Full Transcript for GROUNDED Live - 2026: Rowan Reid - Trees, Wood & the Family Farm

is it agriculture if it doesn't involve farmers? 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:38.000 Why haven't farmers been involved in forestry as widespread here as in some other places in the world? 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:42.560 I think it's because forestry is a risky long-term investment. 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:55.680 Uh, selling to a multinational or a monarch, a single buyer monopoly market, uh, trees burn, markets disappear, and there's been a lot of schemes and scams in forestry in Australia. 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:57.520 So it is an ugly investment. 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:58.960 And this is where I want to start. 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:04.960 The current forestry we see in so much of Australia and in places around the world is not an attractive thing. 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:10.719 We've got to the point where some people are actually suggesting we grow hemp instead of grow timber. 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:17.120 That might be an alternative in some places, but it just to me shows how ugly forestry has become. 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:22.000 So that's me when I was um what, first-year forestry student. 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:24.479 That ugliness of forestry is nothing new. 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:29.840 When my brother was a dairy farmer up at Tannybrun, not far from here, he might be in the room. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.199 Uh he was in a farmer community. 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:38.319 I was studying uh forestry on during the week, spending my weekend milking cows on the farm. 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:42.800 Most people in that community had seen farms being sold, converted to pine plantations. 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.759 They'd seen the Clearfell logging across in the other valley. 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:47.919 They had no interest in timber production. 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:50.879 They wanted to plant trees, but they didn't want to be involved in forestry. 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:52.560 But I was passionate about forestry. 00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:56.000 And it reminded me of Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance. 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:02.000 That uh journey that uh the author took with his son in 1966 that became this best-selling book. 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.319 His concern at the time was the hippie community were rejecting technology. 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:10.719 And he was saying, there's not necessarily ugliness in technology. 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:15.439 Technology is just the making of things and cannot, by its very nature, be ugly. 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:20.399 So I've taken that and turned it around and said, there's nothing inherently ugly about forestry. 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:23.120 Forestry is just the growing of trees. 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:32.959 We wouldn't have gardens and beautiful landscapes created by people growing trees if we didn't see the value in that forest science. 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:35.600 So I'm passionate about the science of forestry. 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:40.800 I'm particularly passionate about engaging farmers that I've worked with around the world. 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.079 And our own family history is one involved in farming. 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:48.879 And it was because of my grandfather's farm, which was his father's farm. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:50.160 Oops, we're going back. 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:51.759 I'm looking at different photos. 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:55.600 That property was developed up at Walgut by my great-grandfather. 00:04:55.759 --> 00:04:57.680 My grandfather built that house. 00:04:57.839 --> 00:04:58.959 What's going on? 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:03.839 And uh I never met him, but he was passionate about agriculture. 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:15.199 And as a result of that, when the property was finally sold when I was at forestry school, I was given the opportunity to purchase land in the memory of my grandfather. 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:22.480 And I told my mother, who had the deciding rights on whether I could do this, she said, is you want to do anything with land? 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:28.000 And I said, I want to try and develop forestry in a way that's attractive to the farming community. 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.480 That was my sole gain. 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.959 If I could make forestry attractive to the farming community, what would happen? 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:37.759 What would that turn into in the landscape? 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:42.480 And our farm that we purchased just in the next valley, some of you came yesterday. 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:44.000 It certainly needed trees. 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:51.360 It needed trees for shade, shelter, soil conservation, beautification, erosion control, and all those aspects on the farm. 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:56.560 But I guess the only thing I did was then bring in some of my forest science and say, well, I've got to plant trees. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:04.160 Let's select and manage those trees for their potential to produce a timber product through the scheme of things. 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:07.920 And after 14 years, the property started to develop. 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:12.639 And what attracted me then was it didn't look like a conventional forestry plantation. 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:19.600 It didn't look like a series of options that we were trying to encourage or entice landholders around the country to adopt. 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:29.519 It was something that looked like it was a managed forest, but it was also providing the agricultural and beautification aspects of the of tree growing. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:34.319 There is something interesting going on in forest science, though, around the world. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.399 And for many people, people say, well, forest science, that's a bit of an oxymoron. 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.000 How can there be science in forestry? 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:41.439 It's it's so destructive. 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:54.399 And then you read the BBC reports or the ABC or The Guardian, they come out regularly

and they tell me that there's new science in forestry now that shows that everything we thought we knew about tree growing, trees used to compete. 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:56.079 Now they care for each other. 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:02.560 Trees used to be managed quite differently, and now we want to just change the way that's been done. 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:06.399 So one of those things would be the Woodwide Web that you've all heard about. 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:21.600 And it's interesting because this started to eat at me a little bit and thinking, why are people so passionate about rejecting the science of forestry and are adopting these alternative ways of looking at the way the forest was dealing with it? 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:23.199 Now I've got no problem with fungi. 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:24.639 We've got three types of fungi. 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:34.079 We've got the bad pathenogenic ones, we've got the ones that eat the organic matter on the farm, and we've got the mycorrhizal fungi, which we're all so excited about at the moment. 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:36.560 But this was taking it to another level. 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.199 I'd learnt about those fungi at university. 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:55.920 There was nothing new or changing in that view, but the suggestion that the trees were not competing, that they were caring for each other, that if we just let forest nature take its course and let the forest grow in its own way, we would have the perfect forest for whatever values we want. 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:59.439 If we took people out of the equation, it would be a better result. 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:01.600 And that was dangerous in my mind. 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.879 And I'm interested now what the scientific process unfolds. 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:05.680 So what happens? 