Full Transcript for Ask HTM - Combining Our Finances, Dental Insurance Considerations, & When Whole Life Makes Sense #712

Speaker 3: Hi'm Matt and Joel. This is Phil from Annapolis. I wanted to get your opinion on dental insurance. I know you've mentioned other financial instruments in the past, such as home warranties and so forth, and episode number seven hundred, I thought that you might have a unique take on dental insurance. From what I understand, most dental insurance does have a cap as what they pay out, and also there seems to be a fifty dollars deductible pretty frequently. So anyway, I welcome your input and thank you very much. 00:05:24 Speaker 1: I feel like Phil needs to take the mat route, which is not only avoiding dental insurance, but avoiding dental work. 00:05:30 Speaker 2: Just it has been ten years. Well, so I got my teeth checked out last was it last year? Is right before we moved, and it had been ten years before I had previously seen the seen the dentists. Well, your philosophy has always been today broke my teeth weren't broke. I mean, it depends on why do I need one? Hey, it's true, but it is a personal thing. Right, I'm lucky enough to have healthy teeth, healthy gums when I went last year, no Cavity's baby do So okay, let me throw let me. 00:06:00 Speaker 1: Some people are naturally predisposed to have clean mouth, I guess, and you're one of them. 00:06:03 Speaker 2: So here's the thing I might be assuming that all of our family members also have the same teeth as I do. So this is where the real fill I probably will get to your will answer your question here in a second. But Joel, so I haven't take We haven't taken any of the kids in to get their teeth checked. And our oldest is ten, she has not yet been into the dentist. Obviously, we've got younger kids as well, And so that's the potential frugal or cheap where I might wear Kate and I. It's both of us where we might be going a little cheap because we haven't taken them into the dentist. But it's also because in the state of Georgia, you need a certain form filled out in order for them to go to the public school. It's the Georgia Department of Health Form thirty three hundred. I know it because it's always kind of a battle to get your pediatrician to sign it, but they are authorized. They can sign off and say, oh, yep, I looked at their teeth. 00:06:51 Speaker 1: They're good, and I figure's so authorized to roll their eyes when you ask them to do it. They're like, just take your kid to the dentists. 00:06:56 Speaker 2: But I figure, if there's something bad enough that a ptry, your family. 00:07:00 Speaker 1: Doctor will be able to catch it. Sure, but at some point I do know there's. 00:07:04 Speaker 2: Something really wrong. 00:07:05 Speaker 1: Hopefully your patric shop like, dude, come on exactly and speak to you forthrightly. But at some point, yes, I do know. 00:07:10 Speaker 2: Everybody, don't send in the hate, noil I we will take our kids to the dentist, but it's a thing in our household. Literally, Kate Man, this is long winded. Last point. Did did I have I shared

that Kate got me dental tools for Christmas last year? 00:07:22 Speaker 4: No? 00:07:22 Speaker 2: Did I have ever even told you this? 00:07:24 Speaker 4: No? 00:07:24 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. It was like a stocking stuffer. It was like a joke, but literally like the little pick with like little scraper she got me a little like it was a pack that you could buy of dental tools. And I'm like, babe, you're just you're taking things a little too far here, because I'm not going to like poke my up myself in the gun, you know, like that's like the painful part. Let me reinforce getting your Partically, anything you hear on this podcast should not be done for batim. You should listen to the advice of a trusted medical professional. And I have not used these tools. I'm just saying it, Okay, I think it was part joke, part he actually might want to give us a shot. So let's get it. Let's get to Phil's question. 00:08:01 Speaker 1: Sorry, Phil, let's get to it and specifically talk about dental insurance and our thoughts on it. Monetarily, we won't let insurance that's not dental care. Lack of desire to go to the dentist impact our advice here. 00:08:11 Speaker 2: I don't mind it, actually, I don't. Yeah, like when I go into the dentists, it's actually I think I almost view it like you getting a massage where somebody is working on me making so weird, healthier and better. You're the only person who thinks that. I think. Do you feel that way when you get it to get your cartooned up? Like I feel so good after getting my car tune decks? I'm just like, oh man, this thing is perfect, and I'm glad I did it, But in the moment, I'm like, this is painful from not terribly painful. 00:08:33 Speaker 1: My teeth are frying too. But uh, okay, let's get to Phil's question. And first the question is like, how are you getting this dental insurance policy? 00:08:40 Speaker 2: Right? 00:08:40 Speaker 1: That's true because if it's subsidized through your employer, it's likely still worth it because you're paying a fraction of what it actually costs to have that insurance. But if you're buying it as an individual, it's it's not nearly as important as you as you think. From specifically, from the financial perspective, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't go see the dentists, but it means that you're you might not need the insurance, you might not come ahead having that insurance. And so, like all insurance policies, the specifics matter. Health insurance is a no brainer for most people, and not because it allows you to get cheaper prescription drugs or you know, doctor's visits with a cope. We should do away with cope is in my estimation, I don't think it's a good part of the insurance system. But the whole reason to have medical insurance is because how you're going to be covered if something catastrophic were to happen. The annual out of pocket limit is like the best benefit you have. That's the best part of health insurance. Knowing that you're not on the hook

beyond a certain amount. Yes, you get the worst, most devastating diagnosis, a life threatening disease or injury, and you know the hospital bills could rack up, and saying guess what, I'm capped at ten K or twelve K out of pocket for my family whatever. That annual out of pocket max is your saving grace. It's not the wellnesses or checkups that allow you to come out ahead, because cash payers actually often do pretty well for themselves pricing wise. So I would say this, Phil, I would say, don't be afraid to ask your dentist office for discounts for paying in full when you get the procedure done. 00:10:03 Speaker 2: Be like old tim Yeah, never hears it. 00:10:05 Speaker 1: Ask unless you have this like massively discounted dental insurance policy through your work, which in case, like I said, it might make sense, but if you're looking at buying one on your own on the open market, it might make sense instead to deal directly with your dentist for the work you need to get done. 00:10:18 Speaker 2: Yeah. I like that direct to patient model too. And is it the concierge medical services that are starting to crop up? But yeah, I totally agree. 00:10:27 Speaker 3: Man. 00:10:27 Speaker 2: The thing that makes health insurance so crucial like that is the same thing that makes dental insurance far less necessary because most people are just using their dental insurance to lower the cost of their routine visits. Right to get a free cleaning except for your paying for the premiums you know, throughout the year. It's like a credit. You're like pre paying. It's like it's like you've joined some sort of dental club and you've all agreed to keep your teeth extra straight and white, right, something like that, which is fine, But I'm just saying there's something to be said for the British model where everyone's got crooked teeth. What's ConTroll with that? Come on? But so, yeah, if you're getting your teeth cleaned, you know your insurance it might cover the cost. Actually, there's there's basically like one hundred and eighty fifty model, right, so it's one hundred Like if you're going in for routine maintenance like just a cleaning, they typically cover one hundred percent of it. If you even have a cavity a lot of plans they only cover eighty percent of that. But if there's something even bigger, like something more catastrophic like a crown or something, they only cover fifty percent oftentimes of that procedure. So sometimes even less. 00:11:21 Speaker 1: Lot of times it's twenty And it really depends on the policy, which is why the details are moth exactly. But like I had something that where my Dennis was recommending that I get some sort of mouthguard, but it was no. The insurance company then said, and this was back when I had traditional health interants in my employer, they said, actually, this is orthodontic, and we only cover orthodontia stuff up until you're eighteen or twenty five. Everget I was like, I'm much older than that now, so you're

