Full Transcript for Jesus Has A Penis (with Therapy Brothers)

00:04:21.839 It's a great path. 00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:22.879 Amen. 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:30.399 I'll I'll tell my story in kind of a different way, maybe a little piece of it that will illustrate how I ended up here. 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.120 How did I know Tyler was struggling? 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:39.199 Because pretty much every guy our age at that time was. 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:41.839 And the internet had just come out. 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.639 There was a lot of just a lot of purity culture and rigidity around religion. 00:04:46.720 --> 00:05:00.639 And so so that it was this perfect mix of things that were just coalescing that it was like a shame storm and a secrecy storm and an addiction machine, you know. 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:09.759 But backing up just a little bit, I graduated with my degree in economics, and I got this job as a recovery auditor. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:18.000 And I I got to sign my cubicle, and I was making phone calls, recovering money for big businesses, and hated it. 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:28.639 And I went to work one day, and I remember I got lucky, I got to sign this case for DuPont, the big company. 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.959 And they had made a double payment for 1.2 million bucks. 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.079 And so I recovered 1.2 million bucks in like a phone call. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:42.879 Just like, and I was I that the face you're making, Drew, I was like, oh my gosh, I just recovered 1.2 million, right? 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:44.160 Like this is crazy. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.560 And my boss was excited and stuff, and then we called DuPont, and they were like, eh. 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:50.959 Oh, whatever. 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:51.439 Okay. 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:52.959 Oh, okay. 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:54.000 Dropping them. 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.560 And it hit me like I'm sitting in this cubicle. 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:58.319 There were no pictures on the wall. 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.800 I just recovered over a million bucks, and I was just like dead inside. 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:04.959 I'm like, what am I doing? 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:09.680 And in the meantime, Tyler was like helping kids in Idaho. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.279 Like he was just like, you know, like in the battle with these kids. 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:32.879 And like I was a young guy, I had just got married, and I was like looking at my life, and it I realized I gotta do something where I feel like I'm in the arena where I'm I'm engaged and I'm I'm connecting, I'm helping, and I'm I'm doing what God's asking me to do because I wasn't doing that at that job. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.920 So needless to say, it's been a long journey. 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:40.560 I'm so grateful I made that decision to actually step in. 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:42.560 I haven't been grateful every day. 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.399 Some some days I've questioned that, but for a while now I haven't. 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:53.439 And I'm just really, really glad that that I found myself working with this population and doing what I do. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.000 And I know that God led me here. 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:57.680 That's awesome. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:01.600 And how unique for you to do this work together as brothers. 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:03.600 It's such a gift, you know. 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:10.480 Like, you know what it's like when you're working with people and their problems and things, it gets pretty heavy and can be lonely sometimes. 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:16.560 And most people have their own therapy teams or they're have their own coach teams, or sometimes people in private practice. 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:24.480 I don't know how they do it, but it's great to have a brother where I can call him up on a bad day and be like, I'm done, I'm out of this career, I'm leaving. 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:29.920 And he just kind of like listens for a minute, then he laughs at me, and then he talks me through it, and then I'm like, oh no, actually, I love my job. 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:30.879 Like, thanks, bro. 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:35.519 Like, you know, so it's it's nice to have someone in the trenches with you for sure. 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:43.920 And you guys have so many resources on betrayal trauma, so many episodes where you're answering tough questions. 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:50.240 The episode that one of my listeners shared with me that stood out to me so much was called Jesus Has a Penis. 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:51.839 Can you say more about that? 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:59.600 Yeah, so I've written a book that I haven't published yet, but I I need to follow through like like you, Drew. 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:19.360 Um but that that comes from uh really my my my story of I was the guy who the way I I got started in marketing my practice and getting involved with the with the battle here, what I thought was I need to go stop guys from looking at porn and masturbating. 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:34.879 Like that, I need to go in, I need to tell them it's wrong, I need to drive home that they need to stop, that there's this wave, there's this, there's this epidemic coming, and it's gonna take over the world and watch out because it's evil and bad and all the things. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.279 And and so I did that for a while. 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:38.559 And what do you know? 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:49.360 I actually filled up my practice that way because I was speaking to a narrative that was just really prevalent with where I lived. 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:56.240 And what I realized was yes, porn we we could call it evil. 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.360 Yes, guys were struggling, their marriages were falling apart. 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:25.600 But going in and just in a way, continuing the message of reject your sexuality in order to be of God and good, that actually is counterproductive and doesn't lead to one recovery from addiction,

