Full Transcript for INEOS Workshop Manuals

on this podcast than either Stu or myself. So we're actually just gonna kinda turn the mic over to you. and why don't you fill us in, talk a little bit about your conversation with Lynn, and then we could kind of bounce off of that. but we want to give you the floor and you the time to speak, so please. Tom: Yeah, well, thanks for having me. It's good to be here. I gave her a call because I've had her on WhatsApp ever since the initial conversation way back. And so when I saw on the forum that things were kicking off, as it were, I thought I'll get in touch and see what she's got to say about it. And I had a little list of kind of points that I put to her. and suggestions as to how we might get around it. And I've had a of mixed response to that. what she did say was that the only reason that we got access to basically the dealer level manual in the first place was that when we put pressure on them, the previous time, they didn't have anything prepared and they knew it was going to take time to get something prepared. And for them, the quickest way to make the problem go away was just to give us all access to the dealer software. I don't think that was ever meant to happen, but it was like, this is something we can do now. So they just did it. The issue is that Whoever the software company is who hosts that for them charges them for every subscription. And I guess they're paying the same for each one of us as they are for each member of the dealer network. it was a kind of, it was obviously costing them a lot of money and they have, they've done a benchmarking exercise against other manufacturers and what they charge. for access to their software and a lot of them are extortionate. So her point to me was, you know, we're actually cheaper than other people out there. And I guess my response to that is, yeah, maybe you are, but it's really, really expensive. I mean, it's beyond what I would pay. I mean, I think it's a great resource. It's a bit slow. kind of, it runs a bit slow, but if you... If you need it, it's a really great thing to have, but it's not too grand a year great. Or £1,500 I think it is in the UK. What is it in dollars? Krabby: Might probably be like twenty Stu: Yeah, it's about... Krabby: twenty three, twenty four hundred dollars. Stu: It's, I think it's 2000 bucks. I can pull it up. Tom: Yeah. Stu: I have the email to hand. Tom: It's not small change. That's the long and short of it. think the Australians are getting charged 3,000 Australian, which is, a Stu: Yeah. Tom: chunk of money. Stu: It's a straight $2,000 here. So it's 210 for a Tom: Yeah. Stu: month. Three months is 600, six is 1,100, and then it's two grand for the full year. Tom: Yeah, so. Stu: Gosh, better sign up on the leap year, right? Tom: Yeah. So I. Yeah, Krabby: That'll probably be an extra charge for that. Tom: I kind of I I told her that by far the biggest preference of owners and what it would seem going through the comments on the thread and in the forum is

just give us a PDF, you know, just we just we just want the sort of Haynes manual type thing. don't know if the Americans are familiar with those, but Krabby: Yep, we have Tom: yeah. You have them. Yeah. that for me, that would be fine. But and I thought that would be quite a good solution. However, her response to that was that it's going to it's got all sorts of legal difficulties. Again, thinking like a CEO, she's obviously worried about all sorts of potential situations where the manual is out of date. And so there's been some recall or update or whatever that's not reflected in the manual. And then if the manual is an official in EOS manual and somebody's carried out repair that was based on old advice, you know, there's some sort of claim in there. And I don't know. I I suggested, why can't you just put a print a disclaimer on, know, this manual is accurate at the time of printing, et cetera, et cetera. But She's pretty cold on that idea. It's not been ruled out, but she said, again, it's going to take time. And I think the issue, as I alluded to earlier, is that they just don't have the free staff. I think they run a pretty tight ship. And I don't think she's got a whole load of minions who she can just hand the project over to and say, right, just go and make that happen. I think that's why we got access to the dealer manual in the first place, because it was a quick fix and it wasn't that hard to do, you know. The next suggestion that I made was that, well, why can't we just have like a one week access or a one day access? Because even at the current pricing pro rata, a day would be affordable. And so if you had a problem and you think, I really want to know how to do this job, you could buy access for a day. Memorized video screen recorder, whatever that particular section of the manual and then that would that would do and you don't it would only cost you I don't know what one 360 fifths of two thousand days, but you know, it wouldn't be too much money and But the issue that they've got is that their sign-on process when you sign up for a month, it's a manual process There's a person at the other end who processes your application and allocates you a login or whatever. And so that's again, more creating more work for them, which they don't want. think, so that's, I think I've just go check the email, but I'm pretty sure that is a flat no. Stu: Yeah, with regards to the data entry, I've sort of thought it was being done manually because he spelt my name wrong. the login. I was like, okay, all right, somebody is sitting at a desk in London just typing away like furiously here. Tom: Yeah, her email reads, not possible to offer shorter time access than one month. It's a manual process and we would not be able to cope with the admin or immediacy globally. So I think it would become a service issue because you might want access to the manual today and they might not be able to process it for five days and then you get access on Friday instead of Monday or whatever it is and then. You've got other things on on Friday. It would just, I can see it. Yeah. I can see why that would be an issue if it's a manual process. And again, you might say, well, why don't they just automate it? But I guess then they need a team to do the automation. And I think they're at the point with this now where they don't want to spend any more money on it. You know, that's the feeling that I get. I Stu: Yeah. And also they're on the hook with who they partnered with to actually develop these because they're going to be dictated Tom: Mm-hmm. Stu: by that company's software and how they operate. that's something that I've sort of picked up in other conversations. Yeah. Tom: I did make a suggestion that if they could, and I haven't had a no to this, but I did make a suggestion if they could essentially introduce a sort of print page option into the electronic manual so that, you know, I mean, there would be people out there who would just spend ages and print the entire thing out and then they've got the PDF that they always wanted. But. The one thing that I did, the impression I did get from Lynn is she doesn't, she wouldn't care if people did that. If this isn't a, this is our intellectual property kind of thing. She just wants kind of happy customers, but at the same time, she can't afford to throw any more money at it. That's reading between the lines. That's the impression I get. So I... I wouldn't rule that out, but whether the software company would agree to that is a completely different, you know, they'd be daft to, wouldn't they? Krabby: Well, yeah, I I I can see where you're coming from from there. And and I I mean I I don't know if if Lynn shared any numbers with you, but but for that two thousand dollars a year, is Ineos making any money off of that? Or is that pretty much it's gonna cost us about two thousand dollars a year to give you this access, so that's what we're charging you? Or are they making money I you know, I know like Land Rover I think makes a pretty good chunk of change off of there. Tom: I didn't, well, I did ask that specific question. I didn't get precise numbers, but she implied that what it costs them to issue a license is not far off what we're paying. I would imagine there's some profit in there, I'm guessing that, because at the end of the day, this thing would have been pitched and set up as a dealer network. And so the software company would have run their numbers based on, I don't know. 200 dealers worldwide or something. I don't know how many there are. So they'll have done their numbers based on that. And yeah, in an ideal world, that ought to mean that they could afford to give us something cheaper. But you can imagine it from their point of view. This is like a little sort of cash cow for the software company. So why would they give it away cheap if they don't have to? Although I did point out to her that At the prices they're charging, no one's going to do it.

