ABOUT THIS EPISODE

During the dot com boom of the late 1990s, Jimmy Wales was running an internet search company. That's when he began to experiment with the idea of an online encyclopedia. In 2001, Wales launched Wikipedia, a website where thousands of community members could contribute, edit, and monitor content on just about anything. Today, the non-profit has stayed true to its open source roots and is the fifth most visited website in the world. PLUS in our postscript "How You Built That," how Florence Wetterwald created Blabla dolls – eco-friendly knitted dolls made in Peru.
English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

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00:00:24what was Leon was the first Wikipedia entry the earliest anyone has found was an article on the letter to first person to say Africa is a continent and hit save and well it's not very good but it's not wrong and it start
00:00:50from NPR how I built this show about innovators entrepreneurs idealists and the stories behind the movements they built
00:01:04I'm guy Rising on Today Show the story of had Cheney well started an online encyclopedia as a side project and watched it grow into one of the pillars of the internet
00:01:23okay I'm going to read you the list of the top five most viewed websites in the world so number one of course is Google and then comes YouTube and then Facebook and then why do which is China's biggest search engine and finally coming in at number 5 Wikipedia so imagine for a moment that you are the founder of one of these big websites how much are you worth Forbes annual list and. We found Larry Page founder of Google sits 50 billion dollar Mark Zuckerberg edges am out with about 70 billion
00:02:03each of the founders of Baidu are worth around 15 billion and the founders of YouTube walked away with half a billion each when they sold to Google back in 2006 and the founder of Wikipedia Jimmy Wales V most visited website in the world his personal Fortune is estimated to be not much more than 1 million dollars he is quite possibly the least Rich internet Titan in the world but I like a lot of famous Founders are entrepreneurs need to live on for centuries because he is in some ways like a modern-day Johannes Gutenberg and just like Gutenberg Press made it possible to spread knowledge Village or town Wikipedia made it possible for every single person on Earth with an internet connection to gain access to probably leave biggest collection of knowledge ever assembled
00:03:02like a lot of the entrepreneurs we going to be on the show Jimmy Wales story starts with influential people and important events that happened pretty early in life he grew up in Huntsville Alabama where does Uncle owns a shop that sold early personal computers and his two big Hobbies word tinkering with computers and reading reading just about anything he found interesting including spent a lot of time reading the cyclopedia you know you hear about something and you want to learn more and you go to the encyclopedia you find the article and read that and yeah it was it was a beloved thing in our house that we had the encyclopedia leave it all use it did you buy in the store or did somebody like come to your house and so there was already came to the house when I was a baby as the family Legend goes that somebody came to the house and sold it to my mother every year they would send out an annual update yeah for somebody else
00:04:02the moon was updated when someone landed on the moon and so they they were all these stickers and you would take the sticker out and you would go to look up him Moon and you would find the old article on the moon and you put in the sticker saying there's an update my mom and I would do that every year when the stickers came in my first editing in encyclopedia
00:04:21Jimmy eventually went to college in his home state of Alabama and he was really good at complex mathematics so good in fact that he went on to do a PhD in finance but around 1992 Jimmy decided that I couldn't hear really wasn't the place for him so he left to take a job as an options Trader in Chicago what I was doing is really just trading like buying and selling everyday Arbitrage there's a lot of mathematical modeling it relate to the prices of different things to each other to look for opportunities to find imperfections in in the market and pricing so while you were in Chicago and the early 90s this was also around the time of the internet search to become something the ordinary people using Netscape comes out and the other people like browsing the internet did you get into yeah completely yeah I was I was really so even when I was before I came to Chicago I was really getting into the internet so what I was doing I had no life I was I just traded in the day in
00:05:21we go home at night and I was working on my own web browser you are making your own web browser like on the side like in your apartment we just like sort of a self-taught yeah I mean in grad school obviously I'm doing very quantitative data analysis things like that I learn to program I was a bad programmer but I can cook I just remember very clearly the day that Netscape went public and was worth as I recall 4.3 billion dollars on the first day of training and I had to type in commands for a few years time that the internet was going to be really big and really important and really tough fundamental change the world and this was the the moment when I felt like okay look the market is validating that like other people are saying that people are really investing money here and so it was a bit of Chicago
