Full Transcript for Inside the Clase-Ortiz rigging trial w/Sam Blum + Derrick Goold on Pujols, Molina & the new GM in STL

eventually got to, everything's been denied on that front. So they basically had no, I mean, you know, in theory, they had a choice. They could have still argued that defense, I think. But you know, because they're all basically trying the same, you know, they're the defense for better or worse. And there's a third defendant, you know, who nobody here has probably ever heard of. And, you know, it's a little bit complicated to get into every element of it. But yeah, so they basically all have to be in lockstep. And I think that is, you know, when the government comes out and says the star witness is not testifying, I think it allows them to you know, latch onto that as a defense, essentially that like, this was the guy, there's a reason why this guy isn't testifying. And I think we'll find that out more. And my, my assumption is, is because, you know, what we've heard so far is that he might not, he might have some credibility issues and, um, you know, we'll see. Uh, but I think that's, that is kind of the reason why he's not set to testify. And, and it is why we're now seeing more of a lockstep defense from class a and Ortiz. And as I said at the start, I mean, you know, the conduct is the, the charges are the same, but the conduct maybe is not exactly the same because Class A's got years of these allegedly rigged pitches. The initially, the government initially said it was 194 rigged pitches, I believe, or 192. And then they, you know, decided to only try to prosecute 18 of them. But Ortiz, it's two pitches. I mean, it's, you know, one pitch to Randy Rosarena, one pitch to Pedro Pajes. And, you know, their defense, I think, is interesting because both those pitches were outside sliders. And outside sliders, if you've watched specifically Randy Rosarena, I mean, that's his weakness. So. 00:06:48 Speaker 2: You know, that's the defense. I mean, he'll swing and miss the pitches out of the zone. So, you know, it's interesting. It's really, I mean, it's a good mixture of like, of like just inside baseball knowledge and like, you know, real legal theory. And I, you know, for me, it's, I find it, I find it really fascinating. And it's quite interesting that the judge in this case, you know, by all intents and purposes, very strong judge, well-respected, has been federal judge for quite a long time, but she has absolutely no idea about any baseball. I mean, she's been asking questions about what an inning is, outing is. She asked the other day, are Detroit and the White Sox the same thing? And has been interjecting a lot to ask questions about very minute baseball things that has actually led to Emmanuel Classé' s lawyer bringing up, can you please stop asking questions, essentially. 00:07:38 Speaker 4: That's not a direct quote, but that's the gist of it. 00:07:40 Speaker 2: And And I think that they view these questions as helping the prosecution build their case and maybe actively hurting the defense's ability to cross-examine fluidly. 00:07:52 Speaker 6: AJ, do you like to do your holiday shopping early? 00:07:56 Speaker 1: I'm a last-minute guy, Scott, but you know what? I always want to make people happy. And Mint Mobile, you can buy your $ 15 a month plan in November, and it'll make people happy in November through December through the rest of the year, the next year, 2027. Get your Mint Mobile plan now on limited access for only $ 15 a month. That sounds good any time of the year. 00:08:17 Speaker 3: That's right. 00:08:18 Speaker 6: All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text. So what are you waiting for? To get your new wireless plan for $ 15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash territory. That's mintmobile.com slash territory to cut your wireless bill to $ 15 a month at mintmobile.com slash territory. Upfront payment of $ 45 for three months, $ 90 for six months, or $ 180 for 12-month plan required, $ 15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. Cmentmobile.com. 00:08:51 Speaker 1: All right, Sam. So you just mentioned it. I've seen the two pitches that everyone, the two famous pitches, right, from And listen, I was a free swinger. I swung at the rosin bag. You threw the rosin bag, I'd swing it. I wouldn't even have swung at these pitchers. I mean, that's the thing to me that when I watch, and again, I believe in everyone's innocent until proven guilty. But when you watch the two main pitches, right, they are pitch outs in the dirt five feet outside that nobody could have swung at at all. And then both of them kind of go back to the mound like they slipped or whatever it is, right? So with saying that, if you're a casual person, you just see those two pitches, you're like, oh, well, these guys did that. What's the evidence against that? them saying what's their biggest argument saying hey you know what no that and I remember I think what Bo Naylor said was oh yeah those are typical pitches in an outing well listen I caught for almost 20 years in the big leagues very rarely did a guy come in and throw a ball that bounced four feet outside and four feet in front of the plate it was like oops I didn't mean to do that so what's the defense's main argument that hey this isn't true. 00:09:51 Speaker 2: Well I mean and when you're talking about those two pitches it sounds like you're talking about the Luis Ortiz pitches based on like, you know, those being the two pitches that I've mentioned with respect. 00:10:03 Speaker 1: You see those most of the time, right? Whenever you Google or whenever you search this case and even when it happens. If you remember, they would show, or they even showed there was a Class A one. I forget who it was, but it was like always the first pitch of an inning or it was the first pitch of an at-bat. And it was always just, I mean, we always call them non-competitive pitches, but that would

