Full Transcript for How to Improve Your Memory & Cognitive Function at Any Age | Dr. Alan Castel

know something and yet 68 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:35.120 not know it as well as I do? And this 69 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:39.080 is something that's called metacognition, our awareness of our own cognition. 70 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.240 And as a personal anecdote, when you know, as in 71 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:44.439 fifth or sixth grade, I had one line in the 72 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.319 play The Wizard of Oz. It's a line I practiced 73 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:49.879 again and again. Listen everyone, there's a cyclone on the way, 74 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:52.639 Hurry and get into the cellar. And of course on 75 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.000 opening night, listen everyone, there's a seller on the way. 76 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:58.800 Hurry and get into the cyclone. Nice And I'm thinking, 77 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:02.479 how did I manage that having memorized this line. Most 78 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.240 of the audience probably didn't even notice. But that to 79 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:08.599 me was an early exposure to memories, not always kind 80 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:10.759 of a function of what you do with the information. 81 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:13.639 And then, you know, in high school I had another 82 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.600 exposure to memory where I just memorized a lot of things, 83 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.519 and that got me pretty far in algebra and chemistry. 84 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.759 In fact, I almost memorized the entire periodic table. But 85 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.759 this was using mnemonics, you know, little rhymes or songs. 86 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.199 And I realized in my first year of college that 87 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.199 I really didn't have a strong understanding of chemistry, even 88 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.240 though I could use all these terms. And thankfully I 89 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:39.600 took an introductory psychology class, and I realized people studied 90 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:43.000 learning and memory and kind of false memories and why 91 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:45.720 memory can and cannot be accurate. And I was hooked. 92 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.680 I found that so fascinating, and I still do today. 93 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:54.040 I'm both impressed and intrigued. Us more about memorization of 94 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:59.519 the periodic table. First question is about mnemonics and ways 95 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:03.600 that we try and batch and learn information by pairing 96 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:05.959 it to other things. Trying to remember a room full 97 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.120 of people's names and you know, you could compare the 98 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:10.959 first letter of their name with a fruit or what. 99 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:13.600 You know, people do these things. To me, that seems 100 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:17.720 like a very inefficient way to learn, because you're adding 101 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:20.560 more information that you need to store away. So the 102 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.879 first question is is that the best way to learn 103 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.439 large batches of information? 104 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:27.920 I think it's almost a workaround. And that's the first 105 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:31.160 kind of problem people say is I can't remember names. 106 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:33.879 And by their nature, names used to be descriptive of 107 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:37.720 person's occupation. Someone's a baker, we call them mister baker. 108 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.600 But that's of course evolved with time and names. You know, 109 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:44.920 I tell people, if you can't remember someone's name, that's 110 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.399 probably a natural forgetting. But you remember if you had 111 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.279 an interesting conversation, or you remember if you can trust them, 112 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:55.519 that's probably more important. So then to engage our kind 113 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:57.759 of knowledge base so that we can remember names, we 114 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.759 need to make this arbitrary link. And so I tell 115 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:03.959 people my last name is Pastel Castell. You know, Castell 116 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:07.160 rhymes with pastel, and my grandfather used Pastel's let's say. 117 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:09.319 And so people can then make this link. But like 118 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:12.000 you say, that's effortful. It takes time. It takes time 119 00:06:12.040 --> 00:06:14.759 away from kind of the essence of something else we 120 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.319 could talk about, and it also leads to these kind 121 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.240 of predictable memory errors. So people say, oh, I remember 122 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:23.439 his name was Pastel, or in fact it's Castell. So 123 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:26.519 I think we have to almost trick our memory into 124 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:29.920 remembering things that might be somewhat arbitrary, and that becomes 125 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:32.920 more pronounced as we get older. You know, there's more David's, 126 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:37.040 there's more Andrews, and it's just more interference. And so 127 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.680 to get around that, we have to, you know, use 128 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:44.680 deliberate practice, retrieval practice, use the name several times. But 129 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.959 I tell my students whose names I often forget that 130 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.759 I'll still remember topics we've talked about, or you know, 131 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:53.519 you know, how they felt about something, And I think 132 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:55.680 that's more important sometimes just remembering a. 133 00:06:55.720 --> 00:07:01.639 Name, to remember chemistry or some other subject that involves nomenclature, 134 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:06.199 I mean, not everyday terms unless you're a

chemist, but 135 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:10.120 to really understand the deeper mechanics of that thing and 136 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:15.160 remember that. What are some better tools? I want to say, 137 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:17.360 and I'm not a memory researcher, that it might be 138 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.519 helpful to think in terms of verbs, not labels, So 139 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.160 rather than thinking about a particular element just in terms 140 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.600 of its name, but think about how it interacts with 141 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.839 something else, or how it gives or receives a charge 142 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:32.480 in certain conditions. 143 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.199 Absolutely, I think that's what you're looking for is deeper learning, 144 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:37.759 deeper semantic learning. And this has been referred to as 145 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:40.519 levels of processing. So I was working at a very 146 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.759 low level of processing when I'm making up happy henry 147 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.800 for hydrogen and helium. But if you can start to 148 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:50.319 visualize things or interact with them, and that's why we 149 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.399 want to have chemistry labs or places where I found 150 00:07:53.480 --> 00:07:56.600 chemistry very abstract. I think that's why I didn't really 151 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:59.199 engage with it. But I found psychology to be something 152 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.560 that we were interact with every day I was making 153 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:04.720 these memory airrors. I saw my parents and grandparents remembering 154 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:07.680 and forgetting things, and I thought, you know, how does 155 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.480 that happen? And the brain is so complex that I 156 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.279 don't think we'll ever completely understand, you know, why this 157 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:17.680 memory era might happen. But I think this awareness is 158 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:20.360 really important. And a lot of good learning happens through 159 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:21.199 making mistakes. 160 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:22.560 You know. 161 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:25.319 I you know, I play piano and I, you know, struggle, 162 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:26.959 but I know when I make a mistake, I'm going 163 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.399 to have to work on this. And I see that 164 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:32.000 with my children, you learn a lot by making these mistakes. 165 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:35.039 And I think that illustrates also how our memory works, 166 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.960 that just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember 167 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:40.919 it well. And this is a classic demonstration that you 168 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.480 know you've seen a penny many times, you don't remember 169 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.519 all the features on the penny. I've updated that to 170 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:49.120 the Apple logo. You know you've seen the Apple logo 171 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:51.360 so many times. Of course you know all the features. 172 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:53.840 But then when you quiz people and test them, and 173 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:56.960 I do this in my class, people aren't sure it's 174 00:08:57.000 --> 00:08:58.960 the bite on the left or the right hand side? 175 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:02.080 Is there a stem or a? But if you make 176 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:04.759 people draw it while they're looking at it, they're going 177 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:05.559 to remember. 178 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:07.799 It better while they're looking at the actual. 179 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.240 While they're looking at it, or if they actually the 180 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.039 best way to remember something is to again failures. I'll 181 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:15.919 have you draw it without looking at it, and you 182 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:17.679 struggle and wait, is it on the left or right? 183 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:19.840 And says a stem relief, and you're starting to question 184 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:21.600 all of these things. Then when you look at the 185 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:24.559 logo again, you're going to engage in better learning than 186 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.399 if you hadn't done that error full kind of trial beforehand. 187 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.159 Even if you don't redraw it correctly exactly. 188 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:31.840 Yeah. 189 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.440 So this sort of thing is you know, in an 190 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:36.799 academic setting, we don't want failure. 191 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:37.960 We want people to do well. 192 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:41.080 But I think this sort of retrieval failure with some 193 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:44.879 you know, corrective feedback is really beneficial, and that's kind 194 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:46.799 of how you learn through life. You know, you make 195 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.600 mistakes and then you correct them. But if you're constantly 196 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:51.879 just doing it the right way, you're not really noticing 197 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:55.240 these features. And we've tried to extend this to other domains, 198 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:58.039 Like you know, it's called habituation. You stop noticing things 199 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.240 around you, Like we're in the nearest fire extinguishers, let's say, 200 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.080 and I guarantee hopefully there's one somewhere nearby, and you've 201 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.879 probably walked by it many times, but you stop noticing it. 202 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:11.440 And it's only until you'll need it you'll realize, wait, 203 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:13.720 where is it? And so we've done this study where 204 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.519 you have to instead of me telling you where it is, 205 00:10:16.679

--> 00:10:18.799 you have to get up and find it. And so 206 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:21.200 now you're engaging with the environment. You're going to go 207 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.000 look for it and be like, gosh, it's been there 208 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.120 the whole time. I've walked by it so many times, 209 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:28.600 I've never noticed it. And I think that's the difference 210 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:30.919 between seeing something and noticing it. 211 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:32.240 So someone who. 212 00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.120 Studies vision, we know a lot of information reaches the retina, 213 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.039 But then how much of it reaches out a kind 214 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.080 of more conscious level and not all of it does. 215 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:42.480 And I think that's what makes psychology interesting. 216 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.960 In today's financial landscape of constant market shifts and chaotic news, 217 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:49.399 it's easy to feel uncertain about how to save and 218 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:52.279 invest your money. Wealfront is the solution that helps you 219 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:55.399 take control of your money while managing risk. For nearly 220 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.720 a decade, I've trusted Wealfront to navigate this volatility. With 221 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.279 the well Front cash account, I can earn three point 222 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:04.840 three percent annual percentage yield or APY on my cash 223 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:07.320 from program banks, and I know my money is growing 224 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:10.159 until I'm ready to spend it or invest it. One 225 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:12.519 of the features I love about Wealthfront is that I 226 00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:16.120 have access to instant, no fee withdrawals to eligible accounts 227 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.679 twenty four to seven. That means I can move my 228 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:21.120 money where I need it without waiting, and when I'm 229 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.440 ready to transition from saving to investing, welfront lets me 230 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.000 seamlessly transfer my funds into one of their expert built portfolios. 231 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.919 For a limited time, wealfront is offering the Huberman Lab 232 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:34.559 audience an exclusive point seventy five percent APY boost over 233 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.000 the base rate for three months, meaning you can get 234 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:40.200 up to four point zero five percent variable APY on 235 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:42.879 up to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in deposits. 236 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.000 Over one million people already trust wealfront to save more, 237 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:49.279 earn more, and build long term wealth with confidence. If 238 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.960 you'd like to try Wealfront, you can go to wealthfront 239 00:11:52.039

--> 00:11:55.159 dot com slash huberman to receive the boost offer and 240 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.639 start earning four point zero five percent variable APY today. 241 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:02.840 That's wealthfront dot com slash huberman to get started. This 242 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:06.279 is a paid testimonial of wealth Front. Client experiences will 243 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.360 vary well. Front Brokerage is not a bank. The base 244 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:12.679 APY is as of January thirtieth, twenty twenty six and 245 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:16.679 subject to change. For more information, please see the episode description. 246 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.159 Today's episode is also brought to us by Helix Sleep. 247 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.720 Helix Sleep makes mattresses and pillows that are customized to 248 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:27.399 your unique sleep needs. Now, I've spoken many times before 249 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:30.000 on this and on other podcasts about the fact that 250 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.879 getting a great night's sleep is the foundation of mental health, 251 00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:35.840 physical health, and performance. When we aren't getting great sleep 252 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:38.919 on a consistent basis, everything suffers, and when we are 253 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:41.759 sleeping well and enough, our mental health, physical health, and 254 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:45.720 performance in all endeavors improve markedly now. The mattress you 255 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.440 sleep on makes a huge difference in the quality of 256 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:50.960 sleep that you get each night. How soft it is 257 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.279 or how firm it is all play into your comfort 258 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:56.039 and need to be tailored to your unique sleep needs. 259 00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:58.399 If you go to the Helix website, you can take 260 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.399 a brief two minute quiz and it will ask you 261 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.799 questions such as do you sleep on your back, your side, 262 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:04.840 or your stomach? Maybe you know, maybe you don't. Do 263 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:06.679 you tend to run hot or cold during the night, 264 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.600 things of that sort. You answer those questions and Helix 265 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:12.279 will match you to the ideal mattress for you. For me, 266 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:15.759 that turned out to be the Dusk Dusk Mattress. I've 267 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:18.159 been sleeping on a Dusk mattress for more than four 268 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.799 years now and it's been far and away the best 269 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:23.919 sleep that I've ever had. If you'd like to try Helix, 270 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.840 you can go to Helix sleep dot com slash Huberman, 271 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.639 take that two minute sleep quiz, and Helix will match 272 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:32.759 you to a mattress that's customized for you. Right now, 273 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:35.399 Helix is giving up to twenty seven percent off their 274 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:38.519 entire site. Helix has also teamed up with true med, 275 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.960 which allows you to use your HSA FSA dollars to 276 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:46.120 shop Helix's award winning mattresses. Again, that's Helix, sleep dot 277 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.159 Com slash Huberman to get up to twenty seven percent off. Yeah. 278 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.639 The big revelation for me when learning about neuroplasticity, and 279 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:57.000 it was such an obvious one once I heard it, 280 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:00.600 was that if you can perform a mental or physical task, 281 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:04.080 there's no reason for your brain to change. You clearly 282 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:07.480 already have the circuit. So it's the gap between desired 283 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:12.600 performance and current performance that actually triggers the opportunity for plasticity. 284 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.559 Yeah, and those going to be uncomfortable positions right where 285 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:17.559 it's like I don't know this, am I? Am I 286 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:19.080 going to be able to learn it? And I think 287 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.360 that's this metacognitive aspect of when are. 288 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:22.960 You aware of that? 289 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.159 And a lot of learning now is unsupervised learning. You know, 290 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.799 it's not that you're going in classrooms and teachers are 291 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:30.200 telling you what to do. You want to learn a 292 00:14:30.200 --> 00:14:33.039 new instrument, you might do a lot of it on YouTube, right, 293 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:35.039 you're going to try and figure it out. You want 294 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:36.720 to learn a new language, you want to learn how 295 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.080 to communicate with people, There's going to be a lot 296 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.080 of trial and error, and I think kind of the 297 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:44.840 best learners are the ones who persist, who are curious, 298 00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:46.600 because that's how you're going to get a lot of 299 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:50.679 feedback asking not just lots of questions, but the right questions. 300 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:54.840 Yeah, and I think the frustration and agitation, I do 301 00:14:55.320 --> 00:15:00.600 believe that's the you know, the release of cin means 302 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:03.399 you know, epinephrine or a penephyrine, and those change the 303 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:07.480 milieu around synapses and let them change, you know, all 304 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.639 the things that you want to avoid, right, the things 305 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:11.759 that actually allow us to learn. It could be that 306 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:13.879 people that are

very good at learning and have this 307 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.000 willingness to embrace so called beginner's mind, like you know, 308 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.639 like Okay, they're excellent in one domain and they're perfectly 309 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:22.519 happy to be a raw beginner in a different domain. 310 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:26.120 I always wonder if they experience agitation the same way 311 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:29.799 that anyone else would, but that they don't have the 312 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:33.720 same relationship to it, like oh, here's that autonomic arousal again. 313 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:36.240 You know, here it is, And maybe they don't conceptualize 314 00:15:36.279 --> 00:15:39.679 as frustration, so in terms of getting better at learning 315 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.840 and remembering things. You or any other laboratories parsed kind 316 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:48.200 of people's framework around it, Like, I know there's a 317 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:51.480 vast literature around growth mindset, but I'm thinking more in 318 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:57.399 terms of how people think about their own levels of frustration, 319 00:15:57.559 --> 00:15:59.960 because if you go like here, I am frustrated again, Awesome, 320 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.279 let's go. Now's the opportunity versus like, I'm terrible at this. 321 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:06.600 I know I should push through. I just wonder whether 322 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:08.519 or not mindset can actually make a difference. 323 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:09.360 I think it can. 324 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:11.320 I think our goals can play a big role a 325 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.399 lot of the learning we do. Sometimes, you know, learning 326 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:15.480 to take a test, or learning you know something because 327 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.519 it'll be on a test. But as we get through life, 328 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:22.039 we realize you're interested in birdwatching or music or skateboarding. 329 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:23.240 You know, a lot of this is going to be 330 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.399 observational learning. It's going to be talking to other people. 331 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.159 So I think it comes down to curiosity, which is 332 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.080 almost closing this knowledge gap where here I am, but 333 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.240 I want to be here? How can I get from 334 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:36.159 here to hear? And some of it is there's a 335 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.639 strong motivation there, and that's something we've started to study 336 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:43.440 with older adults as well, because we know memory declines 337 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.919 happen with age, but not all things change equally, and 338 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.639 in fact, there are certain memory systems that might actually 339 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.600 remain stable or even improve. And I think some of 340 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:55.720 the keys here are curiosity, being interested in, you know, 341 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.120 listening to a podcast, talking to someone else, closing that 342 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:02.279 knowledge gap, and then kind of extending that and going further. 343 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.960 And I sometimes find there's topics that I'm not so 344 00:17:05.079 --> 00:17:08.000 interested in, but then there's some that I will almost 345 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.480 become obsessive about that. It's like I'm going to watch 346 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:12.640 that YouTube video and the next one and the next one, 347 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:15.640 and then it's forty five minutes later. And I think 348 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.440 that that can be, you know, kind of a waste 349 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.920 of time in some ways, but it shows that our 350 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:24.920 brain is craving this information and that's something that I'm 351 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:27.559 really curious about how that will change as we get older. 352 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:30.240 And some of our research suggests that as we get older, 353 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.079 we're more selective about what we focus on, and I 354 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.160 think that can be beneficial. So maybe you don't waste 355 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:37.720 as much time on trying to learn everything, but you're 356 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:39.759 more focused on the things you want to learn about. 357 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.599 Do we know that it's important to continue to seek 358 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.640 out new information as we get older in order to 359 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.839 maintain our memory. Or is it sufficient to just make 360 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.000 some effort to remember the past what we need to 361 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:57.160 do to get through our day? You know, I think 362 00:17:57.160 --> 00:17:59.680 this gets down to the question people think I really 363 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.799 should be striving to keep my memory. Everyone wants to 364 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.240 keep their memory. Sure, that makes sense, but how hardship 365 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:10.160 people push to learn new information as opposed to maintaining 366 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:10.759 what they've got. 367 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:12.559 Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's a little 368 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:14.279 bit of both, and you want to have that sort 369 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.400 of balance. So if you know, if you play piano, 370 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.319 My father in his eighties and nineties still plays piano. 371 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.000 I don't think he's learning new pieces, but he's strengthening 372 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.440 the pieces he knows, and that keeps him sharp. On 373 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.119 the other hand, being exposed to new things, if you're traveling, 374 00:18:29.240 -->

00:18:32.119 if you're talking to different people, that can be really 375 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:36.200 important for things like even neurogenesis. You want to develop 376 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.000 new brain cells, which we know doesn't just stop as 377 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:42.880 we reach a certain age. So it's probably a bit 378 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:44.759 of both. And people ask me, you know, what's the 379 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:47.480 best thing to keep my brain sharp? Is a crossword puzzles. 380 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:50.240 And that's interesting because I think as we get older, 381 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.440 our actual verbal knowledge is maintained, if not improved. So 382 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:56.880 in a way, you're strengthening a strength and I think 383 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.119 that can be beneficial. But probably the other things to 384 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:02.640 do or do new things, you know, go outside and 385 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:05.240 appreciate the birds, or talk to someone who has a 386 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:08.039 different perspective, or you go to a different restaurant, even 387 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:10.680 all of these things. I find as I get older, 388 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.200 I have a lot of routines, but it's when I 389 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.160 start to violate these routines, take a different way to work, 390 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.079 or you know, try something different at a restaurant, I 391 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.519 can almost feel like, wow, that was a different experience. 392 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.559 Today I did something else, and I think so. I 393 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:25.799 think both are really important. 394 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.640 We do get set in our ways. It's a yeah thing. 395 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:31.799 You know, habits can be healthy and we can talk 396 00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:34.359 more about that because those routines. You know, I drove 397 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:36.480 this way and I didn't get into a car accident. 398 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:39.720 Or I even noticed my students in my classes after 399 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:41.240 the first couple of weeks they all sit in the 400 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:44.599 same seats. I'm always like, why is that, And it's like, well, 401 00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:47.640 I didn't get attacked by a snake here, so it's safe. 402 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:52.160 Maybe evolutionarily it makes sense, but I'll sometimes halfway through 403 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:53.880 the quarter say okay, I want everyone to get up 404 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.640 and switch sides and sit somewhere else, and students are like, 405 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:59.440 this is terrible, Like I have to move. But there's 406 00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:03.519 some benefit to having a different perspective, both physically and 407 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.519 possibly mentally, that you're going to then remember things differently. 408 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:08.880 And I know, if I've taken a class in a 409 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.000 different class room every year, I can almost revisit each 410 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:14.119 of those rooms and try and recall what I learned. 411 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.839 But if you learn all in the same spot, there's 412 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:20.000 a lot of interference. So I think there can be 413 00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.400 benefits to changing our habits, but it can be uncomfortable, 414 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:24.480 especially at first. 415 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.119 I went to a lot of scientific meetings early in 416 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:30.920 my career, and I would change seats at after every break. 417 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:33.079 It was the only way I could stay awake through 418 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.960 all the talks. Some talks would naturally keep me awake 419 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:37.599 and some just wouldn't. I mean, they don't tell you this, 420 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:39.279 but there are a lot of great talks at meetings, 421 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.000 and they are often a lot of boring ones too, 422 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:44.640 and you feel obligated to stay. Later in my career, 423 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.759 I give myself permission to get up and take a walk. 424 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.680 But so I do think that one learns differently even 425 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.839 if you just change the novelty of seat position. 426 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:56.759 Yeah, And I think that's a great example of as 427 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.440 you've gotten older and more experience. 428 00:20:58.440 --> 00:20:59.880 First of all, you give yourself the leeway. 429 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.480 Hey, I can get up if this isn't working for me, 430 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:04.519 or I want to see something else. But I've also 431 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:06.720 learned I learn better if I sit over here and 432 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:08.720 then over here and then over here. And you know 433 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.599 that's Those are some principles of memory that I think 434 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.960 when you have this metacognitive insight, you can use it effectively. 435 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.480 And I've learned, and I've seen my children learn sometimes 436 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:22.000 through mistakes or sometimes this works better for me, and 437 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:24.119 I think that's fascinating that we can do that. 438 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.240 It is interesting that almost everybody has an experience of 439 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.079 saying like a gaff, like saying something stupid or getting 440 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.480 the wrong answer publicly, and the shame and the arousal 441 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.400 that comes with that means a We're never going to 442 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.079 forget the right answer, but we tend to remember the 443 00:21:43.160 -->

00:21:46.920 experience a bit of embarrassment more. Yeah, then it sort 444 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:50.440 of swamps the information somehow, and it just raises this 445 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:56.720 question for me. Is there a slight to severe emotional 446 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.759 tag on every memory we have? 447 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:01.759 I think, you know, part of our brain, like the 448 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.480 amygdala that's involved in processing emotions, is very active and 449 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:08.359 is maintained throughout age. It's other parts of the brains 450 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:10.480 tend to decline. So I think you're right that there 451 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.240 can be an emotional attachment to a lot of our memories. 452 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.839 Some of them are bittersweet, some of them are things 453 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.759 we go back to for comfort. Sometimes we even change 454 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:20.440 them a little bit so they fit the way we 455 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:22.480 might have thought they happened. 456 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.440 I think that happens, So that can be large. 457 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.559 Sure, and that's part of our emotional tuning, like what 458 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.920 makes us feel good. Some memories we don't want to revisit. 459 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.400 Some you know PTSD. There's a lot of research on 460 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:36.599 how we can try and help people. So I think 461 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.839 memory can be tuned that way, and a lot of 462 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.039 it can have an emotional valance. And those are usually 463 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:43.119 the memories that we cherish. They're the ones that we 464 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:47.279 might be afraid of. I still remember, I'm not sure 465 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:50.759 I remember it accurately this Wizard of Oz. And now 466 00:22:50.759 --> 00:22:52.960 when my daughter was in Wizard of Oz, I was like, oh, 467 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:55.119 this is such a great play. So I was thinking 468 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.200 positively about it, even though at that time of getting 469 00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:01.279 the line wrong, getting the line there, you know, it's 470 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:03.680 probably just distracted. You know, you do a lot of 471 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.599 these dress rehearsals. I'm not clearly, I'm not an actor, 472 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.599 but you do a lot of these rehearsing and you 473 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.880 don't see the audience. You don't appreciate what's going on, 474 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.599 especially when you're young, and all of a sudden, like, oh, 475 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.000 there's all these people watching me, and I know, I 476 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:18.839 know what I'm supposed to say, but I kind of 477 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:21.799 I'm not convinced most people even remembered it. I'm not 478 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.680 even sure my parents were there, you know. So I 479 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.880 think we then think of it as a very strong 480 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.279 emotional memory. But it guides us and to me that 481 00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:32.400 that's a lasting memory in a sense, because it kind 482 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.440 of forced me to think, how does memory really work? 483 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:36.799 I thought I knew how it worked, and I see 484 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.160 a lot of people, you know, studying in ways that 485 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:40.640 aren't always as effective. 486 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.680 You know, we know some of the. 487 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:46.440 Work this is colleagues at UCLA have studied desirable difficulties. 488 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.480 How can you make learning kind of uncomfortable but that 489 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.480 you'll remember things better? And it goes against a lot 490 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:54.920 of our intuitions. A lot of teachers will want to say, 491 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.759 how can we make learning easier? And I think that's 492 00:23:57.759 --> 00:23:59.640 probably the first problem is you don't want it to 493 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:01.880 be easy. You want it to be not a struggle 494 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.440 but a challenge, so that you can appreciate just how 495 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.319 difficult it is. So I learned nothing else from that 496 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.160 Wizard of Oz is now when I do a presentation 497 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:11.759 or talk to other people, I love to see the 498 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:13.599 room I'm going to be working in, and maybe you 499 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.640 know a scientific presentation, maybe you've done this too the 500 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:18.920 night before you're like, oh, this is the auditorium and 501 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.720 probably raises your arousal level, but it makes you feel 502 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:24.400 more comfortable than the day of. 503 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.160 I don't have a photographic memory. I wish I did, 504 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:29.839 or maybe I wish i'd I didn't what A long 505 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:34.079 time ago I decided I was in a really cool circumstance. 506 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:36.400 I was on a picnic. It was my first girlfriend, 507 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.920 and I remember thinking like, gosh, she's so beautiful. I'm 508 00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:40.599 just going to take a picture. We were just sitting 509 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:43.319 at this park that's up in the hills behind where 510 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.400 I used to live, and I just went and I decided, okay, 511 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:47.920 like I remember the picture now. Of course in my 512 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:51.400 mind now it's it's blurry, like I don't remember specific details, 513 00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:53.599 but I remember more or

less. I think I remember 514 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.480 that the angle was that. And then like a year 515 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.160 and a half ago, I was in Manhattan. I was 516 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:01.480 in an uber and I just say, maybe I could 517 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:04.880 just do that for a like a trivial street scene. 518 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.359 So I just like, look, there was that one of 519 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:09.319 those scaffolds for construction, and I just decided, you know, 520 00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:10.799 just do that. And there was a guy walking by, 521 00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:12.680 and I'm like, I wonder if I'll remember it. And 522 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.200 I still remember it now. The question I have is 523 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:17.880 do I actually remember the content of what I saw 524 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:22.559 besides just their crewd you know, the scaffold, the guy 525 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.319 In one case, you know, my girlfriend. We were sitting 526 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.720 on this nice big lawn above there's this lake there. 527 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.359 It's a beautiful spot. Impalta is still there or is 528 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:36.240 what's stamped in my decision to do that? And that 529 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.880 and the sort of conscious collection of it is? Is it? 530 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.839 These weren't like big, emotionally salient events. But the difference 531 00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:48.799 between these visual memories and other visual memories is that 532 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:54.240 the emotional load wasn't that high. But I made the 533 00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:55.839 decision to do it. It was like it was coming 534 00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.079 from me. It was so I'm not just trying to remember, 535 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.759 like like we also went to was her senior my 536 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:03.480 junior prom? Like I don't I remember a few things 537 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:05.920 from that prom, but I can't remember. I don't have 538 00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:08.400 a visual picture of the prom. But the prom was 539 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:13.480 also a lot more emotionally, you know, laden than anything 540 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:15.319 I just described. Does that make sense? 541 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:17.960 Yeah, it's this fascinating question because I think selection is 542 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.839 the important thing here, that you're making a conscious decision 543 00:26:20.839 --> 00:26:22.880 like this is a special moment, can I just. 544 00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:23.759 Take a picture of it? 545 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:26.160 And the work on visual memory is interesting. We are 546 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.759 very visual people, but the research on photographic memory does 547 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.599 show that even people who have very strong visual memory 548 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.400 will make memory errors. So it's not that

you know, 549 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:40.240 it's exactly photographic, but their visual memories exceptional. I think 550 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.160 what's interesting here, and this is something I think is important, 551 00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:45.640 is the selection process that you're choosing. This is a 552 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:48.359 special moment. I'm going to time stamp it and remember it. 553 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.319 You're not doing anything special other then realizing a lot 554 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:55.000 is going on now, there's probably some emotional valance there 555 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.519 versus taking this random picture in New York City. And 556 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:00.279 it would be interesting to kind of test to your 557 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.079 memory later, because we know, sometimes we think we remember 558 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.279 something well and in fact we misremember things or details. 559 00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:09.440 And hopefully you know you've got the right girlfriend, of course, 560 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:11.319 but maybe the hill looks a little bit different, or 561 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:13.359 sometimes people are like, of course it was spring because 562 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.279 we went to the prom, but it's like, no, actually, 563 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.240 now that you know, it was a different season entirely, 564 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:20.680 that was fall and confusing with the other picnic that 565 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:23.759 I took. But I think that's important, especially as you 566 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.160 know we get older, that there are some memories. These days, 567 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:28.720 we have our phones for everything, so you probably probably 568 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:30.519 couldn't then, but you could have pulled out your phone 569 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:32.279 and actually taken a picture. And you see a lot 570 00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:35.440 of people offloading information. Now you know, I'm not going 571 00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.240 to remember this, I'll take a picture. There is some 572 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.240 research showing that that act of deciding to take the 573 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:43.839 picture actually improves your own memory. 574 00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:45.839 For the event for the event interesting. 575 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:46.240 Now. 576 00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.400 It can also make your memory worse because you're realizing 577 00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:51.480 I want to I'm taking this photo so I don't 578 00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:54.359 need to remember it later, and so you could see 579 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:57.839 it going both ways. But that selection process is important. 580 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:00.960 So sometimes you're choosing this is and I'm going to 581 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.480 offload it and take a picture, or this is a 582 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:05.480 special moment. I want to take this

