Full Transcript for Curing All Human Diseases & the Future of Health & Technology | Mark Zuckerberg & Dr. Priscilla Chan

and their effects on mental 33 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:59.719 health in children and adults. We also discuss VR, virtual reality, 34 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.239 as well as augmented and mixed reality, and we discuss 35 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:07.200 AI artificial intelligence and how it stands to transform not 36 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.520 just our online experiences with social media and other technologies, 37 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.199 but how it stands to potentially transform every aspect of 38 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.319 everyday life. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that 39 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.080 this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles 40 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:22.319 at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and 41 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:25.360 effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science 42 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.400 and science related tools to the general public. In keeping 43 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:30.520 with that theme, i'd like to thank the sponsors of 44 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:34.319 today's podcast and now for my discussion with Mark Zuckerberg 45 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.960 and doctor Priscilla Chan Priscilla, Mark, so great to meet you, 46 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:39.719 and thank you for having me here in your home. 47 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:41.599 Oh, thanks for having us on the podcast. 48 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.080 Yeah, I'd like to talk about the CZI, the chan 49 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.800 Zuckerberg Initiative. I learned about this a few years ago 50 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.639 when my lab was and still is now at Stanford 51 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.560 as a very exciting philanthropic effort that has a truly 52 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:00.599 big mission. I can't imagine a bigger mission. So maybe 53 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:02.120 could tell us what that big mission is and then 54 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.159 we can get into some of the mechanics of how 55 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.639 that big mission can become a reality. 56 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:15.759 So, like you're mentioning, in twenty fifteen, we launched the 57 00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:19.080 chan Zackerberg Initiative and what we were hoping to do 58 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:21.879 at CCI think about how do we build a better 59 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:25.080 future for everyone and looking for ways where we can 60 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:29.039 contribute the resources that we have to bring philanthropically, and 61 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.919 the experiences that Mark and I have had for me 62 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:35.000 as a physician and educator, for Mark as an engineer, 63 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:40.000 and then our ability to bring teams together to builders. 64 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.080 You know, Mark has been a builder throughout his career, 65 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.680 and what could we do if we actually put together 66 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:51.639 a team to build tools do great science. And so 67 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.919 within our science portfolio, we've really been focused on what 68 00:03:55.879 --> 00:04:00.360 some people think is either an incredibly audacious goal or 69 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.840 a inevitable goal, but I think about it as something 70 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.599 that will happen if we sort of continue focusing on it, 71 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:09.240 which is to be able to cure, prevent, or manage 72 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:10.240 all disease. 73 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:11.719 By the end of the century, all disease. 74 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:12.439 All disease. 75 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.280 So that's important, right, And a lot of times people ask, 76 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:18.120 like which disease, And the whole point is that there 77 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.439 is not one disease, And it's really about taking a 78 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.120 step back to where I always found the most hope 79 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:29.879 as a physician, which is new discoveries and new opportunities 80 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.000 and new ways of understanding how to keep people well 81 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.000 come from basic science. So our strategy at CZI is 82 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:43.040 really to build tools, fund science, change the way basic 83 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.319 scientists can see the world and how they can move 84 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:51.639 quickly in their discoveries. And so that's what we launched 85 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:53.519 in twenty fifteen. 86 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:56.000 We do work in three ways. 87 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:02.600 We fund great scientists, We build tools right now, software 88 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.439 tools to help move science along and make it easier 89 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.079 for scientists to do their work. 90 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:09.480 And we do science. 91 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.319 You mentioned Stanford being an important pillar for our science work. 92 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:18.279 We've built what we call biohubs, institutes where teams can 93 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:23.319 take on grand challenges to do work that wouldn't be 94 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.879 possible in a single lab or within a single discipline. 95 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:31.560 And our first biohub was launched in San Francisco, collaboration 96 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:36.439 between Stanford, you see, Berkeley, and UCSF Amazing. 97 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:43.399 Curing all diseases implies that there will either be a 98 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:45.800 ton of knowledge gleaned from this effort, which I'm certain 99 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.079 there will be, and there already has been. We can 100 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.199 talk about some of those early successes in a moment. 101 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:53.600 But it also sort of implies that if we can 102 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:59.879 understand some basic operations of diseases and

cells, that trends 103 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:06.399 and autism, Huntington's Parkinson's cancer and any other disease, that 104 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:10.480 perhaps there are some core principles that would make the 105 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.639 Big mission a real reality, so to speak. What I'm 106 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:18.759 basically saying is, how are you attacking this? My belief 107 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.519 is that the cell sits at the center of all 108 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.319 discussion about disease, given that our body is made up 109 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:26.879 of cells and different types of cells. So maybe you 110 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:30.720 could just illuminate for us a little bit of what 111 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.600 the cell is in your mind as it relates to 112 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:39.079 disease and how one goes about understanding disease and the 113 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.279 context of cells, because ultimately that's what we're made up of. 114 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.279 Yeah, well, let's get to the cell thing in a moment. 115 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.240 But just even taking a step back from that, you know, 116 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.160 we don't think that it's czi that we're going to cure, prevent, 117 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:53.920 or manage all diseases. The goal is to basically give 118 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.720 the scientific community and scientists around the world the tools 119 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:00.800 to accelerate the pace of science. And we spent a 120 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:02.959 lot of time when we were getting started with this 121 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.560 looking at the history of science and trying to understand 122 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:08.480 the trends and how they've played out over time. And 123 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:12.480 if you look over this very long term arc. Most 124 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:16.399 large scale discoveries are preceded by the invention of a 125 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:18.600 new tool or a new way to see something. And 126 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:20.959 it's not just in biology, right, It's like having a telescope. 127 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:25.879 You came before a lot of discoveries in astronomy and astrophysics, 128 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.680 but similarly, you know, the microscope and just different ways 129 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.000 to observe things or different platforms, like the ability to 130 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.879 do vaccines proceeded the ability to kind of cure a 131 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:39.040 lot of different things. So this is sort of the 132 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:41.680 engineering part that you were talking about about building tools. 133 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:46.120 We view our goal is to try to bring together 134 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:49.720 some scientific and engineering knowledge to build tools that empower 135 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:53.079 the whole field. And that's sort of the big arc 136 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:55.079 and a lot of the things that we're focused on, 137 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:59.160 including the work in single cell and cell understanding. 138 00:07:58.639 --> 00:07:59.199 Which. 139 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:02.720 You know, you can jump in and get into that 140 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:04.600 if you want, but yeah, I think I think we 141 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:08.000 generally agree with the premise that if you want to 142 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:13.000 understand this stuff from first principles. People study organs a lot, right, 143 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.680 They like the study kind of how things present across 144 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:19.720 the body, but there's not a very widespread understanding of 145 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:22.319 how kind of each cell operates and this is sort 146 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:24.240 of a big part of you know, some of the 147 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.319 initial work that we tried to do on the human 148 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:28.439 cell out lists and understanding what are the different cells, 149 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:30.920 and there's there's a bunch more work that we want 150 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:35.320 to do to carry that forward. But overall, I think 151 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.200 when we think about the next ten years here of 152 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:40.159 this long arc to to try to empower the community 153 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:43.679 to to be able to cure, prevent, or manage all diseases, 154 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.000 that we think that the next ten years should really 155 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.559 be primarily about being able to measure and observe more 156 00:08:50.600 --> 00:08:52.919 things in human biology. There are a lot of limits today. 157 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:54.960 It's like you want to look at something through a microscope, 158 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:58.200 you can't usually see living tissues because it's hard to 159 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:00.480 you know, see through skin or things like that. So 160 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:04.320 there are a lot of different techniques that will help 161 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:06.960 us observe different things. And this is sort of where 162 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:10.159 the engineering background comes in a bit, because I mean, 163 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:12.440 it's when I think about this is from the perspective 164 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:14.639 of like how you'd write code or something. You know, 165 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.919 the idea of like trying to debug or fix a 166 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:18.559 code base, but not be able to like step through 167 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:21.440 the code line by line. It's like not going to happen, right, 168 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:23.919 And at the beginning of any big project that we 169 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:26.639 do at META, you know, we like to spend a 170 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.480 bunch of the time upfront just trying to instrument things 171

00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:30.159 and understand you know, what are we going to look 172 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.080 at and how we're going to measure things before so 173 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:35.159 we know we're making progress and know what to optimize. 174 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:38.399 And this is such a long term journey that we 175 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:39.960 think that it actually makes sense to take the next 176 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:43.879 ten years to build those kind of tools for biology 177 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:48.559 and understanding just how the human body works in action. 178 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:50.600 And a big part of that is sells. I don't know, 179 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:52.759 you want to jump and talk talk about some of 180 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:53.639 the efforts. 181 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.960 Could I just interrupt briefly and just ask about the 182 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:02.399 different the different interventions speak that CZI is in a 183 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.960 unique position to bring to the quest to cure all diseases. 184 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.600 So I can think of I mean, I know as 185 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.159 a scientist that money is necessary but not sufficient, right, 186 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:14.919 Like when you have money, you can hire more people, 187 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:17.799 you can try different things, so that that's critical, But 188 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:23.519 a lot of philanthropy includes money. The other component is, 189 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:26.279 you know, you want to be able to see things. 190 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:28.440 As you pointed, out, So you want to know that 191 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.840 normal disease process, what is a healthy sell, what's a 192 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.720 diseased cell? Our cells constantly being bombarded with with challenges 193 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.200 and then repairing those and then what we call cancer 194 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.360 is just kind of runaway train of those challenges not 195 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.480 being met by the cell itself or something like that. 196 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:46.159 So better imaging tools, and then it sounds like there's 197 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:49.279 not just a hardware component but a software component. This 198 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.360 is where AI comes in. So maybe we can at 199 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:54.279 some point we can break this up into three different avenues. 200 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:58.039 One is understanding disease processes and healthy processes, will lump 201 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.039 those together. Then there's hard to wear, so microscopes, lenses, 202 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.279 digital deconvolution, ways of seeing things in boulder relief and 203 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:11.240 more more more precision. And then there's how to manage 204 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.159 all the data. And then I love the idea that 205 00:11:14.279 -->

00:11:17.399 maybe AI could do what human brains can't do alone 206 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:20.000 they manage understanding of the data. Because it's one thing 207 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:22.200 to organize data, it's another to say, oh, you know, 208 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.120 you know this as you point out on the analogy 209 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:27.759 with code that this particular gene and that particular gene 210 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.200 are potentially interesting. Whereas a human being would never make 211 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:32.279 that potential connection. 212 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:35.840 So you know the tools that cs I can bring 213 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:39.240 to the table. We we fund science like you're talking about, 214 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.000 and we try to, uh, there's lots of ways to 215 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.039 fund science. And just to be clear, you know, what 216 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.639 we fund is a tiny fraction of what the NIH funds, 217 00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:50.759 for instance, So. 218 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:53.879 You guys have been generous enough that it's it definitely 219 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.279 holds weight to anhh's contribution. 220 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.799 Yeah, but I think every funder has its own role 221 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:03.679 in the ecosystem, and for us, it's really how do 222 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.360 we incentivize new points of view, how do we incentivize collaboration, 223 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:11.159 how do we incentivize open science? And so a lot 224 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:16.080 of our grants include inviting people to look in look 225 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:22.120 at different fields. Our first neuroscience RFA was aim towards 226 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.240 incentivizing people from different backgrounds, immunologists, microbiologists to come and 227 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:30.440 look at how our nervous system works and how to 228 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.480 keep it healthy. Or we ask that our grantees participate 229 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:38.159 in the preprint movement to accelerate the rate of sharing 230 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:42.080 knowledge and actually others being able to build upon science. 231 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:45.840 So that's the funding that we do. In terms of 232 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:49.799 building we build software and hardware. 233 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:52.279 Like you mentioned, we put. 234 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:56.759 Together teams that can build tools that are more durable 235 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:00.840 and scalable than someone in a sing lab might be 236 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:04.919 incentivized to do. There's a ton of great ideas and 237 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:08.720 nowadays most scientists can tinker and build something useful for 238 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:11.720 their lab, but it's really hard for them to be 239 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.840 able to share that tool, sometimes be on their own 240 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.799 laptop or forget, you know, the next lab over or 241 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.039 across the globe. So we partner with scientists to see, 242 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.840 like what is useful what kinds of tools you know? 243 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:29.320 In imaging napari, like it's there's it's a useful image 244 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:34.240 annotation tool that is born from an open source community, 245 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:37.519 and how can we contribute to that, or a cell 246 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:40.679 by gene which works on single cell data sets, and 247 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.600 how can we make it build a useful tool so 248 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:47.120 that scientists can share data sets, analyze their own, and 249 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:51.960 contribute to a larger corpus of information. So we have 250 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.120 software teams that are building collaborating with scientists to make 251 00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:00.919 sure that we're building easy to use, durable, translated tools 252 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.679 across the scientific community and the areas that we work in. 253 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:06.120 We also have institutes. 254 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:10.000 This is where the imaging work comes in where you know, 255 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:13.639 we are proud owners of an electron microscope right now 256 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:19.080 and it's going to be installed at our imaging institute 257 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.840 and that will really contribute to a way where we 258 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.799 can see work differently, but we can the more hardware 259 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.120 need does need to be developed. You know, we're partnering 260 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:33.799 with a fantastic scientist in the Biohub network to build 261 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:38.720 a mini phase plate to increase to align the electrons 262 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.879 through these through the electron microscope to be able to 263 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:47.120 increase the resolution so we can see in sharper detail. 264 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.600 So there's a lot of innovative work within the network 265 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:56.519 that's happening, and these institutes have grand challenges that they're 266 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:00.759 working on. Back to your question about cells, Cells are 267 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:07.120 just the smallest unit that are alive and are your body. 268 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.600 All of our bodies have many, many, many cells. There's 269 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:14.519 you know, some estimate of like thirty seven trillion cells 270 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.000 different cells in your body, and what are they all 271 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.519 doing and what do they look like when they're healthy, 272 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.519 when you're healthy, what do they look like when you're sick. 273 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.519 And where

we're at right now with you know, our 274 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:30.759 understanding of cells and what happens when you get sick 275 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.320 is basically we have we've gotten pretty good at from 276 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.840 the Human Genome Project, looking at how different mutations in 277 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.200 your genetic code lead for you to be more susceptible 278 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.080 to get sick or directly. 279 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:44.679 Cause you to get sick. 280 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:49.360 So we go from a mutation in your DNA to wow, 281 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:55.279 you now have Huntington's disease, for instance. And there's a 282 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.799 lot that happens in the middle. And that's one of 283 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.240 the questions that we're going after at a CZI is 284 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.519 what actually happens. So an analogy that I used I 285 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:07.320 like to use to share with my friends is right now, 286 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:09.600 say we have a recipe for our cake. We know 287 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.960 there's a typo in the recipe, and then the cake 288 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:14.080 is awful. 289 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:15.600 That's all we know. 290 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.200 We don't know how the chef interprets the typo, we 291 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.840 don't know what happens in the oven, and we don't 292 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:24.919 actually have know sort of how it's exactly connected to 293 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:26.000 how the cake didn't. 294 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.320 Turn out how you had expected. 295 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:33.559 A lot of that is unknown, but we can actually 296 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.200 systematically try to break this down. And one segment of 297 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.480 that journey that we're looking at is how that mutation 298 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:44.960 gets translated and acted upon in your cells, and all 299 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:49.720 of your cells have what's called mRNA. mRNA are the 300 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:54.480 actual instructions that are taken from the DNA. And what 301 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.799 our work in single cell is looking at how how 302 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:03.039 every cell in your body is actually interpreting your DNA 303 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:07.319 slightly differently, and what happens when healthy cells are interpreting 304 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:11.400 the DNA instructions and when six cells are interpreting those directions. 305 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.240 And that is a ton of data. I just told 306 00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:19.440 you there's thirty seven trillion cells. There's different large sets 307 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.079 of mr and A in each cell. But the work 308 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.279 that we've been funding is looking at how, first of all, 309 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:27.359 gathering that information. 310 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:29.119 We've been. 311 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.839 Incredibly lucky to be part of a very fast moving 312 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.880 field where we've gone from in twenty seventeen funding some 313 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:44.559 methods work to now having really not complete but nearly 314 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.920 complete atlases of how the human body works, how flies work, 315 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:53.400 how mice work at the single cell level, and being 316 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.839 able to then try to piece together like how does 317 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.319 that all come together? And when you're healthy and when 318 00:17:59.319 --> 00:17:59.839 you're sick. 319 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:01.680 And the neat thing. 320 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:05.920 About the sort of inflection point where we're at an 321 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:09.519 AI is that I can't look at this data and 322 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.519 make sense of it. There's just too much of it. 323 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.920 And biology is complex. Human bodies are complex. We need 324 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:20.359 this much information, but the use of large language models 325 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.200 can help us actually look at that data and gain insights, 326 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:29.119 look at what trends are consistent with health and what 327 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:37.079 trends are unsuspected, And eventually, our hope through the use 328 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:39.720 of these data sets that we've helped curate in the 329 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.160 application of large language models is to be able to 330 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:48.359 formulate a virtual cell, a cell that's completely built off 331 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.240 of the data sets of what we know about the 332 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.880 human body, but allows us to manipulate and learn faster 333 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.920 and try new things to help move science and then 334 00:18:58.319 --> 00:18:59.039 medicine along. 335 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.519 Do you think we've cataloged the total number of different 336 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.440 cell types? You know, every week I look at great 337 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:09.839 journals like Cell Nature and Science, and for instance, I 338 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:16.359 saw recently that using single cell sequencing, they've categorized eighteen 339 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:18.839 plus different types of fat cells. We always think of 340 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:20.960 like a fat cell versus a muscle cell. So now 341 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.960 you've got eighteen types. Each one is going to express 342 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:29.519 many many different genes and RNAs m RNAs, and perhaps 343 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.799 the one of them is responsible for you know, what 344 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.200 we see in the you know, advanced type two diabetes 345 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:38.720 or in other forms of

obesity, or where people can't 346 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:40.720 lay down fat cells, which turns out to be just 347 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.759 as detrimental in those extreme cases. So now you've got 348 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.759 all these lists of genes. But I always thought of 349 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:52.000 single cell sequencing as necessary but not sufficient. You need 350 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:54.759 the information, but it doesn't resolve the problem. And I 351 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:59.839 think of it more of a as a hypothesis generating experiment. Okay, 352 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:01.480 of all these genes, and you could say, wow, this 353 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:07.079 gene is particularly elevated in the diabetics cell type of 354 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.160 let's say one of these fat cells or muscle cells 355 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:12.359 for that matter, whereas it's not in non diabetics. So 356 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:17.880 then of the millions of different cells, maybe only five 357 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.559 of them differ dramatically. So then you generate a hypothesis. Oh, 358 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.599 it's the ones that differ dramatically that are important. But 359 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:27.039 maybe one of those genes when it's only you know, 360 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:31.200 fifty percent changed, has a huge effect because of some 361 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:33.519 network biology effect. And so I guess what I'm trying 362 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.480 to get to here is, you know, how does one 363 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:40.200 meet that challenge and can AI help resolve that challenge 364 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.119 by essentially placing those lists of genes into a you know, 365 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.559 ten thousand hypotheses, because I'll tell you that the graduate 366 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:48.759 students and postdocs in my lab get a chance to 367 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.720 test one hypothesis at the time, and that's really the challenge, 368 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:54.720 let alone one lab. And so for those that are 369 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:56.559 listening to this, and you know, hopefully it's not getting 370 00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:59.519 outside the scope of kind of like standard understanding or 371 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.640 the understand we've generated here. But what basically saying is 372 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:05.200 you have to pick at some point more data always 373 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:08.119 sounds great, but then how do you decide what to test? 374 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.359 So, no, we don't know all the cell types. 375 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.319 I think one of the one thing that was really 376 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:17.200 exciting when we first launched this work was, you know, 377 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:21.799 cystic fibrosis, Like cystic fibrosis is caused by mutation and CFTR. 378 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:24.759 That's pretty well known. It affects a certain channel that 379 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.400 makes it hard for mucus to be cleared. That's the 380 00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:30.359 basics of cystic fibrosis. When I went to medical school, 381 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:31.559 it was taughtis fact. 382 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:33.519 So their lungs fill up with fluid. These are people 383 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:36.839 carrying around sacks of fluid filling up I've known people, 384 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:39.000 I've worked with people then they have to literally dump 385 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:40.880 the fluid out exactly. They can't run or do it 386 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:42.839 intense exercise. Life is shorter. 387 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:43.599 Life is shorter. 388 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.880 And when we applied single cell methodologies to the lungs, 389 00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:52.880 they discovered an entirely new cell type that actually is 390 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:57.160 affected by a mutation and the CF mutations and cystic 391 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.480 fibrosis mutation that actually changes the paradise of how we 392 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.039 think about cystic fibrosis. Just no, So I don't think 393 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.480 we know all the cell types. I think we'll continue 394 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:10.559 to discover them and will continue to discover new relationships 395 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:13.559 between cell and disease, Which leads me to the second 396 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.759 example I want to bring up is this large data 397 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.880 set that the entire scientific community is built around. Single 398 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:25.039 cell is starting to allow us to say, this mutation, 399 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:28.000 where is it expressed, what types of cell types it's 400 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.839 expressed in. And we actually have built a tool at 401 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.640 CCI called cell by Gene where you can put in 402 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:38.480 the mutation that you're interested in, and it gives you 403 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.839 a heat map of cross cell types of which cell 404 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:46.640 types are expressing the gene that you're interested in, and 405 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:49.200 so then you can start looking at Okay, if I 406 00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:54.359 look at gene X and I know it's related to 407 00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:57.039 heart disease, but if you look at the heat map, 408 00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:00.240 it's also spiking in the pancreas. That allows you to 409 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:04.160 generate a hypothesis why and what happens when this gene 410 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:08.240 is mutated and then the function of your pancreas. Really 411 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:12.680 exciting way to look and ask questions differently. And you 412 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:16.279 can also imagine a world where if you're trying to 413 00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:20.640 develop a therapy, a drug, and the goal is to

414 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.480 treat the function the heart, but you know that it's 415 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.160 also really active in the pancreas. Again, so what is 416 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:29.799 there going to be an unexpected side effect that you 417 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:34.160 should think about as you're bringing this drug to clinical trials. 418 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:38.200 So it's an incredibly exciting tool and one that's only 419 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.559 going to get better as we get more and more 420 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:42.480 sophisticated ways to analyze the data. 421 00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:44.839 I must say I love that because if I look 422 00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:47.519 at the advances in neuroscience over the last fifteen years, 423 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:51.440 most of them did necessarily come from looking at the 424 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.160 nervous system. Came from the understanding that the immune system 425 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.640 impacts the brain. Everyone prior to that talked about the 426 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:00.319 brain is immune privileged organ What you just said also 427 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:05.759 bridges and the divide between single cells, organs and systems, right, 428 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.920 because ultimately cells makeup organs, organs to make up systems, 429 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:10.880 and they're all talking to one another. And everyone nowadays 430 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.640 is familiar with like gut, brain axis or the microbiome 431 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:18.440 being so important, but rarely is the the discussion between 432 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:23.960 organs discussed, so to speak. So I think it's wonderful 433 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:26.920 so that that tool was generated by cz I or 434 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:28.720 c c I funded that tool. So how does this 435 00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:30.799 built that we built that you built it? So is 436 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:32.640 it built by meta? Is as meta? 437 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:34.680 This is has its own engineers? 438 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:35.119 Got it? 439 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:38.240 Yeah? They are completely different organizations. 440 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:42.200 Incredible, And so a graduate student post doc who's interested 441 00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:45.079 in particular mutation could put this mutation into this database. 442 00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:48.519 That gradual studenter post doc might be in a laboratory 443 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.440 known for working on heart but suddenly find that they're 444 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.160 collaborating with other scientists that work on the pancreas, which 445 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.799 also is wonderful because it bridges the divide between these fields. 446 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:01.680 Fields are so siloed and science not just different buildings, 447 00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:04.559 but they people rarely talk unless things like this or happening.

