Full Transcript for Bridging Theology and Psychology in Trauma Recovery w/ Jason Glenn

--> 00:02:46.319 You know distribution for goodness sake, exactly, exactly. 00:02:46.741 --> 00:02:50.951 Yeah, I mean, there's this whole thing about it that I had to go through an experience of. 00:02:50.951 --> 00:02:52.766 You know, why are you going into counseling? 00:02:52.766 --> 00:02:56.591 Like you know, psychology just kind of removes the responsibility from people. 00:02:56.591 --> 00:02:59.929 You know, counseling is just kind of for the weak-minded. 00:02:59.929 --> 00:03:02.627 You know Jesus is enough. 00:03:02.627 --> 00:03:05.699 Like why do people even need counseling? 00:03:05.699 --> 00:03:15.228 So that's kind of what I grew up with and I had to really wrestle with a lot of those concepts and how does the bible inform my approach to counseling? 00:03:15.228 --> 00:03:17.171 So I I nailed that down. 00:03:17.171 --> 00:03:22.355 I feel like I have a good approach and how I address things through a christian worldview, uh, christian lens. 00:03:22.355 --> 00:03:24.805 And yeah, just wanted to get your thoughts in general. 00:03:24.805 --> 00:03:38.639 What have you seen, because it's going to tie into our, our topic today of uh, yeah, what have you seen in the counseling field that you feel hesitant about or caution people about modern psychology or counseling? 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:52.230 yeah, yeah, totally, and and let me clarify again, I appreciate the work of a lot of counselors doing really positive things with the Word of God. 00:03:52.230 --> 00:04:11.747 Uh is is becoming a narrow and narrower road in many cases in terms of regulation and what you can say and can't say, um, and how you can counsel and can't counsel. 00:04:11.747 --> 00:04:26.908 So I, I I have some sympathy uh for that, because I, these are dear Christian friends who love the Lord uh deeply and feel trapped uh at times, and some have just simply left uh the vocation and gone on to. 00:04:26.908 --> 00:04:38.713 You know, some have landed in some good church counseling positions, you know, some private, newthetic sort of counseling, biblical counseling, and so I appreciate those opportunities for them. 00:04:38.713 --> 00:05:23.690 But all that to say yes, I've observed in my lifetime and of course it started well before my lifetime in the counseling field this migration to therapeutic counseling to make the person feel at peace with who they are, as long as they are not hurting someone, including themselves, and that's the goal, as long as you're at peace with yourself, not hurting yourself, not hurting anybody else, job done. 00:05:23.690 --> 00:05:37.240 And that of course, can be done with drugs or, you know, with the use, the help of drugs, or of course it can be a which sometimes is necessary. 00:05:37.240 --> 00:06:42.937 I'm not saying there are certainly some issues, biologically, physically, that certainly necessitates the use of psychiatry, but I'm just saying this is the mode, this is the modus operandi of the whole system, and if they don't need drugs, then they use concepts of freedom, concepts of self-love of freedom, concepts of self-love that oftentimes are more akin to licentiousness, are more akin to theologically speaking self-delusion, where they adopt an identity that they can affirm and they jettison any voice or any conviction or any guilt or any shame that is ulterior to the identity that they can live with in a peaceful manner. 00:06:42.937 --> 00:06:50.201 That's what I have seen in counseling for decades and that's you know. 00:06:50.201 --> 00:07:09.204 Granted, again, not every counselor and lots of Christian counselors that intertwine, even carefully, they intertwine the scripture and biblical principles into their counseling and some of them do a great job and they never run into any lawsuits or or any pushback. 00:07:09.204 --> 00:07:21.146 And it's a beautiful thing and and I'm a man, I'm thankful for it because they they're allowed the space to really help people according to what I would think the word of God would have them help people. 00:07:21.146 --> 00:07:22.831 And and again, it's not. 00:07:22.831 --> 00:07:25.567 I'm not just talking about newthetic biblical counselors only. 00:07:25.567 --> 00:07:31.541 There are certainly great concepts that we've learned from psychology and philosophy. 00:07:31.541 --> 00:07:33.747 Uh, and that's, that's a part of my. 00:07:33.987 --> 00:07:43.264 My dissertation is wrestling is wrestling with, um, primitive shame versus, uh, a mature understanding of shame? 00:07:43.264 --> 00:07:56.976 Yeah, working with holding right and attachment concepts and how that relates to shame. 00:07:56.976 --> 00:07:58.562 So that's I have to. 00:07:58.562 --> 00:08:03.848 I've got to read, you know, that stuff and try to figure out. 00:08:03.848 --> 00:08:27.173 Okay, how do we address this from a biblical, theological space that validates, you know, the presence of a type of shame where I can say it's a healthy thing, even though there is some truth to the fact that there's primitive shame. 00:08:27.173 --> 00:08:35.033 There is primitive shame that, if carried with you in a narcissistic way, is very unhealthy. 00:08:35.033 --> 00:08:37.322 So it's, yeah. 00:08:37.322 --> 00:08:38.424 So all that to say. 00:08:38.424 --> 00:08:43.073 I agree with so much, but I do disagree with a lot. 00:08:43.759 --> 00:09:09.626 Yeah, yeah, and you know, you you made the point there about the, the limitations that are being placed on, uh, counselors who are Christian or who have Christian counselor settings and so on, and I think there's been a shift in the last two to three years of people acknowledging you know, even in the secular world the importance of the way that they'll say it is, the importance of religion in a person's life. 00:09:09.626 --> 00:09:18.471 So it's called religiosity, where the practices that you do are helpful to your overall mental health, to your wellbeing. 00:09:18.471 --> 00:09:31.043 So, seeking out community,