be an understatement of how uncompetitive these pitches were. 00:10:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that I think, I mean, there are 20 pitches in total that are kind of at issue here, two of them for RTs and 18 for Class A. And I think there's a variety of competitiveness to the pitches. 00:10:36 Speaker 1: Now, I think. 00:10:37 Speaker 2: To some extent, for Klasse, the main argument that they're making is Klasse generates more swing and miss generally than pretty much any pitcher, so he doesn't need to throw strikes. I think part of their defense is that he never throws the ball 95 miles an hour. His cutter and his slider are two very disparate speeds, and so you know it'll either be very low 90s or close to 100. So it makes gambling on him more prevalent, I think, and maybe more predictable at times. And so I think that's most of the defense, essentially, right? That this is, you know, that there's reason why you might be seeing some of this. But I think the main thing is that Class A can throw balls and generate swings and misses and doesn't need to throw the ball in the zone in order to be, you know, competitive as in at-bats. And you see it even in a lot of the pitches that were non-competitive still result in outs at some point later in the at-bat, and they don't actually impact the flow of the game. 00:11:33 Speaker 4: That's the defense. 00:11:34 Speaker 2: Now, I agree with you that I think some of those pitches that when you look at them, you're like, Manuel Clase is pretty good at locating generally. And it's surprising to see some of these pitches be like, you know, 20 feet in front of the plate and, you know, completely non-competitive and be at, like you said, at the time when you're then looking at some of these text messages. 00:11:55 Speaker 4: There's, you know, there's plenty of conversation. 00:11:58 Speaker 2: I don't think there's anybody's nobody's doubting that there is irregular betting happening here. that people thought they had inside information. The real question in this case ultimately is, did Class A communicate this inside information or was somebody else purported to basically telling people that they had inside information that they didn't have? I mean, that's really the question here. So, you know, I don't know the answer to it. I want to see more of the evidence. I think at this point, you're right that some of these pitches are very non-competitive. But at the same time, I also understand the argument that Manuel Clase can throw balls effectively and get outs as a result of it and, you know, maybe throwing the ball in the zone at times, especially on like a first pitch slider. You know, getting a swing and a miss when they're expecting a cutter or something like that can be an effective strategy. You know, and it's the same for Luis Ortiz and those two pitches. I mean, Bo Naylor was testifying specifically about those pitches and those pitches being within the scope of the scouting report for that game against Randy Rosarino and Pedro Pajes. So these are two very different situations, I think, with Class A and Ortiz, but they're part of the same defense. And it's just going to be interesting to see how, you know, the various lawyers try to make different cases for their clients here. 00:13:08 Speaker 5: How many witnesses have testified on the stand so far? 00:13:13 Speaker 3: Do you know? 00:13:13 Speaker 4: I think six, five or six. 00:13:15 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:13:16 Speaker 5: When Bo Naylor got up there, this is the part where an ex-player being a teammate, a How different was the, I guess it wasn't cross-examination because the defense called the witness. So how different was the questioning? Because he's just answering the questions based on the fact that these are one of my pitchers or this is two of my pitchers that I have done scat reports with and I know what we're supposed to throw in these situations. How different was the questioning and even like just the mood of the courtroom during that time? 00:13:53 Speaker 2: You know, one of the questions I almost was curious if they would ask is like, you know, the defense, because like Ortiz's defense lawyers did not ask us, but I was curious if it would come up was like, do you think he would do something like this? Or like, you know, when you see these pitches, but like, you know, one of the things Naylor said is he was not like, he's not like close friends or even really friends at all with either of these players. And so it's interesting that he was a defense witness. I will be curious to see these other, there are other guardians people on this witness list, right? Like Mike Zanino, Austin Hedges, Mike Chernoff. uh, Augustine Rivera, who is a, um, an interpreter. Uh, I think Matt Foreman, if I'm not mistaken, uh, assistant GM, uh, Carl Willis pitching coach. 00:14:31 Speaker 4: So there's a lot of guardians people on here. 00:14:32 Speaker 2: I do not know at this point, if those people are all going to be defense witnesses, if they're going to be prosecution witnesses, um, you know, but the questioning, it, it wasn't much like, like Paul Mifsud is a, uh, uh, major league baseball executive basically was asked a lot of the same questions by Luis Ortiz's attorney as, um, as Bo Naylor was, which was basically looking at the scouting report, looking at the baseball savant page of where, you know, look, Ortiz's strengths and these batters' weaknesses, and basically just trying to establish that this pitch was completely within the scope of what you would expect him to throw. Now, I think we'll see more evidence about some of the betting activity that was happening with Ortiz. That really hasn't come out yet, so I'll be curious to see that. 00:15:16 Speaker 4: But, yeah, it's interesting. 00:15:16 Speaker 2: I mean, like, you know, it didn't really, you know— I guess to answer your question, it didn't feel like this was a friendly interaction between that Bo Naylor was going up there to

