Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the great epic poem attributed to Homer, telling the story of an intense episode in the Trojan War. It is framed by the wrath of the Greek hero Achilles, insulted by his leader Agamemnon and withdrawing from the battle that continued to rage, only returning when his close friend Patroclus is killed by the Trojan hero Hector. Achilles turns his anger from Agamemnon to Hector and the fated destruction of Troy comes ever closer.
Edith Hall
Professor of Classics at King's College London
Barbara Graziosi
Professor of Classics at Princeton University
Paul Cartledge
A.G. Leventis Senior Research Fellow and Emeritus Professor of Greek Culture at Clare College, Cambridge
Producer: Simon Tillotson.
United States


00:00:00this is the baby say this podcast is supported by advertising outside the U. K. this is the baby say thanks for downloading this episode it in on time there's a reading this to go with it on our website and you can get news about our programs if you
00:00:17follow us on Twitter that's B. B. C. enough time I hope you enjoy the programs hello the any on is one of the greatest works in world literature one of the first and most influential and explosive few crucial bloody weeks in the long Trojan wall when the Greeks
00:00:32might win at last invented the greatest warrior the god like Achilles will return to the fight and they give like a man on the leader who pulled rank and put him into an implacable fury the poem is composed in the eighth century BCE and attributed to how may
00:00:46yet the story is set low level than perhaps one hundred years before in the mists of the Bronze Age when immortal go loans had mortal children yeah everywhere we see the consequences about mortality we need to discuss the elite on his whole professor of classics as kings college
00:01:02London barber got to see professor of classics at Princeton University and Paul Cartledge age eleven to senior research fellow an emeritus professor of Greek culture college Cambridge pull college what's so why the story of the Trojan War of which this is a part it's a very big question
00:01:18%HESITATION and %HESITATION if we was to take the whole context to be some nine nine centuries that we have to think of roughly between sixteen hundred BC and about seven hundred BC and within not something is alleged to have happen namely a massive great wall out of which
00:01:37comes this one surviving artifact which is quite extraordinary sixteen finals in lines of %HESITATION ductility cake some into epic attributed to one composer but %HESITATION school is a very very divided on whether the malls ever anybody called home all anyone monumental composed and the coal is an alleged
00:01:59ten year I defy anybody to believe that the was such a ten years see each other Troy and truly is located by the engines as well as by a house owned the Dardanelles lovely rates between Europe and Asia and the was indeed a big city that's been excavated
00:02:19%HESITATION over many many years going back to the nineteenth century and there's no doubt that if the walls a real Troy then this is the site but off to a pretty much everything is in doubt and I'm speaking here as a historian so this how we gonna do
00:02:34with a nearly out how why did they go to war could you explain not I'm in most people know she's terrific for us but we must will get it out the way okay says enough %HESITATION is the the crudest an explanation %HESITATION in math %HESITATION there is %HESITATION
00:02:49story of the so called judgement of Paris Paris is nothing to do with the friend city this is the son of the king of Troy %HESITATION Priam and he was given a choice between three goddesses three of the Olympian Greek goddesses though they might be worshipped in Troy
00:03:08as well as in Greece and he made the mistake because the of the to go this is sort of choosing %HESITATION Aphrodite after the meeting the most beautiful goddess the goddess of sex as well as %HESITATION as you up the other two goddesses with them by implacably hating
00:03:26so when war broke on that so long why did you choose Aphrodite hopes and playing sex and %HESITATION mechanism to six must have been a reason she didn't just say six choose me this you so what happened crudely the most beautiful woman in the whole promised him some
00:03:42promising she happened to be married and so that was a challenge for a young man posing in his early twenties who then full went over as a guest of Helen her name was and her husband and then %HESITATION did that %HESITATION see home in the last slept with
00:03:57Helen may be rape to may be incinerated violently sees the old did Helen go of her own records generate in one version I stress anyone wishing Helen did actually go all the way back with parents to Troy thereby occasioning a huge loss of face on the bottom and
00:04:16the last who just happened to be the brother of the most powerful Greek king of the day Agamemnon of Mycenae and they're buying hangs the the traditional tale which is of Agamemnon getting together a huge posse Wilson ships innumerable men crossing actually a very short crossing from a
00:04:38man and grease to the Dardanelles and the rest is the Trojan War on we have god's taking different size innocently we do we've already mentioned %HESITATION free of them and %HESITATION rule of thumb is use father Zeus the greatest most powerful of all the guns he wrote the
00:04:54flavors Troy interestingly whereas of course hero and %HESITATION fino who with the too disappointed goddesses I implacably opposed to Troy and support the Greeks though the knot called Greeks they called Achaeans old Dan ends %HESITATION own guns and the the battle commences but it doesn't commence Homer goes