praying, having meals together, all of these things that we do as part of the church that they're seeing, yeah, these things are helpful and it makes perfect sense when we think about how God created us. 00:09:31.043 --> 00:09:42.961 He created us for connection, for relationships, so all of those things that may have been pushed back a number of years ago, it sounds like counselors are starting to see that and saying, hey, you know what? 00:09:42.961 --> 00:09:48.791 There is something about this that contributes to a person's overall mental health. 00:09:49.371 --> 00:09:52.301 Again, for us, we see clients as a whole. 00:09:52.301 --> 00:10:02.149 Right, it's not just physical, mental and emotional, but we see the spiritual piece that people are trying to meet that need through these various ways. 00:10:02.149 --> 00:10:09.562 And a big push was, and I actually did an episode with a girl who came out of this Gosh. 00:10:09.562 --> 00:10:10.426 Why is it escaping me? 00:10:10.426 --> 00:10:13.104 Not the New Ages? 00:10:13.104 --> 00:10:14.086 What am I thinking about? 00:10:14.927 --> 00:10:15.570 The cult. 00:10:16.432 --> 00:10:17.052 Not the cult. 00:10:17.052 --> 00:10:22.958 The buffet of religions that people can turn to and pick and choose from all these different things. 00:10:22.979 --> 00:10:24.763 Oh okay, pluralism or something like that, yeah, yeah. 00:10:24.763 --> 00:10:26.889 Or something like that, yeah, yeah like new age spirituality. 00:10:26.928 --> 00:10:27.330 That's the word. 00:10:27.370 --> 00:10:27.811 Okay, yeah. 00:10:28.179 --> 00:10:43.827 So this new age spirituality where it's the way that she described it was I like this from this religion, I like this from this religion, and so on, and I found out that at the end of it it was empty, Because it was just doing certain things to try to fill this spiritual need that I had. 00:10:44.307 --> 00:10:49.597 It was just doing certain things to try to fill this spiritual need that I had until I found Jesus. 00:10:49.597 --> 00:10:50.840 Was that need met right? 00:10:50.840 --> 00:11:05.969 So where we can take this conversation, I think, is when we talk about the theological understanding're not addressing the spiritual. 00:11:05.969 --> 00:11:10.936 Then everything else is going to be off right. 00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:23.985 But in reality it seems that people can be good in their physical, mental and emotional and be very off in their spiritual being or the opposite side. 00:11:23.985 --> 00:11:25.206 They can be very good in their spiritual being or the opposite side. 00:11:25.206 --> 00:11:37.250 They can be very good on their spiritual side, and this is maybe where you can add to this part here, where they can be in right relationship with God but may also be struggling mentally, emotionally and physically Totally. 00:11:37.250 --> 00:11:41.264 Yeah, yeah, is there anything to add to? 00:11:41.284 --> 00:11:43.644 that there's so much, there's so much meat there. 00:11:43.644 --> 00:11:44.388 I mean we can. 00:11:44.388 --> 00:11:47.722 We can go in hundreds of different directions. 00:11:47.722 --> 00:11:50.971 Obviously there's a low-hanging fruit of chemical dependencies. 00:11:50.971 --> 00:12:09.496 There's a Christian that is an alcoholic, has been an alcoholic, that might need chemical or drug intervention to help them get through, to get off that addiction. 00:12:09.496 --> 00:12:26.716 There might be the Christian that struggles with schizophrenia, that struggles with obsessive compulsive disorder. 00:12:26.716 --> 00:12:34.754 Right, and yes, there are Christians out there and, man, I'm sure you've got your own feelings and convictions about this. 00:12:34.754 --> 00:12:55.950 But there are Christians out there that said, well, if they're still struggling with obsessive compulsive disorder, if they're still struggling with bipolar disorder, then they, to your point, they haven't got their spirituality right, they aren't truly a Christian. 00:12:55.950 --> 00:12:58.624 Holy Spirit really isn't abiding in them. 00:12:58.624 --> 00:13:04.894 You hear that every now and then from people and you're like I think your bodies are a bit more complex. 00:13:04.894 --> 00:13:05.495 You know it's. 00:13:05.495 --> 00:13:12.211 It's it's kind of like saying, oh did, did your, did your dad get alzheimer's man? 00:13:12.211 --> 00:13:17.109 I can't believe he lost his salvation you know, because all of a sudden it is. 00:13:17.308 --> 00:13:21.205 he doesn't know who he is and his body's not working right, his mind's not working right. 00:13:21.205 --> 00:13:24.813 Does that mean that now he's not right spiritually? 00:13:24.813 --> 00:13:26.116 Well, we would, most of us would say, well, that's nonsense, jason. 00:13:26.116 --> 00:13:27.240 But Does that mean that now he's not right spiritually? 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.100 Well, most of us would say, well, that's nonsense, jason. 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:43.186 But in many ways that's what we're talking about with some of these mental disabilities and biological disabilities that cause people to really struggle Christians, christians To really struggle with these issues. 00:13:43.186 --> 00:13:49.052 So, yeah, there's definitely a place in my book for psychiatry. 00:13:49.052 --> 00:14:02.216 Now do I think that drugs have been used in an improper way and overused and the wrong drugs used to address symptoms? 00:14:02.216 --> 00:14:08.610 And yeah, yes, yes, and that's a whole problem. 00:14:08.610 --> 00:14:26.693 But that doesn't mean that the desire to try to use this natural world to address these psychos, psychosomatic these, these, these mental and physical physiological problems, problems, is a bad thing. 00:14:26.693 --> 00:14:40.173 I mean, again, that's like saying, well, you know, they need a blood transfusion, but man, it's just, it's not right for us to actually put somebody else's blood inside that person. 00:14:40.779 --> 00:14:54.138 You know

and there are some religions that believe that, right, you know, and there are some religions that believe that, right, um, but I think your average christian would say, let's, let's give that person some blood, you know, okay, uh. 00:14:54.138 --> 00:15:04.272 So, yeah, I definitely agree, uh, that counseling can serve, does serve, um, to really come alongside of spiritual truths. 00:15:04.272 --> 00:15:06.315 I really benefited. 00:15:06.315 --> 00:15:11.971 Early on my dad got a hold of, and I don't know when he first ran into it. 00:15:11.971 --> 00:15:16.226 He ran into a guy named Neil Anderson and I don't know if you've ever heard of Neil Anderson. 00:15:16.226 --> 00:15:19.629 He was out of Talbot Seminary, yeah, that's right. 00:15:19.629 --> 00:15:31.562 But Neil definitely did address the fact that we've we've got body issues as well as mind issues as well, as you know. 00:15:31.582 --> 00:15:51.407 So, uh, and early on, my dad handed me a list of who I am in Christ that Neil Anderson made up of all the verses that said all the things about who we literally are, what God says about who we are in Christ Jesus, and that list, the list of who we are in Christ. 