Full Transcript for ep123: 'Canada Down' and Cultural Power + Confronting Rising Islamophobia

--> 00:04:15.939 vandalism and online harassment have increased over the past year 63 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.860 and a half. Here in Montreal, a fake severed hand 64 00:04:18.899 --> 00:04:21.939 was thrown at the Islamic Center in Verdun in July. 65 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:25.360 We've seen how Islamophobia can turn lethal on a dime. 66 00:04:25.860 --> 00:04:29.680 Remember the deadly 2017 Quebec City mosque shooting and the 67 00:04:29.819 --> 00:04:33.000 Afzal family, run over by a white supremacist driving a 68 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:37.459 pickup truck in 2021 in London, Ontario. Despite the closure 69 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.699 of her office, Amira El-Gawabi says her work is. 70 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:41.399 Far from over. 71 00:04:41.779 --> 00:04:45.339 Thank you so much for being here today. To start off, 72 00:04:45.579 --> 00:04:48.689 I want to talk about the situation of Islamophobia in Canada. 73 00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:53.689 We've seen increased reports of online harassment, vandalism, and even 74 00:04:53.709 --> 00:04:58.949 some outright physical violence. So what's the situation with Islamophobia 75 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:01.939 in Canada and in Quebec as well, more particularly? 76 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.110 Well, thanks so much, Emilio, for having me on this podcast. 77 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:07.230 I can tell you that our communities are really on 78 00:05:07.350 --> 00:05:13.970 edge right now. Canadian Muslims have been going through significant 79 00:05:14.029 --> 00:05:20.500 Islamophobia for a long time. Being here in Montreal and Quebec, 80 00:05:20.509 --> 00:05:22.459 where we'd had a massacre a few years ago, it 81 00:05:22.980 --> 00:05:25.519 brings it back to me every time I come to 82 00:05:25.540 --> 00:05:29.420 the province. And I wish I could say that things 83 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:32.319 had gotten better, that the awareness that was raised after 84 00:05:32.370 --> 00:05:36.970 that horrible attack, you know, had helped push back against 85 00:05:37.110 --> 00:05:41.310 the really dehumanizing, dangerous narratives that continue to proliferate about 86 00:05:41.329 --> 00:05:44.629 our communities. But the sad reality is, no, I don't 87 00:05:44.649 --> 00:05:46.750 want to say this, but I think it's getting worse. 88 00:05:47.810 --> 00:05:50.199 Just in the past, I was just looking at my 89 00:05:50.339 --> 00:05:53.720 news feed, just in the past, say, six months, there 90 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:58.300 have been incidents where you know, a family assaulted, a 91 00:05:58.860 --> 00:06:01.160 father beaten up in front of his kids in Ontario. 92 00:06:01.939 --> 00:06:06.720 You have here in Quebec, a fake severed hand placed 93 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:10.029 in front of a mosque. You have, you know, right 94 00:06:10.069 --> 00:06:12.750 across the river where I live in Ottawa, in Gatineau, 95 00:06:13.149 --> 00:06:17.649 a mosque there being the subject of repeated threats, threats 96 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:21.189 over several weeks where a man has now since been arrested. 97 00:06:21.209 --> 00:06:24.329 I think there's about seven out of 10 provinces at 98 00:06:24.449 --> 00:06:28.730 least that we've seen attacks on Canadian Muslims, whether they're 99 00:06:28.750 --> 00:06:32.660 places of worship, assaults, women in hijab assaulted on buses 100 00:06:32.740 --> 00:06:36.959 in the streets, children assaulted with their families on the 101 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:42.269 way home from prayers in Ramadan. It's become, you know, 102 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:47.709 overwhelming in some sense today. A member of parliament, Salma Zayed, 103 00:06:48.569 --> 00:06:53.439 you know, alleged arson of her car, two cars in 104 00:06:53.500 --> 00:06:55.490 her driveway, and of course we're going to wait to 105 00:06:55.500 --> 00:06:58.790 see what the investigation shows, but, um, it's hard not 106 00:06:58.810 --> 00:07:01.110 to feel that that was targeted against her for being, 107 00:07:01.149 --> 00:07:04.709 she's a visible Muslim, Canadian Muslim, member of parliament. She 108 00:07:04.750 --> 00:07:10.420 has been outspoken on Palestine, on Islamophobia, on, on anti-Palestinian racism. Um, 109 00:07:10.699 --> 00:07:12.939 you know, it's hard not to feel that that's part 110 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:16.540 of a, that broad pattern I just described. So, um, it's, 111 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:20.360 it's been a real rough ride and, um, You know, 112 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:22.670 always try to look for the silver linings that a 113 00:07:22.699 --> 00:07:27.810 lot of Canadians are, you know, shocked and very much oppose, 114 00:07:28.029 --> 00:07:32.189 hate of any community. And so it's trying to balance 115 00:07:32.310 --> 00:07:34.740 and hold those two truths at once, that on one hand, 116 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.560 there is a lot of concern. My father just the 117 00:07:36.579 --> 00:07:39.019 other day said to me when I was, you know, 118 00:07:39.100 --> 00:07:43.019 FaceTiming him from Toronto, he was like, it's getting dark. 119 00:07:43.139 --> 00:07:45.720 Can you please make sure to get back to the hotel? 120 00:07:46.139 --> 00:07:50.029 I don't want anything to happen to you. And that 121 00:07:50.430 --> 00:07:54.600 kind of hits hard because, you know, I grew up here. 122 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:57.600 I feel that I'm generally want to feel safe. My kids, 123 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.319 I want them to feel safe. And all the work 124 00:08:00.339 --> 00:08:04.160 we've been doing to address this, it sometimes feels like 125 00:08:04.180 --> 00:08:05.000 you're running in place. 126 00:08:05.899 --> 00:08:06.180 Yeah. 127 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:09.699 And this increase in violence has been happening. It's been 128 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:13.709 simmering for like the past few years. And in the 129 00:08:13.730 --> 00:08:17.470 middle of that, Mark Carney decides to abolish the office 130 00:08:17.490 -->

00:08:24.199 of your position that is explicitly to combat Islamophobia, also 131 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:30.139 eliminating the office combating anti-Semitism. The government said, oh, it's 132 00:08:30.189 --> 00:08:33.629 not a cost-saving thing. It's about promoting unity. And now 133 00:08:33.669 --> 00:08:39.789 they have this big name, the Advisory Council on Rights, Equality, Inclusion. 134 00:08:40.909 --> 00:08:42.990 So they said it's to promote unity, but you're now 135 00:08:43.190 --> 00:08:46.919 not involved anymore at the federal level. Why do you 136 00:08:46.980 --> 00:08:48.899 think your office was abolished? 137 00:08:50.299 --> 00:08:53.210 Well, I mean, I can only take the government at 138 00:08:54.149 --> 00:08:56.809 the word of what they said, that they want to 139 00:08:57.529 --> 00:09:03.429 unify efforts around equality, inclusion. These are all very important. Certainly, 140 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:06.600 when I was in office, I spent three years working 141 00:09:06.700 --> 00:09:08.519 not only to combat Islamophobia. 142 00:09:08.539 --> 00:09:09.539 But the undercurrents. 143 00:09:10.509 --> 00:09:13.970 That lead to division, to dehumanization, to the othering of 144 00:09:14.029 --> 00:09:17.139 various communities and that harms all of us as Canadians. 145 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:21.779 And so, you know, that decision to close my office 146 00:09:21.820 --> 00:09:25.799 happened rapidly. You know, as reported in the Toronto Star 147 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.720 the day after, I was only notified the night before. 148 00:09:29.899 --> 00:09:30.940 I had no inkling. 149 00:09:30.980 --> 00:09:32.799 I had a year left in the mandate. We had 150 00:09:32.850 --> 00:09:35.889 done incredible work. I really want to shout out the 151 00:09:36.210 --> 00:09:44.009 Camelson Organizations, NCCM, TCMV, you know, CMPAC professors, academics like Dr. 152 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:46.360 Nadia Hassan, Dr. Everett Iman, there's a long list of 153 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:51.000 people who worked with us, worked within communities to really 154 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:54.870 help inform the government of Canada on how to address 155 00:09:55.190 --> 00:09:59.639 this phenomenon that um, is a threat to Canadians in general, 156 00:09:59.779 --> 00:10:04.379 not just our communities, because it basically erodes our sense 157 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:08.500 of inclusion, human rights that we say we stand for 158 00:10:08.899 --> 00:10:13.379 and democratic freedom. And so the right to practice your 159 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.110 faith is a cornerstone of a democracy. Um, It's supposed 160 00:10:18.149 --> 00:10:20.669 to be protected under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. 161 00:10:20.809 --> 00:10:24.230 So the decision to close the office definitely was a 162 00:10:24.269 --> 00:10:28.980 blow to me personally. I was excited to continue. We 163 00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:33.799 had published a guide on combating Islamophobia. No other government 164 00:10:33.820 --> 00:10:35.759 in the world had done that type of work before, 165 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:37.960 and it's still available on the Government of Canada's website. 166 00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:40.899 I'm very proud of it because a lot of people 167 00:10:42.309 --> 00:10:45.789 kind of know what Islamophobia is, but there's so much 168 00:10:45.889 --> 00:10:49.019 noise even around the term itself. And so the work 169 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:51.399 we were doing in our office really aimed at doing 170 00:10:51.450 --> 00:10:55.570 two things, raising awareness about how it impacts the day-to-day 171 00:10:55.629 --> 00:10:58.710 lives of everyday people who are simply wanting to live 172 00:10:59.370 --> 00:11:02.090 lives of dignity, wanting to go to work, go to school, 173 00:11:02.929 --> 00:11:06.090 pay their taxes. And no one wants to talk about 174 00:11:06.149 --> 00:11:08.570 the discrimination they're facing. So that was important, the awareness. 175 00:11:08.669 --> 00:11:12.509 And then secondly, looking for strategies. How do we find 176 00:11:12.690 --> 00:11:16.250 ways to fix this? How do we build resilient communities 177 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:20.169 that can, you know, be able to stand up this 178 00:11:20.610 --> 00:11:24.809 onslaught of divisive narratives online that we are seeing that 179 00:11:24.850 --> 00:11:29.529 are pulling people into rabbit holes, into these echo chambers 180 00:11:29.610 --> 00:11:33.240 of hate. And we're seeing it not just against Canadian Muslims, 181 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:36.399 against other communities as well. But it's important to understand 182 00:11:36.419 --> 00:11:39.539 that Islamophobia, there is a distinction here because it's still 183 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.500 socially acceptable to be Islamophobic in ways that you know, 184 00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:47.049 it's hard to find similar acceptability for any other form 185 00:11:47.129 --> 00:11:51.669 of hate and racism. You have American politicians spewing all 186 00:11:51.750 --> 00:11:54.990 sorts of, you know, horrible things about Muslims that I 187 00:11:55.029 --> 00:11:58.750 won't even repeat here. And yet there are no consequences, 188 00:11:59.269 --> 00:12:01.710 you know, and I think that's really dangerous. And we're 189 00:12:01.730 --> 00:12:05.190 starting to see that creep up back in Canadian discourse. 190 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:06.549 And I'm very worried about that. 191 00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:10.509 Yeah, so the timing seems a little inopportune, if I 192 00:12:10.549 --> 00:12:13.139 can say that. in the face of the current situation 193 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:16.720 to eliminate this office with the creation of this, like 194 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.519 sort of combining these different efforts is the work still 195 00:12:20.570 --> 00:12:23.549 being done under the federal government? Like what's some of 196 00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:26.389 the things that sort of get lost when