00:05:16in mid Diaz reigns in the tenth year of the war the India begin seeing muse and he %HESITATION singled S. which is the and in effect the muse is going to told us tell the tale money goes into that when I'm done this because the Pasco and goes
00:05:34on June some four thank you handle we mentioned %HESITATION we haven't mentioned the anger Achilles on it could be called an anger I can is the whole thing couldn't really what Hyundai's anger what provoke his anger and what would the consequences anger is actually the very first word
00:05:53causing Greek you can say Ralph saying gold SO Ralph got a saying of the kidneys and it is the first word it structures the whole thing %HESITATION it's forty days basically it's about forty days wet Achilles is unbelievably angry for twenty three and then finally gives up his
00:06:14rage at the very very end and this is what was so brilliant about it it's so it's also the theme he's not the only one who's angry when we plunge in Medeiros raise into book one the court a polo is actually unbelievably great because he's being dishonest by
00:06:30the Greeks as a business owner he's being dishonest because sun %HESITATION I commend alone is taken away the daughter of Apollo's high priest and she's Congress say is the preschool crises and he cools down the castle on the Greeks because of the way that his family as priests
00:06:47is being treated Paul is the first one who's really really angry and %HESITATION so the kiddies catch is that if you like because %HESITATION we answer I mean the very first line is Ralph build a thing but then it's over Kelly's whose Ralph both black and murderous and
00:07:06sent down to Hades many souls of Acadians saying that period when Achilles is Ralph killed off many many men on his and site that is how we open and it's not forty days wet because Achilles gets very angry at me fuses to fight all the way through until
00:07:23book eighteen in two thirds of the epic the great warrior refuses to fight on his refusing to fight that Angat with argument with his supreme command %HESITATION is what causes all these deaths of the cans what provoked the wrath well I can I can I'm not have to
00:07:40give up the girl cristatus he's he said Anatolian %HESITATION priest store sat because otherwise the plague the pull is sent against Dickens we start in a moment where everybody feels that everything is in crisis and %HESITATION so I can have to give up his go in response he
00:07:59takes Achilles guy he's got a similar name that begins with baby recess adjusters I'm gonna have her then I'm not the man known is is %HESITATION pulls rank as you say he is the supreme command he says that she does great set of words in Greek where you
00:08:14can say I am the top king I'm the king is king of the mole and I got my step to from the gold and I'm absolutely nuts to which I won't kid he says what she now you know all you may be by hierarchy to talk one by
00:08:29merit ally in the top one so we go straight into this clash of who is actually a better warrior on who is %HESITATION by heredity the talking circulars withdraws his is his muscle right retire issues tent which is a ship on refuses to fight until reparations mine and
00:08:47it's number in the med except by himself but at the very end so we have the actually I commend gets in a lot of Troy pulled isn't it doesn't it doesn't give into not to give into something else which will come to the now we will you tell
00:09:01me that because it seems to me that it doesn't it doesn't care about process and the troubles in the gold he gets only being in his silk he may have hot what happens is that his terrible grief %HESITATION on wound to his some sense of honor and pride
00:09:17it's trumped by the grief %HESITATION brief meant I'm I just think is are the different thing with pop the trouble is the nine it takes about one kind of anger and grief being replaced by something bigger and worse bereavement is worse than being insulted so the Greeks against
00:09:36the Greeks as well as a great paying as the Trojans I have to think the Greeks being gets the Greeks is formal versus informal prominent in the pan and then the Greeks against the Trojans it's the squabbles between I'm not just squabbles I mean raging manat cool fix
00:09:50it absolute fury and envy and anger and revenge and vindictiveness insult me the language they use to each other is worse than anything you tend to hear on the battlefield against the other side I'm not is a point that home who at the walls of the pilots of
00:10:05of of this power marching really trying to make is the Greeks all rivalrous weeks all brilliance but then very very bad at cooperating a new bridge rather proud of that rather like to feel as the independent persons yes the parts of that self definition %HESITATION house of an
00:10:22ethnic group in a linguistic group is that they are highly rivalrous in competitive very crucial part of the ancient Greek character not so I was getting bombarded his he can we or should we think of the story is set in a particular historical time well as then you
00:10:37mentioned in fact in the introduction and this is an important aspect of the aids this story even for the earliest audiences of the poem was set in the distant past when a human beings rat closer to the golf they want god like here's the west strong they didn't
00:10:55cooperate as Edith as is pointed out and %HESITATION they were larger than life stronger and institutionally less developed than the earliest audiences of the elite by which I mean that the %HESITATION a conflict that we have at the beginning of the poem is interesting but also exceptionally alarming
00:11:17because it results in the death of the people on whose side you're supposed to be fighting so the earliest audiences would've looked at these he has got to go to try to keep the listener yes this is Mrs composers agreed about the eighth century BC AB and on
