In the early 20th century, Max Weber argued that Protestantism created wealth. Finally, there are data to prove if he was right. All it took were some missionary experiments in the Philippines and a clever map-matching trick that goes back to 16th-century Germany.

United States


00:00:05Carlin is an academic economist and also I am president and founder of innovation for poverty action which is what which is a nonprofit organization which %HESITATION helps do research to figure out what works and what doesn't to fight poverty and social problems around the world Ireland is at
00:00:22northwestern was teaching at Yale back in two thousand eleven when he co authored a book called more than good intentions and one of the reasons I wrote this book was to help philanthropists make better decisions Carlin was headed to Hong Kong to give a talk about the book
00:00:37was something really great happened I got an email from a guy from a secretary to a guy who was the chief financial officer for Morgan Stanley in Asia Pacific that sounded like just the kind of philanthropist Carlin was hoping to meet he was helping is gonna get a
00:00:53big grant from Morgan Stanley and that's the guy an American name David Sutherland been working in Asia since the nineteen nineties he was in Washington before that including a stint as a tax lawyer with the treasury department so now so I got a little flyer from the foreign
00:01:10correspondents club that said this guy named dean Carlin was coming to Hong Kong so %HESITATION I said I want to meet with this guy and I was like perfect that's why I wrote the book sure happy to have breakfast so I met him for breakfast in attendance in
00:01:21the conversation he realized he was just talking to somebody you want to talk about his own charity so no Sutherland was not going to write Carlin the big check but was it possible he could offer something even more valuable then you can have these reams of folders with
00:01:36tons and tons of spreadsheets and and and and tables and he said you know basically my passion is this group called ICM in the Philippines of which I'm chairman of the board and here's all the things we're doing I CM stands for international care ministries is a Christian
00:01:51organization serving what it calls the ultra poor so the people that we work with they are living in lives in desperate poverty day %HESITATION don't have enough food to eat thirty two percent of all the mothers have had one of their own children die and eight percent of
00:02:06had more than one of their children die Sutherland and his wife have three kids of their own is family first heard about I CM back in nineteen ninety eight and it just really moved our hearts so we started investing a little bit of money and then just over
00:02:18time it grew and grew groom we got %HESITATION we got more and more involved I CM today has an annual budget of around ten million dollars and Sutherland by the way no longer works at Morgan Stanley I see them in the past decade has served roughly two hundred
00:02:34thousand Filipinos its core program is called transform its curriculum has three components health and nutrition training teaching livelihood or economic skills and religious instruction I mean my view is that it was for sure there's a lot of fantastic secular charities in this world but for me I wanted
00:02:54to be involved in something that reaches the whole person and for me that is both physical poverty in spiritual poverty ICM works with a network of some ten thousand pastors and these pastors are Protestant pastors we teach a basic evangelical message that everyone is and they need to
00:03:11put their faith in Christ and that that is the key to freedom for them the Philippines we should know is overwhelmingly Catholic only around six percent Protestant I often say that the prices are like anarchy %HESITATION date some guy wakes up in the morning and he decides he
00:03:27wants to be a pastor he just wakes up and he puts a sign in his front door it says we are now the church of Jesus Christ of heaven and earth and there is a pastor actually about a third of the pastors we work with the women their
00:03:39entire ecosystem is just a hundred families that they can see out front of their at their door so they know which has been %HESITATION cheats on his wife they know who sings good a karaoke they know which look girl broke her leg and so %HESITATION having that connectivity
00:03:55with the local people that were trying to help is a core tenant allows ICM to reach those very poor people so Sutherland had great faith in the reach of his pastor network we can find the poorest people we can reach them very very efficiently so he knew the
00:04:11ICM is good at bringing poor people into the program so the only thing that we need to know for sure is whether the program that we run is in fact effective enter dean Carlin that was exactly the kind of research he tried to do with innovations for poverty