00:15:51.407 --> 00:15:56.561 I read through that many times in my life. 00:15:56.561 --> 00:16:05.576 But get this, this is what my father had me do when I was, uh, I'd say maybe eight to ten years old. 00:16:05.576 --> 00:16:20.303 He had me speak into a microphone this list of who I am in christ, using pure scripture, and then on a tape recorder and then listen to the tape every single night before I went to bed. 00:16:20.303 --> 00:16:26.072 Call that biofeedback right, and that's a psychological tool. 00:16:26.072 --> 00:16:28.575 Um, it's a. 00:16:28.575 --> 00:16:30.922 Sometimes it's a counseling methodology. 00:16:30.922 --> 00:16:39.743 Um, but my dad had me listen to myself staying the scriptures of who I am in christ every night. 00:16:39.743 --> 00:16:43.850 For, I mean, I did it probably for a at least six months or so. 00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:44.991 How was that for you? 00:16:53.504 --> 00:16:55.320 I've never struggled with who I am in Jesus. 00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:58.799 Have I felt shame when you were going through the stage where you were rebelling against the Lord? 00:16:58.820 --> 00:17:05.353 No, even when I was rebelling, I felt ashamed for what I was doing and felt guilty about it. 00:17:05.353 --> 00:17:10.632 But then I would confess the sin and just do it again the next day. 00:17:10.632 --> 00:17:16.932 But I never doubted my identity in Christ. 00:17:16.932 --> 00:17:23.565 Maybe I should have right, but I didn't. 00:17:23.565 --> 00:17:38.749 And so when, when I, when I really became repentant, I had all of these things happen to me, my girlfriend, who I thought I was going to marry, broke up with me. 00:17:40.261 --> 00:17:41.547 I was going in the Marine Corps. 00:17:41.547 --> 00:17:44.028 I went to officer candidate school in Quantico. 00:17:44.028

--> 00:17:46.669 I had some run-ins with the leadership there. 00:17:46.669 --> 00:17:50.386 I wrote a bad check at a bar. 00:17:50.386 --> 00:17:56.201 Before I left, my mom called me and told me that there was a warrant out for my arrest, you know. 00:17:56.221 --> 00:18:03.619 So I'm sitting in the middle of, and my father was dying of cancer at the time. 00:18:03.619 --> 00:18:07.105 And so I'm at Quantico, I'm away, I'm in a horrible environment. 00:18:07.105 --> 00:18:11.269 It's very difficult, it's very lonely, it's hard. 00:18:11.269 --> 00:18:46.534 And I had all these things going on around me and I broke down and I was alone and I read the word of God alone in the barracks for the first time in a long time, when everybody else was off in Washington DC for the weekend because they got to go and I was being disciplined for my activities and so I couldn't go and I was alone and I read the word of God and I felt convicted in that moment that I was not being who I was supposed to be. 00:18:46.534 --> 00:18:58.750 So it was kind of a first breakthrough, if you will, of shame, real shame, conviction, real conviction, real exposure. 00:19:02.082 --> 00:19:13.594 And then I went back home, I got out of there, I left the Marine home, I got out of there, I left the Marine Corps, I got out of there and I was at a men's conference the spring semester of my senior year 1998. 00:19:13.594 --> 00:19:24.507 Uh, and it was some of these guys Rick Rigsby, I don't know if you know any of these guys, some of these guys are still going, they're still speaking at Thomas road Baptist, at conferences periodically. 00:19:24.507 --> 00:19:43.373 But it was a men's conference and I sat in the stadium with all these men and these guys, one after another, were getting up that wrote books on how to be a man and repentance and sin, and I felt this enormous sting come over me. 00:19:43.373 --> 00:20:37.615 And again I had been sleeping, I'd been fornicating, I had been being a drunk, abusive, and I had already walked away from the Marine Corps and I'd already started to change my activities but I still hadn't kind of borne the weight of who I'd been being to, I think, the degree that I needed to own it and I went back to my I took, I left the conference and went back to my dorm and I got on the phone with my parents and I started bawling, weeping, and I just, I just said mom, dad, I have, I have been slandering your, our name, um, I have been dragging our name through the mud and I have been not the man I was supposed to be and the Christian. 00:20:38.342 --> 00:20:57.248 So I'm weeping uncontrollably and that was my moment of contrition and it was shame that led to that contrition I appreciate you sharing that brother yeah it sounds like, uh, your shame. 00:20:57.669 --> 00:21:00.819 I guess one part speaks to the level of interest you have in it. 00:21:00.819 --> 00:21:20.371 And then there's this real powerful part of your story that ties into that as well, totally yeah um, you know, I'm curious what you think about people who grew up christian homes as well yeah and maybe had shaming parents maybe not in the way that you described. 00:21:20.371 --> 00:21:29.388 Like you know, we talked in our first episode of how we do that with our kids at times, but the shaming maybe of that example you gave of the restaurant where you mess everything up. 00:21:29.450 --> 00:21:30.491 You're good for nothing. 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.290 You know the Lord can't love you because A, b and C, you know girl, the daughter gets pregnant at age 14, 15, and you know you're good for nothing. 00:21:39.290 --> 00:21:47.252 You're brushing and shaming things right, and that person comes into the counseling office and they have this level of shame. 00:21:47.252 --> 00:21:49.326 Their experience with shame is one of. 00:21:49.326 --> 00:22:01.686 This is who I am and the messaging is strong and this is where, from a biblical perspective, we know what the Bible teaches about that, about them being you. 00:22:01.686 --> 00:22:18.740 If they come to know the Lord, they repent, but they still have these ongoing thoughts and feelings about shame in general and feelings about shame in general, and the number one predictor or contributor to a client's growth is their experience with a counselor. 00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:31.548 One of the main reasons why I do the work that I do is that God provides these opportunities to meet people where they are and have them have a different experience, a corrective experience, than that that they have with their parents. 