advocate for his ex-teammate. I feel like he was just going up there to provide his perspective on what he thought those pitches were. 00:15:33 Speaker 4: You never really know. 00:15:36 Speaker 2: The basis for someone's testimony. They could have been subpoenaed and required to testify. They could be coming there voluntarily. It's not always clear. Certainly not to me. I asked Major League Baseball, are you Are you testifying here voluntarily? Are you testifying here under subpoena? And they said they're just not going to comment on that. So I think some of these things, we don't know everyone's motivation and the dynamic between the attorneys and the witnesses. But in terms of what the actual testimony was, I think that Bo Naylor's testimony was more favorable as a defense witness for Luis Ortiz. And he was called by Luis Ortiz's attorney, not Class A's. 00:16:13 Speaker 1: It's amazing, though, by the way. Talk about an awkward situation for Bo Naylor. 00:16:17 Speaker 3: I mean, wow. 00:16:18 Speaker 1: And some of these other guys coming in to have to answer these questions about– I mean, can we bring Kratz on, too, for this? Because I want his reaction on this question. How many times did you say, all right, I mean, I faced some dudes that swung at some wild pitches, but never did I tell my pitcher, throw a slider four feet in front of the plate and four feet outside because we might get a swing out of it. Am I wrong? 00:16:39 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:16:40 Speaker 1: Like, I mean, you'd say, all right, treat them like 0-2, and they'd throw a slider that was just a ball. But, I mean, Sam, I'm sorry. That's what I'm saying. 00:16:48 Speaker 4: I'm not disputing what you're saying. 00:16:50 Speaker 1: No, no, no. It's just wild that Bo Naylor had to get up there and say, well, in the scope of the scouting report, Randy Rosarano swings at a lot of sliders in the dirt, and then they show the pitch, and it's like, okay, it almost hit the on-deck batter. 00:17:04 Speaker 3: Right? 00:17:05 Speaker 2: I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure that that was Ortiz's pit. 00:17:08 Speaker 4: You might, I don't know. 00:17:09 Speaker 1: I have, I, yeah. Anyway, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. 00:17:13 Speaker 2: And I think Bo Naley, he also did say that he, cause he caught one of them and I think one of them was caught by hedges. Um, but the one that he caught, he said he called it right. And, and he, they showed video of him like pressing the buttons on the pitch calm. Um, and then, you know, Ortiz nodding and throwing the pitch. So it's interesting to me, like, you know, the, Does that, was that, would it, would it, if he had called a different pitch, is Ortiz going to shake it off until he gets to slider? I don't, that's a great question that we don't know the answer to, but he did say he called that pitch or at least that according to the video, it appeared that he called that pitch. 00:17:43 Speaker 5: Can one be found not guilty, even though they're

being put on trial together, they're being, can Ortiz be found not guilty and class a guilty or vice versa? 00:17:54 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. 00:17:55 Speaker 2: I mean, and I, I, And I think that is really why Ortiz wanted a separate trial here. I think he senses that the conduct, alleged conduct, is different and, you know, is concerned of being kind of lumped in with Classe, who is, you know, at the end of the day, innocent right now. But there's more, you know, there's more alleged there with him, I think, in terms of like there's more evidence maybe in terms of like the text messages and the pitches and just, you know, all of that. 00:18:21 Speaker 4: And so I think that was the concern for Ortiz. 00:18:24 Speaker 2: But, you know, there could be a benefit to him in just the way it's being compared and the way that the government maybe is, you know, locking in on, you know, proving their case against Class A because in order to prove anything and think against Ortiz, you got to first kind of establish everything that happened with Class A dating back to 2023. And so it's just, it's really interesting. And I think, and like I said at the start, you know, this case is a lot about these, it's obviously about these two pitchers, but you know, we're entering into, I think, a larger world and a larger concern about, you know, just sports betting in general, like how it could impact games, right? 