you create 197 00:12:26.490 --> 00:12:30.730 one office for, for all of the, you know, religious motive, 198 00:12:30.870 --> 00:12:34.279 religion motivated hate crimes and just have this vague inclusion umbrella, 199 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:35.019 what gets lost? 200 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.940 Well, I think what's important to understand is, is yes, 201 00:12:39.019 --> 00:12:41.789 we have to promote the values that we all share, 202 00:12:41.870 --> 00:12:44.659 inclusion values, these are really important. That's the umbrella in 203 00:12:44.700 --> 00:12:47.259 which we operate here. But it is important to be 204 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.539 able to specifically name the different types of hatred and 205 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:53.200 discrimination that people and communities face. So it's important to 206 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:58.570 name anti-Semitism. It's important to name anti-Palestinian racism, Islamophobia, anti-Black racism, 207 00:12:58.909 --> 00:13:02.710 anti-Asian racism, anti-Indigenous, all of these forms of racism. And 208 00:13:02.730 --> 00:13:05.129 there is a long list. We have to look at 209 00:13:05.169 --> 00:13:07.289 them each on their own, and we have to address 210 00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:11.049 all of them. And there is, you know, an anti-racism 211 00:13:11.070 --> 00:13:13.990 strategy that the government of Canada has put forward and 212 00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:18.129 has been spending and investing in efforts to combat racism 213 00:13:18.149 --> 00:13:20.090 in this country. And I hope the government of Canada 214 00:13:20.110 --> 00:13:23.429 continues to do that critical work. You know, when I 215 00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:26.029 was growing up, you know, in Ottawa, that's where I 216 00:13:26.070 --> 00:13:30.289 grew up, I remember seeing, you know, stickers that said 217 00:13:30.330 --> 00:13:33.490 stop racism, like stuck on like, you know, bus poles, 218 00:13:33.549 --> 00:13:36.029 you know, waiting for the bus. I remember commercials on 219 00:13:36.070 --> 00:13:37.490 TV saying racism is bad. 220 00:13:38.379 --> 00:13:38.799 Matters. 221 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:42.490 That effort matters. And that was back in the 1980s, 222 00:13:42.590 --> 00:13:44.470 not to date myself too much, but that was in 223 00:13:44.490 --> 00:13:48.029 the 1980s where I knew that racism was a thing 224 00:13:48.070 --> 00:13:51.370 and I knew that, you know, it was important to 225 00:13:51.409 --> 00:13:53.879 speak out against it. Now, you know, if you look 226 00:13:53.909 --> 00:13:56.639 at surveys and what our children and young people are 227 00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.820 exposed to in terms of racism online, hate online, it is, 228 00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:03.919 you know, 60% up to 60 or 70% have seen 229 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.929 hate and racism say within the last you know, few 230 00:14:06.990 --> 00:14:09.529 months or whatnot, like within very short times, you'll see 231 00:14:09.590 --> 00:14:13.389

hatred targeting people. We need to ensure that our society, 232 00:14:13.909 --> 00:14:15.809 just as there's that investment in hate, that there's an 233 00:14:15.870 --> 00:14:21.210 investment in the counter hate, anti-hate efforts. And so, yes, 234 00:14:21.230 --> 00:14:23.570 there's a lot lost when we kind of, you know, 235 00:14:23.950 --> 00:14:26.850 water it down, water it down and not understand that 236 00:14:26.870 --> 00:14:31.100 there's different dynamics at play and that there are actors, 237 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:36.190 bad actors who are deliberately pushing narratives that are meant 238 00:14:36.289 --> 00:14:39.769 to cause suspicion. I'll give you one story that shook 239 00:14:39.809 --> 00:14:43.120 me to my core. In Markham last fall, a family, 240 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.279 a Muslim family living next to their neighbors for 14 years, 241 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:50.299 they knew each other. The man next door starts going 242 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:54.340 down that rabbit hole I mentioned of hatred. He confesses 243 00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:57.919 to another neighbor who's not Muslim, says, listen, I've got 244 00:14:57.940 --> 00:15:01.789 a plan. I'm going to bomb them. He's an HVAC expert. 245 00:15:01.909 --> 00:15:04.529 I'm going to bomb the house. with the kids in it, 246 00:15:04.730 --> 00:15:09.070 I'm going to bomb the mosque. That neighbor, thankfully, bless 247 00:15:09.110 --> 00:15:12.850 his soul, bless his heart, he goes and reports that 248 00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:15.549 neighbor to the police. They arrest him, they charge him, 249 00:15:15.909 --> 00:15:19.990 they convict him. When I spoke to the family, the 250 00:15:20.029 --> 00:15:24.610 father is just shocked. This is not about, oh, we 251 00:15:24.649 --> 00:15:27.649 don't know Muslims, therefore we fear them. This is a 252 00:15:27.730 --> 00:15:31.289 family that live side by side their neighbor. They knew 253 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:34.330 each other, but because of those narratives, that had poisoned 254 00:15:34.370 --> 00:15:38.820 his mind, that had brainwashed his mind, he decided he 255 00:15:38.860 --> 00:15:42.480 was going to do this criminal act, this terrorist act 256 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.779 against this family and this community. That's what we're up against. 257 00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:50.100 And that's happening, you know, at rates where we had, 258 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:52.200 you know, I mentioned Quebec City at the outset, then 259 00:15:52.220 --> 00:15:55.750 we had London, Ontario, which was actually the impetus for 260 00:15:55.769 --> 00:15:59.350 an Islamophobia summit and eventually the creation of the office 261 00:15:59.370 --> 00:15:59.929 that I held. 262 00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:02.480 Because we see that. 263 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:07.100 Islamophobia has become, at times, in our country, deadly. You know, 264 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.399 at one point, the highest number of Muslims killed in 265 00:16:10.600

--> 00:16:14.210 any G7 country. Sadly, I'm not sure if that number 266 00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:18.330 still holds true because we've now seen killing in San Diego, 267 00:16:18.590 --> 00:16:22.049 in the States. We've seen a man was murdered in 268 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:24.570 Belgium for trying to stand up for a Muslim woman 269 00:16:24.590 --> 00:16:29.200 who's being harassed. There's cases happening across Europe. So I'm 270 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:31.659 not sure if Canada still holds that distinction, but I 271 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:37.519 can tell you that those massacres, you know, have continued 272 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.320 to shape us to our core and reminds us. 273 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:41.179 Of what's at stake. 274 00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:44.250 That was a highlight from a new episode of The 275 00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:47.610 Week is Rover. Find the show and the award-winning investigative 276 00:16:47.649 --> 00:16:51.570 journalism and reporting of the Rover team at therover.ca or 277 00:16:51.649 --> 00:16:54.230 wherever you get your podcasts. Coming up next. 278 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.680 Broadcasting since 2026, EcoFactors is a podcast from the Atlantic 279 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:08.880 Wildlife Institute where the team sits down with people doing 280 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:12.299 the real work and the communities pushing back against development 281 00:17:12.339 --> 00:17:15.539 that doesn't make sense. Like on this episode, exploring the 282 00:17:15.579 --> 00:17:20.380 intersection of academia and environmental activism as Professor J.P. Sapinski 283 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.619 shares his journey from student to educator at the Université 284 00:17:23.660 --> 00:17:26.440 de Moncton where he studies the structures of corporate power 285 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:29.849 and its environmental implications. Now, here's the show. 286 00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:34.000 Welcome to Ecofactors, a podcast from the Atlantic Wildlife Institute 287 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.200 on Canada's East Coast. We sit down with people doing 288 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.289 the real work and the communities pushing back against development 289 00:17:40.349 --> 00:17:42.970 that doesn't make sense for us or those we share 290 00:17:43.029 --> 00:17:45.869 the environment with. We are united with our guests from 291 00:17:46.029 --> 00:17:49.990 everywhere in honest conversations about what it actually takes to 292 00:17:50.029 --> 00:17:51.710 protect the earth that we call home. 293 00:17:52.509 --> 00:17:54.269 Jean-Philippe, how are you today? 294 00:17:54.289 --> 00:17:57.369 I'm good, Lisa. Thanks for having me on the podcast. 295 00:17:57.750 --> 00:17:58.589 Thank you for coming. 296 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:03.180 It's actually when we first started the opposition against the 297 00:18:03.220 --> 00:18:07.099 gas plant. You were one of the first people that 298 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:12.690 I contacted before the coalition even existed.