00:04:28action and he was well acquainted with the religious based charity model roughly sixty percent of American non profits that work in international charity or religious and when I talked to some of these groups I would often hear claims made that they're not doing the preaching just because they're
00:04:45trying to spread their beliefs but they actually believe that it's changing economic outcomes so Carlin was interested in answering Sutherland's question Sutherland was having answered so we do see a lot of correlations out there people who where religion is a bigger part of their life tend to drink
00:05:05last you fewer drugs %HESITATION it live longer report higher levels of happiness do less crime things of this nature so lots of correlations correlations yes but as we've been preaching on the show for years correlation does not equal causality people like to use umbrellas when it's raining two
00:05:24umbrellas because rain science says now what about religion economics literature has long noted that religiosity often coincides with attributes like diligence thrifty this trust but again does religion because any of this and so that's the basic problem with why you can't go out into a cross section of
00:05:47the world and just compare religious people the non religious people and say well I live look at these differences religion must've cause that to happen Carlin and long dreamed of running a randomized controlled trial RCT to tease out the effect of religion itself read have a control group
00:06:03and one or more treatment groups most religious charities however we're not interested David Sutherland could understand why too many of the faith based organizations weren't willing to accept a control group because they didn't wanna you know set aside a group of people they were going to preach to
00:06:20but Sutherland himself didn't think like that if an R. C. T. showed that our current program was not effective I wanna know that as soon as possible so that we can pivot to a program that is even more effective and so it was that during that breakfast in
00:06:34Hong Kong dean Carlin realized the David Sutherland would be a willing partner in his long standing desire to measure the economic effects of religious belief I said would you ever consider removing the religion from what you're doing so that we can understand how that influences the outcomes of
00:06:50your program so we kind of take through all the boxes and in ten minutes I said yeah all those things work for us for happy to do that after a few years of fundraising and logistical planning they began running this our city in the Philippines today on Freakonomics
00:07:06radio what they learn can religion itself improved economic standing and we explore perhaps the most famous argument ever about the relationship between religion and well this was one of the most influential feces in the social sciences but also one of the most controversial that's coming up right after
00:07:26this from stature and debonair productions this is Freakonomics radio the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything here's your host Stephen Upnor dean Carlin is hardly the only American economist interested in how religion shapes our economic lives there is the association of Christian economists the Christian finance
00:08:14faculty association the Catholic research economists discussion organization credo we know that religion is one the most important powerful forces in society and so we just one know what effect does that have on all sorts of things including economic outcomes that's James Choi finance professor he works with Carlin
00:08:35on innovations for poverty action yes the problem with doing economics of religion research is the lack of convincing evidence you know I there's been a lot of suggestive evidence what you really want to do for the purpose of social science to identify the factors to randomly assigned certain
00:08:51people to be a certain religion and other people to be a different religion and just follow them forward and see how do their economic outcomes differ and that just doesn't happen in the real world surely did once tried to get at this question in a lab experiment using
00:09:05research subjects with different religious backgrounds so they came into the lab and they did a series second scrambles where they had to rearrange words in order form %HESITATION English sentences that made sense and half the subject Scott sentence had religious content in them the other half didn't and
00:09:21so the theory was that those who got the religious sentences would have the religious suddenly made more salient to them and the release of facts I would be stronger for them then Joey and his colleagues had the subjects play a game that measured how much should contribute to
00:09:37a public good so this is a problem society has to solve how do we get people to contribute to public goods public goods being things like the environment or democracy safe streets and what we did find was that when Protestants had the religious side any meat salient to