mean, the uptake is going to be a handful of people who are prepared to pay that, would imagine. Krabby: Do you think that was or or did you get any sense of that that's kind of part of the plan? is just to make people disinterested in it so it's one less thing to worry about? 'Cause the numbers I mean that's crazy Tom: No, didn't. Krabby: expensive. Tom: Yeah, I didn't get that impression. Actually, that was there was a lot of speculation, you know, and I think people have speculated that it's the dealer network pushing back against it. They don't want customers to have access to it to make us more reliant on the dealer network. I didn't get that impression. I have to say I get the feeling from Lynn's point of view that she's quite happy for us to have access to it. The issue is it's costing them way too much money to supply it for free to everybody and they've got to recoup that somehow. I did make the suggestion of communal logins and suggested that perhaps we did something through the forum and she said, yet that was a possibility, she wanted to, obviously we'd have to work out how that was monetized and et cetera, et cetera, and how it would work. And not being particularly techie myself, it would be quite a complicated thing to work out when you think about it. But if it were possible to do that, then that would be a great thing. maybe, I mean, there's various owners clubs as well, aren't there? mean, maybe each owners Stu: Yeah. Tom: club could have their own access and then, you know, if you join the owners club, you also get access to the manual. That would be an option. I didn't mention the owners clubs to her. I only mentioned the forum, but either way, I think that would be something that would would be quite useful for me. think the real benefit of the manual is for just little jobs like when I had to wire up all the 12 volt system and you've got to start taking off interior trim. It's actually, it's really Stu: Mm-hmm. Tom: helpful to know how all that goes together and what order you take pieces off and which parts are screwed and which parts are clipped and, you know, so that you don't snap things and break things. I think that's where I would still really like to have access to the manual, but it's not worth £1,500, unfortunately. You know, I'd rather break a few plastic clips. Krabby: Yeah, and Stu: Nothing. Krabby: I don't see I I totally agree with you. And and that's where I I don't understand why there would be any like legal things with that. Like, okay, somewhere in the technical manual where it shows you how to swap out a fuel injector, okay. Yeah, that might change. But like the little normal everyday stuff, yeah, I don't see why that would cause a problem. you know, we're not talking about taking apart the transmission. Tom: Yeah, mean, one of my suggestions was, you when I suggested we just want a PDF, was we don't need half the stuff that's in that manual. You know, I mean, technically, I think, I don't know about that American code reader, but the GlobeGuard code reader is apparently capable of programming injectors. So you could theoretically change your own injectors and code them into the car with the GlobeGuard scan tool. But I can't see me taking on a job like that. And I, and there's, there's, there's loads of big jobs that, especially when the car's under warranty, there's loads of big jobs that the average DIY person is just not going to tackle. What we need is like the basics and a whole load of like torque settings for all the suspension components and stuff like that. Torque settings for every nut would be really handy. and just like, and the stuff involving accessories and how to take things apart so that you can fit a 12 volt system, all that sort of stuff, the fairly sort of basic stuff. I think that's all we need. I'm not going to be changing the gearbox anytime soon. I hope. I think, yeah, this could be done. I did ask her about you know, could they supply the data to a third party, you know, whether that's an owner's group or the forum or whatever. And we organize an unofficial manual and then they're not legally tied to it. And we can have our own printout and we just, you know, we just run it themselves. I don't see how that has any legal difficulties for them. But she didn't say no to that actually. She did say, yeah, okay, I'll think about it. And that's one of the things that she is gonna get back to me about. I also made a suggestion, somebody DM'd me on the forum. I'll not name him in case he doesn't wanna be named, with a suggestion that... Owners of the original vehicles like the 23, 24, the people that put the deposits down, you know, pre-production, they're the ones who were effectively promised a manual and they kind of, you know, the promise is diluted as time went on. And so he'd made the suggestion that those people should be given free access to the manual, whereas perhaps people who bought in 25, 26 maybe don't get it. It's not going to be the most popular suggestion with, but I did put it to Lynn and she's again said, okay, I'm going to come back to you on that. that wasn't the flat note either. Krabby: I've I've actually had that very thought. the way in my mind, and I know it was maybe a little different depending on the region you're at, and obviously the Australian guys were sort of first up to bat with that. But that was my thing. If you were a pre-order person, if if you laid down your four hundred dollars to reserve a spot and then you were four thousand dollars or whatever it was to lock in, you're different in my mind than the guy who just went now and bought a brand new one. and so I Tom: Mm-hmm. Krabby: I could understand why that might be a good angle to take. And they can play it off that way too. Tom: Yeah, I think so. And I think also, if you remember before they were released, there was this whole series of videos released on building the Grenadier, I think the series was called, wasn't it? And it was

mentioned in that there would be a manual, I believe. It was mentioned somewhere. I'm pretty sure it was in that. I don't want to misquote that actually, but I'm pretty sure it was certainly mentioned somewhere that sort of, you know, workshop manual was going to be available. So you can understand with those early adopters who paid upfront and waited, maybe do deserve to have it for free continually. So I don't know where they go with that. But yeah, the long and short of it is at the end of all this where we are now. They're not going to change the pricing and they're not going to give us any less than a one month subscription. So it's not great news overall, but I kind of, get the feeling that if we keep pushing, we will probably get some other solution. So I think this is probably the beginning, not the end of a saga in terms of getting something that we want. I mean, she's pretty good to deal with, Lyn. She's pretty straight back. so I think, yeah, she said, I will commit to looking into some of the commercial suggestions. I'll come back on this. That's in the email. So it wasn't just a no. It was a no to this, no to that, but I'll consider some other options. Stu: Yeah, this might be a really good opportunity, you know, after we finish here of actually putting the poll together and just asking the community and go, Hey, you know, if you've got to pay for it somehow, what would be your suggestions? And whether it's, you know, as a, as a group, we fund, let's say five, you know, access or logins that that's it. I mean, it was, we're paid for them. You've got to supply it and then. You know, it can be rotated through and we'll work out how long your access is and all the rest of it. So at least then we've got some sort of direct access to the latest information. Or even ask them cheekily, it's like, hey, can we just get a couple of licenses for this? Because the two or three licenses that it issue, let's say to local clubs or whatever, it pales compared to 5,000 people signing up for it where... You've got your lucky lose or go and look at this. That's nice. This is nice. And then they won't log in for another nine months, if at all, which I suspect and they've obviously got the data that most of the people that go, yeah, I want my license. I had a look at it a couple of times, you know, and haven't really used it a great Tom: Yeah. Stu: deal. Tom: I asked her about that. She didn't have the numbers, but I asked her what the uptake was. she said that was something she said she would get back to me on. It's not mentioned in the email, but it was something that we raised on the phone call. I suspect you're right. I think that most people logged in, had to play around with it, and then they haven't really looked at it again. So yeah, I can say, and if each one of those is costing them, you know. potentially a thousand bucks maybe more then you can see why they they have an issue and that'll be per annum as well so I don't know what what the profit margin