After years of unusual episodes dating back to her childhood, Anita went to the doctor and was told there was nothing medically wrong with her. "She had a gift," she was told, and she was sent down the street to an ESP lab. Parapsychology is the scientific study of telepathy, clairvoyance, telekinesis, precognition, and spirits. Or is it? The field has been pushed to the fringes of science for decades now. In two episodes, I first follow the study of psychics, and then the mainstream sciences of human nature, to see if they differ enough to make one worthy of belief, and the other scorn. Guest voices include Anita Woodley, John Kruth and Sally Rhine Feather of the Rhine Research Center, and philosopher Massimo Pigliucci.

United States


00:00:00is the S. P. real the answer that most parapsychology this will give you is S. P. happens we observe it in the lab so there's this room and it has padding in its like for soundproofing you go in and you sit there Synnot opposite room you can't hear
00:00:22what's going on there you're given a blank piece of paper and a pencil and I was able to draw like Christmas tree things a bird some snow I don't remember it coming to you I could just see it I saw a bird Papa and I drew the bird
00:00:38and I sh salt like some Holly pop up so I true that and I could see snow falling so and I felt cold so I felt that and I put that down and I wrote down happiness I wrote down a window because I saw a window appear and
00:00:55then they came out and said what did she say I share what I saw and they pulled out a greeting card and it had a cardinal on it with Holly snow falling in a window and I'm like Wall got it right so then they did another one and
00:01:16in this room you're sitting with twenty people they have a big brown bag and a small object in there it stapled and all sealed up Tate and what you're supposed to do is be able to look into that back and know what's in there so just imagine I'm
00:01:31sitting there with my paper and I'm just sketching current dental wagon I drew a leg that was spent the ABC star ABCD Gee I could hear them and it stopped on EM so I wrote him down and then I saw circles and I just put it all down
00:01:48and then they took the object out and it was a yellow Eminem may and dental lakes in arms with the letter M. on his belly and I was like day your now what does that mean it means there is a phenomena that occurs that we have no physical
00:02:10explanation for this has a very substantial effect on all of science science has been based on materialism and now we're talking about something that doesn't seem to have a material fact this is revolutionary listening to hi fi nation show about philosophy to turn stories into ideas I'm very
00:02:38land in this first season I'm producing the show of the basement of a building that has a very interesting history in nineteen thirty five second floor was the site of the Duke parapsychology lap run by JB Rhine coined the term E. S. P. R. extrasensory perception Hey Walter
00:03:09has gone I decided to ask my colleague the philosopher Walter set out Armstrong to do one of the earliest and simplest ESP experiments to see if either of us have any has P. abilities so what happens you take five cards with five different shapes on it so I
00:03:26think what you do is you shuffle the cards without showing them to the other person and then you pick one of them and you look at it without the other person seen and then you focus on that shape and the other person tries to pick up from your
00:03:44mind what shape you are looking at I'm focusing on a shape I will go with the cross got it again baby you have okay you have the power after the Duke parapsychology lap closed in nineteen sixty five JB Rhine continued his work eventually moving the Rhine research center
00:04:08to the other side of campus hunted take you there now slowly through the eighties and nineties universities let their parapsychology researchers age out really buried the history there's a kind of embarrassment to this day that research of this car had been practiced here and elsewhere it's a little
00:04:35strip mall here and parked here there's maybe about twelve parking spots in right outside the Rhine research center where it's new location is my name is Sally Rhine feather I'm the oldest daughter of J. B. L. Y. to run back in the early nineteen thirties in England it
00:04:59was sort of a heyday of psychical research in this country there was an American branch of that American psychical research and that was the beginning of this interest in science coming into these areas that's what attracted my father well he and my mother both had devoted their life
00:05:17to science they had both achieved a DA PH dis in plant physiology I'm John G. Kruth on the executive director of the ride research center parapsychology is sensually the study of five very specific phenomena telepathy or mind to mind communication clairvoyance which is getting information about objects something
00:05:37in a locked drawer something even halfway around the world remote viewing is a form of clairvoyance precognition which is getting information through time psychokinesis being able to affect objects like of ball or pencil fifty area of study in parapsychology is survival studies near death experience out of body
00:05:56experiences communication with spirits reincarnation and operations and hauntings there is been over eighty years of E. S. P. research going on first within the mainstream universities now more or less at the fringes the researchers continue to publish new findings VS P. every year found in lab and controlled
00:06:21settings they're all people trained professionally in the sciences doctors engineers psychologists physicists what makes them fringe is what they're researching not how they're researching they want to be taken more seriously when you give something the stamp of science you give it a kind of legitimacy that few other