two, peace for people, and three, um, trust in relationships. 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:33.759 And so to examine this and look at this and say, is sexuality actually of God? 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:44.159 Is sexuality a thing that is an important part of his creation and who we are as human beings in our experience? 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:45.919 And the answer is yes. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:50.399 So that message needs to come into play here. 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.559 And I just want to say this, Drew. 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:57.200 It's it's interesting what you said about the name Jesus has a penis. 00:09:57.440 --> 00:09:58.720 What's fascinating about that? 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:03.600 You said it's provocative, and I know it is, and that's why I named my book that's Brandon's style, by the way. 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:05.120 He likes to be provocative. 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:11.200 Yeah, but but but let's just stop for a second and ask why is that provocative? 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:12.480 Right? 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:15.840 Like, seriously, why is that provocative? 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:25.200 Thinking of Jesus and sexuality and putting those two together, a lot of us, the way we've been raised, it's like that alone is just blasphemous. 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:25.919 That's weird. 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:27.919 It's like you don't, you don't, it's taboo. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:37.679 You don't talk about Jesus and sexuality together because we equate sexuality with Satan and sin, not with Jesus. 00:10:38.240 --> 00:11:03.120 And that alone kind of proves what I'm talking about here, that the the underlying issues of Christian men and women for that matter, automatically, systemically rejecting themselves as sexual beings sets the table for the adversary to just just have sexuality come out sideways in every which way and compulsivity and addiction and all this stuff. 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:05.039 So I'm very passionate about it. 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:10.799 I know you are too, Drew, but the overall message is sexuality is of God. 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:14.320 100% yes. 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:36.879 And while that sounds really good as a bumper sticker, when we get into some of the practical reasons why that might be provocative, I'm thinking about many wives and sexually betrayed partners who see the penis as a threat, who see it as the problem. 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:45.120 And a lot of guys feeling like, I need to reject my sexuality because it's destroying my marriage. 00:11:45.759 --> 00:12:00.480 The world that we live in, so many people, and this is where I think Brandon's point is, is that we've been taught to self-reject so much that it actually leads to it penting itself up and then coming out in lots of different ways that are actually outside of our values. 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:11.600 And when we act outside of our values, then we feel bad about ourselves, we feel shame, and we start to look at things and say, man, I blew my life up and I blew my wife's life up, and I'm like this is really, really dangerous. 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:21.840 And for a betrayed partner, if her experience is that this power has been misused in those ways, then of course it's gonna be scary and dangerous. 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:38.159 And here's the weird paradox that's so hard to wrap our heads around is if you ask a let's say a betrayed wife what she really wants in her relationship, most of the time you're gonna hear her say things like first and foremost, I want to feel safe. 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.879 Secondly, I want there to be trust. 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:44.320 I want to be like cherished and protected. 00:12:44.720 --> 00:13:04.960 And when you look at this, the pathway to those three things, safety, trust, and being cherished, actually has to go through a man working a process of complete self-acceptance, acknowledging that he has energy in him that can either be of God or it can be misused. 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.279 And when we deny that it's there, it's only going to be misused. 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:17.919 But when we accept that it's there, I can accept now that I'm dangerous to my wife. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:28.879 And that danger can be harnessed and channeled and put into a relationship where it can be passionate and purposeful, and that energy can flow into our relationship. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:38.639 It'll also help me to protect my family when I'm dangerous, but I need to know how to channel and harness it by making choices about how I use that power. 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.559 And if I'm denying that power, I'll never make choices about how to use it. 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:44.960 That's so well said. 