will be on one car but they could very rapidly eat into that if they if they spend a thousand quid a year on a software license for something that the guy only uses twice in five years Krabby: Right. Stu: Yeah. Krabby: you you mentioned you mentioned Globeguard. now I remember they were sort of the forerunner of of figuring this stuff out. And their early I iteration allowed you to reset the service code or the service interval and and some other stuff. But I personally and I would imagine our two or three listeners might not be super familiar with how GlobeGuard fits into all this. did Lynn specifically mention Globeguard? Or that's just something that that you connected the dots on or we as a forum did? Tom: I, well, it was me that put GlobeGuard in touch with Ineos. So when I heard about the GlobeGuard product, I immediately ordered one and I spoke to GlobeGuard and I said, are you in touch with Ineos? And they said, no. And I had the email for the Ineos technical director. And so I contacted him and said, cause I knew, cause I'd kept the pressure on Lin, not I wasn't. calling her every week. But every now and again, I would ping her a message and say, you know, how are we getting on with the code reader, because that was something that was particularly important to me. And she had, you know, there was a constant stream of sort of conversations between us as they were working towards it. And they had started looking at some company out in India, I believe, to try and develop something. But I thought, well, if Globeguard have just gone out and built it, and it works. then, you know, and they're based in Europe, you know, they're in Switzerland. They're just, you know, they're not actually very far from Hamburg. So surely that's a good tie up. So I put them in touch and prodded them a few times and they did start talking. That was months ago. And so when I was on the call with Lynn, just this week, I asked her, you know, did you manage to get anything done? And she said, yes, that is actually going to be announced. in the next week. So they've signed a deal. I think the way it's going to work is the globe guard product will be available to buy as an accessory through Ineos. And I guess I don't know what the commercial side of it is. I don't know how much they're going to charge for it. I had a look on the Ineos website to see if it was there. I didn't see it. But apparently it's going to appear very soon as an accessory. So that is now a done deal. So, and to be honest, for me, that's more important than the manual. I think having that piece of mind, know, when I was out in Morocco, you know, I was in some pretty remote areas and it's always, it's just a concern that, you know, a light comes up on the dash, you don't know what it means. And, you know, you're on reduced power trying to get through the sand dunes or something. You want to be able to put it right. That was a big deal for me. yeah, I think that's really good. We'll see

how it pans out and how the pricing is and all the rest of it when it comes out. Krabby: Right, because if I'm just I just quickly went to the Globeguard website and it lists it as Seven hundred forty eight euro. So that's what, maybe just shy of a thousand dollars? Eight fifty, nine hundred, something like that. Stu: Yeah, it's about 900 or so. Krabby: yeah. now it doesn't say if there's a an annual fee or anything, but that's just what's on there as of today. like you said, if if it's an official Ineos thing and they come out with it, there might be a different version of that. Or or maybe then for us early adopters, there's a a discount or or something. but it's pretty smart on their part to not start from scratch. If someone's already gone through all the work, then they can easily kinda help But it's you know, it's kinda there already. Tom: Yeah, I think I think if they were going to develop their own. Yeah, sorry, if they were going to develop their own, I think it would have taken years. I like I said earlier, I don't think they have a huge amount of resources in terms of staff just kicking around waiting for something to do. I think it's obviously a kind of skeleton crew. Everybody's got their own sort of teams and tasks and anything else that comes in. I guess they would look at it and say, this has got to have a really commercial side to it in order for us to make it happen. So yeah, if somebody else had gone ahead and built one, I'm sure that's an ideal solution for them rather than having to go and build it themselves. And it does work. I mean, I've tried it out. The globe guard is good. Krabby: Is it does it require internet access or Tom: No. It works offline. So all the data is on the actual device. So you could be in the middle of nowhere with no signal and it will work. Krabby: Which is critical. Tom: I think you'd need internet if you want to update it. Krabby: Right. But if you're like you said, you're in the middle of Morocco and something goes squirrely, you you don't need internet access. Tom: Yeah, no, you don't need it. No, which is which is what you need. And the other good thing, I think, from an INEOS point of view is because they don't do an awful lot of software updates. You know, I mean, a lot of manufacturers, they update every quarter. Krabby: Yeah. Tom: INEOS have I mean, I think my car's only had two updates in three years. So that's the potential is that you've paid for this. piece of kit they do an update and it no longer works. if they're not going to update it that often then that should be pretty good. know that globe guard I think there's a fee if you want to update it. There's no so if your car software hasn't been updated for three years then you don't have to spend anything further with globe guard because the piece you know that the device is still current. But if was to be a software update and your car was updated then you presumably need to update the device as well and I think outside the first 12 months I believe globe guard charge for that how that will work if there's a tie-up within IOS maybe I don't know it might be might be a bit cheaper hopefully because it's not I wouldn't say it was a cheat you know there are there are much cheaper scan tools out there but This one seems to be able to do everything that you would want on the Grenadier. Whereas others are just generic OBD2 things. There's not that much that they can do in my experience. Krabby: Right. The one the one I have can clear codes and give you some basic stuff, but it's it's not specific to the vehicle. It does the same thing on my wife's car, you know. Tom: Yeah, when I used it, it can access all the ECUs, like all of them. you know, the engine, gearbox, I mean, I can't even remember the name of some of them, but they didn't seem to be a fault. I I tried to create faults by pulling fuses and Krabby: Yeah. Tom: upsetting the car. Stu: you Tom: And it did manage to clear them all. It found them all and cleared them all. So, yeah. Stu: Yeah, I mean, the lowest point of entry for that is, you know, the oil change or service interval light, make that thing go away. And then the other one is if, you know, when you disconnect the battery without a vehicle being totally asleep, you know, you get all of the airbag warnings and all the other stuff, as long as it can make that stuff go Tom: Yeah, I've had all that. Stu: away, then that's, that's, you know, a really good benchmark. Otherwise it's a trip to the dealer. Krabby: Right. Stu: And the fact that any are still actually dealing directly with globe guard is maybe they're going to allow a little bit more because they can from the manufacturer's side to make it easier for globe guard to do stuff. and you know, in that same vein, it's like just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. And there's certain stuff that quite frankly, I would never want to change, you know, some of the settings on the vehicle. And that's something that because NES are involved that they, you know, can, they can have a conversation and it can be guided with a, you know, any also like, Hey, this is where we're leaning into. then globe guards is like, well, this is what we want to provide. And they meet somewhere in between rather than, let's do absolutely everything. Because I think, you know, people can get into a bit of, a bit of bother, you know, with their own vehicle. It's easy to break these things. Tom: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I am so un-technical when it comes to kind of IT and stuff that, you know, I wouldn't, I don't know what the capabilities of the globe guard are in terms of reprogramming things or changing parameters on, you know, like if you were clever, you could probably use it to delete your DPF or something, but I wouldn't know where to begin with something like that. And you probably give yourself a whole load of headaches somewhere else because it's all connected. These systems are so complicated that you've really got to