00:18:59 Speaker 4: I mean, it's everywhere, right? And I think for. 00:19:03 Speaker 2: This trial, I mean, you know, to me, the most important thing when I'm watching a game is that it feels like that these players are doing everything they can. I mean, that's the one thing that matters most. Everybody's doing everything they can to win on every pitch. And even if it's a micro bet and you can still get the guy out, like if you're throwing a pitch that is meant to win a bet as opposed to get a guy out that's bad and that that does deserve punishment and i'll be curious to see how the jury feels about it i'll be curious to see all the evidence but it's and that's really what's at the question here and so you know the verdict will be really important i think for the future of kind of how some of the stuff is looked at and um you know it's it's about one one case here but it is about something bigger uh too yeah like. 00:19:42 Speaker 5: If owners would say every pitch matters and we should put the best team on the field too so you want competitive owners too? I know it's a completely different. 00:19:53 Speaker 1: Argument. 00:19:54 Speaker 4: Well, it was interesting. 00:19:56 Speaker 2: I think Class A's lawyer was happy to have somebody up on the stand who can ask this because Paul Mifsud is a very high-level executive with Major League Baseball and asked him, so if there's no agreement between the MLBPA and the league, there's no baseball next year. And Mifsud goes, well, not necessarily. And then he kept asking questions and they objected to, you know, for relevance purposes and it was sustained. But I did think that was an interesting quote because I don't know why Paul would have said that that's not necessarily the case. If there's no agreement, I don't see how Major League Baseball is playing next year. 00:20:26 Speaker 1: Replacement players. Replacement players, Sam. We know about them. 00:20:30 Speaker 2: There's a few of them. I did ask him for a comment, didn't get one. Didn't even get a response on it. 00:20:36 Speaker 3: So, you know, it's what it is. 00:20:38 Speaker 1: All right, well, Sam, thank you. And by the way, this is why Pete Rose shouldn't be allowed in the Hall of Fame. Sorry, my opinion only. I got into an argument because the integrity of the game is the most important thing that we have. You have to want every player, every pitch, every at-bat to try to win the game for their team. So, Sam, thank you. I'm sure we'll be talking to you in the next month or so about this. I'm intrigued by this. I want to see how it goes. 00:20:58 Speaker 3: Sam, thanks. 00:20:58 Speaker 1: The Athletic, thanks you. And us on Foul Territory, thanks for your time, Sam. And we'll be right back. On the record with Derek Gould from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch with the hyphen in the middle. That's a big hyphen, by the way. Make sure, by the way, if you ever do a chat, if you ever do a chat, kids, Derek, if you ever write an article with chat, they put these weird little hyphens in it. So you got to go back and you got to take those weird little hyphens out so that people can't tell that you use chat to write your article. So Derek, next time you send your article in, make sure you change the little hyphens. I'm just telling you. I'm just telling you. I know this from first hand experience, Derek. So next time you write an article. 00:21:36 Speaker 3: I had no idea, which tells you everything about how often I use that. 00:21:43 Speaker 1: You're not plagiarizing your chat? I don't know. He wrote some articles about me that I wish he would have plagiarized. 00:21:52 Speaker 3: No, I'll own them. I'll own up to them. The typos, the misspelling of Brzezinski, all mine. All mine. You can't get a bot to do that. That's fair. That's fair. 00:22:03 Speaker 1: Are you in Las Vegas? 00:22:04 Speaker 3: I am. Yeah, doesn't it look like it? 00:22:07 Speaker 1: It looks like you're in a tent somewhere, so I can't really tell if that's a hotel room or what. Before we get into the Cardinals, are you a go-outer? Are you a show guy? Are you a gambler guy? Are you a go-out-at-the-clubs-all-night guy? Or are you just a go-to-dinner-and-come-home? 00:22:25 Speaker 3: I'm not a go-play-the-games guy. I am an experienced guy. I don't like to be around the hotel. If that's Going to a show, then so be it. If that's walking the strippings, just watching other people, that's it. If it's finding a pub and finding a great conversation, that's probably more my speed. That's what I tend to do. I'll either go find a

place with a great conversation, some good baseball stories, or a corner that has a good pint and I'll write letters and postcards and read a book. But I don't like to be around the hotel much. I like to get out, get to museums, get to shows, get to get to experience cities. 00:23:08 Speaker 1: I like it. 00:23:08 Speaker 3: I like it. 00:23:09 Speaker 1: Go out just, I mean, in Vegas, you can just go out of your hotel and sit on the strip, read a book and drink a coffee and just watch the people walk by. And you will see things that you never thought were humanly possible, Derek. And then you can write, you can have chat, write an article for you about just take out the hyphens. 00:23:23 Speaker 3: Okay, buddy. Oh yeah, I will. I will. No. 00:23:25 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:23:25 Speaker 3: We'll see how gonzo chat GPT can get right. Like, you know, fear and loathing with an AI. 00:23:32 Speaker 1: Perfect. 00:23:33 Speaker 3: Perfect. All right. 