00:06:46stamps have today it's what we call in philosophy epistemic legitimacy homology is the study of knowledge giving something the stamp of knowledge has a lot of consequences it means we can act on it it means we should make policy around it and it means that those who disagree
00:07:09with us are just wrong all science is knowledge it that when you rightfully call something a science you're saying that it's closer to knowledge that any other form of investigation we have in the next two weeks we're going to follow two groups of researchers one that has been
00:07:30called the control group for science para psychologists and the other is the mainstream human sciences like psychology political science medicine I want to see if eighty years after J. B. allies of line started there last we have a good way to figure out what to trusted sites whether
00:07:50it's easy to separate out good science for bad science I'll give you the answer now it isn't easy my name is Anita Woodley and I am a performer of F. no dramas and health disparity shows I'm also a journalist and columnist for the news and observer Anita was
00:08:19a journalist and producer first that CNN and then a public radio today she's a performer and speaker she's also one of the Rhine centers high scoring psychics so I wanted to hear her story I would say it was when I was maybe around two or three years old
00:08:39most of the activity was at night time when no one was there but I could see all these people in the house and when I was maybe about five or six I told my great grandma one time that there's this guy that comes out of this army picture
00:08:53in the room I was in and he would go in her room and go by her purse and then go in the kitchen and she said oh yeah he visits all the time and I'm like you see him too and she's like yeah you this is just normal
00:09:07that we have this gift in this family and then one night he went behind her little chess %HESITATION that she had and picked her purse up went in the kitchen and I screamed out he has your prayers because you don't take grandma's purse right I learned that because
00:09:23I actually took money out of her purse wants to punish her and so I knew you don't take grandma's purrs at that I got that will that and so after that happened she got up and she didn't get mad at me that I screamed in the middle of
00:09:38the night when in the kitchen and there was her purse sitting and she said he's moving stuff again the word got around in the neighborhood there's this eight year old girl in apartment two that knows a lot of stuff and if you talk to her stuff comes true
00:09:57in our neighborhood was very impoverished lot of drug dealers a lot of shootings and killings and I would get paid to tell people what was going to happen next in their lives these are the biggest baddest dudes coming to my house and knock on the door of his
00:10:14Mabel can I speak to Loomis Anita I hung they come in my bare mom leaves the door open and I sit there on Monday it playing with my dolls and like okay what he wanted now and I'll tell you one guy his name the scar he would pay
00:10:28me to use my phone to call different ladies and stuff like that this before cell phones and so I looked at him one day and I told him you're going to die this week and he said come on baby girl don't say that you know because you know
00:10:42you be known as step I said now you're gonna die and you're going to be killed someone's gonna shoot you while you're trying to get through a gate that week scar was murdered and that continues to happen I wouldn't know if someone was being killed in the process
00:11:01of being killed usually it comes to me in dreams and they're very vivid as soon as I fall asleep boom I'm somewhere else my grandma was walking me I might and I was holding her arm she disappeared and we were on fifty fifth street in Oakland next thing
00:11:22you know a baby is crawling across the room but its head is detection it's saying mama to me I go into a house and these guys won't let me out and they kill someone but I'm looking through this little slip there in the closet I leave and there's
00:11:38this blue pickup truck with a license plate that's the only thing that's very thick so I keep repeating myself and I wake up the dream lasted all of fifteen minutes I told my mom someone's going to die and my mom was like need it don't come in here
00:11:55with that miss I need you to stop because you scared me six in the morning my mom always watch news when she comes in my room screaming Kitchell S. up did you see that a grandmother's day two girls a day a baby got shot in the area the
00:12:15daughter was on crack and they sprayed the whole house with a gun because they couldn't get their money we should call the police because I have the license plate number and I know the car she said the hell you want are you a little black AS that's how
00:12:28she said don't tell the police did you know all this this so she told me not to say anything kept me home to make sure I didn't and I didn't know the girls were from my school it was of eleventh and tenth grade girl at my school so
00:12:47I decided to go to the funeral behind a door that was open about that much was the daughter who should have been killed but wasn't home and she was looking through to see the whole funeral just like I was in the closet so when it's time to go
00:13:01up in view the bodies I completely freaked out and I start screaming uncontrollably my sorry I'm so sorry and I filled in the casket like just don't want to the mother and I'm Screamin and people are looking good feels that is not her daughter my cousin brought me
00:13:19back to the P. U. X. she already knew what I told her and it just dissipated like it went away and I stop crying we went and got some church's chicken and I went home like nothing happened the license plate number ended up being the license plate number
