This week, we learn what the elements that give beer flavour, just in time to cheers to the end of another season.
Matt Park is the Operations manager at Toronto's Burdock Brewery and he loves yeast. We learn how yeast impacts the taste of beer and how to maintain flavour when brewing low alcohol beers. Yum!
United States


00:00:06today on foodstuffs what is it when you're young you hate the taste of alcohol but love to getting drunk and then when you're older you love the taste of alcohol but hate getting drunk we had to the brewery to learn how to craft a brewing for flavor well I'm still keeping the percentage lope right and he's bigger Pierce is cut this lots of places hide behind do you know a huge body or a huge bitterness or a huge Aroma of something to lower alcohol beers here at your flaws really really shine because I'm in the spotlight I'm at Park one of the owners at Burdock as well as the brewery director and you're listening to food stops
00:00:54welcome to foodstuffs broadcast about food and culture and their intersections on Jessica Walker and I'm Brian Goldman
00:01:04happy 40th episode happy for you and happy birthday to you to look at that we got a beautiful day out here to celebrate to sit down to Center I can't borrow from your Toronto Wednesday May 17th it's 30 today from what I understand same on the East Coast so blessings all around yes lots of reasons to celebrate today I think Wednesday so Anthony but the ideal beverage of choice for an occasion like this what could possibly be tastier than a delicious crushable beer that won't like knock your socks off and peel the paint off the walls to write I'm so
00:01:59let's get into it it's been just over 2 years now that a brewery and then you opened up on Bloor Street West here in Toronto it goes by the name of Burdock Brewery Toronto at that point already had some very well-established go to craft breweries but bear. Came out early championing some beers at work kind of newer on the craft beer scene at that moment in time then glass ipas and salads and more kind of low alcohol classic styles of different origins in your chat right kind of Burdock has in their arsenal when you opt to brew for later Styles so we will talk and mention some of the cells that they tend to favor but really we're getting into kind of the nuts and bolts of how you do something like that okay cool so let's take a listen this is part owner of Burdock Brewery and the brewery operations director Matt Park speaking with Jessica
00:02:58open the get-go we wanted to brew things that were approachable and things that were things are really things that are balanced and approachable can be like a derogatory term my brother always see no like if you see if he's like pretending to be pompous drinking wine hope you like this one is really approachable just to put you down as a reference to me anything such as like a generally derogatory things to say about a beverage a little snide or something yeah but you know you want to drink from you know when your glass is full too when your glass is empty and come back to and drink again you know there there there there is like a bit of a stereotype of crap you're being undrinkable or like OneNote flavors that are over the top and and there is some of that out there but there's a lot of really amazing craft beer that's that's really drinkable
00:03:58tasty and you want to drink many of and that's kind of what we want to be doing something crash of all the special ability to getting medicine operandi so is there certain styles that you favor would you say we generally Focus kind of broadly and likes for free as categories of a lot of pale ales an American Style Pale ales make a lot of says Oz like Belgian inspired beers and also now more recently doing quite a bit of lower ABD sours it's been attributed to your Prairie that you guys have a bit of a I love affair with least I think it's true a lot of burgers especially like the Contemporary like modern modern craft Brewers are very east east Centric and the best breweries in my
00:04:58in the world are very very Centric we we ourselves are very eccentric spend a lot of time thinking about yeast where all are Homebrew team has biology background has come experience working in biology we little laboratory that we test and propagate yeast in but yeah used his is an amazing unicellular organism and its responsible for you know 70% I'd say upwards of 70 to a hundred percent of the flavor and most beers if a beer tastes good it's generally because these tests done something right are the uses been treated while or or the right used as been used for the right job how many different jobs can just have so many jobs the different kinds of yeast of domesticated brewer's yeast and then there's is all these while you sit people are getting their hands on now seeing this problem be genetically modified
00:05:58Brewing but right now it's all kind of disease domesticated strains that can produce flavors you know from from clove to Banana to bubblegum two-horse to Pineapple to guava to you know spearmint I don't know about that last time I made that up yeah I'm at Verizon so with regard to you talk about it being 70-plus percent I have flavor in beer comes from the East itself so how does the Sten cuz I have a question around the flavor as related to the alcohol
00:06:41in craft beer I think a lot of people associate ipas and like it yourself over the head crazy high percentage alcohol ipas with the craft brewing movement and that has probably tell note in the last few years particularly in Toronto I think it's probably beyond that now and things are moving pretty quickly but is there a direct correlation to flavor and therefore alcohol in the mix like or are those two things mutually exclusive exclusive by how much grain you use and how much water you use so you use you when you make a recipe you kind of eat usually you have an idea of what kind of alcohol percentage you want to make in your beer you want to make up 4% beer or 10% beer you then add more or less grain to your recipe given your volume of beer you're making which is acting as sugar