00:11:32the eighth on written down a hundred or so years later but it's about something that happened about four hundred years before the US might have happened you know and the Greek themselves wouldn't have any easy way of saying four hundred years although Herodotus said that but the interesting
00:11:49thing is that Troy was a radio ruin at the time when the E. leads at took shape so that the stories in the epic stories with swelling around this massive and destroyed city at and the stories about how he became destroyed %HESITATION where it part of the imagination
00:12:10that was fueled by the remains at and it's interesting because for Homer these people who once fought to that way stronger than men as they are today more interesting more glamorous but also more pro problematic so you can look back at this mythical past maybe four hundred years
00:12:29but partly imagines potty mythical at and think about the separation between gods and mortals which has since become greater so I key lease of the beginning behaves exactly like Apollo as he did say it but then he doesn't anymore when Apollo gets reparation he comes down he stops
00:12:50the plague when Agamemnon says I'll give you back everything and more besides suddenly I Kelly says no reparation is not enough because my life is worth more than anything you can give me Apollo doesn't have the problem of mortality Achilles the house and that's where we get the
00:13:08separation between the logic of the gods Apollo and the logic of Achilles until the girls are operating on two levels here they're operating as god's divine they're going to stand up forever and playing around also operating as people of pot not some of the people in the store
00:13:24itself I mean I can is a semi divine Helen's semi divine and so it goes on which complicates it when they want to stop the children being killed for instance absolutely so they got themselves are an eleven landing because it's not just that to learn that he's mortal
00:13:39the gods have to learn that the divine and they shouldn't care so much about mortals so a in book twenty one we have the standoff between the guards they line up against each other and they may make the wall that is happening on the battlefield and Zeus is
00:13:53standing behind him watching at them and thinking is very amusing because it is amusing that they should be fighting and it's the goddesses who really drive this divine battle for it and that some point eight Apollo rather reluctantly and S. and in fact those items as to Apollo
00:14:12ha ha I suppose we should fight against one another and the bonuses to him why the only mortal we shouldn't care as much we should separate ourselves off from these creatures who live and die like leaves on the tree no idea what their wages might have been for
00:14:28these performances because presuming the oral for a long time and then the performances Boston a %HESITATION was gonna some idea of the size of the thing took three days were told all three evenings %HESITATION to perform community who who came to listen so the in it is a
00:14:45very great mystery because if we started with the question how did lead to just start we would imagine that a fast composition would be something for a specific purpose and location such as a wedding song and a song to to work in the fields with battle exhortation funeral
00:15:03laments and all these genres existed in the in the professor to them but what they did was full is a far far more difficult question to answer and it's a great mystery because it's not a pleasant problem I think we've already established that it's not pretty it's very
00:15:22demanding on an audience it's three days long so whatever this audience walls we have to imagine institutional backup for performance because you need to organize people to gather for three days %HESITATION how foods toilet break sleeping and so on and from early on we know that the poem
00:15:42was performed at city festivals but its its ruling in it into cuts poll college with the Olympic Games signs on every four as in the games and in the end to meet every four years yes this buddies that the culture festival goes on which this is again and
00:15:58again the centerpiece you'll run this is happening about the same time and I think the key term here as pan Hellenic in other words it is somehow representing an episode of a long one where astonishingly and on typically Greeks from different communities managed to collaborate over a very
00:16:18long period the Olympic Games is of course war minus the shooting so in other words in the early I do have war plus the shooting %HESITATION the union is power military exercise %HESITATION in a very nasty way the the Olympic Games is a little bit less so I
00:16:35understand that people did come you said that in %HESITATION in great numbers from all over the islands like they did for the Olympic Games yeah I'm from various things but they they had was a centerpiece well known as far as we know how far we've done and I'm
00:16:48very much a man this another tradition on this is when different cities rivalries come in Athens has very little actually to contribute to the story of the area thought they got in on the act by claiming that it was actually there on that one of them unique festivals
00:17:07the pan and a few not old Athenian games in honor of the FIFA the the first %HESITATION really serious collaborative effort with many poets reciting the the the ilia tendencies across the %HESITATION say %HESITATION happens so %HESITATION this is attributed to a particular car into my uncle by
00:17:27sisters as we're in the sixth century BC a sentry also later than we think probably the first monumental version of the ad was created somehow how people listening in the summer they listen to apply on its own I'm pathetic all day sitting on stone disease wrapped yeah it