00:22:32.380 --> 00:22:49.801 So this aspect they come in with this level of I'm this, I'm that, and I'm not only sharing the opposite of that message, but the experience that they have with me in the session of compassion, loving graciousness, what the Lord has done in my life. 00:22:49.801 --> 00:22:58.954 Hopefully, presenting there in the session is what starts to bring about some of that shame from maybe some traumatic experience that they had growing up. 00:22:58.954 --> 00:23:05.711 Is that something that you see evidence in the scriptures? 00:23:05.711 --> 00:23:19.942 Scriptures there's so many people and obviously, reading through scriptures, there's so many people that by today's terms, and maybe even as you look and you're like wow, that was traumatic that we would say that was a traumatic instance and we don't get the story of what that process was like for them. 00:23:19.942 --> 00:23:23.669 We just know kind of what the end result was. 00:23:23.669 --> 00:23:31.372 Paul was probably someone who dealt with a lot of traumatic memories from what he did to Christians, right. 00:23:31.571 --> 00:23:34.268 Yeah, he had PTSD from everything. 00:23:34.268 --> 00:23:36.748 He had PTSD from everything. 00:23:36.748 --> 00:23:38.987 Yeah, for sure. 00:23:39.441 --> 00:23:41.848 Joseph, you know, being sold and enslaved by his brother. 00:23:41.848 --> 00:23:54.509 So all of

these examples that we see in Scripture, we don't see the process of that, and I think that's one of the things I had to wrestle with a lot is that all we see is okay, here's what they went through and then the Lord showed up in this way. 00:23:54.509 --> 00:24:09.684 But that middle ground a lot of people struggle with that because they want that result that the Lord shows up and the ups and downs to get there causes doubt and confusion for them, and that's part of me walking with them. 00:24:10.593 --> 00:24:12.305 How would you explain that process? 00:24:12.305 --> 00:24:15.099 Because that is what we see, or do you see something different? 00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:18.467 No, man, I just I'm so fortunate. 00:24:18.467 --> 00:24:28.487 I am so fortunate I had a mother that really helped me understand God's grace. 00:24:28.487 --> 00:24:39.109 My father preached God's grace and he certainly understood God's grace, but he was not a great interpersonal communicator. 00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:42.343 His father was a drunkard, his mother was abusive. 00:24:42.343 --> 00:24:44.587 He came from the wrong side of the tracks. 00:24:44.587 --> 00:24:48.342 He just had a really hard, hard upbringing. 00:24:48.342 --> 00:25:04.711 His father would go, lose the paycheck and gambling card game and my dad would have to, as a teenager, go back into the card game, win his father's paycheck back, take it back home. 00:25:04.711 --> 00:25:08.108 Just a hard, hard environment. 00:25:08.108 --> 00:25:30.328 All that to say, my father didn't necessarily have the good one-on-one help me walk through some of the interpersonal, emotional, psychological struggles as a teenager and as an adolescent that I would have liked, but my mother actually did Right. 00:25:30.328 --> 00:25:33.960 Adolescent that I would have liked, but my mother actually did Right. 00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:40.893 And so one of the wonderful things my mom did with me early on as a child when I had a heavy, I got saved. 00:25:40.932 --> 00:26:00.109 When I was five and I would say that again, a lot of my story is having a very heavy conscience from a very early age and the Holy Spirit was with me, talking to me, convicting me, and I just could not get away with anything in myself. 00:26:00.109 --> 00:26:04.632 I would go and confess, confess, confess. 00:26:04.632 --> 00:26:10.828 And there were times when I was like Mom, I'm doing this again, I'm doing this again, does God really forgive me? 00:26:10.828 --> 00:26:11.188 Does God really forgive me? 00:26:11.188 --> 00:26:11.710 And I'm like Mom, I'm doing this again, I'm doing this again. 00:26:11.710 --> 00:26:11.989 Does God really forgive me? 00:26:11.989 --> 00:26:12.167 Does God really forgive me? 00:26:12.167 --> 00:26:20.251 And I'm like, I mean, I'm like six years old, seven years old, and my mom said, jason, let's go in the kitchen, let's sit on the floor. 00:26:20.251 --> 00:26:22.522 And she said write all of your sins on a piece of paper. 00:26:22.522 --> 00:26:24.464 And so I wrote them. 00:26:24.464 --> 00:26:33.615 And then she brought out this bowl and she brought out a lighter and she just lit them to flame and burned all those pieces of paper in front of me. 00:26:37.862 --> 00:26:40.080 She says, jason, that's what these are to God, right? 00:26:40.080 --> 00:26:56.182 So I had a mother that helped me to in some ways disassociate my identity in Christ from my past sins, if that makes sense, yeah, right, yeah, so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. 00:26:56.182 --> 00:27:04.440 I was taught by my parents to not carry my, my sins, with me in my identity. 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:10.391 Now, that's not to say that they didn't say stuff like jason, there you go again. 00:27:10.391 --> 00:27:12.901 You know, or you know, you're, you're. 00:27:12.901 --> 00:27:15.405 You just can't shut your mouth, can you? 00:27:15.866 --> 00:27:44.042 you know, you know, of course I get, I've got a bit of that right, but when it came down to those really deeply, um, internal struggles, uh, on issues of sin, my, my mom, uh, my father, gave me the biblical language, taught me scripture, gave me the verses, and my mom gave me a bit of the psychology, if you will, to help me to walk. 00:27:44.042 --> 00:27:49.929 And so when I talk to individuals and counsel them, young men, I disciple a lot of young men. 00:27:49.929 --> 00:28:00.903 I am walking them through the scriptures, I'm showing them that the scriptures identify the fact that they are sinners. 00:28:00.903 --> 00:28:03.931 They're still going to sin periodically. 00:28:03.931 --> 00:28:07.103 They might even sin more, you know, a lot more than they want to. 00:28:08.306 --> 00:29:00.429 However, if their faith is in Christ and they truly have repented and believed, they have a new identity, deal with the complexity of that old sin nature and the consequences of that sin that they dip and dive back into, while they are seeking to conform more perfectly in their actions and in their patterns and behaviors to their identity that is fixed and secured in Christ Jesus. 