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:11.519 You have a peer-reviewed article, it gets published, and then people sort of accept that as fact. 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.600 But it's the next step which is the most exciting in the scientific process. 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:34.159 It's where people within that scientific discipline start have the opportunity to test, question, repeat the experiments, and decide for themselves whether that published article is actually warranted as an accepted foundation uh of knowledge for that discipline. 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:42.559 And I've been watching the World World Wide Web story develop over 15 years or so since the paper in the mid-90s was first written in Nature. 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:58.000 And I've been excited to see that in 19 just to 2003, not long ago, there was a new paper published by Christine Justine Karst and her colleagues from um the same country where the original paper came from. 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.399 And uh couple of quotes from that. 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:20.000 The claims that uh microbial networks are actually transferring uh carbon to other plants in a through a network is insufficiently supported, and that trees are preferentially moving carbon to their offsprings through these networks, there is no evidence for it. 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.639 And I think you should encourage you to look at that. 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:30.879 And she spoke on a podcast and said recently, uh, I'd rather believe in the know the truth than believe in a fairy tale in that way. 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:35.919 And it's interesting when people say, Well, in all science, you just choose your scientist now. 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:43.759 But I point out to you that one of the authors of that paper, Melanie Jones, was also an author in the original paper in the 95. 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:51.279 And she's come out and questioned whether or not we can interpret that original paper as saying many of the things that contributed to that. 00:09:51.600 --> 00:10:02.240 So I think science is a really interesting thing, but I got to the point now where I worry people are choosing the science they want, and they're rejecting science because they see the way other people are practicing it. 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:04.240 And I think we can do better than that. 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:12.799 So the concern that many people have about forestry practices, I have many concerns about the way native forest has been harvested and practiced. 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.639 I think we need to focus on what is the underpinning science? 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:18.399 Is that well founded? 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:23.440 And maybe it's the values of the people applying that science that we need to question in some way. 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:31.440 I've got very good friends up in northern New South Wales, Annabelle and James, who produce FSC certified timber from managing a native forest. 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.600 They're doing an extraordinary job. 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.399 I'd actually hate to see the end of native forest logging. 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.679 I want to see native forest logging change in some ways. 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:41.919 We don't have much native forest here. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:53.360 So on our farm, we're using that conventional science, goes back hundreds of years, to try to grow really good quality wood from the trees that we're growing for other purposes on the farm. 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:57.600 So I want to show you some of the things we do on our farm. 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:01.039 This is a tree that we harvested uh 36 years old. 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:02.399 We planted that tree. 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.000 Uh that's it on the sawmill. 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:05.440 The sawmill is actually over there. 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:07.600 You can we can talk about that later. 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:14.960 And we dried the timber in a kiln, and that's the stairs in our house that came from that tree that we actually planted. 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:19.519 We've also, this is what's happening with the uh the IT guy. 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:25.279 I

don't think it matters where I stand. 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:26.559 There's a pine log. 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:28.000 We grow pinus radiata. 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:29.759 Stewards have got some pinus radiata. 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:30.320 Have a look at them. 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.720 They're not your conventional managed pines. 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:36.240 We're producing some pretty clean timber out of those. 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:52.399 And the we grade them for structural purposes, and that's the framing for the house where almost all the timber came from trees we planted, whether they were F7 pines, that's the grading method we used, or F-17 hardwoods for beams and um posts in that scenario. 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.960 So the cladding on the house is blue gum. 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:59.360 There's a blue gum on the sawmill we just harvested, only 30 years old, Andrew, isn't it? 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:00.559 On the sawmill. 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:11.039 And that uh that timber is bell-rated for bell 19 because it has to be over 750 kilograms per cubic meter for the bushfire rating. 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.000 That worked well. 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:14.960 And inside the house, you can't even see it because it's not working. 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:20.080 We've got uh shining gum cladding, flooring, and other things from all planted trees. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:26.639 So we've actually been planting trees for conservation, shelter, beautification, but managed them through a profit. 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.840 And now, after less than 40 years, we're actually at that point where producing timber from that. 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:34.799 55 trees went in the house. 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:36.480 So it's the active management. 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:39.039 That's what I've been trying to introduce to landholders. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:42.399 Not you should be doing forestry the way the foresters have done it. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:48.399 You should be understanding the science and actively managing those trees to try and produce the highest quality product. 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.080 Um, Andrew Maher's in the audience, you're in this picture, Andrew. 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:53.279 This is the Nice Timor. 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:57.200 We were rolling, the kids were rolling wheels down the hill and tapping it with a stick. 00:12:57.279 --> 00:13:03.279 And as soon as I saw that, I thought that's exactly the scenario that we need in our forests. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:14.559 We need hundreds of people tapping their forests with a stick, taking it to deliver the outcomes they want, whether it's better biodiversity, better timber, better water quality, or other aspects of the tree growing. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:18.240 Uh, it is something you can learn, and Mike's in the audience as well. 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:23.039 That Mike, that's you trying to roll a wheel down a hill, tap it with a stick. 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:25.519 You failed,