not going to cover it. 00:11:45 Speaker 2: It's just a part of it. Like at the same mouthguard at like the sports score like the football players. Yeah right, so, and so I literally did buy one on Amazon and I can live that. What it was, Yeah, where you like take the measurements or you take the impression in your mouth. Yeah, okay, nice but it's one of those things where you don't know sometimes how your insurance is going to classify it, or what work you need to get done and what percentage is covered at. That's why it's important to dive into the details. Yeah, the key question to ask before you opt in to go out there and maybe get dental insurance if you're so inclinent, is what your premiums are going to be, and then what the policy covers. Because if let's just say a routine cleaning it costs hundred and fifty bucks, and then your plan, let's say it costs you three hundred dollars a year in premiums, and say you're only allowed you're only able to get cleaning done like once a year or something like that. Well, for you in this specific instance, the insurance, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 00:12:32 Speaker 1: Yes, And like Phil alluded to, Matt, dental coverage usually has an annual max payout and certain procedures have ridiculously high co insurance payments, and so dental insurance is a case where ditching it and opting to self insure really can make a lot more sense. So instead of paying for a portion of the work being done. Just pay the full price of the cleaning, the cavity fill, whatever it is. The premium money you've been able to save by canceling your insurance policy, funnel that into a savings account to pay for those procedures that you need done. Plus it allows you this added flexibility being able to shop around before you actually go in to see the doctor. But again, so much of the equation comes down to your own dental needs, the price and the coverage. So it's not like we're mass recommending everyone to ditch dental insurance, but it just really depends on the individual and depends on your own dental needs. 00:13:18 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, Okay, So one interesting additional option if it's looking like you might need more significant dental work done is medical tourism, which sounds kind of crazy, but it's actually becoming more and more more popular. 00:13:31 Speaker 1: My preferred destination Antarctica. Yeah, the Polar Bears work. 00:13:34 Speaker 2: Okay, it's becoming more popular specifically because because it's becoming more affordable to go to another country to fly and pay for medical procedures, specifically dental care. 00:13:43 Speaker 1: In this case, oftentimes you're able to stay in a nice hotel on the beach kind of thing. And that's timber one way. 00:13:49 Speaker 2: Way nicer than just running an errand, and you know, like make a make a trip out of it. Sure, literally we've talked about was it with Marshall Allen. We talked about Molar City. We talked down to Mexico. Yeah, down in Mexico that people are crossing the border to get solid dental work done at a fraction of the price costa Rica. That's another top destination. But for you run the numbers because you know, even after paying for the airfare, paying for the hotel, not to mention if you're able to get it at a discount because you got points. But it might make sense to get on a plane get some dental work done abroad. And you definitely don't need dental insurance in order to do this in order to partake. It's the medical tourism. So we want you Phil to take care of this Jompers man. 00:14:30 Speaker 1: But figure a disclaimer here. Floss every day, brush it brush twice a day, maybe three times a day, like do those things you lost every day. That's the biggest kind of insurance. It's kind of like I'll get to that one stone. It's kind of like the cell phone case, like the case yourself. 00:14:42 Speaker 2: Preventative medicine is always is always the best. 00:14:45 Speaker 1: You don't need the expensive insurance coverage. If you can take a prevention is worth a pound of cure. And does that mean that your phone will never ever get a cracks screen. No, but you've done ninety percent of it for the cheapest possible price, and so that is that's the thing to do as long as you're If you're doing those main things every day and going to see it for ess often enough, I think you can ditch dental insurance. You don't need it, but run the numbers. Run the numbers, and I floss twice week, Okay, I should floss every day. 00:15:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been doing it more regularly because my daughter and I were like talking about it, UNTI. We're both kind of trying to well with kids. You want to instill the habit, but their teeth are their little mouths. But then their teeth are so far apart. They're like, why would you floss? I'm like, food gets in between your teeth and they're like, no, it doesn't. I'm like, what, show me your teeth open and I'm like, oh yeah, there's like, let me poke around with this fisher, but your mom got me. It's all it's all gappy in here. You don't have your grown up teeth yet. Yeah, but it's still get a instill some of those habits. On a related note, Kate just bought do you okay? Do y'all use string floss that you wrap around your fingers or do you use flossers? So they just like they make it so easy. They make it easy and fun. They do. 00:15:45 Speaker 1: I used to always talk a little more, but it makes it more likely that I'm gonna do it. 00:15:48 Speaker 2: You buy the bolt pack at Costco, which is what Kate did. Anyway, I'm a recent floss or convert. I'm a fan. There you go. Yeah, I'm doing it way more often because of that. 00:15:56 Speaker 1: Nice are We've got more questions to get to fill. I hope that helps. 00:15:59 Speaker 2: And talk about other body parts now yeah, yeah, well yeah, this is really going to we're going to dive down the medical rabbit hole in a big way. 00:16:04 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to talk