00:29:00.429 --> 00:29:09.492 So that's a complex, you know it's clearly a complex answer because you've got multiple identities that you're dealing with. 00:29:09.492 --> 00:29:29.367 Because you've got multiple identities that you're dealing with, you've got who you are in Christ and then who you were and who you have a tendency to still be and act upon on the daily. 00:29:29.367 --> 00:29:43.654 That the Bible gives you and that a counselor can give you, that a community of accountability can give you, to try and continue to conform more perfectly to the image of Christ Jesus. 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:46.188 Yeah, absolutely, brother, absolutely. 00:29:46.188 --> 00:29:50.946 And you were 5'6 at this stage, when you're being taught these things. 00:29:50.946 --> 00:30:01.759 And I think the other important piece of this is that there are these stages of life that we go through that show us

different aspects of god's character, different experiences, right? 00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:12.343 So when you become a teenager, I remember, just to show my, my sister, I was like um, I think I was like listening to this music and it was like it would cost and all these things. 00:30:12.343 --> 00:30:15.009 And I told her you know, I recommitted my life to christ. 00:30:15.009 --> 00:30:17.067 I think I was like 12, no, I was like 15 or something. 00:30:17.067 --> 00:30:19.416 And I told her you want to see how committed I am? 00:30:19.718 --> 00:30:31.942 and I grabbed all my cds and just broke them like here's how committed I am, so trying to show all these things, because in that time I felt convicted about that and I felt like she was judging me, like you're not really a good example to me. 00:30:31.942 --> 00:30:40.647 I'm the oldest of four, so you're not really being a good example, and in my teenage mind that for me was a level of commitment. 00:30:40.647 --> 00:30:44.241 But then it felt fake because then I went right back to it. 00:30:44.241 --> 00:30:45.967 I still liked it and I felt guilty about it. 00:30:46.669 --> 00:31:06.284 So all of these things, these different stages of life that just show us different aspects of who god is and how he shows up in those moments, and our little commitment yeah, no, I, I get that with young guy, with young, young college students, guys and girls that I've, I've, I've counseled in my role as a teacher and just discipling. 00:31:06.284 --> 00:31:10.030 Um, I was saved at seven. 00:31:10.030 --> 00:31:36.155 Uh, things were good, went off, I was in high school and got it with the wrong crowd and I had sex and I started doing drugs or man, I got into pornography and, uh, man, mr gwen, I just uh, I don't, I don't think I'm saved, I don't and I'm saved and I'm like right, let's walk through this, you know, to your point. 00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:49.768 Because the mistake in my opinion and of course sometimes they're certainly, I'm sure sometimes they're not actually saved yeah, let's just get that out of the way but oftentimes they most certainly are. 00:31:49.768 --> 00:31:52.085 They most certainly are a Christian. 00:31:52.085 --> 00:31:54.271 The Spirit of God most certainly abides in them. 00:31:54.760 --> 00:32:03.194 The mistake is, I reached a different phase of life and I didn't know how to control my flesh. 00:32:03.194 --> 00:32:14.182 I didn't have the resources to address the temptation sources, to address the temptation. 00:32:14.182 --> 00:32:18.250 I wasn't mature enough, didn't have the community of support to help me to walk my faith into this new place in life. 00:32:18.250 --> 00:32:46.914 I had never experienced the power of that particular type of temptation before and I gave in, and I gave in and I gave in and now I don't think that I ever was saved, because I'm giving into this temptation that I had never experienced when I was young and when I was with Christ, when I was a Christian, when I was a good Christian and I truly believed or I truly was faithful. 00:32:46.914 --> 00:32:51.010 But this must mean maybe I'm not a Christian after all. 00:32:51.010 --> 00:33:10.234 So these stages of life are huge when it comes to emotional health, psychological health and spiritual health and how they all blend together and determine the thought life for a lot of people. 00:33:10.875 --> 00:33:11.955 Yeah, absolutely. 00:33:11.955 --> 00:33:23.192 And you know we talked about the stages of life and the part where identity really starts to get formed in the life of a person really starts in that adolescent age. 00:33:23.192 --> 00:33:30.210 You know, where we're reaching for different things to see who we identify with, who's our group, who's not. 00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:49.984 So one of the things I think that I see in practice, especially when we talk about identity, trauma, shame and all these different things, is it's during that period of adolescence where children are reaching out for different things, different groups, to find their identity, and a big part of that is the parent's role within that. 00:33:49.984 --> 00:34:00.048 And whatever is going on in that time for that child is the message that they're getting, whether it be indirectly or directly, right. 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:06.744 So, for example, the dynamic has changed a lot in our culture around the presence of parents within the home. 00:34:06.744 --> 00:34:18.074 So when both parents are working outside of the home and children get home and there's no one there, there's this belief that creeps in that I'm not really cared for. 00:34:18.074 --> 00:34:20.123 I kind of have to fend for myself. 00:34:20.123 --> 00:34:28.010 Mom and dad are doing what they're doing and that's just what they have to do, but there's this element of neglect. 00:34:28.010 --> 00:34:32.521 Right, that's how it's perceived at an experiential level for a lot of these students. 00:34:32.521 --> 00:34:38.452 So, yeah, so that's changed the conversation a lot. 00:34:38.452 --> 00:34:47.226 So one of the things that's been hard for me as a Christian counselor is how do I deal with that dynamic that they bring into, this feeling of being neglected? 00:34:47.226 --> 00:34:52.344 Even though that may not be what the parents wanted to communicate, that is what they understood from it. 00:34:52.344 --> 00:35:01.682 So it's hard because you're not denying the experience but at the same time, you're trying to help them understand, maybe, some of the realities that happen in life and it's hard. 00:35:02.463 --> 00:35:02.923 No, it is. 00:35:02.923 --> 00:35:15.806 Yeah, again, I don't need to say this in a pejorative way, but the victim mindset is huge, it's huge and it is taken over, at least. 00:35:15.806 --> 00:35:17.931 And if there's, if there's a movement away from it. 00:35:17.931 --> 00:35:21.322 You know, praise, praise, god, um, but the? 00:35:21.322 --> 00:35:31.054 But psychologists