00:17:43wouldn't be an amphitheater about being a %HESITATION Roman thing but on the other hand %HESITATION they would be I think in some kind of fear to the Greek with it it just means a space west but take to spectate when it comes to the pain of the night
00:17:55performances then we know the space we know where it's going to happen but we don't know where the planes were created we don't actually know who precisely where Homer is attributed to more than one city barbs written a whole book on that so you it's like spitting in
00:18:11the F. as someone who is fascinating things yet here we are discussing it as if it were real well it is incredibly real and I read it first in Greek way back fifty plus years ago and it is the foundation of western culture and really is Simba Allan
00:18:29how much as you see this is would basically seem to be a story of strong man and stronger man and we command but man man man and wall wall wall mostly what ages who the women have in this well they do have some agency it's true that the
00:18:43economic structure is setup that men make war on they go and a crop stuff of other places in and they can get lots of riches and they got lots of cattle and they did get women %HESITATION %HESITATION they burned cities women all on the other hand trying to
00:18:57make babies trying to make families and unbelievably for huge unbelievable not that I'm trying to make beautiful textiles I mean this is what they do in terms of moral agency that is a category of option that we def definitely see women behind the scenes trying to organize their
00:19:14analyzing the get out super say it's for example %HESITATION tells us about nineteen that she was really trying very hard to get married to a kiddies to still being just a concubine who we could sleep with it will reject it will actually get some proper status and we
00:19:30have from Helen thought the all the Trojan women don't talk to her said they haven't used that agency they hate her because that manner on sons a daunting so we hit these little dilemma string behind the scenes the men Duke six %HESITATION Hecuba queen of Troy on Faye
00:19:46honor the high priestess of Athena do the most spectacular ritual to try to get Athena to stop the warrior who's currently rampaging around he's called on me days it's not their idea it's Helen is that profit but they do do it so they do do things more importantly
00:20:05it's that role to express the pain seven but one we have faxes on all the names of the C. lamenting preemptively for Achilles is fate on a book twenty four we have %HESITATION all the prominent women in Troy including Helen from starting with Cassandra when she sees the
00:20:22corpse of affected we have entre Mickey on that keep on hand and all the ones who do pull the emoting fact is work is this is just about one of your own I truly can't remember which one it is not the Trojans will weaken because that more of
00:20:37that woman expressed %HESITATION reservations and gave advice to them and because they were there in Troy was the Greek women went back in the Greek island well off the usage of can you answer that and well and we see it particularly when Hector meets his wife in book
00:20:56six Andromache she has he has to go back into the city inorder to ask his mother and the priestess to %HESITATION a big enough for %HESITATION in deliverance in the ritual that either so it's just described and in doing so we see how each and every one of
00:21:15the women important to him tries to keep him inside the city and safe and they do it by their own methods his mother tries to offer him some wine and is very worried about his physical well being and incidentally in the marching of a medieval manuscript of the
00:21:32elite some monk wrote mothers always try to feed you so his continuity that in what Hector's mother tries to do and what mothers in general try to do and then we have Helen who tries to seduce him as I see it and says sit next to me it's
00:21:47so terrible that you have to fight for me have a bit of comfort and then his wife performs effectively funeral lamenting front of him and says do you want me to end up a widow you've got to stay here you have to stay safe and all of this
00:22:03of course potentially weakens his resolve to go back in this great anxiety about when he would extricate himself and return to his comrades on the battlefield the Greeks don't have that problem but again it did the day he goes because of a sense of on %HESITATION those on
00:22:21a the shame in not being brave %HESITATION those that destiny that you have to follow all these things are playing in and out all the time pull pull carnage an Achilles returns to the attack a job to be part of the Greek force when his %HESITATION friend Patrick
00:22:39close is killed now this friend is a and %HESITATION %HESITATION Midland think I'm some people think that was on the sector I hear something soon as a relationship of of of brothers because they're brought up together %HESITATION so what do you think left foster brothers because when he
00:22:55was very very young and this is the ghost of Patrick close himself speaking and right at the end of the bar him he tells us how he killed accidentally the son of someone else and so he was exiled from his home and Achilles's dad **** took him and
00:23:10so as you say they were they were foster brothers what the relationship was in the sexual sense is not made explicit to the tool is not indeed %HESITATION alluded to in home **** when we come to the classical period by which time the institution of Peter rusting that
00:23:27is an old %HESITATION and I thought my own the adolescent boy %HESITATION in the men touring as well as physical relationship was normal among certain classes then by a process really of a necrotizing Easter listen his moment ands makes it absolutely explicit the there is a sexual relationship