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:48.159 I think there's some taboo things. 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.399 And just to add on to what Tyler's saying here, a couple stories. 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:54.480 I remember sitting down with a client. 00:13:54.799 --> 00:14:06.000 She was very rigid, very religious, and she looked at me almost almost in anger and was like, You're telling me that Jesus would walk down the street and check out women? 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:09.600 And it was like a pretty intense question, right? 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:14.000 I kind of in my therapist way threw it back at her and said, Why don't you explore that? 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:15.200 Why don't you think about that? 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:16.240 Why don't you? 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:24.639 She went and talked to her church leader, she did all this, and she came back angrily and was like, Yeah, he probably did. 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.759 But she was she was pissed, right? 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.360 And I'm thinking, like, well, we're talking about Jesus here. 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:39.120 And I remember talking to another client, a betrayed partner, and we were having this conversation gets me in trouble all the time, Drew. 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:45.919 When I say, All of us are

attracted to uh multiple people, not just our spouse. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.240 Attraction happens, that's how attraction works. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.039 And so she was like, How dare you say that? 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.000 Like, he's married to me, he should be faithful to me. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:06.799 And I was trying to explain to her, look, his faithfulness to you isn't dependent upon him shutting down attraction because he can't. 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:17.840 Coming back to what Tyler was saying, if you want safety and trust, then we need to operate in reality and we we need to operate from a place of honesty. 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:27.919 And it's funny what she said to me in that moment because she was really mad about what we were talking about, and she like paused and she's like, Well, it's true. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:36.000 Like, when I walk past the magazines in the grocery store, like I'll notice Chris Hemsworth, like when he's in his Thor outfit or whatever. 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:47.519 Um and it made me laugh because it's like it like hit her like, wait, like I do have attraction outside of my marriage, but I don't want him to have attraction outside of our marriage. 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.440 And there's a good reason for that. 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:55.200 He has hurt her with betrayal, proven that he won't use it properly, right? 00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:05.679 But what we can't do is pretend then that it's not there because that will never heal the relationship, that will never lead back to trust. 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:13.120 We gotta be honest that it that it is there and own it, and then harness it and navigate it from there. 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:14.159 Right. 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:22.720 And my next question about Jesus having a penis is how did he harness it? 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:29.120 Like in what way was he sinlessly sexual as a single man? 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:35.759 It's interesting because the Bible really doesn't have a ton in it about Jesus's sexuality. 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:51.519 But you'll notice, and you were bringing this up the other day, Drew, Jesus is very sex positive when people have struggles or there's lust, or he approaches that with compassion, with acceptance. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:03.360 And I think, like anything, if you were writing a book, you're probably not gonna put all of your sexual stuff and things in like little tiny parts of your sexuality in there. 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.799 It doesn't mean that Jesus didn't have that, right? 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:16.240 And so I actually think he harnessed it so well that and accepted it so much that it wasn't an issue. 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:25.599 Now, that doesn't mean that he shut it down and pretended like it wasn't there, right? 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:36.880 I can't answer that because I don't know the specifics of it, and I don't think we need to, and yet, because he's Jesus, I'm sure that he loved his sexuality. 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:41.920 He it was full self-compassion and self-acceptance in the perfect way, right? 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:57.599 And I think about sexuality as our God-given engine for intimacy, and Jesus had that engine, and he was intimate in a healthy way with a lot of people. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:19.599 It doesn't mean he was sexually intimate with them, but just thinking about the community of men around him, the many female disciples who were part of his group as well, like we see him having these intimate moments where a woman's washing his feet with her hair, for example, he's touching people when he heals them. 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:24.400 Like there's a lot of tenderness and connection there. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:25.359 Yeah. 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:27.039 I agree with you. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:48.960 And if we go into Christian theology for a second, every every different denomination looks at these things a little bit differently, but generally at the core, when you look at what you might call the atonement of Jesus, we believe that the atonement of Jesus is such that in the Garden of Gethsemane, he went and he experienced everything that would be part of the human condition. 