00:23:33 Speaker 1: Let's dig into the Cardinals here. New GM, Rob Serfolio as their GM, right, last week. What's his first thing he needs to do with these GM meetings? What's the first thing on his to-do list? 00:23:44 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I mean, the front office is still going to be led by Haim Bloom, but I think, you know, one of the things that we'll see Serf do is, well, gosh, first thing, it's probably multi-pronged, right? They're going to have to discuss what to do with the front office structure. They do have two, if they stick with the same structure that they had this past year, they have two assistant general manager positions open. Randy Flores is the new GM of the Houston Astros. Rob Sifolio obviously promoted to GM of the Cardinals. So that leaves two rather significant openings in the front office leadership structure. Now there are internal ways that they could do that, but Haim Bloom had such made such an emphasis a year ago at this time of wanting to expand just the number of people in the front office. He, He added to Randy Flores' purview, added directors at both the amateur and pro acquisition level, wanted to increase the scouting staff. So as far as front of business kind of work, that will be part of Serfolio. How do they fill out that staff? How do they look at that structure? What does it look like for the assistant general managers that now he's the liaison between and Bloom? They still are going to operate with a lot of input from all of their leadership structure. This is sort of a continuation of things, but they do have some responsibilities that will need to be filled, whether that's internally or externally. And portfolio will be a big part of that. I think you're also going to see them kind of fan out and try to look at what moves they could rush to make for free agency, for some of the needs, some of the short-term needs that they have. explore some of the interest that teams have via trade in areas where the Cardinals have depth. They are still in this rebuild, which means they are still in the talent acquisition business and not necessarily the contract commitment business. So that will govern a lot of what they look for in this coming few weeks. 00:25:44 Speaker 5: Serfolio was hired on by Heim as the player development, sports performance enhancement, all that's Long, long name to say he was in charge of putting a new system in for the player development. Is it too soon in Haim Bloom's reign as Pobo that we can look at something that Serfolio is able to help him that he doesn't do well at? Or is it more of just, we're bumping you up, like something that Haim is missing in his first I get it, it's only a year, but basically his first two years of tenure here, even though Mo. 00:26:27 Speaker 1: Was still around. 00:26:28 Speaker 5: Is there something that he can fill in that you're like, Haim's not great at this, that he's now in this new role able to fill in for Haim to help improve the Cardinals? 00:26:39 Speaker 3: That's a really interesting question. You said it well because this has been two years of this group, right? I mean, when you talk about player development, Bloom has been over that for two years. He's been president of baseball operations for only the one. But that one year that he spent sort of building into was spent building out and improving and expanding and innovating and modernizing the farm system that he would then inherit. And in other words, the Cardinals gave him a chance to say, look, we need a better foundation within our player development and farm system. You have a year to build that, and then that's what you get to build upon as the president of baseball operations. And Serfolio is one of his, Serfolio who goes by Serf, just like Moselak goes by Mos, and Flores goes by Flo. It must be a cardinal thing. The, you know, Serf was really instrumental in that. One of the first hires, they did really kind of invent that position for him instead of like the classic farm director role. Serfolio was player development. And as you mentioned, player performance. But beneath the title, there was really substance to the change because he was a lot around the major league team. So instead of like this player development being the farm director, which the Cardinals hired in addition, Larry Day is running that. But they had a guy who was the AGM level, who was this connective tissue between player development, which they wanted to have ongoing. at the major league level, and at the lower level. And Serfolio was key to that. I mean, a quick example would be a pitcher's demoted, right? He is met with a conversation with Serfolio and Matt Pierpont, who then give that pitcher really insight and clear goals to have when he's back at the minor league level to get back to the majors. And Serfolio was in place to then connect with major league coaches and also the coaches in the minor league level to put that plan together. All of that is to say that I think the answer to your question is not