00:07:41yeah it's acting as you're sure that's where you get the sugar which is Dan ferment into alcohol so that's kind of the limiting reagent of alcohol production is also other kinds of alcohols in beer other than just acting all which is you know what what we usually wouldn't give me like an alcohol by volume reading on a beer but there's also the other alcohols that are that are for more flavor flavor compounds that are big part of brahma's add flavor to beer but yeah used used flavors are more strain dependent and and how what kind of environment you give them will they'll produce different different kinds of flavors depending on how hot you ferment the beer or how much how much cheese do you put in or how much do you get at certain nutrients or if you you know Co format different strains of used together or you can create all sorts of different kinds of flavors
00:08:38just like how you raise your baby exactly yet it's very much like like rearing rearing little unicellular children so you can tell that I am excited by the prospect of lower alcohol beers and I felt like I was yelling in to avoid for a long time no one was really on my side because I don't know I'm learning a lot right now in this conversation with you about how the processing works and so I think that people who really favorite craft beer and you know there's the local element of there's the cash a of it there's all these pieces that make it an attractive thing for young person to prefer to drink over some of my Budweiser Bud Light or whatever but yeah Mike is there still a huge rainbow of Labor opportunities that you know are available in coming like I saw something like a flower that you know
00:09:36wouldn't be available in like those crazy ipas or something like that yeah I know I don't think I'm trying to create those flavors on the on the low octane scale making really flavorful things in low-alcohol environment is actually quite challenging because alcohol itself is it dissolves flavors it's it's it's like you know when you want to make a tincture of something you dissolve it and alcohol and so alcohol is a really good Agent to flavor so we don't have a lot of it you got to go to a creative and lower alcohol beer is generally also have it's hard to kind of yet
00:10:25to get enough body to balance out a lot of flavor if you're going to have it in there was any bigger beers is cuz there's lots of places to hide behind you know a huge body or huge bitterness or heat Aroma of something it's a little rock over here it's here at your flaws really really Shine the kind of in the spotlight so to make a really good low-alcohol beers quite difficult. So I am like drinking the champagne of beers is what you're telling totally yeah you know I think there still are some flavors that you know you probably would never achieve it in a 2% table beer cuz you wouldn't you like to know 10%. Little Kanye says but for me I mean I just have to keep drinking those in smaller amounts breaking new ground in making really balance lower alcohol beers like the weather girls are really inspired me early on was that Stay classy beer from Bellwood so just like an amazing exam
00:11:25Bratayley all that sex you're 2.9% and drinks like a 6% pale ale it's so happy so citrusy so aromatic got such an amazing beer and I think as the what's the word like not the user Shipra like the following your craft beer is more people cannot enter into the into the crap you're a sphere you kind of get a broader spectrum of tastes that people want and I think a lot of people out there want to drink lower alcohol beers that are really tasty we just made a really nice American sectional that's like three point something percent I think it's the best one we've made yet so far as he should try it. Sounds amazing and I think it's just yeah it's just the way the market is develop his did Disney's bit there's been these these big
00:12:22bigger craft breweries could have grown throughout the US that made these there their name by making his pretty crazy beers like Dogfish Head and and Let It Go Russian River now brewdog coming from overseas are like known for making these really over-the-top super flavorful beers and I think those of carbon in the spotlight and taking the Limelight even breweries coming in that are that are just doing different things that are inspired by different things that have different backgrounds that are interested in different flavors and it's kind of an amazing time to be a beverage maker
00:13:14yeah for us you know where were were were were we get most of our inspiration from other fields of a beverage make white wine and sake and coffee and and Mead and cider and industries wine is definitely the most strongest connection to buy probably drink more wine and I do beer I just think there's something in wine that is is almost out of Hannibal and beer this is like this complexity this you know what is a bigger beverage it's 13% but you can have 13% wines that are very Crusher Thursday this Thursday is like a mineral component that is really hard to achieve with barley and that's something we we are basically trying to make wine with barley
00:14:14wake up it's really hard for our biggest relationship in Niagara who make really fantastic wines and they kind of
00:14:29introduced us into the world of wine and what's possible and we've learned a lot about beer making through just kind of talking about wine and how it's made in the parallels the differences and happy noticed how we both talked about fermentation in yeast so different and it just kind of really makes it really made me just kind of like stop and be like wow okay wait a second like he's got a talking about this like this and I've been thinking about like this for so long you know what else am I not thinking about and who else can I talk to you and have my butt yeast World flipped upside down my next question after that was going to be what are you excited about but that sounds like a part of it yeah I'm really excited about that yeah we're just kind of continuing to look at how we can you know cross collaborate with different different beverage makers in different fields in cider and Mead