picture and I 583 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:07.480 see it. You know, when I take pictures of my family, 584 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.799 this is a special moment. I want to take this photo. 585 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:11.880 But there are times where I'm like, I don't have 586 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.640 my camera. I don't want to interfere. This is going 587 00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:16.799 to be like an internal memory that I can take 588 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:19.000 and hopefully it lasts forever. 589 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.160 I tell myself that my mindset at the time was 590 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:25.599 this is a special moment. I never want to forget this. Yeah, 591 00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.039 I hope I never forget it. 592 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:30.160 Well, you know, memory is reconstructive, and I think you know, 593 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:32.160 the more you retrieve it and go back there, the 594 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.880 more you'll have this feeling of remembering it, and our 595 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.240 brain does a lot of interesting things in terms of 596 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.200 you know, reconstructing the past also has a similar brain 597 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:44.799 signature as imagining the future, which you know, in some 598 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:46.920 ways makes sense we shouldn't have separate parts of the 599 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.240 brain for thinking about the past and thinking about the future. 600 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.799 But that can kind of then predict why you might 601 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:56.160 misremember something, why your imagination has to be based surely 602 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:59.799 on the experiences you've had already, right Or you know, 603 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:01.240 if I say, what would it be like to go 604 00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:04.400 to Mars, Well, you've never been to Mars, but you've 605 00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.079 seen movies in the past about it. 606 00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:07.359 So are you know? 607 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.039 If I said, imagine a space alien, you and I, 608 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.400 being similar age, are probably going to think of the 609 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:16.319 et version of one, whereas someone who's younger than us 610 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:19.200 might have a very different kind of representation of that. 611 00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:21.640 So it's interesting to think of memory as kind of 612 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.160 a reconstruction of the past, but also imagining the future 613 00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:27.680 involves you know, our past experiences. 614 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.680 Never thought about it that way. It's the perfect time, 615 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:34.440 I think to raise the quote that a former guest 616 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.039 on this podcast put on social media the other day. 617 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.519 They weren't his words, but this Morgan Hausel did a 618 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:45.440 really wonderful episode on the psychology of money, and I 619 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:47.720 really love his first book, but also a second book, 620 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:51.599 The Art of Spending Money. He put out a He said, 621 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:55.759 it's a Russian quote. The past is more unpredictable than 622 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.839 the future. Yeah, goodness. That raises questions about I witness testimony, 623 00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.759 spousal arguments. You know. I occasionally we'll get an email 624 00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:06.599 my wife and I are have a debate, or my 625 00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:08.880 husband and I are debate, And I have a rule 626 00:30:08.920 --> 00:30:13.519 I don't get into uh spousaled uh debates or arguments 627 00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:16.839 of any kind. So do we remember things the way 628 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:21.240 they happened? Or do we confabulate? Do we muck it 629 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:21.640 all up? 630 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:23.240 You know, I don't think we muck it all up, 631 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:25.640 and I don't think we do it intentionally either, But 632 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:28.000 as a result of all the information we have in 633 00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:31.359 our memory, we're constantly interpreting, you know, the future and 634 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.480 our current state. And you spoke a little bit about 635 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.160 eyewitness memory. I think that's a really good example of that, 636 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:41.160 where something horrible might have happened. And like your experience 637 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:42.880 where you think you're taking a picture and you're going 638 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:45.960 to remember everything, and it feels like you will. I 639 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.119 can remember the shirt, I can remember the smell, I 640 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.880 can remember the weather, and sometimes that can be accurate. 641 00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:54.480 But a lot of research shows that sometimes we misremember 642 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.599 these things, and some of these classic cases, unfortunately, you 643 00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:00.920 know now that there's DNA evident, you can determine that 644 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.119 maybe they got the wrong person. And when that happens, 645 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.240 you want to look back and say, how could that happen? 646 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.920 And some of it comes down to faulty eyewitness identification. 647 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:13.640 And these are not cases where people are lying or 648 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:18.039 intentionally changing things, but they'll identify someone, they'll say that's 649 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:21.400 the person, and as a result of identifying that person 650 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:25.880 in a lineup, that person then replaces what they actually saw. 651 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:28.880 So our memory can be contaminated, just

like any form 652 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.880 of evidence could be contaminated. And then when you replay 653 00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:35.400 it again, you're replaying the person you identified, not the 654 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:36.720 person you actually saw. 655 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:39.960 Wow. So it's almost like we as we become more 656 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.440 familiar with this person that we identified, quote unquote, our 657 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.680 knowledge about them facial features, etc. Is elaborated in our 658 00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.440 brain and we superimpose that on the actual experience. 659 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:56.000 Yeah, and this is one of the most famous cases, 660 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.480 Ronald Cotton case where really horrible event happened and the 661 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:03.480 woman made a point of trying to remember her attacker. 662 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:05.480 So it wasn't just she got a quick glance, but 663 00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:08.079 she had a long interaction with him in this, you know, 664 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:10.960 a traumatic event, and she said, if I survived this, 665 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:13.359 I want to remember his face so I can identify 666 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:13.839 him later. 667 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:15.079 So this is like the. 668 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.359 Perfect situation where your memory should be sharp. And it 669 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.079 was cross race identification, which we know is not as 670 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.759 reliable as identifying someone of your own race. And when 671 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:28.640 she saw a lineup she identified, she took her time 672 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:31.480 and said, this feels like it's a multiple choice test, 673 00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:34.480 and I studied hard for it. She took her time, 674 00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.799 and she identified the person and she thought, in her mind, 675 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.240 this is the person who was inches from my throat, 676 00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:43.920 and she identified him, and he had an alibi that 677 00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:47.400 didn't stand up, and he was you know then you know, 678 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.599 found guilty, and it was only you know, decades later 679 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.440 that DNA evidence exonerated him, and she felt horrible. 680 00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:57.559 She felt like, you know. 681 00:32:57.559 --> 00:32:59.480 And there's a lot of reasons why this could happen, 682 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:03.759 you know, whether leading questions or how the identification process 683 00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.000 was conducted. But she was trying to do what she 684 00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.359 felt was her job and take someone who she thought 685 00:33:09.400 --> 00:33:13.400 was guilty off the street. And later they got to 686 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:17.920 meet in fact, and she you know, could apologize to him. 687 00:33:17.960 -->

00:33:21.039 She felt terrible. And so this is one case study, 688 00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:24.119 and you know, I wouldn't draw any conclusions, but it 689 00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:26.359 had a lot of the principles that we've talked about. 690 00:33:26.359 --> 00:33:29.480 Where you feel like you're taking a photo it's a 691 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:33.319 cross race identification where your confidence might be high for 692 00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.920 a good reason, but accuracy might not be. And then 693 00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.279 this kind of changing of the face, whereas once you 694 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.400 identify the face, that's what you start to remember. And 695 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.839 so I think there's a lot of interesting memory principles 696 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:46.480 at play here. 697 00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:49.319 How does the legal system deal with this kind of thing. 698 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:51.839 I mean, nowadays there's so many more cameras and phones 699 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.759 which can track location. I like to think those things 700 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:00.559 have improved the courtroom scenarios that it's hard for people 701 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:02.160 to make genuine mistakes. 702 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.759 Yeah, I think it's you know, memory should be treated 703 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.400 as one source of evidence, just like DNA, just like 704 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.480 any sort of evidence. But also we need to be 705 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.480 aware that it can be contaminated just like any other 706 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:14.480 source of evidence as well. So we can't just say, oh, 707 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.719 DNA evidence is perfect. Well, it can also be contaminated 708 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.000 in predictable ways. And I think, you know, coming back 709 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.440 to this idea of metacognition. Most people feel like they 710 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:26.679 have a pretty good understanding of how memory works, but 711 00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:31.039 it's not always accurate and sometimes confidence high confidence doesn't 712 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:34.440 necessarily mean high accuracy. And I think part of the 713 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:36.719 reason we're fooled is usually, you know, the more you 714 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:38.800 see something, the better you'll remember it, just like the 715 00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:42.639 Apple logo. But that's not always the case. And there's 716 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:45.239 predictable reasons why the more you see something, the more 717 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:47.639 you might stop it tending to the features or you 718 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:49.960 don't need to use it, And so that is a 719 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.840 more kind of predictable memory principle. But we don't have this, 720 00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.440 you know, always accurate metacognitive insight. And I think that's interesting. 721 00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.039 I think that's both concerning, you know, when it's memory case, 722 00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:04.320 but it's also important for learning. How can we be 723 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.719 kind of effective and maximize our learning. 724 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:09.679 I have a question about what I want to call 725 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:12.119 medium term memory. I don't even know if that's a 726 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:16.119 real term short term memory working memory. Listeners of this 727 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:18.239 podcast may or may not be familiar with working memories 728 00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:20.760 like keeping a phone number online in your head or 729 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.920 a string of numbers until you need it and then 730 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:26.960 kind of you may or may not remember it long term, 731 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.960 long term memory, obviously long term memory. But there's this 732 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:32.960 thing that I do today. It's a bit of a confessional. 733 00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:41.119 So when I check into hotels, I always look at 734 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.239 the map of how to get out in a fire, 735 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:45.920 because once staying at a hotel in San Francisco for 736 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.880 a donor event, the alarm went off the middle of 737 00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.320 the night. Everyone of course stuck their head out to 738 00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:53.440 look to see if anyone was leaving, and everyone like, 739 00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:56.719 we're not leaving, and then they called everyone's room. It 740 00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:58.280 was an actual fire, which taught me like when the 741 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:04.199 alarm goes, go right, and it was pretty confusing. Wide hallways, 742 00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:07.559 wasn't clear. Exit sign was not to like the actual stairwell. 743 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.119 It was you know, it's not a good situation. But 744 00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.719 of course got out fine. But from now on, before 745 00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:15.960 I go to sleep, I go and I look at 746 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:19.039 the where you are here, I look for the exit. 747 00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:22.079 I occasionally walk the hall. I don't want to be 748 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.079 in this situation again, especially in a high rise. I 749 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:25.480 just do not want to be in a situation where 750 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.280 I can't get out of a building that's on fire. 751 00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:30.119 I figure it takes like five minutes. People laugh at me, 752 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.519 and I do this, but I make a mental map. Okay, 753 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.400 so let's assume it's smoky. I do this saying, okay, 754 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.880 I would which is the closer door? I would go right, 755 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.760 then left, right then okay. So I drill it in 756 00:36:40.800 -->

00:36:43.599 my head, good and I go sleep. I never remember 757 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.320 the maps, but it's not working memory. It's not short 758 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:49.079 term memory. I couldn't tell you for the life of 759 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:52.920 me what the last hotel map looked like in my head? 760 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:56.920 How do you are here? Red dot had doors at exit? 761 00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:01.119 So I had these component parts. But what memory is that? 762 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:04.239 And thank goodness, I don't remember because it's going to 763 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:06.920 change every time I'm in a different hotel. Yeah, so 764 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.039 what are the mechanisms that allow for selective forgetting? That's healthy? 765 00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.880 And also is medium term memory and actual thing? 766 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.159 Well, I think when you're saying medium term, that's your 767 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:20.400 everyday basic memory function where you're like, I need to 768 00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.320 remember things, but I don't think I need to remember 769 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:24.480 them that long, but I really need to remember them 770 00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.880 today or tonight, and it makes me sleep better at night. 771 00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:30.519 And I've had a similar experience. I was staying in 772 00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:32.960 a hotel with my family, and the fire alarm went 773 00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:35.519 off and we're like, what do we do? Well, we 774 00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:37.639 know we don't take the elevator, that's what you're always told. 775 00:37:37.639 --> 00:37:39.599 And I don't think I looked at the map, but 776 00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:41.719 I look down the hall, and I swear when I 777 00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:44.239 look down the hall, I saw smoke. And so I'm like, 778 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.119 let's not go that way. So we went down the 779 00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:48.400 other way. We rushed down the stairs. We got outside, 780 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:52.679 and the kids were pretty traumatic. And actually if one 781 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:55.599 of our children was like eight stories ahead of us 782 00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:59.280 going down the stairs. But what's interesting is I thought 783 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:01.719 I saw smoke, and that's maybe and my glasses on, 784 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.239 But that's my mind playing tricks on me. So maybe 785 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.840 that was my concern. But I think that you know, 786 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:13.119 this everyday memory is is really relevant, and when you're 787 00:38:13.159 --> 00:38:15.519 studying that map, you're making notes of like, Okay, it's 788 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:17.519 close by, it's down the hall, I have to go 789 00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:22.079 down here, And that can be very informative and useful 790 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:25.039 for survival. And there's some research saying that that's basically 791 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:27.559 what our brain is tuned towards is surviving. You know, 792 00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:28.880 where am I going to eat? How am I going 793 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:29.280 to sleep? 794 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:29.920 How am I going to. 795 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.960 So when you say everyday memory, I think that's probably 796 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:36.239 the most important thing. And part of that memory formation 797 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.519 is also then forgetting it and updating it. It's as 798 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.280 simple as that. You should you need to know your 799 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.719 hotel room number when you're staying there, But if I 800 00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.760 ask you your hotel room number a week later, it's gone. 801 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:50.519 But that's good in a way because you're going to 802 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:52.960 have other numbers to remember, and other hotel room numbers 803 00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:56.719 to remember. So there's benefits of forgetting and you want 804 00:38:56.760 --> 00:38:59.199 to So I think that's an interesting insight. You're doing 805 00:38:59.239 --> 00:39:01.880 some processing to remember something, but then you need to 806 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.280 update it and forget it, and you know it's the 807 00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:07.639 same thing. I think the best thing you can do 808 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:09.599 in that case is, you know, studying the map is 809 00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:11.559 one thing, but some people aren't great with maps. And 810 00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:14.639 where am I in the hotel? Is doing that active 811 00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:16.960 learning of actually walking the halls of like, well, I 812 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:19.280 go down here and there's the elevator, so I can't 813 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:22.000 go there. Oh, they're the stairs. I'll remember that and 814 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:23.760 then you can kind of encode it. So that sort 815 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.480 of active learning is like us with the fire extinguisher, 816 00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:28.880 we made people get up and find it instead of 817 00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:31.519 telling people where it was. And I'm always you know, 818 00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:34.000 when you're on a flight, they'll always say there's six 819 00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.039 emergency exits on this plane, And then I think they 820 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:37.920 do the wrong thing. 821 00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:39.679 They tell you where they are. 822 00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:42.760 I think the best thing would be to say, you know, 823 00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:46.599 there's six emergency exits on this plane. Well, I'm not 824 00:39:46.639 --> 00:39:48.840 going to think not where they are, but go find them. 825 00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:52.360 And I noticed maybe it's just myself being anxious. As 826 00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:54.599 soon as they say

that, I'm looking behind me. I'm 827 00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:56.960 making sure I know where they all are, whereas most 828 00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000 people are like, oh, they pointed here, here and here 829 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:01.960 and say sometimes and yes, one is behind you, and 830 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:03.400 I'm like, well, I want to see where it is 831 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.840 behind me. And so I think that sort of act 832 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:09.199 of learning, whether you call it everyday memory, is really important. 833 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.760 And I think when we talk about memory, people are like, 834 00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:14.440 I can't remember names. I'm like, that's kind of a 835 00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.800 common thing. But if you need to sometimes remember like 836 00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:20.360 what medication are you taking, or how did you react 837 00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:22.519 the last time you saw this person in those sorts, 838 00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:24.480 I think it's really important to be in tune with 839 00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.159 what you're calling this kind of everyday average memory. 840 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.519 I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, 841 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:34.480 ag One. Ag one is a vitamin, mineral probiotic drink 842 00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:38.800 that also includes prebiotics and adaptogens. I discovered ag one 843 00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:41.639 way back in twenty twelve, long before I ever had 844 00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:44.039 a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. 845 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.519 The reason I started taking ag one and the reason 846 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:49.119 I still take it every day is because AG one is, 847 00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:52.199 to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of 848 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:55.559 the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. AG one is 849 00:40:55.559 --> 00:40:58.360 designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and 850 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.000 overall energy, and it does so by helping to fill 851 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:03.320 any gaps that you might have in your daily nutrition. 852 00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:05.960 I get asked pretty much all the time if I 853 00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:08.320 could only take one supplement, what should that supplement be? 854 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:11.239 And my answer is always ag one. It has just 855 00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.679 been so helpful for supporting all aspects of physical health, 856 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.239 mental health, and performance. If you would like to try 857 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:20.039 AG one, you can go to drink ag one dot 858 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.960 com slash Huberman to get a special offer. For a 859 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.320 limited time, ag one is giving away a free bottle 860 00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:28.760 of their new Omega three coenzyme Q ten product. Omega 861 00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.039 three and coenzyme Q ten are known to support cardiovascular health, 862 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:35.840 cellular health, and energy generally, brain health, and much more. 863 00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:39.199 I personally take them both every day. Again, go to 864 00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.400 drinkag one dot com slash Huberman to get a free 865 00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:44.840 bottle of the new Omega three coenzyme Q ten with 866 00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:48.280 your first ag one subscription. Thank you for that, And 867 00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:50.559 I'm going to use that as weaponry. And when I 868 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:55.119 get teased for walking, the fire exits. But it was 869 00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:58.480 because in part because the first time people were asking, 870 00:41:58.519 --> 00:41:59.599 he do you know if we should leave? Do you 871 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:00.800 know what? Do you know which way to go? And 872 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:03.840 I realized, Okay, next time it might as well be me. 873 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:05.679 I'll be the guy that knows which way to go, 874 00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:08.079 certainly for myself, and then I can tell other people 875 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:10.519 which way to go. Nobody else here knows where to go, 876 00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:12.159 and most likely they're not going to know. The next 877 00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:14.639 time I do the thing on the plane too, I think, okay, 878 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:16.599 I actually read the thing of how to take it 879 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:19.800 out because I figured, well, I've experienced how under conditions 880 00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:24.480 a very high arousal, you just default to what almost 881 00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:28.519 feel like whatever was trained, whatever reflexes you have. I mean, 882 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.199 I had a scuba diving accident years ago, and I 883 00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:33.119 don't like to say, you know, came close to the end, 884 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:34.599 but it was an air failure and it was a 885 00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.159 whole mess, and you just default too. Yeah, we had 886 00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:39.840 to do the whole share air thing. It was a 887 00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:43.719 precarious situation to begin with, and you just default to 888 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.679 these routines. Actually, recently I watch what I think is 889 00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:50.079 a spectacular documentary about Dean Potter, who was a He 890 00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:54.679 was a free solo climber, a predecessor to Alex Hanold. 891 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:57.559 He was kind of the guy to beat and Hanld 892 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.079 passed him up pretty early, and he got into wingsuiting 893 00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:02.800 and base jumping and the whole thing. And there was 894 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.320 this there's a scene where, so be warned if you 895 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:09.920 watch

this amazing four part series, there's a scene where 896 00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:14.239 people are doing base jumping and Yosemite are advocating for 897 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.280 it being legal. In Yosemite, it's illegal, and so there 898 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:18.920 are a bunch of spectators there and they were doing 899 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:22.320 this big demonstration jump and a woman who was a 900 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:27.519 very very seasoned bass jumper. She didn't want to use 901 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.800 her own gear because they were confiscating people's gear at 902 00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:33.159 the bottom, so she borrowed someone else's gear and she 903 00:43:33.320 --> 00:43:36.719 jumps and she's used to pulling from a leg pull. 904 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:38.360 I guess it is. And you just see her the 905 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.320 whole way down, the whole way down, and she's got 906 00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:44.320 you know, she's got a parachute on and just you know, 907 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:46.840 not to give it away, but I guess you know, 908 00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:52.760 gave it away that she dies. But the whole way 909 00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:54.760 down you can see her just doing this routine movement 910 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.119 and she put on a different pack. She knew that 911 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:00.880 it was a different pole location. So when your conditions 912 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:05.440 are very high arousal, even highly highly trained people for 913 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.079 that condition, they just default to whatever it is that 914 00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:09.519 they're used to doing. And if you don't know what 915 00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:11.239 to do, your default in not knowing what to do. 916 00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:13.199 If you know what to do, your default of what 917 00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:15.079 you think you need to do in one situation. And 918 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.559 I've had that experience scuba diving. It's very clear from 919 00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:20.519 this documentary, and I think we're all a little naive 920 00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:24.159 and thinking that, oh no, like when the alarm goes 921 00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:26.360 and everything is crazy, like I'm going to sort through 922 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:29.079 this in a regimented way, like or I'll be so 923 00:44:29.159 --> 00:44:31.519 keyed up I'll have to figure it out. This is 924 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:33.599 not quite the case. The brain seems to not work 925 00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:33.960 that way. 926 00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:36.360 Yeah, I think we discover that, you know, in these 927 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:39.679 extreme situations, but also even kind of in some simple situations. 928 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.360 There's there's a really concerning thing that happens that people 929 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:46.559 will leave children, infants in the back of their car unattended, 930 00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:51.719 and you know, these infants will will die on hot days. 931 00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.280 And when you look at these investigations, the reason this 932 00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:57.440 happens is, you know, these are very responsible, very intelligent 933 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.880 parents who will you know, put their child in the 934 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:02.880 car and then get in the car, and then you 935 00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:04.800 just get in this mode of I'm going to work, 936 00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:07.159 I'm going to do my job, and you're in this routine. 937 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:11.159 The baby falls asleep, you drive to work, you go upstairs, 938 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:12.800 you do it, and then you and then you get 939 00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:15.400 this phone call like whereas your infant or why haven't 940 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:17.639 they been dropped off? And you're thinking, what what are 941 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:18.400 you talking about? 942 00:45:18.440 --> 00:45:19.679 Whoa exactly? 943 00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:21.920 I'm sure many people listening to this are like, there's 944 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:24.559 no way, there's no way. 945 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:26.559 Well I think there's like, there's no way that could 946 00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:29.440 happen to me. This must be some person who's super 947 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:34.320 distracted or has this. Sadly, it happens too often to people, 948 00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:36.679 you know, all sorts of people, and I think that's 949 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:38.719 part of the issues, Like like you're saying, she's going 950 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:41.000 to grab the strap where it normally is you drive 951 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:42.840 to work one hundred times this way, but it's this 952 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:45.480 one day where it's your turn to take the infant 953 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.920 to day care, and you just get into this mode, 954 00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:52.119 this habit, this routine, and now we have to have 955 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:53.960 you know, our car talking to us. 956 00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:54.960 You know, some cars will. 957 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.079 Even say, you know, have you checked the backseat for 958 00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:59.679 an infinite It's like, gosh, have we come to that 959 00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.360 level where we need to be reminded of these things? 960 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:04.719 So I think that's where you know, you're right, it 961 00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:07.719 becomes lethal that, you know. Sometimes it's talked about in 962 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:11.000 terms of prospective memory, remembering to do something in the future. 963 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:13.199 We think of memories usually as remembering to do something 964 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:15.519 from the past, right, But a lot of it is 965 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.000 you know, what do you have to do today? Are 966 00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:19.079 you

meeting this person? We have offload this to our 967 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:23.280 phones and get reminders, but we're prone to forgetting, and 968 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.320 especially under you're talking about high arousal, this person's falling 969 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.000 but it's even as simple as when you're in the car, 970 00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:31.920 and you're probably aware. When you're in the car, you 971 00:46:31.960 --> 00:46:34.719 start mind wandering, You're thinking of a million other things, 972 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:37.360 and all of a sudden you've arrived somewhere. You missed 973 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:39.639 your turn. So our brain kind of takes over in 974 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:41.280 the ways that we might not be sure about. 975 00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:44.679 Yeah, one of the things that spooks me about scuba diving, 976 00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:47.079 and I love scuba diving is, you know, I got 977 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:50.199 my patty certification because it's a bit more involved, but 978 00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.280 it worries me that you actually don't have to update 979 00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:57.400 and if you do, not very often. Right, It's been gosh, 980 00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:59.960 it's been four or more five years since i went 981 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:01.880 scuba diving last time. But I've got my card, I 982 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:04.119 have my gear, and if somebody wants to go scuba 983 00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:07.920 diving tomorrow, I can do it legally. But there's a 984 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.519 lot involved, like you need to brush up and so, 985 00:47:11.079 --> 00:47:12.639 you know, I mean here in the United States, we 986 00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:14.960 have all this, like you know, people can sue each other. 987 00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:17.159 There are all these legal protections, but there's still a 988 00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:19.880 lot of ways in which we can do damage ourselves 989 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:21.559 or others just by virtue of the fact that we're 990 00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:25.800 we don't have to brush up on driving skills. You know, 991 00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:28.599 it's kind of a shock to me that we don't 992 00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:31.760 have more more problems related to forgetting. 993 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:33.679 It's true, I think the more you think about it, 994 00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:37.280 it's amazing how much we do remember, especially under some circumstances. 995 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:39.079 But I agree that a lot of this, you know, 996 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:42.559 scuba diving too, because you're underwater with you know, buoyancy, 997 00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:45.079 you have to figure things out. And I got certified 998 00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.719 too when I was twenty. I wouldn't trust myself to 999 00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:50.159 do it again. I'd want to probably take the entire 1000 00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.519 course again. And maybe, but when you're thirty, maybe you 1001 00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:56.800 feel confident and you know, especially drivers like new drivers. 1002 00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:01.000 You know, you give very little training to younger drivers 1003 00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:03.599 and then you're like, you're on your own. I've seen 1004 00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:07.000 it with my children learning to drive. I also realize 1005 00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:08.960 I'm not as good a driver as I thought I was. 1006 00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:12.559 I'm certainly passing on some habits that I probably should 1007 00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.239 be more aware of. And they're more rule based. They're 1008 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:17.199 aware of how to do things. But I have this 1009 00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:19.679 feeling like this wisdom, well, you don't need to do that, 1010 00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:21.360 or you know, that's the rule but I do it 1011 00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:23.880 this way, so I think you're right. I think we 1012 00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:28.039 revisiting these things more often and being more cognizant probably 1013 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:28.920 would make us safer. 1014 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:34.880 On the lighter side, many people who are concerned about 1015 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:40.480 their memory as they age will ask about forgetting. I 1016 00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:44.199 want to know why as people get older they tell 1017 00:48:44.239 --> 00:48:47.800 the same stories over and over again, same jokes, over 1018 00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:50.400 and over again. Have they forgotten that they've said the joke, 1019 00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:53.079 or they're just doing it for their own entertainment or 1020 00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:56.199 I don't know, Like what is this about? Like I 1021 00:48:56.199 --> 00:48:58.599 feel like someone needs to do that study, like, like, 1022 00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.719 why do people tell the same stories as they get. 1023 00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:03.840 Well, I think there's a lot of reasons. And you know, 1024 00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:06.400 a lot of memories do change with age, and some 1025 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.039 forms of memory, like source memory, tends to decline with age. 1026 00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:11.280 You can't remember where. 1027 00:49:11.079 --> 00:49:13.639 You saw the headline or who you told the joke to. 1028 00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:16.639 And sometimes I'll even say, you know, have I told 1029 00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.119 you this before? But sometimes it's just such a good 1030 00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:21.039 joke or such a good memory. I'm like, I don't 1031 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:22.639 really care because I'm going to tell it to you 1032 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.440 again because I'm enjoying this. And my kids will be like, yeah, 1033 00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:27.719 We've heard that so many times. I'm like, yeah, but 1034 00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:30.800 it's so good. So it's probably a little bit of both. 1035 00:49:30.840 -->