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:58.799 And he had to experience that in order to have full capacity for empathy and love and completion of what that atonement might be. 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:03.119 And then the second part, of course, was when he was killed on the cross, right? 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:10.000 And so it would make sense that if if he's going around and, you know, in the Bible he chooses to get baptized when he's sinless. 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.359 Why did he do that? 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:18.880 He chose to do that because that's what you did as a part of the covenants that you made with God on the path that you're on, right? 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:23.839 And so it would make sense that he'd also have to experience all the other things that go along with being human. 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:28.640 And even though it doesn't talk about him misusing it or using it properly, it had to be there. 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:34.799 And one of my favorite parts of this sentence, Jesus has a penis, is that it's not past tense. 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.599 It didn't say Jesus had a penis. 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.119 He has a penis in his resurrected body. 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:42.960 Yes, his perfect body. 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:47.440 I mean, I just scratch my head about this sometimes. 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.359 Like, what is that part of his body going to be doing for eternity? 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:55.200 And what are our own genitals and our own body parts? 00:19:55.519 --> 00:20:03.599 Well, Drew, not to get hit by lightning here, but when Jesus wakes up in the morning, I mean, what's going on? 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.119 That let's be honest. 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:07.839 Like, that's a lot of speculation, man. 00:20:08.799 -->

00:20:13.039 I don't want to go too far with this because people get uncomfortable, right? 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:18.160 But he wakes up in the morning and he's like all of all of us, right? 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:25.039 Like, I mean, he's God, he's different than all of us, but there's nothing wrong if he wakes up with an erection, right? 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:29.359 And that's true for for you, it's true for me. 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:34.400 It's not a sin to have this part of us that is sexual. 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:43.680 And this part of us has often been the target of evil. 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:46.640 Precisely because it's so good. 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.359 Precisely because it's beautiful. 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.559 Nothing can be broken unless it's fundamentally good. 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:58.160 And that's so true for our sexuality. 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:07.680 To go along with that, I I've I look at so many of the people that we work with who many of our clients I would say are very highly religious. 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:23.119 And if you look at it, like Brandon said, it's kind of the perfect storm because, on one hand, many of us were raised in cultures that preach like shut it down, keep it closed off, it can be dangerous, don't do anything with it. 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.359 It becomes taboo, we don't talk about it. 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:31.680 And then you have the porn industry over here that's the other counterfeit on the way other end of the spectrum. 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:35.519 That's like, hey, I'll we'll educate you, we'll teach you, it's all for free. 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:37.599 Like anything goes, like, go for it. 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:43.759 Like, come here and we'll give it to you for free from the time you're 13 until you're 34, and then you'll be paying for it for the rest of your life. 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:45.839 But we're just going to give it to you. 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:57.839 And somewhere in the middle is actually where we need to be able to land to say, wait a second, like we do need to actually land in a spot where we can talk about the power of it, we can teach about what it actually produces. 00:21:57.920 --> 00:21:59.680 I love what you said about how some. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:09.359 It's very possible that some of the very energies of that sexuality might have been part of what Christ was using in his healing with people who were wounded. 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:13.920 That connection piece, that closeness piece, that intimacy piece. 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:15.359 Safe touch. 00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:16.960 Yeah, that safe touch. 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:17.920 Safe touch. 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.799 Man, that whole that could be a whole podcast in and of itself. 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:26.559 Brandon and I went to a training for something called the Marma method earlier this year. 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:31.039 And the whole premise of that training was understanding safe touch. 00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:38.720 And you should have seen the energy that was popping off with all these people that were there going, like, are we allowed to like do this? 00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:41.039 And is like, I don't want it to be sexual. 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:43.359 It's like this isn't sexual all the way. 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.839 But safe touch falls in the category for so many people. 