00:23:46because it's the fine of Patrick because that Achilles this particular attracted to and that is a key part of physical homoerotic homosexual relationships in the classical notion of Pete arrestee I can this is withdrawn from this for yeah and Patricia stays with them much of those counts stand
00:24:04being out of the struggle %HESITATION killing him is %HESITATION up and says goes for but don't go too far but this goes too far under golden to mortals killing and the alignment and on the revenge that %HESITATION like it is today is a great just anger this getting
00:24:23out of the bottle what's your view on this is what it to me %HESITATION people side is a horrible time I think he thought you were the mystic selecting perhaps in world history what happens at the moment that Achilles hairs that Patroclus is that is that we answer
00:24:38an emotional %HESITATION sequence that goes on fit for life books where his rage he tries to assuage his rage he festivals arms out the ships and he howls to the heavens result homes and look like to come off his head let him go I saw him back and
00:24:56then he goes and gets his alme from his mother and he goes into a bottle of the S. skirmishes with heck to which with a disappointing we did not she get the full %HESITATION showdown with Hector at that point he kills off dozens of Trojans on the rampage
00:25:11even gets in the river where he kills off more and more more even once banking for that lives then he when all the boxes through he still will not eat he still would wash I'm we do the future of the patrol close he makes his men all the
00:25:27other groups or ask about conceiving the **** he makes them how old night long enjoyed the cherries all night long on this because all the books and books and he cannot get rid of his rage what would you take of that rage at that particular time about so
00:25:42there is a way in which the rages transformed he doesn't care about how the men on anymore again I'm not so it's great to back fighting yet have the gifts and he says later I don't care about that and he focuses on that the reef months and the
00:25:56refund is described in great detail to the points that %HESITATION medical experts have said these are the symptoms of bereavement and you can see them cross culturally and what we begin to see at the end of this form is that the %HESITATION and pain of Achilles at the
00:26:16death of his closest friends Miro's the death and the pain that I am the father of hate to feels when his own son needs them go to it because what here is does because with Hector as the port finally finished off the trucks and I can is goes
00:26:37through Weisser rivers bush's favourite website but find it gets hectic out to fight and quickly Porsches them all and then drag him on the walls of Troy twelve will three times since rex's body %HESITATION and then then one of the great changes all of you right and take
00:26:55this fall that comes out in banks market is to give him back the body of his son so that he can give them a decent burial sure hands that's when a kid is becomes mortal and stop spending like a hump divine have moved on and in fact the
00:27:10goals of already had a conversation about this because and Apollo was %HESITATION horrified by the way and I keyless was behaving and said quite clearly Achilles has to learn PT and to fear and shame pity and shame of the two things he identifies Hans feelings that are approved
00:27:32could for mortals for human beings and these it is important to note this our social feelings that you always feel them in relation to your community and appalling system this and teaches kids a lesson by running even faster than him which is of course and point of honor
00:27:50for an Achilles and eventually we arrive at the point in which a key lease is the son of his mortal father where as of the beginning of the porn he behaved very much as the son of his immortal mother so we have that transition pull pull college did
00:28:07the alien reflect what the Greeks great character the Tom wanted IT help form it will not soon I think was no such thing as the Greek kind to it reflects mores it reflects an upper class aristocratic mentality which remained constant and indeed controversial because it was against the
00:28:25outlook for example democracy arises as a reaction against but it is the dominant %HESITATION %HESITATION ideology and it certainly was very helpful for the aristocrats of the eighth century BC to have a program that %HESITATION seem to justify this superiority because it's a superior to buff as well
00:28:45as of education upbringing and consciousness absolutely %HESITATION so he's very stressed in India and is in your economy and noble war in this you number the bone you can do a great deeds but you you know that the the %HESITATION back on birth is a key factor in
00:29:00this the %HESITATION first real bloodshed and the power and it's actually one of DCS beats up with his facts up with the septa the working cloth character who tries to start a mutiny societies on the first blood that flows is when they set his back is not sleep
00:29:21in it slashed with the septa and it's an incredibly tense and exciting moment in book two we have the big fight between Achilles and I commend no no fat merit and who does all the work versus privilege and but one that is on merit down one Klaas in
00:29:36book two when societies tries and you sneeze that's why we will hear doing all the work for nine years already when we can't sleep without wives at home %HESITATION and that's a very very tense moment because he does get the man behind him in the camps for a
00:29:52few lines and if you want cheap full not love life with people there is a real tension as to who's going to win and it's all about love to a deceased manages to turn it round until the laughter get societies to being love a clause in great my