448 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:06.720 I mean, the graduate student is someone that we want 449 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:08.759 to empower because one they're in the future of science, 450 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:12.000 as you know. And within cell by gene, if you 451 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:14.000 put in the gene you're interested in and it shows 452 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.640 you the heat map, we also will pull up like 453 00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:19.559 the most relevant papers to that gene and so like 454 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.880 read these things fantastic. 455 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:24.680 I just think going back to your question from before, 456 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:26.720 I mean, are there going to be more cell types 457 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:29.079 that get discovered? I mean I assume so, right, I mean, 458 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:31.240 no catalog of the stuff has ever. You know, it 459 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:33.240 doesn't seem like we're ever done, right, We keep on 460 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:38.119 finding more. But I think that that gets to one 461 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.920 of the things that I think are the strengths of 462 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.880 modern llms is the ability to kind of imagine different 463 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.000 states that things can be in. So from all the 464 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.200 work that we've done and funded on the human cell 465 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:53.680 at list, there is a large corpus of data that 466 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:57.960 you can now train a kind of large scale model on. 467 00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:01.720 And one of the things that we're doing it's c 468 00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:03.640 c I, which I think is pretty exciting, is building 469 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:07.960 what we think is one of the largest nonprofit life 470 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:12.079 sciences AI clusters. Right, It's like a on the order 471 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:15.559 of a thousand GPUs and you know, it's larger than 472 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.039 what most people have access to in academia that you 473 00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:23.319 can do like serious engineering work on and and you know, 474 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:25.920 by basically training a model with all of the human 475 00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.559 sell outless data and a bunch of other inputs as well, 476 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:34.160 we think you'll be able to basically imagine all of 477 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.519 the different types of cells and all the different states 478 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:39.440 that they can be in and when they're healthy and diseased, 479 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:44.119 and how they'll interact with you know, different you know, 480 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.720 interact with each other, interact with different potential drugs. But 481 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.440 I mean, I think the state of l l MS. 482 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.599 I think this is where it's it's helpful to understand, 483 00:26:51.759 -->

00:26:53.640 you know, have a good understanding and be grounded in 484 00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:55.720 like the modern state of AI. I mean, these things 485 00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.359 are not fool proof, right, I mean one of the 486 00:26:58.400 --> 00:27:01.799 flaws of modern LLMS is the hallucinate right. So the 487 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:03.920 question is how do you make it so that that 488 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.440 can be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. And I 489 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:09.200 think the way that it ends up being an advantage 490 00:27:09.240 --> 00:27:11.759 is when they help you imagine a bunch of states 491 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:13.720 that someone can be in. But then you you know, 492 00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:16.079 as the scientist or engineer go and validate that those 493 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.519 are true, whether there are solutions to how a protein 494 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.279 can be folded, or possible states that a cell could 495 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:24.200 be in when it's interacting with other things. But you know, 496 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:26.480 we're not yet at the state with AI that you 497 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:30.240 can just take the outputs of these things as like 498 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.200 as gospel and run from there. But they are very 499 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.480 good I think, as you said, hypothesis generators or possible 500 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.599 solution generators that then you can go validate. So I 501 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.400 think that that's a very powerful thing that we can basically, 502 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:46.799 you know, building on the first five years of science 503 00:27:46.839 --> 00:27:48.680 work around the human cell outlets and all the data 504 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.079 that's been built out, carry that forward into something that 505 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.319 I think is going to be a very novel tool 506 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.640 going forward. And that's the type of thing that I 507 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.359 think we're set up to do well. I mean, you all, 508 00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:04.000 you have this exchange a little while back about you know, 509 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:06.960 funding levels and how CAZI is you just sort of 510 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.519 a drop in the in the in the bucket compared 511 00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:12.839 to NIH. But I think we have this. The thing 512 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:16.640 that I think we can do that's different is funding 513 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:20.240 some of these longer term, bigger projects that it is 514 00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:23.160 hard to galvanize the and pull together the energy to 515 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.720 do that, and it's a lot of what most science 516 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:29.599 funding is is like relatively small projects that are exploring 517 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.880 things over relatively short time horizons. And one of the 518 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:35.079 things that we try to do is like build these 519 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.920 tools over five, ten, fifteen year periods. There are often 520 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.839 projects that require hundreds of millions of dollars of funding 521 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.240 and world class engineering teams and infrastructure to do and 522 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.599 that I think is a pretty cool contribution to the field. 523 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:52.440 That that I think is there aren't as many other 524 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:54.640 folks who are doing that kind of thing, But that's 525 00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:56.799 one of the reasons why I'm personally excited about the 526 00:28:56.839 --> 00:28:59.640 virtual cell stuff, because it just it's like this perfect 527 00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:01.440 interest section of all the stuff that we've done in 528 00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:05.519 single cell, the previous collaborations that we've done with the field, 529 00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:10.200 and you bring together the industry and AI expertise around this. 530 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:15.039 Yeah, I completely agree that the model of science that 531 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:18.160 you're put together with CZI is isn't just unique from 532 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:23.079 an age, but it's extremely important that the independent investigator 533 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.319 model is what's driven the progression of science in this 534 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.559 country and to some extend in Northern Europe for the 535 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:33.160 last hundred years. And it's wonderful on the one hand 536 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:36.920 because it allows for that image we have of a 537 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:38.880 scientist kind of tinkering away or the people in their 538 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:43.799 lab and then the eurekas and that hopefully translates to 539 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:49.119 better human health. But I think, in my opinion, we've 540 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.039 moved past that model as the most effective model or 541 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.680 the only model that should be explored. 542 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.920 Yeah, I just think it's a balance what you want. 543 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:57.599 You want that, but you want to empower those people. 544 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:00.119 I think that that's these tools. 545 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:01.759 And their mechanism to do that, like NIH but but 546 00:30:01.880 --> 00:30:05.200 it's hard to do collaborative science. Is It's sort of 547 00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.839 interesting that we're sitting here not far for because I 548 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:10.720 grew up right near here as well, not far from 549 00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:14.839 the garage model of tech, right the Hewlett Blackard model, 550 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.000 not far from here at all. And the idea is 551 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.039 that you know, the tinkerer in the garage, the

inventor, 552 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:23.720 and then people often forget that to implement all the 553 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:28.119 technologies they discovered took enormous factories and warehouse So you know, 554 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.799 there's there's a similarity there to Facebook, Meta, et cetera. 555 00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:32.920 But I think in science, what we imagine that the 556 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.039 scientists alone in their laboratory and those eureka moments. But 557 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:40.240 I think nowadays that the big questions really require extensive 558 00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:44.119 collaboration and certainly tool development. And one of the tools 559 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:45.720 that you keep coming back to is these l l ms, 560 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.519 these large language models, And maybe you could just elaborate 561 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.599 for for those that aren't familiar, you know, what are 562 00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:56.160 what is a large language model for that the the uninformed? 563 00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.240 What is it? And what does it allow? What does 564 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.480 allow us to do you that you know different types 565 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:06.000 of other types of AI don't allow or more importantly, 566 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.039 perhaps what does it allow us to do that a 567 00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:11.359 bunch of really smart people, highly informed in a given 568 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:13.839 area of science, staring at the data. What can I 569 00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:14.720 do that they can't do? 570 00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.720 Sure? So, I think a lot of the progression of 571 00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:24.680 machine learning has been about building systems neural networks or 572 00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:29.319 otherwise that can basically make sense and find patterns and 573 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.279 larger and larger amounts of data. And there was a 574 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.599 breakthrough a number of years back that some folks at 575 00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.240 Google actually made it, called this Transformer Model architecture, and 576 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:45.200 it was this huge breakthrough because before then there was 577 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:47.960 somewhat of a cap where you know, if you fed 578 00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:51.680 more data into a neural network past some point, it 579 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:55.839 didn't really glean more insights from it, whereas transformers just 580 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:57.960 we haven't seen the end of how big that can 581 00:31:58.000 --> 00:31:59.559 scale to yet. I mean, I think that there's a 582 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:04.160 chance that we run into some ceiling, but it we 583 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:06.039 haven't observed it yet. But we just haven't built big 584 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.440 enough systems yet, So I would guess that I don't know. 585 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:11.160 I think this is actually one of the big questions 586 00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:15.640 and in the AI field today is basically our transformers 587 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:17.920 and are the current model architecture is sufficient? And if 588 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.079 you just build larger and larger clusters, do you eventually 589 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:24.759 get something that's like human intelligence or superintelligence? Or is 590 00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:27.960 there some kind of fundamental limit to this architecture that 591 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:31.640 we just haven't reached yet. And once we kind of 592 00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:33.559 get a little bit further in building them out, then 593 00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:34.920 we'll reach that, And then we'll need a few more 594 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.960 leaps before we get to the level of AI that 595 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.880 I think will unlock a ton of really futuristic and 596 00:32:42.920 --> 00:32:45.240 amazing things. But there's no doubt that even just being 597 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.680 able to process the amount of data that we can 598 00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.920 now with this model architecture has unlocked a lot of 599 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.359 new use cases. And the reason why they're called large 600 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.799 language models is because one of the first uses of 601 00:32:56.839 --> 00:33:02.440 them is people basically in all of the language from 602 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.079 basically the World Wide Web, and you can think about 603 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.240 them as basically prediction machine. So if you fit in, 604 00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:14.359 you put in prompt and it can basically, you know, 605 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.119 predict a version of what should come next. So you know, 606 00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:20.079 you like type in a headline for a news story 607 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.000 and it can kind of predict what it thinks the 608 00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.279 story should be. Or you could train it so that 609 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:27.920 it can be a chat pot right where Okay, if 610 00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.279 you're prompted with this question, you can get this response. 611 00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:34.000 But one of the interesting things is it turns out 612 00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:37.839 that there's actually nothing specific to using human language in it. 613 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.759 So if instead of feeding it human language, if you 614 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:44.319 use that model architecture for a network and instead you 615 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:48.680 feed it all of the human sell outless data. Then 616 00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:50.880 if you prompt it with a state of a cell, 617 00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:56.440 it can spit out different versions of like what you know, 618 00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:58.519 how that cell can interact, or different states that the 619 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.920 cell could be a next when it

interacts different things. 620 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.799 Does it have to take a genetics class. So, for instance, 621 00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:04.400 if you give it a bunch of genetics, noted, do 622 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:06.079 you have to say, hey, by the way, and then 623 00:34:06.119 --> 00:34:08.119 you give it a genetic class to it understands that, 624 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.960 you know, you've got DNA, RNA, m RNA and proteins. 625 00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:13.320 I think that the basic the basic nature of all 626 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.960 these machine learning techniques is there. They're basically pattern recognition systems. 627 00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:23.599 So they are these like very deep statistical machines that 628 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.760 are very efficient at finding patterns. So it's it's not 629 00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:31.559 actually you don't need to teach a language model that's 630 00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.239 trying to you know, speak a language you know a 631 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.360 lot of specific things about that language. Either you just 632 00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.199 feed it in a bunch of examples and then you know, 633 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:44.519 let's say you teach it about something in English, but 634 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:46.519 then you also give it a bunch of examples of 635 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:50.480 people speaking Italian. It'll actually be able to explain the 636 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.440 thing that it learned in English and Italian. Right, even 637 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:55.280 though it is so the crossover and just a pattern 638 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.960 recognition is the thing that is pretty profound in power 639 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.719 about this, but it really does apply to a lot 640 00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:07.280 of different things. Another example in the scientific community has 641 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:10.519 been the work that alpha fold You know that basically 642 00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:15.159 the folks that DeepMind have done on protein folding. It's, 643 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:18.639 you know, just basically a lot of the same model architecture, 644 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.960 but instead of language there they folded that they kind 645 00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:24.360 of fed in all these the protein data and you 646 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:26.239 can give it a state and it can spit out 647 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.280 solutions to how those proteins get folded. So it's very powerful. 648 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:33.079 I don't think we know yet as an industry what 649 00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:38.199 the what the natural limits of it are, and that 650 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:40.039 that's one of the things that's pretty exciting about the 651 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:44.360 current state. But it certainly allows you to solve problems 652 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:48.960 that just weren't solved with the generation of machine learning 653 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:51.119 that came before it. 654 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.800 It sounds like CZI is moving a lot of work 655 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.039 that was just done in vitro in dishes and in 656 00:35:57.159 --> 00:36:02.639 vivo in living organisms model organisms are humans too in silico, 657 00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:05.559 as we say, so, do you foresee a future where 658 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:09.159 a lot of biomedical research, certainly that the work of 659 00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:14.559 CCI included is done by machines. I mean, obviously it's 660 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:18.360 much lower cost and you can run millions of experiments, 661 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:19.880 which of course is not to say that humans are 662 00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:23.239 not going to be involved, but I love the idea 663 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.960 that we can run experiments in silico and mass. 664 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.480 I think the in silical experiments are going to be 665 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:35.519 incredibly helpful to test things quickly, too cheaply, and to 666 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:41.400 just unleash a lot of creativity. I do think you 667 00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:43.679 need to be very careful about making sure it still 668 00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:49.880 translates and matches this humans. You know, one thing that's 669 00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:53.440 funny in basic science is we've basically cured every single 670 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:57.840 disease in mice. Like mice have we know what's going 671 00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.760 on when they have a number of diseases because they're 672 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.880 used as a model organism, but they are not humans. 673 00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:07.960 And a lot of times that research is relevant but 674 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:12.000 not directly one to one translatable to humans. So you 675 00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:14.719 just have to be really careful about making sure that 676 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.719 it actually works for humans. 677 00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:21.280 Sounds like what CCI is doing is actually creating a 678 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:25.000 new field. As I'm hearing all of this, I'm thinking, Okay, 679 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:31.679 this transcends immunology department, you know, cardiothoracic surgery. I mean neuroscience. 680 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:35.679 The idea of a new field where you certainly embrace 681 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.280 the realities of universities and laboratories because that's where most 682 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:40.800 of the work that your funding has done. Is that right? Okay, 683 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:43.960 So maybe we need to think about what it means 684 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.840 to do science differently, and I think that's one of 685 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:50.239 the things that's most exciting. Along those lines. It seems 686 00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:52.480 that bringing together a lot of different types of people 687 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:58.400 at

different major institutions is going to be especially important. 688 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:04.639 So I know that the initial CCI biohub gratefully included Stanford, 689 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.159 we'll put that first in the list, but also UCSF 690 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:12.679 forgive me many friends at UCSF, and also Berkeley. But 691 00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:17.480 there are now some additional institutions involved. So maybe you 692 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:19.559 could talk about that and what motivated the decision to 693 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:23.840 branch outside the Bay Area and and why you selected 694 00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:27.239 those particular additional institutions to be included. 695 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.079 Well, I mean, I'll just say a part of a 696 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.199 big part of why we wanted to create additional biohubs 697 00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:34.000 as we were just so impressed by the work that 698 00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:37.320 the folks who are running the first biohub did. And 699 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:40.920 I also think and you should walk through the the 700 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.800 work of the Chicago Biohub and the New York Biohub 701 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:45.840 that we just announced. But I think it's actually an 702 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:51.159 interesting set of examples that balance the limits of what 703 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:55.440 you want to do with like physical material engineering and 704 00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:58.400 and and and where things are purely biological. Because the 705 00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:01.880 Chicago team is really building more sensors to be able 706 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:03.519 to understand what's going on in your body, but that's 707 00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:07.280 more of like a physical kind of engineering challenge, whereas 708 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.039 the New York team we basically talked about this is 709 00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:14.039 like a cellular endoscope of being able to have like 710 00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:16.320 an immune cell or something that can go and understand, 711 00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.000 you know, what is like, what's the thing that's going 712 00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:21.519 on in your body. But it's not like a physical 713 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.159 piece of hardware. It's a cell that you can basically, 714 00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:28.320 you know, have have just go report out on on 715 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.239 on different things that are happening inside the body. 716 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:33.039 So so you should to sell the microscope, yeah. 717 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:34.920 And then and then eventually actually being able to act 718 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:36.239 on it. But I mean, but you should you should 719 00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:37.360 go into more detail in all this. 720 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:40.119 So a core principle of how we think about biohubs 721 00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:43.760 it is that it has to be uh

when we 722 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.440 invited proposals, it has to be at least three institutions, 723 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:51.119 So really breaking down the barrier of a single university 724 00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:55.519 oftentimes asking for the people designing the research aim to 725 00:39:55.559 --> 00:40:00.079 come from all different backgrounds and to explain why the 726 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:05.239 the problem that they want to solve requires interdisciplinary, inter 727 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:10.880 university institution collaboration to actually make happen. We just put 728 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:14.320 that request for proposal out there with our San Francisco 729 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:17.880 Biohub as an example where they've done incredible work in 730 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:24.239 single cell biology and infectious disease, and we got i 731 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:27.599 want to say, like fifty seven proposals from over one 732 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.519 hundred and fifty institutions. A lot of ideas came together, 733 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:35.000 and you know, we're so so excited that we've been 734 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:38.840 able to launch Chicago and New York. Chicago is a 735 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:44.280 collaboration between UIUC University of Illinois or Rana Champaign and 736 00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:49.760 University of Chicago and Northwestern. If I obviously these universities 737 00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:52.559 are multifaceted, but if I were to sort of describe 738 00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:56.960 them by their like stereotypical strength, Northwestern has an incredible 739 00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:03.920 medical system and hospital system. University of Chicago brings to 740 00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:08.719 the table incredible basic science strengths. UH University of Illinois 741 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:12.960 is a computing powerhouse, and so they came together and 742 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:15.840 proposed that they were going to start thinking about cells 743 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:19.440 in tissue, so that one of the one of the 744 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.440 layers that you just alluded to, So how do the 745 00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:26.719 cells that we know behave and act differently when they 746 00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.119 come together as a tissue. And the first one of 747 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:31.920 the first tissues that they're starting with is skin. So 748 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.679 they've been already been able to as a collaboration under 749 00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:41.880 the leadership of Shana Kelly design art engineered skin tissue. 750 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:46.000 The architecture looks the same as what's in you and I, 751 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.960 And what they've done is built these super super thin 752 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:55.159 sensors and they embed these sensors throughout the layers of 753 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.880 this engineer tissue. 754 00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:58.559 And they read out the data. 755 00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:01.840 They want to see how these cells, what these cells 756 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.360 are secreting, how these cells talk to each other, and 757 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.920 what happens when these cells get inflamed. Inflammation is an 758 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:11.719 incredibly important process that drives fifty percent of all deaths, 759 00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:15.719 and so this is another sort of disease agnostic approach. 760 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:18.559 We want to understand inflammation and they're going to get 761 00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:21.679 a ton of information out from these sensors that tell 762 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:26.400 you what happens when something goes awry. Because right now 763 00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:29.280 we can say, like when you have an allergic reaction. 764 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:31.880 Your skin gets red and puffy, But what is the 765 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:36.159 earliest signal of that? And these sensors can look at 766 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.360 the behaviors of these cells over time, and then you 767 00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.920 can apply a large language model to look at the 768 00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:46.920 earliest statistically significant changes that can allow you to intervene 769 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:51.320 as early as possible. So that's what Chicago's doing. They're 770 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:55.199 starting in the skin cells. They're also looking at the 771 00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:00.920 neuromuscular junction, which is the connection between where neuron attaches 772 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:02.840 to a muscle and tells a muscle how to behave 773 00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:07.119 super important in things like als, but also in aging. 774 00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:12.440 The slowed transmission of information across that neuromuscular junction is 775 00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:15.519 what causes old people to fall. Their brain cannot trigger 776 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:18.920 their muscles to react fast enough, and so we want 777 00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:21.320 to be able to embed these sensors to understand how 778 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:27.320 these different interconnected systems within our bodies work together. In 779 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:33.760 New York, they're doing a related but equally exciting project 780 00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:39.559 where they're engineering individual cells to be able to go 781 00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:45.760 in and identify changes in a human body. So what 782 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:48.320 they'll do is they're calling. 783 00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:50.280 It's a wild I mean, I love it. I mean 784 00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.840 this is I don't want to go on a tangent. 785 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:55.360 But for those that want to look at up adaptive optics, 786 00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:58.719 you know, there's a lot of distortion and interference when 787 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:00.440 you try and look at