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:55.200 And man, there's so much healing that can take place when it's safe, when there's there's safe touch there. 00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:01.680 And part of that safety is an acceptance that that we know what it is and we know how to use it. 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:03.279 Absolutely. 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:11.039 If you want to go further with this, and maybe this gets almost a little radical, but to Freud, everything is sexual. 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:20.400 To David Dita, he would say when you have that sexual energy come through you, you can harness it and you absolutely can use it for good. 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:42.000 So it's weird to say it of like, let's say I get triggered sexually and I notice it and I acknowledge it, and then I harness that into creating some really good content today, or I harness that into like going home and just connecting with my wife and being present at my house. 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:44.319 Now, I know that doesn't make sense. 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.039 Like you're talking about a sexual arousal, whatever. 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:48.400 How are you doing that? 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.400 That's actually counter to connecting to your wife. 00:23:52.720 --> 00:24:06.160 And in reality, it's not if I'm able to like take that energy in and then use that sexual energy in a positive, creative way. 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:29.039 Like I would even say with Jesus, some of his healing methods, and like you were saying, Drew, maybe they started with sexual energy, but he harnessed it so well it wasn't inappropriate, there was consent, it wasn't lustful, all of those things, but maybe that energy started as sexual, first and foremost, with some of his things that he did. 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:42.480 I know that seems really weird and uncomfortable for some people to think about it that way, but the same thing is true for us today, where we can take that and we can do that as well. 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.880 I really think you're onto something. 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:55.839 In a way, everything is sexual in the sense that everything that happens in my life to me, I experience it through my male body. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:03.279 And that would be different if I was experiencing it through a female body. 00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:12.960 And so there is kind of a sexual component to everything in a way, it just depends on how we define that, right? 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:23.200 It depends on does sexuality refer to just living in a sexed body, or does it refer specifically to genitals or some kind of like

erotic charge? 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:30.000 And so we need to wrestle with the fact that Jesus is fully God and fully human. 00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:39.519 Sexual thoughts and feelings are an essential part of what it means to be human and in our everyday experience. 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:45.359 Of course, that played a role in his ministry. 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.640 How could it not? 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:48.559 Had to. 00:25:48.880 --> 00:26:02.640 And if it did, if we come to terms with that, then then what does that mean about you as a Christian, as a human, as a person who's been developing as a sexual being? 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:04.640 What does that then mean about you? 00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:10.400 If we actually, instead of rejecting Jesus' sexuality, we accept it. 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:12.400 How does that translate now to you? 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:14.559 I think that's that's an important question. 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:16.079 Let's explore that. 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:42.000 If by default we're already sexual beings and it's of God to be sexual, and then let's say someone defines the law of chastity as save that energy for inside of your marriage, right? 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:46.640 That's usually taught by like, shut it down, don't touch it, don't do anything with it. 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:47.759 It can be really dangerous. 00:26:47.839 --> 00:27:11.519 And only inside your marriage should you ever like versus channel that energy, like move that energy into places where you can deeply connect, where you can actually then attune to your partner because you care about them more, and because your energy is moving that direction, because you've harnessed it that way, does it become a rigid commandment that is that makes your life more miserable? 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:18.960 It becomes an opportunity to actually have more joy, more power, more connection when you see it that way. 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:23.759 And that's why accepting this allows us to turn in and look inward, right? 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.279 And go, wow, yeah, like why wouldn't I want to live the law of chastity? 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.279 Like that's gonna be awesome. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.039 You think about the little subtleties that happen. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:41.200 Like I have an 11-year-old son, and my boys are late bloomers, so he's like puberty's a ways away for him. 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:50.160 But 11's an interesting time because it's like you know, he'll be playing with his genitals or you know, certain little things happen, right? 00:27:50.240 --> 00:28:00.880 And as a dad, how I respond, if I'm in that purity culture, sex is sin, then I'll quickly start shutting him down automatically. 00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:08.799 Hey, like, don't do that, knock that off versus get curious with him and approach it from a place of positivity. 