00:09:54them they contribute more to a laboratory public good was Catholics contributed lasted a lot toward the public good and expected others in the group to contribute lasted seem like they were less trusting interesting maybe but surely ethnologists the limits of this kind of research yes so laboratory tasks
00:10:13no matter how cleverly designed they are no matter how compelling the are at the end of the day that's not real life and so the ultimate test really is how do these interventions affect people's real lives outside the laboratory the fact that economics doesn't really have an answer
00:10:32about the effects of religion is pretty remarkable when you consider that roughly eight out of ten people on the planet identify themselves as religious the three largest denominations are Christianity around thirty one percent is psalm twenty three percent in Hinduism fifteen percent Christianity is most concentrated in the
00:10:51Americas Europe and sub Saharan Africa the Middle East and North Africa meanwhile a ninety three percent Muslim or the Asia Pacific region is the most variegated just seven percent Christian with twenty four percent Muslim twenty five percent Hindu twelve percent Buddhist nine percent belonging to folk religions in
00:11:10twenty one percent unaffiliated choose in case you're wondering make up point two percent of the global population and what about James Choi yes I I do consider myself religious I identifies an evangelical Protestant academia as you likely know is not exactly a hotbed of religious sentiment even so
00:11:32Choi has never been shy about his own beliefs if you think that what you believe matters for what were you going to go for the rest of eternity then you know why would you want to share that with other people on his Yale faculty website choice has a
00:11:49page that reads why I am a Christian even though I don't believe in Santa Claus the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy then actually that post is part of the reason why we ended up working together dean Carlin again key was raised Jewish now considers himself agnostic back
00:12:05when he was on the L. faculty with James Choi he'd seen that Easter bunny page and so one night at dinner I brought it up and so what we were talking about was how might we identify the effect of religion and so we started brainstorming about how to
00:12:19actually test us and we had kind this crazy idea that we would find some missionary organization that went out and evangelize to rule villages they're all isolated from each other and we would try to convince this missionary organization to randomize which villages they went to which villages they
00:12:37didn't go to answer of course this is crazy talk and so this idea went no where you went nowhere until a few years later when Carlin had that breakfast in Hong Kong with David Sutherland in nineteen excitedly our contact me said you know I found just the organization
00:12:53that can do this I. N. and this is international chemistries and they are a very data driven organization and they care about whether their programs are actually helping people and said they were willing to randomly assigned which villages end up getting different versions of the program okay here
00:13:14is how ICM's transform program typically works the participants most of them women and self identified as Catholic and all of them excruciatingly poor they meet once a week for roughly four months the meetings were usually held in a church building but again even the I. C. M. pastors
00:13:34have very little money the building might have a dirt floor a scrap proof no electricity so every meeting is ninety minutes long thirty minutes of values thirty minutes of health thirty minutes of live the envy H. L. David Sutherland again so we train the pastor to teach the
00:13:50values creek on the spiritual part of the curriculum and they get thirty minutes each week we teach them about the love of god our respect for biblical principles how %HESITATION Christ can help you to solve your day to day problems and then there are the two non religious
00:14:05components of the program health instruction we will have our own person of and I simply that we trained as a health trainer they're taught %HESITATION ideas about hygiene %HESITATION nutrition provided nutritional supplements for children and the livelihood portion and we have our own life he had person trained
00:14:23by I CM the term livelihood in this context refers to kind of economic activity we show has organic gardening which is very low cash and then a few weeks later you can have vegetables of your kids there is lessons about US small business enterprises how to get that
00:14:39started a small grants often goes with that they also from a savings group so there's a financial inclusion aspect to the program so that's the typical ninety minute weekly meeting one thirty economic livelihood one third health and nutrition one third religious instruction David Sutherland and I. C. M.