00:49:33.159 But I think there's also some nostalgia, Like we do 1036 00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:36.199 share family histories this way, and I think you know, 1037 00:49:36.199 --> 00:49:39.199 when families get together for Thanksgiving, there's this rehashing of 1038 00:49:39.239 --> 00:49:41.000 do you remember when this happened? It's like, yeah, we 1039 00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:44.280 tell that story every time. A lot of our histories 1040 00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:46.400 used to be oral histories. We're you know, we're telling 1041 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:49.239 stories and reminding people, and it's how we determine what 1042 00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:52.960 foods were safe. But yeah, I can see it's certainly frustrating. 1043 00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.320 I think we think, gosh, i'm talking to this older person. 1044 00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.480 They're telling me the same thing again, and you're nodding. 1045 00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:00.599 But I take a certain amount of enjoy from it. 1046 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:02.639 There's a nostalgia. 1047 00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:03.920 There's also a feeling. 1048 00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:07.599 Of familiarity, and so probably it's a collection of things. 1049 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:10.800 But you do see more pathological aging that people will 1050 00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:13.800 completely forget, you know, they'll say the same things. They'll 1051 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:16.280 ask what's for dinner again? Five minutes later, what's for 1052 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:18.960 dinner again? What's for dinner again? And that's where it's 1053 00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:23.280 probably more concerning, But it is an interesting thing to 1054 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:26.159 note that as we get older, we might engage in 1055 00:50:26.199 --> 00:50:27.199 that sort of behavior. 1056 00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:31.960 What is the consensus now on Alzheimer's and memory loss generally? 1057 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:36.039 Meaning is it inevitable that people lose some amount of memory? 1058 00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:40.199 And conditions like Alzheimer's are just a more rapid downward trajectory. 1059 00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:42.920 And we could talk about superagers, these people that seem 1060 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:47.880 to maintain cognition well better than their peers. Anyway, are 1061 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:50.159 there people who just you know, a sharp till the 1062 00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:52.280 day they take their last breath, and that last breath 1063 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.840 comes in their nineties or even past one hundred? 1064 00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:58.519 Yeah, I think just of diversity that a company's aging 1065 00:50:58.599 --> 00:51:00.519 is really interesting. You could look at a one hundred 1066 00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:02.679 year old who's doing really well and a sixty year 1067 00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:04.719 old who's not doing so well. So we can't just 1068 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:08.440 use kind of biological age as the marker. And as 1069 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:12.719 a psychologist, of course, I'm interested in psychological aspects. And 1070 00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:16.000 there's you know, an old study on nuns, who you know, 1071 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:18.199 it's interesting to see how you can test different people, 1072 00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:23.280 but nuns are very committed to their profession. And you 1073 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:25.519 found that these nuns, how they age, some of them 1074 00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:28.480 certainly when they passed away. Their brains had these kind 1075 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:32.880 of hallmark signs of dementia plaques and tangles, but behaviorally 1076 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:36.119 they were still high functioning. So it's really interesting that 1077 00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:40.719 the hardware shows what we see as dementia and specifically 1078 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:44.960 Alzheimer's disease, but their behavior was that of a fairly 1079 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:48.639 healthy cognitive person. So something else has to be going on, 1080 00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:50.599 and you know, it could be some people say it's 1081 00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:54.000 having a sense of purpose, could be having social connections. 1082 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.800 We know that's incredibly important. I think we do have 1083 00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.880 a certain amount of control over it. And some of 1084 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.159 that it might be based on physical exercise and sleep, 1085 00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:04.840 so I know, things you've talked about before, and some 1086 00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:06.719 of it is having a kind of a positive attitude 1087 00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:08.719 about aging that if you feel like you you know, 1088 00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:10.960 some people say, well, it's all genetics, so what do 1089 00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:11.559 I have to do? 1090 00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.920 Well, if you go on a walk, some really good. 1091 00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:17.960 Research shows that you know, walking three four times a 1092 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:21.800 week can enhance hippocampal function, the part of the brain 1093 00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:25.199 that's very involved in declarative memory, and that part of 1094 00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:28.519 the brain you know, having turned fifty recently tends to 1095 00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:31.480 decline by about one two percent a year in terms 1096 00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:33.679 of volume, So this is kind of physical shrinkage of 1097 00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:36.679 the brain. But in the walking group, the group that 1098 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:39.199 was randomly assigned to walk three four times a week 1099 00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:41.719 for forty minutes, compared to a stretching group who's still 1100 00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:46.559 engaging in exercise but not cardiovascular exercise, the walking group there, 1101 00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:50.320 you know, hippocamp is actually

increased in volume by one percent, 1102 00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:54.360 So you're changing the brain, but you're also changing the behavior. 1103 00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:56.320 Their memory was much better a year later. 1104 00:52:56.960 --> 00:52:57.400 So I think. 1105 00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.239 You know, if you saw a doctrine said, you know, 1106 00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:02.159 I'm having some memory problems, what can I do? Most 1107 00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:05.199 people are looking for a pill or you know, sometimes 1108 00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.880 it's eat this or do that. But I think physical 1109 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:11.920 exercise can be so important, and it probably a mechanism 1110 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:14.239 we don't know exactly, but it probably trickles down to 1111 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:17.079 things like improvements in sleep as well. You know, if 1112 00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:19.880 you're getting exercise maybe earlier in the day, you're going 1113 00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.119 to have better mood, You're going to sleep better. We 1114 00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.039 know a lot of memory formation happens when you're sleeping. 1115 00:53:26.079 --> 00:53:29.039 We know as we get older, our sleep quality tends 1116 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:33.000 to decline, even if our quantity tends to increase. So 1117 00:53:33.039 --> 00:53:34.880 I think just knowing that there are some things we 1118 00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:37.719 can do, and I'm using physical exercise as the example, 1119 00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:42.760 and it doesn't have to be you know, the extreme version, walking, dancing. 1120 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:47.519 A lot of people you know, enjoy being outside. That 1121 00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.199 can be incredibly important to offset some of the things 1122 00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:52.559 we do know can lead to dementia. 1123 00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:54.960 What's the walking vigorous you know? 1124 00:53:55.199 --> 00:53:58.079 In this group, I think it's really thirty or forty minutes, 1125 00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.519 And there's nothing special about walking, but it's something where 1126 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:04.320 you can randomly assign people to either walk or engage 1127 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:07.239 in stretching. So if you're biking, if you're swimming, if 1128 00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:09.760 you're dancing, any of these things can be beneficial. But 1129 00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.280 here it's you know, you can randomly assign people to walk, 1130 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:14.519 and it should be at a rate where you're you know, 1131 00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.119 there's research showing that the people who walk slightly faster 1132 00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:18.519 actually live longer. 1133 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:20.920 So we're you know, you're not. 1134 00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:22.440 Sure exactly causality. 1135 00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:25.119 There could certainly be that and a lot of this research. 1136 00:54:25.159 -->

00:54:27.000 It's tough to do aging research because it's hard to 1137 00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:31.199 randomly assign people to certain conditions. But I think as 1138 00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:33.119 a psychologist, knowing that you have a little bit of 1139 00:54:33.239 --> 00:54:36.880 control over the process is important, and I think you know, 1140 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.360 most people when they talk about aging, they're so worried 1141 00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:43.119 about demensions. You know Alzheimer's disease as a specific form, 1142 00:54:43.480 --> 00:54:46.440 but balance is even more important, I think, and most 1143 00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:50.280 people aren't even aware of their balance. So one in 1144 00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:53.119 four people over the age of sixty five will experience 1145 00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:56.320 a fall, and that fall can be very detrimental. You 1146 00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:59.400 can break your hip, your collarbone. Often you know you're 1147 00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:01.800 getting up at night, more frequently you trip over a 1148 00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:04.400 carpet or a rug, and you know if you're in 1149 00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:07.880 bed just recovering from these falls, you're not walking, you 1150 00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:11.119 know your hip a campusiness drinking. If you ask people how, 1151 00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.519 how's your balance, most people are like, well, it's fine, 1152 00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:16.400 I don't haven't had a fall. But there's a very 1153 00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:18.360 simple test. We could do it now if you want it, 1154 00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:20.199 where you just stand up and see if you can 1155 00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:23.199 balance on one leg for at least ten seconds. And 1156 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:25.239 I have you know, when I do presentations, I do 1157 00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:28.599 this ideally thirty forty minutes into the presentation. We shouldn't 1158 00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:31.519 be sitting for so long, and most people do pretty well. 1159 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:34.039 It's a younger group and sometimes it's older adults. I'm 1160 00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:36.360 speaking too, and you can tell you know, I'm like, 1161 00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:38.079 make sure you have something you will hold on to, 1162 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:42.400 and you can tell that balance changes considerably with age. 1163 00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:44.559 And then I say, okay, now try doing it with 1164 00:55:44.599 --> 00:55:47.760 your eyes closed. And I actually usually don't do this 1165 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:49.719 with my older adult group because then you see the 1166 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:52.320 younger people start to tip, and you know, it's very 1167 00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:54.559 we get a lot of cues from our visual environment for. 1168 00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:57.559 Balance, the young the older people tip everyone. 1169 00:55:57.719 --> 00:55:59.920 You'll see the younger people I start to

That's why 1170 00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:01.360 it's even more surprising. 1171 00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:02.800 It's like a field sobriety. 1172 00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:06.119 It very much is. But it's again from this metacognitive 1173 00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.559 standpoint where you think your balance is fine because you 1174 00:56:08.559 --> 00:56:10.880 haven't had a fall, but you could be close to 1175 00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:14.199 falling at any given point, and so you know, the cerebellum, 1176 00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:17.239 the almost very primitive part of the brain, is involved 1177 00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:19.920 in a lot of this. What's interesting with balance is 1178 00:56:19.960 --> 00:56:22.639 it's very trainable, and so you know there's parts of 1179 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:25.920 balance that are involved visual inner ear. But if you 1180 00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.880 engage in some training, and it can be as simple 1181 00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:30.599 as standing on one leg or doing yoga or tai chi, 1182 00:56:30.639 --> 00:56:34.079 you can improve your balance considerably. Within a month or two. 1183 00:56:34.119 --> 00:56:36.559 And so I think when I talk to older adults, 1184 00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:39.079 who you know, sometimes are even middle aged, worried about 1185 00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:42.360 their memory, I think balance is often overlooked and it's 1186 00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.280 something that's trainable. So I've started to do it a 1187 00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:48.400 little bit, and I've noticed changes in my balance sometimes. 1188 00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:50.360 Good I also know is that I don't sleep well. 1189 00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:54.000 My balance isn't as good, and I think that's probably 1190 00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:56.000 the most important thing to be on the lookout for, 1191 00:56:56.199 --> 00:56:58.360 because you know, these things are related. If you lose 1192 00:56:58.400 --> 00:56:59.800 your balance and you have a fall, you're not going 1193 00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:03.360 to be engaging physical exercise. Your memory is getting decline. 1194 00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:07.800 Yeah, the old skiers and the old surfers look to 1195 00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:12.440 be in pretty awesome shape. There are a million confounds there. 1196 00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:16.039 The sunlight, the social connection or water, the cold, the 1197 00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:19.880 you know. I mean, there are a bunch of things. Obviously, 1198 00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:22.679 it's not just the skiing or the surfing, but there 1199 00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.400 are certain sports where you look at the people when 1200 00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:28.199 you say, okay, they're not the biggest and strongest, nor 1201 00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:31.039 are they the ones with the most endurance, but on 1202 00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:36.639 balance they seem strong. Their posture looks good. Yeah, they 1203 00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:42.920 seem relatively happy. Who knows right. I'm intrigued by the 1204 00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:45.719 fact that I look at a lot of these videos 1205 00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:50.599 of superagers and athletes in their seventies, eighties, nineties who 1206 00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:54.039 are doing remarkably well. It's very rare to see a 1207 00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:58.119 video of athletes or non athletes past eighty where they're 1208 00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:00.880 breathing through their nose with their mouth shut almost always, 1209 00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:05.480 you see. Now, I'm not saying it's causal, but there 1210 00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:06.840 does seem to be a shift in the way that 1211 00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:08.800 people breathe as they get older. Just look at some 1212 00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:14.320 of the I forget his name now is a television personality. 1213 00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:16.679 It's been around alone, he's in his hundreds, and he's 1214 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:20.599 been on YouTube in the news programs recently. But at 1215 00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:24.400 rest it's like a mouth open breathing pattern. You kind 1216 00:58:24.400 --> 00:58:26.320 of wonder whether or not they're getting enough oxygen to 1217 00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:29.199 their brain. And I do think that the shift in 1218 00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:32.679 how we breathe, spontaneous movement, these things all go together, 1219 00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.000 and I do think each component part needs to be 1220 00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:39.800 looked at individually. So okay, so it's the movement, it's 1221 00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:43.400 the exercise, the novelty, the social connection, but ultimately there's 1222 00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:45.519 a lot of other things going on, Like we know 1223 00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:48.840 older people just don't. They don't move spontaneously very much. 1224 00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:52.239 We had Twila tharp in here, the world famous choreographer, 1225 00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:54.159 and she's in her somewhere in her eighties. You know, 1226 00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:58.360 she can deadlift her twice her body weight, works out 1227 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:01.639 at five am every morning for two hours. She boxed 1228 00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:06.199 for a while, but actual boxing because she's twilight, right. 1229 00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:09.199 She's a really uh she's got a lost spirit. But 1230 00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:13.360 she doesn't sit like I'm sitting, like kind of lazying back. 1231 00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:18.039 She's she's fully active and she's moving. She's nasal breathing 1232 00:59:18.039 --> 00:59:22.280 when unless she's speaking like she's she's her nervous system 1233 00:59:22.360 --> 00:59:25.440 is turned on. I notice that, and I know, God 1234 00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:27.519 willing I'll be I'll be like that. But I notice 1235 00:59:27.639 --> 00:59:30.079 with each passing year I take a few more opportunities 1236 00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:32.360 to lean against things, as

opposed to standing up, not 1237 00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:36.840 leaning against them, or starting to resemble the bulldogs I've owned. 1238 00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:39.159 There's an opportunity to lie down. They lie down if 1239 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:42.000 there's opportunity, you know, sleep, And I don't know that 1240 00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:44.719 that's good. Maybe we need to nudge ourselves to be 1241 00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:46.840 a little more active than we're comfortable now. 1242 00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:48.880 I think the insight is so important to be like, 1243 00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:51.119 I notice I'm doing more of this, or I'm looking 1244 00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:54.239 a lot like this, and I'm surprised that things starting 1245 00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.119 like posture or even breathing, and I think, you know, 1246 00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.039 I'm not an expert in this area, but just getting 1247 00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:01.480 more oxygen to the is so important. I think that's 1248 01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:04.480 probably the mechanism. You know, for physical exercise, you're go 1249 01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:07.559 getting more oxygen to your brain, which really as you 1250 01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:10.320 get older, it's harder to do that, and so exercise 1251 01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:13.280 might be kind of the mechanism that does that. And 1252 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:15.920 maybe with the advances, we're going to find other ways 1253 01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:20.360 to do that. But I think that insight is really important. 1254 01:00:20.440 --> 01:00:23.679 And it's also you know, we have age based stereotypes 1255 01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:26.440 of what happens, like, oh, as you get older, you know, 1256 01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:29.639 let's say, you know, my knee hurts and some people 1257 01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:32.800 are like, oh, well you're just getting older. Well my 1258 01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.400 other knee is the same age and it feels fine. 1259 01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:37.599 So something's going on. 1260 01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:40.760 Maybe there's some problem, there's something, but it does give 1261 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:42.679 you this feeling like, hey, there's something I can do 1262 01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:45.159 or maybe you know, I'm a firm believer like in 1263 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:47.840 physical therapy, like a lot of the exercises we do. 1264 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:50.280 You know, if you keep doing the same thing, that's great, 1265 01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.599 but then you lose a lot of the other you know, 1266 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.119 muscle mass, and you know, I think exercise, even walking, 1267 01:00:57.159 --> 01:00:59.719 people say it's really like a controlled form of losing 1268 01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:02.119 your balance and regaining it, and losing your balance and 1269 01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:05.159 regaining it. And so you add that into hiking, which 1270 01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:08.639 has unpredictable surfaces, and all these muscles that are you know, 1271 01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:11.840 you're not using too often now have to be engaged. 1272 01:01:11.880 --> 01:01:14.039 And so I think I think that coming back to 1273 01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:17.039 like challenging yourself can be very important. Putting yourself in 1274 01:01:17.199 --> 01:01:20.159 uncomfortable positions. I mean, it's great to be on this podcast, 1275 01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:22.400 but there's a time where I'm like, I'm not sure 1276 01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:23.559 I want to do this right? 1277 01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:26.239 You know, how do you get that? No? 1278 01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:28.880 Now I feel fine, But I think as we put 1279 01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:32.360 ourselves in these uncomfortable positions, and I remember, you know, 1280 01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:35.719 when I first started teaching, you're like, gosh, three hundred people, 1281 01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:39.000 you know this, this is an uncomfortable situation. And one 1282 01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.840 of one of my mentors said, you know what, there's 1283 01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.239 only one thing you need to do, and that's breathe. 1284 01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:47.559 Because you start to forget that, you know, that is 1285 01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:50.280 the most primitive thing to get oxygen to your brain. 1286 01:01:50.360 --> 01:01:52.679 That then you can do what you probably can do 1287 01:01:52.760 --> 01:01:56.760 quite well. And that's a psychological oversight where we just 1288 01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:59.079 kind of start. I don't know if it's just mouth breathing. 1289 01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:01.760 But as we get older, you know, or there's more stress, 1290 01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:04.880 we stop being aware of, you know, the things that 1291 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:05.960 can really help us. 1292 01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:09.159 Yeah. I notice with each passing year I get a 1293 01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:15.840 little more difficult with myself about the little things, you know, 1294 01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:18.000 Just like so I try and to this day, I 1295 01:02:18.199 --> 01:02:19.840 have to push myself and take the stairs a little 1296 01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.559 bit faster than I want to. I don't take escalators 1297 01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:27.320 unless there's no stairs available when I travel. I really 1298 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:31.199 I find that. But I have to push, you know, yeah, 1299 01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:35.360 I have to. I mean perhaps, uh, you know, collateral 1300 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:37.719 advantage of doing this podcast is I say things like that, 1301 01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:39.199 and now I don't want to get spotted in an 1302 01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:40.280 airport on escalator. 1303 01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:40.519 Right. 1304 01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:43.360 The other day, I normally train at home gym, but 1305 01:02:43.400 --> 01:02:45.559 I was in commercial gym and il seeing

music on 1306 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:46.960 my phone and this kid came up to me. Any 1307 01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:48.440 tabs he goes. I thought, you don't use your phone 1308 01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:51.159 when you work? Out, but I like sometimes I listen 1309 01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:53.400 to things. I just I'm not texting and sending messages. 1310 01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:55.559 And he was like, okay, you know, I said, wow, Well, 1311 01:02:55.800 --> 01:02:57.599 I have to be careful what I say, but it's nice. 1312 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:01.159 It actually has a forcing function. And I think that 1313 01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:03.039 as we get older, there are a lot of things 1314 01:03:03.079 --> 01:03:05.480 where we're not being observed, We're not we know we 1315 01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:06.920 should do them, but then we don't do them. And 1316 01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:10.280 I think the injury thing is and the pain thing 1317 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:14.280 is a big one. You know. I hear this all 1318 01:03:14.320 --> 01:03:17.440 the time, you know, like, yeah, I would exercise more, 1319 01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:19.519 but I got this shoulder thing. I got the same 1320 01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:21.679 And I think that's why there's so much excitement about 1321 01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:25.000 these peptides, and it's still very unclear, you know, what's 1322 01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:27.000 going to be useful or not. Actually, there's a study 1323 01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:31.480 out of Helen Blouse Lab at Stanford on mice and 1324 01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:34.960 humans where they found an inhibitor of the molecule that 1325 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:39.079 inhibits cartilage regeneration. They knock out this inhibitor or they 1326 01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:42.000 have a drug of analog that can do this in 1327 01:03:42.079 --> 01:03:45.840 humans and they observe regeneration of knee cartilage. I'm sure 1328 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.280 this is gonna be sourced to pharma. That's gonna be 1329 01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:50.159 the path because that's the typical path for labs at 1330 01:03:50.199 --> 01:03:52.679 Stanford if they have a discovery like that. But how 1331 01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:55.360 cool would that be? Right now, I'm not gonna win. 1332 01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:58.639 I have like no joint issues, But how cool would 1333 01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:00.760 that be? Because I think a lot of people just think, well, 1334 01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:04.079 the body wears out, yeah, you know, the hip wears out, 1335 01:04:04.159 --> 01:04:06.559 the knee wears out, and so when they have that pain, 1336 01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:08.840 they don't think they could overcome it by by movement. 1337 01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.599 They assume, well, you know, the chassis kind of going 1338 01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:12.679 and then yeah. 1339 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:15.239 Well a lot of this, you know, comes down to habits, 1340 01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:17.199 and some of it is motivation.

Right, It's hard to 1341 01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:19.320 get motivated to go to the gym, and as you 1342 01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:21.960 get older, more aches and pains. It's like harder to 1343 01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:24.440 get up, it's easier to sit down. But I think 1344 01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:27.440 knowing you have some control over it that you know 1345 01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:29.760 a lot of especially in midlife, people have back pain. 1346 01:04:29.880 --> 01:04:32.760 It's probably the most common thing, and it's probably from sitting. 1347 01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:35.760 You know, we work a lot, and especially in midlife, 1348 01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:38.440 there's some interesting you know, it's not always a linear 1349 01:04:38.559 --> 01:04:41.559 decline with age, and in fact, there's some interesting work 1350 01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:46.360 on you know, happiness being more curve linear like midlife 1351 01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:48.679 is actually some of the lowest levels of happiness and 1352 01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:50.199 life satisfaction. 1353 01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:50.639 Really like our age. 1354 01:04:50.800 --> 01:04:53.000 Yeah yeah, really, so I hope in some ways that 1355 01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:53.800 can go well. 1356 01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:54.880 In some ways it can be great. 1357 01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:57.239 Yeah, well, it can make you feel good because it 1358 01:04:57.440 --> 01:04:59.079 you know, a lot of people who might not feel 1359 01:04:59.079 --> 01:05:01.119 great at forty or fifth fifty if you said, well, 1360 01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:03.159 actually that's the lowest point in the graph, and it 1361 01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:06.440 can actually get better with age the title of my books. 1362 01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:09.360 But it makes you realize that as we get older 1363 01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:11.239 there are more aches and pains, and yet why are 1364 01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:13.880 older adults some of them who are fairly healthy and 1365 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:17.159 active are doing really well, whereas kind of when you're 1366 01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:20.840 younger and your body's in decent shape, we're doing things 1367 01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:23.480 like sitting, we're working a lot, we're stressed, we're not 1368 01:05:23.599 --> 01:05:26.320 handling our emotions as well as we could. And so 1369 01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:28.679 I think that's why aging is an interesting thing that 1370 01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:31.679 you know, we think when we're young, that's you know, 1371 01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:34.480 the best times in our lives. It actually might be 1372 01:05:34.519 --> 01:05:35.960 some of the most confusing times. 1373 01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:39.159 Are you happier at fifty than you were at forty? 1374 01:05:39.320 --> 01:05:42.880 I think I am. I think I'm more content. But 1375 01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:44.639 when I was at twenty or thirty, I could do 1376 01:05:44.679 --> 01:05:47.159 whatever I want. I could scuba dive, I could play basketball, 1377 01:05:47.159 --> 01:05:50.000 I'd bounced back from anat. 1378 01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:51.639 Was your internal landscape more peaceful. 1379 01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:52.480 Or more Absolutely not? 1380 01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:54.960 And I actually see it in a lot of undergraduates 1381 01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:57.119 who are like, it's a confusing time. You're trying to 1382 01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.440 figure out what you want to do, trying, You're in 1383 01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:02.559 a different place, you have different partners, it's you know. 1384 01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.760 And yet we say, we almost romanticize that college is 1385 01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:06.960 the best time in your life. 1386 01:06:07.159 --> 01:06:11.519 Oh my god. No, yeah, I'll say I even though 1387 01:06:11.559 --> 01:06:16.079 I am very happy, forty was rough. My fortieth birthday, 1388 01:06:16.119 --> 01:06:18.679 I was like, this is rough, and coming up in 1389 01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:21.719 science is I loved doing it, loved the experience, but 1390 01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:24.480 it was very stressful raising money for your lab. But 1391 01:06:24.519 --> 01:06:27.519 postdoc is a very uncertain time, a lot of uncertainty, 1392 01:06:28.039 --> 01:06:28.880 a lot of stress. 1393 01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:29.480 Yeah. 1394 01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:33.159 And now, I mean I have stressors, but I view 1395 01:06:33.159 --> 01:06:37.519 them differently. I feel completely differently about stress in general. 1396 01:06:37.639 --> 01:06:39.039 I mean, I do a lot of things, but I 1397 01:06:40.360 --> 01:06:43.480 don't think teen years, certainly not for me, or twenties 1398 01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:45.840 or thirties are the best years of your life. Yeah, 1399 01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:49.440 I can attest like it didn't suck, but it was rough. 1400 01:06:49.599 --> 01:06:51.280 I mean, there's fun parts to it, and there's a 1401 01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:53.280 lot of novelty, and you did things then that you 1402 01:06:53.280 --> 01:06:56.480 probably wouldn't do now. But I think when we talk 1403 01:06:56.519 --> 01:06:59.280 about aging, we're talking about how negative it can be 1404 01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:01.840 in all these things that can happen physically. But a 1405 01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:03.760 lot of the old adults I talk through and I've 1406 01:07:03.800 --> 01:07:06.880 interviewed for my book are saying, actually, sixty or seventy 1407 01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:07.599 was probably. 1408 01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:08.480 The best time in my life. 1409 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:08.840 Nice. 1410 01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:11.679 Yeah, that makes me feel I mean, it's a select 1411 01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:14.159 group who I'm talking to, but it's not like it's 1412 01:07:14.199 --> 01:07:17.400 the best time in terms of my aches and pains 1413 01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:19.519 or you know, sure, I wish I was forty for 1414 01:07:19.559 -->

01:07:22.639 some reasons, but those times can be very challenging and stressful. 1415 01:07:22.679 --> 01:07:25.519 So from a psychological standpoint, it's interesting to look at 1416 01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:28.559 these kind of non linear dynamics. It's not a linear decline. 1417 01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:31.639 It's not that happiness just gets better with age. There's 1418 01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:33.800 there can be this midlife dip and you know, some 1419 01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:37.639 I'm not a clinical psychologist, some people call this, you know, midlife. Well, 1420 01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:40.639 of course, there's a conflict at midlife. Well, there's really 1421 01:07:40.639 --> 01:07:43.599 conflicts at every stage. Some of the you know Ericsson's 1422 01:07:43.639 --> 01:07:46.760 work on said every decade there's a conflict, and it's 1423 01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:48.920 how you resolve it allows you to kind of move 1424 01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:51.519 on to the next stage of life. And I think, 1425 01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:54.920 you know, sometimes we don't think about midlife as much 1426 01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:57.079 as well, this is what happens when you're young, and 1427 01:07:57.079 --> 01:07:59.719 this is what happens when you're old, and it's probably 1428 01:07:59.760 --> 01:08:02.079 how you deal with what happens in the middle, which 1429 01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:03.159 allows you to age. 1430 01:08:03.199 --> 01:08:03.480 Well. 1431 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:06.280 So when I'm you know, when I talked about aging, 1432 01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:08.119 most of the older adults I talk to, I'm not 1433 01:08:08.280 --> 01:08:11.159 educating them on how to age. Well, they've they're there 1434 01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:14.599 and they're doing it. It's often middle aged people are like, 1435 01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:17.840 well I have older parents. You know, how are most 1436 01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:20.239 people when they're twenty or thirty. They're not thinking what's 1437 01:08:20.359 --> 01:08:22.960 my life can be like when I'm seventy or eighty. 1438 01:08:23.119 --> 01:08:25.560 Even now, that's hard for me to concess. Sure, Yeah, 1439 01:08:25.640 --> 01:08:28.399 I just try and do the best I can to 1440 01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:32.079 take care of myself every day so that maybe i'll 1441 01:08:32.159 --> 01:08:35.560 hit hopefully i'll hit sixty seventy feeling great. I actually 1442 01:08:35.560 --> 01:08:38.039 feel better physically now than I did in my forties 1443 01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:42.560 and thirties, but I was working so much then. You know, 1444 01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:44.800 a lot of people, I'm not boasting. It's actually probably 1445 01:08:44.840 --> 01:08:46.319 should be more of a point of shame. I don't 1446 01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:48.039 know that I recommend it for most people. I mean 1447 01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:52.560 I I worked non stop, and I don't know that 1448 01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:54.640 i'd wish that on anyone.