00:06:21and I moved to San Diego and that was when I really decided you know I'm just going to I'm going to focus full-time on my internet ideas and projects
00:06:30what's Jimmy settle down in San Diego he founded a small internet search company called Bahamas and because this was the late 1990s during the.com boom company for paying top rated advertise on these new things called websites it's over the next few years those at dollars made it possible for Jimmy to pyro small staff of programmers and they have the money to just experiment Z idea was really at that time this is pre Google remember the best web directory around was Yahoo and Yahoo hired I don't know hundreds of people to go around index manually by hand index topics and categories on the web and then other people can help out and if you could get thousands of people involved it could be really bigger than the one yeah he's doing that was really the thought so we allowed people to come in and build an index to any topic that they were interested in we called it a web ring
00:07:30number one of the first community members came in and build a web meeting about Jupiter and so they had a few blogs and I remember my business partner at the time was talking about building what today I was his idea was sounded a lot like Facebook but it was really more about people reconnecting with people from their schools and universities it was a classmates.com kind of idea but I'm keep in mind that this was also where we start a new pedia the predecessor to Wikipedia about that because why you're at bomas this thing knew. Rose grows out of the right one what was it you know as I said at that promise we were always experimenting we were thinking of new ideas and new pawsibilities new things to do
00:08:25and I was looking at the model of Open Source software seeing that that worked I was also looking at you know at bombers we had community members who were building indexes to content they were interested in so the idea of new pedia what's the basically replicate that disable let's build an encyclopedia and have volunteers contribute to it and I just thought you know this this seems like a low hanging fruit actually I remember I was in a quite a panic when I had the idea to hurry up and get started because I thought it was so obvious so when I started a new pedia I really thought that other competitors were going to be out there but after 2 years ago still no one really competing with us because it may be wasn't as obvious as I thought I understand Wiki the concept of a website anyone can add it and also we had seven stage review process to get anything published
00:09:25how to work you would you to write an article for new pedia and then it went through like seven stages before we published the article to prove your qualifications to write it we had some stuff so Larry Sanger was the editor-in-chief and he would it was a whole process whereby you could apply to submit something and so forth and then they would be copy-editing reviewers much like academic review where you send it out to experts in the field for review and actually one of the things that was really a lightbulb moment to my mind was one of the first few articles that got through that process and was published we had it up on the web for just a few days I would say and suddenly it came to our attention somebody said hey this is really plagiarized oh and we checked into it as like ouch so like somebody just copy the encyclopedia
00:10:25it was just it was not good and I realized even with all this process we built up to prevent this it was still plagiarism and that was a huge problem if I'm the only thing that revealed it was more people reading it and people singing and saying hey this is actually a problem and that there's an old saying in the open source software world that given enough eyeballs all bugs are shallow and what that means is oftentimes when your programming there's some kind of bug in your coat and you just cannot find it and if you get another set of eyes on it or 10 sets of eyes it becomes very obvious somebody was spotted it so that concept does actually apply and lots of areas of life did you get a lot of people looking something people can say hey there's actually a problem here that maybe nobody else noticed and then sometimes after it's been pointed out you said oh yeah it was kind of obvious so I read that within a year after launching eupedia you the site produced a sum total of 21 articles which doesn't sound like it was