00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:10.400 Oh, what's that like? 00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:11.200 How do you feel? 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.319 What would be a better place to do something like that? 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:27.440 Or think about like when you I was watching a show with him the the other night, and it wasn't like a rated R show, but there was a scene in there, and the first thing my wife wants to say is, hey, that's the bad part. 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.160 And so immediately, what how does he interpret that? 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:42.960 Like if he had some feelings during that part and we're saying that's the bad part, automatically we're starting to install this system of shame inside of him around his sexuality. 00:28:43.759 --> 00:29:03.519 But if we believe that Jesus had a penis, we believe that sexuality is good, and we start from that premise, then we don't automatically apply rejection to sexuality, we apply acceptance to sexuality, and then you develop as a sexual being without the shame running the show. 00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:13.519 Brandon, in that scenario, though, you would still take the opportunity to have a conversation with your son to do some understanding and some teaching, right? 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:15.599 You're teaching the harnessing of it. 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:20.319 I really like that word, the holding it and and then deciding what to do with it. 00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:24.480 So it's it's not just like, oh yeah, I'm not gonna call that scene bad. 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:29.440 In fact, let's let's watch one that's more explicit, and then that's that's really not bad. 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:30.400 And what are you feeling? 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:36.559 And what no, we because now I'm not I'm not modeling that that harnessing of it, right? 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:41.440 Versus let's start with the acceptance, let's notice what you're feeling, let's get curious. 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:43.279 What do you do with that? 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:49.839 And there's no like negative purity rigidity around it, right? 00:29:49.920 --> 00:30:04.880 It's almost like teaching emotions when you see anger show up on a TV show, or when you see loneliness show up on a TV show, we don't say, Oh, that's the bad part. 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:05.599 Yeah. 00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:08.960 How do we respond when we have those emotions? 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:10.000 What do we do with it? 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:12.400 Where can I take that emotion? 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:16.319 I think you're saying the same thing just with our sexual thoughts and feelings. 00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:17.680 Yeah, exactly. 00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:25.680 And this reminds me of a verse in the Bible that seems relevant. 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:33.759 In Hebrews chapter 4, it says Jesus was tempted in every way, yet without sin. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.720 That's a very interesting statement that he was tempted in every way. 00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:50.720 And it makes me curious about what kinds of thoughts and feelings he must have had, and some of the urges and

cravings he must have experienced. 00:30:51.359 --> 00:31:06.240 I know that everyone's personal wrestle with God is is different and unique, but but it actually, my own personal journey with my relationship with Jesus actually goes really deep into that very principle. 00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:15.359 Being a person who's done the things that I've done in order to lay claim on an atonement of Jesus, I have to believe that he understands me. 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.960 I have to believe that he's been there with me. 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:23.119 And that's what I believe we've been taught is who Jesus is. 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:32.559 And so it would make sense that you know, if if I've experienced certain kinds of temptations, Jesus understands us intimately. 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:33.359 Yeah. 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:37.839 It's truly part of the gospel, his incarnation. 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:43.759 He knows exactly what it's like. 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:49.440 One of the early church fathers said what he has not assumed, he has not healed. 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:58.240 So the good news is he has assumed sexuality, and therefore he can heal it. 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:04.880 I just think this is such a great conversation that needs to be had. 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:13.759 I want to say, like, there's a reason why the three of us are here today, like on this earth, and the reason is is because people had sex. 00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:26.160 Like, I don't know how it happened where you know, me and my wife had sex and we made our kids, like, what? 00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:31.519 Like, what a like what's a bigger miracle than that? 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:43.440 Like, to to have my children come from sexuality, like, what is more miraculous and more about creation than that? 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:50.000 And you said something earlier about the adversary like attacking this extremely hard or whatever. 00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:51.759 I can't remember how you said it. 00:32:52.160 --> 00:33:00.880 There's a reason why it is so complicated and confusing and all of those things, because, and this is just the gospel according to Brandon. 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:08.480 This is my opinion, is sex isn't just like, yeah, like we're neutral about it, and we're not gonna have shame about it. 