I think a little more 1449 01:08:54.640 --> 01:08:57.039 balance would have been healthy. Now I work a lot, 1450 01:08:57.119 --> 01:09:02.000 but I definitely take time to to meditate, to pray, 1451 01:09:02.119 --> 01:09:04.079 spend time with people in my life, Like I really 1452 01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:07.239 try to savor things a bit more. Yeah, the problem 1453 01:09:07.279 --> 01:09:09.279 with academic science, as you know, is there's always a 1454 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:13.279 deadline or revision or something. There's always something. So once 1455 01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:15.359 you realize there's always something, I think it's. 1456 01:09:15.319 --> 01:09:17.319 In a lot of professions. You know, people are very 1457 01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:20.239 driven early. They have to prove themselves. You're either you're 1458 01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:22.640 trying to survive, make money, make a name for yourself, 1459 01:09:22.680 --> 01:09:25.079 and that puts a lot of stress on you. And 1460 01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:27.720 as you get further along, you might realize maybe it's 1461 01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:29.720 not worth it, or maybe I need to backtrack, or 1462 01:09:29.720 --> 01:09:32.279 maybe there's more important things. And I think it really 1463 01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:35.239 does come down to balance. And you know, John Wood 1464 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:37.920 in the UCLA basketball coach. I got to interview him, 1465 01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:41.640 you know, he was in his nineties, and he said, 1466 01:09:41.800 --> 01:09:44.079 it really comes down to two things. And I thought, oh, 1467 01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:45.760 this is great. You know, coach wouldn't is going to 1468 01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:48.199 tell me, you know, the two things. And he thought 1469 01:09:48.239 --> 01:09:50.600 of himself as a teacher, not just a coach, So 1470 01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:53.319 he did, you know, a very effective thing. He had 1471 01:09:53.359 --> 01:09:56.119 me guess those two things. The two most important words 1472 01:09:56.119 --> 01:09:58.640 in the English language is how he said it. And 1473 01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:01.239 here I am a student and I'm thinking, gosh, he's 1474 01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:04.279 a coach, so I don't know success, teamwork, what is it? 1475 01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:07.680 And he said, you know, the most important thing is love. 1476 01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:11.199 Be around the people you love, do the things you love. 1477 01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:13.359 And you know, he. 1478 01:10:13.399 --> 01:10:15.920 Lost his wife well before he passed away. He wouldn't 1479 01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:17.840 sleep on her side of the bed. He would write 1480 01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:18.960 her a letter every month. 1481 01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:19.760 Wow. 1482 01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:22.840 You know he had report cards from his grandchildren's on 1483 01:10:22.880 --> 01:10:25.840 the on the wall right next to letters from presidents. 1484 01:10:26.079 --> 01:10:29.560 You know, so he's really surrounded by a great community, 1485 01:10:29.640 --> 01:10:32.800 former players calling his former players were by his bedside 1486 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:36.079 when he passed away. And then the second most important 1487 01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:38.520 word is something I think a lot of people struggle 1488 01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:44.199 with we're talking about his balance, and it's partly physical balance. 1489 01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:47.479 He did have a fall, you know, like we were 1490 01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:49.479 talking about, and it's interesting because he had a life 1491 01:10:49.520 --> 01:10:52.800 alert around you know, that he could press around his neck. 1492 01:10:52.840 --> 01:10:54.840 And this is why I think technology is great. Maybe 1493 01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:58.000 there's ways we can prevent falls or but he fell 1494 01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:01.720 in the middle of the night. He broke his collarbone 1495 01:11:02.199 --> 01:11:04.840 and his wrist, and he had this life alert button, 1496 01:11:05.319 --> 01:11:06.439 but he didn't press. 1497 01:11:06.199 --> 01:11:10.199 It because of pride exactly. He didn't want to bother 1498 01:11:10.279 --> 01:11:11.800 at chromosome. 1499 01:11:11.960 --> 01:11:15.199 Yeah, it's very but you know, you give people all 1500 01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:17.439 this technology and you know, and then you realize there's 1501 01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:20.000 a psychological part too as well. He waited until the 1502 01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:23.840 morning his caretaker arrived, rushed into the hospital. Thankfully he survived. 1503 01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:27.279 But that's pride, guilt, shame, didn't want to bother someone. 1504 01:11:27.720 --> 01:11:29.960 So that's the physical balance, and then I think the 1505 01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:32.079 mental balance, as he said, like you were saying, is 1506 01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:36.000 he was a very driven person, very successful with his coaching, 1507 01:11:36.079 --> 01:11:38.079 but it meant a lot of time traveling, a lot 1508 01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:41.159 of time away from his family, not focusing on the 1509 01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:44.119 things that he found incredibly important. And as he got older, 1510 01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:47.000 he felt like he could achieve more balance, you know, 1511 01:11:47.079 --> 01:11:49.680 spend more time doing the things he wanted, be around 1512 01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:52.159 the people he wanted. And I think that's a struggle 1513 01:11:52.199 --> 01:11:54.399 for a lot of people. We get really into something 1514 01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:57.000 and you know, we forget about it. You know, we're 1515 01:11:57.039 --> 01:11:59.399 having a conversation. It's hard to stand up, you know, 1516 01:12:00.159 --> 01:12:03.359 it's you know, you get focused on things. But as 1517 01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:05.720 you get older, maybe you're a little bit better at 1518

01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:07.760 finding that balance and finding that piece. 1519 01:12:08.760 --> 01:12:11.880 I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. 1520 01:12:12.680 --> 01:12:15.920 Function provides over one hundred and sixty advanced lab tests 1521 01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:18.319 to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. 1522 01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:21.359 This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your 1523 01:12:21.399 --> 01:12:25.600 hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've 1524 01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:29.439 also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. 1525 01:12:29.800 --> 01:12:32.239 Function not only provides testing of over one hundred and 1526 01:12:32.239 --> 01:12:35.159 sixty biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it 1527 01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:39.079 also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your 1528 01:12:39.119 --> 01:12:42.279 health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test 1529 01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:44.880 with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids 1530 01:12:44.920 --> 01:12:47.720 were slightly out of range. As a result I decided 1531 01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:51.439 to start supplementing with natokinase, which can naturally help reduce 1532 01:12:51.560 --> 01:12:54.520 LDL cholesterol, and it did. In a follow up test, 1533 01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:57.239 I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids 1534 01:12:57.239 --> 01:13:00.319 are now back exactly where I want them. Comprehensive lab 1535 01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:02.560 testing of the sort that Function offers is just so 1536 01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:04.800 important for health. I mean, how else are you going 1537 01:13:04.840 --> 01:13:06.800 to know what's going on under the hood. And while 1538 01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:08.920 I've been doing blood work for years, it used to 1539 01:13:08.920 --> 01:13:12.279 be time consuming, complicated and expensive. In fact, I used 1540 01:13:12.279 --> 01:13:15.000 to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get 1541 01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:17.399 this kind of data, and the data frankly we're not 1542 01:13:17.479 --> 01:13:20.760 all that good. But now with Function, it's extremely easy 1543 01:13:20.800 --> 01:13:23.560 and affordable. A Function membership is only a dollar a 1544 01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:25.760 day three hundred and sixty five dollars a year, and 1545 01:13:25.800 --> 01:13:28.119 if you think about the information it provides and the 1546 01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:30.920 health challenges it helps you avoid, and the proactive things 1547 01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:33.000 that it can do for you to enhance your health, 1548 01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:36.079 I truly look at it as a savings. To learn more, 1549 01:13:36.399 --> 01:13:39.800 visit functionhealth dot com, slash Huberman and use the code 1550 01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:42.920 Hubreman for a fifty dollars credit towards your membership. Again, 1551 01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:48.039 that's functionhealth dot com slash Huberman. Yeah. The notion of 1552 01:13:48.560 --> 01:13:52.720 having to prove to oneself or even to others that 1553 01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:55.399 one can do something that's a i'm a hallmark of 1554 01:13:55.880 --> 01:13:59.199 being younger. Yeah. I suppose some people escape that, but 1555 01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:02.800 I think most people struggle with that social comparison thing, 1556 01:14:03.479 --> 01:14:09.119 and it can be very useful as a leaver, can 1557 01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:13.439 generate a lot of hard work, great work through competition, 1558 01:14:14.359 --> 01:14:20.399 even competitions in one's own head. But eventually you realize 1559 01:14:20.439 --> 01:14:22.479 like you're the only one in this fight, you know, 1560 01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:27.279 and I don't know. This podcast has a very broad 1561 01:14:28.319 --> 01:14:32.520 audience in terms of age ranges, and so it's interesting 1562 01:14:32.600 --> 01:14:36.800 the younger crowd, let's just say thirty five and younger, 1563 01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:40.279 tend to have questions about how to pick direction, what 1564 01:14:40.720 --> 01:14:45.840 direction to go, and the older crowd generally is asking 1565 01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:48.560 about things related to keeping their memory, their health, and 1566 01:14:49.000 --> 01:14:51.800 these days asking a lot of questions about whether they 1567 01:14:51.840 --> 01:14:55.720 should revise their notions of what age appropriate physical ability 1568 01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:57.960 or mental ability should be. I think that's a big 1569 01:14:58.279 --> 01:15:03.159 shift out there right now, because you know, twenty years ago, 1570 01:15:03.199 --> 01:15:05.079 it was assumed, you know, people would hit seventy or 1571 01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:07.399 eighty and start to slow down, and you know, now 1572 01:15:07.680 --> 01:15:09.840 people are like, well, if I feel great at fifty, 1573 01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:11.399 maybe I could feel great at sixty. If I can 1574 01:15:11.439 --> 01:15:13.319 feel great at sixty, maybe I feel great at ninety. 1575 01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:16.520 You know, the possibility feels real. And I'm not talking 1576 01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:20.119 about living longer. I actually don't consider myself a longevity person. 1577 01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:22.640 Sometimes I'll get lumped there. It's like I've never actually 1578 01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:24.760 focused on that. Yes, I think it's great to live 1579 01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:27.680 as long as you can at a vibrant life. But 1580 01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:31.680 what do you think about the messaging that we could 1581 01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:34.760 go longer or could make more of our time. Do 1582 01:15:34.800 --> 01:15:37.560 you think it's net positive or do you think that's 1583 01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:41.039 creating a pressure for

people to not live into the 1584 01:15:41.680 --> 01:15:45.800 reality that hey, they're like seventy and maybe slowing down 1585 01:15:45.840 --> 01:15:48.439 and maybe telling those stories two or three times may 1586 01:15:48.560 --> 01:15:50.880 maybe they're supposed to shed wisdom and not supposed to 1587 01:15:50.920 --> 01:15:52.560 be jogging around the block. 1588 01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:56.159 Yeah, it's so interesting to see these age age related differences, 1589 01:15:56.199 --> 01:15:58.319 but also to see how that's shifting and we're certainly 1590 01:15:58.359 --> 01:15:59.159 living longer. 1591 01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:01.159 You know, for the most part, if you look. 1592 01:16:01.000 --> 01:16:03.760 At our history, and there's a variety of reasons for that, 1593 01:16:04.319 --> 01:16:06.279 but you want to make sure those years that we're 1594 01:16:06.279 --> 01:16:09.239 adding are healthy ones, because the longer you live, the 1595 01:16:09.239 --> 01:16:13.359 greater the chance of developing dementia. I think from a 1596 01:16:13.359 --> 01:16:17.359 psychological perspective, it's interesting because you know, if you ask 1597 01:16:17.439 --> 01:16:20.399 someone how old do you feel, that's very different than 1598 01:16:20.439 --> 01:16:23.000 your biological age. Let's say you didn't have access to 1599 01:16:23.039 --> 01:16:25.680 your birth your parents actually said, sorry, we can't actually 1600 01:16:25.680 --> 01:16:26.720 remember how old you are. 1601 01:16:27.479 --> 01:16:28.800 How would you figure that out? 1602 01:16:28.840 --> 01:16:32.159 And perhapsuly not your parents? Yeah, surprise, definite, I'm sure 1603 01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:35.239 they're my parents. Yeah, that's an interesting question. 1604 01:16:35.439 --> 01:16:37.600 And this is known as subjective age. And you know, 1605 01:16:37.680 --> 01:16:40.920 there's a physical feeling, there's also this mental feeling, so 1606 01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:43.119 how do we assign that? And actually, after the age 1607 01:16:43.159 --> 01:16:45.880 of forty, most people feel about twenty percent younger than 1608 01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:49.880 their actual age, and so I don't know if it's deceptive, 1609 01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:52.520 but you know, if you're seventy, you know, we just 1610 01:16:52.560 --> 01:16:55.159 turned fifty, and I'm like, wow, that sounds so cool, 1611 01:16:56.319 --> 01:16:59.439 because I feel about forty forty seemed more recent. But yeah, 1612 01:16:59.479 --> 01:17:01.920 I can see things. But as you get further along, 1613 01:17:01.960 --> 01:17:03.800 it's like, gosh, I'm in this age group. Am I 1614 01:17:03.800 --> 01:17:06.119 supposed to do this now or behave like that? But 1615 01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.199 my parents are different than I was, and so I 1616 01:17:09.199 --> 01:17:12.920 think it's interesting. It's also interesting that that subjective age 1617 01:17:12.960 --> 01:17:15.279 is a better predictor of how

long you'll live than 1618 01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:16.640 your biological age. 1619 01:17:17.159 --> 01:17:17.800 Fascinating. 1620 01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:18.199 Yeah. 1621 01:17:18.199 --> 01:17:20.800 So you know, you go to the doctor and you're told, like, so, 1622 01:17:21.079 --> 01:17:23.640 give me how old are you? Well that all of 1623 01:17:23.680 --> 01:17:25.680 a sudden it's like, well, I guess I should behave 1624 01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:27.840 like a seventy five year old or an eighty year old. 1625 01:17:28.000 --> 01:17:29.239 You're not going to the doctor is not going to 1626 01:17:29.279 --> 01:17:31.720 say how old do you feel? And in some ways 1627 01:17:31.720 --> 01:17:33.800 people do feel their age. I certainly feel my age 1628 01:17:33.800 --> 01:17:35.880 when I have an injury or when I'm like I'm tired, 1629 01:17:36.119 --> 01:17:37.720 or why am I again I'm at five in the 1630 01:17:37.760 --> 01:17:40.239 morning now when I can't get back to sleep. But 1631 01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:42.800 there's sometimes where it's like, no, I feel young. And 1632 01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.239 I'm not saying I'm running marathons, but I know when 1633 01:17:45.239 --> 01:17:48.239 I coach my son's baseball team, I feel young. I mean, 1634 01:17:48.279 --> 01:17:50.079 I feel old in some ways, but I'm like, oh, 1635 01:17:50.079 --> 01:17:51.960 I remember how much fun this can be, and it's 1636 01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:54.680 nice to be around kids, and you know, when I'm 1637 01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:56.560 on a college campus, I'm like, this is nice to 1638 01:17:56.600 --> 01:17:58.640 be around, you know, younger people, and I'm learning a 1639 01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:01.760 lot from younger group, and I'm seeing how they're confused 1640 01:18:01.840 --> 01:18:04.479 in different ways. So I think there's a lot of 1641 01:18:04.520 --> 01:18:07.920 age related stereotypes that are sometimes accurate, but we don't 1642 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:11.279 need to necessarily, you know, subscribe to them at all times. 1643 01:18:11.319 --> 01:18:13.920 And in some ways you can have also And this 1644 01:18:13.960 --> 01:18:16.119 is partly the motivation for my book, kind of like 1645 01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:20.039 mentors for aging. And I think when I ask my class, 1646 01:18:20.159 --> 01:18:22.000 who are some people that you really look up to 1647 01:18:22.039 --> 01:18:25.520 who've aged well or successful aging, A lot of it 1648 01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:28.000 comes down to like a grandparent or a parent, or 1649 01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:28.720 an aunt. 1650 01:18:28.520 --> 01:18:29.119 Or an uncle. 1651 01:18:29.720 --> 01:18:32.640 And that's really interesting because you share like some genetic 1652 01:18:32.640 --> 01:18:35.439 overlap with them, but you know, the stories, the reasons 1653 01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:38.439 are really impressive, and not that they're running marathons, but like, 1654 01:18:38.520 --> 01:18:42.239 oh we have this recipe, or every holiday they do this, 1655 01:18:42.359 --> 01:18:45.039 or they're still walking and doing this, and sometimes it's 1656 01:18:45.039 --> 01:18:49.560 a public figure, but having these role models is really important, 1657 01:18:49.560 --> 01:18:52.399 and oftentimes it is a parent. So probably my favorite 1658 01:18:52.399 --> 01:18:56.359 podcast that I've watched recently yours is with Your Father, right, 1659 01:18:56.399 --> 01:18:59.439 because you can see this dynamic and you can see like, gosh, 1660 01:18:59.520 --> 01:19:01.600 it's this, this is an older person, This is the 1661 01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:04.159 younger version, but they're different in so many ways and 1662 01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:06.880 kind of you know, some people can retire and some 1663 01:19:06.920 --> 01:19:10.279 people clearly can't, and so I don't think there's any 1664 01:19:10.359 --> 01:19:12.800 secret to successful age and like you have to do 1665 01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:14.760 this or that. But there's certainly some people, and I've 1666 01:19:14.800 --> 01:19:17.840 seen in my family who can't retire or they have 1667 01:19:17.880 --> 01:19:18.800 a career shift. 1668 01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:19.039 You know. 1669 01:19:19.079 --> 01:19:21.920 I saw my dad go from being a theoretical physics 1670 01:19:22.079 --> 01:19:25.439 professor to being an editor of a literary arts journal, 1671 01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:27.760 and it's like such a shift, but I think it 1672 01:19:27.880 --> 01:19:30.479 revived him and allowed him to kind of like you've 1673 01:19:30.520 --> 01:19:33.760 gone from being a professor to kind of more public outreach, 1674 01:19:34.439 --> 01:19:36.920 and that keeps people going, and that can happen again 1675 01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:40.279 at sixty or seventy, and so I hope you know 1676 01:19:40.319 --> 01:19:43.079 there's not this. You know, there's certainly age discrimination. You're 1677 01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:44.840 not going to hire a seventy year old to run 1678 01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.960 your IT department. But I think there are, you know, 1679 01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:51.159 things that older adults can and want to do that 1680 01:19:51.239 --> 01:19:53.319 will kind of lead to this sense of purpose, which 1681 01:19:53.359 --> 01:19:54.880 is really important as you get older. 1682 01:19:55.479 --> 01:19:58.640 Do you map out your future? I meant, do you 1683 01:19:58.720 --> 01:20:02.720 have like a three year a five year plan? I 1684 01:20:02.760 --> 01:20:05.079 find that academics tend to operate on the three to 1685 01:20:05.119 --> 01:20:08.159 five year plan because grants generally are somewhere between three 1686 01:20:08.279 --> 01:20:11.600 and five years. That's pretty much all we can reasonably 1687 01:20:11.640 --> 01:20:14.159 predict about where we're going to go with our ideas, 1688 01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:18.760 update as we discover things and so on. But do 1689 01:20:18.840 -->

01:20:23.159 you ever recall having a plan currently? Do you plan 1690 01:20:23.319 --> 01:20:25.520 like where you're going? This is just really yea, But 1691 01:20:25.600 --> 01:20:28.560 as a as a template for people to ask themselves 1692 01:20:28.600 --> 01:20:30.760 the same question, I don't think I was ever sat 1693 01:20:30.760 --> 01:20:33.479 down and said, listen, you want to focus on day 1694 01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:35.079 to day, but you got to have a plan, and 1695 01:20:35.119 --> 01:20:38.479 the plan should be put the horizon at three years 1696 01:20:38.920 --> 01:20:40.800 or five years. It just I sort of defaulted to 1697 01:20:40.840 --> 01:20:43.880 that because of academics. Yeah, and it's very hard for 1698 01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:45.359 me to think past five years. 1699 01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:47.880 I think people often will say in business, to the 1700 01:20:47.960 --> 01:20:50.079 plan you have, And I think plans are important because 1701 01:20:50.079 --> 01:20:51.760 they can motivate you. And you know, when I first 1702 01:20:51.800 --> 01:20:54.319 got this job at UCLA, I was thrilled to leave 1703 01:20:54.359 --> 01:20:57.239 the cold weather of Toronto and live on the West coast. 1704 01:20:57.239 --> 01:20:59.720 But I also said, you know, it doesn't work out, 1705 01:21:00.239 --> 01:21:02.159 let's see in three to five years. So I don't 1706 01:21:02.199 --> 01:21:03.960 think I had this specific plan of I have to 1707 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:06.439 do this, but I also had a plan like, hey, 1708 01:21:06.439 --> 01:21:09.079 I'd love to write a book that is accessible and 1709 01:21:09.159 --> 01:21:13.039 can kind of capture the lessons I've learned. And I 1710 01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:15.039 didn't put a timeline on that. But when I first 1711 01:21:15.119 --> 01:21:17.079 met my wife, I told her I was really interested 1712 01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:20.000 in doing this, and she was very encouraging, and you know, 1713 01:21:20.119 --> 01:21:22.399 ten years later that book finally comes out. So I 1714 01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:25.680 think when you articulate plans, it's definitely research saying that 1715 01:21:25.720 --> 01:21:29.119 you can realize them, and when other people are thinking 1716 01:21:29.319 --> 01:21:32.520 that's something you can or should do, I think it's beneficial. 1717 01:21:32.600 --> 01:21:35.840 But yeah, in the academic world there can be pressures 1718 01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:38.039 to get grants and publish, but I think that can 1719 01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:41.560 also hamper some creative outputs. I don't have a plan 1720 01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:43.119 of like in three to five years, I need to 1721 01:21:43.159 --> 01:21:44.760 do this and this, and it should be nice to 1722 01:21:44.760 --> 01:21:47.600 get another grant. But maybe if you don't have a grant, 1723 01:21:47.640 --> 01:21:51.079 you can have a little more freedom and flexibility. I'm 1724 01:21:51.119 --> 01:21:53.439 really interested in how you know. It's a concern now 1725 01:21:53.439 --> 01:21:56.119 with AI how people are subjected to a lot of 1726 01:21:56.119 --> 01:21:58.760 information and a lot of this can be used for 1727 01:21:58.920 --> 01:22:02.800 scams and fraud and so I'm interested in how older 1728 01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:06.000 adults can be kind of, you know, aware of these 1729 01:22:06.039 --> 01:22:09.880 scams that can take you know, can be devastating, and 1730 01:22:09.920 --> 01:22:12.000 how we can make kind of the world better for 1731 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:14.520 older adults. And when I say older, it's like, you know, 1732 01:22:14.600 --> 01:22:17.199 we're not that far away from you know, why why 1733 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:20.079 can that self driving car be so appealing to a 1734 01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:22.680 younger person but not an older person. And if we 1735 01:22:22.720 --> 01:22:25.600 can make you know, technology more accessible to older people, 1736 01:22:25.640 --> 01:22:28.119 that can certainly help. And I think there's simple ways 1737 01:22:28.159 --> 01:22:30.560 to do it. So it starts with attitudes about you know, 1738 01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:32.680 how do I engage with this, will it work? Will 1739 01:22:32.720 --> 01:22:35.239 I break it? Or the younger people will just they 1740 01:22:35.239 --> 01:22:37.800 get a new iPhone and they don't. There's no instruction manual. 1741 01:22:37.800 --> 01:22:41.079 They're just playing around with it. So I'm interested in that. 1742 01:22:41.119 --> 01:22:44.279 I don't think that has like a publication that I'm 1743 01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:47.159 going to get out of it. And maybe there's a grant, 1744 01:22:47.239 --> 01:22:50.760 maybe there's consulting, but I think it's having a broader 1745 01:22:50.920 --> 01:22:54.039 kind of approach might be beneficial. So these are more 1746 01:22:54.079 --> 01:22:56.880 abstract goals and hopefully some of them can be realized, 1747 01:22:57.399 --> 01:22:59.319 but it's not as tied to like you know, when 1748 01:22:59.319 --> 01:23:02.079 I was younger, Yeah, I wanted to get tenure at UCLA, right. 1749 01:23:02.119 --> 01:23:04.039 I was happy to have children and have a house 1750 01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:07.119 where we can be, you know, centrally located without a 1751 01:23:07.159 --> 01:23:09.880 long commute. So I think those were the practical goals. 1752 01:23:10.359 --> 01:23:12.600 But I think as I get older, I feel fortunate 1753 01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:15.039 that I've achieved some of these goals that make my 1754 01:23:15.079 --> 01:23:17.920 life more comfortable. But there's still things out there that 1755 01:23:18.039 --> 01:23:20.039 I'm like, are we really ever going to know how 1756 01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:24.119 memory works? Maybe maybe not, but maybe we can make 1757 01:23:24.199 --> 01:23:26.840 things easier to use, or now that we know memory 1758 01:23:26.880 --> 01:23:28.680 sort of works this

way, maybe we can make this 1759 01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:31.439 technology deared to help us in some meaningful way. 1760 01:23:32.359 --> 01:23:35.239 Well, comment and then a question. My comment is, if 1761 01:23:35.279 --> 01:23:40.159 anyone needs self driving cars, it's older folks, right. I mean, 1762 01:23:40.439 --> 01:23:44.199 if you look at the accident data, look at the 1763 01:23:44.279 --> 01:23:47.039 visual data. I mean, there are people who are I 1764 01:23:47.039 --> 01:23:49.520 don't want to say legally blind, but their peripheral vision 1765 01:23:49.600 --> 01:23:52.840 is really lousy and they're driving, and most of driving 1766 01:23:52.960 --> 01:23:57.560 is peripheral vision, so, you know, for everybody's sake, But 1767 01:23:57.600 --> 01:24:00.159 of course very young people with new licenses there all. 1768 01:24:00.239 --> 01:24:04.640 You know, it's it's not a you know, a linear 1769 01:24:04.680 --> 01:24:08.960 distribution of accidents by age. It's uh, it's a U 1770 01:24:09.079 --> 01:24:14.119 shaped function. But the the other thing is nested in 1771 01:24:14.159 --> 01:24:16.760 my question about whether you set goals is the question 1772 01:24:16.840 --> 01:24:22.520 of whether setting goals helps us stay alive. You know, 1773 01:24:22.600 --> 01:24:26.319 I covered before some of the data on these superagers, 1774 01:24:26.760 --> 01:24:29.359 more of the neuroscience to say interiormid singulate cortex, which 1775 01:24:29.359 --> 01:24:34.439 seems to maintain or increase volume as superagers age and 1776 01:24:34.479 --> 01:24:37.520 they hold on to their memory, et cetera. And what 1777 01:24:37.520 --> 01:24:42.800 we understand of that structure, it's involved in pushing into friction, 1778 01:24:43.760 --> 01:24:46.880 pushing oneself to do something that's hard or not desirable 1779 01:24:46.920 --> 01:24:48.359 for oneself. It seems to come up on more and 1780 01:24:48.399 --> 01:24:50.760 more episodes of the podcast, and I think I teaching 1781 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:53.399 her anatomy to medical students. When I started teaching your anatomy, 1782 01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:56.319 we didn't know what the antwermid singulate cortex does. But 1783 01:24:56.600 --> 01:24:59.399 my colleague Joe Parvezi probed it with electrodes in humans, 1784 01:24:59.399 --> 01:25:03.800 and every single one they got stimulated, they'd say, feels 1785 01:25:03.800 --> 01:25:05.680 like a big storm is coming. There's a challenge. I 1786 01:25:05.720 --> 01:25:07.800 want to lean into it. They would kind of come 1787 01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:09.960 up in their chair. They you know, they're not I mean, 1788 01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:11.840 they're in a halo they're getting the surgery, so but 1789 01:25:11.880 --> 01:25:15.520 they would get physically and mentally activated like I'm gonna 1790 01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:18.720 I can take this, i can do this. And it's 1791 01:25:18.800 --> 01:25:21.000 very clear that that's the brain structure that grows. And 1792 01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:24.399 so I feel like going after a goal, having goals, 1793 01:25:24.399 --> 01:25:27.279 something to look forward to. I wonder whether or not 1794 01:25:27.359 --> 01:25:34.239 this is the basic evolutionarily, you know, hardwired circuitry for 1795 01:25:35.199 --> 01:25:38.079 if you're striving means you're trying to get someplace. If 1796 01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:40.239 you're trying to get someplace, there's a concept of a future. 1797 01:25:40.279 --> 01:25:42.840 If there's a concept of a future, well then you 1798 01:25:42.920 --> 01:25:45.920 plan to be there or you want to leave something behind. 1799 01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:50.279 But that it might activate literally this kind of will 1800 01:25:50.399 --> 01:25:52.800 to live. And I want to sound mystical here, but 1801 01:25:52.880 --> 01:25:55.760 kind of at a cellular level, because when people don't 1802 01:25:55.800 --> 01:26:00.279 have plans, then there's really no I mean, you could 1803 01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:03.119 just enjoy the smell of the roses, but that becomes 1804 01:26:03.119 --> 01:26:05.439 a bit of a closed loop. I don't know many people, 1805 01:26:05.720 --> 01:26:08.560 maybe monks or something, who are really tapped into something 1806 01:26:08.560 --> 01:26:10.840 that just that they just want to live in the 1807 01:26:11.159 --> 01:26:14.239 bliss of the moment constantly. A lot of life is 1808 01:26:14.279 --> 01:26:17.039 about what comes next and trying to make that thing happen. 1809 01:26:17.159 --> 01:26:19.640 I mean, it's so interesting to look at cellular and 1810 01:26:19.680 --> 01:26:23.079 then anterior cingulate and then super agers and then sense 1811 01:26:23.079 --> 01:26:25.079 of purpose if you look at all those different levels, 1812 01:26:25.079 --> 01:26:27.520 and then what we look at in a Western culture 1813 01:26:27.560 --> 01:26:30.600 too is very different than some cultures that age much 1814 01:26:30.680 --> 01:26:33.600 better than Western cultures. And maybe there's lessons to be 1815 01:26:33.680 --> 01:26:35.560 learned there, because you know, a lot of it is, 1816 01:26:35.560 --> 01:26:37.880 like you're saying, goal setting and motivation, but the goal 1817 01:26:37.960 --> 01:26:39.920 is not just to live forever. It's to make the 1818 01:26:39.960 --> 01:26:42.640 most of these moments and have this sense of purpose. 1819 01:26:42.680 --> 01:26:44.319 And a lot of older adults do want to have 1820 01:26:44.399 --> 01:26:47.720 this connection to younger people, or connection to a hobby 1821 01:26:47.800 --> 01:26:50.520 or an interest, and it's not as professionally driven as 1822 01:26:50.800 --> 01:26:53.840 is in kind of midlife. And I think the super 1823 01:26:53.880 --> 01:26:56.439 ages is really interesting because you know, I've read about 1824 01:26:56.479 --> 01:26:59.239 that and I've seen this, and these are not people 1825 01:26:59.279 -->

01:27:01.560 who said, I want to live forever and I'm going 1826 01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:04.119 to you know that that's not their goal. And a 1827 01:27:04.159 --> 01:27:05.880 lot of them are not people who are like I 1828 01:27:05.960 --> 01:27:08.920 went to the gym four times a week. They built 1829 01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:11.640 into their you know, and it's the same with blue zones. 1830 01:27:11.680 --> 01:27:14.640 It's built into their daily life of they eat well, 1831 01:27:14.680 --> 01:27:16.880 because that's the food that you know they enjoy and 1832 01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:19.520 that they can find they exercise not from going to 1833 01:27:19.560 --> 01:27:22.640 the gym, but from having to walk uphill or on 1834 01:27:22.800 --> 01:27:26.359 uneven surfaces. So I think, I don't want to say 1835 01:27:26.399 --> 01:27:30.479 it's an American focus on goals and motivation and biohacking 1836 01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:32.680 and longevity, but if you can build this into your 1837 01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:35.520 daily life, it's so much easier, right, and then it 1838 01:27:35.600 --> 01:27:37.640 just becomes you know. I saw my father bike to 1839 01:27:37.720 --> 01:27:39.720 work every day. In fact, he wouldn't even call it 1840 01:27:39.800 --> 01:27:41.800 work because he didn't want to make it think like 1841 01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:42.399 it was work. 1842 01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:44.119 And I don't know why. 1843 01:27:44.439 --> 01:27:46.359 I bike to work too in Los Angeles, which is 1844 01:27:46.359 --> 01:27:48.680 probably not the best thing to do, but I've been 1845 01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:50.439 able to set up my life that I bike two 1846 01:27:50.439 --> 01:27:53.920 miles uphill to work and then two miles downhill is 1847 01:27:53.960 --> 01:27:56.760 probably sometimes it's the best time of my day. Sometimes 1848 01:27:56.800 --> 01:27:59.119 it's one of the best ideas come to me. I 1849 01:27:59.159 --> 01:28:01.840 also have to be vigil you know, just the only 1850 01:28:01.880 --> 01:28:03.359 thing you know, I do wear a. 1851 01:28:03.319 --> 01:28:06.560 Helmet about you today. But I feel like something that's 1852 01:28:06.600 --> 01:28:09.520 coming out where I'm thinking just I just having lived 1853 01:28:09.560 --> 01:28:13.439 in La a while, it's just doors shars opening that's just. 1854 01:28:14.000 --> 01:28:16.600 Other cities too. Right in Toronto it's even worse, you know. 1855 01:28:17.239 --> 01:28:19.680 But I think with the super agers it's also resilience. 1856 01:28:19.760 --> 01:28:21.920 And these are people when you look at their lives, 1857 01:28:22.359 --> 01:28:25.520 sometimes you know they've had you know, easier lives, and 1858 01:28:25.560 --> 01:28:28.000 that can be beneficial in some ways, you know, having 1859 01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:31.359 wealth and health, but often there's a lot of resilience. 1860 01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:33.720 You know, you bounced back. You saw this during COVID. 1861