about life insurance in a second. And that's like you know something you need if you die, well, but what kindy you need? And can you get too much or something that's too expensive. We'll talk about that and more right after this. 00:16:25 Speaker 2: All right, man, we are back from the break, and yes we will get to that question on life insurance. But first, let's here from a listener who has just recently gotten to money Gear number five. 00:16:35 Speaker 5: Hi, Matt and Joel, this is Renee from Pennsylvania. First time, long time. I love your down to earth advice and the fact that you're not trying to scam your listeners with time shares. My husband and I work full time. We don't have children, and we are not planning to have children. Our debts include our mortgage, zero percent interest loan for our new HVAC system, and just under twenty thousand dollars in school loans. We're finally at a point in our finances where we can think about investing aka money Gear five. We are both contributing to our employee match four oh one k's and employer hsas, with plans to increase those contributions each year. We have about sixty thousand dollars in a high heeled savings account, earning four point twenty five percent, and we continue to put money in that account almost every month. I would like to start investing some of that money, but I'm not sure where to start. When I look at CD rates, they don't seem that much better than our savings account unless I'm misunderstanding the rates. I'm interested in something like a practice money market account that has a positive social impact associated with it. What do you suggest for our next move? Thanks? 00:17:43 Speaker 1: Oh, Renee. Those timeshare scams are coming. We're going to start pitching those probably tomorrow, is my guest. It's been a minute since we've talked about time shares. 00:17:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's false. I'm just joking. 00:17:53 Speaker 1: We're not going to add something we like. We'll never go down that rabbit hole. Because timeshares are the worst. People should avoid them. And it's it's very very rare that I hear someone Matt who's like, I love my time share. Most people are like, how do I get out of this about losing my shirt? 00:18:06 Speaker 2: Where? What's the little website where I can go to trade or sell? Because folks, yeah, they're tired of them. Sell it for literally pennies on the dollar because I'll pay nobody value to take over. Yes, the responsibilities, like nobody values timeshares on the secondary market, that's for sure. They're sold, not bought. That's right, Renee. But onto your question. It sounds like you've paid down a lot of debt, it sounds like you created a sizeable chunk of savings. Plus you are investing in some smart ways as well, so you're yeah, the question, you're asking what are the next steps? How can you invest some more? And we want you focused less on the like within the savings sphere, the different savings products here, and more

on those actual investment accounts that you mentioned, because while it's a spectacular thing that savers that they're not getting collaborated anymore, except for the ones specifically with the big banks, they're still getting paid the absolute least that being sevent raised rates at all. No, Yeah, ramping up your savings even more, it's not going to necessarily get you where you're looking to go. It's a good idea for short term, short term goals that you might be saving up for in quote unquote investing for, but when it comes to long term investments, you need to change. Basically your mindset shift out is that you're looking at your money because you might feel more comfortable adding to your high yel savings account. Right's socking more money into a CD or that money market fund that you mentioned. But the way that you're actually going to make bigger strides and in order to grow your wealth is by embracing the risk but also the reward that comes with investing your money. I think it's gotten more volatility that you're going to expose yourself to, but that is how you're actually going to grow. 00:19:38 Speaker 1: It's become easier to be more comfortable being a saver because rates aren't complete crap, right, They're not all the way down to the dumps like they were for a decade plus, and so now it feels like, oh cool, I can make close to five percent on savings. So maybe I'll just be happy savings and I won't think about investing as much. But the truth is, over the years, over the decades, you're losing out on meaningful additional returns by priority tizing safes. And yes, you need liquid cash, you need savings, but you don't want to save so much that you're not investing as much as you could or should. 00:20:07 Speaker 2: And so I think one of the tricks is the fact that we most folks aren't necessarily comparing their expenses today, right, So we've all experienced inflation. Yeah, and we're not necessarily some folks are, which is great. But at the end of the year, when it comes to your savings account, you get a little statement and it tells you this is how much you earned this year. And you're going to say, oh, wow, that's so much more than last year. I'm earning so much money by investing my money in a high yo savings. But what they're not looking at is the itemized breakdown of how much they spent on groceries, for instance. And if you were automatically sent that, I think that would have an impact on how it is that you view the money that you're spending and the money that you're saving, not necessarily investing, you'd be like, oh, man, I need to out earn this inflation exactly, which is the main reason to invest in the first place. Right, That inflation is steadily eating away at our money, and so we need to invest to grow that money so that you know, we're not getting stung by inflation over time, that we're able to kind of mitigate that and actually outpace it. 00:21:00 Speaker 3: Right. 00:21:00 Speaker 1: And so the thing is, I think Renee doesn't even necessarily need to open up a new account. You've got plenty of good ones already at your disposal. It sounds like, and I love that you already have plans to increase what you're putting into that four oh one K and that HSA, but it might make sense to ramp up contributions to those even sooner than maybe you thought, like we're all about liquid savings, But it's a good idea to see how many months of expenses that sixty thousand dollars you mentioned you had. How much would that cover? Like do you need that much or would forty thousand dollars suffice? Would that be enough? Like if that would be plenty to cover five or six months of expenses and your jobs feel steady, I would be funneling more of that cash into those investment accounts for the increased tax and wealth building benefits that you're. 00:21:40 Speaker 2: Going to receive. Yeah, I would say, as you're looking at the amount of money that you have to decide to make sure you have because you mentioned a zero percent loan that you've got on your HVAC, which I get it. Sometimes we're in situations where we don't have the money on hand. But it sounds like you have the money on hand, and maybe you chose to go with a zero percent HVAC loan because you're like, well, why not, you can hang on my money for longer. I just want to make sure that you have a plan to pay that off once that zero percent window closes, sure, because like, okay, so they're not really like quote unquote HVAC loans oftentimes, they're just personal loans, and personal loan rates very widely. Like it's so like anywhere from like seven percent all we up to thirty, like thirty five percent, and so they're counting on folks getting used to perhaps not paying that and then all of a sudden they roll out of that window and boom, if your credit is not so stellar, you're gonna be on that higher end of that unsecured loan and you're all of a sudden paying thirty percent on something that you didn't have a plan to pay off, and so renee. 00:22:35 Speaker 1: It's like those furniture commercials you see on TV and it's yeah, no payments, no interest until twenty thirty five, and it's like they're hoping that you're gonna forget commediately about when. 00:22:44 Speaker 2: They're gonna come calling. Yes, and then you owe a lot of money and exactly yes, But Renee, she seems organized, and I'm guessing they have a lump sum set aside that when the time comes, you're gonna blute pay that thing off. But yeah, just make sure if not, though, make sure that you do have a plan for them, and that you've got that much money set aside in addition to your emergency fund. But make sure you're taking that into account as well as student loans resuming as well, because it sounds like you've got a couple more twenty thousand in student loans that will be resuming. Yeah, So just a quick note on savings and making sure that you're not fully depleting those that you're looking out in the full picture. Yeah, And I