it went to. 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:29.600 And uh that's the master tree growers alluded to before. 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:41.440 So when we developed the master tree grower, the idea was to allow people to adopt the science and understanding and the passion for tree growing, and then take that tree growing whatever the direction they want it. 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:49.360 I was fortunate enough to work at a university at the time, and universities are interested in education, not what you do with that education. 00:13:49.679 --> 00:14:02.159 Whereas most people involved in promoting forestry, whether they're departments or governments, they have agendas, they want you to do a particular type of tree growing, biodiversity, carbon, those things at the moment, more timber production. 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:06.159 But we just want to see what farmers do if they take on that knowledge. 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.080 Can that production actually support conservation outcomes? 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:17.120 We've had a bit of fun watching sugar gliders come back to the property, and you'll see film here, one landing on our pruned silky oak. 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:20.399 They use silky oak to get through the winter in that scenario. 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:36.080 We've had anti kinus and and uh Ricali come back to the farm, which is lovely because they need that woody debris or they need that higher order stream to come through, and all this is coming from a site where the trees have been harvested. 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:39.360 So forestry is actually complementing conservation outcomes. 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:49.120 This is uh that beach ball is the volume of carbon dioxide in that little block of blue gum timber down there. 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.919 A lot of people planting trees for carbon. 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:57.039 My concern is that those trees are vulnerable in the landscape to fire or death or storms. 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:05.440 It's not until we harvest that and lock that timber, that carbon up in the wood products, that we've really got a long-term sustainable source. 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:11.200 And then back in the forest where I've taken this log out, I can still grow more carbon. 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:17.840 Whereas if I'm only credited for the carbon growing in the forest, I get to a point where I can't grow anymore. 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:28.639 But this case, I can actually harvest that carbon, put it in a house, put it in furniture, and then grow more with no liability to protect that, other than protect the house or the furniture. 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:30.480 There's a place for exotic trees. 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:35.600 So a lot of land care would encourage people not to look at exotic trees. 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.799 But trees actually have great values across the landscape. 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.080 This is uh our coast redwoods that some of you saw yesterday. 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:50.879 Great habitat for owls,

but the the greatest value they have is trapping and protecting the sodic subsoils in our systems. 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:57.039 The subsoils are very high sodium content, and as a result, they're very prone to erosion. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:03.440 None of our native species and most exotics that we plant aren't able to grow in that soil, so they can't stop that erosion. 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:16.799 But I've just found the redwoods can actually grow in it, and by growing in it, the acid breaks out the calcite, separates the calcium out, and the calcium can then bind, like liming your clays from below, fix that soil. 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:28.240 And it's quite exciting to think that okay, we've got species available on our palette of species from around the world that we can use on our farms to solve soil erosion while also producing timber. 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.039 So you can see the soil erosion control we're having. 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.639 We can go into detail, but I always like to show a tree falling down. 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:36.480 This doesn't like videos, does it? 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:41.039 There's a redwood that's James Kidman felling one of our redwood trees. 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.759 Just hear it hit the ground. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:52.720 That was sawn up on our bandsaw over there, and that's me at Mayton Guitars, where they're looking at using our redwood for soundboards. 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.200 A really premium high value use for that timber, which is exciting. 00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:59.840 We're now investigating some of those outcomes. 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:09.279 Black walnut here, we produce uh fire break, growing black walnut timber and uh produce nuts for sale from that. 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:15.759 And English oaks, even a really good one for a fire break, but also beautiful for autumn foliage, as you know. 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:28.799 The acorns may or may not be feed value, depending on whether you're concerned about acorn deaths in that, uh, certainly for beautification of the farm and the harvesting small wood for shiitake mushroom production out of that. 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.759 But one thing I'm really keen on is the Australian blackwood. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:37.359 Grows from Tasmania to the Athadan table lands, been introduced to Western Australia as well. 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:43.680 Australian native acacia species, recognized as one of the highest value timbers uh available. 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:45.440 We can manipulate its growth. 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:50.319 It usually grows like a bit like an apple tree, but you grow it and prune it and manage it up. 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:55.119 You can actually produce some beautiful colored heartwood timber from that in a reasonable time. 00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:00.240 And this is me milling up a 30-year-old blackwood that we actually planted. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.799 And that timber, you can see there, was converted into a guitar. 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:13.519 And then you've actually got here emerging markets, which are totally different to some of the markets traditional timber goes to in Australia. 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:19.519 We've got guitars, we've got furniture options, we've got your own house building, neighbors, and others buildings. 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:31.440 So there's a great opportunity to start using forest science to drive some of this change in the way we grow trees, but also develop these alternative markets for different things. 00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.000 I have to admit, I did take advantage of AI. 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.240 I said, just put a galar on the fence and surround it by cockies. 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:46.720 And I did see someone had a real photo of this about 20 years ago, and I've been searching for that. 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:48.319 I don't even know who it was, but I saw it. 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.000 So I have borrowed the idea. 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.720 Because that's me, the forester amongst farmers. 00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:03.839 Anything we achieve over on our property, it's great, it makes a great story, but it doesn't mean anything to me unless we have this adoption, this engagement of a whole community. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:08.000 And I've been extremely fortunate here with my friend Andrew Stewart. 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:12.160 If I can get another microphone, can I just invite Andrew up as well? 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:13.680 Uh, I just wanted to show you. 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:18.240 Andrew was young once, and I also had hair. 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:29.440 And uh so we met on this property 39 years ago when I walked up to him when he was working in the yards because I wanted to explore what those trees were growing up behind the shed. 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:33.359 They were Tay and stone pines, and we did end up planting some of those. 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.000 And during that process, we started building a relationship around trees. 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:42.880 And Andrew's an agri agricultural scientist, university trained. 00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:47.599 I'm a forest scientist, and he's a fourth, fifth, what do you call it? 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:52.480 Fourth generation, fourth generation, the kids are fifth, and I was the newcomer to the area. 00:19:52.720 --> 00:20:08.400 And I guess I latched on to Andrew because if it was going to work, if forestry was going to be adopted by the farming community, and this community here, would it be fair to say they weren't really interested in timber production at all and it was seen as a threat? 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:13.039 Well, well, pine trees had given this whole idea of taking over the landscape. 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.440 So there was a dislike of pine trees, it was quite evident. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:17.920 Yeah. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.720 So I came into a hostile community, which is great. 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:26.319 If you've got an