01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:35.760 We at first thought, oh, COVID is going to be 1862 01:28:35.880 --> 01:28:38.520 terrible for older people, right, because they're going to be 1863 01:28:38.520 --> 01:28:41.880 socially isolated, they don't know how to use technology, and 1864 01:28:42.159 --> 01:28:44.920 there's certainly reasons why older adults could be more vulnerable. 1865 01:28:45.439 --> 01:28:47.920 But what we found, at least at the psychological level, 1866 01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:50.319 we did some of this research, older adults were much 1867 01:28:50.359 --> 01:28:53.279 more resilient than younger adults. And I think we've learned 1868 01:28:53.319 --> 01:28:55.760 younger adults went through a lot of difficult times being 1869 01:28:55.800 --> 01:28:59.960 socially isolated, being through probably their first major kind of say, 1870 01:29:00.000 --> 01:29:03.000 situation where they can't behave the way they're normally doing it. 1871 01:29:03.159 --> 01:29:05.920 And the older adults were the ones who are like, eh, 1872 01:29:06.079 --> 01:29:10.079 I've lived through X Y and Z war's financial meltdowns. 1873 01:29:10.239 --> 01:29:14.239 You know, changes in family structure, deaths of close people, 1874 01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:18.600 and older adults seem to show a lot more resilience here. 1875 01:29:18.720 --> 01:29:22.319 And you know, when I've interviewed people for this book, 1876 01:29:22.319 --> 01:29:24.600 it's sometimes the most interesting people you know, lived through 1877 01:29:24.640 --> 01:29:27.960 the Holocaust who are like I appreciate every day, you know. 1878 01:29:28.199 --> 01:29:31.039 I think the best advice I got from one person 1879 01:29:31.159 --> 01:29:34.960 was like, when you're going upper downstairs, think I'm going 1880 01:29:35.039 --> 01:29:39.039 upper downstairs. They're very present, right, they know if I'm 1881 01:29:39.039 --> 01:29:42.600 mind wandering or doing something else, something can happen. So 1882 01:29:42.640 --> 01:29:44.880 maybe I shouldn't be mind wandering on my bike ride. 1883 01:29:44.880 --> 01:29:46.039 I should be like, that's my head. 1884 01:29:46.079 --> 01:29:52.079 Well, but you're considerably younger and clearly you're mentally aware 1885 01:29:52.199 --> 01:29:55.039 to be able to use that time of a friend. 1886 01:29:55.199 --> 01:29:57.359 He was actually a guest on this podcast. His name 1887 01:29:57.399 --> 01:30:00.760 is Ryan Swave. He's a trauma therapists treats addiction in 1888 01:30:00.800 --> 01:30:05.560 a number of people. He said, occasionally he'll get a 1889 01:30:05.720 --> 01:30:12.239 patient who was suicidal or tried to attempt suicide, you know, 1890 01:30:12.319 --> 01:30:15.520 or who attempted suicide excuse me, because of a breakup, 1891 01:30:16.199 --> 01:30:20.880 like in high school or in their twenties. And you know, 1892 01:30:20.920 --> 01:30:22.880 he said, at first, when when he would get these 1893 01:30:22.920 --> 01:30:24.920 people coming through his clinic. He would think like, listen, 1894 01:30:24.960 --> 01:30:26.840 you want to sit this person down and just say, 1895 01:30:27.039 --> 01:30:29.239 look like you got your whole life out of you, 1896 01:30:29.319 --> 01:30:31.119 that you're going to have other opportunities. There are other 1897 01:30:31.239 --> 01:30:33.399 fish in the sea. But he quickly came to realize 1898 01:30:33.439 --> 01:30:37.039 that to these what you know by all arguments are 1899 01:30:37.079 --> 01:30:42.479 still like kids young adults. To them, it feels like 1900 01:30:42.520 --> 01:30:44.720 a loss of the entire future because they haven't had 1901 01:30:44.760 --> 01:30:47.119 that future yet. And when he started approaching it through 1902 01:30:47.159 --> 01:30:49.439 that lens, he was able to be more effective clinically 1903 01:30:50.199 --> 01:30:53.000 to just really acknowledge like, yeah, it really feels like 1904 01:30:53.079 --> 01:30:55.680 the whole world is coming to an end. They just 1905 01:30:55.720 --> 01:30:58.840 don't have the perspective of having had some relationship challenges 1906 01:30:58.880 --> 01:31:01.520 and found someone else, and so it really feels like 1907 01:31:01.560 --> 01:31:05.079 their whole life is over. Yeah, because their whole life 1908 01:31:05.159 --> 01:31:07.840 is up to that point. It's interesting to think, you know. 1909 01:31:07.880 --> 01:31:09.960 And I remember thinking like, oh, yeah, that makes total 1910 01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:12.279 sense when you say it. I mean obviously not the suicidality. 1911 01:31:12.560 --> 01:31:14.520 You know, one hopes that wouldn't be where people would 1912 01:31:14.520 --> 01:31:17.800 go with a breakup. But as we get older, yeah, 1913 01:31:17.800 --> 01:31:21.960 we can integrate over you know, Oh, I've been had 1914 01:31:21.960 --> 01:31:24.119 my ups, I've had my downs. You know, I'm still here. 1915 01:31:24.119 --> 01:31:26.560 I'm hard to kill. You know, as I sometimes tell myself, 1916 01:31:26.600 --> 01:31:28.000 I go, I have had some ups and downs and 1917 01:31:28.560 --> 01:31:31.439 I'm taking, you know, some heat. I just go, Okay, well, 1918 01:31:31.560 --> 01:31:33.960 I know one thing is I'm hard to kill. Yeah, 1919 01:31:34.000 --> 01:31:36.640 you know, I'm not under resilient exactly. Then you go, Okay, 1920 01:31:36.680 --> 01:31:39.039 we're cool, Like what did I learn. I'm just gonna 1921 01:31:39.039 --> 01:31:41.479 apply the same principles here again, and you know, and 1922 01:31:41.520 --> 01:31:43.720 then ten years later you go, I'm still here. 1923 01:31:43.840 --> 01:31:45.479 Yeah. I mean, it's just too bad. You have to. 1924 01:31:45.520 --> 01:31:46.520 I mean, in some ways you have. 1925 01:31:46.479 --> 01:31:50.079 To go through those struggles to realize that I'm still here, 1926 01:31:50.279 --> 01:31:53.439 or in retrospect it was bad, but now I'm onto 1927 01:31:53.439 --> 01:31:54.720

something else, and. 1928 01:31:54.640 --> 01:31:56.640 Or in some cases it's the best parts of life. 1929 01:31:56.720 --> 01:31:59.239 This I don't understand. And maybe this isn't more memory 1930 01:32:00.319 --> 01:32:04.479 disruption than it is accurate experience, whatever that is. But 1931 01:32:05.239 --> 01:32:09.840 I feel like our emotional selves integrate it in the 1932 01:32:09.880 --> 01:32:12.840 way that we compare, like things really really sucked in 1933 01:32:12.960 --> 01:32:16.319 a moment, which makes the moments afterwards that just don't 1934 01:32:16.319 --> 01:32:18.960 suck a little bit so much better. Yeah, there's some 1935 01:32:19.039 --> 01:32:22.760 adaptation or habituation or whatever, and then you look back 1936 01:32:22.760 --> 01:32:25.399 and you know, like, things are so good because things 1937 01:32:25.399 --> 01:32:28.000 don't completely suck, which is a very different perspective than 1938 01:32:28.039 --> 01:32:29.800 I need things to be, so you know, I need 1939 01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:31.520 a bunch of stuff. It's maybe it's just the absence 1940 01:32:31.520 --> 01:32:33.000 of suck and you can really savor that. 1941 01:32:33.159 --> 01:32:35.720 No. I think there's a memory component to that as well. 1942 01:32:35.800 --> 01:32:37.479 And you know, some people have studied this, looking at 1943 01:32:37.479 --> 01:32:40.319 what's called the positivity bias, that as you get older, 1944 01:32:40.680 --> 01:32:43.800 you're more likely to focus on positive things, positive information, 1945 01:32:43.960 --> 01:32:46.920 positive events, but when you're younger, you're more likely to 1946 01:32:46.960 --> 01:32:50.560 focus on negative things. And that might be for survival, 1947 01:32:51.279 --> 01:32:54.279 it might not benefit your mental health. But as you say, 1948 01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:56.199 you know, these are big events that happen when you're 1949 01:32:56.239 --> 01:32:58.159 twenty twenty five and you're like, this is horrible. How 1950 01:32:58.159 --> 01:33:01.000 I'm ever going to get through this? Well, people do 1951 01:33:01.119 --> 01:33:03.680 look at all these seventy eighty year olds who've gone 1952 01:33:03.680 --> 01:33:06.920 through breakups and horrible things that have happened. 1953 01:33:06.640 --> 01:33:10.279 Mancial losses, and about people in the tech and business world, 1954 01:33:10.319 --> 01:33:13.520 they're like, went from so high to so low and 1955 01:33:13.560 --> 01:33:16.039 then back again, and you just go, oh my, most 1956 01:33:16.079 --> 01:33:18.399 people would just be devastated, and they're like, well, this 1957 01:33:18.439 --> 01:33:19.039 is the rhythm. 1958 01:33:19.319 --> 01:33:20.560 Yeah, and it's tough. 1959 01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:23.399 But I think as we get older, you know, we 1960 01:33:23.479 --> 01:33:25.960 might focus more on the positive things to enhance our mood, 1961 01:33:26.039 --> 01:33:28.119 and maybe that's what leads

to this kind of uptick 1962 01:33:28.119 --> 01:33:30.359 and happiness as we get older. It's not just rose 1963 01:33:30.399 --> 01:33:32.840 colored glasses, but it's also saying, you know, I'm going 1964 01:33:32.880 --> 01:33:36.159 to focus on the things that are positive or be 1965 01:33:36.239 --> 01:33:38.039 around the people that make me feel good. 1966 01:33:38.079 --> 01:33:39.920 I've also heard a lot of older and also. 1967 01:33:39.720 --> 01:33:41.760 Say, you know, as I get older, I just don't 1968 01:33:41.800 --> 01:33:43.760 have time for that anymore. You know, I don't want 1969 01:33:43.800 --> 01:33:46.439 to focus on those negative things or talking to people 1970 01:33:46.439 --> 01:33:49.199 who bring me down. But when we're young, you know, 1971 01:33:49.319 --> 01:33:52.640 we're all around different people and you know, might complain 1972 01:33:52.680 --> 01:33:55.159 about things, and maybe that's beneficial so you can see 1973 01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:58.640 the bad things and rise above that. But again, it's 1974 01:33:58.680 --> 01:34:01.239 interesting to see these nonlinear changes that, you know, and 1975 01:34:01.439 --> 01:34:04.680 I think there is definitely a memory component, and getting 1976 01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:06.960 back to that white older adults tell the same stories 1977 01:34:07.039 --> 01:34:10.319 several times. Well, you know, sometimes it's a negative story, 1978 01:34:10.399 --> 01:34:12.199 like I had to walk this far to school, but 1979 01:34:12.279 --> 01:34:14.840 it usually has a positive spin to it, and so 1980 01:34:14.960 --> 01:34:18.279 maybe we do this is because we have this positivity 1981 01:34:18.279 --> 01:34:21.479 bias or we want to relay this positive information kind 1982 01:34:21.520 --> 01:34:23.640 of to wash out some of the negative things that 1983 01:34:24.000 --> 01:34:26.920 probably happened. You know, some of the happier older adults 1984 01:34:26.960 --> 01:34:29.199 I spent time with in South Florida lived through some 1985 01:34:29.279 --> 01:34:33.560 of the worst times in Eastern Europe. Let's say, I'm like, 1986 01:34:33.640 --> 01:34:37.840 how is this possible? And it's you know, their brain 1987 01:34:37.960 --> 01:34:40.279 changes in ways that might make them look like they're 1988 01:34:40.279 --> 01:34:42.760 not as sharp as they used to be, but they're 1989 01:34:42.760 --> 01:34:45.640 telling jokes, they're less inhibited. I learned some of the 1990 01:34:45.720 --> 01:34:49.239 dirtiest jokes from these individuals, and I think that these 1991 01:34:49.279 --> 01:34:51.439 people are really interesting to talk to. And you know, 1992 01:34:51.680 --> 01:34:55.279 I love teaching at UCLA and being around students, but 1993 01:34:55.359 --> 01:34:57.600 it's very different than talking to older adults. And every 1994 01:34:57.600 --> 01:34:59.880 once in a while, we have this Senior scholars program 1995 01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:04.319 that you know,

allows older adults to take these undergraduate classes, 1996 01:35:04.439 --> 01:35:06.600 and to me, that's probably the most enriching thing. I 1997 01:35:06.640 --> 01:35:09.359 teach a class on the psychology of aging and here 1998 01:35:09.560 --> 01:35:12.199 in the classroom there's four older adults. I mean, this 1999 01:35:12.279 --> 01:35:15.760 is a case study. And this year several of them 2000 01:35:15.760 --> 01:35:17.840 were therapists, and like, this is you know, they had 2001 01:35:17.880 --> 01:35:20.399 a lot of information to share. But they're even told 2002 01:35:20.439 --> 01:35:22.640 in the part of it is that they're not supposed 2003 01:35:22.680 --> 01:35:25.880 to ask questions, and I thought that's so strange. In 2004 01:35:25.920 --> 01:35:27.920 my class, I want them, you know, I assume if 2005 01:35:27.920 --> 01:35:30.960 they're in astronomy or art history, they could be asking 2006 01:35:31.000 --> 01:35:33.800 tons of questions. But I think this is such a 2007 01:35:33.840 --> 01:35:36.920 great way to have this kind of intergenerational component and 2008 01:35:37.000 --> 01:35:38.479 a lot of the students, you know, I tell the 2009 01:35:38.520 --> 01:35:40.159 students I have two tests, but I don't have a 2010 01:35:40.199 --> 01:35:42.960 final exam, and I tell them the final exam is the. 2011 01:35:42.880 --> 01:35:43.640 Test of life. 2012 01:35:44.520 --> 01:35:46.159 I know it sounds a little, you know, kind of 2013 01:35:46.359 --> 01:35:49.199 corny or hope, but I'm like, everything you learned about aging, 2014 01:35:49.239 --> 01:35:51.319 you're hopefully going to use in the future. Either your 2015 01:35:51.359 --> 01:35:53.680 parents might not be relevant when you're twenty, you're not 2016 01:35:53.720 --> 01:35:56.319 thinking about it. But it was the older adults in 2017 01:35:56.359 --> 01:35:58.600 the class that they often said were you know, I 2018 01:35:58.680 --> 01:36:00.520 like to think I'm a good professor, but they learn 2019 01:36:00.560 --> 01:36:03.840 the most from these older adults, and so I think 2020 01:36:03.880 --> 01:36:08.479 having more of this intergenerational interaction is really important. And 2021 01:36:08.520 --> 01:36:11.720 in different cultures that's built into the community. In Western 2022 01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:14.560 culture not so much. I mean, some people grow up 2023 01:36:14.560 --> 01:36:18.880 with their grandparents in the same household. I didn't, but 2024 01:36:19.159 --> 01:36:21.319 at times I did have with my grandparents were very 2025 01:36:21.359 --> 01:36:24.880 informative and you know, you share genetic overlap with these individuals. 2026 01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:27.520 Yet they also have wisdom and knowledge, some that is dated, 2027 01:36:27.600 --> 01:36:30.319 but I think that can be very beneficial being around 2028 01:36:30.359 --> 01:36:31.039 older adults. 2029 01:36:31.720 --> 01:36:35.199 I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Lingo. 2030 01:36:35.520 --> 01:36:38.560 Lingo is an everyday wearable that tracks your glucose twenty 2031 01:36:38.600 --> 01:36:41.720 four to seven. Glucose drives a lot of key processes 2032 01:36:41.800 --> 01:36:45.439 that support energy, body composition, and long term health. When 2033 01:36:45.479 --> 01:36:48.520 glucose is constantly spiking and crashing, that's where we can 2034 01:36:48.560 --> 01:36:51.560 start to see metabolic dysfunction, and over time that can 2035 01:36:51.600 --> 01:36:55.039 even progress to pre diabetes. Right now, about one hundred 2036 01:36:55.039 --> 01:36:58.199 and fifteen million adults in the US have pre diabetes. 2037 01:36:58.479 --> 01:37:00.680 Most don't know it, and a higher percentage of men 2038 01:37:00.720 --> 01:37:03.640 have it than women do. Often, there aren't clear symptoms 2039 01:37:03.640 --> 01:37:06.399 of pre diabetes early on, so people don't tend to 2040 01:37:06.399 --> 01:37:09.039 look into it. But the fact is that metabolic health 2041 01:37:09.079 --> 01:37:11.760 is shaping how your body functions every day, whether you 2042 01:37:11.800 --> 01:37:14.840 feel it or not. Tracking your glucose with Lingo can 2043 01:37:14.880 --> 01:37:17.920 help you see how food activity and stress impact your 2044 01:37:17.920 --> 01:37:21.039 glucose throughout the day. I personally have used Lingo and 2045 01:37:21.079 --> 01:37:24.199 it's been an invaluable tool for improving my metabolic health. 2046 01:37:24.439 --> 01:37:27.199 If you would like to try Lingo, Huberman Lab listeners 2047 01:37:27.199 --> 01:37:29.199 in the US and UK can save ten percent on 2048 01:37:29.239 --> 01:37:32.880 a four week plan. Just visit hellolingo dot com slash 2049 01:37:32.960 --> 01:37:36.920 Huberman for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's 2050 01:37:36.960 --> 01:37:42.279 Hellolingo dot com slash Huberman. There's a really cool course 2051 01:37:42.279 --> 01:37:44.840 at Stanford Medical School that I sat in on years 2052 01:37:44.840 --> 01:37:48.800 ago about neural regeneration, which was a topic of study 2053 01:37:48.800 --> 01:37:51.399 for my lab for a while, and they had a 2054 01:37:51.560 --> 01:37:55.479 young person that year. It was a guy in his 2055 01:37:55.560 --> 01:37:57.840 twenties who had a spinal cord injury. Came in, talked 2056 01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:01.239 about his spinal cord injury. He talked about what life 2057 01:38:01.279 --> 01:38:04.000 was like for him before and after, how he's thinking 2058 01:38:04.039 --> 01:38:07.479 about things. And then on a separate lecture, there was 2059 01:38:07.520 --> 01:38:11.119 an older individual who also had a spawnal cord injury, 2060 01:38:11.640 --> 01:38:15.239 and it was striking to see the divergence in attitude. 2061 01:38:15.800 --> 01:38:18.760 You could look at this as tragic or redeeming, depending 2062 01:38:18.760 --> 01:38:21.800 on how you think about

these things. But the older 2063 01:38:22.560 --> 01:38:25.159 gentleman was saying that you know he had this injury, 2064 01:38:25.439 --> 01:38:28.840 he knows he's never going to walk again, but he's like, 2065 01:38:28.960 --> 01:38:30.720 you know, he's lived a lot of life and he's 2066 01:38:30.720 --> 01:38:33.479 done a lot of things, and you know, and here 2067 01:38:33.520 --> 01:38:35.119 he is, and so he's going to focus on what 2068 01:38:35.159 --> 01:38:38.680 he can do. Focus on what he can do. And 2069 01:38:38.760 --> 01:38:41.159 he actually noted, this was some years ago, that he 2070 01:38:41.239 --> 01:38:44.600 wasn't that much worse off compared to his peers unless 2071 01:38:44.600 --> 01:38:47.760 he let himself become a pessimist. So if he was 2072 01:38:47.800 --> 01:38:50.520 an optimist, then he actually was still doing better than 2073 01:38:50.560 --> 01:38:55.479 a lot of his walking able peers, whereas a younger 2074 01:38:55.479 --> 01:38:57.800 gentleman was talking about how, you know, there's just so 2075 01:38:57.800 --> 01:39:00.920 many things in the in the horizon that he's gonna 2076 01:39:01.000 --> 01:39:03.039 that he hasn't done that he really wanted to do, 2077 01:39:03.119 --> 01:39:05.840 they doesn't have access to, which is really heartbreaking to hear. 2078 01:39:06.039 --> 01:39:08.000 It was a very honest discussion, and this was of 2079 01:39:08.039 --> 01:39:11.279 course mainly focused on the biology and limitations of biology 2080 01:39:11.319 --> 01:39:15.720 to try and overcome regeneration. But they brought these people 2081 01:39:15.760 --> 01:39:19.039 in because I really wanted to highlight the differences in 2082 01:39:19.119 --> 01:39:22.960 terms of patient need, and I thought it, you know, 2083 01:39:23.000 --> 01:39:25.279 this comes to mind now in this conversation. I think 2084 01:39:25.399 --> 01:39:28.560 if you accrue enough experiences good and bad, it does 2085 01:39:29.119 --> 01:39:31.760 we kind of bucket list life. We're like, Okay, you 2086 01:39:31.800 --> 01:39:35.359 know I did this, and I did that, and maybe 2087 01:39:35.359 --> 01:39:36.800 I would have liked more of that, but I can't 2088 01:39:36.840 --> 01:39:39.159 do that anymore. And you know I definitely didn't want 2089 01:39:39.199 --> 01:39:41.039 more of that, And you know, we can kind of 2090 01:39:41.079 --> 01:39:43.560 bucket list life. Yeah, And I never had a bucket 2091 01:39:43.560 --> 01:39:46.600 list growing up. It would have been very useful, like 2092 01:39:47.119 --> 01:39:50.039 sit down and at any age, I guess and just 2093 01:39:50.239 --> 01:39:52.960 write out what are the things you absolutely don't want 2094 01:39:53.000 --> 01:39:57.319 to leave this life not having done, and trying to 2095 01:39:57.319 --> 01:40:00.159 make those happen, because God forbid if you have of 2096 01:40:00.159 --> 01:40:02.880 these injuries or you stroke out and die or have 2097 01:40:02.920 --> 01:40:05.399 a heart attack, not to sound morbid, but then you 2098 01:40:05.439 --> 01:40:08.239 know you've done the things. And I think that's the 2099 01:40:08.279 --> 01:40:11.239 real tragedy of when people are limited early on. And 2100 01:40:11.359 --> 01:40:13.319 I don't know what became of the younger guy, and 2101 01:40:13.479 --> 01:40:17.359 hopefully he figured it out, because I know a lot 2102 01:40:17.359 --> 01:40:21.479 of people because of that work that are blind or paralyzed, 2103 01:40:22.239 --> 01:40:25.239 who live very enriched lives with families and all that. 2104 01:40:25.319 --> 01:40:28.800 But it's curious. It's like, I didn't think we get 2105 01:40:28.840 --> 01:40:31.279 to like the meaning of life here, purpose, purpose in life, 2106 01:40:31.279 --> 01:40:36.479 but we should probably plan and carry out on those 2107 01:40:36.520 --> 01:40:40.520 plans and not just live by default until we're older 2108 01:40:40.560 --> 01:40:41.920 and then try and figure out how we can go 2109 01:40:42.039 --> 01:40:47.359 longer with a little less pain and a few more memories. 2110 01:40:47.720 --> 01:40:49.680 I mean, it's an interesting case study when you compare 2111 01:40:49.720 --> 01:40:52.079 those two individuals and then say, you know, what do 2112 01:40:52.119 --> 01:40:53.640 you want to get out of life? And it's kind 2113 01:40:53.640 --> 01:40:56.640 of a big picture question, but a lot of older 2114 01:40:56.680 --> 01:40:59.920 adults will say they have pretty good life satisfaction, you know, happy, 2115 01:41:00.039 --> 01:41:03.199 This life fast faction could be similar and related. And 2116 01:41:03.239 --> 01:41:05.800 it's again it's the midlife people who seem to be lacking. 2117 01:41:06.520 --> 01:41:08.119 And I don't know if we're at that stage, but 2118 01:41:08.159 --> 01:41:10.039 I feel like maybe I'm on the uptick. But I 2119 01:41:10.319 --> 01:41:11.720 don't know if I have a bucket list, but I 2120 01:41:11.760 --> 01:41:13.560 certainly would like to do more things, like, Hey, I 2121 01:41:13.600 --> 01:41:16.159 really enjoyed that trip to Sedona, Arizona. I'd like to 2122 01:41:16.199 --> 01:41:16.640 do that again. 2123 01:41:17.079 --> 01:41:19.319 Amazing I just went for the first time. Yeah, my 2124 01:41:19.319 --> 01:41:21.159 girlfriend and I went out there and we're like, this 2125 01:41:21.319 --> 01:41:24.640 place is awesome. It's awesome, so beautiful, the air feels 2126 01:41:24.640 --> 01:41:26.880 so good, the light is amazing. 2127 01:41:26.479 --> 01:41:28.600 And I definitely go back. My son and I climbed 2128 01:41:28.640 --> 01:41:30.079 up you know part rocks. 2129 01:41:29.800 --> 01:41:31.079 That we you know, you're a climber. 2130 01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:33.880 Wow, I'm not a climber. I climbed then, but we 2131 01:41:34.079 --> 01:41:36.159 you know, we went there five years ago when he 2132 01:41:36.199 --> 01:41:38.199 was too young to do that. He wanted to

go back, 2133 01:41:38.239 --> 01:41:39.800 and I was like, these are the sorts of moments 2134 01:41:39.840 --> 01:41:42.439 I really enjoy. And it doesn't necessarily have to be Sedona. 2135 01:41:43.039 --> 01:41:45.239 Go up the coast here in California and get it. 2136 01:41:45.279 --> 01:41:47.479 So I feel like those are the moments that I'm like, 2137 01:41:48.000 --> 01:41:50.319 I'm not sure whether it has to be in Costa 2138 01:41:50.399 --> 01:41:53.439 Rica or Matador Beach, but I feel like those are 2139 01:41:53.439 --> 01:41:56.920 the moments that I really enjoy. You know, before it 2140 01:41:57.000 --> 01:41:58.680 was like, yeah, I want to fly an airplane. That 2141 01:41:58.680 --> 01:42:01.640 would be really cool. But I have friends who fly airplans, 2142 01:42:01.640 --> 01:42:03.600 and I'm like, you know, I have a family. Now 2143 01:42:03.640 --> 01:42:06.640 I don't need a fly an airplan anymore. I think 2144 01:42:06.680 --> 01:42:08.319 we look at these Maybe I shouldn't be riding my 2145 01:42:08.359 --> 01:42:10.720 bike either in LA but I think we start to 2146 01:42:10.720 --> 01:42:13.960 look at like what really captures you in matters and 2147 01:42:14.000 --> 01:42:16.199 some of it are like even some simple hobbies, like 2148 01:42:16.199 --> 01:42:18.920 we were talking about drawing earlier. It's something I wouldn't 2149 01:42:18.960 --> 01:42:20.800 have time for when I was twenty or thirty, like 2150 01:42:20.840 --> 01:42:25.039 I could be spending that time programming computer or writing something, 2151 01:42:25.680 --> 01:42:28.640 and now that those are very kind of important moments 2152 01:42:28.680 --> 01:42:31.960 and times that I enjoy. So yeah, having a sense 2153 01:42:31.960 --> 01:42:35.359 of purpose, I think sharing information. A lot of older 2154 01:42:35.359 --> 01:42:37.439 adults will say it's really nice to be a mentor. 2155 01:42:37.479 --> 01:42:38.960 They don't want to go back and go through the 2156 01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:41.359 grunt work of their job, but they'd love to share 2157 01:42:41.680 --> 01:42:45.600 experiences or be an educator. And you see big benefits 2158 01:42:45.640 --> 01:42:49.680 for older adults who volunteer. Again, it's correlational, but older 2159 01:42:49.680 --> 01:42:52.560 adults who are engaged in some sort of kind of 2160 01:42:52.640 --> 01:42:58.920 generativity like influencing the next generation, feel very connected and useful. 2161 01:42:59.520 --> 01:43:01.680 And that's that's something some I'm older to Alstoll say, 2162 01:43:01.680 --> 01:43:03.359 It's like, you know, I'm retired, but I still feel 2163 01:43:03.399 --> 01:43:06.439 like I'm useful. And I think, you know, certainly, how 2164 01:43:06.479 --> 01:43:08.840 can we you know that'll be us God willing one 2165 01:43:08.920 --> 01:43:10.439 day that we'll be older and be like, well, what 2166 01:43:10.479 --> 01:43:11.399 are we supposed to do? 2167 01:43:11.479 --> 01:43:11.680 Now? 2168 01:43:12.159 --> 01:43:14.600 Maybe that's what grandkids are about per apps, you know, 2169 01:43:14.680 --> 01:43:17.560 because then you're actually useful to Yeah, almost everyone in 2170 01:43:17.600 --> 01:43:20.760 a family has some unique skill set they can contribute. Yeah, 2171 01:43:20.800 --> 01:43:24.920 like my stepdad is he's a really impressive carpenter and 2172 01:43:24.960 --> 01:43:28.039 with tools, and he built my niece's dollhouses when she 2173 01:43:28.119 --> 01:43:30.279 was young. Like, if there's something to fix, like he's 2174 01:43:30.279 --> 01:43:33.279 the man, you know, or something to build. His tool 2175 01:43:33.279 --> 01:43:35.800 shed is insane. Yeah, it's incredible. 2176 01:43:35.840 --> 01:43:39.239 I think grandchildren, I mean it's family. People will often 2177 01:43:39.239 --> 01:43:41.880 say when they're you know, close to the end of life, 2178 01:43:41.920 --> 01:43:43.960 what were the most important things, And they'll say, you know, 2179 01:43:44.039 --> 01:43:48.479 family rituals. So there's Thanksgiving or Passover when everyone got 2180 01:43:48.520 --> 01:43:51.680 together and got to doing something, and so those are 2181 01:43:51.800 --> 01:43:55.039 kind of some very important memories. And I think you 2182 01:43:55.119 --> 01:43:57.880 realize you can also influence the next generation in a 2183 01:43:57.920 --> 01:44:00.760 meaningful way. I think some research, again it's relational, shows 2184 01:44:00.760 --> 01:44:03.600 that people who spend five hours a week with their 2185 01:44:03.640 --> 01:44:07.520 grandchildren have improved memory. So that seems we don't know 2186 01:44:07.520 --> 01:44:10.600 if it's causal, but it's interesting that those who spend 2187 01:44:10.640 --> 01:44:13.399 more than twenty hours a week don't show this benefit. 2188 01:44:13.439 --> 01:44:15.920 In fact, might show the opposite or exhausted. They're exhausted, 2189 01:44:16.039 --> 01:44:19.119 or they're in an unfortunate situation where they're forced into childcare, 2190 01:44:19.159 --> 01:44:22.800 there's a single parent, or someone's incarcerated. So it's interesting 2191 01:44:22.840 --> 01:44:25.319 to get that insight that, yes, being around younger people 2192 01:44:25.399 --> 01:44:29.079 or doing some meaningful interaction, whether it's mentoring, whether it's 2193 01:44:29.119 --> 01:44:32.399 grandchildren can be can be and I think it's bidirectional. 2194 01:44:32.520 --> 01:44:34.039 You know that the children learn from it. 2195 01:44:34.119 --> 01:44:34.399 I had. 2196 01:44:34.960 --> 01:44:36.640 I didn't spend a lot of time with my grandparents, 2197 01:44:36.680 --> 01:44:39.479 but I have very vivid memories of one grandfather showing 2198 01:44:39.479 --> 01:44:41.359 me how you can clean a penny in coca cola. 2199 01:44:41.960 --> 01:44:44.239 You know, that's like science, and it was like, that's crazy. 2200 01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:46.159