00:13:42and the car they caught the people and when they show the picture and everything almost passed the hell out and that's when I knew I don't want this gift so my great grandmother told me that god would give it to somebody else and she taught me how to
00:13:58pray it away she called he said don't worry he give it to somebody else you not ready and that's what I did and nothing happened for a long time until I had my son when I started breast feeding and I've had a severe post partum depression after next
00:14:18I had pre eclampsia nearly died from that condition for some reason that opened up a whole thing to where I went from not just knowing but also being able to smell when things were going to happen I was told to go downtown with a red coat and just
00:14:38stand there there someone I'm going to give a message to I listened I don't have anything else to do but make milk no problem and so I go down there and stay in and I can hear now the voice is now things were invoices people were like on
00:14:53somebody's off their meds I'm standing there and this lady and her husband walks up and I go up to them and said I have a message for you I was told to come down here and tell you that you're going to die in thirty days then they both
00:15:13start crying she didn't look sick these were like normal folks okay and she said %HESITATION on my god her husband said how did you know that because we were just told an hour ago with the doctor's office that she's dying Hey look man I'll make this stuff up
00:15:33somebody just told me to come tell you and all I want to say is that everything's going to be okay the family will be okay it will not be painful and I just came here to pray for you and let you know that god loves you as the
00:15:49post partum kind of died down and I got that and to control it level to but it state and so that's what happened I moved here to North Carolina met %HESITATION doctor Diane at Duke and she was the one that told me you don't have purse partum depression
00:16:08anymore that's been five years you don't have medic depression you don't have any of these issues you have a gift that was my second time hearing somebody say that first great grandma and this doctor son the prescription Pratt she wrote you need to go to the Rhine research
00:16:24center there's other people like you that have these unique yeah so you can learn how to use them have a good day you heard about two of any does tests at the beginning of the show those tests at the Rhein center verified for Anita that she did have
00:16:43psychic abilities and she decided to find a way to control them and use them rather than denier suppress them it's one thing to know that you have a hunch or you do you think you know stuff my mom was so you think you know everything like you got
00:16:57a crystal ball turns out if she were alive I actually do and so it's it's something what I like is bridging that gap with science I take it as seriously is having my journalism degree because they have all of these different parameters and things to look at to
00:17:15see can you guess the next number that's gonna rolling the dice it shows that this isn't a fluke this is something that's happening like you're tuned into another frequency and you can use it in your life every day at this time I see I need to have a
00:17:33lifetime of experience from child all the way to adulthood visions and coincidences backed by validation from her family but it wasn't until after she got to see your results from being tested in a lab setting up the Rhine center she became comfortable her abilities were real that's the
00:17:53power of the label of science yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah now you can listen the hi fi nation with the free radio public app it's a great app for finding and following podcasts it also has curated podcasts playlists from interesting people they're like mix tapes prefer podcasts I
00:18:28pre one myself which you can listen to right now on radio public just go to radio public dot com slash hi fi nation you can download the app for iPhone or android and you can hear the shows that I chose a some of my personal favorites you're listening
00:18:44to hi fi nation show about philosophy to turn stories into ideas I'm very lamb when you live a life like a need as there are so many events that confirm for you that you have the S. P. when you also get confirmation in a lab it's hard to
00:19:02dismiss but if we're going to give so much legitimacy to the practice of science we have to know how to separate out good science from bad science and a lot of cases this isn't easy one view of science a famous one that emerged about the time JB rights
00:19:22research didn't think that science should be in the business of confirming anything my name is muscimol PUG on the K. D. E. Donnie professor of philosophy at the City College of New York confirming it here it's too easy once you know what you're looking for you can always
00:19:36find bits and pieces of information that seem to fit when you're tearing the problem is is there a principled way to show that the theory is wrong a good scientific theory should make not just predictions about what is possible in one it's actually factual but also should have
00:19:54a number of statements about what it's not possible when it's not going to happen the group she is talking about the famous falsifiability criteria of the philosopher Karl Popper Popper had this view that good science is in the business of debunking things not confirming things so what makes
00:20:16something a good scientific claim is that we know how to debunk it if there's no way to know how to debunk it it isn't science it doesn't matter how much confirmation you think you have for your view there are a lot of premonitions out there and a lot
00:20:36of them come not true so they all seem to confirm yes P. but to all the permissions that don't come true show that there is any S. P. or does that show that he S. P. isn't perfect but it's still there what would count as showing that E.