idea and you're trying to change views, um, you're going to be challenged. 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:38.240 And uh I've learnt an enormous amount about how to communicate, how to think about the economics of forestry, how to understand what might be the drivers of landholders. 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:45.519 And I'm using Andrew as an example, but there's many others, many in this tent who have contributed to these ideas as well. 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:53.359 But some of the things I've learned from Andrew, farmers will grow trees if they meet the needs that they have. 00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:09.119 Now, it's just sounds ridiculously simple, but most government agency industry programs they decide what they want farmers to grow the trees for, and they go and tell them you should be growing for biodiversity, you should be going for carbon, you should be going for timber. 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:11.359 Very few of them just ask. 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:25.759 So when Andrew and I got together and put in an application for the National Farm Forestry Program grant in 1992 or 3, we said, they said, well, we told them, we told the federal government, we're not going to plant a tree. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:27.519 And they said, What are you going to do then? 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:29.200 This is all about promoting forestry. 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:34.400 And we said, we're going to go and talk to farmers, just have a conversation about how trees. 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:43.920 So our program, like unlike any other in that program during the 90s, didn't plant trees, just talked to landholders about what their motivations were. 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:53.359 The other thing that Andrew taught me was um, and obviously, forestry is a highly risky venture. 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:59.599 If you go out and put a block of forestry in, you're probably worrying every day that it's every summer it's not going to burn down, every winter. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.000 It's not going to blow down, you're going to worry that you're managing it for a market that doesn't exist. 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.480 You're adding risk to your property. 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.279 And Andrew said, No, it's not like that. 00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:10.880 What did you tell me? 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:27.279 Well, really, the uh the time doesn't really worry me because while the tree's there, providing all these other benefits, which I spoke about when I was um talking this morning, and and that's really um beneficial to us. 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:46.880 And I grew up in a culture of tree planning until we appreciate that the trees can do this, that, and the other, so that while the tree is growing, um, we don't have to apply all these fancy econometric models to say what's the internal rate of return and at present value and this sort of thing, because we know that the tree is going to provide those values. 00:22:47.119 --> 00:23:00.240 At the end of the day, if you do a bit of value adding to

it, a very uh small amount of investment, you've got a product there that you can harvest, and you've kept that option alive till you do so. 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.759 And it's it was also about picking the trees in the landscape. 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:14.079 So you're not putting the tree there to compete with the pasture and compete with the animals, but you're putting there to complement the agricultural system and the environmental issues. 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:21.119 So that's uh that was these were for a forester, they're petty big, big ideas. 00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:36.319 First, ask someone else what they want to grow trees for, and then if they have a problem, a risk, lambing, shelter problems, uh soil erosion, uncertainty risk, whatever's niggling them, make sure the trees are answering their that problem. 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:47.519 We'd have visitors coming in the early days to look at the tree program, and we'd have some foresters in there have this really strong training economics. 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:53.759 Oh, yeah, but you know, what what about all these uh costs and you know, have you factored that into it? 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:55.759 I said, Well, it's just not relevant. 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.960 I said, don't even have to worry about going to the spreadsheet. 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:00.960 But I've got plenty of other things to do. 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:02.799 I know this is going to work, you know. 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.000 It's picking the tree into the landscape for those multiple values. 00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:07.279 That's what we really want. 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.599 If we can keep the option alive to harvest, all we have to do is a bit of management. 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:21.599 Now, Ron's raving on about what he learned from me, I'll rave on about what I learned from him because he said to me that you can add value to that tree, keep the option alive, so that you can actually harvest it. 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:41.440 And that only takes a little bit of form pruning, a little bit of thinning where you get some firewood, and then at the end of the day, probably for about a$40 investment per tree, you could have a beautiful soil like that you'll see on that mill over there now that is 30 years old, growing on this property, provide you all the environmental values. 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:48.880 And when you take it out, because the other trees are there, we don't lose the integrity because we're doing a harvest on the mosaic over space and time. 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:50.960 So it's thinking through the process too. 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:54.880 Yeah, we were where where that log comes from is the back paddock over here. 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:56.400 But uh, we're driving around. 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:02.400 I'm driving down there now with the sawmiller's eye on these trees, thinking, buggy, you didn't prune that one. 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:06.079 And when that falls down or dies, it's a nuisance. 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:06.480 Yeah. 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.799 But this these other ones were highly valued. 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:16.880 So uh, yeah, that comment that you made, uh, the other one you just referred to, uh, 30 years don't present a problem to me. 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:24.400 Well, the biggest problem with growing timber is timber takes time, and the better the quality of the timber, it often takes a bit longer. 00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:32.400 I mean, you can grow firewood and pulp wood, but if you do better than that, guitar timbers and furniture grade timbers, you have to understand the science of wood. 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:39.519 You can hasten it by growing these big logs quickly by spacing and improving wood quality by pruning. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.759 But Andrew says 30 years is not a problem to me. 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:55.279 And I'm thinking, wait, I I as a professional, I can't go out and say using my discounted cash flow analysis and show that you'll get a return on this, it's not going to be viable. 00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.440 But he taught me it doesn't matter. 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:03.920 If you're if you love the trees or need the trees where they are, the time it takes is what you do. 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:23.200 And what the rest of it is wouldn't it have been great if a lot of those words were in those earlier applications for submissions for putting trees on landscapes about looking at the farmers perspective and fitting the trees in the landscape for not real values, and let's just manage a few to keep the option alive, you get some high-value um tree products coming from it. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:33.680 Yeah, and I've I've sort of honed that down in my thinking, thinking what we're talking about is the capital value of the farm rather than potential income. 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.960 Growing timber is not going to put food on your table for many years. 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:39.599 It's not going to get your kids through school. 00:26:39.920 --> 00:27:04.720 But you could use the time that you have as the manager of this property, maybe 30 years, 40 years, whatever you're lucky enough to get, to build the infrastructure or the capital asset and have that idea that future generations, if it's not you, if you didn't start when you were 25, you may have that opportunity to create diversification and income opportunities in a world that we don't know what it's going to be like in the future. 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.759 We spoke about that, Ryan, tour we had this morning. 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.160 They said, Well, what are the values of the tree? 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.759 Oh, so well, do you feel better walking through here than walking through the paddock? 00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:15.440 Yeah, okay, there's a fantastic value. 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:17.119 We want to have that. 00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:32.480 You know, we we we've got the habitat, we've got the reduction of wind