guess I mentioned that Renee doesn't in all likelihood need another account. She doesn't need to add anything else to the mix. I think if she's just kind of getting closer to maxing out both those two accounts, so she's currently investing in she's a lot of the way there right, Like she is doing a lot more than most people can or do. But there is one other thing that's probably worth mentioning mentioning when it comes to crushing your retirement account goals more fully, and that is adding one additional account account to the mix and RENEE you and your husband you could likely consider and you probably should consider the roth IRA's. That would be like the trifecta essentially all that with the other two HSA four oh one k roth ira doing all above funneling and the maxing out the wroth IRA and the HSA those two together would be incredible and then getting at least a match on the four one K and then any additional dollar I would say should go into the four to one K. After those two are maxed. 00:24:14 Speaker 1: You can contribute up to sixty five hundred dollars annually each into those wroth iras. And if you're doing all the above, that would be a lot of investing, right which you might not be able to do all the above, or at least be able to do all the above this year, But even just opening the wrath investing a little, that would be a great start. And so we would say, yeah, again, saving money is important, but savings alone aren't going to fund retirement, So make sure you're not leaning too hard in that direction. Just because rates are higher and it feels a little more comfortable. It doesn't mean that you should rest on your laurels and just kind of allow your savings to accumulate and accumulate unless you have specific short term to medium term goals that you're saving for. If these are long term goals, we want you putting more aside in those retirement accounts. 00:24:55 Speaker 4: That's right. 00:24:56 Speaker 2: Yeah. And you asked specifically too, about putting your money with maybe a money mark fund that has like a social bent or something like that, and we would caution you against going with a bank or somebody that's paying you less than what it is that you can get competitively on the open market. You specifically asked about practice and they're actually at you know, we look them up. They're paying four point eight percent, which is pretty dang good that they're paying that out to customers, but also have a social benefit that they're providing providing the community, right, Yeah, and so and that's a question whether or not that is good. It's more of a question about whether or not she should be doing more savings and less investing exactly exactly. But as far as those medium term goals, if you are looking to move your money into to something like that, that's totally fine, I just want to see you necessarily getting like two to three percent at the expense of that they happen to be doing some quote unquote good when you don't, you may not necessarily know what good it is that they're providing for a community. It makes me think of like ESG Investing and even SMP like the rating agency, Like they just dropped ESG like the rating because it's like, what is does that even mean anymore to different companies because so many eye of the beholders and it's gotten pretty murky well on, and we've been covering that for a while in the show. It's not that we're against doing good or caring about this. Vironment do it separately from your savings and investing, and so for instance, like if they were only paying out like two percent, I would say, well, shoot, get with the high held savings us paying you five percent, but then take a portion of your money and donate it directly to the different causes that you believe and just keep them separate, specifically the good that you're able to provide the community in the world. It just helps things to remain a little more clear. Proper alignment, you know, yeah, exactly, all right, let's hear from our listener who has that less than ideal insurance product. 00:26:43 Speaker 6: Hey, Matt and Joel, this is Robin from northern Colorado. I have a question for you guys regarding whole life insurance. Back in the nineties, I was in the Marine Corps and started investing with an investment bank that caters largely to the military in general. It's a good company. However, I have learned that perhaps they did not always have my best interest in mind with regard to their near insistence on getting whole life insurance, which I ended up doing. My three children also have their own whole life insurance policies. In recent years, mainly from the good advice from my fiancee and also from reading some articles on your website. I am now convinced that whole life insurance is not all it's cracked up to be, and I probably would do better with a term life insurance policy for the remaining years that my children are dependent upon my income. My question is what should I do. I wonder what the tax or any other financial implications might be if I close out the policy. Should I invest what remaining cash I get back into some other investment vehicle? Or maybe put it towards a term policy instead. I appreciate your thoughts on this rather confusing financial matter that has bothered me for quite some time now. If you guys ever find yourself in the northern Colorado area, I'd love to recommend some of my favors breweries, and if the timing is right, you might even get to see some of my artwork on display at these breweries. I have a super cool side hustle painting art and recycle wood that features the Colorado flag. 00:28:11 Speaker 2: Thanks guys, Robin. 00:28:13 Speaker 1: First off, we dig the side hustle, the small business that you're starting right, And it's true that there are some good companies out there, by the way, that don't do a good job advising their customers as they're making big financial decisions. Even companies that we like don't

necessarily do the due diligence, especially some of these financial companies, that they should do with their customers. My mom was thinking about rolling over a Wroth four oh one k recently into a roth Ira with Fidelity, and they were like, cool, let's do it. And they didn't really ask her any important questions, and they didn't notify her about the five year rule. It doesn't mean that Fidelity's not a great company with low fees, But man, that was a little disconcerting to hear that they didn't like ask those questions of her, right. 00:28:50 Speaker 2: Or she didn't get an email that said this is what you should expect. Yeah, got it? 00:28:54 Speaker 1: Yes, So once again, I think this reveals the need for more basic financial education in schools and maybe less complexity in the rules overall. But it's something that impacts all of us every single day of our lives, this money thing, right, We're dealing with it all the time, yet most of us we graduate learning nothing about it. And the truth is a lot of financial mistakes can be mitigated. But man, wouldn't it be nice if we work to prevent more of these financial issues from the get go. I think we owe it to generations of future Americans to help teach them what it looks like to handle personal finance as well, especially something like a life insurance policy that you're stuck with paying for decades down the road. You might not realize until a decade is gone and you're like, Wow, that's a decade of returns on money I could have instead invested that. 00:29:40 Speaker 2: I lost out on that's true. Yeah, And so the whole life policies that she has specifically on our kids, Robin, those are the absolute most unnecessary that you have. They're all kind of unnecessary. Not life insurance in Geril but whole life specifically. But the entire purpose of life insurance is to cover loss of income in the case of or untimely death. And so unless your kids, I think you said you have three of them, unless they earn you money, right, like if they're child stars like Mcallai Culkin, right, they're probably not contributing to the family finances. On More than likely they're actually a drain on them. They cost you money. Not to say that kids aren't worth it, but they're not bringing in. They're not carrying their own weight right when it comes to the financial situation. That's what I'm saying is that there is not even a need to have term life insurance on them at all, which is our absolute whole life on them. But any sort of life insurany life insurance, exactly, it's a cheaper kind zero life insurance that is the right amount for each one of your kiddos. If are you, I'd be getting rid of those policies as soon as possible. 