Because you and 299 00:18:12.710 --> 00:18:17.069 I shared a media story, I think, with CBC. 300 00:18:18.210 --> 00:18:20.430 Yeah, yeah, that's true. I didn't remember that. 301 00:18:20.789 --> 00:18:24.380 Yeah, so now we're on screen again, but this time 302 00:18:24.390 --> 00:18:29.039 I'm making the questions. Yeah, so welcome to EcoFactors. We're 303 00:18:29.059 --> 00:18:31.279 a few episodes in now, but it's still early days. 304 00:18:31.299 --> 00:18:33.900 So thank you for trusting us to put your face. 305 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:34.880 Absolutely. 306 00:18:34.900 --> 00:18:36.539 This conversation up online. 307 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:39.579 This podcast is run by Atlantic Wildlife Institute. So we're 308 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:43.599 really grateful that we have this platform to share important voices. 309 00:18:44.519 --> 00:18:49.569 Speaking of important voices, you are in the academic field 310 00:18:49.849 --> 00:18:53.250 of teaching environmental studies at the University of Moncton or 311 00:18:53.269 --> 00:18:57.440 Université de Moncton. I realize that you work in French 312 00:18:57.500 --> 00:18:59.660 and that French is your first language. So I appreciate 313 00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:01.480 you doing this interview in. 314 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:02.599 English for me. 315 00:19:02.619 --> 00:19:03.900 It's a pleasure. 316 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:07.000 University of Moncton is on unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq 317 00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:09.200 First Nation. Can you tell us a little bit about 318 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.420 how you arrived into this particular role? 319 00:19:14.869 --> 00:19:19.009 Yeah, that's a good question. Try not to be too long, 320 00:19:19.029 --> 00:19:24.109 not to bore people. But my mom was an academic, academic. 321 00:19:24.869 --> 00:19:28.670 She was a professor of public health and a doctor, 322 00:19:29.170 --> 00:19:33.559 and she got me my first jobs in her department. 323 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:38.980 I was 17, and I had never left universities since then. 324 00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:44.109 I've been through four different universities, University of Montreal, University 325 00:19:44.130 --> 00:19:47.509 of Victoria, University of Oregon, and now University of Moncton. 326 00:19:48.049 --> 00:19:51.039 I was lucky enough to land a really good position 327 00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:54.240 here at UMontan. And I'm very happy now because it 328 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.250 allows me to use the position to do what I'm 329 00:19:57.269 --> 00:20:00.809 really interested in doing, studying the structures of corporate power 330 00:20:01.049 --> 00:20:04.789 and how they impact our environment and our climate. and 331 00:20:04.809 --> 00:20:07.029 also be able to about to teach about these topics. 332 00:20:07.829 --> 00:20:12.519 Can you explain what that means? The study of the 333 00:20:12.579 --> 00:20:13.839 structure of corporate power? 334 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.680 Well, I work, so I was trained as an anthropologist 335 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.339 and sociologist. It's, um, A subfield of sociology is economic sociology. 336 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:28.099 And part of economic sociology looks at, among many other things, 337 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:33.740 looks at institutions. So the different organizations that constitute societies 338 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.109 in which people organize, where people work. You can think 339 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:42.349 of the university system as an institution made up of 340 00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:46.250 all the individual universities. We have the health system, the 341 00:20:46.289 --> 00:20:50.339 education systems are different institutions. And one of these institutions 342 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:54.259 is the corporation or the corporate system as a whole, 343 00:20:54.759 --> 00:20:58.259 made up of all the corporations that exist in, say, Canada, 344 00:20:58.299 --> 00:21:00.859 the United States, or in the world. So that's the 345 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:04.400 institution I'm most interested in, the corporation as a system 346 00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:09.299 of power through which rich people get richer. 347 00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:13.680 It's interesting that you mention anthropology, like the study of anthropology. 348 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.380 I did a little bit of anthropology when I was 349 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.450 doing my international development degree. And one of the courses 350 00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:22.720 I did was an ethnography course. It's like the in-depth 351 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:26.279 study of something, a culture that is foreign to you 352 00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:28.940 as the writer. And you could, you know, you could 353 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.099 be like, you could go to Africa and into the 354 00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:34.700 Congo and study the culture there, which would be very 355 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:40.089 different from Riverview, New Brunswick, where I grew up. The interesting, 356 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:45.349 my link back to this is the anthropology or ethnography 357 00:21:45.869 --> 00:21:50.609 understanding of the corporate structure and the rich getting richer 358 00:21:50.730 --> 00:21:54.369 is so far from where we are, I feel, as 359 00:21:54.430 --> 00:21:57.930 a grassroots kind of people on the ground fighting big 360 00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:01.140 oil and gas and fighting the injustices of that high 361 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:03.859 corporate structure. And I woke up this morning thinking like, 362 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.259 can I put myself into like an empathetic position to 363 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.839 understand where they're at? Like, do they have children? Do 364 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.200 they have grandchildren? What's the ethnography look like if you're 365 00:22:16.930 --> 00:22:20.630 writing about the, I won't go as far as the 366 00:22:20.650 --> 00:22:23.750 Trump world, but somewhere

along that line of a culture 367 00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:26.750 we don't understand, but we have to write somehow. 368 00:22:26.769 --> 00:22:29.170 That's a very interesting question. Well, I must say, uh, 369 00:22:29.549 --> 00:22:32.269 I never did, uh, ethnography myself. I was doing my 370 00:22:32.309 --> 00:22:35.289 master's and, uh, well, they discouraged doing field work for 371 00:22:35.309 --> 00:22:37.829 a master's because it's too complicated. And I wanted to 372 00:22:37.910 --> 00:22:41.670 study the Zaptista movement that was, um, at its beginnings, uh, 373 00:22:41.690 --> 00:22:44.990 in Mexico. Um, Well, it was a few years in, 374 00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:48.769 I was doing that in 2000. Right at that moment, 375 00:22:48.829 --> 00:22:50.390 I was thinking, oh, am I going to go there? 376 00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:52.759 And so on, the Mexican government sent the army and 377 00:22:52.779 --> 00:22:55.119 it was impossible to go there. So I ended up 378 00:22:55.180 --> 00:22:59.819 studying texts instead. But there's such a thing as the 379 00:22:59.859 --> 00:23:03.440 anthropology of the elite. And I had a professor who 380 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:06.460 was doing that, looking at the Italian elite around the Vatican, 381 00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:10.319 among others. There's people doing that, just getting into these 382 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:13.269 high level circles and trying to understand how people think. 383 00:23:14.140 --> 00:23:17.160 There are sociologists who did that as well, got interviews 384 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:20.079 with corporate heads. So a lot of the literature on 385 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.559 corporate power actually is based on interviews with people in 386 00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:26.789 these positions and trying to get a window on how 387 00:23:26.829 --> 00:23:29.730 they think, how they organize, why they do this or that. 388 00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:33.369 Because one of the questions, yeah, you said rightly, and 389 00:23:33.390 --> 00:23:35.910 that's something I wonder, do they have kids? Do they 390 00:23:35.930 --> 00:23:39.470 understand what the climate crisis is? What are the constraints 391 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.440 that they have to deal with? And how do they 392 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.259 personally deal I do that. And then as a group, 393 00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:48.700 these are really interesting questions. I don't really have answers 394 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:54.680 to them, except that from a sociological perspective, humans exist 395 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:59.589 within institutions and within the broader structures of societies. And 396 00:23:59.710 --> 00:24:05.950 so these people, the individual capitalists, rich people, elite, high-level politicians, 397 00:24:06.170 --> 00:24:08.650 you name it, they're part of these institutions. And so 398 00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:10.779 there's things that they can do and there's things that 399 00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.740 they can't

do. So if you take, for example, Paul Polman, 400 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:19.690 he's a Dutch corporate head. He was CEO of the 401 00:24:19.730 --> 00:24:23.849 multinational Unilever. They make all the soaps, have the soaps 402 00:24:23.869 --> 00:24:25.670 you have in your bathroom, I'm sure, a bunch of 403 00:24:25.769 --> 00:24:26.670 foods and so on. 404 00:24:26.690 --> 00:24:27.019 He was. 405 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:33.339 really wanting to give a more environmentally friendly direction to 406 00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:36.380 the corporation. And one big thing he wanted to do 407 00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:40.670 was get rid of quarterly reports to shareholders so that 408 00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:42.769 he could focus more on long-term and not just the 409 00:24:42.809 --> 00:24:46.569 next quarter's profits. Shareholders pushed back against it and they 410 00:24:46.710 --> 00:24:50.069 kept things going business as usual. That's an example of 411 00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:53.990 one person who I think probably had good intentions but 412 00:24:54.210 --> 00:24:58.839 was within that structure that limited his range of action 413 00:24:58.970 --> 00:25:01.880 and what he could possibly do. So it makes you 414 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:05.200 think of if you want to change things from the inside, well, 415 00:25:05.220 --> 00:25:07.759 you're within the institution and you have to understand how 416 00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:11.579 it works to understand what levers you can activate and 417 00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.960 how you can change the institution from the position you're in. 418 00:25:15.509 --> 00:25:19.630 That's something that I learned doing sociology and that I'm 419 00:25:19.829 --> 00:25:24.210 interested in teaching people to empower people and also to 420 00:25:24.250 --> 00:25:26.890 reflect on my own position within academia. What can I 421 00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:30.519 do within academia to help things move in a good 422 00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:33.200 direction towards a more just society? 423 00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:37.019 So do you feel like academia is a good footing 424 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:40.759 for fighting something like the Riggs plant and tantrum hour? 425 00:25:41.299 --> 00:25:43.099 I mean, do you feel like the textbooks are coming 426 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:44.119 to life right now? 427 00:25:46.450 --> 00:25:50.299 Some of them, some of them are actually. One of 428 00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:56.380 the most important textbooks, and that's Sociology 101. 429 00:25:56.380 --> 00:25:57.019 It's C. 430 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:03.049 Wright Mills' Sociological Imagination, where like all the undergrads in 431 00:26:03.089 --> 00:26:08.410 sociology get to read that. And his message is what 432 00:26:08.430 --> 00:26:12.759 the sociological imagination is, it's the capacity of individual people 433 00:26:13.609 --> 00:26:17.710 to make sense of the broad historical movements that they 434 00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:22.250 live through and understand where their personal troubles are coming from. 435 00:26:22.269 --> 00:26:25.619 That they're not only because they're, you know, oftentimes poor 436 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:29.299 people get blamed as they're lazy, they don't work enough, 437 00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:31.599 they made bad decisions, blah, blah, blah. If you look 438 00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:35.619 at it sociologically through the sociological imagination, you can see 439 00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:39.869 where people are at. And people in these situations can 440 00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:43.039 understand It's not because they're lazy. They work two, three jobs, 441 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:47.400 but minimum wage makes it that they can't make ends 442 00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:51.160 meet nonetheless. And so understand where this comes from. Why 443 00:26:51.180 --> 00:26:54.509 is minimum wage so low? Why do corporations need a 444 00:26:54.549 --> 00:26:56.890 low minimum wage? So that they don't have to pay 445 00:26:56.910 --> 00:27:00.130 their workers too much and they can provide profits and 446 00:27:00.170 --> 00:27:02.680 dividends for their shareholders and so on. So understand this. 447 00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:07.750 understand where we stand within these social institutions and structures. 448 00:27:08.309 --> 00:27:11.809 So how do you feel like academia is placed? What 449 00:27:11.890 --> 00:27:16.220 kind of advantages do you have by being in academia? 450 00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:18.559 I want to obviously touch on the letter that recently 451 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.019 came out, so you could maybe talk about that collaboration 452 00:27:22.059 --> 00:27:22.400 as well. 453 00:27:22.619 --> 00:27:22.789 Yeah. 454 00:27:23.309 --> 00:27:28.569 Well, yeah, that's really important because oftentimes people outside academia, 455 00:27:28.789 --> 00:27:32.059 there's a stereotype of the ivory tower. People do their 456 00:27:32.140 --> 00:27:34.779 little research and nobody knows about it except a circle 457 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.980 of five or six experts who can understand them. That's 458 00:27:38.309 --> 00:27:41.029 true in some fields. There's usually more people in that 459 00:27:41.210 --> 00:27:45.049 who can understand what we're doing. What academia does, it 460 00:27:45.109 --> 00:27:49.279 does have a bunch of constraints, especially in larger, more 461 00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:57.519 high prestige universities. For example, people are pushed to publish 462 00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:01.920 a lot, to get research funding for the university because 463 00:28:01.940 --> 00:28:05.160 that's part of their income as well. And their boards 464 00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:10.950 are staffed with corporate representatives and their allies, so prestigious lawyers, accountants. 465 00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:16.880 and the like. Corporate donors have a power to pressure 466 00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:22.460 universities in various ways. They can withdraw donations, for example.