something really small, a really 788 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.559 far away, and really smart physicists figured out, well, use 789 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:07.599 the interference as part of the microscope. Make those actually 790 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:09.519 lenses of the microscope. 791 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:10.880 You should talk about image separately. 792 00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:14.880 So it's just it's extremely clever along those lines. It's 793 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:16.719 not intuitive, but then when you hear it, it's like 794 00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:18.639 it makes so much sense. Yeah, you know, it's not 795 00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:22.119 immediately intuitive. Make the cells that are already to navigate 796 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.840 to tissues or embed themselves in tissues be the microscope 797 00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:26.400 within that tissue. Really, I love it. 798 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.239 The way that I explain this to my friends and 799 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:33.920 my family is this is fantastic voyage, but real life. 800 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.559 Like we are going into the human body, and we're 801 00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.440 using the meane cells, which you know are privileged and 802 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.760 already working to keep your body healthy, and being able 803 00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:47.039 to target them to examine certain things. So like you 804 00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:50.159 can engineer in a mine cell to go in your 805 00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:54.000 body and look inside your coronary arteries and say are 806 00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:58.239 these arteries healthy? Or are their plaques because because plaques 807 00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:02.519 lead to blockage, which lead to heart attacks, and the 808 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:05.920 cell can then record that information and report it back out. 809 00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.119 That's the first half what the New York biohob is 810 00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:11.039 going to do. The second half is can you then 811 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:13.840 engineer the cells to go do something about it? Can 812 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:16.559 I then tell a different cell, immune cell that is 813 00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:19.199 able to transport in your body, to go in and 814 00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:24.199 clean that up in a targeted way? And so it's 815 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:28.000 incredibly exciting. They're going to study things that are sort 816 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:30.960 of immune privileged that your immune system normally doesn't have 817 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:36.519 access to, things like ovarian and pancreatic cancer. They'll also 818 00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:40.440 look at a number of nerd degenerative diseases since the 819 00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:44.159 immune system doesn't presently have a ton of access into 820 00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:50.320 the nervous system. But it's both mind blowing and it 821 00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:52.840 feels like sci fi. But science is actually in a 822 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:56.239 place where if you really pushed a group of incredibly 823 00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:59.800 qualified scientists, they could you do this? If given the chance, 824 00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:04.639 then there's like probably give us enough time, the bright 825 00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:06.880 team and resources, like it's doable. 826 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:10.119 Yeah, I mean it's a ten to fifteen year project. Yeah, 827 00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:12.800 but it's awesome. Engineer it sells. Yeah. 828 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:15.719 I love the optimism and the moment you said, make 829 00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:18.960 the sell the microscope, so to speak, it was like, yes, yes, 830 00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:22.639 and yes. It just makes so much sense. What motivated 831 00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:26.880 the decision to do the work of CCI in the 832 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:30.320 context of existing universities as opposed to you know, there's 833 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.360 still some real estate up in Redwood City where there's 834 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.639 a bunch of space to put biotech companies and just 835 00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.679 hiring people from all all backgrounds and saying hey, you know, 836 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:41.280 have at it and doing this stuff from scratch. I mean, 837 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.679 it's a very interesting decision to do this in the 838 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.280 context of an existing framework of like graduate students that 839 00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:49.480 need to do a thesis and get a first author paper, 840 00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:51.880 because there's a whole set of structures within academia that 841 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.199 I think both facilitate but also limit the progression of science. 842 00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:58.360 You know, that independent investigator model that we talked about 843 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:01.239 a little bit earlier, it's so core to the way 844 00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:03.599 science has been done. This is very different and frankly, 845 00:47:03.639 --> 00:47:06.519 sounds far more efficient if I'm to be completely honest. 846 00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:08.599 And you know, we'll see if I renew my NIH 847 00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:11.800 funding after saying that. But I think we all want 848 00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:13.920 the same thing. We all want to as scientists and 849 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:17.920 as you know, as humans, we want to understand the 850 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:22.400 way we work. And we want healthy people to persist 851 00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:24.159 to be healthy, and we want sick people to get healthy. 852 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.079 I mean, that's really ultimately the goal. It's not super complicated, 853 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:27.880 it's just hard to do. 854 00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:32.480 So the teams at the Biohub are actually independent of 855 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:35.719 the universities, got it. So each Biohub will

probably have 856 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:40.960 in total maybe fifty people working on sort of deep efforts. However, 857 00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:44.719 it's an acknowledgment that not all of the best scientists 858 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:48.880 who can contribute to this area are actually going to 859 00:47:49.039 --> 00:47:52.199 one want to leave a university or want to take 860 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:55.599 on the full time scope of this project. So it's 861 00:47:55.639 --> 00:48:01.559 the ability to partner with universities and to have the 862 00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:04.400 faculty at all the universities be able to contribute to 863 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.599 the overall project is how the bio Hub is structured. 864 00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:09.320 Got it. 865 00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:12.320 But a lot of the way that we're approaching CZI 866 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:16.280 is this long term iterative project to figure out try 867 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:19.320 a bunch of different things, figure out which things produce 868 00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:22.360 the most interesting results, and then double down on those 869 00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:26.280 in the next five year push. Right, So we just 870 00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:28.880 went through this period where we kind of wrapped up 871 00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:31.159 the first five years of the Science program, and we 872 00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:33.159 tried a lot of different models, right, all kinds of 873 00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:36.840 different things. And it's not that the biohub model. We 874 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:39.599 don't think it's like the best or only model, but 875 00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:43.119 we found that it was sort of a really interesting 876 00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:47.039 way to unlock a bunch of collaboration and bring some 877 00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:50.519 technical resources that allow for this longer term development. And 878 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:55.199 it's not something that is widely being pursued across the 879 00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:57.000 rest of the field. So we figured, Okay, this is 880 00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.840 like an interesting thing that we can help push on. 881 00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.199 I mean, yeah, we do believe in the collaboration, but 882 00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:07.639 I also think that we come at this with you know, 883 00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:09.559 we don't think that the way that we're pursuing this 884 00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:11.639 is like the only way to do this or the 885 00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:13.880 way that everyone should do it. We're pretty aware of 886 00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:17.519 you know that, you know, what is the rest of 887 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:19.639 the ecosystem and how we can play a unique role 888 00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:20.360 in it. 889 00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:22.880 It feels very synergistic with the way science has already 890 00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:26.599 done and also feels an incredibly important niche that frankly 891 00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:31.440 wasn't filled before along lines of implementation. So let's say 892 00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:37.400 your large language models combined with imaging tools reveal that 893 00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:41.719 a particular set of genes acting in a cluster I 894 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:45.079 don't know, set up an organ crash. Let's say the 895 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:49.360 pancreas crash as a particular stage of pancreatic cancer. I mean, 896 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:52.440 still one of the most deadliest of the cancers. And 897 00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:55.800 there are others that you certainly wouldn't want to get, 898 00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.880 but that's among the ones you wouldn't want to get 899 00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.840 the most. So you discover that and then and the 900 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.239 idea is that, Okay, Then AI reveals some potential drug 901 00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:07.760 targets then bear out in vitro, in a dish and 902 00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:12.039 in a mouse model. How is the actual implementation of 903 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:15.719 to drug discovery or even maybe this target is druggable, 904 00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:18.239 maybe it's not. Maybe and it requires some other approach, 905 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:22.840 you know, laser laser ablation approach or something we don't know. 906 00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:25.679 But ultimately, is CAZI going to be involved in the 907 00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.960 implementation of new therapeutics? Is that the idea I think les? 908 00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:32.960 So that's you know, this is where it's important to 909 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:35.559 work in an ecosystem and to know your own limitations. 910 00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.639 Like there are groups. 911 00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:41.599 And startups and companies that take that and bring it 912 00:50:41.639 --> 00:50:45.719 to translation very effectively. I would say the place where 913 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:49.159 we have a small window into that world is actually 914 00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:54.000 our work with rare disease groups. We we have through 915 00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:58.159 our ar as one portfolio funded Patient advocates to create 916 00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:06.480 rare disease organizations where patients come together and actually pool 917 00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:12.039 their collective experience. They build bioregistries, registries of their natural history, 918 00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:16.599 and they both partner with researchers to do the research 919 00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:22.360 about their disease and with drug developers to incentivize drug 920 00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:26.079 developers to focus on what they may need for their disease. 921 00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:28.880 And you know, one thing that's important to point out 922 00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.679 is that rare diseases aren't rare. They are over seven 923 00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:38.239 thousand rare diseases and collectively impact

many, many individuals. And 924 00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:44.559 I think the thing that's from a basic science perspective, 925 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:48.000 incredibly fascinating thing about rare diseases is that they're actually 926 00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:52.559 windows to how the body normally should work. And so 927 00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:58.679 there are often mutations that when genes that were when 928 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:03.159 they're mutated very specific diseases, but that tell you how 929 00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:05.199 the normal biology works as well. 930 00:52:05.639 --> 00:52:11.360 Got it. So you discussed basically that the goals major 931 00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:14.159 goals and initiatives of the CZI for the next five 932 00:52:14.199 --> 00:52:18.320 to ten years, and then beyond that the targets will 933 00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:21.760 be explored by biotech companies. They'll grab those targets and 934 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:23.800 test them and implement them. 935 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.639 They've also, I think been a couple of teams from 936 00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:29.480 the initial Biohub that were interested in spinning out ideas 937 00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:31.920 right into startups. So that's just it's even though it's 938 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:35.920 not a thing that we're going to pursue because we're 939 00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:39.880 a philanthropy, we want to enable the work that gets 940 00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:42.440 done to be able to get turned into companies and 941 00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:45.920 things that other people go take and and run towards 942 00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:50.440 towards building you know, ultimately therapeutics. So that's that's another zone. 943 00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:51.840 But that's just that's not a thing that we're going 944 00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:52.760 to do about it. 945 00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:58.119 I gather you're both optimist. Yeah, is that part of 946 00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.440 what brought you together? Forgive me for where you get 947 00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:03.039 switching to a personal question. But I love the optimism 948 00:53:03.639 --> 00:53:05.639 that it seems to sit at the root of the CZI. 949 00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.840 I will say that we are incredibly hopeful people, but 950 00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:13.599 it manifests in different ways between the two of us. 951 00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.840 Yeah, what do you how would you. 952 00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:18.519 Describe your optimism versus mine? 953 00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:20.159 It's not a loaded question. 954 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:33.199 I don't know, huh. I mean, I think I'm more 955 00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:37.840 probably technologically optimistic about what can be built. And I 956 00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:41.760 think you, because of your focus, as you know, an 957 00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:47.760 actual doctor, kind of have more of a sense of 958 00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:51.280 how that's going to affect actual people in their lives, 959 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:54.519 whereas for me, it's like, I mean, a lot of 960 00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:58.079 my work it is you know, it's like we touch 961 00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:01.079 a lot of people around the world, and the scale 962 00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:03.079 is sort of immense, and I think for you, just 963 00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:07.960 like it's like being able to improve the lives of individuals, 964 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.000 whether it's students at any of the schools that you've started, 965 00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:12.480 or any of the stuff that we've supported through the 966 00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:15.920 education work, which isn't the goal here, or you know, 967 00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:19.559 like just being able to improve people's lives in that way, 968 00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:21.360 I think is the thing that I've seen you be 969 00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:25.519 super passionate about. Does that Do you agree with that characterization? 970 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:26.400 I'm trying. I'm trying to. 971 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:30.079 Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's very fair. 972 00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:32.880 And I'm sort of giggling to myself because in a 973 00:54:33.039 --> 00:54:37.199 day to day life, as like life partners, our relative 974 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:42.840 optimism comes through as Mark just like is overly optimistic 975 00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:46.800 about his time management and will get engrossed in interesting ideas. 976 00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.159 I'm late and he's late, and. 977 00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:51.480 Every positions are very punctual. 978 00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.119 And because he's late, I have to channel Marks an 979 00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:56.519 optimist whenever I'm waiting for him. 980 00:54:56.639 --> 00:54:59.519 Such a nice way. Okay, I'll start using. 981 00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:00.519 That's I think. 982 00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:02.679 When I'm in the driveway with the kids waiting for you, 983 00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:06.960 I'm like, Mark is an optimist, and so his optimism 984 00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:11.760 translates to some tardiness, whereas I'm a sort of I'm like, 985 00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:12.920 how does what's? 986 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.559 How is? How is this going to happen? 987 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:16.719 Like I'm going to open a spreadsheet, I'm going to 988 00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:20.159 start putting together a plan and like putting pulling together 989 00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:23.639 all the pieces, calling people to sort of like bring 990 00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:25.199 something to life. But it is. 991 00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:29.800 It's one of my favorite quotes, that is optimists tend 992 00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:34.320 to be successful and pessimists tend to be right. And yeah, 993 00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:35.960 I mean I think it's It's true in a lot 994 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.159 of different aspects of life. 995 00:55:38.320 -->

00:55:41.559 Right, Who said that? Did you say that? Mark? I? 996 00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:45.760 I like it. I did not invent it. 997 00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.199 We'll give it to you, We'll put it out, But 998 00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:52.920 I do think that there's really something to it, right, 999 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:56.199 And there's like, if you're discussing any idea, there's all 1000 00:55:56.199 --> 00:55:59.480 these reasons why it might not work, And so I 1001 00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:03.039 I think that and those reasons are you know, probably 1002 00:56:03.079 --> 00:56:06.280 true that people are stating them, are you know, probably 1003 00:56:06.280 --> 00:56:07.400 have some validity to it. 1004 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:09.639 But the question is that is that the most productive 1005 00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:12.039 way to view the world? And you know, I think 1006 00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:14.480 across the board, and I think the people who tend 1007 00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:16.639 to be the most productive and get the most done. 1008 00:56:17.480 --> 00:56:19.239 You kind of need to be optimistic because if you 1009 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:21.719 don't believe that someone can get done, then why would 1010 00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:22.480 you go work on it. 1011 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:25.079 The reason I asked the question is that you know 1012 00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:26.960 that these days we hear a lot about you know, 1013 00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:30.199 the future is looking so dark in these various ways. 1014 00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:34.480 And you have children, so you have families and you 1015 00:56:34.559 --> 00:56:37.559 are a family excuse me, and you also have families 1016 00:56:37.559 --> 00:56:42.239 independently that are now merged. But I love the optimism 1017 00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:47.119 behind the CZI because you know, you know, behind all 1018 00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:49.519 this that there's sort of a set of big statements 1019 00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:52.440 on the wall. One the future can be better than 1020 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:56.320 the present in terms of treating disease. Maybe even you said, 1021 00:56:56.360 --> 00:57:01.840 eliminating diseases, all diseases. I love that optimism and that 1022 00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:04.800 there's a tractable path to do it, Like we're going 1023 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.880 to put literally, you know, money and time and energy 1024 00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:12.000 and people and technology and AI behind that. And so 1025 00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:19.559 I have to ask, was having children a significant modifier 1026 00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:21.519 in terms of your view of the future, Like, Wow, 1027 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:23.000 like you hear all this dooming gloom, Like what's the 1028 00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:25.840 future going to be like for them? Did you sit 1029 00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:28.039 back and think, you know, what would it look like 1030 00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:30.880 if there was a

future with no diseases? Is that 1031 00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:32.800 the future we want our children in. I mean, I'm 1032 00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:34.800 voting a big gas, so we're not gonna we're not 1033 00:57:34.840 --> 00:57:37.199 going to debate that at all. But was having children 1034 00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:39.920 sort of an inspiration for the CCI in some way? 1035 00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:42.000 Yeah? 1036 00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:45.719 So I think my answer to that I would dial 1037 00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:49.840 backwards for me. And I'll just tell a very brief 1038 00:57:50.159 --> 00:57:54.360 story about my family. I'm the daughter of Chinese Vietnamese refugees. 1039 00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:59.480 My parents and grandparents were both people if you remember, 1040 00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:03.119 people Vietnam during the war in these small boats into 1041 00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:08.800 the South China Sea, and there were stories about how 1042 00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:11.480 these boats would sync with whole families on them, and 1043 00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:14.199 so my grandparents, who boats had their grandparents who knew 1044 00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:18.119 each other, decided that there was a better future out 1045 00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:20.199 there and they were willing to take a risk for it, 1046 00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:23.760 but they were afraid of losing all of their kids. 1047 00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:26.559 My dad is one of six, my mom is one 1048 00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:32.079 of ten, And so they decided that there was something 1049 00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:35.159 out there in this bleak time, and they paired up 1050 00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:38.880 their kids, one from each family and sent them out 1051 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:43.840 on these little boats before the internet, before cell phones, 1052 00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:46.679 and just said we'll see you on the other side. 1053 00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:47.400 Wow. 1054 00:58:48.039 --> 00:58:51.599 And the kids were between the ages of like, you know, 1055 00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:55.880 ten to twenty five, so young kids. My mom was 1056 00:58:55.880 --> 00:59:01.079 a teenager at early teen when this happened, and everyone 1057 00:59:01.159 --> 00:59:01.519 made it. 1058 00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:03.000 And I get to sit here and talk to. 1059 00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:07.519 You, so how could I not believe that, like better 1060 00:59:07.679 --> 00:59:10.199 is possible, and like I hope that that's in my 1061 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:12.320 like epigenetic somewhere. 1062 00:59:11.960 --> 00:59:12.880 And then I carry that on. 1063 00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:17.039 That is a spectacular story, Isn't that wild? It is spectacular? 1064 00:59:17.079 --> 00:59:18.400 How can I be a pessimist with that? 1065 00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.079 I love it? And I so appreciate that you became 1066 00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:26.280 a physician, because you're now bringing that optimism and epigenetic 1067 00:59:26.519 -->

00:59:30.159 understanding and cognitive understanding and emotional understanding to the field 1068 00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:34.199 of medicine. So I'm grateful to the people that made 1069 00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:34.760 that decision. 1070 00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:37.800 Yeah, and then you know, when I think you don't really, 1071 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:41.559 I've always known that story, but you don't understand how 1072 00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:44.079 wild that feels until you have your own child and 1073 00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:47.039 you're like, well, I can't even I refuse to let 1074 00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:50.840 her use you know, glass bottles only or something like that, 1075 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:51.639 And you're. 1076 00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:52.360 Like, oh my god. 1077 00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:55.880 Like the risk and the sort of willingness of my 1078 00:59:55.920 --> 01:00:00.840 grandparents to believe in something bigger and better is just astounding, 1079 01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:03.199 and as our own children sort of give it a 1080 01:00:03.239 --> 01:00:07.920 sense of urgency. 1081 01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:10.000 And spectacular story. And you're sending knowledge out into the 1082 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:12.360 fields of science and bringing knowledge into the fields of science, 1083 01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:15.039 and I love this. We'll see you on the other side. 1084 01:00:15.440 --> 01:00:19.880 I'm confident that it will all come back. Well, thank 1085 01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:23.880 you so much for that. I Marko, you have the 1086 01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:27.400 opportunity to talk about having kids change your worldview. 1087 01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:29.760 And it's really tough to beat that story. It is 1088 01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:30.880 tough to beat that story. 1089 01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:33.239 And they are also your children, so in this case, 1090 01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:36.599 you know, you get the two for the price of one, 1091 01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:37.199 so to speak. 1092 01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:41.719 So having children definitely changes your time horizon something that 1093 01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:43.840 that's one thing is you just like there are all 1094 01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:46.840 these things that I think we had talked about for 1095 01:00:46.840 --> 01:00:48.880 as long as we've known each other that you eventually 1096 01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:50.719 want to go do. But then it's like, oh, we're 1097 01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:53.480 having kids, we need to get on this right, so 1098 01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:54.119 I have theirs. 1099 01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:56.960 That was actually one of the checklists, the baby checklist 1100 01:00:57.000 --> 01:00:58.000 before the first it. 1101 01:00:58.039 --> 01:00:59.960 Was like, the baby's coming, you have to like start. 1102 01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:04.679 It's ez I truly and like sitting in the hospital 1103 01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:09.119 delivery room finishing editing the letter that we

were going 1104 01:01:09.159 --> 01:01:12.079 to publish to announce those That. 1105 01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:15.360 Is an exaggeration, it was not. We really were editing 1106 01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:16.320 the final drafts. 1107 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:23.599 Birth Well, it's it's an incredible initiative. I've I've been 1108 01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:28.320 following it since its inception and and it's already been 1109 01:01:28.360 --> 01:01:31.719 tremendously successful. And everyone in the field of science and 1110 01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:33.480 I have a lot of communication with those folks. It 1111 01:01:33.519 --> 01:01:36.440 feels the same way, and the future is even brighter 1112 01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:38.159 for it. It's clear, and thank you for expanding to 1113 01:01:38.199 --> 01:01:42.760 the Midwest and New York and we're all very excited 1114 01:01:42.800 --> 01:01:44.639 to see where all of this goes. I share in 1115 01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.280 your optimism and thank you for your time. 1116 01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:49.119 Today, Thank you, thank you. 1117 01:01:49.239 --> 01:01:51.960 A lot more to do, and now for my discussion 1118 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:57.320 with Mark Zuckerberg. Slight shift of topic here. You're extremely 1119 01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:01.480 well known for your role in technology development, but by 1120 01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:06.880 virtue of your personal interests and also where meta technology 1121 01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:10.400 interfaces with mental health and physical health, you're starting to 1122 01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:14.280 become synonymous with health, whether you realize it or not. 1123 01:02:15.000 --> 01:02:18.400 Part of that is because there's post footage of you 1124 01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:21.760 rolling jiu jitsu. You want a jiu jitsu competition. Recently, 1125 01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:27.840 you're doing other forms of martial arts, water sports, in cleaning, surfing, 1126 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:33.159 and on and on, so you're doing it yourself. But 1127 01:02:33.639 --> 01:02:37.519 maybe we could just start off with technology and get 1128 01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:40.920 this issue out of the way first, which is that 1129 01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:45.519 I think many people assume that technology, especially technology that 1130 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:49.119 involves a screen excuse me of any kind, is going 1131 01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:53.599 to be detrimental to our health. But that doesn't necessarily 1132 01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:56.280 have to be the case. So could you explain how 1133 01:02:56.280 --> 01:03:02.519 you see technology meshing with inhibiting or maybe even promoting 1134 01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:04.440 physical and mental health. 1135 01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:09.280 Sure, I mean, I think this is a really important topic. 1136 01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:14.000 It's you know, the research that we've done suggests that 1137 01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.360 it's not like all good or all bad. I

think 1138 01:03:17.400 --> 01:03:20.320 how you're using the technology has a big impact on 1139 01:03:20.599 --> 01:03:25.440 whether it is basically a positive experience for you. And 1140 01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:28.519 even within technology, even within social media, there's not kind 1141 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:30.880 of one type of thing that people do. I think 1142 01:03:30.920 --> 01:03:36.679 at its best, you're forming meaningful connections with other people, 1143 01:03:37.000 --> 01:03:39.880 and you know, there's a lot of research that basically 1144 01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:42.880 suggests that, you know, it's it's the relationships that we 1145 01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:47.119 have and friendships that kind of bring the most happiness 1146 01:03:47.320 --> 01:03:50.679 and in our lives and at some level end up 1147 01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:53.599 even correlating with living a longer and healthier life because 1148 01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:55.920 you know, that kind of grounding that you have in 1149 01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.400 community ends up being important for that. So like that 1150 01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:02.760 that aspect of social media, which is you know, the 1151 01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:05.840 ability to connect with people, to understand what's going on 1152 01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:09.119 in people's lives, have empathy for them, communicate what's going 1153 01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:13.119 on with your life. Express that that's generally positive. There 1154 01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:15.960 are ways that it can be negative in terms of 1155 01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:19.960 bad interactions, things like bullying, which we can talk about 1156 01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:21.800 because there's a lot that we've done to basically make 1157 01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:24.000 sure that people can be safe from that and give 1158 01:04:24.039 --> 01:04:26.840 people tools and give kids ability to have the right 1159 01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:29.639 parental controls that their parents can oversee that. But that's 1160 01:04:29.639 --> 01:04:33.400 sort of the interacting with people's side. There's another side 1161 01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:36.320 of all this, which I think of is just like 1162 01:04:37.400 --> 01:04:43.239 passive consumption, which at its best, it's entertainment, right, And 1163 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:46.599 entertainment is an important human thing too, But I don't 1164 01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:50.599 think that that has quite the same association with the 1165 01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:56.360 long term well being and health benefits as being able 1166 01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.639 to help people connect with other people does. And I 1167 01:04:59.639 --> 01:05:05.800 think it's worst some of the stuff that we see online. 1168 01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:09.280 I think these days, a lot of the news is 1169 01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:13.519 just so relentlessly negative that it's just hard to you know, 1170 01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:16.320 come away from an