00:11:25turning and burning. It was not good and in fact as we proceeded through that year and I was very frustrated with the slow pace of progress I decided to write an entry myself but I just need to go through this process myself to see what's wrong with it or how can we improve it until I decided to write an article about Robert Merton because I'd read all of his professional work on option pricing Theory which was my specialty back in Academia so I was qualified enough to write a basic biography of them but I found it very intimidating because I knew that they were going to take my draft and send it out to the most prestigious Finance professors they could find to agree to review it and I was going to get feedback and it felt really a lot like grad school yeah and that was really the the moment when I said okay this isn't going to work like this isn't fun we really have to make this a lot easier and a lot more open and so that was a really crucial moment the moment. I tried to get something through the system
00:12:25so when do you were working on new PDI and you were like sending these draft articles around I guess probably be like all over the country how are you collaborating with people well I mean this was the thing and that one of the problems that new pedia had is that the only real way to collaborate back then was to email around a word doc and if you emailed around the word dog then the typical cases nobody responds for the worst case is 5 people respond and they will change the document in different ways and now you got to figure out how to integrate that all but you know they the concept of a Wiki which is a website in the we can edit it was actually invented by a guy called Ward Cunningham who's this lovely great programmer and some of the Hawaiian word which means quick and Daddy was quick collaboration and so the idea is that there's a document on the web but anybody can come along and edit it and save it and so what we were the first to really
00:13:25say hey let's use that tool to build an encyclopedia would you find out about this week for anything he says process of writing articles throw up and everyone and then the entire Community will what kind of cross reference and check it well I mean a little more than that we had a good size community of people who are working on new pedia and so these people were all very eager people who love the concept of a free encyclopedia for everyone and their own language that was a really exciting concept and so initially we thought will let start this as a tool for that community so it'll still be new. But we're going to use this Wiki as a way for that Community to begin to work together little more efficiently and I made the decision to put it up at the domain name wikipedia.com rather than keep it on new pedia because we weren't really sure like we have a lot of a cat
00:14:25makes a lot of very serious people on the mailing list and it seemed a bit of a crazy idea and we thought they might find it offensive and so we said okay let's just set up on a different domain and see what happens but of course the history is that Wikipedia very very quickly outstrip new pedia in terms of the content created in the quality and everything else I should know this to me but I don't what was the was the first Wikipedia entry unfortunately there was no history kept of the very early days the earliest history was lost so we don't really know that the earliest article that anyone has found was an article on the letter q and I'm sure that was not the first article in Wikipedia I know the first words in Wikipedia they were hello world and I know because I typed them and then very quickly we just started doing list of things States and things like that so I guess you launch Wikipedia in January of 2001 new PBS still still exist
00:15:25it's not like in like 2 weeks you had more articles on Wikipedia the new pedia generated in the previous two years that's right yeah yeah that's was was a pretty minor achievement in one sense but it was it was an eye-opener it was like why we got this great community and people just started right in making articles on various random things and other people editing them and there's a lot of pent-up excitement about let's just get started building this in the the change from really this huge very intimidating process that was not very collaborative to being able to say you know and it was very sudden you just be the first person to say Africa is a continent and hit save and while it's not very good but it's not wrong and it's a start that was very addictive the idea that you could actually change something this is all being run out of where like a did you have an office in San Diego or was it your apartment or what
00:16:25office with this was during the Obama stay so we had a few programmers and sort of cheap office and warehouse space this is the. Of time when ad Revenue was good so we were able to just hire some people to get started so I guess you very quickly realize that Wikipedia is good if she could potentially be huge like did seem clear like within the first month or year yeah it did it did I mean it you know I remember looking at a list of the top websites at the time and there was an encyclopedia reference kind of site at ranked at number 50 and I thought she if we do a really good job we might be number 100 or maybe even in the top 50 but it was always this idea of like this could be a big thing if we can figure out how to do it you can have a huge impact
00:17:17in just a minute when Jimmy Wales was faced with the question of how Wikipedia was going to make money he decided that it wasn't there with us on Gyros and you listening to how I built this from NPR