something that changes with the title. It's more of the title now fitting so many of the things that Serfolio was doing, where Heimblum could be working at the larger level, the more umbrella, the bigger picture. You had Serfolio already connecting the player development on all these levels, and that will continue. That's really been a strength of his career. You look at what the Cardinals have done really well, and it is just flat out an accumulation of pitching talent. They have got high volume and in a lot of cases, high ceiling. And Serfolio has been part of that and will continue to be. This probably puts him more into the realm of acquisition than his previous title had. And that'll be really interesting for just how those relationships grow with agents and with other teams. And he pieces together more of an acquisition edge to his role now. 00:29:46 Speaker 1: Derek, did you ever watch Beavis and Butthead a while ago? 00:29:48 Speaker 3: Oh, sure. 00:29:49 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:29:50 Speaker 1: Remember when you used to go, I am Cornholio? Every time you say Sirfolio, I'm like, I am Sirfolio. I need players for my baseball team. Yeah. 00:29:56 Speaker 3: Every time you say Sirfolio. 00:29:59 Speaker 1: I am Sir Folio. I need baseball players. So anyways, every time you say it, so it's surf. 00:30:07 Speaker 3: I think you just gave somebody on the Cardinals coaching staff, a Halloween costume for next year. I think, I think you just did that, AJ. I think that's perfect. 00:30:15 Speaker 1: John Jay would look great dressed up as, as, as Cornholio. I think I'm calling it now. John Jay. 00:30:20 Speaker 3: Perfect. 00:30:21 Speaker 1: Uh, Will they fill this role with someone else? Will the Cardinals, now that Cerf has moved up to GM, will they go outside the organization or internally and refill this role? Because you just talked about how vitally important it was to the organization. So now will Hein Blum say, all right, well, we moved him up. We lost Randy Flores. So basically now they have to fill two spots in. 00:30:40 Speaker 3: Their front row. Yeah, I think that's a big part of this. I mean, I think that's a big question is how much will they mirror the structure of the path? Blum has said that that's important, and the expectation is that they will go out and fill these roles, whether they'll do it at the AGM level, I think is a fair question, but they don't want to have spent so much time increasing the workforce in the front office to then now peel back and go, well, we're going to go with two less, especially two less influential roles like that. So, you know, the Cardinals have some internal candidates. They have two directors in place, you know, Joe Douglas and Zach Mortimer, who have overseen pro acquisitions and amateur acquisitions, respectively. They're highly respected. Zach really played a huge role in this most recent draft when the Cardinals had more picks on day one than any other team. He and Flores worked really closely together, and there was a real sense of Zach's influence growing when it comes to the draft. And so you can see how they have internal guys ready to move on and sort of amplify their responsibilities they already have. But, you know, the one thing that Bloom has said repeatedly, even when he was auditing the Cardinals before he, you know, a year before he ever took over as president of baseball operations, was the Cardinals needed to have just a larger staffing overall. And to go down by two and not look to at least replace one would be unexpected. 00:32:11 Speaker 1: Derek, I just looked it up just now. Twenty five years you've been writing in St. 00:32:15 Speaker 3: Louis, correct? Yeah, 25 years at the post-dispatch, 23 or so with the Cardinals. 00:32:23 Speaker 1: Okay, congratulations. 25 years is an awesome milestone. 00:32:26 Speaker 5: How different is this tiny two-year window regime that was built? How different? Can you see the differences? I'm not talking about on the field. I'm talking about everything that we've been talking about so far than the 22, 23 prior seasons. 00:32:46 Speaker 3: I mean, pretty significant. I mean, it's radically different in a lot of ways. I mean, first and foremost, just because this is the vantage point I have is the covering of the team is different over this past year, especially. I mean, you know, I spent a good two decades with the entire vantage point of going into a day covering the Cardinals with how does this get them closer together? to the National League pennant this year how does this make them a winner this year how does today make them better how does this acquisition this trade this decision make them better for October and you know this this past year has been more about like how does this make them better for the future so it's been a shift of the lens there you know the Cardinals have long really taken continuity and growth within as a certain strength, as a real strong part of their identity. And in the last few years, they've benefited from bringing in outside voices and being willing to look and say, no, we're not leading. We're not on the cutting edge anymore. We can't just rely on internal voices being the way we go. So they've been open to adding from the outside. We've seen Changes in leadership, obviously, very prominently with Haim Bloom coming in as the POBO, but also on the ownership side, you know, you have Bill DeWitt III is now CEO. This transition took place over this past summer. So you're seeing the next generation of the DeWitt family also having a larger voice and be more prominent publicly with the team. So there's been a lot of changes, not the least of which has been challenges both, and you mentioned not on the field, but on the field as part of it, is how they just kind of chased what they were for several years. And they spent money, they went out and got them, but they just kind of got static. They got stale at times. And they weren't getting the return