00:14:58suspected the programs helpful long term but was it helpful because of the religious values that is what dean Karlen James Choi and a third economists Gerd Brian set out to learn the first step in a randomized controlled trial is to randomize they started by recruiting a hundred sixty
00:15:19pastors affiliated with ICM and having each pastor identified to Philippine villages where they've never worked in each of those two villages we had the pastors go out and pick out what they believed to be the thirty poorest families each these communities and then we randomly assigned which community
00:15:41be pastor would be %HESITATION ministering to so they would flip a coin about which village they actually went and worked on and then we use the other one as the comparison so we had four different treatment arms to the study we had one trip an arm that received
00:15:56the full package the full package meaning the standard transform curriculum equal parts religious values healthy nutrition and economic livelihood for another quarter of the villages just the pastor what not the ICM employees so those participants got only the values or religious instruction for another quarter of the of
00:16:19the villages just the ICM employees went in the pastor never showed up and so in those villages all were receiving just a secular curcumin did not receive a Christian curriculum in these cases the program was not held in a church just make sure the religious component was totally
00:16:36removed and then a quarter of the villages there's nothing there left as as loud as the control group okay said those were the four conditions from a set of villages that have been chosen randomly with each condition including hundreds of households pretty impressive for real world R. C.
00:16:54T. six months later the economists went back to measure the results now how do you do that yes so we wanted to study to be about the effect of religiosity on economic outcomes we ended up working with six thousand households so in order to identify the fact of
00:17:12religiosity we were comparing those got values health livelihoods against those got just helping livelihoods and then we also compared those got just values against those got nothing this would allow them to isolate the economic and other effects of the religious instruction but first they need to know whether
00:17:30the religious instruction actually increased religiosity our study we can go no where if the religious curriculum didn't actually change the religiosity of the individuals attending these classes the survey people to see if the program made them more likely to read the Bible pray or attend religious services and
00:17:50we found that it did so we've found big increases in religious behavior so then we can go to the second stage which is given that the religious programs increased religiosity what does the effect downstream on other economic outcomes seem to be did everything from food security to life
00:18:12satisfaction too of course income because the whole purpose of this project the whole purpose of the ICM charity was to alleviate poverty so what was the biggest downstream affect as they call it of just the religious instruction we found was that just be exposed to the religious curriculum
00:18:34increased income by nine percent relative to the control group it's actually pretty noticeable that's food that's food on the table this is a household has children go to bed hungry so that's pretty interesting a nine percent increase in household income that seems to be caused by religiosity okay
00:18:57so that's the one but what's the what's this kind of research the what is usually for easier to answer the why but why do we think religiosity might drive income dean Carlin James Choi in David Sutherland each have their own ideas switch to my easier at least seem
00:19:18to reflect their own perspectives on religion first we'll hear from Sutherland the man behind this religious charity those people live such depressing fatalistic lives that %HESITATION that they don't take advantage of opportunities are available to them if we can inject hope into those people's lives then life can
00:19:39change and we think that that happens by this secular things that we do but we also teach them that god loves them and god cares for them and that aspect of our of re orienting your whole life around %HESITATION the love of your creator and therefore the love
00:19:55of people around you I think re orients their whole life and it changes their their approach to how they decide what they're going to do the next day and James Troy T. unabashedly religious economist I think they it really probably has to do with the fact that they're
00:20:12told that they have worked in god's eyes and they're suffering has meaning and therefore they can continue on and they can I pick themselves up after the experience set backs and that's a tremendously encouraging and it allows them to engage more productive economic behavior and finally the agnostic
00:20:31dean Carlin I am very interested in understanding more about issues on hope and aspiration and and and kind of drive and ambition and what is it that makes it so that some ultraport households later or doing better and others are not in some of that is bad luck
00:20:48but some of that is about taking opportunities and seizing them and running with them Caroline in Chile did turn up some data that addresses the why question to understand why a religiosity might lead to higher income yes I think that there were two potential channels that stood out