00:30:07diesel so ugly then the %HESITATION the men %HESITATION running away son Malcolm and sexy suggested perhaps because you know we we all ready to give up and not doing bring in their own way so that some of the start running off in the distance it is who chases
00:30:22off him when he meets a man of the aristocracy intereses them with reasonable words of persuasion when he sees the lower classmen such as the the simply hopes him number these episodes are part of a technique that homa uses more generally which is to ask the what if
00:30:42question what if has fight is had persuaded the Greeks what if at a dominions crazy plan of saying all let's just go home and had obtained all the way through the point although we know that choice is going to fall there are these moments in which we have
00:30:59the counter factual %HESITATION and vain Troy with a full and bright band had this happen but he didn't happen and this is a way of keeping the old in some way because we've got three three nights so three days of recitation going and there is a lot of
00:31:13exploration of possibilities that I'm not thankful field in the mail it's is so extraordinary how powerful sense of honor and shame on me neither side really wants this both sides so for now you can click on the icon see well I conceive you you seem much and gain
00:31:31and everybody resents the fact on both sides of Paris to Helen away from from grace on so and so forth what they do when they died I mean they're critical readings that say the tragedy this is an ever since the second World War people have read it is
00:31:46a great pacifist polemic about the pain and the suffering of of fun I'm afraid we're talking about an ancient Greek warrior society whether it's the thirteenth the eighth of the fifth century BC which is almost always at war women a train football I may not reek selected Bible
00:32:02and that may be what it be lots of women you wish they'd hang it up stop it but not all the aristocrats are still proceed knew what to do that is how they spent the whole time training and I think they found the poetry of it very exciting
00:32:16you referred casually to homers if he were real now the so much discussion about the unreality of home of the I don't we haven't gotten that much time but what's your view they was the one person %HESITATION was a collection on this name of the blind added to
00:32:30it but soon will do him what starting with your lover set to start with what we actually know at which is not much and clearly the problem came out of a long tradition of oral performance of composition and re composition without the aid of writing but also equally
00:32:45clearly this poem was written down because we have it so what happened in between at very is flexible and stories about the Trojan War and this one monumental epic which quite clearly tries to do the whole tradition by singing of only a few days because it's not so
00:33:04the catalog of ships it announces the debt and the through the death of hike to the fall of the entire city we don't know but what I would say is that clearly this was a problem meant for re performance you're not going to construct something as monumental and
00:33:21normal us and with such investment without thinking this is something that is going to stay with us if one person was solely responsible all weather we have say as some have suggested a collaboration between and it's fun oral point and the technologies of writing coming in this is
00:33:39something where I think intellectual modesty is required a lot of my colleague home race have you know said one thing of the all that's had a peak battles about this and carry isn't made and broken but actually we have to remember that it is possible for great artifacts
00:33:57to come out in various different ways either one creative genius or a creative genius collaboration money intake is the the genius consists whoever it walls in north describing the full of Troy in the area why is the let cool the is that it's a nonsense because ilia means
00:34:17the point about illegal sweetly on Troy and actually try doesn't full in the area and it's not about the death of Achilles which is the most interesting and exciting aspect because of what was then thought about the fact that he lives social to life and yet he live
00:34:34long eternally in memory so those two I'm city called no facts about the Trojan War story excluded though Adam rated referred to and so on brilliant absolute genius the the whoever it was not imagine the was one guy I cool in the monumental I call him the monumental
00:34:52compose but %HESITATION Sir I'm just going to say I'm actually getting a full hive mind here it is so good because five hundred years of different kinds of poetic talent went into it who ever put any finishing touches that did make the sun sets in the unity in
00:35:09the forty days wonderful counsel for them but he could not all she could not have done that say well if the help being so many brilliant minds already gone into a seventy five hundred yes under the month long you you you you will miss it will tell me
00:35:24because I don't know but it seems to me it was about the sixth century BC appreciate that it was set in concrete I'm not isn't worth one hundred yes that's when you send in in that day genetic I stopped the fifteenth century Muhammad number mom used to talk
00:35:36because it costs much these owners of once he was put in session that way he was continuously amended I thought the other thing was to second that might be percent don't change one thing if I may thinking about yeah %HESITATION can I clarify here because again the evidence
00:35:52we have is very incomplete about how fixed the text walls in the six entry this is a matter of debate but only evidence we have it cannot be entirely decided at that all variants that I recorded for us but they are few so the people who say we