00:20:55S. P. isn't real if poppers right and falsifiability and falsification is what science should be doing what is the run research center focus on debunking people who claim to be psychics that that was a on a policy that J. B. early on he helped the bunk a lot
00:21:13of people you just don't go down that road for lots of reasons we could started mocking people and and I don't know what good it would do in the long run I think it would just muddy the waters the term deep bunker has really bad connotations it implies
00:21:28a world view it implies a presupposition that someone's a fake scientists and psychologists are scientists we have to Baghdad gnostic and our approach to our work if we go in with a specific opinion before we start you know we're humans we often times find what we're looking for
00:21:48whether it's there or not and so the idea of debunking not something the Paris psychologists are interested in doing if for example someone who would come into our lab and tried to do some work with our lab and we get no results that doesn't mean it's not psychic
00:22:02it means on that day he did not perform well in the lab we can make statements saying this person was in the lab and did not have success on this day it's not a hundred percent of the time at the same time we are very interested in promoting
00:22:19people who do have successes within the lab if they're interested so we do not work as the bunkers for specific reason because we're scientists it might sound like for E. S. P. researchers nothing really counts as falsifying yes P. even failures in the lab that's inconsistent with Popper
00:22:41for him theories worth taking seriously are the ones that tell you how to debunk them and then don't get debunked they're not ones that get debunked but you always have an excuse for the to Bungie John crews though is actually challenging the idea of sciences falsification even for
00:23:01proper there's this alternative ideal of a scientist as an impartial judge of truth a scientist comes to their investigation with no pre established opinions or bias sees you're not looking to falsify or verify you're looking to compare two competing hypotheses and you're only giving an impartial judgment from
00:23:27that experiment John crew thinks that everyone who takes the stance should accept that U. S. P. Israel because of some very specific experiments the godfather experiments are essentially a test of general E. S. P. what it involves is we take two people we separate them into different rooms
00:23:47in one room we have a person who is considered the receiver they said in a very comfortable chair in an isolated environment their eyes are covered their ears have white noise playing and it and they speak stream of consciousness about whatever comes to mind the other room we
00:24:07have a second person called a Rick Santorum the sender is watching a video or an image of some sort and trying to send information to the receiver in the other room the council the experiment has been going on for forty years now the idea behind it is that
00:24:25if you clear someone of their sensory perceptions you can heighten their E. S. P. and they read someone else's mind better you give the sender for different images to look at and the receiver has to try and read the sender's mind the way it's set up you would
00:24:43typically expect people to get about twenty five percent one out of four targets correct but people typically get about thirty two percent accuracy which might not seem like much but thirty two percent is one out of three instead of one out of four because of the number times
00:25:01it's been replicated it's a strong demonstration that there is something going on the downside experiment demonstrating general E. S. P. right center was testing whether I need to have the S. P. in khans felt you're trying to find out if people in general have yes P. across the
00:25:19whole population if we tested everyone would we find some E. S. P. N. that population the council experiment clearly exhibits this other model of science we have to I prophecies that there is the S. P. or that there's no yes peons population if there's no E. S. P.