00:21:09one is that we see optimism increase the second is found that they're great increased it is a direct measure of kind of work ethic you always finish tasks and that's exactly what we're talking about when we talk about you know the Protestant work ethic the old Protestant work
00:21:30ethic that ideas been around for a long time what is it exactly where it come from and how strong is evidence that it's real so how can we attribute this difference of prosperity to religion rather than some other apps on measured factor coming up after the break we'll
00:21:49tell you about the ingenious research project that answers these questions about the Protestant work ethic and if you wanna hear some related episodes from our archive check out episode number one seventy six does religion make you happy and number two eighty eight are the rich really less generous
00:22:08than the poor we'll be right back in the randomized controlled trial of a missionary project in the Philippines found that very poor people earned more money as a result of receiving religious instruction why the researchers suspect there were two primary drivers optimism and grit this is exactly what
00:22:49we're talking about when we talk about the Protestant work ethic the idea goes back to the early twentieth century when the pioneering social scientist Max Veber wrote a long essay called the Protestant ethic and the spirit of capitalism and this was one of the most influential feces in
00:23:07the social sciences but also one of the most controversial ones that's George spend cook I'm an assistant professor at the Kellogg school of management at Northwestern University spend cook like vapor was born and raised in Germany I would describe myself as a can gnostic though I did crawl
00:23:26up in a Catholic household my parents go to church regularly as a grad student in the US spend cook got interested in vapors famous theory basically he argued that the Protestant doctrine of self determination would make people work harder my question was with the B. but was right
00:23:47but there is a causal effect of Protestantism to answer this question we need to go back to sixteenth century Germany a young Catholic priest named Martin Luther had grown disgusted by many church practices especially the sale of indulgences that is the forgiving of sins in exchange for large
00:24:06donations initially he wanted to reform the church from within but when he met resistance and was persecuted by a treacherous sorties he decided to to break off and at the time the printing press such as been invented so he essentially launch but we call today large scale media
00:24:24campaign Luther also launched what came to be known as the Protestant Reformation it would play out all across Europe for decades with brutal wars between reformers and church loyalists with millions of death on the religious front meanwhile his teachings became what's now the Lutheran faith two thirds teachings
00:24:48departed from Catholicism in several important ways including a new conception of work so the medieval church Catholicism said if you really want to be religious and really please god you need to go into the monastery that's Tim Keller a theologian and the founding pastor of redeemer Presbyterian church
00:25:06in New York the reformation change that completely Martin Luther comes along and says look at all the places in the Bible where it says that god feeds every living thing he says well how was god feeding every living thing is is food just appearing on their table now
00:25:22he says obviously goddess feeding every living thing through human labor so even the humblest %HESITATION farmer's daughter who is milking a cow is actually doing god's work and therefore he said all work as a calling all work is doing god's work and so it came to be that
00:25:40centuries later Max Veber would argue that Protestantism helped fuel the rise of capitalism in part by re framing secular work as a religious expression labor also argued that discipline played a strong role that Protestantism try to instill the discipline of the Catholic clergy into the Protestant lady killer
00:25:59again Catholicism basically said the religious orders that monks and the nuns they they had a live a very disciplined life but but the holy polloi the masses can kind of be out there and doing what they want to do prices came along and it put a lot of
00:26:14emphasis on all Christians have got a live virtuous discipline lives all Christians and that created a basis for thrift and self control that's the theory at least it was also the influence of the French the illusion John Calvin Calvin was another reformer I think of Calvinist Lutheran steroids
00:26:35where Calvin added his own wrinkle was the idea that your salvation is strictly by grace without any contribution on your part and so now if salvation is by grace then how do you know that you are actually saved James choice again and in that sense dead people are
00:26:54pre destined to either be saved or not Max Weber had a very particular belief about Calvinist doctrine he believed that the doctrine of predestination meant that are all cavernous were radically in secure and that they desperately wanted to prove to themselves that they were say but they didn't