experience where you're, you know, looking 1171 01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:19.280 at the news for half an hour and like feel 1172 01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:23.440 better about the world. So I think that there's a 1173 01:05:23.480 --> 01:05:27.039 mix on this. I think the more that social media 1174 01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:32.360 is about connecting with people, and the more that when 1175 01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:36.119 you're kind of consuming and using the media part of 1176 01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:40.079 social media to learn about things that kind of enrich 1177 01:05:40.159 --> 01:05:44.000 you and can provide inspiration or education as opposed to 1178 01:05:44.039 --> 01:05:47.519 things that just leave you with a more toxic feeling. 1179 01:05:48.400 --> 01:05:50.800 That that's sort of the the balance that we try 1180 01:05:50.840 --> 01:05:53.639 to get right across our products, and I think we're 1181 01:05:53.639 --> 01:05:55.599 pretty aligned with the community, because at the end of 1182 01:05:55.639 --> 01:05:57.760 the day, you know, I mean, people don't want to 1183 01:05:58.000 --> 01:06:00.360 use a product and come away feeling bad. You know, 1184 01:06:00.360 --> 01:06:04.880 there's a lot that people talk about valuate a lot 1185 01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:07.800 of these products in terms of information and utility, but 1186 01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:10.480 I think it's as important when you're designing a product 1187 01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:13.800 to think about what kind of feeling you're creating with 1188 01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:16.280 the people who use it, right, whether that's kind of 1189 01:06:16.280 --> 01:06:19.360 an aesthetic sense when you're designing hardware, or just kind 1190 01:06:19.360 --> 01:06:22.199 of like what, like what do you make people feel? 1191 01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:24.960 And generally people don't want to feel bad, right, So 1192 01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:27.480 I think when you know, that doesn't mean that we 1193 01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:30.039 want to shelter people from bad things that are happening 1194 01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:33.800 in the world. But I don't really think that, you know, 1195 01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:36.920 it's not what people want, you know, for us to 1196 01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.280 just be kind of just showing like all this super 1197 01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:43.840 negative stuff all day long. So we work hard on 1198 01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:45.880 all these different problems, you know, making sure that we're 1199 01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:48.719 helping connect people as best as possible, helping make sure 1200 01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:52.199 that we give people good tools to block people who 1201 01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:54.880 might be bullying them or harass them, or especially for 1202 01:06:54.960 --> 01:06:57.239 younger folks, you know, anyone under the age of sixteen 1203 01:06:57.320 --> 01:07:00.159 defaults into an experience where their experience is private. We 1204 01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:03.400 have all these parental tools so that way, you know, 1205 01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:06.079 parents can can kind of understand what their children is 1206 01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:08.239 up to and are up to in a good balance. 1207 01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:11.800 And then on the other side, we try to give 1208 01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:15.679 people tools to understand how they're spending their time, and 1209 01:07:15.719 --> 01:07:17.559 we try to give people tools so that you know, 1210 01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:19.719 if you're if you're a teen and you're kind of 1211 01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:23.119 stuck in some you know, loop of just looking at 1212 01:07:23.119 --> 01:07:24.960 one type of content, will nudge you and say, hey, 1213 01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:27.000 you've been looking at content of this type for a while, 1214 01:07:27.360 --> 01:07:29.519 Like how about something else? And here's here's a bunch 1215 01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:31.400 of other examples. So I think that there were things 1216 01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:32.679 that you can do to kind of push this in 1217 01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:34.559 a positive direction. But I think it just starts with 1218 01:07:35.480 --> 01:07:38.000 having a more nuanced view of like this isn't all 1219 01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:40.559 good or all bad, and the more that you can 1220 01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:43.079 make it kind of a positive thing, the better this 1221 01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:44.920 will be for all the people who use our products. 1222 01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:48.400 That makes really good sense. In terms of the negative experience, 1223 01:07:48.440 --> 01:07:51.400 I agree. I don't think anyone wants a negative experience 1224 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:54.880 in the moment. I think where some people get concerned perhaps, 1225 01:07:55.079 --> 01:07:57.400 And I think about my own interactions with say Instagram, 1226 01:07:57.400 --> 01:08:00.639 which I use all the time forgetting information out but 1227 01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:03.239 also consuming information, and I happen to love it. It's 1228 01:08:03.239 --> 01:08:06.800 where I essentially launched the non podcast segment of my 1229 01:08:06.840 --> 01:08:10.880 podcast and continue to. I can think of the experiences 1230 01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:14.599 that are a little bit like highly processed food, where 1231 01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:18.680 it tastes good at the time it's it's highly engrossing, 1232 01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:22.640 but it's not necessarily nutritious, and you don't feel very 1233 01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:26.960 good afterwards. So for me, that would be the little 1234 01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:30.680 collage of default options to click on and Instagram. Occasionally 1235 01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:34.479 I noticed and this just reflects my failure not instagrams 1236 01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:38.079 right that there are a lot of like street fight things, 1237 01:08:38.119 --> 01:08:40.600 like of people beating people up on the

street, and 1238 01:08:40.680 --> 01:08:43.479 I have to say, these have a very strong gravitational pull. 1239 01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:46.199 I'm not somebody that enjoys seeing violence per se, but 1240 01:08:46.720 --> 01:08:48.800 you know, I find myself I'll click on one of 1241 01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:51.079 these like what happened, and I'll see someone like you know, 1242 01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:53.239 get hit and there's like a little melee on the 1243 01:08:53.239 --> 01:08:55.560 street or something. And those seem to be offered to 1244 01:08:55.600 --> 01:08:57.800 me a lot lately, and again this is my fault. 1245 01:08:57.800 --> 01:09:01.520 It reflects my prior searching experience. But I noticed that 1246 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:05.920 it has a bit of a gravitational pull where you know, 1247 01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:08.000 there's no I didn't learn anything. It's not teaching me 1248 01:09:08.039 --> 01:09:12.319 any kind of useful street self defense skills of any kind. 1249 01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:17.239 And at the same time, I also really enjoy some 1250 01:09:17.279 --> 01:09:19.359 of the cute animal stuff, and so I get a 1251 01:09:19.399 --> 01:09:21.840 lot of those also, So there's this polarized, you know, 1252 01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:25.359 collage that's offered to me that reflects my prior search behavior. 1253 01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:30.479 You could argue that the cute animal stuff is just entertainment, 1254 01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:33.279 but actually it fills me with a feeling in some 1255 01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:35.840 cases that truly delights me. I delight in animals, and 1256 01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:37.640 we're not just talking about kittens. I mean animals I've 1257 01:09:37.680 --> 01:09:41.039 never seen before, Interactions between animals I've never seen before 1258 01:09:41.039 --> 01:09:43.279 that truly delight me. They energize me in a positive 1259 01:09:43.319 --> 01:09:46.199 way that when I leave Instagram, I do think I'm 1260 01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:49.159 better off. So I'm grateful for the algorithm in that sense. 1261 01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:53.600 But I guess the direct question is is the algorithm 1262 01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:56.600 just reflective of what one has been looking at a 1263 01:09:56.640 --> 01:09:59.680 lot prior to that moment where they log on, or 1264 01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:03.159 is it also trying to do exactly what you described, 1265 01:10:03.159 --> 01:10:06.279 which is trying to give people a good feeling experience 1266 01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:08.279 that leads to more good feelings. 1267 01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:10.600 Yeah, I mean, I think we try to do this 1268 01:10:10.640 --> 01:10:13.319 in a long term way, right. I think one simple 1269 01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:17.039 example of this is we had this issue a number 1270 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:20.800 of years back about clickbait news, right, so articles that 1271 01:10:20.840 --> 01:10:26.560 would have you know, basically a headline that grabbed your attention, 1272 01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:28.039 that made you feel like, oh, I need to click 1273 01:10:28.039 --> 01:10:29.640 on this, and then you click on it, and then 1274 01:10:29.640 --> 01:10:32.119 the article is actually, you know, about something that's somewhat 1275 01:10:32.119 --> 01:10:35.800 tangential to it, but people clicked on it, so, you know, 1276 01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:37.800 the naive version of this stuff, you know, the like 1277 01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:40.159 ten year old version, it was like, oh, people seem 1278 01:10:40.199 --> 01:10:43.159 to be clicking on this. Maybe that's good, but it's 1279 01:10:43.159 --> 01:10:45.960 actually a pretty straightforward exercise to instrument the system to 1280 01:10:46.000 --> 01:10:49.319 realize that, hey, people click on this, and then you know, 1281 01:10:49.399 --> 01:10:52.359 they don't really spend a lot of time reading the 1282 01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:57.279 news that after clicking on it, and after they do 1283 01:10:57.319 --> 01:10:59.880 this a few times, they you know, it doesn't really 1284 01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:02.279 correlate with them, you know, saying that they're having a 1285 01:11:02.319 --> 01:11:06.479 good experience. Some of you. Some of how we measure 1286 01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:10.119 this is just by looking at how people use the services, 1287 01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:13.560 but it's also important to balance that by having like 1288 01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:16.800 real people come in and you tell us, Okay, we 1289 01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:18.560 show them. Here are the stories that we could have 1290 01:11:18.600 --> 01:11:22.840 showed you. Which of these are most meaningful to you 1291 01:11:23.119 --> 01:11:25.159 or would make it so that you have the best experience, 1292 01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:28.319 and just kind of like mapping the algorithm and what 1293 01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:30.239 we do to that ground truth of what people say 1294 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:33.159 that they want. So I think that through a set 1295 01:11:33.199 --> 01:11:36.560 of things like that, we really have amide large steps 1296 01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:39.279 to minimize things like clickbait. Over time, it's not gone 1297 01:11:39.279 --> 01:11:41.119 from the Internet, but I think we've done a good 1298 01:11:41.199 --> 01:11:45.119 job of minimizing it on our services. Within that though, 1299 01:11:45.880 --> 01:11:47.359 I do think that we need to be pretty careful 1300 01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:51.760 about not being paternalistic about what makes different people feel good. Right, So, 1301 01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:54.800 I mean, I don't know that everyone feels good about 1302 01:11:55.199 --> 01:11:57.520 cute animals, and I can't imagine that people would feel 1303 01:11:57.600 --> 01:11:59.560 really bad about it, but maybe they don't have as profound, 1304 01:11:59.560 --> 01:12:02.319 if a posit set of reaction to it as you 1305 01:12:02.439

--> 01:12:07.119 just expressed. And I don't know, maybe people who are 1306 01:12:07.119 --> 01:12:10.199 more into fighting would look at the street fighting videos 1307 01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:12.359 assuming that they're within our community standards. I think that 1308 01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:14.119 there's a level of violence that we just don't want 1309 01:12:14.119 --> 01:12:16.640 to be showing at all. But that's a separate question. 1310 01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:19.680 But if they are, I mean, then you know, it's like, 1311 01:12:19.760 --> 01:12:22.319 I'm pretty into MMA. I don't get a lot of 1312 01:12:22.359 --> 01:12:24.520 street fighting videos, but if I did, maybe I'd feel 1313 01:12:24.520 --> 01:12:28.319 like I was learning something from that. I think at 1314 01:12:28.399 --> 01:12:31.720 various times in the company's history we've been a little 1315 01:12:31.720 --> 01:12:36.359 bit too paternalistic about saying this is good content, this 1316 01:12:36.439 --> 01:12:40.600 is bad, you should like this, this is unhealthy for you. 1317 01:12:41.119 --> 01:12:44.600 And I think that we want to look at the 1318 01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:46.119 long term effects, so you don't want to get stuck 1319 01:12:46.159 --> 01:12:48.279 in a short term loop of like, Okay, just because 1320 01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:49.960 you did this today doesn't mean it's like what you 1321 01:12:50.159 --> 01:12:54.279 aspire for yourself over time. But I think as long 1322 01:12:54.319 --> 01:12:56.560 as you look at the long term of what people 1323 01:12:56.560 --> 01:12:59.840 both say they want and what they do, giving people 1324 01:12:59.840 --> 01:13:02.000 a fair amount of latitude to like the things that 1325 01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:04.920 they like, I just think feels like the right set 1326 01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:06.079 of values to bring to this. 1327 01:13:07.560 --> 01:13:07.680 Now. 1328 01:13:07.720 --> 01:13:09.479 Of course, that doesn't go for everything. There are things 1329 01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:12.439 that are kind of truly off limits. And you know, 1330 01:13:12.479 --> 01:13:15.920 things that you know like bullying for example, or you 1331 01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:18.479 know things that are really like inciting violence things like that. 1332 01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:20.520 I mean, we have the whole community standards around this, 1333 01:13:21.079 --> 01:13:24.199 but I think except for those things which I would 1334 01:13:24.760 --> 01:13:27.319 hope that most people can agree, Okay, bullying is bad, right, 1335 01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:30.279 I hope that you know, one hundred percent of people 1336 01:13:30.279 --> 01:13:32.279 agree with that, and you know, not one hundred maybe 1337 01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:35.479 ninety nine percent. Except for the things that kind of 1338 01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:41.279 get that sort of very that feel pretty extreme and 1339 01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:43.000 bad like that, I think you want to give people 1340 01:13:43.000 --> 01:13:44.439 space to like what they want to like. 1341 01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:49.399 Yesterday, I had the very good experience of learning from 1342 01:13:49.399 --> 01:13:52.359 the Meta team about safety protections that are in place 1343 01:13:52.399 --> 01:13:58.039 for kids who are using meta platforms, and frankly, I 1344 01:13:58.119 --> 01:14:02.079 was like really positively surprised at the huge number of 1345 01:14:02.800 --> 01:14:07.880 filter based tools and just ability to customize the experience 1346 01:14:07.880 --> 01:14:10.720 so that it can stand the best chance of enriching 1347 01:14:10.840 --> 01:14:15.680 not just remaining neutral, but enriching their mental health status. 1348 01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:19.439 One thing that came about in that conversation, however, was 1349 01:14:20.239 --> 01:14:23.600 I realized that all these tools, but do people really 1350 01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:25.359 know that these tools exist? And I think about my 1351 01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:29.840 own experience with Instagram. I love watching Adamisari's Friday Q 1352 01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:32.439 and A's because he explains a lot of the tools 1353 01:14:33.000 --> 01:14:38.079 that I didn't know existed, and people haven't seen that, 1354 01:14:38.079 --> 01:14:40.960 I highly recommend that they watch that. I think every 1355 01:14:41.119 --> 01:14:43.880 takes questions on Thursdays and answers them most every Fridays. 1356 01:14:45.159 --> 01:14:48.239 So if I'm not aware of the tools without watching 1357 01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:53.479 that that exists for adults, how does meta look at 1358 01:14:53.479 --> 01:14:55.439 the challenge of making sure that people know that they're 1359 01:14:55.479 --> 01:14:57.800 all these tools? I mean dozens and dozens of very 1360 01:14:57.880 --> 01:14:59.760 useful tools. But I think most of us just know 1361 01:14:59.840 --> 01:15:05.560 that hashtag, the tag, the click stories versus feed. We 1362 01:15:05.640 --> 01:15:08.159 now know that you know I also post to threads. 1363 01:15:08.199 --> 01:15:10.479 I mean, so we know the major channels and tools. 1364 01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:13.560 But this is like owning a vehicle that has incredible 1365 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:16.920 features that one doesn't realize can take you off road, 1366 01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:19.159 can allow your vehicle to fly. I mean, there's a 1367 01:15:19.199 --> 01:15:22.000 lot there. So what could what do you think could 1368 01:15:22.000 --> 01:15:24.079 be done to get that information out? Maybe this conversation 1369 01:15:24.199 --> 01:15:26.199 could cue people to I mean that's. 1370 01:15:26.079 --> 01:15:27.800 As part part of the reason why I wanted to 1371 01:15:28.079 --> 01:15:29.560 talk to you about this is, I mean, I think 1372 01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:33.640 most of the narrative around social media is not okay, 1373 01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:36.399 all the different tools that people

have to control their experience, 1374 01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:39.560 it's you know, the kind of narrative of is this 1375 01:15:39.800 --> 01:15:43.239 just negative for for for teens or something, and and 1376 01:15:43.319 --> 01:15:44.880 I think again a lot of this comes down to, 1377 01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:48.399 you know, do you know how is the experience being 1378 01:15:48.439 --> 01:15:51.520 tuned and is it actually you know, like, are people 1379 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:53.880 using it to connect in positive ways? And if so, 1380 01:15:53.920 --> 01:15:57.439 I think it's really positive. So yeah, I mean I 1381 01:15:57.439 --> 01:15:59.399 think part of this is we probably just need to 1382 01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:02.399 get out and talk to people more about it. And 1383 01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:05.239 then there's an in product aspect, which is, you know, 1384 01:16:05.279 --> 01:16:08.119 if you're a team and you sign up, we take 1385 01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:12.960 you through a pretty you know, extensive experience that tries 1386 01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:15.920 to outline some of this, but that is limits too, right, 1387 01:16:15.960 --> 01:16:18.399 because when you sign up for a new thing, if 1388 01:16:18.439 --> 01:16:21.560 you're bombarded with like here's a list of features, you're like, okay, 1389 01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:23.960 I just sign up for this. I don't really understand 1390 01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:26.039 much about what the services like let me go find 1391 01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:29.359 some people to follow, who are my friends on here? 1392 01:16:29.479 --> 01:16:32.640 Before I like learn about controls to prevent people from 1393 01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:36.880 harassing me or something. That's why I think it's really 1394 01:16:36.920 --> 01:16:41.520 important to also show a bunch of these tools in context, 1395 01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:46.119 so you know, if you're looking at comments and you know, 1396 01:16:46.199 --> 01:16:48.119 if you if you go to you know, delete a 1397 01:16:48.159 --> 01:16:51.239 comment or you go to edit something, you know, try 1398 01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:53.199 to give people prompts in line that's like, hey, did 1399 01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:55.640 you know that you can manage things in these ways 1400 01:16:56.479 --> 01:16:58.560 around that? Or when you're in the inbox and you're 1401 01:16:58.640 --> 01:17:02.680 filtering something, right, it's remind people in line. So not 1402 01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:05.479 just because of the number of people who use the 1403 01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:08.359 products and the level of nuance around each to the controls, 1404 01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:13.000 I think the vast majority of that education I think 1405 01:17:13.359 --> 01:17:15.600 needs to happen in the product. But I do think 1406 01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:18.880 that through conversations like this and others that you know 1407 01:17:18.920 --> 01:17:22.000 we need to be doing, we can create a broader 1408 01:17:22.600 --> 01:17:25.000 awareness that those things exist. So that way, at least 1409 01:17:25.000 --> 01:17:27.439 people are primed. So that way, when those things pop 1410 01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:28.960 up in the product, people like, oh, yeah, like I 1411 01:17:29.039 --> 01:17:31.479 knew that there was this control and like here's here's 1412 01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:32.680 like how I would use that. 1413 01:17:33.479 --> 01:17:35.880 Like I find the restrict function to be very useful 1414 01:17:36.680 --> 01:17:39.680 more than the block function in most cases. I do sometimes, 1415 01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:42.279 but the restrict function is really useful that you could 1416 01:17:42.439 --> 01:17:45.880 filter specific comments you know someone might have it. You 1417 01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:48.119 might recognize that someone has a tendency to be a 1418 01:17:48.159 --> 01:17:50.239 little aggressive, and I should point out that I actually 1419 01:17:50.239 --> 01:17:51.800 don't really mind what people say to me, but I 1420 01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:54.520 try and maintain what I call classroom rules in my 1421 01:17:54.600 --> 01:17:56.760 comment section, where I don't like people attacking other people 1422 01:17:56.800 --> 01:17:59.079 because I would never tolerate that in the university classroom. 1423 01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:01.479 I'm not going to tolerate them comment section for instance. 1424 01:18:01.640 --> 01:18:03.600 Yeah, and I think that the example that you just 1425 01:18:04.880 --> 01:18:07.640 you just used about restrict versus block gets to something 1426 01:18:07.680 --> 01:18:11.560 about product design that's important too, which is that block 1427 01:18:11.840 --> 01:18:15.479 is sort of this very powerful tool that if someone 1428 01:18:15.560 --> 01:18:16.960 is giving you a hard time and you just want 1429 01:18:16.960 --> 01:18:19.039 them to disappear from the experience, you can do it. 1430 01:18:19.640 --> 01:18:24.199 But the design trade off with that is that in 1431 01:18:24.279 --> 01:18:25.920 order to make it so that the person is just 1432 01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:31.000 gone from the experience and that you don't show up 1433 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:33.840 to them, they don't show up to you. Inherent to 1434 01:18:33.880 --> 01:18:36.479 that is that they will have a sense that you 1435 01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:39.920 block them. And that's why I think some stuff like 1436 01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:42.279 restrict or just filtering, like I just don't want to 1437 01:18:42.279 --> 01:18:45.199 see as much stuff about this topic. You know, people 1438 01:18:45.439 --> 01:18:48.520 like using different tools for very subtle reasons, right, I mean, 1439 01:18:48.560 --> 01:18:51.199 maybe maybe you want the content to not show up, 1440 01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:54.079 but you don't want the person who's posting the content 1441 01:18:54.119 --> 01:18:55.720 to know that you don't want it to show up.