00:30:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, and some people will say, oh, but we need a policy on our kids to cover potential burial costs. That's a case for self insurance, not a case for life insurance, because that is not the purpose of life insurance. But yeah, so cancel those things to get those premiums back in your life every single month. And then when it comes to the whole life policy that you and your fiance you're soon to be husband have, well, whether or not you're gonna want to ditch those that depends on how long you've had those policies in place and what changes there may have been to your health in the meantime, Because on average, the premiums are ten x sometimes more than what a term policy would be. So in the case of term you might pay eighteen dollars a month, Well, for your whole life it might be two hundred dollars a month, But your age and your health factor into those premiums and what you're actually paying. So that's a pretty good rule of thumb, I would say when it comes to thinking about how much cheaper term insurance is likely to be. But like, let's say, for instance, you've been diagnosed to something that would impact rates on a future policy. You might be better off keeping your whole life policy intact because rates on that new policy, even a term one which comes with on average ten x less, will be affected. And again, if you've got this policy fifteen years ago, well, rates are going to go up just by factor of just by consequence of your age, So that's important to take into considerable. 00:31:57 Speaker 2: Well, so the flip side of the coin would be if you're actually in better health. For instance, it makes me think if you, like, say you smoked back when you got that policy, you could actually save drastically more money now by getting a new policy in addition to the fact that you're going to pay you know, ten times less for a term policy over that whole life policy. But also it's not only how long that you've had the policy, right, but it's also how much longer you're going to need that policy moving forward, how much longer that you'll have folks who are dependent on your income. So, for instance, let's say your kids are let's say your youngest kid is twelve years old, Well, that means there might be only like six years where they are solely dependent on your income, at which point you could potentially cancel if you wanted to, Like, you could potentially be without life insurance altogether because you don't have anybody who is dependent on that income. If you're your partner, maybe they're not necessarily in a position where they need your income. Yeah, it might be certainly the icing on top. Certainly life would look a whole lot different where you did not be there, But it may not be necessary. 00:32:55 Speaker 1: Especially if your savings and your investments are robust. You might say, oh, in six years time, based on the out we're talking a size often, sure, baby, we don't need that policy anymore. 00:33:03 Speaker 2: Exactly. Kind of goes back to the whole dental thing, which is why we recommend term in the first place, because usually covering a specific period of time where kids are under the roof, for where your spouse is going to need that, and hopefully hopefully over that twenty or

thirty year term policy you have built financial independence, beef up your nest day in the meantime to be set. Yes, and then you don't need. 00:33:21 Speaker 1: The life insurance anymore because it covered the period of time where you weren't financially in and then now you are. 00:33:27 Speaker 2: The designated period of time exactly and you also so you mentioned the tax implications as well. So if you've surrendered the policy, you actually you only have to pay taxes on anything that you receive that is over what you paid. So the dollar amount of the cash basis, so what it is that you paid into it, you will receive that back tax free, no income tax on that amount of money. I think it's also important to mention Matt like term life yes, better, But we were mentioning all these little caveats because yeah, it depends on how long you've had that. There's a lot of different factors that you plan to have it taken into account. 00:33:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, health stuff, and what the actual cost you would be paying for term life policy. I think it's probably worth getting quotes on term life policies for yourself. And you're soon to be, you know, in your fiance to see, okay, well how much could we actually say and are we ensurable at a decent rate? But I would also say this, there's the devil's in the details. And there's a nonprofit called the Consumer Federation of America that will review your policy for a reasonable one hundred and fifty dollars fee. And since this is such a big decision, and there are a lot of factors that go into whether or not you opt to keep her ditchit. It's probably worth getting insight from a pro. So we'll put a link in the show notes to this website, the Consumer Federation of America. The service they offer is it just run by this one guy. It's this one guy. Okay, this one guy whose name is James Hunts, and he has literally been reviewing life insurance policies since I was born in nineteen eighty four. That's thirty nine years of experience. And he does it now. 00:34:47 Speaker 2: Talk about laser focus, right right. This guy does one thing and he does it really well exactly. So yeah, he literally says on the website, I've basically seen everything. Nothing you send my way is going to shock well. And before that, he used to be the tax commissioner for Vermont and so he was in the industry before. This guy is a pro. He's been doing this specifically for a long time. I honestly, I really like the simplicity of his model, like this business. 00:35:09 Speaker 1: And that he's set up public servant basically in a lot of ways, like he's doing this as a way to help people and just cover costs and so, but I. 00:35:14 Speaker 2: Think he probably makes decent money doing it too. Maybe he does, Okay, I don't know, I've heard of anybody else doing this, But he'll talk it through with you too after he runs the numbers. I just think it's one of those things where it's like, well, hey, if you've had this policy for in that borderline ten to fifteen year period and you're not sure where to go, and I think it's borderline, running it through with him and having him crunch the numbers will help provide some peace of mind knowing that then you're making the right decision on whether to keep it or cancel it. But Robin, hopefully that's helpful again if we can all go back like almost everyone would get term life and not whole life policies. And I'm sorry, I'm sorry that someone even at a decent company, led you astray in the beginning, because I'm sure, yeah, that of course has cost you over the years. But while that's a bummer, you can still make hopefully a smart move here in the here and now. Right, But Matt, let's get too a couple more questions, including a frugal or cheap we'll talk about one listener going to the County Fair, whether he made a wise decision or not. We'll get to that and more right after this. All right, we are back and we will get to that frugal or cheap County Fair edition. But before that, let's hear from a listener who is going to be getting married soon. 00:36:26 Speaker 4: Hi there, my name is Cassie and I'm from British Columbia. I'm also getting married soon. So I was wondering what the best way to manage finances together slash blend our money. I've heard that it's one of the most difficult things in marriage, and so what do you guys suggest from your experiences, like what credit cards or budgeting? Will also be in a university during this time, so if you have any extra advice. 00:36:46 Speaker 7: Please let me know. 00:36:46 Speaker 1: Thank you, Matt. Cassie is north of the border. We have a nice contingent of international listeners. 