00:27:15have any way of proving that so how can I be sure and predestined and he said the anxiety of that lack of assurance was channeled into hard work Max neighbors thesis especially the in secure Calvinist angle was not universally accepted George spend cook again they're all kinds of
00:27:34people saying this is B. S. it wasn't just limited to Catholics and Keller here I am a Calvinist I'm a Presbyterian and all of us of every I mean every cavernous I know has always laughed at that what about the broader thesis that Protestantism encourage a work ethic
00:27:52that drove capitalism and leads to better economic outcome some scholars have tacked papers thesis on empirical grounds for instance the very Catholic in northern Italy saw the inklings of capitalist enterprise well before the Protestant Reformation and while it's true that even today Protestant countries tend to be more
00:28:12prosperous than Catholic ones there is the old correlation does not mean causality problem yes benevolence and Great Britain or more Protestant than say Spain or Italy but they also speak different languages they have different cultures apart from religion and the many other things that varies so how can
00:28:31we attribute this difference in prosperity to religion rather than some other apps on measured factor that was exactly the question that George spend cook wanted to answer there is a causal effect of Protestantism but if you think about how hard it was for dean Carlin and James choice
00:28:50to learn whether religious instruction helps Filipino villagers earn more money how was spend cook supposed to learn whether a five hundred year old religious transformation had an economic impact that could still be felt today well it started with a simple idea remember the Protestant Reformation triggered wars throughout
00:29:10Europe Germany at the time was made up of more than a thousand independent territories each ruled by its own Larter prints and what settled these wars the piece of Oxburgh in fifteen fifty five and that peace treaty gave local rulers and you know lords the right to determine
00:29:29the religion of their territory and therefore it the religion of all people who lived on the territory and you have to realize that these are times of indentured servitude so if my lord converted to Protestantism that meant I also converted to Protestantism and if your lord St Catholic
00:29:49so did you but if a Catholic family lived in the territory with a local prince chose Protestantism they could freely migrate to a Catholic area and vice versa this created throughout Germany checkerboard Protestant and Catholic micro populations and George spend cook noticed something what I noticed was that
00:30:12if you overlay a map from fifteen fifty five with a map from modern day Germany compared to the geographic distribution of Protestants and Catholics the almost match exactly meaning that whichever way friends decided in the aftermath of the piece has a huge impact on how many Protestants live
00:30:35in the same area today spin cook realized he could exploit this demographic accident of history so I use that to determine the effect of Protestantism on modern day coming out comes modern Germany is about one third Protestant one third Catholic and one third non religious the Protestant and
00:30:56Catholic populations beyond religion itself quite similar and Germany being Germany there was a lot of data available for spend cook to drill down further so we can do better than just looking at our Protestants richer than Catholics we can ask are they more educated than Catholics or do
00:31:17they work longer hours than Catholics to the one to work longer hours than Catholics at cetera with these data in hand spend cook could now control for any differences beyond religious affiliation which let him compare apples to apples or really to compare observationally equivalent modern German Protestants and
00:31:37German Catholics to see who earns more money and perhaps why so what do you find I find three six one yes Protestantism increases labor income in modern day Germany to Protestants work longer hours than Catholics and three they don't earn higher wages meetings like yes Protestants are a
00:32:03little bit more prosperous but because they work more in other words the Protestant work ethic does seem to be real so again that's the what as for the why so this is where the where the data gets very fan so what I do find in the data that
00:32:21when you ask people how many hours a week which you want to work conditional on your income adjusting accordingly Protestants would want to work longer hours but what drives these differences sort of Richard Dicker layer deeper I don't know some have argued that institutional differences between Protestantism and
00:32:46Catholicism may trickle down to the individual level the Catholic Church is very very hierarchical top down the feel %HESITATION gin Tim Keller again prices and very entre early start your own domination you get things started horizontally organized religions like Protestantism are argued to be kind of more %HESITATION
00:33:08friendly towards the the building social capital the economist James Troy the what you do find a look across countries and even within our readings is that Protestants are more trusting that Catholics are another idea comes from the fact that Protestantism has historically encouraged its adherents to regularly read
00:33:27scripture there's an interesting theory that it was the literacy those promoted by Protestantism that really led to the second I'm success indeed one study the controlled for the literacy rate in Catholic and Protestant countries found no difference in their economic success in any case George spend cooks evidence