467 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.880 They know people on the boards, the presidents. They're part 468 00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:30.309 of the same circles. They think a little bit the 469 00:28:30.349 --> 00:28:37.359 same way. They see universities as businesses that that are 470 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.619 supposed to provide value for governments and the public and 471 00:28:41.930 --> 00:28:45.630 everybody else, especially corporations. So you have these sets of constraints. 472 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:48.750 I'm lucky I'm at a small non-corporate university here. The 473 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:52.869 board is mostly regular people, small business people from Frankfurt, 474 00:28:52.890 --> 00:28:55.569 New Brunswick. And so I don't have all these pressures. 475 00:28:55.809 --> 00:28:59.039 So it gives me a really good space of freedom 476 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:03.329 where I can... pursue the research I'm interested in. We 477 00:29:03.349 --> 00:29:05.960 have academic freedom, so we're allowed to do whatever research 478 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:09.299 we think is important, but also take on initiatives like 479 00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:14.099 getting involved around the RIGS project and organizing other academics 480 00:29:14.299 --> 00:29:18.240 to voice their opposition to that project. Part of our 481 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.369 work as academics is to get involved in the community. 482 00:29:22.569 --> 00:29:26.990 It's not as prestigious on the CV as high-ranking journal 483 00:29:27.130 --> 00:29:30.279 publications and so on, but We have part of our 484 00:29:30.319 --> 00:29:32.680 time that we're supposed to do that, actually. We're involved 485 00:29:32.789 --> 00:29:36.910 in various committees inside the university, but also elsewhere in 486 00:29:37.130 --> 00:29:40.329 the community. And so that kind of work fits. and 487 00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:43.029 I checked with my dean, and he said, yes, that's 488 00:29:43.109 --> 00:29:47.190 absolutely part of the service component of your job, to 489 00:29:47.230 --> 00:29:52.019 provide your expertise to groups who are addressing different issues. 490 00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:54.319 So that's why I'm very happy to work with the 491 00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:57.819 coalition and provide any help I can and take on 492 00:29:57.859 --> 00:29:58.680 different initiatives. 493 00:30:01.690 --> 00:30:04.329 There's a highlight from a new episode of Eco Factors. 494 00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:08.599 Find it at harbingermedianetwork.com or wherever you get your podcasts. 495 00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:11.680 You're listening to Harbinger Showcase on your local campus and 496 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:15.539 community radio station. I'm Harbinger Director Andre Goulet in Montreal. 497 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:27.089 Coming up next... Broadcasting since 2024, the Observation Deck presents 498 00:30:27.230 --> 00:30:31.779 criticism and analysis for the algorithmically optimized era, spanning the 499 00:30:31.940

--> 00:30:35.549 majorly trivial to the dubiously significant in a podcast about 500 00:30:35.589 --> 00:30:40.029 internet and pop culture, hosted by Rosa Adario and Saskia Kowalczuk, 501 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:43.069 with production by Nelson Graves. On this highlight from a 502 00:30:43.109 --> 00:30:47.799 recent episode, New Feeling Music Journalism Co-op co-founder and outgoing 503 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.759 Maisonneuve Magazine editor and musician, Rosie Long-Decter joins the show 504 00:30:51.859 --> 00:30:56.000 to explain why, from heated rivalry to mile-end kicks, to 505 00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:59.680 Katy Perry dating Justin Trudeau, 2026 has been the year 506 00:30:59.900 --> 00:31:03.329 of Canada Down. Now, here's Rosa and Saskia. 507 00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:07.119 Hi, Rosa. 508 00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:08.000 Hi, Saskia. 509 00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:10.240 Welcome back to The Observation Deck. 510 00:31:10.460 --> 00:31:13.660 The podcast where we cover everything from the majorly trivial 511 00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:15.200 to the dubiously significant. 512 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.349 Hell yes. We're back today in the studio with our 513 00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:20.029 first guest of season three. 514 00:31:20.049 --> 00:31:20.630 Yay. 515 00:31:21.390 --> 00:31:21.460 Yay. 516 00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:24.250 Welcome, Rosie. Hi, Saskia. 517 00:31:24.289 --> 00:31:24.769 Hi, Rosa. 518 00:31:24.789 --> 00:31:25.890 Hi, Rosie. 519 00:31:26.490 --> 00:31:29.970 My two roses. Yeah, my two sweet flowers. 520 00:31:29.990 --> 00:31:30.529 Almost a bouquet. 521 00:31:30.549 --> 00:31:33.440 Almost. How many flowers for a bouquet would you say? 522 00:31:33.460 --> 00:31:33.980 Poor man's bouquet. 523 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:34.099 Okay. 524 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:35.660 Budget bouquet. 525 00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:36.440 Budget bouquet. 526 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:38.269 Kind of the vibes of like when a guy comes 527 00:31:38.329 --> 00:31:39.390 up to you on the street and is like a 528 00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:42.099 rose for $ 10 or whatever. 529 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:42.700 That's kind of. 530 00:31:43.339 --> 00:31:44.180 were the two. 531 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:44.759 And why not? 532 00:31:44.900 --> 00:31:45.539 I don't know where I was going. 533 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:47.759 I mean, I think you're, I think you're much greater 534 00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:51.079 quality than a street sell sold rose, but yeah. 535 00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:53.539 So Rosie, thank you for joining us today. 536 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:59.049 You are a journalist, a musician, a longtime schoolmate and 537 00:31:59.130 --> 00:32:00.170 friend of mine. 538 00:32:00.190 --> 00:32:00.829 We go way back. 539 00:32:00.930 --> 00:32:02.089 We go way back. 540 00:32:02.789 --> 00:32:03.069 Yeah. 541 00:32:03.390 --> 00:32:06.009 Like literally maybe 2000 something, 2000, 2000. We're 2000 and 542 00:32:06.069 --> 00:32:06.559 late with it. 543 00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:07.259 Yeah, that's right. 544 00:32:10.819 --> 00:32:11.920 Even 2000 and early. 545 00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:14.079 Exactly. 546 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:14.779 Exactly. 547 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:18.140 And yeah, we're really glad to have you here today. 548 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.480 Thrilled to be here. Yeah. 549 00:32:20.619 --> 00:32:22.099 I mean, I think this kind of came, the idea 550 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.599 to have you on was because you, well, you work 551 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:27.920 with Maisonneuve or yeah, you've recently. 552 00:32:28.369 --> 00:32:32.910 I'm the outgoing editor of Amazon F Magazine, local independent 553 00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:33.750 Montreal magazine. 554 00:32:33.869 --> 00:32:34.450 Hell yes. 555 00:32:34.569 --> 00:32:35.029 Hell yes. 556 00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:35.710 We love it. 557 00:32:35.910 --> 00:32:38.559 And you guys just had your 100th issue this summer. 558 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.039 We attended the launch or actually Nelson didn't come in 559 00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:45.240 the end, but that's okay. I attended your launch and 560 00:32:45.269 --> 00:32:47.869 it was really awesome. And I feel like It does 561 00:32:47.890 --> 00:32:50.049 kind of fit into what we were talking about today, 562 00:32:50.109 --> 00:32:53.109 like the public issue, the sort of the changing role 563 00:32:53.130 --> 00:32:56.069 of the public service in Canada. And yeah, we kind 564 00:32:56.089 --> 00:32:57.490 of wanted to have you on because I kind of 565 00:32:57.509 --> 00:32:59.589 felt like this was a good fit. 566 00:32:59.750 --> 00:32:59.970 I know. 567 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:03.059 I mean, I love talking about Canada, love talking CanCon. 568 00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:07.240 Yeah, we at Maisonneuve for our 100th issue this summer 569 00:33:07.259 --> 00:33:10.259 themed it around Canada. the public sector and the public 570 00:33:10.299 --> 00:33:14.519 sphere in Canada and how there are federal government cuts 571 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:17.000 being mandated kind of across government departments. 572 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:17.779 Except defense. 573 00:33:19.059 --> 00:33:19.640 Not true. 574 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:20.359 Classic. 575 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:24.750 And we wanted to look at kind of the relationship 576 00:33:24.789 --> 00:33:29.730 between public policies and cuts and how those impact people's 577 00:33:29.769 --> 00:33:32.829 individual lives and kind of lived experiences. So we had 578 00:33:32.849 --> 00:33:36.990 stories on healthcare and stories on the arts. stories on 579 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:40.609 refugee experiences. So yeah, it was really great to. 580 00:33:40.609 --> 00:33:42.950 Be able to put that kind of together and out 581 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:44.359 into the world. Awesome. 582 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:45.140 Well, yeah. 583 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.319 And so We, as within the sort of progressive Montreal 584 00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:53.119 media sphere, we wanted to, as