speed for landing ewes and grass growth, and then we have the uh issue of filtering water, better water quality, beautification, property value. 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:33.920 The list goes on and on. 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:44.240 Reduce the salinity, reduce the water logging, hold the water in the landscape, use the trees as large lakes because the trees are about what are they about 70% water? 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:45.599 Yeah, holding that water. 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:52.240 So put them at the break of slope where the soil is anaerobic and get the trees to suck the water out. 00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:58.240 And you've got the water hold being held in the landscape, providing all those values I've just articulated. 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:08.000 And these are some of the true values that you can gain from your trees, the salinity, as I mentioned, and just getting that perspective of this wow, isn't this fantastic? 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.319 Getting all these values, and uh it's it's wonderful. 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:20.880 One of the things you both you and Jill said during the drought just last year, yeah, that having the trees just lifted your spirits. 00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:22.079 Well, there was something green. 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:30.160 We've had two years of more than two years of drought with very little runoff, but you go around the property and it it there's greenery there. 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:45.440 And it it does have an impact on your psychological status, I believe, moving around the farm, because you're also thinking about those trees, how you're managing those trees, and you go out and do a bit of work on it, you know that you're going to add value to the uh end product of the trees. 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:47.759 So that's another motivation. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:54.640 A lot of those jobs can be done when there's a downtime in the farming, so you can make a good complementarity in the management. 00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:00.319 And um, if it's on the screen, that's uh harvesting of the log that's actually currently on the sawmill. 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.799 We've milled the lower part, and um, that's gone off to a furniture maker. 00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:10.640 Uh, the the the next log up, we're talking the first three metres is gone, the next three metres is on the mill now. 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.759 So you can go and have a look at the little quality of that. 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:15.759 Uh that was a harvest opportunity. 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:21.759 Didn't have to harvest, just had an opportunity to do something with some timber, when to pick the trees that you wanted. 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:34.480 And what we've learned on our property is that if the quality of the tree is great enough, its diameter, its straightness, the species, the pruning history, harvesting one tree can be viable. 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:43.440 I've always thought, wouldn't it be great if I had a thousand acres so I could put in a much larger forest and be a real forester in terms of the volume of production? 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:52.799 But then it occurred to me, no, if I can make forestry work on a Winnie the Pooh 100-acre wood, then it becomes available to everyone. 00:29:53.039 --> 00:30:04.480 So on this property, 18% tree cover, it should be viable to actually manage those trees in long water courses, in shelter belts and others, whether you harvest, whether that opportunity arises. 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:19.920 If you get to 18 or 20 percent, you're still not really competing with agricultural production because by the time you take out that waterlogged area, you know, no good for grazing, the salty area, no good for grazing, the um remnant vegetation needs to be fenced out anyway. 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:34.480 Use the trees for land class subdivision so you get shelter, even biossecurity with the neighbors, have double fencing with trees to stop the needle grass and and other um problem species coming through or animals with diseases, that all comes into it. 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:40.640 And fitting the trees into the landscape can be something that can be entirely beneficial to the farm. 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:51.599 I think though that when you maybe get to on our place anyway, if we start to go beyond 20%, well, then the trees will be competing with the agricultural production. 00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:52.720 So we've just got to make a decision. 00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:08.480 If we want to have more trees and more stock, I suspect our family discussion seems to be that we would probably keep it at about 20% because we're in the game of running prime lambs and wool, and the trees are there to support that, but we can also get benefit from them. 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.039 So we want to keep that annual cash flow going. 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.440 But I think it's a nice mix, a 20-80 mix. 00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:15.920 Yeah, and I think you've now you've got the ongoing management. 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:19.519 It's not like you need more because you'll be harvesting and replanting. 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:27.119 And one of those uh areas will be the pines, and that reinforces the point that I really want to make and highlight at the start. 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:38.240 Andrew and Hugh, in their pine growing on the property, are using exactly the same science and genetics as being used by the industrial pine growers, but they're doing it in a very different way. 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:48.000 They're feeding it into the farm so the trees have job, so therefore, it doesn't matter if it takes it long to grow, they're manipulating and managing in that growth to increase the quality of that product. 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:50.240 So don't reject the science. 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.039 Find out which aspects of the tree science would actually work. 00:31:53.359 --> 00:32:06.480 And with that plantation, Rowan, when it was established, because you always, you know, if you

want 50 good heifers, you start off with 100 and cold back, and you planted trees at 800 cents of the hectare, then cull them back to about 350, so they weren't competing. 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:14.799 And um, then we sold the um thinnings as Christmas trees, and that paid for the fencing and the establishment of the plantation. 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:18.400 And the pine plantation is the coolest part on the farm, I found out. 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.160 Coolest in many ways, Andrew. 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:26.799 Yes, these terrible pines, but the sheep will go to the pines first, though the cool sheep just love it there. 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:27.279 Yep. 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:31.759 So to me, it's a little bit like the prescribed burning or the fuel reduction burning thing. 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:40.960 It's the same technology, fire, but people is now recognizing there's a difference between cultural burning and government fuel reduction burning. 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:45.920 It's just the application of that practice based on the value system of those people. 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:53.440 So we have a landscape in this area full of different people across a wide area with lots of different values. 00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.559 Now you're right located in this location here. 00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:01.119 You're surrounded not just by one farm, but many properties that are doing it. 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.759 Many people say, well, that's not agroforestry. 00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:07.519 There's not sheep running under the trees, there've not crops growing here and there. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:20.720 And uh, I've been working in the agroforestry field since I read the book in 1985 about agroforestry, but I don't like what most people talk about agroforestry being this prescriptive rule-based thing about it's got to be this, this, and this. 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:26.880 And what Andrew and I did right at the start, we said agroforestry is just the growing of trees by farmers. 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:38.240 So, in our network, we call it the Otway Agroforestry Network, 1993, and we hang on to that notion that it doesn't mean anything other than what do you want to grow trees for? 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:40.640 It's farmers growing trees for the reason they want. 00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:43.680 And that's taken us to really exciting places with the group. 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:47.519 So there's Andrew's property that's Claire and I are over in the valley there. 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:54.400 Mike and David, and many, many other people in this region have planted trees for the reasons that are important to you. 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:55.119 Them. 00:33:55.519 --> 00:34:02.400 Some are blocks, some are spaced out, some are just native with no intention of harvesting timbers, others for different values. 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:06.559 And we're seeing this change in the landscape, which is really, really exciting. 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:15.760 Many farmers, like Mike over here, have been growing and harvesting some of the trees for timber, which is fantastic, but we've got many other doing it for timber as well. 00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:23.280 And there's a diversity of species and management systems and scales that reflects the diversity of the people within the landscape. 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:29.679 Now we're doing banks because we fence out our dams to improve our farming operation for water quality and so on. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:31.440 And dual harvest every week. 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:36.239 So that's a form of agroforestry with the background forage of some of the trees as well. 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:43.119 And uh that's something which will grow in very dry conditions, and it's a bit of a risk management tool, also. 00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.599 I was just about to show that photo, Andrew. 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.079 No. 00:34:49.840 --> 00:35:10.320 The uh we've got a range of young people now developing wood-based industries, and we're thinking and exploring how we can have a diverse, almost a not cottage industry, but a very diverse timber industry that may tap into the large pulpwood suppliers as well as right down to the guitar of the furniture makers in the landscape. 00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:15.920 But as you as Andrew said, there's flowers, there's sea production, and now we're also seeing art. 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.400 There's a tent right here where some of our community are getting tree-based, nature-based art that builds off our agroforestry background as well. 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:29.280 So the diversity of forests you'll see in this landscape just reflects the diversity of people. 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:37.840 The success of our Watway Agroforest Network is actually based on the fact that we're not trying to get people to do anything other than what they want to do. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:46.960 And if trees are an answer to their problem, we'll help them build opportunities far on the far more than just what they want the trees to do initially. 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:58.639 The Otwa Agroforestry Network, the Master Tree Grow Program, our peer mentoring, we're going to be discussing all this where Mike leads a discussion over in the understory ted later this morning, and we encourage you to come along. 00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:09.920 Because if you're interested in cultural change, whether it's for tree growing or soil management or others, I think we might have some ideas about how this group is engaged in the community to develop cultural change. 00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:18.639 I want to thank Andrew, of course, but also Josh Rick for playing the guitar that Claire and I grew, Maton Guitars produced. 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:27.920 That was part of a project that James Kidman, a tone Oddway Tone Woods, who was forced to stop harvesting blackwood out of the native forest. 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:35.199 He was taking individually GPS-located trees and milling them

and selling high-grade blackwood into mates. 00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:36.960 He can't do that anymore. 00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.880 So the government puts the money into a project to explore alternatives. 00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:45.679 That's where the redwood went to, the blackwood and black walnut on that guitar. 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.679 We planted and managed those trees, and it's lovely to have that sound behind. 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:50.960 So thank you very much. 00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:52.400 We'll have some questions. 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.960 That's outstanding and unbelievable product. 00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:14.079 Wow, listen to that. 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:15.440 That's awesome. 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:16.800 Yeah. 00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:22.000 All right. 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:23.039 Uh, questions? 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:23.599 Yeah. 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:24.880 Bang. 00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:26.559 Sam, thank you. 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:35.360 I loved what you said about it's capital, not income. 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:37.039 And so I was curious. 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:46.719 We know that nature is increasingly coming onto the balance sheet, but in terms of land valuation, while that's coming, it's not, it's not really there yet. 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:54.559 But I was wondering, given that timber today has a much more tangible value, is that showing up in bank land valuation? 00:37:54.960 --> 00:38:00.000 I'm not sure about the banks, but I'm really interested in something that gets me in a lot of trouble with my peers. 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:05.679 Um, I used to go to forestry conferences and say that the forestry you're doing is a form of land degradation. 00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:17.039 Because as soon as you plant the trees and put the tax break or the or the the grant you got in your back pocket, your farm is actually worth less the day after you plant the trees. 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:24.719 Because someone else can't take that tax advantage you got, or the grant you got or the carbon upfront funding you got because the trees are already there. 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:29.920 Suddenly that land has less flexibility, less capital value. 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:39.199 And there are properties in this area that I think, having been planted with blue gums from fence to fence, have dropped in value about 30%. 00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:55.679 And I think as landholders, we know that forestry done inappropriately in your community, whatever your community or the buyers in your area value land for, if it's cropping land, why would you put your trees on the cropping part of the farm and not the other part? 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:11.280 Use the trees in a way that reflect what you believe is going to be of value in terms of the capital asset to your children or to a future buyer, and then I think you'll be covered because I think people are going to recognize those values at an auction if you have to sell. 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.440 And then the banks will certainly. 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:18.480 But I think the banks are right to say forestry can actually devalue your land. 00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:21.679 And I think that's going to come to the fore very quickly. 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:24.400 We've seen as a result of the managed investment schemes. 00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:32.000 I've got a lot of phone calls after they went bust during the financial crisis saying how much does it cost to convert a bluegum plantation back to a pasture? 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:34.639 It costs about the same as the cost of the land. 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:36.880 So that's how much it devalued it. 