on the spending that they wanted and that they needed. And what happened was you didn't have the same robust crowds that are kind of the signature of the Cardinals. And all that happened at a time when we all know about the RSN situation and everything. And so revenues were challenged. And so you have a radically different franchise over the past two years and probably going in for another year here than the one that I covered for 20 previous years. It just has different goals. It has different pressures. It has different voices and different aims. 00:35:23 Speaker 1: So the Cardinal way has changed. They need to, they need to update their little notebook. They hand all the Cardinals players. Then there's no longer. 00:35:29 Speaker 3: They have. They have. 00:35:31 Speaker 2: Okay. 00:35:31 Speaker 3: That's good. Yeah. 00:35:33 Speaker 1: That's good. So now that Randy Flores. Go ahead. 00:35:36 Speaker 3: Sorry. Oh, no, I think it's more than the, I mean, I get what you're saying. I think they've just kind of had to ask fans to accept the different brand. Right? Like this, the Cardinals brand for a long time, AJ, you played here was the pressure to win. That was the reputation. And that there was a, It was a destination ballpark. There were player after player after player that said they wanted to play for the Cardinals because of the vaulted expectations, the history here, the annual contention, all that stuff. This past few years has been different, particularly this last year. And so they're selling a new brand. And as with any launch of a new brand, whether it be new Coke or new Cardinal, it can be tricky and you have to have buy-in from the fans. 00:36:21 Speaker 1: That's fair. 00:36:21 Speaker 3: That's fair. 00:36:22 Speaker 1: So, so now that one of their guys has gone, Randy Flores, he went to Houston. Will we see a Yachty Molina? Will we see an Albert Pujols? Will we see someone, a John Jay, a Daniel Descalso get an opportunity to go to Houston and lead a major league baseball team is how much is Randy Flores going to take the Cardinal way and poach it and try to make it the Astro way. 00:36:40 Speaker 3: Yeah. It's 2011 all over again, right? Jeff, you know, even for the Cardinals, um, Yeah, the Astros have asked, I don't know specific names, but the Astros have asked to talk with some members of the Cardinals for promotions, for roles with the Houston new franchise there with Randy Forrest leading it. Obviously, Albert Pujols, we all know, interviewed for the job. He has put in a lot of preparation to be ready and has told us and told me, told I'm sure you guys and others, over the past few years that if the time is right and there's the right fit, he would very much like to be a manager in the major leagues. Yadier Molina is with the Cardinals and they are, they remain interested in kind of expanding his role. He had a much larger presence this past year that included time in uniform with the major league staff and also work at the minor league level. And he is both interested in growing in that role. And so are the Cardinals and having him grow in that role. Daniel Descalso is on deck as a managerial candidate. John Jay, you definitely could see him move maybe with Daniel Descalso. I'm not sure that the Astros are the ones that they're going to move to here, but we'll see how that develops. I expect Descalso to get a lot of attention at some point as a manager candidate just because of his reputation and because of what he's done here and also his experience there when he was with Arizona's front office for a while. Uh, so he's got kind of a resume of it and is building towards that. I think it'd be really interesting. Um, you know, as far as a good fit, um, Albert with a former teammate who they have a lot of mutual respect for and an owner in Jim crane, who has gone to St. Louis several times to find a leader. Um, and he's got St. Louis roots obviously from St. Louis and has often looked to the Cardinals, um, and their past for guidance or for what they want to be. I think that would be a really fascinating group to lead an organization. And, you know, I'm eager to see what Albert does as a manager just because I've talked to him over the last four or five years here. And I know the effort that he puts into being good at whatever he's trying to do, whether it's broadcaster or hitter. We all know what he did as a hitter. But he's been putting in the same thought and the same effort into improving and being ready to manage. And gosh, it would be such a fascinating thing for him you know just one of the all-time greats to then be willing to go and see what he does as a manager which you guys know the criticism the managers face he won't always be able to hold up the 703 home runs as a reason for his pitching changes he's going to face new questions and I'm really eager just what he brings to that role I think he could be exceptional at. 00:39:27 Speaker 5: It how many people have actually done that how many of the all-time greats have been good managers would be. 00:39:33 Speaker 3: My question frank robinson right. 00:39:38 Speaker 1: Did he win that's uh yes winning is important winning is important I know Frank Robinson once locked the bathroom when we were in the Fall League and wouldn't let us use the bathroom. But that's a whole different story. 00:39:52 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:39:53 Speaker 1: And Don Mattingly. 00:39:54 Speaker 3: Don Mattingly's great. 00:39:56 Speaker 1: But he hasn't won. He hasn't won, though. Eric, you got to win. You play to win the game. We say this all the time on the show. 00:40:02 Speaker 3: You do. Yeah, you do. 00:40:03 Speaker 5: All right, Derek. 00:40:04 Speaker 1: Last one for me. 00:40:05 Speaker 5: You kind of insinuated that maybe there's still talent acquisition. Maybe 27 isn't their year. But you wrote an article about five potential free agents that they could, that they could. 00:40:18 Speaker 1: Possibly look to acquire.