know your stuff to do these things. Krabby: yeah, one of the things that and you know, and I'm probably wrong in this, but you know, from way back in the beginning, right, a lot of this stemmed from the original Defender was going away. And that was kind of the impetus for the whole project. And I think in so many ways the reality of recreating that, despite Jim's genuine enthusiasm and despite the the wishes to produce that, you cannot make a car in twenty three, four, five, twenty twenty six and seven anything remotely like that in terms of simplicity. And so as a former Land Rover owner, you know, if you were a series owner slash defender owner. I mean, there was one book that essentially didn't change for sixty years. You know, if serious guys will know this, but the Green Bible, right? I mean it's it's I don't know, shoot, four, five, six inches thick. And pretty much has everything you could ever do on a on a defender prior to the introduction of the computers with the TDI. But other than that, I mean they were essentially the same vehicle for sixty years, right? this obviously Tom: Mmm. Krabby: is far more complicated than that, even though that was the goal. So Like you you know, you said earlier, a a a PDF of how to do basic stuff would satisfy a lot of people, I think. Tom: Yeah, I agree. mean, to be fair to any of us, it's way less complicated than most other modern cars. You know, I think Krabby: Yes. Tom: I think in terms of the number of systems on the car, there are way fewer than there are on all other other brands. And there's also less stuff. You know, it's a mechanical handbrake. You know, it doesn't have the paddle shift gearbox, which you could easily have with with the ZF HP8 or whatever it is, that gearbox can have a paddle shift, but they didn't add that. They've done all sorts of kind of, I guess they've simplified it as much as they can. I mean, you guys don't get the diesel, so you don't have all the emissions issues that we have over here. That's my big concern, to be honest, is when all that breaks. Because I've had, I run quite a big fleet of vehicles. That stuff is the first thing to go on modern diesels. It's the AdBlue systems, it's the DPS and stuff like that. Stu: This is true. Just in that vein of, let's just say, an in-depth maintenance to a vehicle, did she actually comment on the nod with regards to the manuals and the owners that do their own stuff? Because that's the crux of this, of, I don't want to be bound by a dealer, or I'm in the bush in Australia and I'm a thousand miles or thousand kilometers from my dealer. That was a whole... A lot, as we were saying about the selling points of the vehicle was because of that, I'm able to actually run it. Whereas you said you run a fleet of vehicles, you know, Tom: Mm-hmm. Stu: when you've got a few things of even the same type, they break and you need to be able to get on do it because downtime is money. Tom: Yeah, we didn't go too far into the weeds from that,

but I forwarded the message I got from the forum member who was Australian, who mentioned that sort of stuff. So she's had eyes on that and responded. And I think they know that. I think they know that selling in the US and Australia, which I think are the two biggest markets, is contingent on people feeling like they've got support. And it's very hard to give in these geographically massive locations, they're never going to be able to have enough dealers to cover Australia. So they have to have alternative systems. And I think the manual and the globe guard are definitely going to be part of that. I think I think they get it. But yeah, I think they've this is this is a kind of bean counter decision in terms of the the pricing of the manual. think that's that's the impression that I get. One thing I will say on the, you know, fixing it yourself side of things I mentioned to quite separately in the same conversation that it's interesting how some parts on the vehicle are not separable in the parts manual. So when I was in the desert, I smashed the steering damper off. And when I got back a few weeks later, the car was due for its MOT, which for the American listeners is like an annual safety inspection that all cars get here. And they failed it on the ball joint on the same tie rod that the steering damper attaches to. And so I called INEOS and said, you know, it's failed. Can you replace it? And I had to go to not my usual dealer actually, because they were so busy they couldn't get me in for weeks. So I went to the one up at Sterling and they were pretty good. got it in and they changed the part. they said, because I'd originally said, look, it's just a ball joint. If you, be honest, if you just give me the ball joint, I'll do it myself. And they were like, no, you can't, we can't do a warranty repair unless we, you know, we can sell you the part. But If you want the part replaced under warranty, then we have to carry out the repair. So I said, okay, how much is the part? Thinking, you know, it'll be 50 quid for a ball joint. And they were like, it's 700 pounds. And I thought, what? And then they explained that they don't replace the ball joint. They replace the entire tie rod. So two ball joints, the reducer, the lock nuts. and the tie rod itself, the whole unit is one part number. So that's all they can replace. And I mentioned this to Lynn because as somebody who runs a business myself, if I was throwing money away like that, I'd want to know about it. And so I said, did you know this? Do you know that you're essentially replacing a 700 pound part? it probably only costs them 200 quid, but even so, they're they're throwing money away by replacing this whole part when only one small part of it is actually broken. And she said, yes, we've got a team working on that because they, I think they had an issue. If you had a problem with your axle, they would replace the whole axle, which is thousands. And they're breaking it down so that in the future, which is great news for us when the warranties do run out. So two years time for me, if it's more modular, if you are able to buy the actual part that's broken rather than have to replace the whole unit, that's going to be, you know, when it's coming out of your own pocket, that's going to be really important. So they have a team looking at that at the moment. So that was good to hear. Krabby: It's it's funny you say that. One of the common problems, I don't know if if it happened to yours, but the little plastic trim ring at the end of the handbrake, they they flake, they they chip, right? So mine was like that the day I got it and I I said to the folks at the deal Stu: Mm-hmm. Krabby: who were great folks, I said, Can you guys just fix that for me? And they're like, Yeah, but we have to replace the entire thing. As in the handbrake, the cable They have to rip apart the whole interior. Like I I was like, no, because you're gonna do more damage by taking all that apart to fix a little plastic ring. Which now they can replace just the ring. But at the time, that's what they said they were gonna have to do. So it would have I mean, even from a just a labor standpoint, on warranty, it would have cost them hundreds and hundreds of dollars to replace a five cent little piece. So that makes total sense that that maybe is something they want to revisit. Tom: Yeah, also with the drive shafts, you know, that's been a common failure. The front CV drive shaft, you know, on the drive shaft, they replaced the whole shaft. They don't just replace the CV joint. I don't know whether they're getting around to that given how many they've probably had to do. But this is all good news for us though, because I guess by the time we get to the end of the warranty period for the first cars, they're going to have all this sorted out. And so when we need parts, We're not going to have to go and buy the Krabby: Mm-hmm. Tom: whole unit, you know? Stu: Yeah. And with them breaking it down like that, the possibility of you being able to buy an off-brand part where you have an oil filter that's made by Marl and it's got an Ineos sign on one version, which is 23 pounds. And then the generic one that they make is 12 quid. It's that same manufacturer, but it doesn't have their logo or whatever on it. And then that makes the operation and maintenance long-term costings so much easier for us. Krabby: Well, a p a perfect example of that, Tom, I'm sorry not to cut off. if you buy so the engine, the B fifty eight, the so the gasoline, the petrol version, is the same, essentially, that's in our vehicles, BMW vehicles, and Toyota Supras. And it's cheaper to buy a Toyota oil filter for that engine than it is to buy a BMW one or an Ineos one. It's the exact same part, right? It's just whose sticker Tom: Mm-hmm. Krabby: is on the box. So even though it's the OEM product, the fact that it's coming from BMW makes it more expensive, quote unquote, than it does from a Toyota dealer.