00:36:52 Speaker 2: We some number of folks up there in Canada. Yeah, and I know that there's a lot of advice we offer, hopefully on the show that is applicable to people that fans orders living on shore, Ye. 00:37:00 Speaker 1: Live in Canada, live in you know whatever. There's a lot of people in Europe as well. 00:37:03 Speaker 2: But there's certain principles that hold no matter what the actual products investment accounts, that you can invest with it even if you don't care about the roth Hira income contribution limits where I just keep over the last one where Yeah. 00:37:15 Speaker 1: Now, I guess we have talked about loonies. Not that's what they're called. Yeah, I think they're actually Canadian dollars, but loonies and tuonies. That's like the common vernaxt right one dollar two dollar coin. Right, Yeah, but I've never again, I've never been. But all right, question for you, do you think that combining finances is the most difficult thing in marriage? 00:37:33 Speaker 2: I think it can be, right, It's always it's like it's either money, it's how many kids you're going to have? It is what is your relationship going to look like with your in laws? Like those are all the they're like snares and waiting, like they could all potentially be topics that lead to the worst arguments or fights that

you have, but they don't have to be, and I don't think they're going to be when it comes to Cassie because I love for her that she's being proactive. Yeah, and I love that Cassie, I feel like you're the type A I don't know, you remind me of me a little bit because this is something I was worried about before I got married. We were super intentional and made sure that we sat down because we had premieral counseling before we got married, and we talked through some really important life stuff. We talked about faith stuff, we talked about we even talked about kids. Guess what we didn't talk about at all? Money? And I was just like, wait a minute, I feel like there's a big sort of sector here that that just went untouched. Again, it's because of that I had to be a little little proactive. 00:38:26 Speaker 1: Amazing that gets left out of a lot of those combos when it's such an important topic for us all to be discussing. But I agree with you, Matt. I think the fact that Cassie is asking the question that she is being intentional on the front end. She's so ahead of the game already. You're you're setting yourself up for success because you. 00:38:39 Speaker 2: Care exactly yeah, yeah, you know. And money finances, it's just one of the like the mini areas that you're combining in, all of which require a lot of communication, you know, like when you're single, you used to make that decision and you just keep on moving with your day, like how it is you're gonna spend money, what is it that you're gonna do? But now there's someone else's feelings to take into account to take into consideration. And that's true whether we're talking about spending and saving or whether we're just talking about going out with your friends on a Friday night. 00:39:06 Speaker 1: But I thought we were going to Netflix and chill together, baby was like, and then there's hurt feelings. 00:39:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what I'm getting at is regular, healthy communication, Like that's going to be key to all of these discussions, whether you're talking about money, whether you're talking about friendships, whether you're talking about kids and in law is all. 00:39:24 Speaker 1: That And I think that means humility and asking for forgiveness. I've realized this with my kids too, Matt. The more I'm able to apologize for things that I've done, the ways I've hurt them, or ways that I was rude or short or something like that, that I feel like that is building a level of trust in our relationship, even when I've done something that hurt them or that wasn't that was short sighted. 00:39:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so Cassie sounds like a humble lady. Yeah, but you got to just got this on lot. Both of those are really important in that relationship dynamic. 00:39:50 Speaker 3: Right. 00:39:50 Speaker 1: The more you can kind of incorporate those two things, the more firm foundation foundation you're going to build. And I would say our advice for most folks who get married is to combine finances. That advice is somewhat malleable, right, It might change a little for a duo who's getting married later in life. Let's say you're getting married in your forties or fifties or whatever, or you've had a previous relationship that failed. I mean, those that can impact our advice here. But studies show that couples who combine finances are happier and they also tend to build more wealth with that approach. And so it doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't have some level of autonomy and ability to spend how you want. You should still remain a distinct individual inside of that relationship, and we do want you to create room for that in your budget. It's just important to be able to spend without getting approval for everything. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you should not be combining most things, because I think it's going to help accentuate your goals and your ability to achieve them, and it's going to put you guys on the same page. It's actually going to force some of those discussions that are necessary to make the progress you're going to want to make with your money. 00:40:52 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so you said goals, Like, some advice I would have is just to dream together, right, like, come up with shared goals together, because I think that common division is to ensure that you both feel like that you're on the same team, which is exactly why those couples in that research. We can link to the article as well that talked about that research about happier and wealthier couples who have combined their money. But I think that's why they tend to be better at building wealth. Yeah, there is serious legit power in two people who are going hard after the same thing. And which also makes me think about prenups by the way, because there's going to be some folks who tell you to get a prenup. I am personally not a fan. I feel like by someone somebody getting those, there is like a lack of trust that is implicit with that, right, and it almost becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy when it's just like, oh, I trust you with everything except for this, you know, my money, the thing that allows me to do everything else that I'm able to do in life with. 00:41:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like, hey, there's a distinct chance this doesn't work out, and you are exoing seeds. 00:41:52 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, it's self fulfilling. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. You're some of those seeds. I think with the inherent act of creating a prenups a negative for your money, which I don't like. And I know that there are plenty of couples who are going to say, oh, I've got a perfectly happy relationship, but I would venture to guess that they would be even happier, that they would be even wealthier, that that relationship would last even longer if they didn't have a prenup. 00:42:14 Speaker 1: Well, there are a lot of couples that where they're that relationship fell apart in the prenup process, right, Like they really just that one step of trying