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:22.079 It's for for me, I look at it as like sex is like such a miracle and such a good thing that Satan has put shame all around it and confusion and all this stuff. 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:35.759 Because when it's done right with what I believe a committed partner, and there's trust and intimacy and love and creation happening, where do you get closer to God than in those experiences? 00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:40.240 So sex isn't just like something we overcome. 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:45.519 It's not just something that we we have to learn that we have to deal with and manage. 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.119 Sex is of God, and it's really beautiful, and it's a way that we can connect to God. 00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:56.000 And to be specific, your penis is of God. 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:57.920 Yes, it is. 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:10.400 It's interesting being on your podcast, Drew, because we've been on a lot of different podcasts, and I don't think we've ever had a host be quite so as forthright as you are about this same topic. 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:19.199 So I know that having this discussion will probably it's probably bringing up a lot of emotions in all sorts of different ways for people. 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:34.639 And I would just maybe speak to your listeners for a second and say if you're feeling some of those emotions, if you could take a couple deep breaths and sit with it and actually see what it might teach you, there might be some value in this, even if you don't fully agree with what is being said today. 00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:36.639 Thank you so much for that. 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.400 Yeah, we need to think about our own stories. 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:50.880 And as Brandon did with that one client, to ask, what do I think about this as an individual? 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:59.519 And I encourage everyone here to seek advice, get wisdom, and come to your own conclusions. 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:13.119 In any case, one way of phrasing what we're talking about here today in terms of sexual development is that we want to have two things be very, very clear. 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:18.639 One is blessing our sexuality, and the other is having boundaries on our sexuality. 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:19.440 Both. 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:20.800 And we can have both. 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:23.199 We don't have to choose between one or the other. 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:25.280 I think that's the hardest thing. 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:27.199 I was just going to word it differently. 00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:31.679 You don't have to use self-rejection and shame to control your sexuality. 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:39.440 In fact, the self-rejection and shame are the opposite of helpful to control your sexuality. 00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:40.639 Amen. 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:43.679 We've been doing this work for a really long time. 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:49.360 Brown and I have been down a path where we've done things a lot differently than we currently do them. 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.199 We hope that we're getting better as we go. 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:52.960 We'd, you know, you never know. 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.119 There's always going to be something better to learn. 00:35:55.360 --> 00:36:18.000 But I can tell you this: that out of the hundreds and hundreds of people that we work with and that we've worked with over the years, the ones that end up doing the best long term get a hold of the principle we're talking about today, where they start to realize that they can accept themselves, they can love themselves, they can allow the love of God deeper into their own souls as a result. 00:36:18.079 -->

00:36:26.400 And that love of God does the transforming as they start to make their own personal decisions about how they're going to use that energy. 00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:35.679 I've got guys in my group right now that have been coming for three years, and they come because their partner says they're going to leave them if they don't keep coming. 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:42.000 But they come every single week or every two weeks and be like, guys, I had a relapse and I suck so bad and I'm terrible. 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:53.360 And it's like, meanwhile, there's three other guys in the group that are starting to show up and be like, guys, like I've started to realize that porn doesn't serve me well for what I way I want to use this anymore. 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:54.639 I want to do other things with it. 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:57.599 And I want to have different ways of putting my energy into other stuff. 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:13.840 And they start looking at a life that includes that energy moving forward, and somehow they go long term, you know, five, ten years, and they don't even think about relapse because relapse is stopping as a result of the life they're living and the creation that they're doing. 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:20.400 And that's just seems to play out over and over again with the population of people that we work with. 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:24.320 Can I share a quick story, Drew, just to kind of drive this home? 00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:25.039 Totally. 00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:34.000 When I started with telling my story, like I I would go into churches and I would teach the porn topic and hellfire and brimstone, right? 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:39.360 Well, over the years I shifted a lot, and my philosophy shifted obviously. 