00:40:22 Speaker 5: Is this team going to look to acquire people to fill out the roster or people to acquire and free agency to improve the roster and get this team where they thought they were for about two thirds of the season? 00:40:37 Speaker 3: That's a great way to position it. 00:40:39 Speaker 2: Um, Yeah. 00:40:40 Speaker 3: And in doing this story for the St. Louis post dispatch, um, with the hyphen, as AJ pointed out, um, I, uh, I wanted to kind of put on my rebuild glasses and look through what the Cardinals might do, you know, and don't, don't look at the headliners and say, you know, they're, they're going to do this when this is not the fit. Um, you know, I think they have to, they have to make some additions to their roster to both improve and also just honestly stabilize the roster. Um, The direction they go is going to be the answer to your question, Eric. I think that when you look at could they improve the roster based upon what they had last year, their view right now is that a lot of that is going to come internally with the growth of Leo Bernal at catcher, with Joshua Baez playing every day there in left field, with Jordan Walker building upon what he did this past year, with some improvement that they need to see in center field. with J.J. Weatherholt in his sophomore season being even more productive. But, you know, they do have an opening to explore a third base. They have some internal candidates. They might just do a casting call there. Or they could see, well, you know, if there's an option there, maybe that's the role that they go for that does improve the roster. I'm really interested to see what they do. There's a handful of things, and I discuss this in the article, You know, a year ago, it just seemed so obviously they were going to make a play for Dustin May. They had a good presentation to him. They had a good pitch for him. And they also had a mutually kind of understanding that it would be beneficial for him to come to a place where he knew he was going to start, where they had had success with starters like him and keeping starters healthy. And then the understanding that they could trade him at the deadline to really maximize their return and where they are in the competitive cycle to bring in prospects. This winter is a little different. There's not like that. I mean, there is Dustin May, obviously, but there's not that Dustin May like player, right? Who like, okay, what guy would you know you could do that with and flip? There are a few pitchers coming back from injury. There are a few pitchers who have recently been relievers who, you know, because of health or because of the team they were on, you know, Chris Buick, I mentioned, you know, he, you know, if he wants a chance to start or some of these other guys, who would just like to go to a place that can guarantee a start. The Cardinals can offer that, but they're in a spot where, and this gets to the crux of your question, where they can look at a guy

that maybe, all right, give him a chance to perform here. And if he does, and he's a fit, then maybe he's a part of when they contend, not he's the guy they flip automatically at the deadline to get somebody who might be part of when they contend three, four years from now. And they just dial, they just spin the wheel a few more years in the future. I think that's an interesting element to, you know, and they only have a few weeks here to figure this out, I guess, if they're going to do it before December 1st. But I do think that that's an interesting element of this is you could acquire a guy who, if he performs well, maybe that's the guy you go, Oh, we perform as well. Let's hold on. You don't need to flip him at the deadline. 00:43:58 Speaker 1: That's fair. That's fair. 00:43:59 Speaker 3: It's time. 00:43:59 Speaker 1: It's time, right? The, The thing about the Cardinals for me, and we talked about this, and Kratz and I talked about this before we let you go, Derek, is they have this window of Jordan Walker and Mason Wynn and some of these, you know, but it's already starting to close because those guys are already into their third, fourth, fifth year, and you're like, oh, man, now we're going to have to start talking arbitration. Now we're talking about having to trade them. So at some point you have to kind of almost speed up this process, and you say they have pitching depth. That'll help, but they also have to have some position players, so. We'll see, Derek. 00:44:30 Speaker 3: I don't know. 00:44:30 Speaker 1: It'll be interesting. I love Haim. I don't know Sir Folio. I don't know him at all. 00:44:36 Speaker 3: I'm sure you will. 00:44:37 Speaker 1: I do know Haim Bloom, and I like Haim Bloom a lot, so I hope they succeed, and you know how much I love my time in St. Louis. We used to kick the bird's ass, so that. 00:44:45 Speaker 3: Was always fun. Especially the coverage you got there from the B-riders. 00:44:49 Speaker 5: I know. 00:44:50 Speaker 1: The best questions you ever faced. The cat was the best question to ask her of all time. Ouch. 00:44:56 Speaker 3: I'm sitting right here. 00:44:59 Speaker 1: He thought you were off already, Derek. Sorry, I know we already went to commercial. I apologize, Derek. 00:45:04 Speaker 3: Hey, you bring up a great point about the timing, just real quick. I mean, like, look, you can see in their actions where they feel Alec Burleson is that guy, right? If you want the guy to watch, right, an extension would make him part of the core. If they don't have an extension in place with him, then... is the reality that he might just be on the Brendan Donovan-Lars-Newpar timetable and not part of the next score. That's the tipping point. You know, Jordan's got a few more years here, but I think it's really interesting what they do with Alec Burleson in regards to when they expect to win. 00:45:37 Speaker 1: That's fair. 00:45:38 Speaker 3: That's fair. 00:45:38 Speaker 1: All right, Derek, make sure you get me on the red jacket ballot for next year so I can get that red jacket and I can drive around in one of the cars. 00:45:45 Speaker 3: I will. 00:45:45 Speaker 2: I will. 00:45:46 Speaker 3: All right. All right. Thanks, Derek. 00:45:48 Speaker 1: Derek Gould, thank you very much. Read him in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. All the time, one of the great guys in baseball.