So, I mean that's that's spot on. Tom: Yeah, that's all. mean, to be honest, for the last few services I've done, I've been buying the service kits from there's a company here called. I think it's just called Euro Carparts. It's just like a kind of just a car parts reseller and you can go in there and now they've even got it on the system. So you just give them your number plate and they look up. yeah, it's the Ineos Grenadier. It's the diesel. It's this and they'll have so you can get. All the brake pads, brake discs, all the filters just straight off the shelf, no problem. And they're a fraction of the cost as if you'd gone to the main dealer. But it's the same stuff. It's the Mali filter. There's other brands actually doing filters as well. But yeah, it's the same stuff. yeah, that's all good. it's all looking pretty good in terms of when we get to the end of that warranty period that we're going to be okay in terms of getting our hands on bits and bobs. I guess there'll be other, you know, like trim parts. You're only going to be able to get them from, from Ineos. And that the Tremec transfer box, I don't know if anybody else is using that. So that's probably a, that would be an expensive chunk if something went wrong with that. But the engine and gearbox and most other bits you're going to be I mean, I managed to find a wheel bearing. I had to change a wheel bearing after I had a bit of an incident with some locking wheel studs. And I, the wheel bearing that Ineos use on the front is an Iveco part. And I was able to get that for a good bit less than Ineos wanted. And it's the ACE identical. It's the same thing. It took a bit of research to find it, but yeah, it's the same thing. Stu: Yeah, and they wanted to sell you the entire assembly. Krabby: Well it Stu: Not just the bearing. Tom: I don't know if they did actually. I think on that one they would have just sold the bearing. I think they would. I certainly didn't have Stu: Yeah. And that does... Krabby: Well I Tom: to buy a new axle. Stu: Yeah, and that comes back to what you mentioned earlier, where, you know, with the manuals and everything, the reality of using them on the ground is you can generally see how something comes apart. Or if we've got a parts manual, you can do that because that's the exploded diagram, right? But the one thing that you don't have and you don't want to guess at are the torque values, which is, you know, a really Tom: Yeah, and I mentioned that, yeah. Stu: low hanging fruit for them to go, right, this is the printed torque values. for the diesel, is for, you know, let's say for the different specs or whatever, they can bind the document, which is, you know, an easy, quick fix to, you know, throw some red meat at the crowd, so to speak. Tom: Yeah, I agree. think stuff like that, because there are certain torque values on there that are quite surprising. Like I think the lock nuts on the tie rod are some I can't remember the number, but some crazy high torque value. And so is the the wheel. I guess you call it the wheel bearing retaining nut. That that, you know, holds the kind of screws onto the end of the drive shaft. That's got a really high torque value on that as well. And so that's something you might not know. You might think, yeah, that's enough. And actually you're way off because it is really high. So yeah, stuff like that would be handy. And also I think a wiring diagram as well, know, if you're trying to like, when I wired up the car before I went to Morocco, I wanted to reuse there's four outlets on the roof. I wanted two of them to be power going up. And I wanted two of them to be, let me get this right, what have I got? So I wanted to solar on the roof. And I wanted to be able to use one of the spare things to bring it back into the car, which meant I need to intercept that wire somewhere inside the car. And trying to find where that was, you know, was a real pain, it would have been a lot easier. did, I managed to find something online and it was, but it was a lot of messing about trying to, you know, find out where it, where it, where it came. was fairly obvious where it came through the roof, but I wanted to intercept it closer to the fuse box and just try to kind of, if they had the color coding and all that sort of stuff on there, it would have been so handy. It was a bit of a sort of trial and error and a lot of messing about with circuit testers and you know. to get there. I got there now and it's worked great. yeah, that would have been handy. Krabby: just and you may not know the answer to this and it more likely than not didn't come up in conversation, but it might be food for thought in the future. in the states because things are fragmented, but there's something called right to repair and and it's a legislative thing where companies have to make available and and one of the right to repair things that happened happens here. John Deere as a company is what comes to mind where they were blocking like farmers couldn't access their own tractors because they didn't have the software. So instead of being able to fix something at home, now you gotta take it to the dealer and the expense is crazy. is that something that Ineos that's on their radar? Tom: I don't know, but I've have heard of the John Deere case and there was one there's a there's a Scottish YouTuber that I follow. I what's he called? Scottish car clan. And he's quite often kind of ranting about these issues. There was one he highlighted the other day where a guy I forget the brand of car. It was a small, cheap French car and he he needed to change his rear brake shoes. And so he bought the shoes for like 50 quid. And he went to change the shoes and then realized that because it's an electric handbrake, he needed to wind back the calipers so that he could fit the new shoes in. And he started doing a bit of research, couldn't find out how to do it. And then eventually he had to call the dealer and say, you know, how do

you do this? And they were like, you've got to bring it to us. And he was like, yeah, but I want to do it on my driveway. And they were like, well, you can buy the software. for 2000 pounds a year and then you tap a couple of keys on the keyboard and the electronic handbrake automatically winds back. But that's the only way to do it. I mean, I guess if you were clever, you could maybe cut the wires and touch a couple of wires together and get it to wind back by itself and then you'd have to splice it all back together. But you know, it's that kind of thing that's really starting to piss a lot of people off because, you know, Is it your car or is it have you just got a subscription? know, it's it's like, you know, it's cars becoming a sort of subscription service. So to pay two grand just to change the set of brake pads that cost 50 quid. Yeah, it's a bit of an issue, which is why it's great that Grenadier doesn't have an electric parking brake. But, you know, and I think Stu: Very true. Tom: we we don't have I don't think in the UK we have a right to repair. But yeah, it's one of these situations where the law hasn't caught up with technology, because this was never an issue when everything was just mechanical. If you felt you had the knowledge and you got the tools, then there's nothing stopping you doing it. now you can't do anything without the right software on a lot of modern cars. So I think actually in that respect the Grenadier is not too bad. You on some cars Krabby: Well, yes. Tom: you change a headlight and you've got to have the headlight recoded to the car. Stu: Yeah, it's insanity, which I mean, that does come back to the infield repair ability, which was something that, you know, when they did that video series of making the Grenadier or developing the Grenadier, that was trumpeted a lot. It's like, you know, you, the whole flying spanners thing and all of that, which sounds great, but the reality is that that's, that's not happening unless you're somebody very, very important to them. but. Yeah, is what you're saying there because we got the manuals on one side and then you've got being able to apply what the manual says, which is the other side of the coin. So you're a chap there trying to change some brake calipers or the brake pads or the brake shoes. He knows what needs to be done, but he's incapable of being able to do it because he hasn't got the right special tooling. Tom: Yeah, I was trying to think of things on the grenadier that could be a real problem. You know, if you're out in the back of beyond and you know, what could go wrong with it that could be a real issue. And there'll be a few things, but in general, I actually don't think it's too bad. If you've got the code reader, the globe garden, can... you can clear faults that come up. And obviously the faults are there for a reason to tell you what's wrong. So hopefully the fault will then direct you somewhere you can start looking at something that might be the cause