00:15:29particularly in wine continuing to work with Pro Morissette I've got a bunch of projects on the go with them and yeah I just I just can't wait to drink them the ones that we've gotten in the works now or all tasting so well and he know I really like when when you got something it's in the process of being made is tasting really good it's hard to think about anything else hard to want to drink anything else other than that one thing and so yeah I think that World of Beer wine hybrids is it's kind of like a niche Newfield that were were really go swimming in right now and we're finding some of our biggest success in and yeah we're just kind of continuing to pursue that
00:16:18full steam ahead and try to do more of it and doing lots of Trials and experiments and try to learn as much through the process of making these beers as we can and so we make a beer like blue which is this is blend of barrel-aged beer and wine that we made we make you know 40 small trials as well and do things differently you know we'll make the big batch and do we choose one way to do it will also do like 40 different experiments and see and I'll just try different things trying to bring you strains try conditioning it differently just so we can get as much as we can cuz it's a new area of scientific scientific as much as we can because I really you know work weren't we're not we don't identify it's like Master Brewer so you know we're just we're we're more scientists just trying to get data trying to learn
00:17:18uncover new things whatever we can points in the process totally yeah we're just curious about the power of you Easton and and what can be done with it and what it can do and what we can learn from it well for someone that is hasn't found craft beer that they care about yet what would you encourage like how do you how do you get excited about it I would just say to Google Google search the closest Craft brewery to you and just go and check out The Tap Room talk to somebody there but yeah I think you know in 5 to 10 years they'll be a Craft brewery in every if there isn't one already will be a Craft brewery in your neighborhood and the Pitcher deck the trajectory that the industry is on right now is incredible the other so many breweries opening in Toronto and there's so many good breweries opening in Ontario all the time
00:18:18and yeah it's just I think the Brewing industry in Ontario is is young but it's it's it's it's kind of improving and getting to a really high caliber level very quickly and I don't think it's it's fully recognized with in Ontario how good a lot of the beers that are coming other problems are right now and I think a lot of people look to the u.s. is that is the Mecca Ave of crap year and that's where you know if it's not from the US it's not you know not notable or not worth getting excited about but there's so much so much good beer coming out of Ontario that we really have a lot to get excited about a lot to be proud of and and I hope that people you know really can just like get behind Ontario craft breweries because it in there are so many good ones awesome
00:19:15it's it's nice to be able to to enjoy beers with an S saying session like crushable because I think enable people to enjoy their lives more more thoroughly and fruit for a longer. Of each day and everyone was drinking LOL all the time I just imagine the world including children I don't condone drinking I'm on spiner's butt everyone up with a slight Buzz all the time totally it's okay that was just speaking with Matt Park the part owner and Brewery operations director at Burdock Brewery by Mike microbrews in craft beer is like this is another sort of segments of food that's really eat a like nerding out you know similar to be talked like coffee
00:20:15sake and a lot of things that there's a lot of places you can go and it you know comes in place of just loving it but there's a lot of scientists so much so much to this really actually yeah it was so funny for me to have him bring up like all the different influences that he has coming from the world of socket coming from the world of wine coming from the world of coffee all these beverages Mead Etc because I would have I think that's where my mind was already going and so he like beat me to the punch by bringing it up himself but yeah it's like this moment in history we have come to appreciate there's clearly a long tradition of these things at this moment in time and so now we're at the point with technology and maybe labor there's more of an opportunity for specialization
00:21:05in the labor market at this moment in time that we can kind of spend her efforts putting money into the science behind in this case what different yeasts and Brewing process is due to the beverage at the end of it by didn't coffee it would be the roasting process yeah there's so much to learn and we still have to do a good juicy wine chat which you know I'll get to it if you let me guess what can I say so that's all the obvious like parallels that we can be making right now but then I have in the last 2 weeks there was an article that came out in the National Post and I feel like it could have easily been mess if you weren't attuned to the World of Beer but a Woman by the name of Claudia McNeilly Road apiece kind of championing the right for the masses
00:22:05that the masses would be interested in drinking Budweiser and embarrassed like that
00:22:14in all honesty I've felt like she wrote that on a quick deadline and didn't have too many strong feelings about it but that she might be like kind of tongue-in-cheek a little bit about it because it does this is an industry that has taken itself so seriously for so long and so I didn't think much of the article itself but the reason that I came back to it was because there was actually someone posting about a blog post that was a response to her in my God I think that this so bear with me here I know that seems like I'm off track but the thing that was Sicilian kiss for me was that I have for a long time really valued delicate lighter crushable beers because I find them in the most refreshing and there's been people who have some sort of fought me on it at various points where they're just like this isn't an objectively good beer and I'm not asking for it to be objectively good I'm saying do I like