like associates with, with 585 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:55.690 Harbinger and with Unrigged, we thought it was like a natural, 586 00:33:56.049 --> 00:33:58.410 a natural thing to have you on. So yeah, we 587 00:33:58.470 --> 00:34:01.750 really encourage our listeners, if you haven't read Maisonneuve before, 588 00:34:02.230 --> 00:34:03.009 to check it out. 589 00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:03.839 Prince Not Dead. 590 00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:04.299 Yeah. 591 00:34:04.410 --> 00:34:05.160 Prince Not Dead. 592 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:06.079 It's coming back actually. 593 00:34:06.259 --> 00:34:06.440 Yeah. 594 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:07.039 I think so too. 595 00:34:07.180 --> 00:34:07.319 Yeah. 596 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:08.239 I agree with that. 597 00:34:08.260 --> 00:34:09.000 Yeah. Yeah. 598 00:34:09.659 --> 00:34:09.780 Yeah. 599 00:34:10.070 --> 00:34:10.269 I do. 600 00:34:10.289 --> 00:34:12.369 No, you do love print. 601 00:34:12.510 --> 00:34:13.150 I do love print. 602 00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:16.670 I mean, you're doing a whole master's pretty much dedicated 603 00:34:16.710 --> 00:34:18.409 to your love of information and print. 604 00:34:18.789 --> 00:34:21.750 Yeah, although I'm beginning to learn that it's really not 605 00:34:21.769 --> 00:34:24.469 that much about print. 606 00:34:24.630 --> 00:34:24.789 Oh. 607 00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:26.909 It's about the internet. It's about data. 608 00:34:27.449 --> 00:34:31.210 Really, first couple weeks, big question, what is data? 609 00:34:31.309 --> 00:34:34.199 What is information? That's really good. 610 00:34:34.389 --> 00:34:35.079 And do you have the answer? 611 00:34:36.460 --> 00:34:43.199 Yeah. Information is like data... synthesized into uh like a 612 00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:44.420 clear takeaway kind of. 613 00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:46.900 Right because like data is just like is can be 614 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:50.039 like raw and yeah it's raw it's unrefined it's like 615 00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:54.949 uh very quantitative and then information is what you glean 616 00:34:55.010 --> 00:34:57.090 from data and then if you really want to go 617 00:34:57.210 --> 00:35:00.610 into it up then from information you get knowledge and 618 00:35:00.630 --> 00:35:01.250 from knowledge you. 619 00:35:01.179 --> 00:35:05.619 Get wisdom whoa yeah It's funny because that's the pyramid 620 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.449 is like data, information, knowledge, wisdom. And every single one 621 00:35:08.469 --> 00:35:10.150 of my profs put it up on the board and said, 622 00:35:10.769 --> 00:35:11.849 all my colleagues are going to show you this. 623 00:35:12.070 --> 00:35:12.949 I hate this pyramid. 624 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:14.760 And they all showed it to us. 625 00:35:15.090 --> 00:35:16.820 Wait, so they're all my loser colleagues are going to 626 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:17.800 show you this. 627 00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:19.119 They're all beholden to the. 628 00:35:19.219 --> 00:35:21.159 To the pyramid that they hate, that they think everybody 629 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:21.639 else loves. 630 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:21.920 Oh my God. 631 00:35:21.940 --> 00:35:22.380 That's so funny. 632 00:35:22.579 --> 00:35:24.219 Cause it's like, what do you think the comms version 633 00:35:24.260 --> 00:35:26.039 of that is like, is that like the medium is 634 00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:28.940 the message? What's our, what's our, cause like Rosie, Rosie 635 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:30.980 and I did the masters together, but then of course, 636 00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:32.199 Rose and I did our undergrad together. 637 00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:34.699 So we're all Concordia communications girlies at the end of 638 00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:35.099 the day. 639 00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:35.420 Yeah. 640 00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:36.420 Commies. 641 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:36.699 Yeah. 642 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:38.960 And I feel like that, yeah, maybe it's like, I 643 00:35:38.980 --> 00:35:41.420 don't know what the truism for comms is, I feel like. 644 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.340 I thought The Medium is the Message was going to 645 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.639 loom larger than it did. I feel like that actually 646 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:46.360 wasn't as. 647 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.030 No. Maybe it was more like Sissy Napalm Peep. 648 00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:49.550 Yeah, yeah. 649 00:35:49.610 --> 00:35:50.809 Or it was the work of art in the age 650 00:35:50.829 --> 00:35:51.909 of mechanical reproducibility. 651 00:35:52.010 --> 00:35:54.070 Yeah, that is the heavy hitter, I would say. 652 00:35:54.090 --> 00:35:54.880 Yeah, I would say so too. 653 00:35:54.889 --> 00:35:58.789 And it bars, like it goes harder. Or maybe like Foucault, 654 00:35:58.889 --> 00:36:01.849 something Foucault. They like, the comms scholars love to make 655 00:36:01.869 --> 00:36:04.230 you think that they're not really into philosophy, but. 656 00:36:04.550 --> 00:36:04.869 They are. 657 00:36:05.050 --> 00:36:06.690 But they really are. They really are. 658 00:36:06.710 --> 00:36:08.380 They really are. They love it. 659 00:36:08.780 --> 00:36:10.010 Okay, Rosa, I want to hear.... 660 00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.360 You did some good teasing here in the dark. What 661 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.739 is your version of spicy tuna crispy rice? 662 00:36:15.860 --> 00:36:17.039 Okay. I was thinking about this because I made it 663 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:20.030 for lunch yesterday and I was like, wait, this is 664 00:36:20.090 --> 00:36:21.750 my version of a dish that I make all the 665 00:36:21.769 --> 00:36:24.190 time that is also rice-based and is very iterative and 666 00:36:24.210 --> 00:36:25.190 that I'm always improving upon. 667 00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:27.500 Rosie, if you don't know, this is like my hyper 668 00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:30.639 fixation meal is spicy tuna crispy rice. And it's something 669 00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:33.440 that gets brought up. I'm always iterating on. And so 670

00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:36.539 the fact that Rosie, Rosa has, there you go. I 671 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:38.059 knew I was going to do it sooner or later. 672 00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:39.530 And so got it right off the top. 673 00:36:39.820 --> 00:36:40.219 Take a shot. 674 00:36:41.809 --> 00:36:42.210 Literally. 675 00:36:42.929 --> 00:36:45.170 Rosa has sort of done her own. 676 00:36:45.190 --> 00:36:46.090 Okay. 677 00:36:46.130 --> 00:36:50.699 So initially it was just rice and I will be 678 00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.590 the first to say I'm not that good at making rice. 679 00:36:52.630 --> 00:36:54.929 Like I don't have a rice cooker. We have an 680 00:36:54.969 --> 00:36:56.900 instant pot. Don't really know how to use it. 681 00:36:56.949 --> 00:36:59.070 Don't want to learn. There's a rice setting on it. 682 00:36:59.329 --> 00:36:59.869 I've heard this. 683 00:36:59.929 --> 00:37:00.210 Yeah. 684 00:37:00.369 --> 00:37:02.539 Not interested. No, just do it in a pot. 685 00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:08.300 So initially it was rice and then eggs fried in 686 00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:11.119 soy sauce and butter that I would have over the rice. 687 00:37:11.300 --> 00:37:13.110 And it was like, that was like, it's, it's truest, 688 00:37:13.170 --> 00:37:13.650 rawest form. 689 00:37:14.730 --> 00:37:17.349 Lately, what it is, is rice that I'm cooking in butter. 690 00:37:17.369 --> 00:37:18.650 So it's like butter heavy. 691 00:37:18.710 --> 00:37:22.369 So I'm like sauteing the grains in butter, getting them 692 00:37:22.409 --> 00:37:24.969 a little glossy, putting the water in. So it's like quite, 693 00:37:25.170 --> 00:37:28.159 the fat is right in there with it. And then 694 00:37:28.420 --> 00:37:31.980 whatever vegetables I have. So like yesterday I did like 695 00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:34.099 a little saute of mushrooms and onions and garlic, and 696 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.690 then I steamed some broccoli. And then My eggs that 697 00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:40.969 I fry in soy sauce and butter. And then all 698 00:37:40.989 --> 00:37:45.480 of that kind of on a plate, bowl plate, plate, pole, 699 00:37:45.619 --> 00:37:47.840 whatever you call those. And then on top I'm doing 700 00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:50.440 for a cocky, I'm doing sesame seeds and I'm doing 701 00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:51.409 bonito flakes. 702 00:37:51.610 --> 00:37:52.150 Ooh. 703 00:37:52.710 --> 00:37:53.849 And I call it my big pile of bull * 704 00:37:53.809 --> 00:37:57.570 * * *. Um, but it's, it's quite delicious, I 705 00:37:57.590 --> 00:37:59.190 will say. And it's the kind of thing where you 706 00:37:59.230 --> 00:38:00.610 can be putting anything in there. Like, I feel like 707 00:38:00.650 --> 00:38:03.170 avocado would be good. I think cucumber would be good. 708 00:38:03.210 --> 00:38:05.750 I think like a protein, protein of any kind would 709 00:38:05.789 --> 00:38:06.590 be good in there. 710 00:38:06.650 --> 00:38:07.369 That's not the egg. 711 00:38:07.969 --> 00:38:08.800 No, that's so yummy. 712 00:38:08.909 --> 00:38:11.320 I really with that because I think we talked about 713 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:13.260 this earlier, maybe on our first episode of the pod, 714 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.719 but I read Butter by Asako Yuzuki. 715 00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:15.809 Yes. 716 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:17.179 This summer. 717 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:18.360 I just borrowed Nelson's copy. 718 00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:19.719 Oh, there you go. 719 00:38:20.139 --> 00:38:25.820 And it is a Japanese novel that really focuses on cuisine, culinary, culinary, cooking. 720 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:29.690 But it really goes into the magic of butter. 721 00:38:29.710 --> 00:38:29.780 Yes. 722 00:38:30.730 --> 00:38:32.210 And then my book club, we did it for book 723 00:38:32.230 --> 00:38:34.670 club and then we met this past, last week and 724 00:38:34.710 --> 00:38:36.650 we did one of the dishes from it, which was 725 00:38:36.690 --> 00:38:40.889 just really nice French butter with rice and soy sauce. 726 00:38:41.150 --> 00:38:41.369 Yes. 727 00:38:41.409 --> 00:38:42.820 And it is so good. 728 00:38:43.449 --> 00:38:43.860 Good. 729 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:44.409 Yeah. 730 00:38:44.469 --> 00:38:48.500 So yummy. So indulgent. And like that combination is so, 731 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:49.079 so good. 732 00:38:49.099 --> 00:38:50.760 That is how I feel where I was like the 733 00:38:50.780 --> 00:38:52.260 first time I made it, I was putting butter and 734 00:38:52.300 --> 00:38:53.559 soy sauce in a pan and I was cracking my 735 00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:54.039 eggs into it. 736 00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:56.639 And I was like, the fuck am I doing? I 737 00:38:56.659 --> 00:38:59.599 was just looking at my, at my pan being like, God, 738 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.639 what is this? But actually it's like so much greater 739 00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:02.900 than the sum of its parts, the butter and the 740 00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:03.360 soy sauce. 741 00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:03.639 Yeah. 742 00:39:03.659 --> 00:39:05.579 You were really do something. You were following your, you 743 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:06.699 were following your instincts. 744 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:08.559 I think I, it was like, you know, when like 745 00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:11.030 the New York times posts a recipe, that's like, It's 746 00:39:11.050 --> 00:39:13.159 like soy sauce, eggs, and then it's like three ingredients. 747 00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:15.219 And you're like, who needed a recipe? 748 00:39:15.260 --> 00:39:16.679 Who needed a recipe? Well, I mean, I guess me. 749 00:39:17.980 --> 00:39:20.300 But I would really recommend putting a bunch of bullshit 750 00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:21.320 in a bowl. Yeah. 751 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:23.280 If soy butter eggs are included. 752 00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:26.469 I'm going to try that. It's really yummy. So yeah, 753 00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:27.190 we are talking. 754 00:39:27.250 --> 00:39:29.230