of the problem. But I'm not aware of, you like I think, you know, you could change a startup, you could change an alternator, you could change belts, pulleys and stuff like that. You won't need any special programming to be able to do that, I don't think. And I've already, I changed the set of front brake pads of mine the other day. That was pretty easy. Sorry, no, it was the rears I did. I haven't done the fronts yet. I've bought them. But that was pretty easy. And winding the handbrake back is just the traditional, know, you just screw it back in. So that, that was all pretty straightforward. And when I broke, when I broke it in the desert, you know, snapped the steering damper off. It was just, you know, get underneath it with some spanners and take the whole thing off and chuck it in the boot and carry on. So, yeah, it was, I think it's pretty good from that point of view. I can't think of Stu: Mm-hmm. Tom: anything that's going to be too difficult. And in terms of clearing the codes, because I've got confidence that the globe guard can do it, you could probably get yourself home. You know what I mean? If something happens. You you might have to keep clearing a code or something like that keeps coming up. You clear it again, but I think you could get yourself home. Krabby: Yeah, I I think a a scary term if you can't deal with or if you can't fix it is the whole limp home mode, which limp home limp home geez, I can't even speak. you all know what I'm trying to say. you know, if that happens when you're on the highway, that's one thing. But if you're in the middle of nowhere and you can only go five miles per hour and you no longer have access to to I you know, well, lucky for us, low range is a manual thing. But like that kind of stuff is scary. The more things become electronic that if something goes squirrely, you you can't do anything other than literally Tom: Yeah. Krabby: limp home. Tom: Yeah, think because reduced power in some situations just like if you were towing or if you were in thick deep sand, you just simply might not have enough power to make any progress. But again, you can reset the codes and so long as they don't immediately reoccur. Generally with these things, they're of intermittent. So I would hope that you'd be able to to get going. Worst case scenario, maybe I would imagine water would probably be your biggest enemy. You know, if you've got water in a connection somewhere and it's causing issues, but then, mean, okay, it would just be a case of you're going to have to start going through plug by plug, unplugging things, spraying some water dispersant in there, plugging it back together and just work your way around until you find the one that's causing the issue. I think, did I try running it without a speed? wheel speed sensor. I can't remember if I did now. But again, some cars will go into if you even just losing a wheel speed sensor will put the car into low power mode. I think I think on the Grenadier it just gives you a reduced braking warning. I don't think it actually drops drops power. And, know, and it would come up with all the you know, it would say traction control not available, ABS not available, Stu: Mm-hmm. Tom: all that sort of stuff. that's a fairly common thing on a four-wheel drive, think, especially if you're driving through like forest into sticks and stuff and something comes up and snags the wire and takes out one of your wheel speed sensors. another thing I had once was I got a stone inside, you know, where the tone ring is on the, I think it was on the rear wheels, there's Stu: I was going to mention that, Tom: a little gap at the top where small stones can get in. I was lucky because I think if the stone gets jammed it can actually bend the ring but on mine Stu: Yeah. Tom: it was just like this ting ting ting ting ting noise as the stone was going round and round but I did manage to get it out. yeah something like that happening in a remote area. I guess with the globe guard at least you could remove the stone straighten the ring if you had to and then clear the code with the globe guard and you're back to normal. Krabby: Yeah, I think part Stu: Yeah, that exact thing happened to a friend of mine and he was on the freeway coming back from Las Vegas. And for people that have never driven in America, it's touted, your speed limit's 65. It is not. When you're in between cities in the desert, it's just the same as in Europe before speed cameras were everywhere. People are going by at hundred miles an hour. And this chap, he got the stone caught in next to the tone ring, it bent it and all of a sudden, he's in low power mode. It's not a limp, but I think you're Tom: All right. Stu: like 45 miles an hour or something. And again, it was intermittent. He had some generic code reader that he managed to pull the codes on. I don't know if he reset something on it, but anyway, he managed to get it back and he got the dealer to do the repair and all the rest of it. But it's that. scenario where you get this cascade of errors and then you just because you've got all these codes you have a machine that will make them go away but you're like okay it comes back again this is comes back to the whole manual thing or at least having an abridged version where you can go all right this is what I need to start looking at you know this is a real problem so I need to get on the phone and say hey I need a I need a tow or and I need to you know get taken out of there which you know comes back the whole You know, you're in the bush, something happens. It's like, at what point do you go, okay, this is not viable. I need to turn around. And we need the technical documentation to able to make that call. Tom: Yeah, I think that's true, especially if you've got 20 codes. Because if you've got 20 codes and you clear them, you drive 10 yards and they all come back, then you're going to have to find the problem. And obviously, there's one code, finding the problem

will be a lot easier. But that is true with these modern cars. One code triggers another that triggers another and you don't know where to start with it. I guess there has to be an element of, you know, a bit of mechanical knowledge. If you're going to go somewhere remote, I think it's incumbent on you to have some kind of mechanical knowledge. So you've at least got a bit of an idea as to where you might look. So if you've just driven through a waterhole, then maybe you start thinking, okay, there's a wet connection somewhere. Or if you're driving on gravel or something like that, you might start looking at the, it's probably a wheel speed sensor or something like that, you So I guess it's, there's a bit of, I can see kind of both sides of that, but definitely, I think the manual is great. I mean, I'm not dissing the manual, but it's not worth 1500 pound a year. It just isn't, not to me anyway. Stu: No, same here, personally. Tom: Even if it was 400 quid, I would probably think quite hard about it. I would far rather just have something that wasn't as good, but had enough information and something that you buy once. Stu: Yeah, and as you mentioned, go on. Krabby: this is no, sorry. Go, go, go. Stu: As you mentioned earlier about them not, or indicating that they weren't going to pursue people that, let's say photocopy pages and share it around type of thing, or get screenshots. So you're going to end up with the normal stuff. Let's say, you know, the rear brake calipers when you want to change the pads. This is a procedure, that's it. It's going to pop up online. on individual groups, forums, Facebook pages, whatever. So you'll end up with like a crowd source hive mind hybrid manual anyway, where the normal stuff that comes up will be there. And as you just mentioned about water crossings and okay, there's still a new platform. right. You know, people have had them for a few years, but it's like after five or 10 years, it may be that, this plug actually is pretty vulnerable because it's in this area. and it gets too hot and then the securing clips go. So if you get these codes and you're just being through water, this is the first thing you check. And that's something that can only come from a mass of people that all have similar problems, putting it down. Tom: Yeah, yeah, I mean, a lot of cars have that, don't they? You know, like, I think the Australian Land Cruiser guys, they all know that the alternator is really low down. And if you go through water, there's a good chance your alternator is going to suck in a load of mud and stop charging. It's just it's just a peculiarity of that particular car. And I'll bet there will be things on the Grenadier that are like that. know, for sure. I think it could be something as simple as like because and I think this is again one of those things that they couldn't avoid because I think it's mandatory that the car has to go into park when the door is opened so that it can't just start crawling around with