1442 01:18:56.239 --> 01:18:57.720 Maybe you don't want to get the messages in your 1443 01:18:57.720 --> 01:18:59.640 main inbox, but you don't want to tell the person 1444 01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:02.680 that you like that you actually you know you're that 1445 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:04.760 you're not friends or something like that. I mean, you 1446 01:19:04.920 --> 01:19:07.600 actually need to give people different tools that have different 1447 01:19:07.680 --> 01:19:12.359 levels of kind of power and nuance around how the 1448 01:19:12.399 --> 01:19:16.039 social dynamics are on using them play out in order 1449 01:19:16.119 --> 01:19:18.560 to really allow people to tailor the experience and the 1450 01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:19.319 ways that they want. 1451 01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:22.760 In terms of trying to limit total amount of time 1452 01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:27.840 on social media, I couldn't find really good data on this. 1453 01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:31.039 You know, how much time is too much? I mean, 1454 01:19:31.159 --> 01:19:33.079 I think it's going to depend on what one is 1455 01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:35.560 looking at, the age of the user, et cetera. But 1456 01:19:35.640 --> 01:19:40.039 I note that you have tools that queue the user 1457 01:19:40.119 --> 01:19:43.359 to how long they've been on a given platform. Are 1458 01:19:43.399 --> 01:19:46.399 there tools to self regulate like I'm thinking about like 1459 01:19:46.479 --> 01:19:48.800 the Greek myth of the sirens and you know people 1460 01:19:48.920 --> 01:19:51.000 you know, tying themselves to the mast and covering their 1461 01:19:51.000 --> 01:19:53.000 eyes so that they're not drawn in by the sirens. 1462 01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:56.159 Is there a function aside from deleting the app temporarily 1463 01:19:56.359 --> 01:19:58.840 and then reinstalling it every every time you want to 1464 01:19:58.920 --> 01:20:02.119 use it again, is there a true lockout self lockout 1465 01:20:02.159 --> 01:20:04.800 function where one can lock themselves out of access to 1466 01:20:04.840 --> 01:20:05.239 the app? 1467 01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:08.000 Well, I think we give people tools that let them 1468 01:20:08.239 --> 01:20:11.079 manage this, and and there's the tools that you get 1469 01:20:11.079 --> 01:20:12.800 to use them. There's the tools that the parents get 1470 01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:17.279 to use to basically see how the usage works. But yeah, 1471 01:20:17.279 --> 01:20:19.640 I think that there's there's different kind of and I 1472 01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:23.000 think for now we've mostly focused on helping people understand 1473 01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:25.600 this and then give people reminders and things like that. 1474 01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:31.960 It's tough, though, to answer the question that you were 1475 01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:34.119 talking about before this is there an amount of time 1476 01:20:34.159 --> 01:20:36.760 which is too much because it does really get

to 1477 01:20:36.760 --> 01:20:40.359 what you're doing. But if you fast forward beyond just 1478 01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:43.279 the apps that we have today to an experience that 1479 01:20:43.560 --> 01:20:46.479 there's like a social experience in the future of the 1480 01:20:46.520 --> 01:20:50.479 augmented reality glasses or something that we're building, a lot 1481 01:20:50.479 --> 01:20:54.199 of this is going to be. You know, you're interacting 1482 01:20:54.199 --> 01:20:57.439 with people in the way that you would physically as 1483 01:20:57.560 --> 01:20:59.359 if you were kind of like hang out with friends 1484 01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:03.680 or working with people, but now they can show up 1485 01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:05.840 as holograms and you can feel like you're present right 1486 01:21:05.840 --> 01:21:09.000 there with them, no matter where they actually are, and 1487 01:21:09.039 --> 01:21:12.000 the question is is there too much time to spend 1488 01:21:12.079 --> 01:21:15.439 interacting with people like that? Well, at the limit, if 1489 01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:18.079 we can get that experience to be kind of as 1490 01:21:18.199 --> 01:21:20.600 rich and giving you as good of a sense of 1491 01:21:20.680 --> 01:21:24.720 presence as you would have if you were physically there 1492 01:21:24.760 --> 01:21:28.279 with someone, then I don't see why you would want 1493 01:21:28.319 --> 01:21:31.359 to restrict the amount that people use that technology to 1494 01:21:31.479 --> 01:21:35.239 any less than what would be the amount of time 1495 01:21:35.319 --> 01:21:39.439 that you'd be comfortable interacting with people physically, which obviously 1496 01:21:39.520 --> 01:21:40.840 is not gonna be twenty four hours a day. You 1497 01:21:40.880 --> 01:21:43.640 have to do other stuff, you have work, you need 1498 01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:46.159 to sleep. But I think it really gets to kind 1499 01:21:46.159 --> 01:21:48.560 of how you're using these things. Whereas if what you're 1500 01:21:48.680 --> 01:21:51.880 primarily using the services for is to you know, you're 1501 01:21:51.920 --> 01:21:56.039 getting stuck in loops reading news or something that is 1502 01:21:56.079 --> 01:21:58.319 really kind of getting you into a negative mental state, 1503 01:21:58.840 --> 01:22:01.159 then I don't know. I mean, I think that there's 1504 01:22:01.159 --> 01:22:03.640 probably a relatively short period of time that maybe that's 1505 01:22:04.039 --> 01:22:05.680 kind of a good thing that you want to be doing. 1506 01:22:06.640 --> 01:22:08.880 But again, even then, it's not zero, right because it's 1507 01:22:09.760 --> 01:22:12.079 just because news might make you unhappy doesn't mean that 1508 01:22:12.119 --> 01:22:14.279 the answer is to be unaware of negative things that 1509 01:22:14.319 --> 01:22:15.960 are happening in the world. I just think that there's 1510 01:22:16.000 --> 01:22:19.119 like different people have different tolerances for what they can 1511 01:22:19.520 --> 01:22:21.479 take on that, and I think we, you know, it's 1512 01:22:21.560 --> 01:22:24.800 generally having some awareness is probably good as long as 1513 01:22:24.840 --> 01:22:27.479 it's not more than you're kind of constitutionally able to take. 1514 01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:30.479 So I don't know. I try to not be too 1515 01:22:30.720 --> 01:22:34.319 paternalistic about this as our approach, but we want to 1516 01:22:34.359 --> 01:22:37.960 empower people by giving them the tools, both people and 1517 01:22:38.039 --> 01:22:41.079 if you're a tea and your parents, to have tools 1518 01:22:41.079 --> 01:22:44.520 to understand what you're experiencing and what the and how 1519 01:22:44.520 --> 01:22:46.720 you're using these things and then go from there. 1520 01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:49.600 Yeah, I think it requires all of us some degree 1521 01:22:49.600 --> 01:22:51.800 of self regulation. I like this idea of not being 1522 01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:54.359 too paternalistic. I mean, that's it seems like the right 1523 01:22:54.399 --> 01:22:57.359 way to go. I find myself occasionally having to make 1524 01:22:57.359 --> 01:23:00.640 sure that I'm not just passively scrolling, that I'm learning. 1525 01:23:00.840 --> 01:23:04.840 I like forging for organizing and dispersing information. That's been 1526 01:23:04.880 --> 01:23:08.560 my life's career. So I've learned so much from social media. 1527 01:23:08.560 --> 01:23:12.359 I find great papers, great ideas. I think comments are 1528 01:23:12.359 --> 01:23:14.359 a great source of feedback. And I'm not just saying 1529 01:23:14.359 --> 01:23:17.159 that because you're sitting here I mean Instagram in particular, 1530 01:23:17.239 --> 01:23:20.720 but other metal platforms have been tremendously helpful for me 1531 01:23:20.760 --> 01:23:23.760 to get science and health information out. One of the 1532 01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:26.960 things that I'm really excited about, which I only had 1533 01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:29.560 the chance to try for the first time today, is 1534 01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:33.640 your new VR platforms, the newest Oculus, And then we 1535 01:23:33.640 --> 01:23:36.640 can talk about the glasses, the ray bands. Those are 1536 01:23:36.640 --> 01:23:40.079 still those two experiences are still kind of blowing my mind, 1537 01:23:40.439 --> 01:23:44.880 especially the the the ray band glasses. And I have 1538 01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:46.760 so many questions about this, so I'll resist, but. 1539 01:23:48.039 --> 01:23:48.720 We've got into that. 1540 01:23:48.800 --> 01:23:51.039 Okay, Well, yeah, I have some experience with VR. My 1541 01:23:51.119 --> 01:23:55.600 lab has used VR. Jeremy Bailenson's lab at Stanford is 1542 01:23:55.600 --> 01:23:58.399 one of the pioneering labs of VR and mixed reality. 1543 01:23:58.520 --> 01:24:00.640 I guess something used to call it augmented reality, but 1544 01:24:00.680 -->

01:24:03.319 now mixed reality. I think what's so striking about the 1545 01:24:03.399 --> 01:24:07.479 VR that you guys had me try today is how 1546 01:24:07.479 --> 01:24:10.279 well it interfaces with the with the real room, let's 1547 01:24:10.279 --> 01:24:13.279 call it the physical room. I could still see people, 1548 01:24:13.399 --> 01:24:15.159 I could see where the furniture was so it wasn't 1549 01:24:15.159 --> 01:24:17.359 gonna bump into anything. I could see people's smiles, I 1550 01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:20.920 could see my my, my water on the table while 1551 01:24:21.000 --> 01:24:24.880 I was doing this what felt like a real martial 1552 01:24:24.960 --> 01:24:27.800 arts experience, except I wasn't getting hit while I was 1553 01:24:27.840 --> 01:24:33.079 getting hit virtually. But it's extremely engaging and yet it 1554 01:24:33.720 --> 01:24:36.960 on the good side of things, it really bypasses a 1555 01:24:36.960 --> 01:24:39.479 lot of the early concerns that Balin's in Lab. Again, 1556 01:24:39.880 --> 01:24:41.800 Jeremy's Lab was early to say that, oh, you know, 1557 01:24:41.800 --> 01:24:43.920 there's a limit how much of VR one can or 1558 01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:48.319 should use each day, even for the adult brain, because 1559 01:24:48.720 --> 01:24:52.199 it can really disrupt your vestibular system, your sense of balance. 1560 01:24:52.520 --> 01:24:54.159 All of that seems to have been dealt with in 1561 01:24:54.239 --> 01:24:56.960 this this new iteration of VR, like it didn't come 1562 01:24:56.960 --> 01:24:58.560 out of it feeling dizzy at all. I didn't feel 1563 01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:00.279 like I was re entering the room in a way 1564 01:25:00.319 --> 01:25:03.159 that was really jarring going into it as obviously as whoa, 1565 01:25:03.199 --> 01:25:06.399 this is a different world. But you can look to 1566 01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:08.560 your left and say, oh, someone just came in the door. Hey, 1567 01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:10.159 how's it going. Hold on and playing this game, just 1568 01:25:10.199 --> 01:25:11.520 as it was when I was a kid playing in 1569 01:25:11.640 --> 01:25:14.319 Nintendo and someone walk in. It's fully engrossing, but you'd 1570 01:25:14.319 --> 01:25:15.880 be like, hold on and you see they're there. So, 1571 01:25:16.319 --> 01:25:22.920 first of all, bravo, incredible and then the next question is, 1572 01:25:22.960 --> 01:25:25.239 you know, what is this what do we even call 1573 01:25:25.319 --> 01:25:28.800 this experience? Because it is truly mixed It's a truly 1574 01:25:28.840 --> 01:25:30.079 mixed reality experience. 1575 01:25:30.359 --> 01:25:32.920 Yeah, I mean mixed realities is sort of the umbrella 1576 01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:37.000 term that refers to the combined experience of virtual and 1577 01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:40.920 augmented reality. So augmented reality is you know what you're 1578 01:25:40.960 --> 01:25:43.479 eventually going to get with you know, some future version 1579 01:25:43.479 --> 01:25:47.399 of the smart glasses where you're primarily seeing the world, right, 1580 01:25:47.439 --> 01:25:51.119 but you can put holograms in it, right, So that 1581 01:25:51.319 --> 01:25:54.520 will have a future where you're going to walk into 1582 01:25:54.520 --> 01:25:57.159 a room and they're gonna be like as many holograms 1583 01:25:57.239 --> 01:25:58.800 as as physical objects. 1584 01:25:58.880 --> 01:25:58.960 Right. 1585 01:25:59.000 --> 01:26:01.399 If you just think about like the paper, the kind 1586 01:26:01.399 --> 01:26:04.479 of art, physical games, media, your workstation, and we. 1587 01:26:04.560 --> 01:26:06.520 Refer to it, let's say in mma, if we could 1588 01:26:06.720 --> 01:26:08.159 draw it up on the table right here and just 1589 01:26:08.159 --> 01:26:10.199 see it repeat, as opposed to us turning and looking 1590 01:26:10.199 --> 01:26:10.640 at a screen. 1591 01:26:10.680 --> 01:26:12.840 I mean pretty much any screen that exists could be 1592 01:26:12.880 --> 01:26:15.880 a hologram in the future with smart glasses, right, there's 1593 01:26:15.880 --> 01:26:18.640 nothing that actually physically needs to be there for that. 1594 01:26:18.680 --> 01:26:22.399 When you have glasses that can put a hologram there, 1595 01:26:22.680 --> 01:26:24.880 and it's an interesting thought experiment to just go around 1596 01:26:24.920 --> 01:26:26.680 and think about, Okay, what of the things that are 1597 01:26:26.680 --> 01:26:29.520 physical in the world need to actually be physical? And 1598 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:31.439 your chair does right because you're sitting on it. A 1599 01:26:31.439 --> 01:26:33.920 hologram isn't going to support you. But I like that 1600 01:26:34.079 --> 01:26:35.800 art on the wall. I mean that doesn't need to 1601 01:26:36.079 --> 01:26:41.479 physically be there. I mean, so I think that's that's 1602 01:26:41.520 --> 01:26:44.399 sort of the augmented reality experience that we're moving towards. 1603 01:26:44.920 --> 01:26:48.760 And then we've had these headsets that historically we think 1604 01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:52.880 about as VR, and that has been something that kind 1605 01:26:52.880 --> 01:26:57.239 of it's like a fully immersive experience. But now we're 1606 01:26:57.279 --> 01:26:59.079 kind of getting something that's a hybrid in between the 1607 01:26:59.079 --> 01:27:01.640 two and capable both, which is a headset that can 1608 01:27:01.680 --> 01:27:05.800 do both virtual reality and some of these augmented reality experiences. 1609 01:27:06.319 --> 01:27:09.920 And I think that's really powerful, both because you're going 1610 01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:13.159 to get new applications that that kind of allow people 1611 01:27:13.199 --> 01:27:15.720 to collaborate together and you know, maybe the two of 1612 01:27:15.800 --> 01:27:18.359 us are here physically, but you know, someone joins us 1613 01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:20.800 and

it's their avatar there, or maybe you know it's 1614 01:27:20.800 --> 01:27:23.119 some version of the future like we're having a you know, 1615 01:27:23.159 --> 01:27:24.760 you're having a team meeting and you have some people 1616 01:27:24.800 --> 01:27:27.359 there physically, and you have some people dialing in and 1617 01:27:27.399 --> 01:27:29.600 they're basically like a hologram there virtually. But then you 1618 01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:32.319 also have some ai is that personas that are on 1619 01:27:32.359 --> 01:27:34.039 your team that are helping you do different things and 1620 01:27:34.079 --> 01:27:36.199 they can be embodied as avatars and around the table 1621 01:27:36.239 --> 01:27:36.720 meeting with you. 1622 01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:39.119 Are people going to be doing first dates that are 1623 01:27:39.560 --> 01:27:42.880 physically separated. I could imagine that some people would is 1624 01:27:42.880 --> 01:27:44.920 it even worth leaving the house type date? And then 1625 01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:46.680 they find out and then they meet for the first time. 1626 01:27:47.319 --> 01:27:50.960 I mean maybe I think I think, you know, dating 1627 01:27:51.159 --> 01:27:54.920 has physical aspects to it too, so some. 1628 01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:56.800 People might not be they want to know whether or 1629 01:27:56.840 --> 01:27:59.319 not it's worth the effort to head out to what not. 1630 01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:03.720 You know, it is possible. I mean, I know, like 1631 01:28:03.760 --> 01:28:09.640 a some of my friends who are dating basically say 1632 01:28:09.680 --> 01:28:11.359 that in order to make sure that they have like 1633 01:28:11.359 --> 01:28:13.840 a safe experience, and when they're if they're going on 1634 01:28:13.920 --> 01:28:17.439 a first date, they'll schedule something that's like shorter and 1635 01:28:17.479 --> 01:28:18.800 maybe in the middle of the day, like so maybe 1636 01:28:18.800 --> 01:28:20.600 it's coffee, so that way, if they don't like the person, 1637 01:28:20.640 --> 01:28:22.760 they can just kind of get out before like going 1638 01:28:22.760 --> 01:28:24.840 and scheduling a dinner or like a real full date. 1639 01:28:25.079 --> 01:28:26.840 So I don't know. Maybe in the future people will 1640 01:28:26.880 --> 01:28:28.920 will kind of have that experience so where you can 1641 01:28:29.000 --> 01:28:31.800 feel like you're kind of sitting there and it's and 1642 01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:34.560 it's even easier and lighter weight and safer, and if 1643 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:36.319 you're not having a good experience, you can just like 1644 01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:41.119 teleport out of there and beyond. But yeah, I think 1645 01:28:41.159 --> 01:28:43.239 that this will be an interesting question in the future. 1646 01:28:43.560 --> 01:28:47.000 Is there are clearly a lot of things that are 1647 01:28:47.039 --> 01:28:52.319 only possible physically that or so much better physically, and 1648 01:28:52.359 --> 01:28:53.880 then there are all these things that we're building up 1649 01:28:53.880 --> 01:28:58.159 that can be digital experiences. But it's this weird artifact 1650 01:28:58.239 --> 01:29:00.640 of kind of how the stuff has been developed that 1651 01:29:01.079 --> 01:29:03.640 the digital world and the physical world exists in these 1652 01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:06.000 like completely different planes. Or you want to interact with 1653 01:29:06.039 --> 01:29:07.840 the digital world, well we do it all the time, 1654 01:29:07.880 --> 01:29:09.600 but we pull out a small screen or we have 1655 01:29:09.640 --> 01:29:11.800 a big screen and just basically we're interacting with the 1656 01:29:11.840 --> 01:29:15.319 digital world through these screens. But I think we fast 1657 01:29:15.399 --> 01:29:19.960 forward a decade or more. It's I think one of 1658 01:29:19.960 --> 01:29:24.239 the really interesting questions about what, like what is the 1659 01:29:24.279 --> 01:29:25.560 world that we're going to live in. I think it's 1660 01:29:25.560 --> 01:29:27.880 going to increasingly be this mesh of the physical and 1661 01:29:27.920 --> 01:29:31.600 digital worlds that will allow us to feel a that 1662 01:29:31.880 --> 01:29:34.279 the world that we're in is just a lot richer 1663 01:29:34.279 --> 01:29:36.119 because there can be all these things that people create 1664 01:29:36.119 --> 01:29:38.640 that are just so much easier to do digitally than physically. 1665 01:29:40.119 --> 01:29:45.119 But you're going to have a real kind of physical 1666 01:29:45.159 --> 01:29:47.840 sense of presence with these things and not feel like 1667 01:29:47.880 --> 01:29:50.840 interacting in the digital world is taking you away from 1668 01:29:51.079 --> 01:29:53.760 the physical world, which today is just so much viscerally 1669 01:29:53.880 --> 01:29:56.920 richer and more powerful. I think the digital world will 1670 01:29:56.960 --> 01:30:01.199 sort of be embedded in that and and will feel 1671 01:30:01.319 --> 01:30:03.079 kind of just as vivid in a lot of ways. 1672 01:30:03.119 --> 01:30:05.039 So that's why I always think when you were saying 1673 01:30:05.079 --> 01:30:07.000 before you know, you felt like you could look around 1674 01:30:07.000 --> 01:30:09.640 and see the real room, I actually think that there's 1675 01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:12.840 an interesting kind of philosophical distinction between the real room 1676 01:30:12.880 --> 01:30:16.079 and the physical room, which you know, historically, I think 1677 01:30:16.079 --> 01:30:18.520 people would have said those are the same thing. But 1678 01:30:18.520 --> 01:30:21.039 I actually think in the future, the real room is 1679 01:30:21.079 --> 01:30:23.680 going to be the combination of the physical world with 1680 01:30:23.760 --> 01:30:26.199 all the digital artifacts and objects that are in there 1681 01:30:26.199 --> 01:30:28.560 that you can interact with them