I mean, I think heated rivalry is going to take 755 00:39:29.269 --> 00:39:33.269 a real center sort of role in this discussion. But 756 00:39:33.409 --> 00:39:37.750 more generally, I think like this heated rivalries popularization this 757 00:39:37.789 --> 00:39:40.340 year has kind of sensitized. I think a lot of 758 00:39:40.420 --> 00:39:43.949 us as Canadians and as critical media consumers to like 759 00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:47.969 the changing role of CanCon on the global stage. And 760 00:39:48.050 --> 00:39:50.090 that was sort of the grain of the idea of 761 00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:52.920 what we wanted to like talk about on this episode. 762 00:39:52.940 --> 00:39:56.639 Yeah, I think like maybe heated rivalry being like the 763 00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:59.639 pinnacle of like a lot of things coming together at 764 00:39:59.659 --> 00:40:02.260 like the right moment of like. My line kicks coming 765 00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:05.599 out and like people not in Canada understanding like Montreal 766 00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:08.260 sleaze in like 2011, but also maybe being like, wait, 767 00:40:08.289 --> 00:40:09.769 that city kind of seems like it has a vibe. 768 00:40:10.429 --> 00:40:14.469 And Nirvana, the man, the show, the movie, which also 769 00:40:15.130 --> 00:40:18.670 like very cornerstone of Canadian content, but also I think 770 00:40:18.989 --> 00:40:22.030 reached a global stage and heated rivalry and kind of like, 771 00:40:22.110 --> 00:40:24.670 then there are these weird little like microcosm moments of 772 00:40:24.690 --> 00:40:27.320 like Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry. And then like people 773 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.239 kind of falling all over themselves for Justin Trudeau, which 774 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.639 is kind of like, that's how you know someone's not Canadian. 775 00:40:33.489 --> 00:40:37.989 No true Canadian would be like thirsting after Justin Trudeau. 776 00:40:38.150 --> 00:40:40.570 Are people thirsting after Justin Trudeau? I think because he's 777 00:40:40.590 --> 00:40:41.210 dating Katy Perry. 778 00:40:41.269 --> 00:40:44.329 I think those pictures of them at Coachella with him 779 00:40:44.369 --> 00:40:46.650 in like the backward hat and like the t-shirt, like 780 00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:47.800 people were legitimately. 781 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:49.659 I think people are like, wait, the. 782 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:52.159 Former prime minister of Canada is so sexy. 783 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.219 Like we're relitigating 2015 level discourse. But it's like, and 784 00:40:57.260 --> 00:40:59.340 this is, I think what's interesting is it's like, basically 785 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.590 what we're talking about is like, Canada as niche and 786 00:41:02.619 --> 00:41:07.110 Canada going mainstream somehow this year, i.e. basically just appealing 787 00:41:07.150 --> 00:41:09.909 to Americans, but I think also globally. But I think 788 00:41:09.949 --> 00:41:13.090 this is like an interesting

moment for Canadians, for Americans 789 00:41:13.250 --> 00:41:17.409 to have reevaluated the contributions Canadians have to culture and 790 00:41:17.530 --> 00:41:18.769 its relevance to them. 791 00:41:18.829 --> 00:41:20.929 And I think also like dovetailing off of that, a 792 00:41:20.949 --> 00:41:23.409 lot of Canadians not wanting to go to the U.S. 793 00:41:23.429 --> 00:41:26.360 anymore and not wanting to spend money in the U.S. anymore. And, like, 794 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.659 then I saw a TikTok last night of, like– it was, like, 795 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.940 a news story in, like, Washington state of, like, Americans being, like, 796 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.369 we just want you to know that, like, we don't– 797 00:41:34.500 --> 00:41:37.440 we're not all Trump supporters. And, like, we miss you. And, like, 798 00:41:37.460 --> 00:41:40.300 we miss Canadian visitors. And this, like, Canadian content creator being, like, 799 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:42.179 you miss our money. Like, you miss our business. 800 00:41:42.260 --> 00:41:45.639 And I think it is $ 3 billion if I'm– it 801 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:48.000 might be even higher than that. But the number of 802 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.219 money lost from the drop in tourism to the States. 803 00:41:51.500 --> 00:41:52.420 It's quite significant. 804 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:52.539 Yeah. 805 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:55.139 And, like, I think– yeah, like, maybe, like. 806 00:41:55.719 --> 00:41:57.360 If that number is wrong, we're going to like tape 807 00:41:57.429 --> 00:41:59.929 over it. I'm going to say the right number. 808 00:42:00.190 --> 00:42:01.789 Once it's like over a billion to me, I'm like 809 00:42:02.150 --> 00:42:02.769 any amount of money. 810 00:42:02.789 --> 00:42:03.070 It's fine. 811 00:42:03.110 --> 00:42:04.110 Yeah. 812 00:42:04.369 --> 00:42:07.329 To me, like Mark Carney is like not in as 813 00:42:07.349 --> 00:42:08.849 dope of a way, but you know how in love 814 00:42:08.949 --> 00:42:11.650 actually when Hugh Grant has that moment where he's like, 815 00:42:12.469 --> 00:42:14.809 meeting with the American president. And he's like, we're a 816 00:42:14.869 --> 00:42:17.210 small country, but we're like, like, it's like to me, 817 00:42:17.250 --> 00:42:18.320 only because we're a. 818 00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:20.039 Small country, we invented colonialism. 819 00:42:20.659 --> 00:42:22.280 It's like Mark Carney is kind of doing that where 820 00:42:22.300 --> 00:42:24.820 he's like, we're not like Justin Trudeau was much more 821 00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:30.119 willing to like patronize American imperialism. And Mark Carney is like, 822 00:42:30.139 --> 00:42:32.909 we're actually imperialists in our own way. 823 00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:34.829 We're willing to prove our own type of colonialism. 824 00:42:34.869 --> 00:42:37.869 And I think like his maybe like, quote unquote, standing 825 00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:42.070 up for like Canadian identity is kind of like, what 826 00:42:42.150 --> 00:42:43.889 kind of fuels the fire behind all these things. And 827 00:42:43.909 --> 00:42:46.409 then people seeing this Canadian media and being like, wait, 828 00:42:46.489 --> 00:42:48.510 it seems really dope. And like people who kind of 829 00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:52.050 just thought that it was like igloos and before are 830 00:42:52.090 --> 00:42:54.349 kind of like, wait, maybe like Canada's the place to be. 831 00:42:54.429 --> 00:42:56.610 And it's like, well, I mean, at the same time, 832 00:42:56.650 --> 00:42:59.050 it should be said also that Carney is like trying 833 00:42:59.090 --> 00:43:02.010 to meet NATO targets being set by Trump and still, 834 00:43:02.070 --> 00:43:03.869 and still like bowing down in certain ways. 835 00:43:04.010 --> 00:43:04.769 Yes, absolutely. 836 00:43:04.829 --> 00:43:07.789 I think like he's having this, like the, like the 837 00:43:07.909 --> 00:43:12.260 social clip farming moments of like trying to like prove, Canadian, 838 00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:15.579 quote unquote, independence and Canadian identity. But like he's still 839 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:17.920 like under the table, not even under the table, but 840 00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:21.739 he's still like fulfilling these these American goals that. 841 00:43:22.059 --> 00:43:25.860 To me, he's very this like archetype of like Canada's dad. Like, yes, 842 00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:30.889 he's like kind of. sort of not an imposing figure 843 00:43:30.909 --> 00:43:33.250 you know he loves down with webster yes. 844 00:43:33.239 --> 00:43:36.599 Let's talk about that like down with webster like they 845 00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:40.260 performed when he won um his seat in the election 846 00:43:40.300 --> 00:43:42.059 was that it and like he has like a down 847 00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:44.840 with webster hockey jersey yeah he. 848 00:43:44.780 --> 00:43:47.519 Knows all the words this is like the you know 849 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:48.860 canada's most famous. 850 00:43:48.659 --> 00:43:51.630 Rap rock group of 2010. 851 00:43:52.610 --> 00:43:55.690 Are back in a big way thanks to Mark Carney 852 00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:58.230 yeah no absolutely and like the way he's like you 853 00:43:58.250 --> 00:44:02.030 know he's going on vacation to like um to Newfoundland 854 00:44:02.170 --> 00:44:04.269 in the summer with his wife and being like we. 855 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:07.679 Love our country it's so beautiful and like he's meeting 856 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:10.860 Hudson Williams and at like the canadian media fund like 857 00:44:10.940 --> 00:44:13.940 fundraiser or whatever on like being like look we're so 858 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.400 proud of the gay smut that we like our government 859 00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:19.460 funds and it's like mild but it's like yeah like 860 00:44:19.539 --> 00:44:22.599 steady and but also sort of has this you know 861 00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:25.840 yeah power you know this