00:23:14good or do I not like it because this is the point that ties into the Claudia McNeil EP switch was just saying that someone who wants to drink a light beer and not be smashed so quickly is not not getting the point of craft beer they just have their own reasons for wanting to drink and so for you to tell me what I taste and what I don't taste and what I like and what I don't like is not the point the point is there's room for all of these different styles and there's a customer for all of these different styles so the smaller craft breweries are going to benefit from the exponential growth of a Matt was saying that if it's not already happened in your neighborhood neighborhood across the country soon enough are all going to have their own microbreweries so as these things keep growing and the value and the knowledge cuz so much of it is knowledge right and knowing what you like and
00:24:14I want to ask for as a cell grows then there's going to be a place for the 15 and a half percent Russian imperial stout that I saw him and you last week and I'm exhausted going to be a room for someone like me who is in the mood for a 4% 5% pure all this to say her article just made me feel like there is a bit of a gendered thing only in that there was a blog post response that kind of like really took took her to task but the tone of that response was the most patronizing thing I have ever read and I brought back the idea of this keeping kind of mentality which I think is counterproductive to an industry that again could really use eyes on it curiosity about it that move and seem to go immediately to Ward's the higher percent alcohol now we know there is a bit of a reason for it because that's easier to get that that flavor out of there right
00:25:15and I think perhaps to an extent there's probably some marketability two words that were it so it's something you like hey there's a really strong beer like that's a way to start a market it is as something different not just like it's a it's a local beer but it's another thing where this is another way we're different but yeah I mean to each their own beer right and you know it it's also even a I think heavily a an occasion Thing by depending on the occasion there are times when I like a lot of interesting complex flavors in a beer in there sometimes we're yeah you do want something very light I mean the perfect example I play an adult Hockey League I played with I'll talk to you again. Hockey and Canada if you're not aware it's known as beer league because usually shut somebody shows up with beer or everybody puts a couple
00:26:14hands in their their bag and you have a beer in the dressing room where the parking lot after and that's just part of it in a huge it's funny because over the years used to always be that you would only see Coors Light or Bud Light or something like that because you want to light beer and I can't like you say those marketing budgets of these big big companies have it so that that's going to be on the top of your mind always in uck Madrid roster of hockey game I have a butt or I have a Coors Light and it fits the occasion because you don't want a lot of complex flavor after you just come off be nice basically right but it's funny cuz then the last couple years I've noticed that you see more guy showing up with light tasting micro brewed beers in their bags right so that's been sort of an interesting development where they've gone to beer store or the LCBO and they picked out a couple of cans and
00:27:15I'm going to throw this in there the bag instead of buying course later or bought her some of that so I've witnessed a beer for every occasion is not right well I think that we deserve some guys Brian so let's let's do this thing
00:27:43and that's it for another season of foodstuffs can you believe it and thanks this week go to map pack from Braddock Brewery located at Bloor and just a little bit West of Dufferin if you're in the area it really is a special place nice place to sit and have a afternoon summary beer wraps that's what's in the cards for this afternoon as always would love to thank Eric bethlem and Ken star of ciut thank you so much for your support as always for season 4 of foodstuffs is as we said the final episode of Season 4 and honestly we're having a blast in the show it's so much fun to talk about food and everything that is connected to it as we learned is everything we're getting to talk to some interesting people and where do out and hopefully share a lot of perspectives that we think you as an audience find interesting
00:28:43we like to show we think it's a good show we want to keep it going
00:28:47but we need your help if we're going to keep foodstuffs going we need to be able to monetize that would allow us to pay ourselves to pay other people to help us continue to grow the show and that means approaching sponsors and approaching a sponsor means that we need to be able to talk about you guys are audience who are you what are you interested in what do you like what do you open your wallet for so we went ahead and created a foodstuffs listener survey to help us gather info if you want to help us keep the show alive we would love that you can go to our Facebook page and you'll find our listener survey there please fill it out we will have it pinned to the top of our Facebook page over the break and if you already follow us on Facebook just give us a search under foodstuffs and give us a like while you're at it
00:29:46you can find us on Instagram and Twitter at foodstuffs life as well as I just said on Facebook by searching foodstuffs subscribe to iTunes or Google play or wherever you get your podcasts for taking a well-deserved break right Brian but you will not stop seeing us on Instagram on Facebook and on Twitter be in touch let us know if you heard something cool have reticle article think we should check something out we love hearing from you will be back shortly for season 5 all charged up and ready to go and that's a wrap on season 4 we will see you soon for season 5 thank you so much for listening

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