Full Transcript for Founder Transitions, Open Boards, and the Hospitality of Search with Cleve Justis

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WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Higher Ground. 00:00:02.240 --> 00:00:09.359 I'm very excited today to have my friend and fellow search firm strategic consulting leader, uh Cleve Justice, join me here today. 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:12.400 He founded Petrero Group 15 years ago, I think now. 00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:18.800 After a successful career in the nonprofit sector, he's an author and a professor and teacher, and excited to have him here today. 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:19.920 Thanks so much for joining. 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:21.199 Thanks for having me, Christine. 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:21.839 It's great to be here. 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:22.800 Awesome to see you. 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:28.640 So, like us, you spend a lot of time advising boards and leaders and supporting them in their career journeys. 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:34.079 And one of the things we've been exploring on higher ground is what are the experiences that shape people into who they are today? 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:38.880 So tell me a little bit about your story and how those experiences made you the business leader you are today. 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:39.679 Yeah, thanks. 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:41.039 It's a great, great question. 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.039 I grew up in the hospitality business. 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:49.280 My parents were both entrepreneurs on the East Coast and they ran hotels, restaurants, lodges, and bars. 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.520 And it was very much a family business. 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.000 So a lot of executive search is really high-touch hospitality. 00:00:56.159 --> 00:01:02.159 You're working with busy people, you're working with boards, you're working with leaders, you're working with people who are a little stressed. 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:03.759 And it's a very similar. 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:10.719 And the more I think about it, I think about my background in hospitality, which really was much of my first 25 years of my life, was around that. 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:15.359 And I bring that to search and we really try deeply to find the right fit. 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:20.239 And it's so much of that is the intuitive piece and working hard to be customer focused. 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:22.079 And how does that play out in searches? 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:32.400 One of the things that I'm always thinking about that you and I have talked about, I think, is how do you balance being hospitable to clients and supporting them, being supportive of candidates, but also making sure that everyone gets to the right conclusion? 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.640 How do you think about that in your work? 00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:38.239 Yeah, to me, I think about it as a trust-building activity. 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:46.640 And that's part of why nonprofit search takes longer than a lot of searches in the corporate sector, because you're working with a committee rather than just a CEO. 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.120 And so you have to build the trust with those people. 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.920 You have to build the trust to sometimes say the difficult things that need to be said. 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:58.959 And so I think I see it not unlike building a connection with a customer in a restaurant. 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:05.680 You want to exude confidence, you want to hear want them to know that you hear them and that they're taken seriously. 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:12.479 And sometimes you have to give bad news or uncomfortable news that the order's not going to be there right when they want it to, or you thought it would. 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:14.000 And it's the same thing with search. 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:22.080 Sometimes the searches take longer, sometimes you have to adjust the salary, sometimes you may have to change what you ideally want to get the right candidate. 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:23.039 So I love that. 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:24.800 And it definitely plays out all the time for me. 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:28.879 I don't know if you're feeling this, but I feel like there's underlying anxiety in the country and the world, right? 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:31.520 Generally, existential threats all over us. 00:02:31.599 --> 00:02:40.879 But I do feel in the nonprofit sector, we just get a real sense of anxiety, risk aversion, people scared to make moves, to not make moves, worried about funding, worried about sustainability. 00:02:41.039 --> 00:02:44.639 What makes you optimistic in this moment despite all those challenges? 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:47.199 Yeah, I think our clients are similar in that way. 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:49.759 There's just so much uncertainty right now. 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:54.400 I guess fundamentally, I believe deeply in the nonprofit sector. 00:02:54.639 --> 00:03:06.879 I believe that the nonprofit sector in the United States is truly one of the things that makes us a great country, in that we've got a backstop to government and we've got a citizen movement, and it's not easily controlled. 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:11.840 It's truly a democratic institution, one of the most democratic institutions in our country. 00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:18.560 And so I, while it's difficult, I just so believe in the work of our clients and the work of this movement. 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:29.439 And I think that people, donors, foundations, and others respond to it, especially when you give them good talent and good candidates for that they can see the pathway to the next level. 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:30.479 That makes a lot of sense. 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.000 You and I've talked about before too. 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:40.000 Something we're facing is a lot of founder transitions, a lot of people given the, you know, uncertainty of the moment are just where they are in their lives, deciding to move on. 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:47.039 What do you see that's different about that kind of transition and how you work with