got and counselors got so used to looking for the victim in every patient. 00:35:31.054 --> 00:35:33.016 Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. 00:35:33.016 --> 00:35:36.846 And is there, is there another side to that? 00:35:36.846 --> 00:35:46.543 Is there, is there the pastor, or the Sunday school teacher or the parent that looks for, you know, the criminal on every child? 00:35:46.543 --> 00:35:52.045 Sure, yeah, and, and this, this is where counseling comes into play. 00:35:52.045 --> 00:36:02.740 Right To work with people that have been banged up, by people that didn't articulate the gospel with compassion and balance. 00:36:04.163 --> 00:36:16.802 But, yeah, the counseling psychology industry has just been looking for and validating every ounce of the victim that they can find. 00:36:16.802 --> 00:36:21.210 And that, I think, ultimately, is probably what? 00:36:21.210 --> 00:36:23.233 Because this started decades ago. 00:36:23.233 --> 00:36:54.677 Yeah, um, that's probably what really started this whole anti-shame movement, because shame is inherently tied to victim and if you treat the victim in the wrong way or ignore the fact that they are a victim, then you are inherently shaming them and it makes the victim feel bad. 00:36:54.677 --> 00:37:40.284 It doesn't help them to come out of their hurt and their pain and into a flourishing life, and we want to create safe spaces where the victims will never be shamed, and we want to create school systems where the identity that they have chosen, where they can be at peace with themselves and not hurt anybody, is that has to be protected from any ounce of something that would make them feel ashamed, which is impossible, which, of course, is impossible, I mean one of the ways you know you mentioned. 00:37:40.304 --> 00:37:59.447 I don't know if it's moving away from the victim mindset, but there is a lot of research on the topic of resilience and that is a space where, at least for me and a number of other Christian counselors where there's this focus of okay, well, okay, you went through that, you're here today, how did you get through that? 00:37:59.447 --> 00:38:00.670 And you're here today. 00:38:00.670 --> 00:38:07.327 And that's the focus, as opposed to what maybe secular accounts may focus on is that was so horrible? 00:38:07.327 --> 00:38:09.481 And maybe they keep them in that mindset. 00:38:09.481 --> 00:38:15.248 As a matter of fact, they've even done research on what brings healing is not talking about the past. 00:38:16.336 --> 00:38:31.965 It's using that understanding to behave or to start implementing certain behaviors now to change the narrative, moving forward right yeah and you need to focus on what kept you resilient throughout that time and in faith communities, it's you know what for me it was. 00:38:31.965 --> 00:38:38.623 When this happened with my parents, the church really came and supported, uh me throughout that process. 00:38:38.623 --> 00:38:39.503 They were there for me. 00:38:39.503 --> 00:38:41.148 I got involved in awana. 00:38:41.148 --> 00:38:42.978 I had a great, you know, youth pastor. 00:38:42.978 --> 00:39:08.380 Whatever the case is, there's these aspects of how the church helps people cope with those difficulties and that becomes the focus, and this is again goes back to the idea of how does faith play a role in mental health, exactly like we're talking about it Usually, through community, the influence of a mentor, someone involved in the process that helps them through that stage of life, discipleship, right, we see that in Scripture as well. 00:39:09.061 --> 00:39:16.637 So I just love that that has become part of the conversation now, because it is something that we need to focus on. 00:39:16.637 --> 00:39:23.199 We can't focus on that victim mentality because, again, that just keeps people in that state of mind. 00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:26.326 Yeah, the end game of resiliency and I do. 00:39:26.326 --> 00:39:28.538 Yeah, I've heard of that and I've looked into it a little bit. 00:39:28.538 --> 00:39:32.887 I think so much of that is intuitive to scripture, right? 00:39:32.887 --> 00:39:35.010 Um, and? 00:39:35.010 --> 00:39:37.757 And it's that balance that I was talking about earlier. 00:39:37.757 --> 00:39:44.896 It's the balance of jason you're a sinner, you're broken and you're gonna do sinful things. 00:39:44.896 --> 00:40:01.983 However, in christ, you're a new creation and old things have passed away and all things have become new and you are given, via the Holy Spirit, the means to act upon this new person that you are. 00:40:01.983 --> 00:40:05.565 Yes, it's hard, yes, it takes time to learn. 00:40:05.969 --> 00:40:09.407 Romans 12, 1 and 2, like do not conform any longer to the pattern, pattern this world. 00:40:09.407 --> 00:40:11.920 Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. 00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:13.684 Then you'll be able to test and improve. 00:40:13.684 --> 00:40:16.860 What god's will is is good, pleasing, perfect will, right. 00:40:16.860 --> 00:40:37.240 So it's in the text where we have an old person who is bent towards sin, destruction, uh, selfishness, egotistical ambition, whatever the case, self-preservation at the expense of others. 00:40:37.240 --> 00:41:11.333 We have that person with us, but we have this as a Christian, this new creation, and we need to work on renewing our mind about how that new creation sees things, how he acts on things, how he loves things and people and how he approaches life and how he approaches pain, how he approaches offense and being insulted right. 00:41:11.856 --> 00:41:13.603 And this is where I say the end game. 00:41:14.416 --> 00:41:35.846 The end game of resiliency, in my opinion, is getting that person that has now recognized church as being a part of their coping and has recognized church as a part of their formative and has recognized church as a part of their formative safe place to grow and to be affirmed in the right things.