00:25:40we'd see twenty five percent the data comes in and it's thirty two percent rather than twenty five someone impartial judge should conclude that we have some yes P. in the population the other thing to note about parapsychology the studies that come out positive the ones parapsychology site is
00:26:10the best evidence always indicate a small effect what that means is that when individuals exhibit ESP they always do just a bit better than random guessing they're right about coin flips fifty five percent of the time rather than fifty a very important concept in the human sciences is
00:26:31the difference between affect and effect sizes if the drug works it means people get better from taking it so it has an affect but it might be that without the drug people get better in seven days and with the drug people get better in six days so there
00:26:52isn't a fact but it's a small effect in parapsychology the positive results if they're there at all are always small effects small effects are by nature very hard to detect the hard to distinguish from things that will happen by chance unless you have a large number of subjects
00:27:16are trials in Paris psychologist claim that that's true in the ganzfeld experiments they have a large enough sample over forty years to show that there is an E. S. P. affect it's just very small this brings us to the next part of our story a second set of
00:27:34experiments the Paris psychologist clean make for a landmark study only this time it came from a distinguished mainstream researcher by the name of Gerald them I was a grad student is getting a master's degree in developmental psychology from Cornell and took a class that was taught by Darrell
00:27:54bam was one of the best classes I ever took Matthew metals now researcher in psychology and education Duke he was a PhD student at Cornell about a decade ago and in this in the class he told us the story of how he first got involved in studying parapsychology
00:28:13in E. S. P. and all these things and it was he was invited to I think Scotland where these parapsychology tests one ed outside researchers to come in and say evaluate our methods we're trying to do experimental science but because his parapsychology the world isn't going to believe
00:28:34us so they wanted external people to come in and say what are we doing wrong how can we improve our methods and what band has said is that he was really actually impressed with their methods and had told the researchers that he said you give me the data
00:28:50I know how to publish just about five years ago twenty eleven %HESITATION put out a paper called feeling the future people look at a random set of words forty words didn't tell them anything just and watch the words after they saw the forty words became a pop quiz
00:29:10and he said try to remember these words and try to see how many they would remember the way this kind of study usually goes is that after the quiz you train the subjects on a kind of memory technique then you have them take the test again see how
00:29:25well they did the second time you compare to the first time you see if the memory training had an effect well after Darrell did his memory training he stopped the test he never gave in the second test and what we found is that people remembered the words that
00:29:43they were trained on when they took the test even though the training happened after the test occurred get that what he's saying here is that if you want to do well on the test make sure to do some studying after the test you'll to better even though you
00:30:02already took the test because it yes future this is a form of pre sentiment or precognition if by chance people get fifty percent of the pop quiz them show the people who were trained after the quiz got a fifty three percent it's not a fluke or a small
00:30:27affect how should we be even if it were a small affect I always consider it kind of like baseball and I think about the best players in baseball if they hit the ball and get on base one out of three times they're considered superstars and yet people look
00:30:48at parapsychology as if while the psychic should be able to perform every time but if it's a skill if it's an ability that you develop if it's something that's subtle and your name and it's not a hundred percent accurate that doesn't mean it's not happening that doesn't mean
00:31:04that it's not productive and useful three twenty hitter in baseball isn't just a little better than the normal person the normal person would be lucky to get a one hit out of a thousand at bats against a major league pitcher hitting three twenty in baseball is %HESITATION huge
00:31:23effect on the worst day for three twenty hitter he would do massively better than the normal person showing that you have ESPN the lab is like finding someone who gets two hits out of a thousand rather than one at that small effect wire pairs psychologist so sure it's
00:31:44E. S. P. and not something else this turns out is the key problem in science what justifies one conclusion rather than another given the data that you have you're listening to hi fi nation show about philosophy to turn stories into ideas a lamb the fundamental question is the
00:32:18philosophy of science and science in general is what should we conclude about the world from the limited observations we've made a small corner of the world we're looking at this is the oldest question in science must be moping Lucci is an issue that's been going on August fifteen
00:32:39sorry subtle who is often credited to be the first scientist but ID startle is often criticized for not relying on experiments as if the guy just didn't realize it experiments can be a source of scientific information in fact at the startled didn't do experiments on purpose explains why
00:32:56you didn't do experiments he says you know the thing is if you go out in nature you observe things you're describing the way nature actually works if you do experiments you come up with a contrive system which is obviously artificial and so yeah you get some results but
00:33:10you never know how much those results in action applicable to nature this objection is still valid today that's not a council for not doing experiments but it is a council for being careful about extrapolating from experiments under controlled conditions to you know real life situations in science you
00:33:27want to draw a conclusion about the bigger world from your experiments you're not just investigating the artificial world you're creating in the lap and you want that conclusion to be objective something everybody had to accept if they were all impartial judges of the truth that's the holy grail
00:33:51give me a rule that everyone should follow no matter what they're studying no matter who they are whenever we have data from an experiment everyone will come to the same conclusion because of this role well the scientific community found a role they liked it started using it everywhere