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00:19:27welcome back to how I built this from NPR I'm guy Roz so in the early days Jimmy Wales was able to get Wikipedia up and running and he was funding it with money from his first internet startup Thomas Thomas was running ads to.com Boom was in high gear but then of course kmvt.com crash and all that add money to get dried up pretty fast and bomb ass would eventually have to shut down completely but at the same time Wikipedia was growing and Jimmy had to figure out how to keep it growing without a lot of cash there was no money really to support Wikipedia but it didn't cost a lot of money it was really community-driven and so it really was one of the reasons that Wikipedia became a huge success I would say ironically is
00:20:21lack of funding because if I had had the money if I'd gone to Silicon Valley and convince somebody to give me millions of dollars to start this then your natural instinct if you have any problem on the side is too so can we just need to hire some moderators and we're going to make decisions when I have staff members who decide things and it said we couldn't hire anybody so as a community working together we had to find her own Solutions in so we had to say you know what are the software Solutions we need to be able to control for vandalism and then imagine we have a really really tough editorial decision we have to make how do we make those decisions all of those things happened because there was no money to hire anyone because I would have been much easier to just hire people that would have actually prevented the rise of a more natural set of solutions who is managing it was it just you and Larry Sanger was just the two of you were helping out of course but it's basically we had to think a lot
00:21:21about how to remove the cleaning the right direction you know there were a lot of really complicated questions around okay when do we ban people when we block people from editing when I when do we think they've gone too far and a lot of the editorial policy you know you have questions like to what extent do we allow people to write essays or commentary or put jokes and articles and I decided no neutral point of view is like our core belief and so on but all those decisions have to be made and they were made in discussions with community in and so forth and just wanted to that Wikipedia was growing super fast and it was going to be could potentially be huge
00:22:05you decide a r I guess around 2003 to basically create a nonprofit organization to run Wikipedia what was that the thinking at that why'd you do that
00:22:17so there are few things going on there so first of all this was still the depth of the.com crash there was no obvious business model the community of volunteers very much wanted it to be in a non-profit when I thought that had to be taken into consideration and it finally for me it just made sense like it was aesthetically it just seemed like the right thing that Wikipedia my ambitions for Wikipedia to become a really important moment in history in a really important cultural contribution really made a non-profit of a much more sensible option and then you know I think if we have gone in a different route it would be very different today you can interview to slashdot website /. And you said imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is giving free access to the sum of all human knowledge that's what we're doing this amazing idea but I wonder
00:23:15why you could not have done that same thing and still put pads on Wikipedia and stuff so if you think about the DNA of any organization is it difficult to stop an organization from following the money so we can and as a non-profit we could run a legal prohibition on a non-profit running ads is that as a means of support sure yet because the organization tend to follow the money then suddenly inside the organization people would start carrying a lot more about our traffic in highly developed advertising marketing we would begin to care more about which Pages you're reading because if you're reading about Queen Victoria there's very little to sell to you and there's probably the ad rates are very poor if you're reading about Tesla cars or vacations in Las Vegas or something
00:24:14hidden content that would drive higher ed revenues which is really not what we want to do we're an encyclopedia we don't think about adding features that might drive page views for traffic we just think about how do we make the encyclopedia better and how do we reach more people would just leave the developing world that's just like fundamental to what this is all about
00:24:35so when you basically said writes a non-profit we're not going to have any advertising we're going to it's going to be user-generated content how do you even fun to that how we going to get the money to even fun that's in the pain the server so what happened was the main reason that we went ahead and set up a non-profit was exactly thinking of that for the future but I have no idea whether it was going to be possible to set up the nonprofit in June and at that time we were running on two or three servers and so then we had this disaster was a Christmas Day when two of our 3 servers crashed and I had to scramble to get the site running on one server and it was painfully slow and so forth and it was clearly obvious because the traffic kept tumbling then we're going to have to buy a bunch of servers and so that was the first time that I decided to do fundraising campaign to ask people on the site to give money in these days we call it crowdfunding and it's you know everybody knows it but back then it was