and feel present, whereas 1682 01:30:28.560 --> 01:30:30.840 the physical world is just the part that's physically there 1683 01:30:31.319 --> 01:30:33.159 and I think it's possible to build a real world 1684 01:30:33.239 --> 01:30:35.000 that's the sum of these too, that will actually be 1685 01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:37.760 a more profound experience than what we have today. 1686 01:30:38.479 --> 01:30:41.199 I was struck by the smoothness of the interface between 1687 01:30:41.199 --> 01:30:44.079 the VR and the physical room. Your team had me 1688 01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:48.079 try a I guess it was an exercise class in 1689 01:30:48.119 --> 01:30:51.359 the Formum book. It was like, essentially like hitting MIT's boxing, 1690 01:30:51.479 --> 01:30:54.840 so hitting targets boxing natural. Yeah, and it comes at 1691 01:30:54.840 --> 01:30:56.920 a fairly fast pace that then picks up. It's got 1692 01:30:56.960 --> 01:30:59.720 some tutorial It's very easy to use, and certainly got 1693 01:30:59.720 --> 01:31:02.600 my heart right up. I'm in at least decent shape, 1694 01:31:02.880 --> 01:31:06.239 and I have to be honest, I never once desired 1695 01:31:06.239 --> 01:31:08.640 to do any of these on screen fitness things. I mean, 1696 01:31:08.680 --> 01:31:11.520 I can't think of anything more aversive than like like 1697 01:31:11.560 --> 01:31:15.000 a clap, like I don't want to insult any particular products, 1698 01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:17.920 but like riding a stationary bike while looking at a 1699 01:31:17.960 --> 01:31:20.119 screen and pretending I'm on a road outside. I can't 1700 01:31:20.119 --> 01:31:21.439 think of anything worse for me. 1701 01:31:22.600 --> 01:31:26.279 Maybe, okay, maybe I'm just a very competitive person. It's like, 1702 01:31:26.279 --> 01:31:28.399 if you're going to be running on a treadmill, at 1703 01:31:28.479 --> 01:31:30.359 least give me a leaderboard so I can beat the 1704 01:31:30.399 --> 01:31:31.319 people who are ahead of me. 1705 01:31:31.439 --> 01:31:34.840 I like moving outside, and certainly an exercise class or 1706 01:31:34.880 --> 01:31:37.800 aerobics class as they used to call them. But what 1707 01:31:37.840 --> 01:31:41.600 the experience I tried today was extremely engaging. And I've 1708 01:31:41.640 --> 01:31:44.479 done enough boxing to at least know how to do 1709 01:31:44.520 --> 01:31:46.279 a little bit of it, and I really enjoyed it 1710 01:31:46.279 --> 01:31:48.359 gets your heart rate up and you I completely forgot 1711 01:31:48.359 --> 01:31:51.600 that I was doing an on screen experience because in 1712 01:31:51.680 --> 01:31:55.880 part because I believe I was still in that physical room, 1713 01:31:56.359 --> 01:31:59.720 and I think there's something about the mesh of the 1714 01:31:59.720 --> 01:32:05.119 physical room and the virtual experience that makes it in 1715 01:32:05.119 --> 01:32:07.159 either of one world or the other. I mean, I 1716 01:32:07.199 --> 01:32:09.840 really felt at the interface of those and certainly got 1717 01:32:09.840 --> 01:32:12.000 presence this feeling of forgetting that I was in a 1718 01:32:12.039 --> 01:32:14.960 virtual experience and got my heart rate up pretty quickly. 1719 01:32:14.960 --> 01:32:16.600 We had to stop because we were going to start recording, 1720 01:32:16.600 --> 01:32:18.479 but I would do that for a good forty five 1721 01:32:18.520 --> 01:32:21.279 minutes in the morning. And there's no amount of money 1722 01:32:21.319 --> 01:32:24.359 you could pay me, truly to look at a screen 1723 01:32:24.399 --> 01:32:26.359 while peddling on a bike or running on a treadmill. 1724 01:32:26.720 --> 01:32:29.520 So again, Bravo, I think it's gonna be very useful. 1725 01:32:29.520 --> 01:32:31.800 It's going to get people moving their bodies more, which 1726 01:32:32.119 --> 01:32:35.880 certainly social media up until now and a lot of 1727 01:32:35.880 --> 01:32:40.680 technologies have been accused of limiting the amount of physical 1728 01:32:40.680 --> 01:32:43.680 activity that both children and adults are engaged in. So, 1729 01:32:43.920 --> 01:32:46.079 and we know we need physical activity. You're a big 1730 01:32:46.439 --> 01:32:49.560 proponent of and practitioner physical activity. So is this a 1731 01:32:49.600 --> 01:32:52.800 major goal of Meta? Get people moving their bodies more 1732 01:32:53.359 --> 01:32:56.000 and getting their heart rates up and so on. 1733 01:32:57.079 --> 01:32:59.119 I think we want to enable it, and I think 1734 01:32:59.159 --> 01:33:03.720 it's good. I think it comes more from like a 1735 01:33:03.800 --> 01:33:09.560 philosophical view of the world than it is necessarily. I mean, 1736 01:33:09.680 --> 01:33:12.399 I don't go into building products to try to shape 1737 01:33:12.399 --> 01:33:16.199 people's behavior, right. I believe in empowering people to you know, 1738 01:33:16.920 --> 01:33:20.319 do what they want and be the best version of 1739 01:33:20.359 --> 01:33:21.319 themselves that they can be. 1740 01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:22.439 It's no agenda. 1741 01:33:23.119 --> 01:33:26.439 That said, I do believe that. I think there's the 1742 01:33:26.680 --> 01:33:30.560 previous generation of computers where devices for your mind, and 1743 01:33:30.760 --> 01:33:34.640 I think that we are not brains and tanks. You know. 1744 01:33:34.680 --> 01:33:37.680 It's like that there's sort of a philosophical view of 1745 01:33:37.720 --> 01:33:41.640 people of like, Okay, you you are primarily you know, 1746 01:33:41.640 --> 01:33:44.159 what you think about or your values or something. It's like, no, 1747 01:33:44.600 --> 01:33:48.199 you are that, and you are a physical manifestation and 1748 01:33:48.399 --> 01:33:52.439 people were very physical, and I think building a computer 1749 01:33:54.000 --> 01:33:57.880 for your whole body and not just for your mind 1750 01:33:58.880 --> 01:34:02.880 is very fitting

with this worldview that like the actual 1751 01:34:03.000 --> 01:34:04.920 essence of you, if you want to be present with 1752 01:34:04.960 --> 01:34:07.359 another person, if you want to like be fully engaged 1753 01:34:07.399 --> 01:34:10.840 in experience, is not just okay, it's not just a 1754 01:34:11.359 --> 01:34:13.960 video conference call that looks at your face and where 1755 01:34:13.960 --> 01:34:17.960 you can like share ideas. It's it's something that that 1756 01:34:18.000 --> 01:34:20.319 you can engage your whole body. So yeah, I mean, 1757 01:34:20.359 --> 01:34:23.239 I think being physical is very important to me. I mean, 1758 01:34:23.239 --> 01:34:26.560 it's you know, it's it just a that's a lot 1759 01:34:26.600 --> 01:34:28.760 of you know, the most fun stuff that I get 1760 01:34:28.760 --> 01:34:31.720 to do. It's a really important part of how I 1761 01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:36.439 personally balance my energy levels and just get a diversity 1762 01:34:36.479 --> 01:34:39.319 of experiences because I could spend all my time running 1763 01:34:39.319 --> 01:34:42.880 the company. But I think it's good for people to 1764 01:34:42.920 --> 01:34:45.520 do some different things and you know, compete in different 1765 01:34:45.560 --> 01:34:50.159 areas or learn different things, and all of that is good. 1766 01:34:51.239 --> 01:34:55.079 If people want to you know, do really intense workouts 1767 01:34:55.119 --> 01:34:58.279 with with the work that we're doing with quest or 1768 01:34:58.319 --> 01:35:02.479 with you know, eventually glasses, great, But even if you 1769 01:35:02.479 --> 01:35:05.960 don't want to do like a really intense workout, I 1770 01:35:05.960 --> 01:35:08.720 think just having a computing environment and platform which is 1771 01:35:08.720 --> 01:35:12.159 inherently physical captures more of the essence of what we 1772 01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:15.720 are as people than any of the previous computing platforms 1773 01:35:15.720 --> 01:35:16.439 that we've had to date. 1774 01:35:17.000 --> 01:35:19.640 I was even thinking just of the simple task of 1775 01:35:19.680 --> 01:35:24.640 getting better range of motion aka flexibility. I could imagine 1776 01:35:24.680 --> 01:35:27.680 inside of the VR experience, you know, leaning into a stretch, 1777 01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:29.960 you know, a standard kind of like a lunch type stretch, 1778 01:35:30.000 --> 01:35:32.960 but actually seeing a meter of like, are you approaching 1779 01:35:32.960 --> 01:35:35.199 new levels of flexibility in that moment where it's actually 1780 01:35:35.279 --> 01:35:39.399 measuring some kinesthetic elements on the body and the joints. 1781 01:35:39.399 --> 01:35:42.560 And I mean I was just trying whereas normally you 1782 01:35:42.640 --> 01:35:44.000 might have to do that in front of a camera 1783 01:35:44.039 --> 01:35:45.640 which then would give you the data on a screen 1784 01:35:45.640 --> 01:35:47.840 that you look at afterwards or hire an expensive coach, 1785 01:35:48.159 --> 01:35:51.960 but or looking at form and resistance training, so you're 1786 01:35:52.479 --> 01:35:54.680 actually lifting physical weights, but it's telling you whether or 1787 01:35:54.680 --> 01:35:57.159 not you're breaking form. I mean, there's just so much 1788 01:35:57.199 --> 01:35:58.560 that could be done inside of there. And then my 1789 01:35:58.600 --> 01:36:01.760 mind just starts to spiral into like, Wow, this is 1790 01:36:01.880 --> 01:36:04.079 very likely to transform what we think of as quote 1791 01:36:04.119 --> 01:36:05.039 unquote exercise. 1792 01:36:05.920 --> 01:36:07.640 Yeah, I think so. I think there's still a bunch 1793 01:36:07.640 --> 01:36:11.279 of questions that need to get answered. You know, I 1794 01:36:11.279 --> 01:36:14.920 don't think most people are gonna necessarily want to install 1795 01:36:15.319 --> 01:36:17.920 you know, a lot of sensors or cameras to track 1796 01:36:17.960 --> 01:36:20.439 their whole body. So we're just over time getting better 1797 01:36:20.920 --> 01:36:23.800 from the sensors that are on the headsets of being 1798 01:36:23.800 --> 01:36:25.920 able to do very good hand tracking. 1799 01:36:26.000 --> 01:36:26.119 Right. 1800 01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:28.760 So we have this research demo where you now just 1801 01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:31.520 with the hand tracking from the headset, you can type. 1802 01:36:31.560 --> 01:36:34.000 It just projects a little keyboard onto your table and 1803 01:36:34.039 --> 01:36:35.880 you can type and people like type like one hundred 1804 01:36:35.920 --> 01:36:38.760 words a minute with that with a virtual keyboard. Yeah, 1805 01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:44.720 we're starting to be able to, using some modern AI techniques, 1806 01:36:44.800 --> 01:36:47.920 be able to like simulate and understand where your torso's 1807 01:36:47.960 --> 01:36:51.319 position is. Even though you can't always see it, you 1808 01:36:51.359 --> 01:36:52.920 can see it a bunch of the time. And if 1809 01:36:52.960 --> 01:36:56.560 you fuse together what you do see with like the 1810 01:36:56.600 --> 01:36:59.439 accelerometer and understanding how the thing is moving, you can 1811 01:36:59.520 --> 01:37:01.960 kind of understand what the body position is going to be. 1812 01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:06.279 But some things are still going to be hard, right, 1813 01:37:06.319 --> 01:37:11.319 So you mentioned boxing, that one works pretty well because 1814 01:37:11.399 --> 01:37:14.199 you know, we understand your head position, we understand your hands, 1815 01:37:15.279 --> 01:37:18.000 and now we're we're kind of increasingly understanding your your 1816 01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:21.039 body position. But let's say you want to expand that 1817 01:37:21.159 --> 01:37:25.840 to muay Thai or kickboxing. Okay, so legs, that's a 1818 01:37:25.840 --> 01:37:29.159 different part of tracking. That's harder because that's

out of 1819 01:37:29.159 --> 01:37:31.520 the field of view more of the time. But there's 1820 01:37:31.520 --> 01:37:33.800 also the element of resistance, right, so you can throw 1821 01:37:33.800 --> 01:37:36.640 a punch and retract it and shadow box and you know, 1822 01:37:36.720 --> 01:37:41.199 do that without upsetting your kind of physical balance that much. 1823 01:37:41.239 --> 01:37:43.600 But if you want to throw a roundhouse kick and 1824 01:37:43.600 --> 01:37:46.319 there's no one there, then I mean, you know, the 1825 01:37:46.359 --> 01:37:48.279 standard whether you do it and when you're shadow boxing 1826 01:37:48.359 --> 01:37:50.720 is you basically do a little three sixty. But like, 1827 01:37:51.039 --> 01:37:52.640 I don't know is that is that going to feel great? 1828 01:37:52.760 --> 01:37:54.920 I mean, I think there's a question about what that 1829 01:37:55.079 --> 01:37:58.159 what that experience should be. And then if you want 1830 01:37:58.199 --> 01:37:59.520 to go even further, if you want to get like 1831 01:37:59.560 --> 01:38:04.279 grappling to work, I'm not even sure how you would 1832 01:38:04.319 --> 01:38:07.039 do that without having resistance of understanding what the forces 1833 01:38:07.079 --> 01:38:09.000 applied to you would be. And just then you get 1834 01:38:09.000 --> 01:38:11.239 into okay, maybe you're going to have some kind of 1835 01:38:11.239 --> 01:38:14.399 body suit that can apply you know, haptics, but I'm 1836 01:38:14.439 --> 01:38:16.920 not even sure that that even a pretty advanced haptic 1837 01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:18.640 system is going to be able to be quite good 1838 01:38:18.760 --> 01:38:21.359 enough to do to simulate like the actual forces that 1839 01:38:21.399 --> 01:38:24.399 would be applied to you in a grappling scenario. So 1840 01:38:25.000 --> 01:38:26.840 this is part of what's fun about technology, though, is 1841 01:38:26.880 --> 01:38:29.880 you get you keep on getting new capabilities, and then 1842 01:38:29.880 --> 01:38:31.560 you need to figure out what things you can do 1843 01:38:31.600 --> 01:38:33.319 with them. So I think it's really neat that we 1844 01:38:33.319 --> 01:38:35.079 can kind of do boxing and we can do this 1845 01:38:35.159 --> 01:38:38.119 supernatural thing, and there's a bunch of awesome cardio and 1846 01:38:38.199 --> 01:38:40.960 dancing and things like that, and then there's also still 1847 01:38:41.000 --> 01:38:42.960 so much more to do that that I'm excited to 1848 01:38:43.439 --> 01:38:46.399 kind of get to over time. But but it's it's 1849 01:38:46.439 --> 01:38:47.119 a long journey. 1850 01:38:47.359 --> 01:38:51.479 And what about things like painting and art and music, 1851 01:38:51.840 --> 01:38:55.560 you know, I imagine you know, of course you like 1852 01:38:55.600 --> 01:38:58.119 different mediums like I like to draw it pen and pencil, 1853 01:38:58.199 --> 01:39:00.479 but I can imagine trying to learn how to

paint virtually, 1854 01:39:00.479 --> 01:39:03.319 and of course you could print out a physical version 1855 01:39:03.319 --> 01:39:05.159 of that. At the end. This doesn't have to depart 1856 01:39:05.159 --> 01:39:07.079 from the physical world. It could end in the physical. 1857 01:39:07.359 --> 01:39:10.359 Did you see the demo the piano demo where you 1858 01:39:11.520 --> 01:39:14.439 either you're there with a physical keyboard, or it could 1859 01:39:14.439 --> 01:39:19.479 be a virtual keyboard. But the app basically highlights what 1860 01:39:19.600 --> 01:39:23.079 keys you need to press in order to play the song. 1861 01:39:23.359 --> 01:39:26.479 So it's basically like you're looking at your piano and 1862 01:39:26.520 --> 01:39:30.159 it's teaching you how to play a song that you choose. 1863 01:39:29.960 --> 01:39:30.960 An actual piano. 1864 01:39:31.199 --> 01:39:31.399 Yeah. 1865 01:39:31.479 --> 01:39:34.800 Yeah, but it's illuminating certain keys in the virtual space. 1866 01:39:34.840 --> 01:39:37.479 And it could either be a virtual piano if you 1867 01:39:37.560 --> 01:39:39.760 or keyboard if you don't have a piano or keyboard, 1868 01:39:40.119 --> 01:39:45.920 or it could use your actual keyboard. So yeah, I 1869 01:39:45.960 --> 01:39:48.760 think stuff like that is going to be really fascinating 1870 01:39:48.800 --> 01:39:51.319 for education and expression. 1871 01:39:51.840 --> 01:39:54.039 And for brought excuse me, but for and for broadening 1872 01:39:54.079 --> 01:39:57.359 access to total expense of equipment. A piano is is 1873 01:39:57.399 --> 01:40:01.319 no small expense, makes up a lot of space, and 1874 01:40:01.439 --> 01:40:03.520 needs to be tuned. You can think of all these 1875 01:40:03.520 --> 01:40:05.560 things like that the kid that has very little income 1876 01:40:05.640 --> 01:40:07.479 or their family has very little income, could learn to 1877 01:40:07.520 --> 01:40:09.840 play a virtual piano at much lower totally. 1878 01:40:10.159 --> 01:40:11.720 Yeah, it gets back to the question I was asking 1879 01:40:11.760 --> 01:40:14.319 before about this thought experiment of how many of the 1880 01:40:14.359 --> 01:40:18.640 things that we physically have today actually need to be physical. 1881 01:40:19.000 --> 01:40:25.319 The piano doesn't. Maybe there's some premium where it's maybe 1882 01:40:25.359 --> 01:40:29.239 it's a somewhat better, more tactical, tactical experience to have 1883 01:40:29.279 --> 01:40:32.159 a physical one. But for people who don't have the 1884 01:40:32.199 --> 01:40:35.640 space for it, or who can't afford to buy a piano, 1885 01:40:35.760 --> 01:40:36.960 or just aren't sure that they would want to make 1886 01:40:36.960 --> 01:40:39.079 that investment at the beginning of learning how to play piano. 1887 01:40:39.680 --> 01:40:41.359 I think in the future you'll have the option of 1888 01:40:41.399 --> 01:40:44.439 just buying, you know, an app or a hologram piano, 1889 01:40:44.479 --> 01:40:49.319 which will be a lot more affordable. And I think 1890 01:40:49.319 --> 01:40:51.720 it's going to be that's going to be unlock a 1891 01:40:51.760 --> 01:40:56.399 ton of creativity too, because instead of the market for 1892 01:40:56.479 --> 01:41:00.279 piano makers being constrained to like a relatively small set 1893 01:41:00.319 --> 01:41:03.800 of experts who have like perfected that craft, and you're 1894 01:41:03.800 --> 01:41:07.960 gonna have like, you know, kids or developers all around 1895 01:41:07.960 --> 01:41:12.399 the world designing crazy designs for potential keyboards and pianos 1896 01:41:12.439 --> 01:41:14.319 that look nothing like what we've seen before, but are 1897 01:41:14.640 --> 01:41:17.319 maybe like bring even more joy and or even more 1898 01:41:17.439 --> 01:41:19.439 kind of fun in the world where you have fewer 1899 01:41:19.520 --> 01:41:21.760 these physical constraints. So, I don't know, I think it's 1900 01:41:21.840 --> 01:41:23.479 kind of it's gonna be a lot of wild stuff 1901 01:41:23.520 --> 01:41:24.000 to explore. 1902 01:41:24.119 --> 01:41:26.239 There's definitely gonna be a lot of wild stuff to explore. 1903 01:41:26.239 --> 01:41:31.159 I was just had this this idea slash image in 1904 01:41:31.199 --> 01:41:33.359 my mind of what you were talking about, merged with 1905 01:41:33.399 --> 01:41:35.840 our earlier conversation when Priscilla was here. Of you know, 1906 01:41:35.880 --> 01:41:38.000 I could imagine a time not too long from now 1907 01:41:38.000 --> 01:41:40.880 and where you using mixed reality to run experiments in 1908 01:41:40.960 --> 01:41:45.319 the lab, literally mixing virtual solutions, getting potential outcomes, and 1909 01:41:45.359 --> 01:41:47.359 then picking the best one to then go actually do 1910 01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:50.680 in the real world, which is very both financially costly 1911 01:41:50.840 --> 01:41:53.399 and time wise costly. 1912 01:41:53.680 --> 01:41:59.359 Yeah, I mean people are already using VR for surgery 1913 01:41:59.520 --> 01:42:03.399 and education on it. There's some study that was done 1914 01:42:03.439 --> 01:42:07.960 that basically did it tried to do a controlled experiment 1915 01:42:08.000 --> 01:42:10.119 of people who learned how to do a specific surgery 1916 01:42:11.039 --> 01:42:14.640 through just a normal kind of textbook and lecture method 1917 01:42:15.119 --> 01:42:19.159 versus like you show the knee and you have it, 1918 01:42:19.439 --> 01:42:21.760 you know, be a large blown up model and people 1919 01:42:21.760 --> 01:42:24.159 can manipulate it and kind of practice where they would 1920 01:42:24.199 --> 01:42:28.319 make the cuts, and like the people in that class 1921 01:42:28.359 --> 01:42:32.279 did better. So I think that there's Yeah, it's I 1922 01:42:32.279 --> 01:42:34.199 think it's going to be profound for a lot of 1923 01:42:34.199 --> 01:42:34.880 different areas.

1924 01:42:35.159 --> 01:42:37.479 And the least example that leaps to mind, you know, 1925 01:42:37.479 --> 01:42:40.680 I think social media and online culture has been accused 1926 01:42:40.680 --> 01:42:43.279 of creating a lot of real world, let's call it 1927 01:42:43.279 --> 01:42:46.520 physical world social anxiety for people. But I could imagine 1928 01:42:46.880 --> 01:42:49.920 practicing a social interaction or a kid that has a 1929 01:42:49.920 --> 01:42:52.119 lot of social anxiety or that needs to advocate for 1930 01:42:52.159 --> 01:42:55.319 themselves better, learning how to do that progressively through a 1931 01:42:55.399 --> 01:42:57.600 virtual interaction, and then taking that to the real world. 1932 01:42:57.640 --> 01:43:00.880 Because it's in my very recent experience today, it's so 1933 01:43:01.039 --> 01:43:04.720 blended now with real experience that the kid that feels 1934 01:43:04.800 --> 01:43:07.880 terrified of advocating for themselves or just talking to another 1935 01:43:07.960 --> 01:43:09.560 human being or an adult, or being in a new 1936 01:43:09.560 --> 01:43:11.720 circumstance of a room full of kids, you could really 1937 01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:16.159 experience that in silico. First, get comfortable, let the nervous 1938 01:43:16.199 --> 01:43:18.359 system attenuate a bit, and then take it into the 1939 01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:20.439 quote unquote physical world. 1940 01:43:21.359 --> 01:43:21.560 Yeah. 1941 01:43:21.600 --> 01:43:23.880 I think we'll see experiences like that. I mean, I 1942 01:43:23.960 --> 01:43:27.479 also think that some of the social dynamics around how 1943 01:43:27.479 --> 01:43:32.039 people interact in this kind of blended digital world will 1944 01:43:32.079 --> 01:43:33.760 be more nuanced in other ways. So I'm sure that 1945 01:43:33.800 --> 01:43:37.720 there will be kind of new anxieties that people developed 1946 01:43:37.760 --> 01:43:42.000 to just like you know, teens today need to navigate 1947 01:43:42.079 --> 01:43:47.319 dynamics around texting constantly that that we just didn't have 1948 01:43:47.359 --> 01:43:50.760 when we were kids. So I think it will help 1949 01:43:50.760 --> 01:43:52.119 with some things. I think that there will be new 1950 01:43:52.119 --> 01:43:54.239 issues that hopefully we can help people work through too. 1951 01:43:54.359 --> 01:43:56.760 But overall, I think, yeah, I think it's going to 1952 01:43:56.760 --> 01:43:58.439 be really powerful and positive. 1953 01:43:59.039 --> 01:44:02.880 Let's talk about the glass. Sure this was wild. Put 1954 01:44:02.920 --> 01:44:04.880 on a pair of ray bands. I like the way 1955 01:44:04.920 --> 01:44:08.800 they look. They're clear, they look like any other glass 1956 01:44:08.960 --> 01:44:13.439 ray band glasses, except that I could call out to 1957 01:44:13.840 --> 01:44:16.279 the glasses. I could just say, you know, hey, Meta, 1958 01:44:16.880 --> 01:44:19.800 I want to listen to the