to hammer out a bunch of those things. And maybe you would just say, well, that revealed kind of the underlying dysfunction to begin with, maybe, but I do think like. 00:42:29 Speaker 2: A crash course of its better to identify these cracks now, right, Like identify this fact the potential cracks in the foundation now uh. And as to whether or not these are things that can be mended or I think my advice would be if you if you think that a prenup is necessary, then why I guess it makes me question why marriage is the ultimate goal then, because there are other ways to have a long term, committed partner partnership. Valid question. 00:42:54 Speaker 1: But if you're saying listen, no, no, I'm going to commit to you for the rest of my life. We are going to get married in the eyes of the state and my church or whatever, then at why at the same time would you have to have this backup? 00:43:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I feel like we could potentially go down this path. But like it raises the question of like marriage in general, and I think that there are a lot of folks who are entering into marriages and relationships like that that aren't taking those seriously enough. 00:43:22 Speaker 4: Ye. 00:43:22 Speaker 2: Like, I feel like that that's what it's a more, it's a larger indicator of But I feel like we're getting a little too heavy here, So I'm gonna like back out a little bit. 00:43:29 Speaker 1: You just have to be careful if you're saying I'm going to commit to all these things and then you say, but I'm not committing to combining my finances, I think it just raises some deeper questions totally. Cassie also mentioned credit cards and budgeting, and so yeah, a couple suggestions on that front. Use credit cards responsibly, of course, but which ones that's really up to you. I mean, you can choose to optimize cash back or travel rewards, and I don't know if you're interested in traveling for free, that is definitely one one route to go. We have content related to that in previous podcast episodes and up on the website. But really, how complex do you want to get and what are you shooting for? That should inform which credit cards you opt to get. For budgeting, that's also personal, right If you prefer digital we love wine ab you need a budget that rocks. But there are lots of ways to skin that cat too, So Matt does the old school Excel spreadsheet. I mean, really, whatever floats your boat on that front and whatever allows you really like, I think whatever aids communication for the two of you and makes it easy for both to kind of get in on the money things so you can have good conversations. I would prioritize that. 00:44:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, which makes me think that Cassie should prioritize simplicity because you're saying like it depends on how complex you want to go with it. That kind of determines maybe what card you get, Cassie. I mean, if I I'm looking, I'm thinking back to when I first started out, and I think this simpler the better,

especially if your partner may not be one hundred percent on board all in, because I'm guessing, like again, you kind of sound like the type a personality, and I think if you put together this really elaborate, complex plan, and even if you have a special fun date night where you make you know, it's like, oh, we're going to talk about this and it's gonna be great, and you have a bottle line or craft beer or whatever, even still I think your partner could have there might be a sense of resentment where he's just like, man, I feel like she's trying to control. 00:45:12 Speaker 1: How it is like we're going to live our lives, or how. 00:45:15 Speaker 2: It is I can spend or when am I going to give my input statements like that, And even on your part, if he doesn't stick with a plan, you might have like a sense of resentment a little bit because you're like, man, I work so hard to put together this awesome plan that's going to allow us to achieve our goals, but it's not really panning out. And so I think for now at least keeping being simple and then kind of slowly taking some baby steps and upping the level of complexity, especially early on while you're in school you've got other stuff going on. 00:45:40 Speaker 1: I feel like what you're pointing to here is that the process matters more than the results. And that's something Emily says a whole lot at my wife, who is studying to become a therapist. I think she's spot on. It's like how you tackle this together, even the forming of the methodology, and like how you communicate about it and the tools you use, and how you incorporate each other into that place process that matters, and that shows a lot of love and respect if you're able to make sure they feel comfortable with the process too, not just saying like, all right, I figured it out, here's what we're doing. 00:46:11 Speaker 2: And so I'm making that other party feel seen and heard as they're able to kind of come to the table with their own ideas as well. 00:46:18 Speaker 1: So yeah, yep, casey, best of luck. We can't wait to be invited to the wedding. It'll be our first stop in Canada, so I might go, hey, don't invite me a let you're serious road trip. 00:46:28 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 00:46:29 Speaker 1: Matt will even perform the ceremony. All right, let's get to our last question for this episode. This is a frugaler cheap, a fun one from a listener in Indiana. 00:46:37 Speaker 7: Hey man, Angel, my name is Bobby from Bellpraizo, Indiana. I have a frugaler cheap situation for you. So I took my family to the fair the other day, the County Fair, and it was a lot of fun, but a little bit of prep work. I was able to save about forty bucks on lemonade. I'll tell you how. So I had some of those souvenir sand castle cups from previous years. So before we left, we stopped at all the gots lemonade, got a nice and cold and I washed those old cups out real good. We went to the fair, had a nice picnic, and then as we're walking around, we're thirsty. I just busted out my ald lemonade from the cooler, filled up our sand castle cups, and were sipping lemonade in style. Except our three jugs cost me about six dollars instead of forty five. So my question is is that frugal or is that you Bobby? 00:47:24 Speaker 2: Love it, buddy, sipping and style. Okay, what is the sand castle cup? I don't know. I have a specimply related to that county fair for the Indiana County whatever state fair. I love it. Okay, So this actually I was getting, by the way when I was like hearing his question, getting like Charlotte's web vibes to make me think of Wilberg going to the what is it the Prettiest Pig Contest whatever it is show. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, oh man, that's such a good book. It's a nice throwback. Okay. So Bobby's situation here, it kind of reminds me I shared maybe not too long ago, about when we went to six Flags we got a refillable you had unlimited refills on a single cup, and you know we're taking all six of us in. I'm like, man, these cups are twenty five bucks. So I don't know, it reminded me of that because there's a part of me that was like, oh, this feels a little bit cheap. And specifically, like I guess to Bobby's question here is I wonder how his family felt, right, because our kids were young enough that they didn't. I don't think they felt the stigma of us all sharing the same cup. You know, like there's other families walking around and they each person has their own cup. There's other groups, each one of them has their own cup. Here's our family walking around waiting in line for the rides. We got one cup and we're all like passing it back and forth. But I think they're young enough that they're just like, oh whatever, we're just this is just how we're doing it. Yeah, And so I think that's a consideration, Bobby, is your family family members, were they on board as well? As you're busting out the jugs of all the lemonade are lapping their foreheads, They're like, oh damn, are there people around you giving you the eye? And all of a sudden, they feel they're just embarrassed at the fact that this is a step that y'all are taking in order to save money. Because that's way back when when we did the original Frugal or Cheap episode where we talked to spend a whole episode talking about what it means to be frugal, what it means to be cheap. Imposing your frugalness on somebody else without necessarily giving them a choice is might be a form of cheapness. And in this way, but. 00:49:14 Speaker 1: You also might say, hey, listen, even if we don't do this, like we're not buying a fourteen dollars leimonade or whatever it is at the count of care, like that's not our budget. 00:49:22 Speaker 2: There's always trade offs, right, And so I welcome that conversation, right, the ability because if your kids are like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed, Well, that's a learning opportunity. That's that's an ability for you to for them to learn the value of money and to even get them on board a