00:25:35a normal way of doing things and I remember very clearly that I had hoped to raise about $20,000 in a month's time but in about 2 weeks and we could raise nearly 30,000 so it was the first fundraiser was a huge success I mean people really said hey this is great we really want to support this and so lot of small donor than that of course today is the model for Wikipedia that people who believe in Wikipedia who think it's useful in their lies say hey I should chip in
00:26:07when did you soap soap Wikipedia really kind of starts to just blow up in the early 2001 did you what do you want to know you first sir cognizant of that what did you realize that Wikipedia was become really big like part of the national conversation I think there were a few moments but I think one of the most important ones there's a guy John siegenthaler Junior who is a very esteemed journalist and he called me up to complain about his entry when was this 2005 and he said hey there's a problem because Wikipedia says that it was briefly suspected of having something to do with the Kennedy assassination of this is a man who was one of the pallbearers at Robert Kennedy's funeral if I remember the story correctly it's a big friend of the Kennedy family and the store was absolutely untrue and once he called it was took about 10 minutes to get that fixed and changed
00:27:07we looked into how it happened and so forth and so we thought okay problem resolved but then he wrote this skating at Oriole in USA Today about the site and it got a lot of attraction that story so we had this really big thing and they they tracked me on CNN to yell at me and so forth and then suddenly we ran all the Press everywhere are traffic really exploded because of all the news coverage so that was the that was the upside but that's not the way you wanted traffic to explode but in the end that was actually a moment that was important for us at how come why this lead in the community to a real reflection on quality on sourcing this is when we came up with the biography of living persons policy and really started say look if it's a biography of a person than anything negative in the article really needs to have a good quality Source because that's just not acceptable to have negative thing
00:28:07call people that aren't true Vigilant about that I'm a person of course there's always the possibility of this happening and so forth and it does happen but it is very very Vigilant about it and when he tries hard to keep anything like that out of this site is amazing as Wikipedia on a day-to-day basis everyone use I use it or use it use it I remember that time that John seigenthaler article to 2005 ump are we were not allowed to use Wikipedia as a source and it wasn't just NPR news organizations like Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source and it just shows you sort of think that should still be your policy Wikipedia is quite good it is definitely not perfect and what always say is Wikipedia is the place to go to get the questions and all the answers it's the way to get yourself oriented in the context and actually always say go on The Talk page of any article and see what are the Wikipedia and struggling with if they're saying G you know this sources
00:29:07listen these sources say that in there seems to be a conflict hey that might be the most interesting question you can ask is let's get to the bottom of this there is conflicting information out there and also you know if you wanted use Wikipedia as a starting point then you can always go to the footnotes and go to the actual source and that's what you should do
00:29:25Jimmy I just cannot imagine running this volunteer organization with hundreds of thousands of millions of people to actually Millions who voluntarily editing sites and did you ever just like get you so wild up that you just didn't want to do it anymore I'm not really I remember the very early day I would get up at night and check the site because I was convinced that somebody's going to come in and trash it overnight which never happened and then quickly I realize like a vandal did show up at 3 a.m. my time last night but guess what somebody who's an uncanny member was up in Australia and actually block the person and fix the problem and understand like communities do inherently scale and I think that is part of what helps me not be overwhelmed by anything
00:30:19so we're now in this phase and I'm like the history of the internet people fake news in like that term for obvious reasons but with so much information that looks real that's not real it's not new I mean it happens vacuum in history but now because there is so much information available it sometimes difficult for people to discern what's real and what's not and I and I wonder whether one of the challenges with Wikipedia is reasonable people are disagreeing about basic facts how do you reconcile how does as we could be a deal with that