Bach variations the Goldburg 1959 01:44:19.880 --> 01:44:26.000 variations of Bach. And Meta responded and no one around 1960 01:44:26.000 --> 01:44:29.960 me could hear, but I could hear with exquisite clarity. 1961 01:44:30.640 --> 01:44:31.960 By the way, I'm not getting paid to say any 1962 01:44:31.960 --> 01:44:34.520 of this. I'm just still blown away by this, folks. 1963 01:44:35.720 --> 01:44:38.479 I want a pair of these very badly. I could hear, okay, 1964 01:44:38.479 --> 01:44:41.720 I'm selecting those now, and or that music now, and 1965 01:44:41.720 --> 01:44:43.000 then I could hear it in the background. But then 1966 01:44:43.000 --> 01:44:45.079 I could still have a conversation. So this was neither 1967 01:44:45.159 --> 01:44:49.119 headphones in nor headphones out, and I could say, wait, 1968 01:44:49.159 --> 01:44:52.159 pause the music, and it would pause. And the best 1969 01:44:52.159 --> 01:44:54.840 part was I didn't have to leave the room mentally, 1970 01:44:55.119 --> 01:44:57.279 and I even have to take out a phone. It 1971 01:44:57.359 --> 01:45:00.479 was all interfaced through this very local environment in and 1972 01:45:00.520 --> 01:45:03.159 around the head. And as a neuroscientist, I'm fascinated by 1973 01:45:03.159 --> 01:45:05.439 this because of course all of our perceptions auditory, visual, 1974 01:45:05.439 --> 01:45:08.000 et cetera occurring in the inside the casing of this 1975 01:45:08.359 --> 01:45:12.279 of this thing we call a skull. But maybe could 1976 01:45:12.279 --> 01:45:15.439 comment on, you know, the origin of that design for you, you 1977 01:45:15.319 --> 01:45:17.399 know what the ideas behind that and where you think 1978 01:45:17.399 --> 01:45:19.560 it could go, because I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface. 1979 01:45:21.039 --> 01:45:23.520 The real product that we want to eventually get to 1980 01:45:24.439 --> 01:45:28.760 is this kind of full augmented reality product in a 1981 01:45:29.239 --> 01:45:33.079 kind of stylish and comfortable normal glasses form factor. 1982 01:45:32.800 --> 01:45:35.359 Not dor k EYVR headset so to speak. No, I mean, 1983 01:45:35.359 --> 01:45:37.279 as the VR headset does feel kind of like it will, 1984 01:45:37.319 --> 01:45:38.800 but there's gonna be. 1985 01:45:38.760 --> 01:45:40.680 A place for that too. Just like you have your 1986 01:45:40.760 --> 01:45:44.600 laptop and you have your workstation, or maybe the better analogies, 1987 01:45:44.640 --> 01:45:47.960 you have your phone and you have your workstation, these 1988 01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:50.159 AR glasses are going to be like your phone and 1989 01:45:50.159 --> 01:45:53.000 that you have something on your face and you will 1990 01:45:53.600 --> 01:45:55.800 I think be able to if you want wear it 1991 01:45:55.960 --> 01:45:58.520 for a lot of the day. And interact with with 1992 01:45:58.520 --> 01:46:01.880 with it very frequently. I don't think that people are 1993 01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:05.800 going to be walking around the world wearing VR head sets. 1994 01:46:06.039 --> 01:46:08.680 But yeah, that's that's certainly not the future that I'm 1995 01:46:08.840 --> 01:46:11.359 that I'm kind of hoping we get to. But I 1996 01:46:11.399 --> 01:46:14.560 do think that there is a place where for having 1997 01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:16.880 you know, because it's a bigger form factor, it has 1998 01:46:16.880 --> 01:46:20.239 more compute power. So just like your workstation or your 1999 01:46:20.279 --> 01:46:22.680 your kind of bigger computer can do more than your 2000 01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:25.319 phone can do. There's a place for that when you 2001 01:46:25.319 --> 01:46:27.800 want to settle into an intense task. Right, if you 2002 01:46:27.840 --> 01:46:29.600 have a doctor who's doing a surgery, I would want 2003 01:46:29.600 --> 01:46:31.640 them doing it through the headset, not through the kind 2004 01:46:31.680 --> 01:46:33.880 of not through their phone equivalent or the just kind 2005 01:46:33.920 --> 01:46:37.399 of lower powered glasses. But just like phones are powerful 2006 01:46:37.479 --> 01:46:39.439 enough to do a lot of things, and the glasses 2007 01:46:39.439 --> 01:46:43.319 will eventually get there too. Now that said, there's a 2008 01:46:43.319 --> 01:46:48.479 bunch of really hard technology problems to address in order 2009 01:46:48.520 --> 01:46:50.279 to be able to get to this point where you 2010 01:46:50.319 --> 01:46:54.239 can like put kind of full holograms in the world. 2011 01:46:54.279 --> 01:46:58.199 You're basically miniaturizing a supercomputer and putting it into a 2012 01:46:58.199 --> 01:47:03.119 pair of glasses so that the pair of glasses still 2013 01:47:03.119 --> 01:47:08.520 looks stylish and normal, and that's a really hard technology problem. 2014 01:47:08.520 --> 01:47:13.840 Making things small is really hard. A holographic display is, 2015 01:47:14.199 --> 01:47:17.359 you know, it's different from what our industry is optimized 2016 01:47:17.399 --> 01:47:21.800 for for thirty or forty years now building screens. There's 2017 01:47:21.840 --> 01:47:25.359 like a whole kind of industrial process around that that 2018 01:47:25.399 --> 01:47:29.119 goes into phones and TVs and computers and like increasingly 2019 01:47:29.199 --> 01:47:32.279 so many things that have different screens. Like there's a 2020 01:47:32.279 --> 01:47:34.159 whole pipeline that's gotten very good at making that kind 2021 01:47:34.159 --> 01:47:39.079 of screen, and the holographic displays are just a completely 2022 01:47:39.159 --> 01:47:42.239 different thing, right, because it's not a screen, right, It's 2023 01:47:42.239 --> 01:47:45.319 a thing that you can shoot light into through you know, 2024 01:47:45.359 --> 01:47:47.199 a laser or some other kind of projector, and it 2025 01:47:47.199 --> 01:47:49.600 can place that as an object in the world. So 2026 01:47:49.960 -->

01:47:52.760 that's going to need to be this whole other industrial 2027 01:47:52.800 --> 01:47:55.359 process that gets built up to doing that like in 2028 01:47:55.359 --> 01:48:00.720 an efficient way. So all that said, we're basically taking 2029 01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:04.840 two different approaches towards building this at once. One is 2030 01:48:05.359 --> 01:48:08.319 we are trying to keep in mind what is the 2031 01:48:08.840 --> 01:48:11.520 long term thing that it's not super far off. I 2032 01:48:11.520 --> 01:48:14.279 think within you know, a few years, I think we'll 2033 01:48:14.319 --> 01:48:17.199 have something that that's sort of a first version of 2034 01:48:17.359 --> 01:48:18.920 kind of this full vision that I'm talking about, and 2035 01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:20.920 we have something that's working internally that we use as 2036 01:48:20.920 --> 01:48:24.159 like a that we'll use as a dev kit. But 2037 01:48:26.600 --> 01:48:29.279 that one that's that's kind of a big challenge. It's 2038 01:48:29.319 --> 01:48:33.199 going to be more expensive and it's harder to get 2039 01:48:33.199 --> 01:48:36.960 all the pieces working. The other approach has been, all right, 2040 01:48:37.039 --> 01:48:39.520 let's start with what we know we can put into 2041 01:48:40.640 --> 01:48:45.560 a pair of stylish sunglasses today and just make them 2042 01:48:45.560 --> 01:48:47.680 as smart as we can. So, you know, for the 2043 01:48:47.680 --> 01:48:51.239 first version, you know, we worked with we did this 2044 01:48:51.279 --> 01:48:55.079 collaboration with ray Band, right, because that's like well accepted. 2045 01:48:55.119 --> 01:48:58.079 You know, these are well designed glasses. They're classic. People 2046 01:48:58.119 --> 01:49:01.079 have used them for decades. For the first version, we 2047 01:49:01.119 --> 01:49:03.600 got a sensor on the front so you could capture 2048 01:49:03.680 --> 01:49:05.800 moments without having to take your phone out of your pocket. 2049 01:49:05.880 --> 01:49:09.800 So you got photos and videos. You had the speaker 2050 01:49:09.800 --> 01:49:13.439 and the microphones, you can listen to music, you could 2051 01:49:13.439 --> 01:49:18.279 communicate with it. But it was you that was sort 2052 01:49:18.319 --> 01:49:19.680 of the first version of it. We had a lot 2053 01:49:19.720 --> 01:49:21.560 of the basics there, but we saw how people used 2054 01:49:21.560 --> 01:49:25.279 it and we tuned it. We made that the camera 2055 01:49:26.039 --> 01:49:28.319 is like twice as good For this new version that 2056 01:49:28.359 --> 01:49:30.359 we made the audio is a lot crisper for the 2057 01:49:30.439 --> 01:49:32.399 use cases that we saw that people actually used, which 2058 01:49:32.439 --> 01:49:34.159 is some of it is listening to music, but a 2059 01:49:34.159 --> 01:49:35.760 lot of it is like people want to take calls 2060 01:49:35.760 --> 01:49:38.960 in their glasses, they want to listen to podcasts, right. 2061 01:49:40.439 --> 01:49:43.239 But the biggest thing that I think is interesting is 2062 01:49:44.279 --> 01:49:46.880 the ability to get AI running on it, which it 2063 01:49:46.960 --> 01:49:49.640 doesn't just run on the glasses. It also it kind 2064 01:49:49.680 --> 01:49:53.439 of proxies through your phone. But I mean, with all 2065 01:49:53.479 --> 01:49:57.399 the advances in LLMS, we talked about this a bit 2066 01:49:57.439 --> 01:50:02.039 and the first part of the conversation. Having the ability 2067 01:50:02.119 --> 01:50:04.640 to have your METAAI assistant that you can just talk 2068 01:50:04.680 --> 01:50:07.960 to and basically ask any question throughout the day is 2069 01:50:08.399 --> 01:50:11.119 I think it'd be really fascinating, and you know, like 2070 01:50:11.159 --> 01:50:14.640 you were saying about kind of how we process the 2071 01:50:14.680 --> 01:50:18.680 world as people. Eventually, I think you're going to want 2072 01:50:18.680 --> 01:50:21.479 your AI assistant to be able to see what you 2073 01:50:21.520 --> 01:50:23.840 see and hear what you hear. Maybe not all the time, 2074 01:50:23.840 --> 01:50:25.479 but you're going to want to be able to tell 2075 01:50:25.520 --> 01:50:27.640 it to go into a mode where it can see 2076 01:50:27.680 --> 01:50:30.279 what you see and hear what you hear. And what's 2077 01:50:30.319 --> 01:50:35.279 the kind of device design that best kind of positions 2078 01:50:35.279 --> 01:50:37.039 an AI assistant to be able to see what you 2079 01:50:37.079 --> 01:50:39.600 see and hear what you hear, so can best help you. Well, 2080 01:50:39.600 --> 01:50:42.319 that's glasses right where or basically as a sensor to 2081 01:50:42.319 --> 01:50:46.199 be able to see what you see, and a microphone 2082 01:50:46.600 --> 01:50:49.000 that is close to your ears that can hear what 2083 01:50:49.039 --> 01:50:53.560 you hear. The other design goals is, like you said, 2084 01:50:54.279 --> 01:50:57.239 to keep you present in the world. So I think 2085 01:50:57.600 --> 01:51:01.000 one of the issues with phones is they kind of 2086 01:51:01.000 --> 01:51:04.359 pull you away from from what's physically happening around you. 2087 01:51:04.399 --> 01:51:06.199 And I don't think that the next generation of computing 2088 01:51:06.239 --> 01:51:06.680 will do that. 2089 01:51:07.720 --> 01:51:09.479 I just I'm chuckling to myself because I have a 2090 01:51:09.479 --> 01:51:11.479 friend he's a very well known photographer, and he was 2091 01:51:11.560 --> 01:51:13.920 laughing about how you know, people go to a concert 2092 01:51:14.359 --> 01:51:17.319 and everyone's filming the concert on their phone so that 2093 01:51:17.359 --> 01:51:19.039 they can be the person that posts a thing. But like, 2094 01:51:19.079 --> 01:51:21.159 there are literally millions of other people who post the 2095 01:51:21.239 --> 01:51:24.680 exact same thing, but somehow our unique it feels

important 2096 01:51:24.680 --> 01:51:28.239 to post our unique experience with glasses that would essentially 2097 01:51:28.359 --> 01:51:32.560 have smooth that gap completely totally. You could just worry 2098 01:51:32.560 --> 01:51:35.319 about it later download it. There are issues I realize 2099 01:51:35.359 --> 01:51:39.199 with glasses because they are so seamless with everyday experience, 2100 01:51:39.199 --> 01:51:41.159 even though you and I aren't wearing them now, it's 2101 01:51:41.239 --> 01:51:45.119 very common for people to wear glasses issues of recording 2102 01:51:45.119 --> 01:51:48.720 and consent. Go into a locker room at my gym, 2103 01:51:49.399 --> 01:51:51.680 I'm assuming that the people with glasses aren't filming whereas 2104 01:51:51.720 --> 01:51:55.039 one right now, because there's a sharp transition when when 2105 01:51:55.079 --> 01:51:57.560 there's a phone in the room and someone's pointing it. 2106 01:51:58.560 --> 01:52:03.640 People generally no phones in locker rooms and recording. So 2107 01:52:03.760 --> 01:52:05.640 that's just one instance. I mean their other instance, we. 2108 01:52:05.680 --> 01:52:07.319 Have the whole privacy light. I don't know, did you 2109 01:52:07.399 --> 01:52:10.560 did you get to explore that? Yeah, So it's anytime 2110 01:52:10.640 --> 01:52:15.199 that it's active that the camera sensor is active. It's 2111 01:52:15.239 --> 01:52:18.720 it's basically like pulsing a white bright light. Got it, So, 2112 01:52:19.079 --> 01:52:23.079 which is, by the way, more than cameras do. Right Someone, 2113 01:52:25.039 --> 01:52:28.399 phones aren't aren't kind of showing a light bright sensor 2114 01:52:28.479 --> 01:52:29.840 when when you're taking a photo. 2115 01:52:29.920 --> 01:52:32.600 So no. People oftentimes will pretend they're texting and they're 2116 01:52:32.600 --> 01:52:34.840 actually recording. I actually saw an instance of this in 2117 01:52:34.880 --> 01:52:37.960 a barbershop once where someone was recording and they were 2118 01:52:37.960 --> 01:52:40.319 pretending that they were texting, and there was interesting. It 2119 01:52:40.319 --> 01:52:44.239 was a pretty intense interaction that ensued and it was like, wow, 2120 01:52:44.279 --> 01:52:47.199 you know, it's pretty easy for people to feign texting 2121 01:52:47.239 --> 01:52:48.479 while actually recording. 2122 01:52:48.840 --> 01:52:53.479 Yeah, so, I think when you're evaluating a risk with 2123 01:52:53.520 --> 01:52:58.720 a new technology, the bar shouldn't be is it possible 2124 01:52:58.880 --> 01:53:03.479 to do anything bad? It's does this new technology make 2125 01:53:03.520 --> 01:53:06.720 it easier to do something bad than what people already had? 2126 01:53:07.239 --> 01:53:10.159 And I think because you have this privacy light that 2127 01:53:10.279 --> 01:53:12.760 is just broadcasting to everyone around you, Hey, this thing 2128 01:53:12.840 --> 01:53:16.079 is recording now, I think that that makes it actually 2129 01:53:17.439 --> 01:53:20.359 less discreet to do it through the glasses than what 2130 01:53:20.399 --> 01:53:23.199 you could do with the phone already, which I think 2131 01:53:23.279 --> 01:53:25.279 is basically the bar that we wanted to get over. 2132 01:53:25.359 --> 01:53:26.520 From a design perspective. 2133 01:53:26.960 --> 01:53:28.920 Thank you for pointing out that it has the privacy light. 2134 01:53:29.000 --> 01:53:31.760 I didn't get long enough in the experience to explore 2135 01:53:31.760 --> 01:53:34.680 all the features, but again, I can think of a 2136 01:53:34.760 --> 01:53:38.399 lot of uses being able to look at a restaurant 2137 01:53:38.399 --> 01:53:41.960 from the outside and see the menu, get status on 2138 01:53:42.039 --> 01:53:46.000 how crowded it is. As much as I love I 2139 01:53:46.039 --> 01:53:48.880 don't want to call out. Let's just say app based 2140 01:53:49.079 --> 01:53:52.319 map functions that allow you to navigate and the audio 2141 01:53:52.680 --> 01:53:55.800 is okay. It's nice to have a conversation with somebody 2142 01:53:56.000 --> 01:53:58.119 on the phone or in the vehicle, and just it'd 2143 01:53:58.119 --> 01:54:00.279 be great if the road was traced where I should earn. 2144 01:54:00.760 --> 01:54:03.000 Absolutely these kinds of things seem like it's gonna be 2145 01:54:03.079 --> 01:54:05.239 straightforward for for a meta. 2146 01:54:05.079 --> 01:54:07.760 Engineers to create future version. We'll have it so but 2147 01:54:07.880 --> 01:54:09.920 also have the holographic display where it can show you 2148 01:54:10.000 --> 01:54:13.119 the directions. But I think there will just basically just 2149 01:54:13.159 --> 01:54:17.760 be different price points that pack different amounts of technology. 2150 01:54:17.960 --> 01:54:20.119 The holographic display part, I think is going to be 2151 01:54:20.479 --> 01:54:22.960 more expensive than doing one that just has the AI 2152 01:54:23.600 --> 01:54:27.720 but is but it's primarily communicating you with you through audio. 2153 01:54:28.039 --> 01:54:30.920 So I mean that the current ray band metaglasses are 2154 01:54:31.239 --> 01:54:34.520 two ninety nine, you know, I think when we have 2155 01:54:34.560 --> 01:54:36.560 one that has a display in it, it will probably 2156 01:54:36.600 --> 01:54:38.279 be some amount more than that, but it will also 2157 01:54:38.399 --> 01:54:41.399 be more powerful. So I think that it'll people choose 2158 01:54:41.399 --> 01:54:44.399 what they want to use based on what the capabilities 2159 01:54:44.439 --> 01:54:48.000 are that they want and what they can afford. But 2160 01:54:48.119 --> 01:54:53.279 a lot of our goal in building things is, you know, 2161 01:54:53.319 --> 01:54:56.359 we try to make things that can be accessible to everyone. 2162 01:54:57.399 --> 01:55:00.479 You know, our game as a company isn't to build 2163 01:55:00.560 --> 01:55:04.119

things and then charge a premium price for it. We 2164 01:55:04.159 --> 01:55:07.600 try to build things that then everyone can use and 2165 01:55:07.640 --> 01:55:10.239 then become more useful because of a very large number 2166 01:55:10.279 --> 01:55:13.319 of people are using them. So it's just a very 2167 01:55:13.319 --> 01:55:16.439 different approach. You know, We're not We're not like Apple 2168 01:55:16.840 --> 01:55:19.359 or some of these companies that just try to make 2169 01:55:19.399 --> 01:55:22.920 something and then sell it for as much as they can, 2170 01:55:23.079 --> 01:55:25.199 which I mean, they're a great company, So I mean 2171 01:55:25.239 --> 01:55:27.760 I forgot that that model kind of is fine too, 2172 01:55:28.199 --> 01:55:31.760 But our approaches can be we want stuff that can 2173 01:55:31.800 --> 01:55:33.680 be affordable. It's that way everyone in the world can 2174 01:55:33.800 --> 01:55:34.039 use it. 2175 01:55:34.640 --> 01:55:37.279 Long lines of health, I think the glasses will also 2176 01:55:37.319 --> 01:55:40.640 potentially solve a major problem in a real way, which 2177 01:55:40.720 --> 01:55:43.920 is the following for both children and adults. It's very 2178 01:55:43.960 --> 01:55:47.000 clear that viewing objects, in particular screens up close for 2179 01:55:47.039 --> 01:55:50.199 too many hours per day leads to myopia literally a 2180 01:55:50.279 --> 01:55:52.279 change in the length and length of the eyeball and 2181 01:55:52.319 --> 01:55:57.039 near sightedness. And on the positive side, we know, based 2182 01:55:57.079 --> 01:56:01.159 on some really large clinical trials thatids who spend and 2183 01:56:01.239 --> 01:56:03.880 adults who spend two hours a day or more out 2184 01:56:03.920 --> 01:56:08.520 of doors don't experience that and maybe even reverse their myopia. 2185 01:56:08.560 --> 01:56:10.840 And it has something to do with exposure to sunlight, 2186 01:56:10.880 --> 01:56:12.680 but it has a lot to do with long viewing, 2187 01:56:12.800 --> 01:56:14.920 viewing things at a distance greater than three or four 2188 01:56:14.960 --> 01:56:17.760 feet away, and with the glasses, I realize one could 2189 01:56:17.800 --> 01:56:22.439 actually do digital work out of doors. It could measure 2190 01:56:22.640 --> 01:56:25.239 and tell you how much time you've spent looking at 2191 01:56:25.279 --> 01:56:27.880 things up close versus far away. I mean, this is 2192 01:56:27.920 --> 01:56:31.439 just another example that leaps to mind. But in accessing 2193 01:56:31.439 --> 01:56:34.920 the visual system, you're effectively accessing the whole brain, because 2194 01:56:34.920 --> 01:56:36.720 it's the only two bits of brain that are outside 2195 01:56:36.760 --> 01:56:39.359 the cranial vault. So it just seems like putting technology 2196 01:56:39.439 --> 01:56:41.279 right at the level of the eyes, seeing what the 2197 01:56:41.319 --> 01:56:43.880 eyes see is just got to be the