00:41:37.717 --> 00:42:10.309 The endgame is to get them to the point where they don't need that constant affirmation and they don't view the church for what it can give to them ideally and primarily, but they view it as the place where god has called them to serve and to minister and to be available, uh, and to and and and to be taught and to glean right. 00:42:10.309 --> 00:42:49.766 Because all too often when a victim-mindsetted person leans over and grabs the church as that safe place that just ministers to them and doesn't harm them, then they see the church that way, and when a violation comes in, as it most certainly always does, given enough time, then their association of their pain comes back to the church Right, and the church is no longer that safe place anymore, and so the end game is to help them get beyond that. 00:42:50.675 --> 00:42:58.996 Yeah, the focus that you were mentioning there seems to be on what is self-serving and not what is ultimately going to be. 00:42:58.996 --> 00:43:00.139 What can I give to others? 00:43:00.139 --> 00:43:07.300 Based off what I received from the church, because I think I encounter more, especially for those who grew up in the church. 00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:13.731 They have a good understanding of their fallen nature, their wretchedness, of their sinful acts. 00:43:13.731 --> 00:43:15.282 They have a good understanding. 00:43:15.282 --> 00:43:20.606 What they have a difficult time understanding is grace, patience and love. 00:43:20.606 --> 00:43:28.628 Like they, because they usually grow with parents who are a little bit more the harsher or more critical side. 00:43:28.628 --> 00:43:29.637 Like they get it. 00:43:29.637 --> 00:43:30.681 Like that makes sense. 00:43:30.681 --> 00:43:31.724 No, this is the Bible. 00:43:31.724 --> 00:43:33.000 The Bible teaches this and that. 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:34.244 That was me right. 00:43:34.485 --> 00:43:47.967 But having a hard time understanding what grace and patience and love is because that's seen as weak or it's seen as, oh, you're justifying someone's behavior because you're not addressing the root issue. 00:43:47.967 --> 00:43:52.237 But no, someone's behavior because you're not addressing the root issue. 00:43:52.237 --> 00:43:57.068 But no, it's this new experience with people from the church or a specific person that shows a different side of God's character. 00:43:57.068 --> 00:44:04.076 You're already very well aware of your fallenness and sometimes overemphasizing that keeps you stuck in it. 00:44:04.076 --> 00:44:12.246 So when you experience grace from someone else and patience and love now, it's like, okay, this is new for me, but I still understand my fallenness. 00:44:12.246 --> 00:44:13.077 But now I'm understanding. 00:44:13.097 --> 00:44:19.824 This new aspect of God's character is like that he still loves me, right, and that's the hard part that people have those who grew up in the church. 00:44:19.824 --> 00:44:27.822 Now, those who

did not grow up in the church they've lived their life they think you know, well, you know God's going to accept me anyways. 00:44:27.822 --> 00:44:36.617 They come to the Lord and they realize, oh no, I got to change my life around. 00:44:36.617 --> 00:44:37.599 This is not pleasing to the Lord. 00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:43.356 So for them, the hard part, for them to accept that first is all these new ways of living life, of giving of myself to other people. 00:44:43.356 --> 00:44:44.898 Well, people hurt me, why would I give to? 00:44:44.938 --> 00:44:45.099 them. 00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:47.324 Well, that's kind of part of being self-sacrificial. 00:44:47.324 --> 00:44:48.806 That's what Jesus did for us and so on. 00:44:48.806 --> 00:44:57.844 So it really comes down to at least the way that it's approached in my setting is what does the client need? 00:44:57.844 --> 00:45:27.826 And if they receive that message of always, of just being a sinful, wretched person, then what they're gonna need in the counseling session is how they experienced me as a counselor, with the grace, mercy, compassion, peace, and hopefully the goal is that they find a balance between those two, cause you usually have people on either side either all justice, all wrath, all you know, fire, brimstone and then you have over here all grace, all love, all mercy and no judgment. 00:45:27.826 --> 00:45:40.338 Right, it's trying to help either one see the other side and find a balance in that, in their yeah I just these days, sam, I just don't run into that fire and brimstone. 00:45:40.418 --> 00:45:42.121 I can't remember the last time I did. 00:45:42.121 --> 00:45:43.766 Yeah, you know, I'm sure I'm. 00:45:43.766 --> 00:45:46.518 It's probably out there in certain denominations. 00:45:46.539 --> 00:45:47.681 You see more of the other side now. 00:45:47.681 --> 00:45:54.201 Like the more grace that everything passed non-judgmental oh yeah, totally in the evangelical churches. 00:45:54.422 --> 00:45:58.923 I have not seen this highly judgmental fire and brimstone thing. 00:45:58.923 --> 00:46:02.646 I don't know for years. 00:46:03.137 --> 00:46:04.461 Yeah, why do you think that is? 00:46:04.554 --> 00:46:08.436 again because they've adopted therapeutic psychology. 00:46:08.456 --> 00:46:09.742 That's true, they have become and which drives me nuts. 00:46:09.742 --> 00:46:11.853 By the way, I hate when, from the pulpit Again, because they've adopted therapeutic psychology. 00:46:11.853 --> 00:46:13.177 That's true, they have become, which drives me nuts. 00:46:13.177 --> 00:46:17.065 By the way, I hate when, from the pulpit, pastors are trying to teach pop psychology. 00:46:17.065 --> 00:46:18.228 That's the approach. 00:46:18.228 --> 00:46:22.242 Just teach the scriptures, man, stick to your lane. 00:46:22.242 --> 00:46:24.942 But they're trying to approach all these principles. 00:46:24.942 --> 00:46:28.842 Talk in psychology, leave that separate. 00:46:29.456 --> 00:46:42.237