00:30:54if you are the elements 01 when we think about the quality of sources that's a really Court thing in Wikipedia and we have a lot of discussions in the bay tonight I think a fairly sophisticated approach the thing about the following sources and I agree with you I don't like the term fake news but the original use of the term was really about clearly completely made up websites look like new sites with no concern for the truth with outrageous headlines and so on and those kind of sites have had almost zero impact at Wikipedia because wow you know that might do well to share on Facebook something that comes from a publication called the Denver Guardian because it looks like a new site and Denver everybody knows Denver's a city in America and guardian sounds like a newspaper so 6 plus one look at it and say I've never heard of that paper that stuff doesn't really get into Wikipedia a broader problem that I am concerned about it
00:31:54right now that the Trust in Media in the US but also around the world but in the u.s. is really at an all-time low you know but it's a tough problem and I think it's a societal problem to say look we really do need quality information most people are very passionate about wanting to be told the truth yeah you know that the best way to prepare people for authoritarian rule is not to indoctrinate them into an authoritarian philosophy but to make them believe that there's no such thing as truth and that's that's a trend that I'm not happy about
00:32:29how many did you know how many Wikipedia pages that are today in English for example there's just over 5 million English language is 40 million + 250 + 250 yen to Wikipedia around the world it's something around 75 thousand people every month who make it least five edits it's probably three to five thousand is the core community of people who are making a hundred more at it and so that's quite a lot of people but it's not as many people as some might think of course making 5 that it's in a month that's not a huge amount of participation but you're pretty you know you're around and they'll be a lot more people who just make one at a year but in terms of the real Community it's probably that 75000 Jimmy what motivates 75,000
00:33:29or are few hundred thousand people to donate hundreds of hours of a time every year for free to do this I think it's two things so first you know the mission a free encyclopedia for everyone in the world is Meaningful and you could spend your hobby time playing Grand Theft Auto or doing something else and the world wouldn't be any better off when you're done and if you spend a few hours editing Wikipedia you can go to sleep and think yeah it was productive the world is a little bit better than it was and then someone somewhere will benefit from and that's great. Also just fun people you get to meet people are interested in the things you're interested in no matter how its QR the ethos of the community is to say look no personal attacks were here to discuss the content if you go on the discussion page for a controversial topic you're not there to just debate that topic you can do that
00:34:29play some internet what you get a debate about how do we improve this article and that's just a refreshing kind of feeling and so a lot of people really find it suits their personality do you know what the revenue is like any revenue from Wikipedia from the nation's I should know the number exactly off the top of my head but I don't but I think last year was around $85 just from donations donations that's important understand that when the community gets together to debate something about what they want to have Wikipedia say what a policy should be there's never a question of what will the thunder steak Yeah and over the years we really tried to run the organization in a very financially conservative way every year we try to build a reserves a lot of our donors one of the things that they really want from Wikipedia is that Wikipedia be safe and so that drives us to say okay they don't want us to run out of shoes
00:35:29they don't want us to run nearly a break-even and nearly going broke every year we need to be stable and that's been a real value for many years
00:35:37when you think about this thing that you built and your role in the history of the internet how much of of the success of Wikipedia do you think it's because of your Brilliance in your hard work and how much do you think it is simply safe lock a huge amount due to lock Brilliance and hard work okay maybe not so much I do think a component of the success of Wikipedia is that I'm a very friendly and nice person and I'm very laid-back and so therefore I was able to work in a community environment where people basically yell at you and you just have to kind of roll with it and you're in some sense a leader but you can't tell anyone what to do there volunteer so you have to work with love and reason to move people along in the in a useful way so I do think that I'm not a relevant to the process but I also think that you know the community is amazing and the lock of the timing of
00:36:37really hitting that moment when it was possible to build Wikipedia Jimmy you've seen the estimates that if we keep pedia wore a for-profit it could be worse at least 5 billion dollars maybe more doesn't mean anything to you. Really I mean it's people they love to write about Jimmy Wells is not a billionaire actually there articles with that headline yeah my life is unbelievably interesting I have the ability to meet almost anyone in the world who I want to meet and if I'd say I want Jimmy Wales eye on the largest chain of Car Dealers across the southern part of America