00:36:12have a multi takes of homa right down to the Hellenistic period and some people do I give that don't have much evidence to go well we do have as evidence and this is important is that the rap since the people performing the Iliad and the Odyssey had a
00:36:26lot of social pressure on them not to change the text so that a reading the six entry one line apparently gets added and there's a scandal about one line out of almost sixteen thousand %HESITATION because it's it's meant to be Athenian that that wasn't actually thank you for
00:36:44that but it also but what I was saying we note from various things to do with the actual language in it that it uses Mycenaean Greek quite often on that it was almost certainly already information in my view by the thirteenth century or the twelfth century on that
00:36:59we're talking that for about five hundred years long before the Phoenician phonetic script is introduced in it's written down five hundred years of people playing around with how should we do the bit where is that you see sees how should we do debate whether societies fight stop and
00:37:14developing in making better better realize when I say hive mind community of Angela that's quite a lot of evidence that the language itself %HESITATION because of the way that the Greek dialect developed in the missing W. noise and so on there is certainly they will say in my
00:37:29in linear feet which is the script of the Mycenaean several names like Achilles I'm in Denver on these cultural ready that I'm one for much much longer period of development we full cycle lots of visual representations of minstrels and the Mycenaean era so I'm for a much much
00:37:48longer era of emergent some I think most of the scholars who are fashionable currently with as a historian and I had to qualify that slightly that so far as the social customs the imagined %HESITATION background in which the heroes moved that the house is Fay living such as
00:38:05of these old it seems from the archaeological evidence much nearer to the moment of monumental composition them to the Mycenaean parents %HESITATION I'm entirely with you very long tradition but an awful lot of the stuff that some the background noise if you like of the epic %HESITATION jewels
00:38:24and whether that is more ninth eight sentry than it is twelfth eleven separate we come in I'd like to talk about a couple things are coming in one what about the repetitiveness of the language they on the repetitive at the M. repetitiveness of the images attached to the
00:38:41heroes of the basin heroines of what does not give see the repetitiveness has to do with the technique used to compose without the aid of writing so that you have for me lead ready made bits of language that you can use and and we have the right rhythm
00:38:58and that you have pre memorized so that you build it out of pieces of language that our already in your repertoire and for modern readers the difficulty is that this sounds a little bit repetitive and I had students of course complain saying well dawn of the rosy fingers
00:39:14is nice once but you know fifty plus times it becomes a little bit at less thrilling but it is expressive because it links everything to how it should be so Achilles is swift footed he should be running on the battlefield chasing the enemy as he eventually does at
00:39:31the end of the pond but for most of the point he sulking motionless in his tent so the traditional language of homa reminds us of how the story all to go and how things ought to be and often there is a tension between at the traditional formulations that
00:39:50I used and the specific situations when I described in the story resume to the story was known to the origins of what sense of jeopardy of us there when they were listening to it %HESITATION my therapy you may have watched Clint Eastwood revenge movie twenty times you're still
00:40:05going to get very excited just before thought she found some people are well it all depends on how one is full no I think you've got if you've got a fault that can really make an electrifying atmosphere you know all I've seen on on financial options by Shakespeare
00:40:22about a hundred times %HESITATION I'm still always worried about whether they're actually going to you know kill themselves at the end or not in the hands of good actors but there is a genuine point about whether the myth was as it was fixed and the other was the
00:40:34central story components and just give you one illustration from a later period Agamemnon is not killed in east Gillis by guess those he's killed by Clytemnestra in Homer he's killed by a guest this as any normal creek would expect so in other words you can play around if
00:40:52you're in drama you possibly come play around if you're in the epic finally what impact is it possible to summarize the impact of this and it's just enormous them and what is enormous me well it's the %HESITATION Plato in composing the Republicans we translate that excludes poets from
00:41:10his ideal state because he wants to express exclude homa homa is absolutely the the elephants in every Greeks room Alexander the great had it rolled up and took it everywhere he probably would not have invaded doctrine on it could pose your if you have not been seized by
00:41:29the it out changed his face of course the Romans considered themselves to be as of the Trojan refugees and the story about the survival of Troy through in yes traveling on to easily and founding Rome is foundational for Weston conscious so that's another way in these consider simple
00:41:47vitally important for the development of that %HESITATION Oprah and sons of fools basically western culture absolutely wonderful Sybil he told a bomber does his he and Paul Connelly's next week %HESITATION is causing the history about how much a sophisticated machines apparently human on all they are %HESITATION they