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boards and how the organization needs to function in a search than it would normally? 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:50.639 Yeah, I think founder transitions are a unique search. 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:55.120 And we've done five in the last six months in one form or another. 00:03:55.280 --> 00:04:01.439 And I think of a founder transition as not only the founder, but someone who's been there a long time, generally over 10 years. 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:07.360 And I think those can be quite tricky because the organization molds around that person. 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:17.920 And I think it's very easy for search committees when they have an opportunity to look forward, they instead look backwards and say, Wow, you know, I want somebody like the last person who left. 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.560 And we're always encouraging our clients to really say, okay, well, that's great. 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:26.720 That made them successful, but the only thing relevant now is what's moving forward. 00:04:26.879 --> 00:04:32.480 What are the skills that you need to take all the great work that founder did and move the organization forward? 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:34.160 And they're probably very different. 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:40.639 And so I think it's a complicated mix because you need to have the outgoing person feel comfortable. 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:44.000 And this is something they poured their life into, and they have to let go. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:51.120 And that requires a lot of care and feeding, a lot of kind of challenging conversations and a lot of trust. 00:04:51.360 --> 00:05:00.079 What I will say is when the founder has set things up well, has a strong bench below them, then it goes much better. 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:08.079 And I think there's a real obligation for boards to be doing all the things we recommend in terms of uh contingency planning and planning for the future. 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:08.959 Yeah, definitely. 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:14.800 I mean, I sort of liken our job sometimes to grief counseling as well as family therapy, especially in those founder moments. 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:30.879 I find sometimes the search process itself can actually be a really positive piece of the puzzle in terms of moving people from founder as leader or whoever it is as leader to what are we looking for to owe new person, you know, and that actually that process itself is almost like a grief rebirth process. 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:33.040 I don't know if you agree, but I've sort of always seen it that way. 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:34.240 I I completely agree. 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:39.199 And it's funny you should mention that because on the board next to my desk, I have a quote which I'd borrowed from somebody. 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:45.600 It says, founder transitions are psychological processes disguised as organizational ones. 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:52.079 And I like that, yeah, I often approach it that way and really help people understand it

is a grieving process. 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.560 And that's exactly the way I think about it. 00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:11.600 And it's important to both recognize that's happening for the founder and also for the board and the staff and just to prepare it because I think our firms are in privileged positions where we've done so many searches, we can often anticipate things and hopefully the clients can benefit from that. 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:21.680 It's one of the reasons to trust a great search firm is that they can see things and hopefully make the transition easier and better and keep it moving from a donor perspective or staff perspective. 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:24.000 But yeah, I absolutely think that's the case. 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:29.040 And one of the things I've noticed lately is that sometimes like grieving that comes in waves. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:34.959 The founder sometimes may be very controlling and just want to know every last thing is in order. 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:40.000 And then sometimes steps way back and is super hands-off, sometimes in the same day. 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:45.199 And that can be very jarring for people when they're used to the consistency of the founder. 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:47.920 Well, and I think particularly if they are burnt out, right? 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.199 Or they're just feeling like they're done or not really sure what their role is. 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:52.480 And I'm sure you get this too. 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:57.199 We always get that question, whether it's a founder or just a transitioning CEO or ED from the board. 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:58.879 Well, what do you recommend in terms of their involvement? 00:06:58.959 --> 00:06:59.680 What do you recommend? 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:05.360 And you know, we all have benchmarks of things that we sort of do as adults, but they're also often a gray area there, right? 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:07.759 And a lot of it depends on the person and the organization. 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.800 But I do think it's a tricky, it's a tricky thing, right? 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:11.680 I don't know about you. 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.600 I think about it'd be really hard for me to step aside. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:17.279 And I at some point I'll retire from leading an organization I've led for so long. 