00:37:37place in that regard I do I do think that no one will remember me and 500 member Wikipedia and I mean it's really something I mean that's something that you can really hard leaving get your mind around given comparisons to the Gutenberg Press right this is the biggest serve dissemination of knowledge in in modern world history well it's been embarrassing to talk about it that way I Just Want to Have Fun Jimmy Wales founder of Wikipedia on Wikipedia entry which is a big No-No is entry showed he was born on August 8th 1966 which is what his birth certificate also says because according to his mother Jimmy was actually born shortly before midnight on August 7th so he made the change only to be confronted by angry
00:38:37the editors who demanded documentary evidence which of course he could not finish because his mother's version of when it happened
00:38:50and please do stick around because in just a moment we're going to hear from you about the things your building but first a quick thanks to one of our sponsors swell investing and impact investing platform that identifies high growth companies solving today's biggest environmental and Social Challenges claim your $50 bonus through swell investing.com built
00:39:16thanks so much for sticking around because it's time now for how you built that and the story starts almost 20 years ago when Florence Water Wall was working in fashion helping to pick the clothes that models wear photo shoots which sounds like a pretty cool gig right but I was not happy with him I'm really was missing the creative part of things and the designing of things parents with missing designing things because well she's a designer she grew up in France and then moved to Atlanta where she did that fashion job but you wanted to start something for herself and I need to create a company you I need to do something that's going to come from me if I was going to cut into some kind of a spiral and Florence was looking around for something to inspire her and ask what happened her mom was working in Peru at the time and what her mom invited Florence and a friend to come visit they went we had no idea when we were going there for
00:40:16we explore what the locals were making in to see if there was some kind of a business that could be done with that finger puppets you probably have seen them be little cute animals made out of yarn people have been doing this for many years and for some reason they were a bunch of the puppets and they started to sell them in Atlanta and think is pretty well but Florence kept thinking you know I don't really want to sell someone else's work I want to design my own thing I was thinking what is it that children really want what is it that children like I like when I was a kid what is it that was in my most vulnerable moment and so he was really this dog is little companion and I thought I could really turn this thing into a doll so bronze design her own doll and she took those designs back to Peru where she
00:41:16gave them to artisanal Knitters to get one for her the first one was different shape to it and I really wanted to do some Modern chapter 3 years of working with different Knitters in Peru Florence and Susan finally had all they were ready to sell this really cuddly squishy pretty sure that's needed and so you get a sense that he could have been done by your grandmother however it look of it is really modern the dolls are stitched with these Simple and Clean lines and they got these long arms and legs and a dog and a Frog decided to name them bla bla dolls and it's just a playful and it just really works for kids company and as soon as I said it
00:42:16can interested and level adult even started to appear on TV shows like Homeland and in Celebrity magazines they became so popular they inspired copycat and wow blah blah why is still relatively small Lawrence and Susan say they are now considering bringing in outside investor to help scale the brand and they're in Toxic by doing a possible TV show they have a life of their own that we we confusing them it's so it's a really beautiful Starry slumber party at the several of the boys have been to bring along their favorite stuffed animals including at least three lovely dolls
00:43:01I want to find out more about blah blah check out our Facebook page and of course if you want to tell us your story go to build. Npr.org we love hearing about the things your building and thanks so much for listening to our show this week if you want to find out more or hear previous episodes in good how I built this. Npr.org please also subscribe to our show at Apple podcast or however you get your podcasts you can also write us or email addresses HIV tea at npr.org are Twitter address is at how I built this or shows produced this week by Casey Herman 19 Eric Louie composed the music thanks also to neva Grant Santa's meshkinpour Thomas Liu and Jeff Rogers AR intern is newer could see I'm guy Roz and you've been listening to how I built this from NPR

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