00:42:06know she's going to replace us thanks for listening and the in all time put costs get some extra time now with a few minutes of bonus material for Melvin and his guests first how much force this is what we should have talked about that there was a little
00:42:22bit two thousand rebel if you've disabled the right movements those and then I I don't know you know you're still being recorded for the one the room is full I missed that %HESITATION hot shirtless was killed in the way he was by heck told the only because Apollo
00:42:42intervened heck tool is killed by Achilles in the way that is only because the intervention of a of a fina this very thing you and I might think Patrick Lewis was killed by Hank till two was killed by Kelly's put integral to the story the gods and goddesses
00:42:59they don't fade away they don't set things in motion they're actually that I thought I should win but also the said he was killed by a golden to Matthews date some you didn't specify which calls and while much of what we were going ground zero one two to
00:43:16six talk about just the way that the show is also another very good nature we decide whether it's a thing you know sort of you know Dalton down like a me too you'll or it's zero thank you all of it with somebody but don't count to between not
00:43:32wanting you sorry there's lots of social logical things Clinton won in the last two questions are gonna Monson anyway one but what about what about just a small a small section on the end on a prime an Achilles meeting and the women amusing because we haven't done the
00:43:51end of the phone model lying on I can give you us but nothing you're covered a lot of ground yesterday and I didn't think I'd be when I said to you comp jokingly is not true that if you want to come with ideas about the peace whatever it
00:44:06is in this case yeah let him very very important to say you do usually be able to find my sis and Minnesota poorest questions on us was one to speak when someone else is I I find this is a structural to roll in another time the only have
00:44:22a point to make when someone else is making that point and it goes into assistance in that with some of the we have to look around actually yeah yeah what's the business number so that Helen was semi divine which is of this you didn't we don't know you
00:44:36know yeah he told which apparel psychologically tortured she's tortured she wishes she wasn't home so I mean Achilles distorted help keep the store it's it's it's it's the greatest sort of support her drawmer in world history as long as well as everything else including the sickness in Europe
00:44:55in these she was new and the roses so she wasn't in the one that would have given it makes me she's she's she misses her husband and her parents were a little this is a little quiet room terrible but she still goes on on slate for parents want
00:45:13when the opportunity arose and she is a tortured person missional led to that because he's he's rescued from his battle with mental illnesses hunt on and so %HESITATION does the goddess reckon she gets to fail funny moment action went on when the goddess of for ninety days places
00:45:34at Paris in in bed with Helen and then and then take this is him what are you doing yeah how did you get here and he says I don't rightly know but we still know that that having sex and when not told that the right to an education
00:45:50at the end of book three %HESITATION I think it is the psychological to a German is that he's an Achilles is Donna shallow I have a short and glorious life or shall I just go home and live out my old age you we didn't actually we didn't get
00:46:03on our street come on I think men than it is it's a is there any consensus about the relationship you and can isn't Petropoulos and Patroclus that there is no homosexual sex whatsoever between them in and out there's plenty outside the area whoever put that thing together in
00:46:18the form it said not only decided not to buy cheap make sure he tells us that they each sleeping on this it's most of the time the room with their own women think that is a detail that someone has gone out of their way to put it on
00:46:32I think think that makes it much more profound and if you do actually read I'm not one of these people who thinks that the layout is about posttraumatic trusts stress disorder however when you read about what happens and %HESITATION to ordinary soldiers especially when they got a week
00:46:47commander that I trust that that not trusting commanders crucial thing shin that way they get just one other soldier in an intense friendship multiple sexual but they call each other mall they could each of the pope they baby a chopper because when you're stuck in some swamp in
00:47:06some part of the world that you don't know without one intense relationship unless you think by not making it sexual they have is completely trumped the relationship with precise S. young that's very good point only I am ready to anyone else I agree with you well thank you
00:47:22very much for giving us good what's your coffee in our time with Melvin Bragg is produced by Simon Tillotson hello I'm Evan Davis and I'm here to briefly tell you about mine you part cost sweet reason these a polarized times debate some social media a pretty shallow he
00:47:39sometimes a temple to the extremes seven six programs we're trying a bit of an experiment will be trying to have reasonable discussions on the most emotive of issues topics like patriarchy or whether people are too ready to take offense these days identity politics that kind of thing I'll
00:47:57beat with guests in the studio adoption about as well and my mission is to foster agreement or at least to better understand disagreement say do subscribe where ever you get your podcasts

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