patriarchal power behind it at 862 00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:26.360 the end of the. 863 00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:28.929 Day definitely a patriarchal power you know what's also interesting 864 00:44:28.989 --> 00:44:31.389 is like him kind of yeah like to me really 865 00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:34.170 like kind of trying to showboat this like love for 866 00:44:34.230 --> 00:44:37.130 Canada this Canadian identity when it's like really you're so 867 00:44:37.190 --> 00:44:40.130 much more focused on like global policy and global politics 868 00:44:40.150 --> 00:44:41.989 than you are on like domestic Canadian like you could 869 00:44:42.010 --> 00:44:45.409 actually do to spend more time thinking about like Canadian policy. 870 00:44:45.690 --> 00:44:48.190 There's a highlight from a new episode of the observation 871 00:44:48.230 --> 00:44:51.610 deck find it at harbingermedianetwork.com or wherever you get your 872 00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:54.670 podcasts you listen to harbinger showcase on your local campus 873 00:44:54.750 --> 00:45:01.610 and community radio station and finally Broadcasting since 2014, Vancouver 874 00:45:01.619 --> 00:45:05.570 Bay's Seriously Wrong is a bi-weekly utopian leftist comedy podcast 875 00:45:05.750 --> 00:45:08.789 featuring hosts Aaron and Sean and guests in conversations exploring 876 00:45:08.829 --> 00:45:12.829 topics like rent strikes, the justice system, airplane food, and more. 877 00:45:13.030 --> 00:45:15.909 Like on this excerpt from a recent episode where the 878 00:45:15.929 --> 00:45:19.170 boys reminisce about the old days when things cost less 879 00:45:19.570 --> 00:45:22.570 and imagine a future where they cost nothing. Now, here's 880 00:45:22.590 --> 00:45:22.929 the show. 881 00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:28.170 Another day of retirement. Money keeps going on the account. 882 00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:31.820 Because of my pension and the year that I was born. 883 00:45:32.510 --> 00:45:33.329 Good s * * *. 884 00:45:33.230 --> 00:45:34.710 Hey, Grandpa. What are you doing? 885 00:45:34.989 --> 00:45:36.869 Oh, I'm just about to sit down and watch my 886 00:45:36.929 --> 00:45:38.170 favorite show. 887 00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:39.090 Price is Right? 888 00:45:39.190 --> 00:45:39.690 Nope. 889 00:45:39.769 --> 00:45:42.969 Seriously Wrong. The Seriously Wrong comedy podcast. 890 00:45:43.429 --> 00:45:43.929 Seriously Wrong. 891 00:45:43.949 --> 00:45:44.590 It's on TV now. 892 00:45:44.750 --> 00:45:47.389 Yeah, you love that show. Mm-hmm. You're saying? 893 00:45:47.409 --> 00:45:48.969 Keeps the aging brain strong. 894 00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:52.340 You remember when you were younger that their Patreon was 895 00:45:52.420 --> 00:45:55.900 only $ 6 a month? And that it still is now. 896 00:45:56.139 --> 00:45:58.300 It's the only price that hasn't gone up in this 897 00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:00.219 crazy world. I mean, look, what are you drinking there? 898 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.539 Soda pop? What'd you pay for

that? $ 4. 899 00:46:01.699 --> 00:46:07.920 95? It was a good deal. It was $ 3. 75. 900 00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:07.920 $ 3. 901 00:46:07.300 --> 00:46:07.610 75? 902 00:46:07.610 --> 00:46:08.070 Jesus. 903 00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:09.360 Not even five bucks. 904 00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:10.949 I remember when I used to be able to get 905 00:46:10.989 --> 00:46:13.409 a soda pop on the corner. 35 cents. 906 00:46:14.030 --> 00:46:15.010 Wow. Okay. 907 00:46:15.409 --> 00:46:18.510 What am I thinking? I remember getting it for 10 908 00:46:18.510 --> 00:46:20.769 cents when I was even younger. I mean, what's the 909 00:46:20.789 --> 00:46:23.230 most affordable soda pop you've ever gotten in your whole life? 910 00:46:23.670 --> 00:46:23.789 Uh. 911 00:46:24.510 --> 00:46:26.590 I don't know, $ 250? 912 00:46:26.210 --> 00:46:28.690 Jesus f * * * ing Christ. Oh, you know, 913 00:46:28.710 --> 00:46:30.820 that reminds me of my idea. You remember my idea? 914 00:46:30.929 --> 00:46:32.340 Do I remember your idea? 915 00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:32.570 No. 916 00:46:32.989 --> 00:46:36.119 Yeah, my idea. They should put a day at the 917 00:46:36.179 --> 00:46:38.980 store where all the seniors can come in and they 918 00:46:39.019 --> 00:46:41.659 can pay the prices that they remember just to honor 919 00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:42.699 their work. 920 00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.440 What if they remember the wrong price? 921 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.679 They can check the records or I don't know. I mean, 922 00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:50.159 someone has dementia and they say it's free or whatever. Like, 923 00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.639 I don't know, maybe honor their service by giving it 924 00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:54.730 to them for free. When I say service, I don't 925 00:46:54.750 --> 00:46:57.869 mean in the military necessarily, although often I'm thinking of 926 00:46:58.250 --> 00:47:01.739 service at desks, bus drivers, regular working people who put 927 00:47:01.780 --> 00:47:03.719 in their time. We should get a day where we 928 00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:05.500 go to the store and the prices are just like 929 00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:09.059 we used to remember. Wouldn't that be good, grandson? 930 00:47:09.619 --> 00:47:11.579 It wouldn't be good for me. I guess you could 931 00:47:11.619 --> 00:47:12.159 buy me things. 932 00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:15.880 Not everything's about you, kid. Not feeling honored right now. 933 00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:19.010 I honor you, grandpa. 934 00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:21.670 And someday some kids will come along to honor you, 935 00:47:21.710 --> 00:47:23.190 but I got to watch my show. I don't know, 936 00:47:23.210 --> 00:47:24.389 you want to pop a squat with me? 937 00:47:24.690 --> 00:47:27.880 Well, not if you say it like that, but yeah. Seriously, Ron? 938 00:47:28.030 --> 00:47:29.809 You're going to have to help me with these remotes. 939 00:47:29.889 --> 00:47:32.420 I don't want to hit the wrong one, and then 940 00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:34.480 I'm going to have to call your uncle over and everything. 941 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.300 Which one was it again to turn on the television? 942 00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:39.420 It's the on, that one. 943 00:47:39.460 --> 00:47:40.179 This one, okay. 944 00:47:40.199 --> 00:47:41.320 The on, yeah. 945 00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:42.780 And I'll just press this button, and. 946 00:47:47.489 --> 00:47:59.659 Seriously wrong, seriously wrong Seriously wrong, seriously wrong Seriously wrong 947 00:47:59.699 --> 00:48:07.550 Seriously wrong, seriously wrong Seriously wrong, seriously. 948 00:48:06.690 --> 00:48:14.320 Wrong Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Seriously Wrong Podcast. 949 00:48:14.340 --> 00:48:17.500 We are your humble hosts, Sean and Aaron. We hope 950 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:21.280 that your fridges are full, your prices are low, and 951 00:48:21.340 --> 00:48:25.219 everything on your shopping list is checked off. Welcome to 952 00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:26.940 the show. This voice is Sean, if this is your 953 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:27.719 first time listening. 954 00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:28.650 Yeah, my name is Aaron. 955 00:48:28.670 --> 00:48:29.530 If you're a long-time listener. 956 00:48:30.269 --> 00:48:31.030 You already know that. 957 00:48:31.690 --> 00:48:32.389 Yeah. 958 00:48:32.690 --> 00:48:36.230 We're a show. We've long supported groceries. We've long supported 959 00:48:36.289 --> 00:48:38.070 low prices for groceries. 960 00:48:38.090 --> 00:48:38.170 Yeah. 961 00:48:38.730 --> 00:48:40.969 We've taken a stand on that. We've never wavered. 962 00:48:41.190 --> 00:48:43.670 We've been steadfast in this, that prices should be low. 963 00:48:43.730 --> 00:48:46.090 The ideal price for groceries is zero dollars. 964 00:48:46.409 --> 00:48:46.610 Yeah. 965 00:48:47.070 --> 00:48:49.329 Yeah, a lot of celebrities, they have podcasts these days. 966 00:48:49.769 --> 00:48:52.179 You know, some actor or whatever. I saw Alec Baldwin 967 00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.739 has one. It's called Here's the Thing with Alec Baldwin. 968 00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:58.199 So if you want to hear Alec Baldwin's various takes, 969 00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:01.139 you can get in on that. But, you know, these celebrities, 970 00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:02.840 they don't really have their ear to the ground. They're 971 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:06.039 not going to the grocery store themselves in many cases. Sorry, Alec. 972 00:49:06.260 --> 00:49:06.480 Right. 973 00:49:06.849 --> 00:49:09.869 And as a Salt of the Earth podcast, we do 974 00:49:09.909 --> 00:49:10.929 buy our own groceries. 975 00:49:10.949 --> 00:49:14.920 I don't even blame the celebrities necessarily. You know, they 976 00:49:14.980 --> 00:49:17.889 got swept up in this thing and people are offering 977 00:49:17.909 --> 00:49:20.409 to go buy their groceries for them. It's not that 978 00:49:20.429 --> 00:49:22.429 they're evil, but they are out of touch. 979

00:49:22.820 --> 00:49:24.920 And I don't blame them for having podcasts either. You know, 980 00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:30.659 the industry's changed with streaming and these mega corps consolidating. 981 00:49:30.739 --> 00:49:33.139 They're more risk averse. There's less projects. 982 00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:36.079 When I see a celebrity reacting to their own TV 983 00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:39.989 show on YouTube, I think good for them. Why not 984 00:49:40.050 --> 00:49:41.409 cash in a little bit on that? 985 00:49:41.429 --> 00:49:45.809 I don't think good for them. I think like, oh, 986 00:49:46.530 --> 00:49:50.050 not in a judgmental way, but almost like a sympathetic way. Yeah, right. 987 00:49:50.369 --> 00:49:50.630 Wow. 988 00:49:51.010 --> 00:49:53.389 We're not taking care of our celebrities as a society. 989 00:49:56.510 --> 00:49:58.730 I see the views they're getting on that. And I'm 990 00:49:58.769 --> 00:50:02.070 not going to say who I'm referencing, but bless them. 991 00:50:02.300 --> 00:50:04.300 I think they made some good YouTube revenue there. 992 00:50:05.090 --> 00:50:05.590 Buy a lot of. 993 00:50:05.590 --> 00:50:08.409 Groceries with that. But yeah, I mean, let's be real. 994 00:50:08.510 --> 00:50:12.309 Right now, the prices are out of control at grocery stores, 995 00:50:12.369 --> 00:50:15.409 in my opinion. Have been for a while, and they're 996 00:50:15.449 --> 00:50:18.539 just more and more. You know, you start to relate 997 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:21.639 a lot more to the adults when you were a 998 00:50:21.699 --> 00:50:25.079 kid who just seemed obsessed with pointing out prices. And 999 00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:26.599 you're like, really? 1000 00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:26.920 $ 4. 1001 00:50:26.599 --> 00:50:29.389 50 for a box of granola bars? 1002 00:50:29.409 --> 00:50:29.489 Damn. 1003 00:50:30.110 --> 00:50:30.469 Damn. 1004 00:50:32.440 --> 00:50:34.139 This used to be, we've made jokes about this on 1005 00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:36.500 the show over time, but it's been very palpable my 1006 00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:40.679 whole life that it just seemed like adults and older 1007 00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.480 people were obsessed with prices. And like you're at a 1008 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:46.090 family gathering and everyone's talking about like a good price 1009 00:50:46.179 --> 00:50:49.289 they saw. And it's like, what about art? What about music? 1010 00:50:50.210 --> 00:50:53.130 What about nature? You saw a price? You guys are 1011 00:50:53.170 --> 00:50:54.190 all talking about a price? 1012 00:50:54.489 --> 00:50:58.389 It's like art, music, nature, that stuff is always there. 1013 00:50:58.510 --> 00:51:01.699 There's lots of it. There's lots to discuss, but A 1014 00:51:01.780 --> 00:51:06.019 low price? That's like, you know, you spotted something rare. 1015 00:51:06.039 --> 00:51:09.190 Yeah, it's like they saw a rare bird house at 1016 00:51:09.210 --> 00:51:13.269 the grocery store. These granola

