern Territory government for wrongful imprisonment which is tragic because I see this all the time but I'm gonna
00:57:00repeat it right now because it's so tragic you can't buy a person's time and a million dollars sounds like a lot of money but you can't give someone their time back the memories that they could have had you can't give them their babies for steps back you can't
00:57:14repay someone's time no matter how much money it is she was in jail for three years and for a baby because she had the baby when she first went to jail the first three years sore much happens as you said broke the first steps first words everything one
00:57:32thing that interests me about this this final inquest that she pushed for was she had already been financially compensated shed already been essentially cleared of all charges and the prosecution state case was just completely destroyed yet it really matter to or to have it official and great to
00:57:55have the record reflect that and it kind of reminds me of like Kerry Max cook who I was just thinking that right who I mean he was on death row he lost twenty years of his life he's even said I won't take compensation if you'll just give me
00:58:10my actual innocence that it matters so much to be declared actually innocent to have you know is already is cause of death attributed to the dingo like I think I would be like oh okay I've been compensated I've been cleared a moving on until I'm there and hopefully
00:58:27never will be I guess I just don't really no and it really it's really strikes me how important that is right and in some cases I've notices the difference between having to check the I've ever been convicted of a felony box on an application or being able to
00:58:45vote I mean I don't know yeah the United States has some odd rules about felons and how long felonies follow you and voting rights linked to having been a convicted felon it's ridiculous it's ridiculous it's punishing you for the rest your life is what it is so it
00:59:06was some strange claims of folate oldies inquests in July two thousand and four out free call who was a retiree from Melbourne he claimed to have seen a dean goes with the baby in its mouth at a time around when as are a dissipate and Frank claims that
00:59:26he had shot the dingo place interviewed Frank and decided that he story didn't add any reason to reopen the investigation I mean I guess I understand that at this stage the death the death certificate had been changed Mindy and Michael had been exonerated and there really wouldn't be
00:59:45any gang in re opening old wounds when Frank story was questionable at best and I do say questionable because our friend Frank he went to the media out with his story I made a whole heap of claims such as that he had the ribbons from his arias jacket
01:00:02as proof that he saw her being taken by the dean go indeed Kantor argues this and says that the jacket never had any ribbons and then Frank comes forward and claims that he was a witness to another crime that he stole convicted murderer I paid out to pass
01:00:20running from four canasta imagery after he brutally murdered Messina help obvious in November nineteen ninety seven so in August of two thousand and five a twenty five year old woman named Erin Horsburgh walked into a newspaper in Alice Springs which is the it's the biggest city close to
01:00:39the rock is in it yes and she claims she was as aria chamberlain now this sounds crazy but it's not unheard of I don't know if you guys know about their generated ought to Darrow keys and the father Allen recently temporarily shut down the Facebook page about a
01:00:59son's case because a man was harassing him claiming to be his son and there is evidence that his son is deceased and at the risk of stirring up a Hornet's nest by even bringing up the Johnny gosh case I do suspect that the man who Noreen gosh says
01:01:16visited her if he did visit her claiming to be Johnny may have been one of these bartenders so anyway Erin claim that she had flashbacks of being nine weeks old and feeling the dingoes jaws around her chin scars either on or hand or arms and she claimed those
01:01:34were from the dingos and what really clinched it for her was that when her son was born he was the spitting image of his aria Erin's claims were investigated but ultimately discounted by the authorities and by the chamberlain family pretty quickly in spite of this and in spite
01:01:52of a press release discounting these claims put out by the Northern Territory police the media ran with the story the police followed up those media reports in the interviews with this woman with a statement saying quote it is disappointing that it it received so much media attention given
01:02:11that we had advised the media that she was a vulnerable person and quote so I think the police realized that she may have truly believe to this she had been in foster care and adopted out she may have actually truly believe to this but there is no evidence
01:02:29the whole as aria trial did take its toll on the Indian Michael's marriage and they divorced in nineteen ninety one Lindy does go on record inside that the reason for their divorce was there before asari's death and the reason they didn't divorce early out was G. two days
01:02:49a United front for justice there's Daria and the fought to have the world recognize how dangerous do you guys are in February of nineteen ninety two Mindy was on a speaking tour out of the US and my American publisher at risk Crichton who is also a member of
01:03:07the seventh day Adventist church Indian Rick married on December twenty nineteen ninety two and I lived in Seattle for a few years before returning to Australia and I now live there basically my night is in the hunter valley of New South Wales Lindsay is now published author she's
01:03:25currently working on a children's book about explaining grief and loss to children and she's also a quite into Maine's public speaker sorry do either of you have any closing thoughts on this case the only thing that I really I feel like I want to highlight is that I
01:03:45do think it sounds improbable that a dingo would go into a ten and take a baby however there's no other scenario that makes sense with the evidence if the Lindy did it when did she do it she and as aria were around to people for all but short
01:04:02periods all under ten minutes and she killed her baby in a bloody manner without actually getting bloody herself and she hid the bodies so well that three hundred searchers can find her in a ten minute period all of that happen in ten minutes I just don't understand how
01:04:19she could have done it so while a dingo may sound improbable the windy doing it sounds impossible and I went into this thinking there's probably a fair chance she did do it and came out of it baffled that she was ever brought to trial I think that was
01:04:38the problem that there are delays in blaming the dingo it came down largely due to president that they hadn't been any other dean go attack quite to that man to cheat at that time and that was hard for people to wrap their head around but ultimately there was
01:04:55never any evidence that a person was actually involved and that is the point ugh everything presented as evidence was entirely consistent with a dingo or to dean guys having taken as aria from the drag marks to the bite marks on the clothes the the tracks what people heard
01:05:13what people saw what the track is thought that was what the evidence supported from the start I think it's so unfortunate that the media has such a big impact on things like this you know if you look at the Steven Avery case they played that clip of Kratz
01:05:32over and over and over again like every day before the trial and then that's where they get their jury pool from and I think that even that pull like investigators can't have bias and are affected by these things even if they try not to and so I think
01:05:47one of the big things here was tunnel vision they wanted to prove that Lindy was involved in this and so they made the facts well they tried to make the facts fit their theory rather than basing their theory on the facts and I eat imagine tunnel vision it
01:06:07has a lot to do with a lot of wrongful convictions and honestly probably has a lot to do with a lot of right full convictions I mean I think tunnel vision is hard to avoid so thank you broke the coming on a little podcast would you like to
01:06:23tell everyone more about where they can he you my show is called actual innocence and it actually is the story of people who have been wrongly convicted but the best part is it's in their words so I try to take myself out of the episodes as much as
01:06:40possible because what I have to say is not nearly as important as someone telling their own story about wrongful conviction so we took you right on out of your comfort zone tonight I actually tried to contact Lindy to see if maybe should be interested in doing an interview
01:06:59for my show and I wasn't able to get a hold of her so if you have a connection to Lindy and you would ask if she wants to be on my show my he is actual innocence pod and to mail dot com and if you want to listen
01:07:11to my show %HESITATION it's on I tunes it's on all of the the big names but you can also go to the website actual I. N. pod POD dot com and you can there's link stuff everywhere you can listen to it and information about the exonerates and you
01:07:28can find us on Facebook as well and we now have a Facebook page in a group so we will have discussion about this episode in the group so I just asked to join in and we will let you in are we also have an email address info site
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