Should I be drinking this? You know, there's all sorts 2201 01:44:46.199 --> 01:44:49.840 of questions I had, And so I think that sort 2202 01:44:49.840 --> 01:44:52.560 of you know, interaction can be very useful for you know, 2203 01:44:52.600 --> 01:44:54.039 the grandparent and the grandchild. 2204 01:44:54.199 --> 01:44:59.039 So I think about what really enriches one's life in 2205 01:44:59.039 --> 01:45:02.199 addition to deliberately trying to build memories, you know that 2206 01:45:02.319 --> 01:45:05.359 the decision to not fly planes and but maybe to 2207 01:45:05.399 --> 01:45:08.680 get out to Sedona or Matador, Big Sur or something 2208 01:45:08.720 --> 01:45:11.119 like that. Yosemite. I'm putting in a strong voat for Yosemite. 2209 01:45:11.399 --> 01:45:13.239 You want to have an amazing experience in life. It's 2210 01:45:13.319 --> 01:45:15.640 very low cost. If you can get yourself to Yosemite, 2211 01:45:15.720 --> 01:45:18.239 drive up to the high country and hike Clouds Rest. 2212 01:45:18.279 --> 01:45:22.880 It's the It's the best thing you'll ever do. Look, 2213 01:45:22.960 --> 01:45:25.079 get there early because you'll be coming down in the 2214 01:45:25.159 --> 01:45:27.479 dark if you don't. And bring water because there's no 2215 01:45:27.560 --> 01:45:30.840 water along the way. Amazing place. I'm putting a big 2216 01:45:30.840 --> 01:45:33.880 plug for National Parks because I love Yosemite. The discussion 2217 01:45:33.920 --> 01:45:37.720 you had with Wooden, you said the two takeaways that 2218 01:45:37.800 --> 01:45:43.239 he offered were love and balance, and then ironically he 2219 01:45:44.479 --> 01:45:47.000 got harmed and eventually died from a fall because his 2220 01:45:47.079 --> 01:45:49.760 pride got in the way. Was there anything else in 2221 01:45:49.760 --> 01:45:53.680 that conversation that didn't get into your book or that 2222 01:45:54.319 --> 01:45:56.520 it's just maybe it was more subtle that you think about. 2223 01:45:56.600 --> 01:45:57.640 If not, no big deal. 2224 01:45:57.880 --> 01:46:00.119 I mean, first of all, it wasn't the fall that 2225 01:46:00.279 --> 01:46:02.399 led to his death. It was you know, he had 2226 01:46:02.399 --> 01:46:04.800 a fall, he didn't press this light. He was resilient, 2227 01:46:04.840 --> 01:46:08.279 he bounced back and you know eventually, you know, I 2228 01:46:08.359 --> 01:46:11.399 think nearly ninety nine is when he passed away, so 2229 01:46:11.880 --> 01:46:15.319 several years after the fall. That was such an inspiring interview. 2230 01:46:15.319 --> 01:46:18.000 And I remember when I first got my job at UCLA, 2231 01:46:18.199 --> 01:46:21.159 you know, growing up in Canada. I'll admit the reason 2232 01:46:21.199 --> 01:46:24.720 I knew UCLA was the basketball team the football team. 2233 01:46:24.880 --> 01:46:26.359 I remember watching the Rose Bowl. 2234 01:46:26.399 --> 01:46:29.199 It's okay, many people throughout the world think that UCLA 2235 01:46:29.319 --> 01:46:32.039 is a basketball team. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure that 2236 01:46:32.119 --> 01:46:36.119 they know that, and they've had theirs a school there. 2237 01:46:36.199 --> 01:46:39.119 But I also thought, gosh, that place sure looks nice 2238 01:46:39.159 --> 01:46:43.760 in the winter, And so it was. I was thankful 2239 01:46:43.760 --> 01:46:45.840 to be connected to coach Wouldn't, who actually used to 2240 01:46:45.920 --> 01:46:50.159 lecture in a leadership class once a year, and he 2241 01:46:50.399 --> 01:46:53.920 was very interested in, you know, serving as a coach 2242 01:46:53.960 --> 01:46:56.119 but also as a teacher. So I think this sort 2243 01:46:56.159 --> 01:47:00.960 of generativity. You know, he was so kind, thoughtful, and 2244 01:47:01.000 --> 01:47:03.279 then you come into his you know, it's a two 2245 01:47:03.319 --> 01:47:06.600 bedroom condo and encino. This is not how a famous 2246 01:47:06.600 --> 01:47:09.600 basketball coach would live now, and he had no problem 2247 01:47:09.600 --> 01:47:09.920 with that. 2248 01:47:10.079 --> 01:47:12.520 He wasn't interested in wealth or anything like that. 2249 01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:15.520 I think partly he didn't have and led a very 2250 01:47:15.520 --> 01:47:18.199 fulfilling life in the absence of that, whereas now you 2251 01:47:18.319 --> 01:47:22.039 see professional sports and all. You know, wealth can lead 2252 01:47:22.039 --> 01:47:24.760 to all sorts of problems. But so I was impressed 2253 01:47:24.760 --> 01:47:27.960 with that and just all the you know, the pride 2254 01:47:28.039 --> 01:47:32.399 he had and you know, sharing the love and balance 2255 01:47:32.479 --> 01:47:34.840 quote I thought was helpful, and I tried to distill 2256 01:47:34.880 --> 01:47:37.680 it in the book to capture not just what Wooden said, 2257 01:47:37.680 --> 01:47:40.960 but others that what I call the ABC's of successful aging. 2258 01:47:41.039 --> 01:47:43.640 It's kind of an easier way to an A is 2259 01:47:44.079 --> 01:47:46.960 an attitude, having a positive attitude about what can happen 2260 01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:50.039 as you get older. And actually more recent research shows 2261 01:47:50.079 --> 01:47:53.279 that those who have a positive attitude live longer, they 2262 01:47:53.279 --> 01:47:55.920 are less likely to develop dementia, and so it's probably 2263 01:47:56.119 --> 01:47:59.520 maybe less stress, better behavior. But more recent research shows 2264 01:47:59.520 --> 01:48:02.960 that if you have have a more negative attitude overall 2265 01:48:03.039 --> 01:48:05.039 of what can happen as you get older, but a 2266 01:48:05.039 --> 01:48:07.680 more positive attitude about what you can do your own 2267 01:48:07.760 --> 01:48:11.880 personal kind of agency over the process, that leads to 2268 01:48:12.000 --> 01:48:13.920 kind of longer life. 2269 01:48:14.359 --> 01:48:15.359 That's that friction again. 2270

01:48:15.479 --> 01:48:17.359 It's the friction. There's sounding about. 2271 01:48:17.159 --> 01:48:18.840 That you don't want it things too easy, you don't 2272 01:48:18.840 --> 01:48:21.960 want them too hard, like landscape too EASi or too hard. 2273 01:48:22.199 --> 01:48:24.880 It's it, you know again and again I've just been 2274 01:48:24.920 --> 01:48:28.319 tracking during our conversation. It's the delta. It's the difference 2275 01:48:28.319 --> 01:48:31.119 between where you're at versus where you'd like to be 2276 01:48:31.239 --> 01:48:36.159 and not letting that turney into a cynic or a curmudgeon. 2277 01:48:36.199 --> 01:48:39.359 But like, yeah, but feeling that friction. Can't we can't 2278 01:48:39.399 --> 01:48:41.960 just like kick our feet up and all the. 2279 01:48:41.960 --> 01:48:44.119 Time, right, And I think if you notice look bad 2280 01:48:44.119 --> 01:48:46.239 things can happen as you get older, but I'm going 2281 01:48:46.279 --> 01:48:48.199 to have to rise above it by doing these things. 2282 01:48:48.319 --> 01:48:51.319 That's that's the adapt component. So you know, attitudes but 2283 01:48:51.359 --> 01:48:53.560 also adapting. There's a lot of you're not going to 2284 01:48:53.640 --> 01:48:55.159 have an easy time, and a lot of the older 2285 01:48:55.119 --> 01:48:57.039 adults I've talked to said, you know, I've had to 2286 01:48:57.079 --> 01:49:00.880 adapt to changes, whether it's physical, whether it's mental. So 2287 01:49:00.960 --> 01:49:04.640 I think you know, may call a adapt And also 2288 01:49:04.720 --> 01:49:07.760 attitude is very psychological. And then b is balance, which 2289 01:49:07.800 --> 01:49:09.960 is what we've talked about already. You know, I don't 2290 01:49:09.960 --> 01:49:13.199 think it's these superages are not extremists. They're not like 2291 01:49:13.319 --> 01:49:17.600 running marathons and eating you know, only blueberries. I think 2292 01:49:17.680 --> 01:49:20.079 it's usually something like yeah, I just do this or 2293 01:49:20.119 --> 01:49:21.479 that and it works out. 2294 01:49:21.800 --> 01:49:23.840 That suggest some sort of genetic component. 2295 01:49:23.920 --> 01:49:25.960 I think there is a genetic component, but I also 2296 01:49:26.000 --> 01:49:28.119 think it's not the extreme, Like it's not like you 2297 01:49:28.159 --> 01:49:31.680 need four cups of coffee day to you know, prevent dementia. 2298 01:49:32.039 --> 01:49:34.720 It's probably having some level of balance and some you know, 2299 01:49:34.800 --> 01:49:38.800 genetic component, but and then C is often overlooked as 2300 01:49:38.840 --> 01:49:42.039 a you know, from a psychological standpoint, is connection. And 2301 01:49:42.039 --> 01:49:44.880 that's also what Woodin was emphasizing. You know, be around 2302 01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:48.800 the people you love, do the things you love. Social connection, 2303 01:49:48.840 --> 01:49:50.680 I think we learned during COVID. All of a sudden, 2304 01:49:50.680 --> 01:49:52.520 people are like, oh my gosh, I can't be around 2305 01:49:52.520 --> 01:49:54.199 people or I can see them on zoom. 2306 01:49:54.199 --> 01:49:54.920 But it's different. 2307 01:49:55.439 --> 01:49:58.359 All of a sudden, it hits home that social connection 2308 01:49:58.479 --> 01:50:00.680 is important. Now it's different for different people, you know, 2309 01:50:00.760 --> 01:50:03.199 how they want to engage in it. But I think 2310 01:50:03.239 --> 01:50:06.279 that's often lost sadly because of technology. You know, you 2311 01:50:06.279 --> 01:50:08.720 can have tons of Facebook friends, but how many friends 2312 01:50:08.800 --> 01:50:11.479 could you call up once a week to ask how 2313 01:50:11.479 --> 01:50:15.079 their day is or their week is gone? Is probably limited. 2314 01:50:15.119 --> 01:50:18.600 And as we get older, our social circle tends to shrink. 2315 01:50:19.239 --> 01:50:22.680 People move away, people pass away. But some research shows 2316 01:50:22.720 --> 01:50:25.960 the quality of those fewer relationships can actually be improved. 2317 01:50:26.600 --> 01:50:29.199 And I think that's again an interesting kind of nonlinear 2318 01:50:29.359 --> 01:50:31.600 change that you know, when we're young, we know lots 2319 01:50:31.640 --> 01:50:34.479 of people and we're interacting a lot in a social way. 2320 01:50:35.000 --> 01:50:37.560 But as we get older, it's those more meaningful kind 2321 01:50:37.600 --> 01:50:39.680 of relationships that are important. 2322 01:50:40.239 --> 01:50:43.640 Yeah, the connection piece comes up again and again. I 2323 01:50:43.640 --> 01:50:46.520 think it. You know, we talk about all this like 2324 01:50:46.560 --> 01:50:49.560 it must be kind of daunting for people in their 2325 01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:52.399 twenties and thirties now, because there's like all this stuff 2326 01:50:52.439 --> 01:50:54.960 that you can do to make yourself better that frankly 2327 01:50:55.000 --> 01:50:57.560 what we weren't aware of back when it's like, oh, 2328 01:50:57.680 --> 01:50:59.479 I like run in, so I ran. We want to 2329 01:50:59.520 --> 01:51:03.439 get stronger, so I lifted weights. I wanted to pich neuroscience, 2330 01:51:03.479 --> 01:51:05.479 So I did it, Like I just sort of followed 2331 01:51:05.479 --> 01:51:09.319 my interest. There wasn't this idea that you could like 2332 01:51:09.479 --> 01:51:12.920 fundamentally transform how long you were going to live or 2333 01:51:12.920 --> 01:51:14.680 how great you were going to feel at a given age. 2334 01:51:14.720 --> 01:51:17.000 But so I kind of wonder if it's both good 2335 01:51:17.039 --> 01:51:20.760 and bad. I don't want to undercut the idea that 2336 01:51:20.800 --> 01:51:24.560 we can strive for those things, but I also don't 2337 01:51:24.560 --> 01:51:26.640 want to promote the idea that we should all be 2338 01:51:26.680 --> 01:51:28.479 thinking about what it's going to be

like when we're seventy. 2339 01:51:28.520 --> 01:51:32.119 I mean, the unit of life being the day, I 2340 01:51:32.119 --> 01:51:35.720 think is true in the circadian sense. Our biology resets 2341 01:51:35.760 --> 01:51:39.560 every twenty four hours. Having recently pulled the first all 2342 01:51:39.680 --> 01:51:42.000 nighter in a while to finish some book at its 2343 01:51:42.439 --> 01:51:46.439 last minute, little Niptok stuff. With my producer and friend Rob, 2344 01:51:46.479 --> 01:51:48.880 we legitimately pushed through. It's like it's been like, okay, 2345 01:51:48.880 --> 01:51:50.239 we'll go to two and then it too. It's like 2346 01:51:50.239 --> 01:51:52.239 I get then we're like, looks like we're going through 2347 01:51:52.279 --> 01:51:54.199 and it's been a while. It was fun to just 2348 01:51:54.199 --> 01:51:55.800 be able, you know, as much as I talk about 2349 01:51:55.840 --> 01:51:59.000 the benefits of sleep, Yeah, it's like that was cool, 2350 01:51:59.520 --> 01:52:01.880 done that in a while, Still got it. It hurt 2351 01:52:01.920 --> 01:52:03.640 the next day we get a nap. Next day you 2352 01:52:03.640 --> 01:52:06.479 sleep a little longer, Like you know you're gonna did 2353 01:52:06.479 --> 01:52:08.199 I shorten my life? I don't know. I feel like 2354 01:52:08.239 --> 01:52:09.319 I got I'll remember that. 2355 01:52:09.640 --> 01:52:12.439 You'll remember it, and you're contributing to something that you know, 2356 01:52:12.560 --> 01:52:14.239 you think is important. You know, this is a book, 2357 01:52:14.279 --> 01:52:16.079 this is something that you want to make sure it's 2358 01:52:16.119 --> 01:52:19.199 accurate and you know, thoughtful, and you know, I think 2359 01:52:19.239 --> 01:52:21.079 when you work hard at something, it does make you 2360 01:52:21.119 --> 01:52:23.319 feel good. You're probably getting a lot of you know, 2361 01:52:23.439 --> 01:52:26.159 neurotransmitter reward mechanism kicking in. 2362 01:52:26.399 --> 01:52:27.479 Yeah, it was so much fun. This is why I 2363 01:52:27.479 --> 01:52:29.760 always say, you know, the occasional like late night out 2364 01:52:29.800 --> 01:52:32.239 or all night, as long as it's for the right reasons, 2365 01:52:32.279 --> 01:52:35.000 you know, I wish that for people occasional. Yeah, as 2366 01:52:35.039 --> 01:52:38.039 you can tell, I'm really intrigued by this idea that 2367 01:52:38.720 --> 01:52:43.560 there's something about pushing ourselves and as Woulden pointed out, 2368 01:52:43.560 --> 01:52:46.319 there's also something about coming off the gas, being able 2369 01:52:46.359 --> 01:52:48.399 to lean back and forth into those things like life 2370 01:52:48.439 --> 01:52:51.880 is an oscillation, it's a circadian oscillation. And then it's 2371 01:52:51.920 --> 01:52:53.560 like this push push, push, and then being able to 2372 01:52:53.600 --> 01:52:56.119 come off the gas. And it's an art. It's not 2373 01:52:56.199 --> 01:52:58.960 a it's not a science. There's science there, but it's 2374 01:52:59.119 --> 01:53:02.560 it's not trivial like and it actually raises this question 2375 01:53:03.479 --> 01:53:06.399 for me. You know, you're an interesting guy. You know 2376 01:53:06.439 --> 01:53:08.800 you you're young in my opinion, but I'm fifty also, 2377 01:53:08.920 --> 01:53:11.960 so you study memory, but you seem to have a 2378 01:53:12.479 --> 01:53:15.920 genuine interesting care for the older generation, like how are 2379 01:53:15.960 --> 01:53:18.520 we going to take care of them in the AI age? 2380 01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:20.760 How are we going to take care of them? Is 2381 01:53:20.760 --> 01:53:22.920 that something that's always been intrinsic to you? Like I 2382 01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.880 don't want this to sound glib, you know, but what's 2383 01:53:25.920 --> 01:53:30.439 the obsession with older folks? It's cool, it's very nurturing, 2384 01:53:30.520 --> 01:53:33.359 but it's not typical. You know, most people aren't thinking 2385 01:53:33.359 --> 01:53:36.279 about the older generation. It's natural for us as a 2386 01:53:36.319 --> 01:53:38.439 species to think about the younger generation, right. We just 2387 01:53:38.439 --> 01:53:41.560 have a what I think is a healthy reflex to like, 2388 01:53:41.680 --> 01:53:43.800 how can we make things better for kids that are 2389 01:53:43.880 --> 01:53:47.079 coming out? Young people? Make it better? Yeah, but you're 2390 01:53:47.199 --> 01:53:50.000 unique in this way. You know, you study memory in 2391 01:53:50.079 --> 01:53:54.960 the age Cohart that has arguably some of the worst memory. 2392 01:53:55.119 --> 01:53:57.399 I think it's maybe growing up around a lot of 2393 01:53:57.439 --> 01:53:59.560 older adults. Again, you know, I grew up in Canada 2394 01:53:59.560 --> 01:54:01.760 partly but also in Florida, and I was around a 2395 01:54:01.760 --> 01:54:04.439 lot of very interesting older people, you know, kind of 2396 01:54:04.439 --> 01:54:07.760 in their prime of their retirement life, who'd spend a 2397 01:54:07.800 --> 01:54:10.520 lot of time with me. And you know, I have 2398 01:54:10.640 --> 01:54:13.399 aging parents. I've seen that. So I don't know if 2399 01:54:13.439 --> 01:54:15.920 it's also like a respect for older adults, but it's 2400 01:54:15.920 --> 01:54:19.039 also I mean, maybe it's I don't want to say egocentric, 2401 01:54:19.119 --> 01:54:21.960 but in a good way. If we're lucky, we're going 2402 01:54:22.039 --> 01:54:22.800 to be there one day. 2403 01:54:23.039 --> 01:54:25.800 You're making the discoveries that you will yourself benefit, right. 2404 01:54:25.720 --> 01:54:27.560 I hope so, I hope so. And I think it's 2405 01:54:27.600 --> 01:54:28.359 an investment. 2406 01:54:28.479 --> 01:54:30.520 You know, we invest a lot in our children, and 2407 01:54:30.600 --> 01:54:33.880 it's you know, incredibly important and to be nurturing parents, 2408

01:54:33.960 --> 01:54:36.600 and you know, have government that can help, you know, 2409 01:54:37.279 --> 01:54:39.960 with education. But I think we look the other way 2410 01:54:40.000 --> 01:54:43.279 once people are well, you're on social security or you're retired, 2411 01:54:43.439 --> 01:54:46.520 and you know, and I think culturally there's you know, 2412 01:54:46.720 --> 01:54:50.359 other cultures that treat older adults with more respect. And 2413 01:54:50.399 --> 01:54:52.720 so I don't know what the reason is. And you know, 2414 01:54:53.279 --> 01:54:56.000 I teach a class on aging at UCLA. It's a 2415 01:54:56.039 --> 01:54:58.640 popular class, but it's not as popular as the class 2416 01:54:58.680 --> 01:55:02.319 on relationships or you know, things that I think younger 2417 01:55:02.359 --> 01:55:06.159 people would be interested in. But oftentimes after students take it, 2418 01:55:06.159 --> 01:55:08.600 they say, you know, I never thought i'd be interested 2419 01:55:08.600 --> 01:55:11.159 in aging, but I'm actually, you know, now that I 2420 01:55:11.199 --> 01:55:13.720 think about it, you know, it's really interesting to see 2421 01:55:13.720 --> 01:55:16.279 how my parents age. And I'm like, well, you know, 2422 01:55:16.319 --> 01:55:18.640 give yourself thirty or forty years, and I hope you'll 2423 01:55:18.680 --> 01:55:21.239 remember something from this class. And I think maybe that's 2424 01:55:21.319 --> 01:55:24.079 my early exposure made me think this is really kind 2425 01:55:24.079 --> 01:55:26.159 of an interesting thing that happens. And I remember, you know, 2426 01:55:26.199 --> 01:55:29.079 with my grandparents, they would forget you know, I get 2427 01:55:29.119 --> 01:55:31.880 my name confused with my brother's name, but they could 2428 01:55:31.960 --> 01:55:34.880 remember the price of bananas, right, So how are they 2429 01:55:34.920 --> 01:55:38.680 remembering this very detailed information versus forgetting things that are 2430 01:55:38.720 --> 01:55:41.720 presumably important? And I think it comes down to focus, 2431 01:55:41.800 --> 01:55:44.039 It comes down to you know, the era you grew 2432 01:55:44.159 --> 01:55:46.239 up in, and so I don't see it as very 2433 01:55:46.279 --> 01:55:48.560 different than you know, older adults are not different than 2434 01:55:48.600 --> 01:55:51.119 younger adults, and that they're like that's the old and 2435 01:55:51.159 --> 01:55:54.640 this is the new. But it's this progressive change. And 2436 01:55:54.720 --> 01:55:56.680 in some ways I can see in my own children. 2437 01:55:56.760 --> 01:55:58.000 I think, what are they going to be like when 2438 01:55:58.039 --> 01:56:00.720 they're eighty, What habits are going to stay with them? 2439 01:56:00.800 --> 01:56:02.800 And what things might change? And I think in some 2440 01:56:02.880 --> 01:56:04.880 ways there's a lot of things that you could see 2441 01:56:04.880 --> 01:56:06.920 it kind of as a

seed that just gets more 2442 01:56:06.960 --> 01:56:10.239 pronounced as we get older. But also that where you're 2443 01:56:10.279 --> 01:56:13.119 better at, you know, regulating emotions and doing things that 2444 01:56:13.159 --> 01:56:15.720 when we're young we're not so good at. And we 2445 01:56:15.800 --> 01:56:18.279 often think of like, how can we make older people, 2446 01:56:18.439 --> 01:56:21.359 you know better by making them look younger? And in 2447 01:56:21.399 --> 01:56:24.039 fact I sometimes think, gosh, how can we instill some 2448 01:56:24.199 --> 01:56:27.319 that not just the wisdom, but make younger people feel 2449 01:56:27.319 --> 01:56:29.560 like older people? In some ways kind of from a 2450 01:56:29.640 --> 01:56:33.640 psychological standpoint, you know, better at regulating emotions, less likely 2451 01:56:33.680 --> 01:56:34.520 to take risks. 2452 01:56:34.880 --> 01:56:36.479 You know, it's the whole, like if you know, if 2453 01:56:36.520 --> 01:56:40.199 I knew then what I know now, it's right. It's 2454 01:56:40.239 --> 01:56:43.680 interesting that Wooden said that the two most important words 2455 01:56:43.720 --> 01:56:46.279 in life are love and balance. I a friend who's 2456 01:56:46.319 --> 01:56:48.920 a psychologist, and he said, you know, the two most 2457 01:56:49.000 --> 01:56:52.000 dangerous words in the English language are if and only, 2458 01:56:52.039 --> 01:56:54.520 and especially when they're next to each other. And it's 2459 01:56:54.560 --> 01:56:57.239 interesting to watch my mind. I'm just going to like 2460 01:56:57.279 --> 01:57:01.000 if only this, if only that. It's like we can 2461 01:57:01.039 --> 01:57:07.199 default there and it's yeah, it's dreadfully useless and maybe 2462 01:57:07.199 --> 01:57:13.159 even destructive. So yeah, I encourage myself to watch out 2463 01:57:13.199 --> 01:57:16.279 for the if only, thinking it's it's it's maybe even deadly. 2464 01:57:16.319 --> 01:57:17.960 You know, we've run a lot of simulations in our 2465 01:57:17.960 --> 01:57:19.640 brain like what if I did this, or what if 2466 01:57:19.680 --> 01:57:21.159 I didn't do that, or what if I met this 2467 01:57:21.199 --> 01:57:23.880 person or what if I took this job? And I 2468 01:57:23.920 --> 01:57:26.239 think at some point, when you're young, maybe that's helpful, 2469 01:57:26.279 --> 01:57:28.680 like trying to figure out what would work out best. 2470 01:57:28.680 --> 01:57:31.479 But as you're older, it's like, well, these things have happened, 2471 01:57:31.479 --> 01:57:35.720 and I've learned from them, and yeah, I think it's 2472 01:57:35.920 --> 01:57:38.600 you know, really interesting to think of that as what if, 2473 01:57:38.640 --> 01:57:40.640 what if this happened? And you can get yourself into 2474 01:57:40.680 --> 01:57:42.800 a lot of trouble thinking what if that happens and 2475 01:57:42.840 --> 01:57:45.560 what you know, the world can be an incredibly dreary 2476 01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:48.520 place when you when you think of it that way, 2477 01:57:48.600 --> 01:57:51.079 But it's also amazing to see. And maybe that's why 2478 01:57:51.119 --> 01:57:52.720 I'm interested in older and I'll just like, look at 2479 01:57:52.720 --> 01:57:56.239 these people's seventy eighty ninety. I'm not just looking at 2480 01:57:56.279 --> 01:57:58.279 the ninety year olds who are doing incredible things. I'm 2481 01:57:58.279 --> 01:58:00.720 looking at the ninety year olds who are and perhaps 2482 01:58:00.720 --> 01:58:05.159 at peace with themselves, you know, feel comfortable talking about 2483 01:58:05.159 --> 01:58:07.039 things that they want to talk about. I you know, 2484 01:58:07.079 --> 01:58:09.880 I enjoyed your father's podcast partly because I'm like, here's 2485 01:58:09.880 --> 01:58:12.800 a guy who's not afraid of saying some things, and 2486 01:58:12.800 --> 01:58:15.119 they appreciate it. Maybe maybe it's not always you know, 2487 01:58:15.159 --> 01:58:16.239 what people would expect. 2488 01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:19.000 He hasn't a reverence to him. I mean, he's very 2489 01:58:19.920 --> 01:58:26.359 polite and believes in etiquette, but he doesn't let people 2490 01:58:26.399 --> 01:58:27.119 constrain him. 2491 01:58:27.279 --> 01:58:29.520 Yeah, and you know, I just found that, you know, 2492 01:58:29.520 --> 01:58:31.520 there's a lot of these podcasts have a lot of 2493 01:58:31.520 --> 01:58:33.319 science in them. But he had a lot of, you know, 2494 01:58:33.720 --> 01:58:35.399 things that made me think, gosh, that's interesting. 2495 01:58:35.439 --> 01:58:37.800 Could we test that? Is that really? How? You know? 2496 01:58:37.880 --> 01:58:39.359 He curiosity. 2497 01:58:39.560 --> 01:58:42.319 One of our more recent studies has shown that as 2498 01:58:42.319 --> 01:58:45.600 we get older, you know, memory does decline in many ways, 2499 01:58:45.600 --> 01:58:49.479 but older adults can remember prices. Let's say that makes sense, 2500 01:58:49.600 --> 01:58:52.119 so you know, the bananas being you know, two ninety nine, 2501 01:58:52.199 --> 01:58:54.920 But as soon as we say bananas are eighteen forty nine, 2502 01:58:55.560 --> 01:58:58.439 that just doesn't make sense. And older adults quickly forget that. 2503 01:58:59.239 --> 01:59:01.720 And that's we were talking about that the benefit of 2504 01:59:01.760 --> 01:59:04.159 forgetting things that just don't fit your schemas, that just 2505 01:59:04.199 --> 01:59:08.039 don't make sense, or the younger adults. You know, a 2506 01:59:08.079 --> 01:59:10.640 lot of undergraduates will be like, you know, I highlighted 2507 01:59:10.680 --> 01:59:12.560 eighty percent of the textbook. Why did I get a 2508 01:59:12.600 --> 01:59:16.039 CEE on the exam? It's this inability to kind of 2509 01:59:16.359 --> 01:59:20.880 selectively focus on what's important. And I've seen that even myself, Like, 2510 01:59:21.039 --> 01:59:22.920

you know, when I was younger, I'd be taking notes 2511 01:59:22.960 --> 01:59:25.680 on everything. But by your fourth year you realize, you 2512 01:59:25.680 --> 01:59:27.199 know what, let me sit back and look for the 2513 01:59:27.239 --> 01:59:30.600 overarching themes that connect things. And that's almost how I 2514 01:59:30.640 --> 01:59:33.359 did well in psychology is I'm like, Okay, some of 2515 01:59:33.399 --> 01:59:35.880 these findings make sense, and so I can remember it 2516 01:59:35.880 --> 01:59:38.520 that way, but some of them are counterintuitive and a 2517 01:59:38.560 --> 01:59:41.279 lot of this like people aren't always rational, this connoment 2518 01:59:41.359 --> 01:59:44.119 and dioversky, you know, all these biases people have. Well, 2519 01:59:44.119 --> 01:59:46.720 that's fascinating. So I just remember it that way, the 2520 01:59:46.760 --> 01:59:48.960 things that made sense and the things that didn't make sense. 2521 01:59:49.079 --> 01:59:52.760 And that's kind of how you can organize things. And 2522 01:59:52.840 --> 01:59:54.600 I think that that can be kind of a useful 2523 01:59:54.640 --> 01:59:57.159 principle as you get older, is knowing what to overlook 2524 01:59:57.279 --> 01:59:59.479 and kind of knowing what to focus on. And so, 2525 01:59:59.760 --> 02:00:02.199 you know, old adults, even though they'll say my memory 2526 02:00:02.239 --> 02:00:04.359 is not as sharp as it used to be, as 2527 02:00:04.359 --> 02:00:06.000 long as you can remember the things that are kind 2528 02:00:06.000 --> 02:00:09.279 of critical, that's what's important. And so in the study 2529 02:00:09.319 --> 02:00:12.640 on curiosity, we found that old adults tend to remember 2530 02:00:12.680 --> 02:00:15.399 the things that they're most curious about, but they're also 2531 02:00:15.439 --> 02:00:17.439 really good at forgetting the things that they just didn't 2532 02:00:17.439 --> 02:00:18.520 care about in the first place. 2533 02:00:18.560 --> 02:00:20.960 Sounds great, Yeah, honestly, it sounds great. 2534 02:00:21.159 --> 02:00:21.239 Right. 2535 02:00:21.600 --> 02:00:24.920 Yeah, I can't wait, right, because I want to learn 2536 02:00:24.960 --> 02:00:27.640 more about certain things, remember certain people in certain things. 2537 02:00:27.640 --> 02:00:29.840 But there's a lot of stuff that rolls through my 2538 02:00:29.920 --> 02:00:33.720 phone or through my email, luckily not through my daily experience, 2539 02:00:33.760 --> 02:00:36.079 but that I don't want to think about that stuff. 2540 02:00:35.760 --> 02:00:37.600 And it captures your attention, and all of a sudden, 2541 02:00:37.600 --> 02:00:39.319 You're like, where'd the last ten minutes ago? I've been 2542 02:00:39.359 --> 02:00:43.119 reading about this? Now I'm remembering this useless thing. So 2543 02:00:43.119 --> 02:00:45.039 I think, if you can prune these things, and as 2544 02:00:45.039 --> 02:00:48.239 you get older, maybe you realize.