00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:51.599 And I went into a church and it was a large congregation, and I was just talking to the men, and there was, I think, about 300 men, and they were all single men, they were college students. 00:37:52.079 --> 00:38:05.440 And I started my my lesson with the question by raise of hand, how many of you men have had a sexual thought about one of the sisters in in your congregation? 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.440 It's like eyes on the floor. 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:10.079 Yeah. 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:17.199 So by raise a hand, like how many, and these are single college-aged men, like in search of a partner and wanting, right? 00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:22.719 And the bishop looked at me like that whoa, this isn't the lesson that I was expecting, you know. 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:31.840 And it was so fascinating because of course there's that brave soul that is like starts raising his hand, and then the guy next to him does it. 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.360 So the second guy is always the guy that gives permission to everyone else, right? 00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:41.840 So the the second guy raises his hand slowly, and then next thing you know, the whole 300 dudes have their hands up. 00:38:42.000 -->

00:38:49.920 And there was almost it was almost palpable, like this collective sigh of relief between all of them. 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.639 Just like, yeah, I'm not the only one. 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.039 And that was the whole point, right? 00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:00.800 Is you're all men, you're all men of God, and you all have sexuality in you. 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:13.280 Now, I didn't go on to say, so now let's take that sexual thought that you had and let's figure out how to lust after those women and objectify them and because it's absolutely okay. 00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:18.880 No, but to normalize that sexuality. 00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:27.280 And but why do those men have to sit there and feel any bit of shame about having that sexuality inside of them? 00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:30.320 Any bit of need for secrecy, right? 00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:36.480 We need to free our Christian culture of sexual self-rejection and shame. 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:41.840 The epidemic we're talking about is that more than anything, right? 00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:44.559 Yeah, that's so true. 00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:49.280 And that's what gives porn and unwanted behavior so much of its power. 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:57.840 Being afraid of male sexuality, being ashamed of male sexuality is adding to the problem. 00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:12.719 Whereas allowing it to exist, accepting it, and then harnessing it, as you're saying, is the key to so much more connection, creativity, and a life that makes porn seem irrelevant. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:14.719 So great. 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:18.880 Tyler and Brandon, what is your favorite thing about freedom from porn? 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.559 I tell my clients this all the time, and I I believe it. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.360 I this has been my own personal experience. 00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:33.840 I look at recovery as a continual unfolding of a pathway to radical self-acceptance. 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:43.679 And when you're on that pathway to radical self-acceptance, more than just sobriety, you can go to bed at night on a clear conscience. 00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:48.159 And there is no better feeling in the world than going to bed at night on a clear conscience. 00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:53.920 And that's one of my favorite things about being porn free is that I can go to bed on a clear conscience. 00:40:54.079 --> 00:41:00.719 Not perfect, but being a work in progress and knowing that it's okay to be a work in progress. 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:03.360 I just echo what Tyler's saying. 00:41:03.519 --> 00:41:05.599 I'm leaving to Costa Rica tonight. 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:10.400 We're taking 14 men down there to do some trauma healing work. 00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:17.599 And it's interesting that I'm going down with these men to do trauma, like deep wounds, trauma healing work. 00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:23.840 These men are pretty far along in the recovery process, and sobriety is just happening. 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:31.519 And now they get to do the deeper work of really understanding their identity and understanding who they are to God. 00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:35.199 And so to me, like that's my favorite. 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:44.400 I get to experience that and see them step out of their shame and into the light and know what their purpose is, know who they are to God. 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:45.840 That's real recovery. 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:47.360 That's my favorite. 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:49.199 Awesome. 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:54.960 Radical self-acceptance, trauma healing, embracing our true identity. 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.800 That's what this is really about. 00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:04.639 If you guys would like to connect with Tyler and Brandon, hear more from them, go to therapybrothers.org or you can go to risingsun.org. 00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:06.400 We've got all the links in the show notes. 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:12.320 And guys, always remember you are God's beloved son, and you, he is well pleased.