no one in it. But it would only take one of those door sensors to stop working and it thinks the doors open when the doors closed and you won't be able to make progress. think actually if you plug the seatbelt in it does. does allow you to move. yeah, it's little things like that, that you know, because I've already changed the wiring on mine. mean, I found the NATO switch trips out at 50 odd miles an hour, it stops working. Stu: Yeah, that's right. Tom: And I was using that as a charging point for the batteries on my camper trailer. So on Stu: Mm-hmm. Tom: a long trip, as as you get about 50 miles an hour, it stops charging the battery. So I kind of hot wired that to a different switch on the overhead panel. I've got the winch on a different switch. If you're prepared to have a go, you can kind of bypass some of these issues. mean, somebody clever could probably bypass the door issue. I've got one of those little fingers that holds the start stop button down. So that's that taken care of. Stu: He Tom: But I mean, these are all mandatory things that they can't, you I'm sure that 50 mile an hour thing, you know, with the NATO socket was probably designed by a lawyer, not an engineer. There'll be some reason why they had to do that. I don't know what it is, but Why would the engineers have done that? I can't think of a sound engineering reason to do that. It must be some sort of like, what if, and we don't want to get sued type situation. Krabby: Well, that's that's why there's only one grab handle. Tom: Is that right? Krabby: yeah, we were told that it was because an unrestrained passenger, so it the driver not wearing a seatbelt would get injured if that was there. Now the fact that you're not wearing your seatbelt should prevent any further litigation or whatever you want to call it, but that's why they only come with one. And it was an I a a North American thing. But I guess they figured well make all the same. But that's what what Greg had told us shoot, three years ago now. but yeah, that's why. 'Cause of an un Stu, how did he word it? Unoccup un Stu: It's an unrestrained occupant. Krabby: Unre yeah. Yeah, that's what it was. Stu: So the driver does not wear any seatbelt if the handle was there. The modeling that they've done is that, yeah, the threshold's too bad for that. Yeah, Tom: might might bang his head on it on it on his way through the windscreen Krabby: Yes, exactly. Stu: the incredibly vertical windscreen. Krabby: Yeah. just related but but unrelated. so I don't have all of my all of my old Land Rover stuff and I'm kind of a history nerd and I have lots of of stuff. But in the the bookshelf that's in the room that I'm in right now, and I I we probably won't send video of this, but you guys can see this. This is an actual Land Rover publication. Working in the wild. So it's actually like copy written f Land Rover. Stu: Working in the wild. Land Rover's manual for Africa. Krabby: But it's like, okay, give me an example. Okay, let's see. high lift jack. Okay, now that's not an actual Land Rover part, but it tells you on section six dot eight, how to use how to use a high lift jack on a defender if you're in this situation. If you're all alone, do this. If you're with another vehicle, do that. Like that's like practical real world stuff. you know, Tom: Yeah. Krabby: daily vehicle checks. Make sure you check this, this, and this. Like, and again, this is not I don't know, I I have it, I've never used it. but that's the kind of stuff Well, Stu: Yeah, on your frequent trips to Africa and your land river. Krabby: but I'm just saying, like, okay, obviously you could cross out it doesn't Tom: You Krabby: say Africa. Well, it does at the bottom. But the top part says in the wild. So if you're off road Stu: It does. Krabby: somewhere, but look, it I mean it it it has all kinds of importance, like basic things like, okay, how do you cross a ditch? Right? One wheel at a time. Like I It's a very practical little book. Stu: You've just talked to yourself and proposed yourself for the most thankless job in the world right now. Is making one for any of us. Krabby: No, we already have someone on the forum who does this sort of stuff. No no no, but we have someone who does all that on the forum. Thanklessly and then people are jerks to him and I don't know why people are not nice. And he still does it. He is putting so much Stu: And he still does. Yeah, he does. Tom: Yeah. Krabby: time into that document. Tom: It's fantastic. Yeah, it really is. Krabby: It's it's beyond fantastic. Tom: But that little book you've got there, again, if you pitched that to INEOS and then their legal department would look at it and say, no, we couldn't possibly tell someone how to use a high lift jack. mean, high lift jacks are really dangerous. I don't like them. there's so many ways they could get sued by even suggesting that you might even think about using a high lift jack or how to cross a ditch or. all this sort of stuff that I think, yeah, I mean, it's a real shame, isn't it? It's just the world we live in now that things like that just probably can't exist. Krabby: So but yeah, like right, like if if now, would is is there a book like this for the new defender? Probably not, because that has twelve million sensors in it. but the concept of the manufacturer saying, Hey, we know you bought this vehicle to do this. Here's something that will help you do this is is kind of like a simple concept, right? Tom: Yeah, think, I mean, it's interesting. I've got a couple of forestry winches, which are big, powerful, you know, steel cable winches that go on the front or on the back of a tractor. And the instructions that come with those actually kind of tell you a lot about forestry and winching trees and do this, don't do this, don't stand here. You know, they're pretty good. They're pretty good manuals. But so I guess you can advise people in terms of like dangerous situations. I guess they would assume that you've