little bit and say, hey, we might save a ton of money here, and hey, you're gonna be on the receiving end of this because of this, each one of us is going to be able to get an extra ice cream snack. Oh, we'll be able to go do this ride when before we weren't able to. And I think that's the important lesson and moving forward. If they're like, nah, I really want to get this year's sand Castle Cup, And what if changed the cup? The cup it's tied eye this year, dad, and those are all green or something like that. It's like, oh man, we're the only ones with the green sand Castle Cup. There are all these small things that take into account, and I think different folks are going to make different decisions. But it's all sort of like you're saying, like the Emily's counseling thing, it's it's all the process is so important in hearing your kids and your spouse, and I don't know, just you got to take all that into account as you're trying to make the best decision not only for your money, but for your family and the culture and everyone around you too. 00:50:27 Speaker 1: So one other thing that I think could make this land in squarely in the cheap category instead of frugal is if the money that you spend on those lemonades and the special sand Castle cups goes to like a community organization or a nonprofit proceeds go to charity. Yeah, and then if you're like being super super cheap with that, then that that feels that's just cheap instead of frugal total totally. It makes me think of like Emily and I we took the kids to this mini pony petting thing which it was all about a fundraiser for ponies and pastries and animal rescue organizations. 00:50:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. 00:50:58 Speaker 1: And so they they were selling pace trees there and there was a whole pie that someone had made from scratch. It looked delicious. They were selling it nice and like they had cookies on the table too. There were two or three bucks. But then this pie. I was like, hey, how much for the pie? There was no dollars tign attached to it. He was like, oh, do we take like five bucks? And I was like, no way, I'm not paying you five. I'm paying you a lot more than that because this is a nonprofit man, and like, I want to help them. Came here distinctly to help support it, and so so you talked them up. Yes, I was like, I'm giving you twenty five bucks for this pile. 00:51:27 Speaker 2: Oh yes, because look at you, who are you rich steady fat sacks? Who are you being cheap towards night. Yeah, and if it's a nonprofit or community fundraiser, I would say, I'm going to buy those those cups with gusto because I want to support what's going on here. It's a badge of honor that you're paying that much. It's one thing if you're doing it with that in mind. It's a completely different thing if you are just partaking in mindless consumption. And that's I guess the sort of the angle I was coming at it with is if everyone's doing it, and because everyone's doing it, you feel that

you have to do it and it's not even a question that gets raised whether or not we UH used our cups from last year. That's what I'm pushing back on, and I think that's the lesson that you can that you're able to share with your kids. But it makes me, oh, it makes me think of y'all went to Disney and y'all came back with some bucket. 00:52:14 Speaker 1: What's the bucket thing? It's like the popcorn bucket. Popcorn bucket, you pay like thirteen bucks, but then you get refills for two dollars and twenty five cents every time. 00:52:20 Speaker 2: And you guys loaned us the bucket and we're going to use it when we go down there next month. I think that's frugal, right, I think that's frugal, totally frugal. So yeah, but you're asking the question, which is good just say, hey, who am I? Who am I harming? Am I having the right conversations with the right people in order to pull this off? 00:52:35 Speaker 1: And yeah, hopefully that'll help you think about whether it's frugal or cheap in your case, it's kind of hard not knowing all the details. And again this is like, uh, somewhat silly the frugaler cheap sometimes, right, But it's also I think it brings to light something that is something that we're all faced with every day every week in our own lives, like am I being cheaper? 00:52:51 Speaker 2: Am I being frugal? 00:52:52 Speaker 1: Especially as you're trying to save money, You're trying to cut back so that you can save and invest more so you can live the life you want. Sometimes you're going to come to a junction point. You've got to figure out am I frugal or am I cheap? And which path am I going to go? And sometimes yeah, even if it is supporting a community or nonprofit organization, you might say I'm not there right now. Yeah, and so I have to just avoid it altogether. But it's clearly a fork in the road that all of us come to on our financial journey a different points, that's right. 00:53:19 Speaker 2: And either way, Bobby's being frugal by being a patron of Aldi, Like, there's no way that you're not gonna be able to save boatloads of cash. Literally when we switch over to all the like years ago, we were able to slash our grocery budget by thirty percent. Huge win there, Bobby. And if you haven't given Aldi a shot, and there happens to be one near you, definitely give it a go. You're missing out, Joel. Let's go ahead. Get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This is a Angel of Darkness. This is a beer by Wicked Weed Brewing. What were your thoughts? 00:53:51 Speaker 1: So this one had red wine vibes in my estimation, Yeah, but it was like a tart red wine with a bunch of fruit in there. So I'm kind I'm not definitely not into wine, I'll say that, but I am trying out some more Kirkland signature wines on occasion, like four Paints once a month a twelve or thirteen dollars bottle of Kirkland signature wine. We've moved beyond the box wine finally as we near our forties, but this still craft beer is my favorite. I prefer craft beer, and I love Kraft beer that has wine ish kind of qualities, and so this one fits that fits that note. And it's a good sour lots of good fruit coming through. 00:54:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, barrel aged American sour ale with boys and berries, blackberries, raspberries, and cherries as well. I was gonna say it almost had like it had a lot of berry fruity tartness going on, but it almost had like this leatheriness that I think came from it aging in oak. Do you ever drink craymerry juice? I have? You know, there's like the a minute you kind of have like this feeling on your tongue, Like it leaves like a leathery feeling. Yeah, that's what I get with this. I see it kind of has like this in the texture or the feeling that it leaves in your mouth from the darkness translates into fl a little bit. And so even though this is a tart cherry, it makes me think of like dark wood and weathered leather kind of you know, like it makes me think of like their frontier or like a well appointed library. Flavors that would accompany that, like a cigar smoking room where yeah, yeah, that's there's like a richness that you need to be in anything like this, a dark, moody room with mahogany and enjoy this beer. Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, yeah that's what I was thinking, well while we're drinking this one. But yeah, Angel of Darkness by Wicked. We we've had tons of beers by them, all right. 00:55:30 Speaker 1: Let's gonna do it for this episode though, Bud. Yeah, we'll have show notes and links to some of the things we mentioned up on the website at how some money dot Com. You can always find out there. You can always find our credit card tool. If you're looking for a new credit card tool, looking for the one that's best for you, you can find that up and how the Money dot Com up in the right hand corner clip on credit card tool. But Matt until next time, Best turns out Messed Friends out 00:56:00 Speaker 2: The wool