That's my perspective on it yeah, but, and again, you have to remember that, uh, these things have woven themselves into systematic theology and they've been done. 00:46:42.557 --> 00:46:45.081 They've done so for the past 100 years. 00:46:46.344 --> 00:47:05.998 So we're not, we're not talking about, necessarily, just about, uh, you know, winnicott holding, and, and, and we're not talking about these stages of life that appeared, um, uh, you know, in the, in in the last 50 years, although you know that's certainly a part of it. 00:47:06.418 --> 00:48:10.385 We're talking about Kierkegaard and we're talking about Hegel, and we're talking about a lot of other postmodern philosophers that have been feeding theologians, that have been teaching pastors in their seminaries for over 100 years now on these issues of identity, on these issues of how do you address sin, and the pastor and the youth minister and the biblical counselor are just as concerned about making their parishioners feel good as the counselor is, to bringing peace to them, as the counselor is, and and and, of course, yes, um, the counselor, god willing, has gone to school for it, and at least they're experts in the particular, supposed to be in that particular ideology and field. 00:48:10.385 --> 00:48:20.427 And so, yeah, the youth minister might think he understands some things, or the pastor might think he understands some things clinically that he doesn't actually understand. 00:48:20.427 --> 00:48:46.302 But there's enough integration of what we would call liberal theology that has been informed by German idealism, right that you know you're going to get these understandings of the therapeutic reality in our churches and in our small groups and in our church, our pastor's offices. 00:48:46.764 --> 00:48:52.601 Yeah, yeah, it almost seems like it's so much right Because both of them are dealing with the person. 00:48:52.601 --> 00:49:02.456 Both fields are, and one, at least from a pastor perspective, it seems it's more congregational, more community, and with a counselor it's individual. 00:49:02.456 --> 00:49:14.423 I feel like a lot of times pastors are just so overwhelmed with all the other stuff going on within the church that to really actually walk with someone through something, uh, it's, it's too much right. 00:49:14.423 --> 00:49:23.659 And that's where I advocate a lot for, you know, for those of us who are counselors in the field and have a christian worldview, that's, you know, we need to be able to be there for that. 00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:28.996 And, yeah, good resources good churches, yeah, good churches with you know. 00:49:28.996 --> 00:49:43.177 You know, for those that hold to the normal model, that are successful oftentimes, will bring on a pastoral counseling minister and have them on staff, and that's a beautiful thing. 00:49:43.177 --> 00:49:55.690 But you're right, a lot of pastors feel indebted to speak to the victimhood of all of their parishioners. 00:49:55.690 --> 00:50:12.568 Yeah, because what, sam, what the average Christian in the United States has been told for the last several decades, is, if the good news doesn't speak to your victimhood, it's not good news. 00:50:12.568 --> 00:50:45.887 And so if you're a pastor attempting to convince your congregation that you've got good news to them and that the Bible is good news, you've got to convince yourself through study and through maybe adopting some ideology and reading up some books, and you've got to convince your congregation that the gospel speaks directly to the victimhood that is being addressed constantly in our day and time. 00:50:45.887 --> 00:50:48.342 Yeah, yeah, in our day and time. 00:50:48.342 --> 00:50:57.742 Yeah, yeah, and you're right, there are tragic consequences to that that were never intended, but they are realities. 00:50:58.224 --> 00:50:58.445 Yeah. 00:50:58.646 --> 00:50:58.865 Right. 00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:02.300 That's good, Bro. 00:51:02.300 --> 00:51:03.224 We could keep on going. 00:51:04.894 --> 00:51:05.936 We could talk forever. 00:51:06.679 --> 00:51:08.382 No, I appreciate you so much, bro. 00:51:08.382 --> 00:51:10.168 This has been a great conversation. 00:51:10.168 --> 00:51:13.639 I think we've got some three solid episodes here. 00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:15.425 Obviously, there's always more that we can discuss. 00:51:15.425 --> 00:51:22.039 Hopefully in the future we can link up again and have some more conversations. 00:51:22.641 --> 00:51:23.461 You bet, but thank you for your time. 00:51:23.501 --> 00:51:24.063 Thank you, sam. 00:51:24.063 --> 00:51:30.478 I know the audience is going to really appreciate these conversations, so thank you, brother, god willing, those of you who are listening. 00:51:30.478 --> 00:51:32.757 Thanks for tuning in and I'll see you next time.