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:43.440 Yeah, I guess the difference there being the separation, oh sorry, from environmental plantings to timber. 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:44.000 Yeah. 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:46.719 Well, I think you've got to be careful with environmental plantings. 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:59.519 If uh they can also devalue the land done inappropriately, or you've sold the carbon rights or the biodiversity credits, and you're passing on a liability to the future owners because you took the credit, but they don't get access to it. 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:03.840 Unless it's an annual payment that goes on forever, then you're in trouble. 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:04.480 Yeah. 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:07.840 But um, I think this property's increased in value. 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:11.440 18% might be a really sweet spot in the agricultural landscape. 00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.440 Our property, I hope it has, but it's more like a ornamental parkland. 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:15.679 Yeah. 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:31.440 So with our agriforest network, we had a um a real estate agent asking to come and value properties or give us uh uh an idea um if a a place is appropriately vegetated or integrated the way we've been talking here, compared to none of that. 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:41.920 He was saying that it was anywhere from 10 to 30 even higher percent increase as a consequence of the complementarity to the environment and the production system. 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.119 Totally reverse to the other schemes. 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:54.239 Hi, um you briefly, Andrew I believe, briefly mentioned using trees as a barrier for weeds from the natives. 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:56.000 Can you expand that a little bit? 00:40:56.079 --> 00:41:00.000 I'm from East Gippsland, we've got African lover grass, no one wants to plant a tree. 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:04.719 What how does it work and how much does expand on that as well? 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:26.000 Well, I think it can be effective if we get tall trees and and have you know good understory and and um fairly dense sort of um program um in looking at um well the chilli and needle grass and the other one is the um the serrated uh tussen as well. 00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:46.639 And of course, with the animals, well you know, if you have a double if you have the bulls on

one side, well, there's an issue there just of the physical mucking up of your fence because they're they're too close, but also the disease characteristics which can travel from fence to fence, but difficult to travel through a five-row plantation. 00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.880 Oh, well, I wouldn't want to be only any less than about 16 metres because then you start to pick up the other values. 00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:05.440 If you have, say, five rows, the birds are more likely to be able to nest because they feel confident they can nest in the middle of the plantation rather than having two rows and not getting that sort of biodiversity and ecological functionality. 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:11.679 So you want to think about the other things you can build into it, not just think of one issue, think of many issues, and you can maximize that. 00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:15.199 Um, hi. 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:36.000 Um, from a land manager's perspective or farmer's perspective, who've planted thousands of trees, tens of thousands of trees, environmental planting, is there a way of, or what would your advice be to how we could modify it to a more productive, most naturally productive, and most financial production in the years to come? 00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:45.599 A lot of our fortunately, a lot of Australian native indigenous plants in our various regions have potential timber value. 00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.760 And the greatest one would be the natural durability of some of these species. 00:42:50.159 --> 00:43:03.679 So, for example, a lot of environmental plantings I see, it's hard to if they go past about 20 centimetres in diameter, there's not much you can do to correct a poorly formed or or heavily branched tree. 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:13.039 But if they're less than 15, you're well on the way to say, if a if one tree happens to grow straight, why not you just take a few branches off and create that opportunity? 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.440 Doesn't mean you have to manage the whole planting. 00:43:15.599 --> 00:43:39.440 You're just walking through, effectively, you know, take the docks and walk through the plantation with some tape, tape it around the trees of oh, this one, if I do something now, if I tap that wheel with a stick, I'll be able to take it somewhere that it's not going to go naturally because the branches aren't going to die off naturally, or they're not going to be uh the quality of the wood's not going to be, or that double leader is just going to damage the tree. 00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:45.599 And people sometimes say, well, those gnarly trees with lots of branches, aren't they better for biodiversity? 00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:46.800 I don't understand. 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:48.480 There's still a lot of canopy up there. 00:43:48.719 --> 00:44:02.639 I just look for a nice log three, five, six metres down the bottom of the tree, and suddenly a tree on our property, I know that half a day's work in a eucalypt tree, if it's Good now,

I don't open it up and there's any problems. 00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:05.519 There's three to six thousand dollars worth of wood there. 00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:14.239 Even a pine tree during COVID when we were milling up for the pine, I'd harvest that then go up and look up the Bunnings website and see how much money I'd saved, of course. 00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:26.079 And because I counted the beams that I needed for the house, and so it was between six hundred and fifteen hundred dollars of wood from just a single tree, a pine tree, because I'd managed it. 00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:30.079 Had I not pruned it, it would have been I couldn't have used it for the house. 00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:40.639 So it's just that little bit of work, and Andrew likes to call it 15-20 minutes a bit of work timely over a period of time, and suddenly an opportunity. 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.519 Well, it may never come, but that opportunity makes us better than dagging sheep. 00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:46.880 You go and sort of dag your sheep. 00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:47.599 Well, there you go. 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:48.639 Better than dagging sheep. 00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:49.039 That's great. 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.559 I'm gonna go back for the last two hours going and you know, pruning the tree. 00:44:52.639 --> 00:45:00.719 And the other thing about if you're biodiverse plant is if you can get some some of those in timber, that wood then is stored off site as part of your risk management. 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:07.599 If you have a fire, you haven't got as much effluent of uh carbon dioxide and other gases going out to store. 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:14.400 Let's get the stuff off and store it off site into good products, you know, flooring and housing, framing, and so on. 00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:26.400 And there'll be quite a discussion today with Hugh, Stewart, and others from the team about uh locking the carbon up in the tree to help make the farming neutral, but then all potential about how much of that you can then ongoingly store in the wood. 00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:30.079 They both have values, but the long-term store I'm quite confident about. 00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:35.119 Uh thanks, Rowan and Andrew. 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:39.360 One of the other questions I've got about the coal climate. 00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:47.760 Have you measured the change in temperatures, variations in this district as a result of all your good tree planting? 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.159 I've actually we just got one of those uh laser heat guns for the pizza oven. 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.480 I'm just wondering whether it works around the paddock with trees. 00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:58.400 Can I go and look at the temperature underneath those pine trees and under the oaks? 00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:02.400 One of the great advantages of trees is because evaporative cooling. 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:14.639 Now it doesn't work if there's no soil moisture, but if they've got access to soil moisture during the summer, they're transpiring that moisture up, and a very small amount of that water gets used for photosynthesis. 