had some other training as well. But you don't see anything like that nowadays in terms of manufacturers. They basically feels like most car manufacturers now don't want you doing anything on your own car. You know, there was one, what was it? The Stu: 100%. Tom: Audi A2, you couldn't even open the bonnet. If you wanted to check the Stu: Yeah, that's right. Tom: oil, think there was a little Krabby: Seriously? Tom: thing. Yeah, you couldn't even open the bonnet. I think there was a little pull Stu: It's Tom: out. There was a little pull out thing to feed the screen wash, top up the screen wash Stu: Yeah. Tom: through the grill on the front. Krabby: She's the wheez. Stu: And there's something bizarre with a smart car as well. I remember that, like an oil change or something was ridiculous how you had to do it. Krabby: Yeah, this book Tom: Yeah. Krabby: is great, by the way. There's a whole little section here on your Land Rover must be equipped with the first aid kit and the fire extinguisher. The first aid kit should be matched to the first aid skills of the user. So ensure maximum expert advice and training beforehand. That's good advice. Stu: Brilliant. So I think we just thoroughly Krabby: Sorry. Stu: established that we're a couple of three grumpy old kids that want Tom: Yes. Stu: something to be a lot more simple than it is right now. Krabby: Well, yeah. Yes. and I think that's how Jim maybe felt. you know, but he's a billionaire so it's a little different for him. Tom: Yeah, yeah, I think I think the design I mean, like I said, they've kept the design as simple as they could get away with. But that's still not that simple in this day and age, you know. So I think you look at the way other cars are going, all these hybrid systems and all the rest of it. think I mean, that'll be the next thing that there'll be a I don't know, it'll be 27 or 28. But there's going to be a Grenadier hybrid, isn't it? It's going to come. Stu: all right. We do have to sort of like pull this together because believe it or not, this one's going to be so lightly edited that people are going to listen to almost every single thing. Just Tom, obviously we'd love to keep talking all night for you and all morning for me and afternoon for Krabby. But just from what you said, the sort of gist that I get is that we're going to have to pay. We don't like the fact that it costs so much, but... They've justified their side of it. More than aware that people are going to be downloading, printing, saving for later use pages on the manual. And they've also opened to the idea of maybe doing some sort of PDF version, you know, to help out owners that are that way inclined. Does that sort of sum it up or, you know, is is it Tom: Bye. Stu: something that you the conversation that you think we've sort of missed. Tom: Just trying to think. I think, yes, I think in the short term, we're stuck with what we've got now. But I think she was considering the option of giving early adopters some sort of freebie stroke discount. so that's a potential. She wasn't against the PDF idea. Her objection to that was the, who's going to make it? if they put their name on it, then what are the legal implications of that? I think if somebody came to them and said, look, just give us the raw data, we'll produce it. It's nothing to do with you. You're not legally on the hook for it. I think they'd be fine with that as well, reading between the lines. So yeah, this is, I think, like I say, this is kind of the beginning of a story rather than the end. think we just need to keep this ticking over. And I mean, maybe you could put a call out on the forum to see if there's anybody who has the skills to do something like that. If we can present them with somebody reasonably professional who we can say, yeah, look, this guy can just take what you've got there and turn it into something that we want. And you don't have to have anything to do with it. Just let us do it. I think they might go for that. But that's my that's me kind of second guessing her attitude. I don't think what they've done is out of spite, and I don't think what they've done is out of deference to the dealer network. I really don't. I think people have speculated that, I don't think that's the... From what she said to me, I don't think that's the issue. I think it's just a cost thing. Pure and simple. Stu: Yeah, that's my gut feeling as well, with regards to the pricing. Tom: Yeah, yeah. So I think I'll keep I'll wait to see what she comes back with on the suggestions that were made regarding PDFs and the early adopters getting getting access. That's obviously not going to help everybody. And yeah, we'll see. We'll see where to go with that. And in the meantime, maybe There's also the potential of communal logins. That was another thing that she didn't seem to mind the idea of. So that's another possibility. So yeah, there's some hope, but it's all in the future. And I think if we leave it up to them, it'll either never happen or it'll be another three years before it does. So if we want something better than what we have now, we're going to have to get involved and make it happen. Stu: Yeah, that's definitely the vibe that we've had is if there's any sort of immediacy, then we have to be pushing that because their immediacy is to turn the car company into a profitable business enterprise. And we're definitely on the other side of the coin of that where we want it to be as good for us as a consumer. Yeah, so for the person that sent me the snotogram on Friday that he's unsubscribed from the podcast because we haven't put one out in a year and a bit. So you are now in the bin. It's like I mentioned to him, said, hey, you know, look out this coming week because there's going to be something there about manuals. So if you're still there listening, this Tom: good. Stu: I am dedicated this episode to you. Krabby: Ha ha ha ha ha. Tom: It's hard, isn't it? know, doing the YouTube content has

been a massive slog lately. I've not released many, many videos and yeah, it's really hard to keep it up. You know, when you do it, you've got a full-time job and all the rest of it. It's quite a commitment to keep it going, you know. Stu: Yeah, as a nice to have, it is a commitment, as a nice to have. It's like, you know, and we've all got real jobs, just messing around providing the customer service experience for Krabby: Ha ha Stu: 30,000 Grenadier owners. Krabby: As we always Tom: Yeah. Krabby: say, we provide service to the people. Stu: Indeed. Tom: Yeah, well hopefully we have. I we haven't satisfied Stu: Okay, on. Tom: everybody. mean, they would have been happier if I'd turned out and said, yeah, she's changed her mind and it's all going to be free. But yeah, think there's scope for Krabby: But that would have been a very short episode. Tom: something. Yeah, there's scope for something to happen in the future. Something good. Stu: And the other thing is that they committed to putting manuals out there. They didn't ever intimate that they would be free. So they have gone through with one of the original commitments, which is like, we're going to provide the technical documentation for the vehicle. You're going to always have the people that complain because, bought a car, you should provide all of this. then you have other people that are somewhere in between. I'm just glad that they're engaging and they are taking this seriously as a real want and a need from the people that own these vehicles and take them to the places where they wanted them to be taken. Tom: Yeah, yeah. And I think they get that more than some other manufacturers do. You know, there's a lot of vehicles that I could have taken on that Morocco trip that I wouldn't have wanted to. You know what I mean? The new Defender included. So yeah, it fits Stu: Yep. Totally. Tom: its purpose. Krabby: Well, Tom, we we could not yeah, we we Stu: Okay, Kravie, anything else? Krabby: Tom, we we could not be more appreciative. for those who maybe didn't figure out, so Stu is in California, so Pacific time. I am along the eastern seaboard of America, so I'm Eastern time. So it's what? Stu at your place, it's what ten o'clock, eleven o'clock? What time is it there? Stu: Yeah, almost it's 1040 in the morning. Krabby: Yep, and here I'm at one forty in the afternoon. And Tom, I assume you're in the evening. Hopefully we didn't keep you from your supper. Tom: Yeah, it's 22.7. So we're gonna head Krabby: Well. Tom: out and get fish and chips now. That's the plan. Krabby: Ooh, you're lucky man. Go Yes. Stu: Brilliant, perfect. Tom: Yeah. Krabby: Well on that note, thank you so much for joining us today. we look forward to hearing further details as you continue to communicate with Lynn, which is just a huge service to our community, and certainly to the forum and and I greatly appreciate your time. Tom: Yeah, no, thanks for that. And thanks for having me. And I think I'll keep the pressure on. I try not to pester her. So in case she just deletes me from WhatsApp and then it's all gone. But yeah, I'll send her a message next week and just keep prodding in terms of getting answers on what we've discussed so far. And to be fair, if anybody listening has any other great ideas about how this might be progressed. then stick it up on the forum because I can always put it into an email and send it over. So, yeah. Stu: Brilliant. Alright, Tom, thank you so much for your time and don't skimp on the mushy peas, Tom: Nope, I won't. Cheers guys, catch you later. Bye. Stu: Okay, right. Thank you. Krabby: Take care.