I've even realized that, gosh, 2545 02:00:48.279 --> 02:00:51.319 I forget this. I need to focus more. It's not 2546 02:00:51.399 --> 02:00:54.079 just conscious focus, but it's like, I, you know, I'm 2547 02:00:54.119 --> 02:00:56.560 interested in this, Let's put more resources and time and 2548 02:00:56.680 --> 02:00:59.359 energy into that. It takes me longer to learn a 2549 02:00:59.399 --> 02:01:00.840 piano piece than you. 2550 02:01:00.800 --> 02:01:01.800 Know my daughter. 2551 02:01:02.039 --> 02:01:02.720 You play piano. 2552 02:01:02.800 --> 02:01:05.159 I try, but you know, I see my daughter like 2553 02:01:05.239 --> 02:01:07.359 picking these things up so quickly, and I'm like, I know, 2554 02:01:07.439 --> 02:01:08.960 I'm not going to be like that, but I can 2555 02:01:09.000 --> 02:01:11.239 be more selective about what I try and learn, what's 2556 02:01:11.279 --> 02:01:13.680 in my wheelhouse and what's just beyond it. 2557 02:01:13.800 --> 02:01:17.279 Developmental plasticity is amazing, right, it's amazing. But I know 2558 02:01:17.319 --> 02:01:18.000 she's younger than you. 2559 02:01:18.199 --> 02:01:18.840 Yeah, she's young. 2560 02:01:18.880 --> 02:01:20.840 You know, I've you know, two daughters and a son, 2561 02:01:20.840 --> 02:01:23.359 and I see them all excelling. Like my older daughter 2562 02:01:23.439 --> 02:01:27.239 is like, wow, her cognitive skills are probably beyond mind 2563 02:01:27.279 --> 02:01:29.399 and her speed of processing. She might even be a 2564 02:01:29.399 --> 02:01:32.439 better driver than I am. You know, she's good at 2565 02:01:32.479 --> 02:01:35.600 planning things. My daughter playing piano, it's like, gosh, if 2566 02:01:35.600 --> 02:01:38.520 I could have those skills, now, how I would practice more. 2567 02:01:39.119 --> 02:01:41.359 My son will hurt himself in baseball and I'm like, oh, 2568 02:01:41.399 --> 02:01:44.479 he's out for three weeks. Three days later he's pitching again. 2569 02:01:45.000 --> 02:01:47.000 And so those are things where it's like, yes, aging 2570 02:01:47.119 --> 02:01:50.319 sucks in some ways. I'll be upfront about it, but 2571 02:01:50.560 --> 02:01:53.119 I think we appreciate those things. As you get forty 2572 02:01:53.159 --> 02:01:55.640 fifty sixty, it's like, yeah, that's you know, it's hard 2573 02:01:55.640 --> 02:01:58.479 to recover from injuries. It takes you maybe longer to 2574 02:01:58.560 --> 02:02:01.640 learn something, but the things you really do care about, 2575 02:02:01.760 --> 02:02:04.159 you can use all this kind of knowledge and wisdom 2576 02:02:04.199 --> 02:02:07.239 and metacognition to focus on kind of what matters the most. 2577 02:02:07.960 --> 02:02:11.960 So it's almost as if as we are able to 2578 02:02:12.039 --> 02:02:16.800 do less with less pain or just do less, attitude 2579 02:02:16.960 --> 02:02:19.920 starts to become more and more important. That's what I'm hearing. 2580 02:02:19.960 --> 02:02:21.640 But I don't want to lead the witness. 2581 02:02:21.399 --> 02:02:23.720 As yeah, I think that's definitely the perspective. And you 2582 02:02:23.720 --> 02:02:26.800 know this is built on some developmental theories of social 2583 02:02:27.039 --> 02:02:31.199 you know, social learning, but also selective optimization with compensation. 2584 02:02:31.600 --> 02:02:33.399 You know that as you get older, maybe you're not 2585 02:02:33.439 --> 02:02:35.560 going to be doing all these things and scuba diving 2586 02:02:35.640 --> 02:02:37.640 and hiking, but you'll be like, you know that one 2587 02:02:37.720 --> 02:02:39.880 hike I really enjoy. I want to be able to 2588 02:02:39.880 --> 02:02:42.800 do it once a week. And so you're still doing 2589 02:02:42.840 --> 02:02:44.840 the things you like, but you're not doing kind of 2590 02:02:44.880 --> 02:02:48.079 the wide range of them. And another related theory is, 2591 02:02:48.279 --> 02:02:52.720 you know, socio emotional selectivity theory. Laura Carstenson at Stanford 2592 02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:55.840 another perspective, saying that as we get older are kind 2593 02:02:55.880 --> 02:02:58.479 of our mindset shifts that we don't have as much 2594 02:02:58.520 --> 02:03:01.239 time to live. We want to focus on the things 2595 02:03:01.239 --> 02:03:04.520 that are important, whereas when you're young, it's very abstract 2596 02:03:04.520 --> 02:03:06.680 to say save for retirement or what are you going 2597 02:03:06.720 --> 02:03:08.479 to do when you're sixty? It's like that, what am 2598 02:03:08.520 --> 02:03:09.479 I going to do next week? 2599 02:03:09.720 --> 02:03:09.880 Right? 2600 02:03:10.680 --> 02:03:12.640 But her work has shown that when you give people 2601 02:03:12.680 --> 02:03:15.520 different time perspectives, they make different choices. So if you 2602 02:03:15.640 --> 02:03:18.560 unfortunately tell someone who's younger that they only have five 2603 02:03:18.600 --> 02:03:20.920 to ten years left to live, they're going to make 2604 02:03:21.000 --> 02:03:24.039 choices very much like older adults too. So I don't 2605 02:03:24.079 --> 02:03:26.479 know if it's conscious that we're thinking these things, but 2606 02:03:26.680 --> 02:03:29.159 you know, as you get older, maybe you realize I 2607 02:03:29.199 --> 02:03:31.079 want to focus on the things that matter the most. 2608 02:03:31.119 --> 02:03:33.119 Maybe I won't worry so much about the things that 2609 02:03:33.159 --> 02:03:36.399 I used to worry about all the time, and that 2610 02:03:36.439 --> 02:03:38.800 can be kind of a healthy way to approach life. 2611 02:03:39.359 --> 02:03:44.640 This might sound a little mystical, but I've always wondered if, 2612 02:03:45.239 --> 02:03:50.880 barring accident or injury, whether people have some unconscious knowledge 2613 02:03:50.880 --> 02:03:54.319 about how long they're going to live. I grew up 2614 02:03:54.479 --> 02:03:56.479 near Steve jobs. He used to come

into the skateboard 2615 02:03:56.479 --> 02:03:58.680 shop that I worked to get rollerblade wheels and things 2616 02:03:58.720 --> 02:04:00.279 like that, and he was around. He didn't have curity. 2617 02:04:00.279 --> 02:04:01.920 He'd walker. When I was a postdoc, you'd still see 2618 02:04:01.960 --> 02:04:04.000 him walking through downtown pal Aalto in the evenings. My 2619 02:04:04.079 --> 02:04:06.039 dad and I would walk about once a week, we 2620 02:04:06.119 --> 02:04:09.000 take a walk together, and i'd see Steve. He was young, 2621 02:04:09.319 --> 02:04:12.439 passed away I think in twenty fifteen or something like that, 2622 02:04:12.520 --> 02:04:14.159 but I sound about right. Yeah. In any case, he 2623 02:04:14.520 --> 02:04:17.399 was thinning out then, he was going through his various treatments. 2624 02:04:17.399 --> 02:04:21.000 But you know, if you listen to his biography with 2625 02:04:21.079 --> 02:04:24.560 Walter Isaacson written by Walter Isaacson, I mean, it was 2626 02:04:24.680 --> 02:04:26.880 very clear that he had a mission. He was on it. 2627 02:04:26.920 --> 02:04:29.359 That life was you had to maximize on your life 2628 02:04:29.399 --> 02:04:32.319 that you couldn't compromise. And okay, that led to some 2629 02:04:32.720 --> 02:04:35.159 kind of high friction personality traits in him too. But 2630 02:04:35.720 --> 02:04:39.840 I don't think anyone would argue that he didn't do 2631 02:04:39.880 --> 02:04:42.439 something super impressive in what he built. It transformed the world. 2632 02:04:42.600 --> 02:04:44.800 I mean, most everyone listening to this has an apple 2633 02:04:44.840 --> 02:04:48.159 product in their vicinity as I say this, right, and 2634 02:04:48.239 --> 02:04:51.119 it almost seemed like he had some deeper knowledge he 2635 02:04:51.159 --> 02:04:54.359 wasn't going to live that long. And when I think 2636 02:04:54.399 --> 02:04:56.760 about like the twenty seven club of you know, amazing 2637 02:04:56.840 --> 02:05:00.399 artists dying at twenty seven, and just like, it's almost 2638 02:05:00.399 --> 02:05:02.239 like that there's a life energy that's either packed into 2639 02:05:02.279 --> 02:05:04.159 a shorter period of time, a medium amount of time, 2640 02:05:04.199 --> 02:05:06.960 or a longer time. Now, of course, accidents, injuries and 2641 02:05:07.199 --> 02:05:11.239 things can happen too, But I wonder, like if we 2642 02:05:11.479 --> 02:05:13.840 have a sense based on our parents, our grandparents, our 2643 02:05:14.159 --> 02:05:16.279 life notion of like I'm gonna be around a while 2644 02:05:16.800 --> 02:05:19.800 or because it really seemed to benefit him to have 2645 02:05:19.880 --> 02:05:23.079 this attitude about life, like you get one life, you 2646 02:05:23.439 --> 02:05:26.840 have to live it on your terms. You don't want 2647 02:05:26.880 --> 02:05:30.840 to compromise your soul and your heart, and you just 2648 02:05:30.920 --> 02:05:32.960 go for it. And then there are these people that 2649 02:05:33.039 --> 02:05:34.520 sort of live life as if it's going to go 2650 02:05:34.520 --> 02:05:37.239 on forever, and for them it seems to go on 2651 02:05:37.279 --> 02:05:38.720 a long time, and it seems to be kind of 2652 02:05:38.720 --> 02:05:41.159 a lower, slower arc. I'm not saying one is better 2653 02:05:41.199 --> 02:05:46.000 than the other, right, it's impossible to compare, except you know, 2654 02:05:46.159 --> 02:05:49.800 to compare the objectively, just say, okay, one live shorter, 2655 02:05:49.920 --> 02:05:52.119 pack more in, one live longer. Maybe it didn't have 2656 02:05:52.159 --> 02:05:55.319 his intense a life. Do you think there could be 2657 02:05:55.399 --> 02:05:59.239 something in our biology that we have some awareness based 2658 02:05:59.279 --> 02:06:02.439 on our at a fingerprint that you know, I've probably 2659 02:06:02.439 --> 02:06:06.000 got about I think about my dad and mom. They're 2660 02:06:06.039 --> 02:06:08.000 doing well in their eighties. But you know, I probably 2661 02:06:08.039 --> 02:06:10.560 have about ninety hundred years, so I take care of myself, 2662 02:06:10.600 --> 02:06:11.720 so I'm going to live that way. 2663 02:06:12.199 --> 02:06:15.039 Yeah, it's an interesting conjecture. 2664 02:06:15.319 --> 02:06:17.520 In some ways, we probably do know, like our life 2665 02:06:17.520 --> 02:06:20.199 span is about this, But you're right, accidents can happen, 2666 02:06:20.279 --> 02:06:22.199 things can happen. And I've seen, you know, from my 2667 02:06:22.279 --> 02:06:24.760 own family. You know, I can take the average age 2668 02:06:24.800 --> 02:06:27.119 of my mother and father Sadly, my mother passed away 2669 02:06:27.119 --> 02:06:27.800 when she was young. 2670 02:06:27.880 --> 02:06:28.960 My father's still alive. 2671 02:06:29.039 --> 02:06:32.319 So I think I have this perspective of life can 2672 02:06:32.399 --> 02:06:34.520 be short, and when people are like, I'm fifty, but 2673 02:06:34.560 --> 02:06:36.560 I haven't done this this, and this part of me like, 2674 02:06:36.600 --> 02:06:39.880 I'm fifty and I've made it this far. I'm pretty 2675 02:06:39.920 --> 02:06:42.840 happy with things. But of course, you know, your perspective 2676 02:06:42.840 --> 02:06:44.800 could be different, and I don't know. In the case 2677 02:06:44.840 --> 02:06:47.880 of these, you know, high performing individuals, maybe they lead 2678 02:06:47.960 --> 02:06:49.840 every day like it could be their last, and they 2679 02:06:49.840 --> 02:06:52.760 want to stay up all night and transform the world. 2680 02:06:53.640 --> 02:06:55.840 I think a lot of the superages are probably not 2681 02:06:55.960 --> 02:06:59.720 doing that. They're probably like getting good rest, having some 2682 02:07:00.079 --> 02:07:00.960 teams and habits. 2683 02:07:01.279 --> 02:07:02.039 They're chill. 2684 02:07:02.119 --> 02:07:05.479 They're more chill. But maybe

it's not intentional. It's like 2685 02:07:05.600 --> 02:07:07.920 I just don't want to, you know, ruin tomorrow by 2686 02:07:07.920 --> 02:07:11.039 not sleeping a lot tonight. So, you know, a lot 2687 02:07:11.039 --> 02:07:14.640 of people say, what's the secret to successful aging? And 2688 02:07:15.199 --> 02:07:18.119 I think the secret is not to look for one thing. Probably, 2689 02:07:18.279 --> 02:07:20.479 you know, we've talked a lot about you know, exercise, sleep, 2690 02:07:21.159 --> 02:07:23.439 and a lot of people say it's moderation, like it 2691 02:07:23.439 --> 02:07:26.199 doesn't mean like don't drink coffee or drink seven cups 2692 02:07:26.199 --> 02:07:28.000 a day. It's like, if you want a cup of coffee, 2693 02:07:28.119 --> 02:07:30.560 have one, but you can have realized maybe you don't 2694 02:07:30.560 --> 02:07:33.800 want it every day, get you know, eight hours of sleep, 2695 02:07:33.840 --> 02:07:36.159 well not every night. Clearly pulling an all night or 2696 02:07:36.399 --> 02:07:38.079 might have been a benefit for you, and even in 2697 02:07:38.159 --> 02:07:39.600 a good investment. 2698 02:07:39.159 --> 02:07:41.279 In the way again for a very long time, but 2699 02:07:41.319 --> 02:07:41.800 then you've. 2700 02:07:41.640 --> 02:07:42.439 Probably learned from that. 2701 02:07:42.479 --> 02:07:44.119 You're like, I don't want to be editing books late 2702 02:07:44.119 --> 02:07:47.319 at night once a week, right, but once every few years, 2703 02:07:47.439 --> 02:07:50.039 especially if it might pay off. That's that's part of 2704 02:07:50.079 --> 02:07:52.560 the you know, the deal I've made with myself. 2705 02:07:52.600 --> 02:07:55.039 So the friendship I'm realizing as you say this, the 2706 02:07:55.079 --> 02:07:57.359 fact that someone else was there is what kept me 2707 02:07:57.399 --> 02:07:59.720 out of like you know, swearing like this sucks or 2708 02:07:59.760 --> 02:08:02.159 what it's fun. It's remind me being in graduate school. 2709 02:08:02.199 --> 02:08:04.560 We used to run physiology experiments all night or imaging 2710 02:08:04.600 --> 02:08:07.520 experiments all night, and you get pretty loopy somewhere between 2711 02:08:07.560 --> 02:08:10.000 three and five am, and we just acknowledge like, oh 2712 02:08:10.039 --> 02:08:13.000 here we go again, Like mild psychosis because you're a 2713 02:08:13.039 --> 02:08:16.239 little bit psychotic in the sleep deprived state. You make 2714 02:08:16.279 --> 02:08:18.239 it through and you're like, hey, we did that. Was 2715 02:08:18.279 --> 02:08:18.760 that was fun. 2716 02:08:18.760 --> 02:08:20.760 Maybe that's why people say college is the best time 2717 02:08:20.800 --> 02:08:22.680 because you're going through a lot of things like that, 2718 02:08:22.720 --> 02:08:25.439 staying up late, working hard, struggling through this, trying to 2719 02:08:25.439 --> 02:08:27.560 figure out that. But there's a social component you're doing 2720 02:08:27.640 --> 02:08:30.079 with other people. And you know, even when I think 2721 02:08:30.079 --> 02:08:32.079 like the Steve Jobs thing, or even when I talk 2722 02:08:32.119 --> 02:08:34.279 to older adults, they're like, I like this part of 2723 02:08:34.319 --> 02:08:36.319 my work life when it was a challenge and we 2724 02:08:36.359 --> 02:08:38.560 had to travel here and do that, it was exciting. 2725 02:08:38.920 --> 02:08:41.039 They wouldn't say it was relaxing, and it's not something 2726 02:08:41.079 --> 02:08:42.000 they want to revisit. 2727 02:08:42.600 --> 02:08:43.279 And it's interesting. 2728 02:08:43.279 --> 02:08:45.119 If you ask people what age would you want to 2729 02:08:45.159 --> 02:08:47.640 go back to, not a lot of people will say 2730 02:08:47.800 --> 02:08:51.600 twenty or fifteen. It's usually kind of closer to midlife, 2731 02:08:51.600 --> 02:08:53.840 which is interesting because maybe everything's kind of firing on 2732 02:08:53.880 --> 02:08:56.479 all cylinders. Then your cognition is still pretty good, your 2733 02:08:56.560 --> 02:08:59.600 family's still around, you know, you have your job, your 2734 02:09:00.119 --> 02:09:02.520 enforced by a lot of things. But it's not going 2735 02:09:02.560 --> 02:09:04.880 back to this age. You know, when you're like twenty 2736 02:09:04.960 --> 02:09:05.520 twenty five. 2737 02:09:06.520 --> 02:09:09.520 Any experiments that your laboratory is doing now that you 2738 02:09:09.560 --> 02:09:12.159 can even just tell us about the design of the experiment, 2739 02:09:12.199 --> 02:09:13.119 if not the results. 2740 02:09:13.439 --> 02:09:13.720 Yeah. 2741 02:09:13.800 --> 02:09:16.840 Well, we've done some work on curiosity, and I think 2742 02:09:16.840 --> 02:09:20.000 that's something that from a lifespan perspective, is interesting. We've 2743 02:09:20.000 --> 02:09:22.960 been measuring different types of curiosity. One is known as 2744 02:09:23.000 --> 02:09:26.680 state curiosity, and one is known as trait curiosity. And 2745 02:09:26.760 --> 02:09:29.720 trait curiosity is just in general, are you a curious person, 2746 02:09:29.920 --> 02:09:32.079 you know, kind of get into things and have trouble 2747 02:09:32.079 --> 02:09:34.319 if you don't learn the answer, which I think a 2748 02:09:34.359 --> 02:09:36.399 lot of you know people can have. But as you 2749 02:09:36.439 --> 02:09:40.000 get older, that tends to decline with age, which I 2750 02:09:40.039 --> 02:09:41.960 thought was kind of perplexing because I you know a 2751 02:09:42.000 --> 02:09:45.159 lot of curious people. But we found that levels of 2752 02:09:45.199 --> 02:09:47.840 state curiosity when I give you some interesting bit of 2753 02:09:47.840 --> 02:09:50.600 information but I don't give you the answer if it's 2754 02:09:50.640 --> 02:09:53.960 something you care about, that actually increases with age your 2755 02:09:54.039 --> 02:09:57.079 level of curiosity and

learning. We think this is interesting 2756 02:09:57.079 --> 02:09:59.560 because it probably guides our memory as we get older. 2757 02:09:59.680 --> 02:10:01.840 You know, we're going to remember the things we care about, 2758 02:10:02.039 --> 02:10:04.560 and if you're curious, especially so. And there's probably some 2759 02:10:04.680 --> 02:10:08.960 neurochemical pathway that is still engaged, even though we know 2760 02:10:09.000 --> 02:10:11.239 all sorts of things kind of declined with age. So 2761 02:10:11.279 --> 02:10:14.039 that's one and we've been testing it with trivia questions, 2762 02:10:14.039 --> 02:10:16.239 you know, things we have experimental control over. But I 2763 02:10:16.239 --> 02:10:18.880 think it has implications for lifelong learning that if you're 2764 02:10:18.920 --> 02:10:22.279 really interested in hiking or bird watching or skateboarding, that 2765 02:10:22.399 --> 02:10:25.760 might still percolate when you're seventy or eighty, which I 2766 02:10:25.800 --> 02:10:28.720 think is really interesting. And the other thing we're looking 2767 02:10:28.760 --> 02:10:31.279 at is kind of the flip side of the curiosity, 2768 02:10:31.319 --> 02:10:33.760 which could be a double edged sword. Is that I 2769 02:10:33.840 --> 02:10:37.000 mentioned scams and fraud, right, that's like it's almost like 2770 02:10:37.039 --> 02:10:40.279 opening Pandora's box. Right as soon as someone calls you 2771 02:10:40.279 --> 02:10:42.600 with an offer that's too good to be true or 2772 02:10:43.000 --> 02:10:46.880 limited time or something. It's that thing you always wanted 2773 02:10:46.960 --> 02:10:49.920 and now it's at this price or worse. You know, 2774 02:10:49.960 --> 02:10:53.720 we kidnapped your granddaughter and don't you know you need 2775 02:10:53.760 --> 02:10:56.560 to pay this amount of money and she doesn't want 2776 02:10:56.560 --> 02:10:57.880 you to call mom and dad, and all of a 2777 02:10:57.920 --> 02:10:59.960 sudden you hear her voice on the line and she's saying, 2778 02:11:00.119 --> 02:11:03.359 please help me. All of a sudden, you're wiring the money. 2779 02:11:03.560 --> 02:11:05.560 People are running those scams people are running. 2780 02:11:05.560 --> 02:11:07.319 And that's an old one that was when you know, 2781 02:11:07.720 --> 02:11:10.119 younger people are posting things on Facebook and all of 2782 02:11:10.119 --> 02:11:12.319 a sudden their voice is captured, and now their voice 2783 02:11:12.319 --> 02:11:14.680 is played to a grandparent who's like, oh my gosh, 2784 02:11:14.680 --> 02:11:16.920 I need to help this person, you know, my loved one. 2785 02:11:16.960 --> 02:11:20.680 And it's preying on you know, socio emotional selectivity theory 2786 02:11:20.680 --> 02:11:24.479 that we focus on family and feelings and emotions and 2787 02:11:24.560 --> 02:11:26.960 older adults get caught by this. And AI has just 2788 02:11:27.000 --> 02:11:30.199 made this even worse because you're going to get phone 2789 02:11:30.239 --> 02:11:32.159 You could get a phone call from Steve Jobs that 2790 02:11:32.239 --> 02:11:34.359 sounds just like Steve Jobs right now, even though you 2791 02:11:34.399 --> 02:11:36.359 know he's not around. And so we're looking at how 2792 02:11:36.560 --> 02:11:39.640 as we get older, are we able to distinguish between 2793 02:11:39.720 --> 02:11:43.359 kind of this fake information and what's real. And it's 2794 02:11:43.399 --> 02:11:46.000 not just older at all who are prone to this, 2795 02:11:46.119 --> 02:11:48.560 it's younger people too, who are you know, in a rush, 2796 02:11:48.640 --> 02:11:51.319 might not be paying attention to something more likely to 2797 02:11:51.319 --> 02:11:55.239 get identity theft, whereas older adults they have more money, 2798 02:11:55.920 --> 02:11:58.199 they have more to lose. And so I think that's 2799 02:11:58.520 --> 02:12:01.720 that's on the more practical side of being able to 2800 02:12:01.720 --> 02:12:04.600 identify how you know scams and fraud target people, but 2801 02:12:04.640 --> 02:12:08.680 there's a psychological component, you know, emotions again that you 2802 02:12:08.720 --> 02:12:12.960 know might engage older at Altimore, so whereas younger people 2803 02:12:12.960 --> 02:12:15.600 are more interested and you know, oh my loan is 2804 02:12:15.600 --> 02:12:17.640 going to be forgiven if I give some information. 2805 02:12:17.800 --> 02:12:18.079 Great. 2806 02:12:19.880 --> 02:12:23.279 So it's kind of using psychological mechanisms in a in 2807 02:12:23.319 --> 02:12:25.600 a very nefarious way. So I'm interested in how we 2808 02:12:25.640 --> 02:12:27.439 can try and kind of prevent that. 2809 02:12:28.199 --> 02:12:29.079 And I feel like. 2810 02:12:29.079 --> 02:12:31.359 There's a lot of amateur psychologists out there who are 2811 02:12:31.359 --> 02:12:34.840 engaged in this this kind of form of fraud, So 2812 02:12:34.880 --> 02:12:38.800 that's another area of interest and trying to design experiments 2813 02:12:38.840 --> 02:12:40.960 but also look at more practical implications. 2814 02:12:41.319 --> 02:12:43.920 It's cool you have a lot of care for the 2815 02:12:43.960 --> 02:12:47.520 older generation. Wow, you're protector. That's really great. Yeah, and 2816 02:12:47.760 --> 02:12:50.479 you know a lot of discussions on this podcast about 2817 02:12:50.640 --> 02:12:54.399 you know, youth and and and everybody, you know, every age. 2818 02:12:54.439 --> 02:12:58.399 But I don't recall a conversation anyone much less a 2819 02:12:58.439 --> 02:13:03.720 scientists who's interested in and protecting older folks. I know 2820 02:13:03.760 --> 02:13:06.800 you thought about and maybe you can tell us what 2821 02:13:07.000 --> 02:13:09.399 this wisdom thing is about, right, I Mean, it's like 2822 02:13:09.600 --> 02:13:13.840 I feel like I'm not trying to be facetious here 2823 02:13:13.880 --> 02:13:15.479 when I say,