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:18.720 You know, it's hard to step away. 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:19.519 Well, it's it, yeah. 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.839 The irony of your question is we're both founders. 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:22.720 Right. 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:27.519 So maybe maybe with the last people we should be talking about it with. 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:35.120 But yeah, and and I think it's helpful to recognize that because sometimes the thing that you can see in others, you're not always so good at yourself. 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.920 And I think it's something we we talk about as a firm. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:38.079 Yeah. 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:38.480 Yeah. 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:40.399 Do as I say, not as I do for sure. 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:40.800 Right. 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:41.279 I know. 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:46.000 When I tell people to build succession planning and build, you know, lots of systems underneath them that can survive them. 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:48.399 I'm like, am I doing that as well as I could? 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:52.000 Well, we had a good conversation with senior leadership just about that. 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:57.360 Like, if something were to happen to me, are all the little pieces in place for running the business to keep it moving? 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:59.199 And the answer is not entirely. 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:00.959 And that is a good wake-up call. 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:06.560 And it put a mirror on me about how difficult it is to be a founder and think about transition. 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:07.360 Definitely. 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.680 So tell me when we all start businesses, we're probably we're pretty naive, right? 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.279 About how things are gonna go, how great it's gonna be, how hard it's gonna be. 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:22.240 Tell me like one kernel of a thing that is even better than you thought it would be and something that's even more challenging than you thought it would be when you started this. 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:29.680 Yeah, I think what I have loved about my work in search and and consulting is the ability to change the system. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.759 And that's why I went into nonprofits, as I wanted to improve the system. 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:45.279 And as you know, we work with a lot of environmental nonprofits, and you work obviously with education and more broadly, but I found that when I was working in those systems, it was really hard to make change to the degree and speed that I want to. 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:54.000 And I find that in this role, there's such an opportunity to bring in new leaders or to help the board grow and change and strengthen itself. 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.799 And that to me is so rewarding. 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:04.720 I think I was I was fearful when I left the working in a one or nonprofit that I would feel lonely or the engagements would feel shallow. 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:05.759 I don't feel that way at all. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:11.440 And we've had many of our clients we've worked with three, four, five, six years in different engagements. 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:17.200 And I've watched the organizations transform through our processes, and that's enormously gratifying. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:24.639 In terms of the the low points, I think probably the low point is just some of the minutiae you need to do to run a business. 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:26.080 It's just challenging. 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:34.240 And we're a virtual firm, so we have employees in something like eight or nine states, and you know, just managing all that is is a

work. 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:36.480 And I really love the client work. 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.879 I don't love all the paperwork and the back end work. 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:40.960 I don't know what about the compliance load. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.080 Yeah, it's such a good question. 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:44.879 And I think similar to you, the ability to have an impact. 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.360 I also don't think, and it sounds like we have similar stories. 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:49.840 My parents were self-employed, they're therapists. 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.720 So they didn't own businesses in the same way, but I did grow up in a household where they were self-employed. 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:57.279 But I don't think I ever saw myself as running my own thing. 00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:08.720 But I think that autonomy, that ability to have impact and drive the impact we want to have is something I hadn't anticipated, but I really love that I can say to the team, we're gonna take on this project, we're not gonna take on this project, we're gonna try this new thing or not that new thing. 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:14.399 And I think you and I are very values aligned in that that we and our teams try to think about impact always, right? 00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:22.000 That it's about us as a business, but it's also about being a double bottom line in the sense of like also what's gonna make impact on the sector, what's gonna make a mark and make a difference. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:23.200 So that part I love. 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:25.519 I think the ups and downs sometimes, right? 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:30.000 So, like you said, the paperwork, but also just the inevitable, like it's on your shoulders. 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:33.679 And like you, I don't mind responsibility, but it's a lot sometimes, right? 