00:34:16the **** significant statistically significant statistical significance value P. nine P. value that rule is called statistical significance P. less than point oh five then you Rumsfeld experimenters if you've read any popular science telling you that red wine is good for you that low carb diets help you lose
00:34:45weight but the super rich aren't happier than the middle class all of them were based on this one rule of statistical significance so if science is the impartial testing of competing hypotheses science is drawing conclusions on the basis of the accepted scientific standard parapsychology is perfectly sound science
00:35:19what is this role of statistical significance or P. less than point oh five I'm gonna try to explain it to you but it's really hard to explain even for the professionals just like myself out here okay here we go let's go back to my parapsychology experiment with the
00:35:42S. P. cards I got three out of ten right I chance I should get two out of ten right should I conclude that I have yes P. because I did a little better than chance no one thinks so because ten rounds just isn't enough you could really just
00:36:01be lucky and get three out of ten could I be lucky I get four out of ten five out of ten how bout nine out of ten the P. value in this context is an attempt at determining what percentage of people would get three out of ten just
00:36:19by luck or even ten out of ten just by luck the P. value tells you what percentage of people with no E. S. P. at all will look like they have the S. P. when guessing shapes in a card game in my own case I might have yes
00:36:37P. but even if I didn't I'd get three out of ten about forty percent of the time anyway so my P. value is forty percent it's so high that we don't want to scientists to draw the conclusion that berry has the S. P. SO berry statistics here are
00:36:59not statistically significant to be statistically significant you have to have a low percentage were low key value if I got eight out of ten for instance less than one percent of people who didn't have yes P. would be lucky enough to get eight out of ten or even
00:37:21better statistical significance is the cut off point whenever people do a study and a crunch the numbers and the P. value they get is below a certain number the whole field decides that's it that's good enough you found something and in most of the human sciences that cut
00:37:43off was five percent or P. less than point oh five if P. less than point oh five I can report that it wasn't just lock something else was happening in my experiment that would be seven out of ten I would get seven out of ten only three percent
00:38:02of the time if I didn't have ESP by the rule that had been accepted in the sciences seven out of ten would give some evidence that it wasn't just lock the idea behind using the rule of statistical significance goes hand in hand with the view that a scientist
00:38:28is an impartial judge of two competing hypotheses you want to get rid of bias sees that people bring to science when they're doing science it makes things more objective if everyone had the same standard for what conclusions to draw from a particular experiment statistical significance tries to make
00:38:49it impossible for people's prior biases to affect their conclusions it's just the specific statistics that you find in that experiment that warrant one firm conclusion for everyone Terrel bell studies accepted this perfectly as a psychologist is not that weird to see if memory training help people do better
00:39:14on a quiz afterwards at one P. less than point oh five you get to say yes it did so if all you did was train people after they took a quiz Doggett statistical significance by the same set of rules he found something and you can't deny it just
00:39:34because it's about yes P. but there's an alternative view there is an additional issue about a psychology if psychic can is were true then we will have to revise physics because physics tells you that you can't send information back in time with her own mind what that does
00:39:52is it puts the burden of proof definitely squarely on the part of psychologist and it is a large part in for Friday the smaller that the priors are the more convincing the evidence has to be writers here which is just means the prior opinion you have of parapsychology
00:40:09if your prior opinion says that yes he is crazy when you look at the small effect sizes in these experiments it shouldn't matter to you that they're statistically significant because you're not applying one rule to draw your conclusions you can dismiss the smaller fax as cases of lock
00:40:28or flukes or noise why because your prior opinion tells you that yes P. goes against everything you now but being lucky and food he doesn't your pre existing judgments about how Wilder counterintuitive the theory is affects the standard you apply to experiments and studies any other bicycles above
00:40:54that's unfair I don't think it is unfair that's the way science works scientists tend to be conservative in terms of the notions and they accept if you're proposing a a large departure from all we know you better be prepared to to back it up with a large amount
00:41:08of convincing evidence otherwise I'm just not paying attention because it's more likely to be %HESITATION through the notion that at dinner real one here's a new standard for science that we haven't heard of yet science ought to be conservative new ideas different ideas that don't fit with our
00:41:30prior opinions should be subject to much higher standards there isn't just one standard of drawing conclusions for everyone no matter what their study according to this criteria parapsychology isn't science because well it's contrary to everything we know from all of the other sciences if this sounds like a
00:41:58bias because it is but is it bad to have this bias what we miss some deep hidden truths about human beings because we were being too conservative it be nice if there were a way to find out maybe there is one man tried to set up a test
00:42:24Brian no sec I am the executive director of the center for open science and a professor of psychology at the university of Virginia what he found next time is it hi fi nation dot org for complete reading list and soundtrack for this episode this episode of hi fi
00:42:45nation was produced written and edited by Barry lamb production assistance from Shadowland drops support for this episode was made possible by the humanities writ large fellowship at Duke University visit us at hi fi nation dot work that H. I. PH I. nation dot for like us on Facebook
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