you know that there seems to be 2824 02:13:16.000 --> 02:13:20.880 a kind of transformation of advice from just advice to 2825 02:13:20.960 --> 02:13:25.399 wisdom after somebody dies. Right, It's like, when they're still around, 2826 02:13:25.439 --> 02:13:28.479 it sounds like advice, and they die and it's like wisdom, 2827 02:13:28.800 --> 02:13:30.640 you know. And and I'm not trying to make light 2828 02:13:30.680 --> 02:13:32.960 of it, but it does seem like we look at 2829 02:13:33.000 --> 02:13:37.119 knowledge from people that have passed away as different. Like 2830 02:13:37.520 --> 02:13:40.439 I haven't read much about when I like basketball, but 2831 02:13:40.479 --> 02:13:46.000 I'm like track enough that I read, you know, the 2832 02:13:46.199 --> 02:13:48.720 book about Bowerman, the coach up at Oregon, like the 2833 02:13:48.760 --> 02:13:50.840 Men of Oregon is a really he was another one 2834 02:13:50.840 --> 02:13:52.640 of these amazing coaches that was much more of a 2835 02:13:52.680 --> 02:13:56.000 mentor and teacher. He made all his runners get jobs 2836 02:13:56.640 --> 02:13:59.720 outside of school while in school and running for this 2837 02:14:00.039 --> 02:14:02.920 incredible track team, and he would place them in uh 2838 02:14:03.439 --> 02:14:06.680 not always manual labor jobs, but he made sure that 2839 02:14:06.720 --> 02:14:08.560 they understood that the talent that they were running in 2840 02:14:08.680 --> 02:14:10.640 was much more than a university. And you know, he 2841 02:14:10.680 --> 02:14:13.039 was like took the time to do this stuff. Yeah right, yeah, 2842 02:14:13.079 --> 02:14:15.640 and he was also hard knows guy. But you know, 2843 02:14:15.720 --> 02:14:18.800 so what I often wonder as I read these things, like, oh, 2844 02:14:19.119 --> 02:14:21.760 when he was alive. Was was everyone revering him? Because 2845 02:14:21.760 --> 02:14:24.119 as soon as you die, you're like a thing, right, 2846 02:14:24.720 --> 02:14:27.000 you know, it puts you in the one advantage of dying, 2847 02:14:27.319 --> 02:14:30.640 You know, your your words moved from advice to wisdom? 2848 02:14:31.279 --> 02:14:31.720 What is that? 2849 02:14:31.760 --> 02:14:33.720 I think wouldn't got a lot of play for his wisdom. 2850 02:14:33.760 --> 02:14:36.680 He retired in earlier age than most people do. He 2851 02:14:36.720 --> 02:14:39.319 didn't need to, he didn't. I don't think he made 2852 02:14:39.319 --> 02:14:42.000 as much money as you know coaches do now. But 2853 02:14:42.079 --> 02:14:45.520 I think you're right. It's interesting how knowledge goes into 2854 02:14:45.560 --> 02:14:48.119 to wisdom. And I think even when I was thinking 2855 02:14:48.119 --> 02:14:51.479 of like my own interest in wisdom and aging is 2856 02:14:51.520 --> 02:14:54.520 you know. I had an older math teacher who also 2857 02:14:54.680 --> 02:14:57.119 was my basketball coach, and I think he was formative 2858 02:14:57.119 --> 02:14:59.600 when I think of you know why? And he was 2859 02:15:00.079 --> 02:15:02.640 older and he said, listen, you're not going to be 2860 02:15:02.720 --> 02:15:05.760 starting this year if you don't put the time in 2861 02:15:05.800 --> 02:15:08.680 to your calculus class that you're putting the time into basketball. 2862 02:15:09.760 --> 02:15:11.680 And he was very clear about that. And I was like, 2863 02:15:11.720 --> 02:15:15.119 he said, you have tremendous potential in calculus. You didn't 2864 02:15:15.119 --> 02:15:17.760 say anything about basketball, but he's kind of saying, like, 2865 02:15:17.840 --> 02:15:20.199 you need to work harder. The motivations there. I've had 2866 02:15:20.760 --> 02:15:23.880 older rabbis who've given me advice you know, growing up 2867 02:15:23.960 --> 02:15:27.920 that I, you know, not even being religious, then still 2868 02:15:28.239 --> 02:15:31.399 resonates with me. And so I think, you know, even 2869 02:15:31.439 --> 02:15:35.600 at the practical level, the wisdom, sometimes it's nice to 2870 02:15:35.600 --> 02:15:37.560 hear it from the horse's mouth. You can read this 2871 02:15:38.079 --> 02:15:41.319 cute little quote or something, and that's reasonable. And then 2872 02:15:41.319 --> 02:15:44.640 I think wisdom also has a very practical kind of application. 2873 02:15:44.760 --> 02:15:48.760 So you know Sully Sullenberger, you know the pilot, you 2874 02:15:48.840 --> 02:15:50.279 know the plane. I don't know if you've seen the 2875 02:15:50.279 --> 02:15:52.720 movie either, if you remember the history is that, you know, 2876 02:15:52.760 --> 02:15:55.439 a plane takes off from New York City and both 2877 02:15:55.479 --> 02:15:57.760 engines go out, and he's over New York City and 2878 02:15:57.800 --> 02:16:00.800 he has to engage in an emerging see landing. And 2879 02:16:00.840 --> 02:16:02.479 he asked it, so, who do you want? Do you 2880 02:16:02.560 --> 02:16:06.479 want a younger pilot who is faster reaction times, better memory, 2881 02:16:07.079 --> 02:16:09.159 or do you want an older pilot who has more 2882 02:16:09.159 --> 02:16:12.560 experienced flying. But it's never landed a plane on water. 2883 02:16:13.479 --> 02:16:16.399 And we know how the story ends, thankfully, but most 2884 02:16:16.439 --> 02:16:19.000 people would probably you know, as I asked my class, this, 2885 02:16:19.000 --> 02:16:21.000 this is like the dilemma where you know, where's the 2886 02:16:21.039 --> 02:16:23.319 wisdom where is the knowledge? You know, if you're the 2887 02:16:23.359 --> 02:16:26.079 faster pilot, maybe you turn around and land at an 2888 02:16:26.119 --> 02:16:29.279 airport that makes more sense. But Sully eventually decided that 2889 02:16:29.319 --> 02:16:31.920 he had to make this water landing, and he said 2890 02:16:31.920 --> 02:16:33.840 the reason he knew he could pull this off is 2891 02:16:33.879 --> 02:16:36.920 he used to fly gliders, you know, and he said,

2892 02:16:37.000 --> 02:16:39.200 the principles are the same, but it's going to be 2893 02:16:39.200 --> 02:16:42.760 a very different you know, physics and weight management. But 2894 02:16:42.840 --> 02:16:45.799 he said he felt like he'd made a number of 2895 02:16:47.639 --> 02:16:50.799 investments over the years of kind of boosting his knowledge 2896 02:16:51.000 --> 02:16:54.600 so that he could make one enormous withdrawal, basically landing 2897 02:16:54.600 --> 02:16:57.239 this plane on the Hudson River, which is, you know, 2898 02:16:57.799 --> 02:16:59.000 an amazing feats. 2899 02:16:59.559 --> 02:16:59.719 Yeah. 2900 02:17:00.000 --> 02:17:02.319 So I think that's you know, it's a dramatic Hollywood 2901 02:17:02.360 --> 02:17:04.000 and there's a movie about it as well. But I 2902 02:17:04.040 --> 02:17:07.799 think it's a nice illustration of you can accumulate all 2903 02:17:07.840 --> 02:17:10.520 this knowledge not just so you apply what you've learned 2904 02:17:10.559 --> 02:17:13.879 it you're having to you know, transform that knowledge, say 2905 02:17:13.920 --> 02:17:16.559 now I'm going to apply it in this one emergency situation. 2906 02:17:17.440 --> 02:17:20.440 So maybe that's the difference between you know, knowledge which 2907 02:17:20.479 --> 02:17:22.799 is like I know so much, and then wisdom of 2908 02:17:22.920 --> 02:17:25.840 like how to carry it out or when it's appropriate. 2909 02:17:26.000 --> 02:17:28.799 It does help when the coaches have played or like 2910 02:17:28.840 --> 02:17:29.559 Steve Kerr. 2911 02:17:29.799 --> 02:17:31.319 But some of the best coaches are the ones who 2912 02:17:31.399 --> 02:17:33.799 are the worst, you know, Tommy Lasorda, you know, all 2913 02:17:33.840 --> 02:17:36.120 these people are like they struggled and they've seen it 2914 02:17:36.159 --> 02:17:38.840 and now they're going to go into coaching. And maybe 2915 02:17:38.840 --> 02:17:42.280 that's the same with older adult's you know again these 2916 02:17:42.319 --> 02:17:45.120 too older it'll who took my class? Who are therapists? 2917 02:17:45.840 --> 02:17:47.639 You know, it's like if you see a therapist, would 2918 02:17:47.639 --> 02:17:49.360 you want to see a twenty year old or would 2919 02:17:49.360 --> 02:17:51.680 you want to see a fifty or sixty year old? Right, 2920 02:17:51.719 --> 02:17:53.840 it just seems like there's going to be a difference 2921 02:17:53.840 --> 02:17:55.040 in what they bring to the table. 2922 02:17:55.920 --> 02:17:58.319 Nowadays, I think a lot of people are gonna say 2923 02:17:58.559 --> 02:18:02.920 chat GPT, you know which you know, I've found great 2924 02:18:03.000 --> 02:18:07.680 use of AI in the self testing, not looking for knowledge, 2925 02:18:07.680 --> 02:18:11.440 but having chat GPT generate a self self test. You 2926 02:18:11.559 --> 02:18:15.840 test me on my knowledge of something awesome because I 2927 02:18:15.840 --> 02:18:18.239 as we were talking

about before we went on Mike, 2928 02:18:18.280 --> 02:18:20.399 you know, self testing is one of the best ways 2929 02:18:20.440 --> 02:18:23.319 to learn information, realize I got that wrong, I didn't 2930 02:18:23.360 --> 02:18:25.879 know that, and that's that's the delta. That's the difference 2931 02:18:25.879 --> 02:18:27.239 between where you're at and where you want to be 2932 02:18:27.319 --> 02:18:29.879 as opposed to just reciting things or highlighting things or 2933 02:18:29.879 --> 02:18:32.280 writing them down, although I do that also, But I 2934 02:18:32.319 --> 02:18:34.920 know a lot of people are going to the internet 2935 02:18:35.079 --> 02:18:40.159 for answers. And on the one hand, we could say, well, 2936 02:18:41.120 --> 02:18:44.319 those answers are the synthesis of a lot of wise 2937 02:18:44.360 --> 02:18:47.879 people potentially, but you could say, like I would like 2938 02:18:47.959 --> 02:18:52.079 the integrated advice of Mahatma Gandhi when you know Jane 2939 02:18:52.120 --> 02:18:58.760 Goodall and you know whoever, and for this particular situation 2940 02:18:59.399 --> 02:19:01.239 you know, and it was, I don't know what it 2941 02:19:01.239 --> 02:19:02.520 would say, should do that for? 2942 02:19:02.840 --> 02:19:05.000 It's a great question. I've tried. 2943 02:19:05.040 --> 02:19:07.200 You know, I'm not of the era that my children 2944 02:19:07.200 --> 02:19:09.040 are in terms of using AI, but I'd love to 2945 02:19:09.040 --> 02:19:11.520 be like, answer this like an eighty year old would 2946 02:19:12.319 --> 02:19:14.559 How would you present it differently if you were older 2947 02:19:14.639 --> 02:19:16.280 versus younger, because a lot of it is just so 2948 02:19:16.360 --> 02:19:19.319 much more information than I'm like, Wow, that's great. Could 2949 02:19:19.319 --> 02:19:21.920 you summarize I don't use it often, but sometimes I'm like, 2950 02:19:21.959 --> 02:19:22.920 can you summarize this? 2951 02:19:23.079 --> 02:19:23.319 Can you? 2952 02:19:23.760 --> 02:19:27.440 Sometimes it misses things and sometimes it's good, but yeah, 2953 02:19:27.440 --> 02:19:31.280 it's really fascinating how how that sort of synthesis can 2954 02:19:31.319 --> 02:19:33.799 be so transforming. And you know, even my son's like, 2955 02:19:34.239 --> 02:19:35.719 why do I have to learn this when I can 2956 02:19:35.799 --> 02:19:38.120 just ask Ai now? And it used to be when 2957 02:19:38.120 --> 02:19:39.360 I was a kid. Why do I have to learn 2958 02:19:39.360 --> 02:19:41.639 this when I can just look it up in an encyclopedia. Right, 2959 02:19:41.719 --> 02:19:43.799 It's like the information is always going to be there, 2960 02:19:44.239 --> 02:19:46.239 but it's like how you're going to use it kind 2961 02:19:46.280 --> 02:19:48.760 of in an informed way. And I always say, could 2962 02:19:48.760 --> 02:19:51.200 you imagine if the next president said, you know, I 2963 02:19:51.200 --> 02:19:53.600

don't know our foreign policy with Mexico, but I could 2964 02:19:53.600 --> 02:19:55.959 look it up. It's like, well, you want to know 2965 02:19:56.040 --> 02:19:58.760 a little bit about the foreign like friend or foe 2966 02:19:58.920 --> 02:20:02.319 or something, you have to have some basic level and 2967 02:20:02.440 --> 02:20:05.399 where would you look it up? Like do you have 2968 02:20:05.520 --> 02:20:08.159 aids that you trust? You have sources that you trust. 2969 02:20:08.639 --> 02:20:10.879 I don't think you need to know all of these details, 2970 02:20:10.920 --> 02:20:13.280 but you need to know kind of some general knowledge, 2971 02:20:13.559 --> 02:20:15.959 and usually that comes from learning all the details, Like 2972 02:20:16.000 --> 02:20:18.559 you've learned all these details in neuroscience twenty years ago 2973 02:20:18.600 --> 02:20:22.040 that you've probably forgotten, but it informs how you interpret 2974 02:20:22.079 --> 02:20:23.479 neuroscience findings today. 2975 02:20:23.719 --> 02:20:28.120 Yeah, I'm admittedly like such a nerd. I have this textbook. 2976 02:20:28.120 --> 02:20:31.239 There's a really great new textbook. Didn't plan to plug this, 2977 02:20:31.319 --> 02:20:34.319 but by Collie Leechin. Lowe wrote a Principles of Neurobiology 2978 02:20:34.360 --> 02:20:37.719 textbook that not as beefy as the Principles of Neuroscience 2979 02:20:37.760 --> 02:20:40.040 one that is out of Columbia. But I'm a West 2980 02:20:40.040 --> 02:20:42.680 Coast guy, so I like Leechin's book, and recently I 2981 02:20:42.760 --> 02:20:44.959 just started reading it. Yeah, I start flipping through it, 2982 02:20:45.079 --> 02:20:47.239 reading it fronts of back, and of course I recognize 2983 02:20:47.319 --> 02:20:49.360 every line right because this is the area I've spent 2984 02:20:49.399 --> 02:20:52.280 all these years. But I had not thought about a 2985 02:20:52.280 --> 02:20:54.440 lot of it. I'm thinking about it a little differently, 2986 02:20:54.479 --> 02:20:57.559 and maybe I'm lying to myself, but I tell myself, like, 2987 02:20:57.600 --> 02:21:00.239 there's some enrichment in this. I don't know what it is. 2988 02:21:00.280 --> 02:21:02.479 I'm not just brushing out. There's something that's going to 2989 02:21:02.520 --> 02:21:04.639 come of this. Yeah, I know it. But maybe I'm 2990 02:21:04.680 --> 02:21:07.120 just defaulting to the thing that's easiest, and maybe I 2991 02:21:07.120 --> 02:21:09.600 should be, you know, looking, maybe I should be learning 2992 02:21:09.639 --> 02:21:11.000 Latin or something like that, and sotuff. 2993 02:21:11.000 --> 02:21:13.719 It's almost like nostalgia. You're going back to you remember 2994 02:21:13.799 --> 02:21:16.760 learning this. It's also it's beautiful, it's more fun because 2995 02:21:16.799 --> 02:21:18.639 now you're like, I haven't thought about this in a while, 2996 02:21:18.639 --> 02:21:20.159 but now I can connect it to the other things 2997 02:21:20.200 --> 02:21:22.639 I've been thinking about. So it's like going back to 2998 02:21:22.680 --> 02:21:26.040 a language you're familiar with or a city you're familiar with. 2999 02:21:26.399 --> 02:21:31.200 The big question is are we deluding ourselves into thinking 3000 02:21:31.239 --> 02:21:34.239 that the brain somehow gets better as we age? Like, 3001 02:21:34.319 --> 02:21:36.159 is this a story we were telling ourselves so that 3002 02:21:36.159 --> 02:21:40.120 we can, you know, hold on to more. Obviously, if 3003 02:21:40.159 --> 02:21:42.719 we do the right things you've described in your book 3004 02:21:42.719 --> 02:21:45.120 and today, you know, get a bit more, maybe a 3005 02:21:45.120 --> 02:21:49.639 lot more meaning and experience or in keeping with the 3006 02:21:49.719 --> 02:21:52.559 ericson you know, stages of development where there's a core 3007 02:21:52.600 --> 02:21:55.040 conflict at every stage of life. You know, development doesn't 3008 02:21:55.079 --> 02:22:00.159 stop when we become young adults. Neuroplasticity continues throughout the lifespan. Maybe, 3009 02:22:00.239 --> 02:22:03.920 and I certainly prefer this answer, maybe our brains get 3010 02:22:03.959 --> 02:22:09.959 better in certain ways that afford us access to life experience, 3011 02:22:11.040 --> 02:22:15.799 internal feelings of well being and peace and things that 3012 02:22:15.840 --> 02:22:19.239 are outsized in comparison to what we can experience when 3013 02:22:19.280 --> 02:22:21.239 we're young. Like I like that, and like, maybe we 3014 02:22:21.280 --> 02:22:23.280 do get better in certain ways as we age. 3015 02:22:23.319 --> 02:22:25.959 I like that perspective. Too, of course, but maybe it's 3016 02:22:26.000 --> 02:22:28.360 hard to say like what's better or what's worse. It's like, 3017 02:22:28.399 --> 02:22:32.040 this is a qualitative difference. And if your expectation of 3018 02:22:32.120 --> 02:22:35.079 old age is quite low and you realize, wait, it 3019 02:22:35.120 --> 02:22:37.040 doesn't have to be like that. Or you know, I'm 3020 02:22:37.079 --> 02:22:38.680 not going to run as fast as I used to, 3021 02:22:38.799 --> 02:22:41.319 or maybe I won't be scuba diving, but hey, can 3022 02:22:41.360 --> 02:22:45.360 actually be very meaningful. It might encourage you to engage 3023 02:22:45.360 --> 02:22:47.799 in behaviors that'll allow you to get there and be 3024 02:22:47.879 --> 02:22:49.879 there in a you know, mobile way, a way that 3025 02:22:49.920 --> 02:22:50.680 you'll enjoy it. 3026 02:22:51.520 --> 02:22:54.200 Yeah, so maybe instead of striving to be a superager, 3027 02:22:54.479 --> 02:22:59.159 we should strive to be super content something like that. Yeah, 3028 02:22:59.159 --> 02:22:59.559 I don't know. 3029 02:23:00.120 --> 02:23:02.120 There's a quote people say, like, you know, aging is 3030 02:23:02.159 --> 02:23:03.719 better than the alternative, is. 3031 02:23:03.680 --> 02:23:05.799

Youth lost on the young? No, we're going to fire 3032 02:23:05.840 --> 02:23:06.360 back and forth. 3033 02:23:06.440 --> 02:23:08.799 I definitely feel like there's times where I'm like, Wow, 3034 02:23:09.399 --> 02:23:11.479 maybe I shouldn't call the book Better with Age because 3035 02:23:11.479 --> 02:23:13.600 they let's revise. 3036 02:23:13.280 --> 02:23:14.680 That because of your son's shoulders. 3037 02:23:14.719 --> 02:23:16.559 Well, you know, just all sorts of things you can 3038 02:23:16.600 --> 02:23:18.719 do when you're younger and you don't even appreciate it. 3039 02:23:18.799 --> 02:23:21.120 You don't even think twice like, Wow, it hurt yesterday, 3040 02:23:21.120 --> 02:23:23.520 but it doesn't hurt today. It's like, oh that's months 3041 02:23:23.559 --> 02:23:23.799 for me. 3042 02:23:24.159 --> 02:23:26.079 Yeah, but the social stuff is so stressful. 3043 02:23:26.280 --> 02:23:28.159 It can be, but I'm not sure at that time. 3044 02:23:28.159 --> 02:23:32.120 It's relative to what. And you know, I think, you know, 3045 02:23:32.159 --> 02:23:35.040 there's a lot of challenges with younger people today and 3046 02:23:35.079 --> 02:23:36.559 you know, going through COVID and so on. But I've 3047 02:23:36.600 --> 02:23:40.040 also seen kind of a more focus on mental health, 3048 02:23:40.280 --> 02:23:42.280 Like I've seen, you know, with my daughters. They're like, 3049 02:23:42.280 --> 02:23:44.639 I'm going to go for a walk. When I was seventeen, 3050 02:23:44.680 --> 02:23:46.360 I wasn't just going for a walk. I was like 3051 02:23:46.680 --> 02:23:50.040 walking to get somewhere or you know, running to get something. 3052 02:23:50.079 --> 02:23:52.280 But now there's this awareness of like maybe i'll take 3053 02:23:52.319 --> 02:23:54.399 care of myself or maybe I'll listen to that podcast 3054 02:23:54.440 --> 02:23:55.120 while I'm walking. 3055 02:23:55.159 --> 02:23:58.319 It's like, wow, that seems like very wise. And so 3056 02:23:58.559 --> 02:23:59.280 I'm impressed. 3057 02:23:59.280 --> 02:24:01.399 And I hope that you know, those sorts of habits 3058 02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:04.040 as you developed them earlier, can stay with you and 3059 02:24:04.079 --> 02:24:06.799 maybe buffer in this mid life where it's like I 3060 02:24:06.840 --> 02:24:09.000 always have to be busy, I can't you know, stop 3061 02:24:09.079 --> 02:24:12.520 and think about things. And I think maybe that's why 3062 02:24:12.840 --> 02:24:15.479 my interest or even obsession with aging is to be like, Wow, 3063 02:24:15.520 --> 02:24:17.360 there's this group of people that seem to be doing 3064 02:24:17.399 --> 02:24:19.719 pretty well and I really enjoy being around them. How 3065 02:24:19.760 --> 02:24:21.799 can I be like them? And oh, it so happens. 3066 02:24:21.799 --> 02:24:24.319 They're older adults. But you know, if you went to 3067 02:24:24.399 --> 02:24:26.120 a country and you're like, this is this group of 3068 02:24:26.159 --> 02:24:28.879 people are really cool and interesting and kind of quirky. 3069 02:24:29.239 --> 02:24:31.840 Maybe I'll live here, and to me, that might be 3070 02:24:31.920 --> 02:24:34.760 what older age can be. And sure they're sometimes frail 3071 02:24:34.879 --> 02:24:37.319 and have to rely on other people, but that's not 3072 02:24:37.360 --> 02:24:38.440 always such a bad thing. 3073 02:24:38.479 --> 02:24:40.440 If you have the right structure in place. 3074 02:24:41.040 --> 02:24:43.799 You're doing important work. And I'm grateful that you would 3075 02:24:43.840 --> 02:24:47.200 come here today and share your knowledge, your wisdom with us, 3076 02:24:48.360 --> 02:24:49.799 your book. I didn't know what You're going to give 3077 02:24:49.799 --> 02:24:52.200 me a book today? Better with age? Oh, I'm going 3078 02:24:52.280 --> 02:24:54.600 to read it, The Psychology of Successful Aging. I'm going 3079 02:24:54.680 --> 02:24:57.319 to encourage you to write more books, because clearly you've 3080 02:24:57.600 --> 02:25:02.120 gathered more knowledge since then. But it's a rare find 3081 02:25:02.159 --> 02:25:05.719 that somebody is doing really interesting science and their work 3082 02:25:05.760 --> 02:25:10.200 is immediately applicable, and that it taps into a segment 3083 02:25:10.239 --> 02:25:12.760 of our population that exists everywhere in the world, but 3084 02:25:12.799 --> 02:25:17.040 that frankly doesn't get quite as much attention research attention 3085 02:25:17.280 --> 02:25:20.879 as other areas. I know there's a big interest in longevity, 3086 02:25:20.920 --> 02:25:24.120 there's a big interest in aging and preserving what we have. 3087 02:25:24.239 --> 02:25:27.440 But in addition to studying all those things, you clearly 3088 02:25:27.719 --> 02:25:30.600 study other aspects of you know, what's unique and great 3089 02:25:30.639 --> 02:25:34.959 about people you know fifty dare I say and above 3090 02:25:35.000 --> 02:25:37.479 and what we can all learn because if we're lucky 3091 02:25:37.559 --> 02:25:41.719 enough to live into those decades, we're all going to 3092 02:25:41.760 --> 02:25:44.559 be benefiting from this knowledge. So thanks for coming here today. 3093 02:25:44.639 --> 02:25:47.959 Let's do it again as more comes off the mill 3094 02:25:48.000 --> 02:25:48.520 from your lab. 3095 02:25:48.639 --> 02:25:50.719 Thank you, Thanks for getting the word out. It's really 3096 02:25:51.440 --> 02:25:53.799 wonderful to hear kind of how to digest this and 3097 02:25:54.040 --> 02:25:56.639 gives me new ideas to what we can pursue as 3098 02:25:56.639 --> 02:25:57.399 we think about. 3099 02:25:57.200 --> 02:25:59.879 This great well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks, 3100 02:26:00.319 --> 02:26:02.680 thank you for joining me for today's discussion with doctor 3101 02:26:02.719 --> 02:26:05.520 Alan Costell. To learn more about his research and to 3102 02:26:05.559 --> 02:26:08.000

find a link to his book Better with Age, The 3103 02:26:08.040 --> 02:26:11.040 Psychology of Successful Agent, please see the links in the 3104 02:26:11.040 --> 02:26:13.520 show note caption. If you're learning from and or enjoying 3105 02:26:13.559 --> 02:26:16.840 this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific, 3106 02:26:16.920 --> 02:26:19.719 zero cost way to support us. In addition, please follow 3107 02:26:19.719 --> 02:26:22.799 the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify 3108 02:26:22.879 --> 02:26:25.079 and Apple, and on both Spotify and Apple you can 3109 02:26:25.159 --> 02:26:27.479 leave us up to a five star review, and you 3110 02:26:27.520 --> 02:26:30.239 can now leave us comments at both Spotify and Apple. 3111 02:26:30.399 --> 02:26:32.799 Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning 3112 02:26:32.799 --> 02:26:35.680 and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support 3113 02:26:35.719 --> 02:26:38.479 this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments 3114 02:26:38.520 --> 02:26:40.920 about the podcast, or guests or topics that you'd like 3115 02:26:41.000 --> 02:26:43.680 me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put 3116 02:26:43.680 --> 02:26:46.120 those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read 3117 02:26:46.200 --> 02:26:48.280 all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, 3118 02:26:48.319 --> 02:26:50.159 I have a new book coming out. It's my very 3119 02:26:50.159 --> 02:26:53.879 first book. It's entitled Protocols and Operating Manual for the 3120 02:26:53.959 --> 02:26:55.799 Human Body. This is a book that I've been working 3121 02:26:55.799 --> 02:26:57.719 on for more than five years and that's based on 3122 02:26:57.760 --> 02:27:01.239 more than thirty years of research and experience, and it 3123 02:27:01.280 --> 02:27:06.239 covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, 3124 02:27:06.440 --> 02:27:09.760 protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course I 3125 02:27:09.840 --> 02:27:14.239 provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. 3126 02:27:14.360 --> 02:27:17.200 The book is now available by pre sale at protocolsbook 3127 02:27:17.239 --> 02:27:20.479 dot com. There you can find links to various vendors. 3128 02:27:20.559 --> 02:27:22.639 You can pick the one that you like best. Again, 3129 02:27:22.680 --> 02:27:25.680 the book is called Protocols, an Operating Manual for the 3130 02:27:25.760 --> 02:27:28.360 Human Body. And if you're not already following me on 3131 02:27:28.399 --> 02:27:31.840 social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms, 3132 02:27:31.920 --> 02:27:36.000 so that's Instagram, x, threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn, And on 3133 02:27:36.079 --> 02:27:39.079 all those platforms I discuss science and science related tools, 3134 02:27:39.200 --> 02:27:41.200 some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman 3135 02:27:41.280 --> 02:27:43.639 Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the 3136 02:27:43.680 --> 02:27:47.079 information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab 3137 02:27:47.159 --> 02:27:49.920 on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already 3138 02:27:49.920 --> 02:27:53.239 subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network Newsletter 3139 02:27:53.319 --> 02:27:56.639 is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries 3140 02:27:56.680 --> 02:27:58.920 as well as what we call protocols in the form 3141 02:27:58.959 --> 02:28:01.799 of one to three page pe that cover everything from 3142 02:28:01.840 --> 02:28:04.600 how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine deliberate 3143 02:28:04.639 --> 02:28:08.040 cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers 3144 02:28:08.079 --> 02:28:11.680 cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available 3145 02:28:11.680 --> 02:28:14.879 completely zero cost. You simply go to Hubermanlab dot com. 3146 02:28:14.879 --> 02:28:16.680 Go to the menu tab in the top right corner, 3147 02:28:16.760 --> 02:28:19.360 scroll down, to newsletter and enter your email, and I 3148 02:28:19.360 --> 02:28:22.479 should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. 3149 02:28:22.719 --> 02:28:25.159 Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion 3150 02:28:25.159 --> 02:28:28.600 with doctor Alan Costell. And last, but certainly not least, 3151 02:28:28.920 --> 02:28:30.840 thank you for your interest in science.