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.039 To sort of feel like I'm charting a course, I'm hoping it's the right course. 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:40.799 You don't know for sometimes six months if the decisions you're making are the right ones, you know? 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.679 So I think you and I, you and I both have worked in the sector. 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.240 And I think that's one of the things that distinguishes both of our firms from a lot of the big firms. 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.639 We're not looking for just another market, right? 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:52.080 We're looking to have an impact. 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:58.000 And so I know that our clients put a lot of responsibility and time and money in our processes. 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.440 I probably like you believe it's worth it and we get a much better outcome. 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:07.120 But nonetheless, it's often supported by taxpayer dollars or donors or others. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.679 And we, like you, take that really seriously. 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:10.879 So I do feel that way. 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.159 Well, and I think we both, because we're not so

solopreneurs, right? 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.600 There is a certain budget amount we need to charge for our services, right? 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:24.159 And I think the margins are narrow in the nonprofit space, but you know, there needs to be enough to pay everybody and get it taken care of. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:26.399 And even so, I'm sure you feel the same. 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:32.080 I know that paying for us to do an executive director search is a huge commitment on the part of a small organization, right? 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:33.600 That's a huge amount of dollars for them. 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:37.440 And we take that really seriously, that that's a really we really understand that. 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:43.039 And a lot of the pitches, what you've just said, which is yeah, there are cheaper ways of getting there, but you're gonna get a lot more value for this. 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.679 But I I don't take it lightly that it's a huge expenditure for them. 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:52.320 I think what they get often beyond, and I think a lot of people think they're getting the candidate and a final person for the job. 00:11:52.399 --> 00:12:02.159 But what I think people forget about our businesses and retained executive search is all the consulting support, all the advice, all the building of the organization. 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:08.720 And I feel like in many ways, that's as valuable as the person that we locate because that is, yeah. 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:09.840 Yeah. 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:10.240 Yeah. 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:14.639 Well, and I and I also think that that's where, to your point, us being sector specialists and you're the same, right? 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:20.159 We all come from within the space makes a big difference because we're not just offering generic expertise. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:28.639 I always say we're not just people, corporate people who are like, oh, it'd be cool to do a mission thing, or you know, like we actually, this is who we've always been professionally. 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.480 Well, it really I think it really helps us because you can feel it, right? 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:39.039 Like when the big international firms come into the space, they're often taking a loss and not putting their best talent on the circus. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:41.840 And you and I, our firms, we're we're putting it there. 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:42.879 That's where our market is. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:44.080 These are the people we know. 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:47.039 We have repeat business, and that trust is so important. 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:55.039 So I think our clients and our our candidates just get a much better experience because we know what it's like to be in our client's use. 00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:00.399 We've been board members, we've done the work, we've, you know, so it's not just theoretical to us. 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:01.039 Fine. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.720 So speaking of being board members, I know you all do a lot of work recruiting and advising boards, which is really great to see. 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:08.720 Um, I've learned a lot from you all about that. 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:14.320 What's what's a conversation that you think board chairs need to be having right now that they may not be having in the nonprofit space? 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:20.080 To me, the biggest one is how they build their bench of of talent for the board. 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:26.159 And I feel like so often when we come into an organization and there's struggles, they're often board challenges. 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.159 And I think the way that we've recruited board members is needs to change. 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:46.960 And, you know, I've talked about this, but I think so often we ask our friends or professional colleagues to join the board, which is fine, but they often are overtaxed time-wise and they're doing it as a favor, which doesn't necessarily lend itself to the best outcomes for the nonprofits. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:52.399 So the biggest advice I have is to say, how can you take the search and go external? 00:13:52.559 --> 00:14:11.840 And it's not hard to do, but just instead of just keeping it kind of closed and secret, being willing to create a position profile, just like we do an executive search, an application, broadcast it widely, and then have to see who comes in the door rather than just assuming that your friends and colleagues are the best fit. 