bars, they were 99 cents, 1017 00:51:13.369 --> 00:51:14.110 I swear to God. 1018 00:51:14.130 --> 00:51:14.909 Oh my God. 1019 00:51:14.929 --> 00:51:15.739 I loaded up. 1020 00:51:17.050 --> 00:51:17.840 I loaded up. 1021 00:51:19.019 --> 00:51:22.079 I was on a little road trip a few weeks ago. 1022 00:51:23.090 --> 00:51:27.340 And stopping at gas stations, just noticing the price on 1023 00:51:27.539 --> 00:51:35.119 a 600 milliliter bottle of sodas. They were like $ 3. 75 1024 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:38.809 in like a normal gas station. You know, when I 1025 00:51:38.829 --> 00:51:40.800 was a kid, they were like $ 1. 50, I think, $ 1. 1026 00:51:40.670 --> 00:51:40.739 50. 1027 00:51:40.730 --> 00:51:42.670 And it would be like $ 1 for the can of soda. 1028 00:51:45.579 --> 00:51:49.320 And then sometimes at the airport, it would be like $ 3. 1029 00:51:48.579 --> 00:51:50.460 And you'd be like, what the heck? 1030 00:51:50.659 --> 00:51:51.639 Highway robbery. 1031 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:54.389 And now it's $ 3. 75 at a normal gas station. 1032 00:51:55.929 --> 00:51:56.570 It's true, though. 1033 00:51:56.590 --> 00:51:58.650 You know, a lot of stuff right now that used 1034 00:51:58.670 --> 00:52:05.849 to be $ 2. 50, it's $ 4. 50. What the heck? I have 1035 00:52:05.889 --> 00:52:08.469 had this feeling. Like, I do have this feeling buying 1036 00:52:08.489 --> 00:52:12.309 stuff a lot of being like, $ 9 for cereal? What, 1037 00:52:12.329 --> 00:52:18.929 do you think I was born yesterday? It's so funny. 1038 00:52:18.969 --> 00:52:23.530 I just remember, like, my whole life hearing senior citizens and, like, 1039 00:52:23.670 --> 00:52:27.269 parents and uncles and shit just being like, ah, man, 1040 00:52:27.929 --> 00:52:31.119 I can't believe that the cereal was six bucks. Can 1041 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:33.760 you believe that? And it's like, okay, whatever, old man. 1042 00:52:33.780 --> 00:52:36.820 And then I'm at the grocery store, and I'm like, what? 1043 00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:39.360 I remember when this was $ 4. 1044 00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:38.900 50. 1045 00:52:38.900 --> 00:52:42.619 It still feels like it should be, and they were 1046 00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:46.349 right the whole time, it turns out. It's a feeling 1047 00:52:46.550 --> 00:52:48.739 that you notice and like, yeah, you can be like, oh, 1048 00:52:48.780 --> 00:52:52.559 wages also increase and maybe not by as much and whatever. 1049 00:52:52.599 --> 00:52:57.079 But that feeling that everything around you is constantly pushing 1050 00:52:57.179 --> 00:53:00.139 in a little more price wise, it's always going up. 1051 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:06.429 It's like a lifelong guttural fear that you're going to 1052 00:53:06.690 --> 00:53:10.230 not be OK. And every time you see a high price, 1053 00:53:10.650 --> 00:53:13.210 it just hits you in that a little bit. And 1054 00:53:13.710 --> 00:53:16.809 it's hard not to be a little terrified at the 1055 00:53:16.809 --> 00:53:21.110 $ 9 cereal or the whatever. What if they raise it 1056 00:53:21.170 --> 00:53:24.719 to $ 20 the next day? And then I won't be 1057 00:53:24.739 --> 00:53:25.519 able to keep up. 1058 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:30.880 Another grocery shopping feeling is when you get to the checkout, 1059 00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:33.320 you made all your little choices and they're like, the 1060 00:53:33.380 --> 00:53:37.940 total's $ 290. And you're like, $ 290? And you're looking through 1061 00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:39.699 your receipt. Where does that come from? You're like, oh, 1062 00:53:39.699 --> 00:53:43.269 $ 20 a year. That's a couple of $ 8 there. It's 1063 00:53:43.369 --> 00:53:45.730 plus the tax. Yeah, $ 290. Wow, Jesus Christ. 1064 00:53:45.750 --> 00:53:47.230 Yeah, it's rough. 1065 00:53:47.869 --> 00:53:48.469 The total. 1066 00:53:48.489 --> 00:53:51.880 It's one of the worst parts of grocery shopping. 1067 00:53:51.900 --> 00:53:54.440 Yeah, no, I like the walking down the aisle being 1068 00:53:54.460 --> 00:53:56.980 like a little of this, a little of that. But 1069 00:53:59.099 --> 00:54:00.019 I hate the ending. 1070 00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:04.000 I like putting things in the basket and imagining having 1071 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:09.239 it and getting to pick. But also... Grocery stores aren't 1072 00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:14.179 like the best environments. Usually they're very bright, sterile. Sometimes 1073 00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:16.940 there's a lot of people. If there's a lot of lineups, 1074 00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:18.880 they can be overstimulating. 1075 00:54:19.579 --> 00:54:19.800 Yeah. 1076 00:54:20.019 --> 00:54:23.070 Sometimes I can be in the groove in a grocery store, 1077 00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:27.230 but other times, other times not. You know, one thing 1078 00:54:27.469 --> 00:54:30.849 that they like rearranged, I think they do this intentionally, 1079 00:54:30.869 --> 00:54:34.969 like they rearrange the grocery store periodically. So you can't 1080 00:54:35.010 --> 00:54:37.139 find the things that you're just there to get. I 1081 00:54:37.179 --> 00:54:39.769 know that they put the milk at the back. The 1082 00:54:39.789 --> 00:54:41.369 milk and cheese is always at the back of the 1083 00:54:41.409 --> 00:54:45.070 grocery store. And that's like a old grocery store owner 1084 00:54:45.170 --> 00:54:47.969 trick to like make people walk through the entire grocery 1085 00:54:47.989 --> 00:54:51.050 store to buy staples so they can increase the chance 1086 00:54:51.090 --> 00:54:53.190 that they're going to be like, Ooh, I haven't had 1087 00:54:53.289 --> 00:54:58.239 olives in a while or whatever. I noticed this recently 1088 00:54:58.260 --> 00:55:01.039 because I was making a quick trip to grab some 1089 00:55:01.099 --> 00:55:04.949 stuff to round out a recipe for dinner. And it 1090 00:55:05.130 --> 00:55:08.889 took so long to find everything because the whole store 1091 00:55:08.909 --> 00:55:11.230 had

been shuffled like a deck of cards. So I'm 1092 00:55:11.250 --> 00:55:15.780 like zipping back and forth, totally inefficient pathway. And yeah, 1093 00:55:15.860 --> 00:55:19.860 that's annoying. The coherence of the grocery layout is something 1094 00:55:19.900 --> 00:55:23.980 that we're at war with these grocery providers. They want 1095 00:55:24.019 --> 00:55:27.179 it to be incoherent and challenging. And then also you 1096 00:55:27.219 --> 00:55:29.940 have The ethnic food or whatever. I don't know what 1097 00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:31.679 they call it. They used to call it the ethnic 1098 00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:33.619 food aisle. I objected to that always. 1099 00:55:33.699 --> 00:55:34.539 International. 1100 00:55:35.900 --> 00:55:38.880 But then there's also a noodle section. And it's like, okay, 1101 00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:40.800 am I going to the noodle section or am I 1102 00:55:40.860 --> 00:55:44.090 going to the international section to get these noodles? Because 1103 00:55:44.110 --> 00:55:45.989 a lot of noodles come from around the world. 1104 00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:50.389 International section slaps, to be honest. There's like always some 1105 00:55:50.730 --> 00:55:55.320 interesting snacks in there. And the spices are usually cheaper 1106 00:55:55.380 --> 00:55:57.980 than the other spice section because, yeah, there's like two 1107 00:55:58.420 --> 00:56:02.570 spices sections that have a lot of overlapping spices. Check 1108 00:56:02.590 --> 00:56:07.869 the international aisle for your spices is my advice. And 1109 00:56:08.789 --> 00:56:10.949 it is kind of weird that it can't just be 1110 00:56:11.730 --> 00:56:16.199 distributed with everything else. I don't know why it's... All 1111 00:56:16.219 --> 00:56:18.539 the noodles together, all the spices together. 1112 00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:21.699 That'd be too coherent. That would be too good for 1113 00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:22.639 the workers of the world. 1114 00:56:22.659 --> 00:56:26.019 It doesn't segregate off the internationals enough. 1115 00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:30.260 And then it's the same, like, my partner, she prefers 1116 00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:34.230 the gluten-free bread. And it's frequently not with the bread. 1117 00:56:34.289 --> 00:56:37.349 It's like in, maybe it's with, some of it comes frozen. 1118 00:56:37.690 --> 00:56:41.809 Fair enough. But like, first of all, the prices should 1119 00:56:41.829 --> 00:56:43.349 be low. Number one. 1120 00:56:43.829 --> 00:56:45.389 And number two. And number three. 1121 00:56:52.650 --> 00:56:54.989 There's a highlight from a new episode of Seriously Wrong. 1122 00:56:55.409 --> 00:56:58.699 Find the archives of the internationally acclaimed utopian leftist comedy 1123 00:56:58.739 --> 00:57:04.340 show at seriouslywrong.com, at harbingermedianetwork.com, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1124 00:57:04.940 --> 00:57:07.119 You've been listening to Harbinger Showcase on your local campus 1125 00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:09.659 and community radio station. This episode has been brought to 1126 00:57:09.679 --> 00:57:12.039 you by For the Long Haul, how to stay in 1127 00:57:12.059 --> 00:57:14.219 the fight for a better world. Find it at your 1128 00:57:14.260 --> 00:57:17.980 local library or independent bookstore and at btlbooks.com. and use 1129 00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:21.449 code AUDIO20 for a 20% discount on orders made through 1130 00:57:21.469 --> 00:57:26.449 the website anytime before the end of 2026 at btlbooks.com. 1131 00:57:26.730 --> 00:57:28.889 We'll be back with a new episode next week. Until then, 1132 00:57:29.030 --> 00:57:32.360 I'm Harbinger Director Andre Goulet in Montreal. Now, back to 1133 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:35.380 your regularly scheduled community radio station programming.