best way 2198 01:56:43.920 --> 01:56:44.119 to go. 2199 01:56:44.880 --> 01:56:49.079 Yeah, I think, well multimodal, right, I think is you 2200 01:56:49.119 --> 01:56:54.399 want the visual sensation, but you also want kind of 2201 01:56:54.479 --> 01:56:55.920 text or language, So. 2202 01:56:56.079 --> 01:56:58.119 Sure, I think it's that all can be brought to 2203 01:56:58.159 --> 01:57:01.199 the level of the eyes, right. What do you mean, Well, 2204 01:57:01.239 --> 01:57:04.319 I mean, I think what we're describing here is essentially 2205 01:57:04.359 --> 01:57:07.560 taking the phone, the computer and bringing it all to 2206 01:57:07.600 --> 01:57:09.479 the level of the eyes. And of course one would 2207 01:57:09.520 --> 01:57:12.359 like one physically at your eyes, right, and one would 2208 01:57:12.439 --> 01:57:15.000 like more kinesthetic information as you mentioned before, where the 2209 01:57:15.079 --> 01:57:17.279 legs are maybe even long function Hey, have you taken 2210 01:57:17.359 --> 01:57:19.760 enough steps today. But but that all can be if 2211 01:57:19.800 --> 01:57:21.119 it can be figured out on the phone. It can 2212 01:57:21.159 --> 01:57:23.880 be by the phone, it can be figured out by glasses. 2213 01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:27.520 But there's additional information there, such as what are you 2214 01:57:27.560 --> 01:57:29.439 focusing on in your world? How much of your time 2215 01:57:29.479 --> 01:57:31.960 is spent looking at things far away versus up close? 2216 01:57:32.039 --> 01:57:34.319 How much social time did you have today? So it's 2217 01:57:34.319 --> 01:57:36.439 really tricky to get that with a phone, like they 2218 01:57:36.479 --> 01:57:38.119 give my phone right in front of us, as if 2219 01:57:38.119 --> 01:57:40.880 we were at a standard lunch nowadays certainly silicon value, 2220 01:57:41.079 --> 01:57:42.760 and then we're peering at our phones. I mean, how 2221 01:57:42.840 --> 01:57:45.840 much real direct attention was in the conversation at hand 2222 01:57:45.920 --> 01:57:47.920 versus something else. I mean, you can get issues of 2223 01:57:47.960 --> 01:57:51.920 where are you placing your attention by virtue of where 2224 01:57:51.920 --> 01:57:54.199 you're placing your eyes, And I think that information is 2225 01:57:54.239 --> 01:57:56.319 not accessible with a phone in your pocket or in 2226 01:57:56.359 --> 01:57:59.000 front of you. I mean that a little bit, but 2227 01:57:59.279 --> 01:58:02.439 not nearly as rich and complete information as one gets 2228 01:58:02.479 --> 01:58:04.560 when you're really pulling the data from the level of 2229 01:58:05.000 --> 01:58:08.039 vision and what kids and adults are actually looking at 2230 01:58:08.039 --> 01:58:12.439 and attending to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is extremely valuable. 2231 01:58:12.880 --> 01:58:15.640 You get autonomic information size of the pupils, so you 2232 01:58:15.640 --> 01:58:19.159 get information about internal

states. I mean that. 2233 01:58:18.720 --> 01:58:22.720 There's internal sensor and outside. So there's the sensor on 2234 01:58:22.760 --> 01:58:26.600 the ray bound metaglasses is external, right, so it's basically 2235 01:58:26.600 --> 01:58:30.319 allows you to see what you see then sorry the 2236 01:58:30.319 --> 01:58:33.319 AIS system to see what you're seeing. There's a separate 2237 01:58:33.359 --> 01:58:37.680 set of things which are I tracking, which are also 2238 01:58:37.760 --> 01:58:41.960 very powerful for enabling a lot of interfaces. Right, so 2239 01:58:42.199 --> 01:58:43.399 you want to if you want to just like look 2240 01:58:43.439 --> 01:58:47.119 at something and select it by looking at it with 2241 01:58:47.159 --> 01:58:49.199 your eyes rather than having to kind of drag a 2242 01:58:49.239 --> 01:58:53.760 controller over or pick up a hologram or anything like that, 2243 01:58:53.840 --> 01:58:57.479 you can do that with I tracking. So that's a 2244 01:58:57.520 --> 01:59:01.960 pretty profound and cool expertsvariance too, as well as just 2245 01:59:02.039 --> 01:59:03.800 kind of understanding what you're looking at so that way 2246 01:59:03.800 --> 01:59:07.239 you're not kind of wasting compute power drawing pixels in 2247 01:59:07.319 --> 01:59:09.760 high resolution a part of the kind of world that 2248 01:59:09.800 --> 01:59:11.680 you're not that's going to be in your peripheral vision. 2249 01:59:13.159 --> 01:59:18.199 So yeah, all of these things there are interesting design 2250 01:59:18.279 --> 01:59:22.239 and technology trade offs where if you want the external sensor, 2251 01:59:22.920 --> 01:59:25.119 that's one thing. If you also want the eye tracking, 2252 01:59:25.840 --> 01:59:27.800 now that's a different set of sensors. Each one of 2253 01:59:27.840 --> 01:59:33.479 these consumes compute, which consumes battery, they take up more space, right, 2254 01:59:33.520 --> 01:59:35.399 So it's like where are the eye tracking sensors going 2255 01:59:35.479 --> 01:59:36.960 to be? It's like, what you want to make sure 2256 01:59:36.960 --> 01:59:39.439 that the rim of the glasses is actually quite thin, 2257 01:59:39.640 --> 01:59:42.960 because I mean it's you know, there's a kind of 2258 01:59:43.039 --> 01:59:46.479 variance of how thick can glasses be before they look 2259 01:59:46.520 --> 01:59:50.760 more like goggles than glasses. Saying that this is there's 2260 01:59:50.800 --> 01:59:52.399 this whole space, and I think people are gonna end 2261 01:59:52.439 --> 01:59:54.920 up choosing what product makes sense for them. Maybe they 2262 01:59:54.960 --> 01:59:56.680 want something that's more powerful, that is more of the 2263 01:59:56.720 --> 01:59:59.920 sensors it's but it's going to be a little more expensive, 2264 02:00:00.039 --> 02:00:02.840 maybe like slightly thicker, or maybe you want like a 2265 02:00:02.840 --> 02:00:06.159 more basic thing that just looks like very similar to 2266

02:00:06.159 --> 02:00:08.199 what ray band glasses are that people have been wearing 2267 02:00:08.239 --> 02:00:10.880 for decades, but kind of has AI in it, and 2268 02:00:10.920 --> 02:00:13.800 you can capture moments without having to take your phone 2269 02:00:13.800 --> 02:00:16.119 out and send them to people. In the latest version, 2270 02:00:16.680 --> 02:00:20.600 we got the ability into live stream. I think that 2271 02:00:20.600 --> 02:00:23.319 that's pretty crazy that now you can be kind of 2272 02:00:23.520 --> 02:00:26.399 going back to your concert case or whatever else you're doing. 2273 02:00:26.399 --> 02:00:29.039 You know, you can be you know doing sports and 2274 02:00:29.520 --> 02:00:32.640 just you know, watching your kids play something and just 2275 02:00:32.920 --> 02:00:35.079 you can be watching and you can be live streaming 2276 02:00:35.119 --> 02:00:39.000 it to your your kind of family group so people 2277 02:00:39.039 --> 02:00:41.840 can see it. I think that like that stuff is. 2278 02:00:43.359 --> 02:00:45.279 I think that's pretty cool that you basically have a 2279 02:00:45.319 --> 02:00:47.920 normal looking pair of glasses at this point that can 2280 02:00:48.199 --> 02:00:50.760 kind of live stream and has like an AI assistant. 2281 02:00:50.800 --> 02:00:54.079 So the stuff is making a lot faster progress in 2282 02:00:54.119 --> 02:00:57.359 a lot of ways than I would have thought. And 2283 02:00:57.399 --> 02:00:58.960 I don't know. I think people are gonna like this version, 2284 02:00:59.000 --> 02:00:59.960 but there's a lot more still to do. 2285 02:01:00.920 --> 02:01:02.840 I think it's super exciting, and I see a lot 2286 02:01:02.880 --> 02:01:05.479 of technologies. This one's particularly exciting to me because of 2287 02:01:05.520 --> 02:01:08.119 how smooth the interface is and for all the reasons 2288 02:01:08.119 --> 02:01:11.880 that you just mentioned. What's happening with and what can 2289 02:01:11.880 --> 02:01:16.439 we expect around AI interfaces and maybe even avatars of 2290 02:01:16.520 --> 02:01:20.880 people within social media? Are we not far off from 2291 02:01:20.880 --> 02:01:24.840 a day where there are multiple versions of me and 2292 02:01:24.920 --> 02:01:26.800 you on the internet, where people, for instance, I get 2293 02:01:26.800 --> 02:01:29.159 asked a lot of questions. I don't have the opportunity 2294 02:01:29.159 --> 02:01:32.479 to respond all those questions, but with things like chat GPT, 2295 02:01:32.600 --> 02:01:34.680 people are trying to generate answers to those questions on 2296 02:01:34.720 --> 02:01:37.399 other platforms. Will I have the opportunity to soon have 2297 02:01:37.439 --> 02:01:39.720 an AI version of myself where people can ask me 2298 02:01:39.800 --> 02:01:44.079 questions about like what I recommend for sleep in, circadian rhythm, fitness, 2299 02:01:44.640 --> 02:01:47.239 mental health, et cetera, based on content I've already generated 2300 02:01:47.239 --> 02:01:49.640 that will be accurate, so they could just ask my avatar. 2301 02:01:50.640 --> 02:01:53.600 Yeah, this is something that I think a lot of 2302 02:01:53.640 --> 02:01:58.439 creators are going to want that that we're trying to build, 2303 02:01:59.600 --> 02:02:02.479 and I think we'll probably have a version of next year. 2304 02:02:03.119 --> 02:02:06.159 But there's a bunch of constraints that I think we 2305 02:02:06.239 --> 02:02:08.479 need to make sure that we get right. So, for one, 2306 02:02:09.079 --> 02:02:12.039 I think it's really important that it's not that there's 2307 02:02:12.079 --> 02:02:14.520 a bunch of versions of you. It's that if anyone 2308 02:02:14.560 --> 02:02:18.640 is creating like an AI assistant version of you, it 2309 02:02:18.640 --> 02:02:21.359 should be something that you control, right. It's I think 2310 02:02:21.359 --> 02:02:23.239 there's some platforms that are out there today that just 2311 02:02:23.319 --> 02:02:26.479 let people like you know, make I don't know, the 2312 02:02:26.840 --> 02:02:30.359 AI bot of me or other figures, and it's like, 2313 02:02:30.600 --> 02:02:33.600 I don't know. I mean, we we have platform policies 2314 02:02:33.640 --> 02:02:40.319 for not for like decades, like you know, since the 2315 02:02:40.319 --> 02:02:42.000 beginning of the company at this point, which is almost 2316 02:02:42.039 --> 02:02:46.880 twenty years that that basically don't allow impersonation, you know, 2317 02:02:47.000 --> 02:02:49.439 real identity is like one of the core aspects that 2318 02:02:49.439 --> 02:02:51.920 that kind of our company was started on is like 2319 02:02:52.000 --> 02:02:55.520 you want to kind of authentically be yourself. So yeah, 2320 02:02:55.720 --> 02:02:59.600 I think if you're, if you're almost any creator, being 2321 02:02:59.640 --> 02:03:04.359 able to to engage your community, and there's just going 2322 02:03:04.399 --> 02:03:07.319 to be more demand to interact with you than you 2323 02:03:07.359 --> 02:03:10.000 have hours in the day. So there are both people 2324 02:03:10.039 --> 02:03:12.239 who out there who would benefit from being able to 2325 02:03:12.239 --> 02:03:15.359 talk to an AI version of you, and I think 2326 02:03:15.640 --> 02:03:18.119 you and other creators would benefit from being able to 2327 02:03:18.159 --> 02:03:21.239 keep your community engaged and service that demand that people 2328 02:03:21.319 --> 02:03:24.079 have to engage with you. But you're going to want 2329 02:03:24.079 --> 02:03:27.840 to know that that AI kind of version of you 2330 02:03:27.960 --> 02:03:31.159 or assistant is going to represent you the way that 2331 02:03:31.199 --> 02:03:34.359 you would want. And there are a lot of things 2332 02:03:34.399 --> 02:03:37.840 that are awesome about kind of these modern lms, but 2333 02:03:38.840 --> 02:03:43.079 having perfect predictability about how it's going to

represent something 2334 02:03:43.159 --> 02:03:46.640 is not one of the current strengths. So I think 2335 02:03:46.640 --> 02:03:48.000 that there's some work that needs to get done there. 2336 02:03:48.000 --> 02:03:49.680 I don't think it needs to be one hundred percent 2337 02:03:49.720 --> 02:03:51.560 perfect all of the time, but you need to have 2338 02:03:51.680 --> 02:03:54.319 very good confidence I would say that that's going to 2339 02:03:54.319 --> 02:03:55.960 represent you the way that you'd want for you to 2340 02:03:56.159 --> 02:03:58.359 want to turn it on, which again you should have 2341 02:03:58.359 --> 02:04:01.119 control over whether you turn it on. So we wanted 2342 02:04:01.159 --> 02:04:03.560 to start in a different place, which I think is 2343 02:04:03.560 --> 02:04:09.800 a somewhat easier problem, which is creating new characters that 2344 02:04:09.920 --> 02:04:14.760 the AI persona so that way it's not you know, 2345 02:04:14.800 --> 02:04:17.680 we we built you know, one of the ais is 2346 02:04:18.359 --> 02:04:22.000 like a chef, and they can help you kind of 2347 02:04:22.159 --> 02:04:24.600 come up with things that you should that you could 2348 02:04:24.640 --> 02:04:28.039 cook and can help you cook them. There's like a 2349 02:04:28.039 --> 02:04:30.159 couple of people that are interested in different types of 2350 02:04:30.159 --> 02:04:32.880 fitness that can help you kind of plan out your 2351 02:04:32.920 --> 02:04:36.439 workouts or help with recovery or different things like that. 2352 02:04:37.319 --> 02:04:40.279 There are people there's an AI that's focused on like 2353 02:04:40.399 --> 02:04:44.760 di y crafts. There's someone who's a travel expert that 2354 02:04:44.760 --> 02:04:47.000 can help you make travel plans or give you ideas. 2355 02:04:47.000 --> 02:04:49.199 So but the key thing about all these is they're 2356 02:04:49.239 --> 02:04:53.119 not they're not modeled off of existing people, so they 2357 02:04:53.159 --> 02:04:56.920 don't have to have kind of one hundred percent fidelity 2358 02:04:57.000 --> 02:04:59.720 to like making sure that they never say something that 2359 02:05:00.119 --> 02:05:02.760 you know, a real person who they're modeled after would 2360 02:05:02.760 --> 02:05:06.079 never say because they're just made up characters. So that 2361 02:05:06.079 --> 02:05:11.159 that is that's someone easier problem. We actually got the 2362 02:05:11.479 --> 02:05:15.560 We got a bunch of different kind of well known 2363 02:05:15.600 --> 02:05:18.119 people to play those characters because we thought that would 2364 02:05:18.159 --> 02:05:20.439 make it more fun. So there's like Snoop Dogg is 2365 02:05:20.479 --> 02:05:22.479 the dungeon Master, so you can like drop him into 2366 02:05:22.479 --> 02:05:25.199 a thread and play text based games. And it's just 2367 02:05:25.239 --> 02:05:27.520 like I do this with my daughter when I when 2368 02:05:27.520 --> 02:05:29.640 I tuck her in at night, and she just like 2369 02:05:29.720 --> 02:05:34.439 loves like like storytelling, right, and it's like it's like 2370 02:05:34.439 --> 02:05:36.600 like Snoop Dogg is the Dungeon Master will come up 2371 02:05:36.600 --> 02:05:38.920 with like here's what's happening next, and she's like, Okay, 2372 02:05:38.960 --> 02:05:40.800 I like turn into a mermaid and then I like 2373 02:05:40.840 --> 02:05:43.520 swim across the bay and I go and find the 2374 02:05:44.079 --> 02:05:45.960 treasure chest and unlock it. And it's like and then 2375 02:05:46.039 --> 02:05:48.239 Snoop Dogg just always will have a next version of 2376 02:05:48.279 --> 02:05:50.720 the like the next iteration on the story. So and 2377 02:05:50.760 --> 02:05:53.560 it's stuff is fun. But you know it's not actually 2378 02:05:53.600 --> 02:05:55.560 Snoop Dogg. He's just kind of the actor. He's playing 2379 02:05:55.560 --> 02:05:58.359 the dungeon Master, which makes it more fun. So that's 2380 02:05:58.399 --> 02:06:01.000 probably the right place to start, is you have like 2381 02:06:01.800 --> 02:06:04.720 you can kind of build versions of these characters that 2382 02:06:04.720 --> 02:06:07.359 that people can interact with doing different things. But I 2383 02:06:07.359 --> 02:06:09.800 think where you want to get over time is to 2384 02:06:09.840 --> 02:06:13.520 the place where any creator or any small business can 2385 02:06:13.680 --> 02:06:17.840 very easily just create an AI assistant that can represent 2386 02:06:17.880 --> 02:06:21.920 them and interact with your kind of community or customers 2387 02:06:21.960 --> 02:06:26.640 if you're a business, and basically just help you grow 2388 02:06:27.199 --> 02:06:30.039 your your enterprise. So I don't know, I think that's 2389 02:06:30.039 --> 02:06:31.760 gonna be cool. But I think this is it's a 2390 02:06:31.800 --> 02:06:34.199 long term project. I think we'll have more progress on 2391 02:06:34.279 --> 02:06:38.119 it to report on next year. But but I think 2392 02:06:38.159 --> 02:06:38.680 that's coming. 2393 02:06:40.000 --> 02:06:42.239 I'm super excited about because you know, we hear a 2394 02:06:42.239 --> 02:06:44.239 lot about the downsides of AI. I mean, I think 2395 02:06:44.279 --> 02:06:47.680 people are now coming around to the reality that AI 2396 02:06:47.760 --> 02:06:49.239 is neither good nor bad. It can be used for 2397 02:06:49.279 --> 02:06:50.600 good or bad, and that there are a lot of 2398 02:06:50.920 --> 02:06:53.359 life enhancing spaces that it's going to show up and 2399 02:06:53.399 --> 02:06:58.000 really really improve the way that we engage socially, what 2400 02:06:58.039 --> 02:07:01.359 we learn, and that mental health and physical health don't 2401 02:07:01.399 --> 02:07:03.119 have to suffer and in fact can be enhanced by 2402 02:07:03.239 --> 02:07:06.000 the sorts of technologies we've been talking about. So I 2403 02:07:06.039 -->

02:07:11.279 know you're extremely busy. I so appreciate the large amount 2404 02:07:11.319 --> 02:07:13.720 of time you've given me today to sort through all 2405 02:07:13.800 --> 02:07:16.000 these things. Fun and to talk with you and Priscilla 2406 02:07:16.079 --> 02:07:19.479 and to hear what's happening and where things are headed. 2407 02:07:20.479 --> 02:07:23.840 The future certainly is bright. I share in your optimism 2408 02:07:23.880 --> 02:07:28.319 and it's been only strengthened by today's conversation. So thank 2409 02:07:28.359 --> 02:07:30.479 you so much, and keep doing what you're doing, and 2410 02:07:31.640 --> 02:07:35.119 on behalf of myself and everyone listening. Thank you, because 2411 02:07:35.479 --> 02:07:39.600 regardless of what people say, we all use these platforms excitedly, 2412 02:07:39.760 --> 02:07:42.399 and it's clear that there's a ton of intention and 2413 02:07:42.479 --> 02:07:47.640 care and thought about, you know, what could be in 2414 02:07:47.680 --> 02:07:51.000 the positive sense, and that's really worth highlighting. 2415 02:07:51.399 --> 02:07:53.039 Awesome, Thank you, I appreciate it. 2416 02:07:54.199 --> 02:07:56.399 Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Mark 2417 02:07:56.479 --> 02:07:59.680 Zuckerberg and doctor Priscilla Chan. If you're learning from and 2418 02:07:59.800 --> 02:08:02.840 or joining this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. 2419 02:08:03.000 --> 02:08:06.039 That's a terrific, zero cost way to support us. In addition, 2420 02:08:06.119 --> 02:08:08.920 please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple, 2421 02:08:09.079 --> 02:08:11.239 and on both Spotify and Apple you can leave us 2422 02:08:11.279 --> 02:08:13.800 up to a five star review. Please also check out 2423 02:08:13.840 --> 02:08:16.800 the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. 2424 02:08:16.840 --> 02:08:19.640 That's the best way to support this podcast. If you 2425 02:08:19.640 --> 02:08:22.079 have questions for me or comments about the podcast, or 2426 02:08:22.159 --> 02:08:23.840 guests that you'd like me to consider hosting on the 2427 02:08:23.880 --> 02:08:26.800 Hubreman Lab podcast, Please put those in the comment section 2428 02:08:26.920 --> 02:08:29.560 on YouTube. I do read all the comments, not during 2429 02:08:29.560 --> 02:08:32.159 today's episode, but on many previous episodes of the Hubrewman 2430 02:08:32.239 --> 02:08:36.279 Lab podcast. We discuss supplements. While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, 2431 02:08:36.479 --> 02:08:39.439 many people derive tremendous benefit from them for things like 2432 02:08:39.560 --> 02:08:43.279 enhancing sleep, hormone support, and improving focus. If you'd like 2433 02:08:43.279 --> 02:08:45.279 to learn more about the supplements discussed on the Heubreman 2434 02:08:45.359 --> 02:08:48.640 Lab podcast, you can go to live Momentus spelled OUs 2435 02:08:48.840 --> 02:08:52.680 so livemomentous dot com slash Huberman. If you're not already 2436 02:08:52.680 --> 02:08:55.399 following me on social media, it's Huberman Lab on all 2437 02:08:55.439 --> 02:09:01.000 social media platforms. So that's Instagram, Twitter, now called xa's, Facebook, LinkedIn, 2438 02:09:01.359 --> 02:09:03.560 and on all those places. I discussed signs and science 2439 02:09:03.600 --> 02:09:05.840 related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of 2440 02:09:05.880 --> 02:09:08.479 the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct 2441 02:09:08.520 --> 02:09:10.800 from the content on the Huberman Lab podcast. So again, 2442 02:09:10.960 --> 02:09:13.960 it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. If you 2443 02:09:14.000 --> 02:09:17.239 haven't already subscribed to our monthly Neural Network newsletter, the 2444 02:09:17.279 --> 02:09:20.720 Neural Network Newsletter is a completely zero cost newsletter that 2445 02:09:20.800 --> 02:09:23.680 gives you podcast summaries as well as toolkits in the 2446 02:09:23.680 --> 02:09:27.800 form of brief PDFs. We've had toolkits related to optimizing sleep, 2447 02:09:28.079 --> 02:09:33.199 to regulating dopamine, deliberate cold exposure, fitness, mental health, learning 2448 02:09:33.199 --> 02:09:36.600 and neuroplasticity, and much more. Again, it's completely zero cost. 2449 02:09:36.680 --> 02:09:38.840 To sign up. You simply go to Hubermanlab dot com, 2450 02:09:38.880 --> 02:09:41.119 go over to the menu tab, scroll down a newsletter, 2451 02:09:41.239 --> 02:09:43.800 and supply your email. I should emphasize that we do 2452 02:09:43.880 --> 02:09:46.840 not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again 2453 02:09:46.880 --> 02:09:49.680 for joining me for today's discussion with Mark Zuckerberg and 2454 02:09:49.800 --> 02:09:53.439 doctor Priscilla Chan. And last, but certainly not least, thank 2455 02:09:53.479 --> 02:09:54.800 you for your interest in science.