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:17.600 Because usually they have redundant skills to yours and they're often as busy as the current board chairs. 00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:25.039 So I'm a huge fan, and we're starting to see this really take hold in the last couple of years of broadening the invitation. 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:32.080 And then that also brings in audiences that typically haven't been at the table for nonprofits and have so much value to give to them. 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:34.399 Yeah, you all have done some open board searches, right? 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:36.639 It seems like you've seen some good success with that. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:37.759 Yeah, it's amazing. 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:42.879 I will say typically when we lead an open board search, we get between 30 to 200 candidates. 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:44.320 We have gotten upwards of that. 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:45.360 And people. 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:51.679 Yeah, and it is amazing because when people write to join a board about why, it's really emotional. 00:14:51.759 --> 00:15:02.480 You know, if they've taken the time out of their lives to fill an application and apply for a job that they essentially have to pay to be on because donations are are expected from those board members, they take it really seriously. 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:13.759 And it's it's fun to watch, it's fun to see, and it's fun to see the clients just get so excited about people they never thought would would come their way and

just how much it adds to it. 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:21.360 We we just did it recently for Minnesota Public Radio, and it was outside of the core market for us, mostly because we were working with boards. 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:27.600 And uh, they just brought so much talent to that organization, particularly when it's most needed because of some of the federal cutbacks. 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:31.279 So you're always writing and creating new things and thinking about new things, Cleve. 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:32.480 What's on your agenda this fall? 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.159 What new things are you launching or doing? 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:35.519 Well, I'm doing two things. 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:37.840 One is we're doing a retreat, leadership retreat. 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:47.120 One of the things that's come out, and you and I have spoken about is that leaders often need more space to come together without going to a conference where it's filled with content. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:48.320 So that's fun. 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.799 It's called Cobb Mountain Leadership Retreat. 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:55.279 And I'm finishing a book on boards, and that's fun. 00:15:55.360 --> 00:16:01.440 And that's been it's been a couple year project, but I just feel like I don't always have good resources to share with a client. 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:08.559 I feel like a lot of times the board's resources are a little too academic or speak a little too low for a lot of the board members. 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:26.559 And I think what I'm hoping the book will do is thread those so you get a piece that people that have been on private sector or worked in the government can apply that knowledge and use it effectively in the nonprofit sector because usually people are really talented, they just don't understand the nuances of our sector. 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:27.120 Definitely. 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:31.200 Well, anything else that folks should know about Portra Group or you before we wrap up. 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:36.399 Boy, I just anybody who has questions or wants to follow up with me, I'm always happy to meet with people. 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:38.879 I just want to thank you, Christina, for inviting me. 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.519 You've been a huge friend and mentor to me. 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:46.879 And uh really, you know, it's fun to that we'll get to spend some time together at some conferences this fall. 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:48.240 So definitely. 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:58.399 Yeah, and we are we should say we're both members of two different member associations, the network of nonprofit search consultants and the association of executive search consultants, which is a global group, which we both really enjoy. 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:04.079 And both of those are membership organizations where they take seriously uh both giving back to the sector as well as the work that you do. 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:04.799 So great to be able to do that. 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:05.359 And I love that. 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:11.839 And I think that's a good plug for finding other colleagues and mentors and and peers because leading is lonely. 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.079 And we see that in nonprofit executive directors, we see that in our businesses. 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:22.880 So I very much appreciated spending time with you and sharing ideas and getting feedback on how we can get better and vice versa. 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:24.640 So I I very much appreciate that. 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:32.880 And any of your listeners, I would just really encourage people to find other peers and mentors to to support them so they don't feel like definitely. 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:34.160 Well that's a great place to wrap up. 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:35.759 Thank you, Cleve, so much for joining. 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:37.119 We'll look forward to talking to you soon. 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:38.000 Wonderful. 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:39.039 Thank you, Christina. 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:39.759 Bye.

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