00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:21.199 Most is just keeping the tree turgid and the cells turgid, but also keeping it cool and flowing up. 00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:24.559 And that evaporative cooling atmosphere can extend. 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:31.440 And in Israel, they did some work and it was, you know, a kilometer down from the park, you had a cooling effect of some green vegetation. 00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:37.920 So it will be cooler just because of the shade, but the trees do better than shade if they've got access to moisture. 00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:46.880 Eucalypts aren't very good because they shut down and they stop losing moisture when the moisture is limited or temperatures are high or humidity is low. 00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:52.239 Whereas the oaks and the and the pines, they're quite wasteful with water, they'll just keep pumping it out. 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:53.039 And that's what can be. 00:46:53.280 --> 00:47:00.639 We've now got a 23 kilometre interface of tree to pass with 19% of the farm planted out. 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:07.360 And so we know that the farm is definitely cooler without actually doing the measurement, but it'd be good to do it. 00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:11.039 Do you know with all that shade is fantastic? 00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:12.880 You know, it's so much cooler in the summer. 00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:22.159 You've so many places because of the angles and the way we've done it with land class subdivision and natural features and so on, you've got trees that come in at all angles, there's always shade there. 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:27.280 And the other thing, too, is that it's relatively warm in the winter because you're reducing the chill factor. 00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:36.639 We know that the chill factor uh which is um exposed uh experienced by landing ewes is the function of the square of the wind speed. 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:44.480 If you cut the wind speed back by 20%, you have a dramatic increase in the um your survival of uh landing and so on. 00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:49.920 So it's relatively warmer in the winter with the 23 kilometre interface across the property. 00:47:50.079 --> 00:48:01.119 We get landing percentages over the last couple of years, we've been getting 160% in our landing sheet, um, peak landing on around about the 5th of August. 00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:04.719 Uh G. 00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:16.000 Um, yeah, there's clearly like so many like other than commercial um impacts to farm forestry, like a potential. 00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.719 I see a lot of potential there, it really excites me. 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:42.480 Um but so the I'm just I was just I've been I've got a mate in Tassie, he's working on the large-scale knit's plantations and everything, and he's I I have dreams of starting some sort of farm forestry situation, and um he talks about what how do you sort of make it

as a middle-sized grower? 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:44.159 I'm sure we'll talk about this more. 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.480 Is it the Friday tour on this farm? 00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:51.599 Um, because you're sort of at middle-sized grower, it's sort of of a commercial size. 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:58.079 Um, he talked about like large-scale um logging equipment. 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:02.800 You've got the harvest, you've got the water, you've got the trucking, it's all very expensive per hour. 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:12.639 So if you're not you don't if you don't have that 600 stems per hectare and you're really churning the logs out, it's hard to be worth it to even bring that machinery in. 00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:17.920 So on the that on one extreme you got that, on the other extreme you've got Rowan with the tractor. 00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:30.079 Um, how do you sort of think about making that work for a sort of small to medium size, commercially ambitious planting? 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:41.920 As as well, and as well as that being subsidized by the ecosystem services and agroforestry integration benefits that you're getting from farm forestry. 00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:52.159 I guess that's the point we made about what I've learned from farmers, including Andrew, but many others, with regard to everyone's economic situation and aspirations are very different. 00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:55.599 Um, some people won't do the harvesting themselves. 00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:05.360 Um, what we're excited about now is is uh that we've had 40 years, we've sort of proved a concept, and that's what the guitar is, that's what the house is, it's furniture. 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:09.199 Uh, we've got people to use the timber, we've got to get over that hurdle. 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.400 Is it any good? 00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:12.320 Does the guitar sound good? 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:13.679 Does this work? 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:21.679 And then you're into the point where, okay, what does it actually take to have a market chain that takes that timber and works it through? 00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.719 And what are the issues of economies of scale? 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:32.159 Um, I don't know how big it could get, but I'm more interested in the diversity of activity. 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:38.159 Like a lot of my peers in forestry, and you're referring to the sort of thinking, you know, there's only two species. 00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:42.559 You grow nitins or bluegum for pole pulling, you grow pines for for Sorlocks. 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:44.000 Uh, that's fine. 00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:54.559 I'm not saying that shouldn't exist, but gee, that that's really limiting the opportunity because there's every tree grows wood and they vary tremendously and have these qualities. 00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:00.480 So I'm really keen to see whether we can break through, but it's going to take another generation to build up that scale. 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:03.119 And I'm not sure what the industry will look like. 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:15.360 I certainly know that diesel increases is really threatening commercial forestry as we've known it, because a lot of it's a very low-value product transported and harvested with a lot of diesel. 00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:18.000 We're actually doing it a different way. 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:24.320 A very low volume, very high value product moved with a small amount of diesel. 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:31.599 So maybe there's an opportunity there, it lies in the well, we're we're looking at maintaining the chain of custody with that log you see down there. 00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:33.039 So that's just been harvested. 00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:56.960 Gron bought his mill over, and uh we use the farm track with uh and to load it and so on, and then going into the um forest products mill to um a kiln dry, and then by each step, we're adding value from air drying to kiln drying, and then seeing how we can go with our marketing and try and sell the story of farm-growing timber. 00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:04.079 Or we've even got a um person on the farm now who builds tiny homes and um and does a lot of natural building. 00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:15.679 Maybe we can tap and do some higher value adding component there, which we are having discussions about on small-scale stuff, maintain a chain of custody and go right to the high value end. 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:16.960 Yep. 00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:25.679 I agree that if I'd done forestry the way I was taught, we wouldn't have been able to build a house and the land value would have gone down. 00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:30.639 So that I'm passionate about what's the alternative, how can we do it very differently? 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:31.840 Um, we're starting. 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:36.320 I don't know what it's going to look like across the landscape, but I'm excited about what's happening here. 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:40.079 We have come up to time, everybody. 00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:41.840 Would you please give a massive hand to our guests? 00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:44.320 Rowan Reid, Andrew Stewart, and Josh on the Talk.