00:33:48for the Protestant work ethic at least in the context of modern Germany is pretty persuasive we should say this is not necessarily an economic argument for conversion revving Keller again the person's Catholic living in America today and becomes a Protestant it's I mean that person's gonna make more
00:34:05money work harder I doubt it and several downsides of Protestantism have been measured one recent study found that Protestants in nineteenth century Germany were substantially more likely than Catholics to die by suicide George spend cook recently published a paper about another troubling association with Protestantism in Germany ten
00:34:26second summer is that religion is the single most important determinant of **** vouchers at the end of the Weimar Republic Protestants at the time we're two to four times a slightly S. equivalent Catholics to vote for the **** party why was that the paper we argue that that's
00:34:44due to the Catholic church's influence over parishioners noting that would spin cook observed about incomes in Germany being driven by working more hours does not seem to account for the income gains the dean Carlin and James Choi observed in the Philippines we don't see an increase in the
00:35:12number of hours that people work but we do see it important changes and what they're doing they seem to shift away from agricultural work towards other kinds of work which may be a more high paying into that may be kind of just the accounting %HESITATION channel through which
00:35:28their income is increasing there are of course a lot of differences between the Germans that span cook studied and the Filipinos that Choi and Carlin studied especially the fact that the Filipinos were punishing the poor and perhaps had quicker gains to make by trying a different kind of
00:35:44work than what they've been doing it's also possible they were already working about as many hours as humanly possible David Sutherland the X. Morgan Stanley CFO who runs the Philippines charity thinks the religious instruction works for a very basic reason I think re orients their whole life and
00:36:04it changes their their approach to how they decide what they're going to do the next day is the vow as Sutherland is personally he's not sure the Protestant work ethic is really the key Hey I'm a true believer right sell for sure I would like to say that
00:36:20the the price and %HESITATION relationship with god is that is unique differentiator now could someone with a Buddhist background or a Hindu background Muslim background that engaged with god the way they understood it and if that really injected hope in the life that clearly would have a important
00:36:38%HESITATION change for them but whether it's the same as the Protestant it's really hard for me to say I I don't know I think that additional study would be needed to to know whether that's true this is something that everyone we spoke with today has in common may
00:36:52be useful to have learned a few things about the relationship between religion and income there is much much more isn't yet now then the day you know we have not answered the question what is the impact of religion that's that no one studies ever going to do that
00:37:07we don't have the data to answer that definitively in so %HESITATION basically were left to speculate I wish I knew the answer so for the many of you listening today who are entering the season of a religious holiday and for those who aren't ears to questions asked questions
00:37:28answered in even those that remain unanswered it's nice to live in a world that still got a little mystery thank you thank coming up next time it's Freakonomics radio live out unpredictable fact finding mission where we invite anyone and everyone to tell us something we don't know so
00:37:51in choreography we have different tools of analysis so %HESITATION what does a Helland and an iPod have in common Darwin kept pigeons for twelve years or more and he he was fascinated by them because you could breed them %HESITATION co host is Angela Duckworth and psychology professor and
00:38:11author writ so why is this amazing facts so unknown what like what what is the pick finches are just to you know like they're sexier than pigeons that's coming up next time in big news we've just scheduled some more tapings of Freakonomics radio live including our first ever
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00:38:50eighteenth in Los Angeles will also be back in New York for two shows in March at city winery dates are March eighth and ninth for tickets go to Freakonomics dot com slash live I do think they would make a swell holiday gift speaking of which we just put
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00:40:01Twitter Facebook and linked in or via email at radio at Freakonomics dot com Freakonomics radio also plays a most of your better NPR stations check your local station for details as always thanks for listening stitcher Hey all this is Caroline urban increasing hunger where the hosts of unladylike
00:40:37they show that finds out what happens when women break the rules and we just wrapped up a full season full of exciting episodes covering everything from women getting gas with at the doctor's office and she kind of looked at me with the space that to me said like
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