Full Transcript for Steve Jackson

be fun. 75 00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:54.060 And so then you worked at Metagaming Concepts for a while, 76 00:04:54.180 --> 00:04:56.490 but you left and formed your own company. Why was that? 77 00:04:57.939 --> 00:05:01.209 Uh the standard answer in a situation like that is 78 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:06.370 creative differences okay the owner had a company which he 79 00:05:06.610 --> 00:05:09.430 owned and he wanted to do things his way and 80 00:05:09.550 --> 00:05:11.620 i was cool with that but i didn't want to 81 00:05:11.660 --> 00:05:12.680 do things his way. 82 00:05:13.459 --> 00:05:17.519 And so was the was the breakup acrimonious or not at. 83 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.500 First it was in the courts before it was done. 84 00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:25.610 So your first game then is a classic and one 85 00:05:25.670 --> 00:05:29.170 that doesn't get picked very often on this show. And 86 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:33.750 this is Scrabble. So why do you think, what is 87 00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:37.430 the appeal of Scrabble and why do you think gamers 88 00:05:37.649 --> 00:05:41.370 look on it with the disdain that they do? I, 89 00:05:41.889 --> 00:05:46.610 I haven't encountered that disdain, but, uh, maybe I've been 90 00:05:46.649 --> 00:05:48.329 hanging out on the wrong boards. 91 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:55.589 It's, uh, deeply tactical area control game that happens to 92 00:05:55.649 --> 00:05:56.949 involve making words. 93 00:05:59.209 --> 00:06:03.110 And so then tell us, because I've played Scrabble. I 94 00:06:03.149 --> 00:06:07.860 consider myself reasonable with words, but I'm terrible at Scrabble. 95 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.139 And you're not the first person to have said to 96 00:06:10.180 --> 00:06:13.980 me that it's not a word game. It's a tactical 97 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:16.560 area control game. How does one be good at Scrabble? 98 00:06:18.379 --> 00:06:22.800 Uh, get whooped repeatedly by someone who is good at 99 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:26.779 Scrabble and watch what they do when they're not making 100 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:31.259 eight letter words. Watch where they put the words. Watch 101 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:33.019 where they put the letters in the words. 102 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:37.360 And so then you said in your notes that you 103 00:06:37.379 --> 00:06:41.870 sent me that you wanted to bring also foreign language dictionaries. 104 00:06:42.550 --> 00:06:42.769 Yes. 105 00:06:43.569 --> 00:06:45.810 Is this because you speak those languages, or is it 106 00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:49.949 possible to play Scrabble if you don't know the language? 107 00:06:51.649 --> 00:06:54.790 I forget what. I mean, short answer, yes. 108 00:06:55.250 --> 00:06:56.569 One was definitely Spanish. 109 00:06:57.829 --> 00:07:04.910 Yeah. Longer answer, there is a national Scrabble champion, and 110 00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:07.689 it would be easy to Google it, but I don't remember, 111 00:07:07.970 --> 00:07:13.560 who doesn't speak

the language. Um, he, uh, he's, he's 112 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:17.990 got an unusual mind. He spent some time memorizing the 113 00:07:18.029 --> 00:07:20.250 dictionary and then he went and won. 114 00:07:21.490 --> 00:07:23.829 I believe he's the guy who learned, I think he's 115 00:07:23.850 --> 00:07:27.709 the guy who learned Icelandic in three weeks or something. 116 00:07:28.029 --> 00:07:30.100 He's one of these guys who's exceptional at these. 117 00:07:30.379 --> 00:07:35.540 Not impossible, but no, I have enough French and Spanish 118 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:41.220 to read the newspaper. Um, enough to understand simple instructions, 119 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:45.889 but not enough to give them anymore. But my vocabulary 120 00:07:45.970 --> 00:07:49.490 is solid, and I just think it would be fun 121 00:07:49.569 --> 00:07:52.709 to play a game where foreign words were allowed, just 122 00:07:52.829 --> 00:07:54.149 to spice it up a little bit. 123 00:07:55.170 --> 00:07:58.089 I speak German, but I'm not sure there's enough room 124 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:02.490 on the board to fit most of the words on. 125 00:08:02.490 --> 00:08:05.959 Well, turn corners. 126 00:08:06.939 --> 00:08:12.540 Indeed, indeed. I want to talk now about Steve Jackson Games. 127 00:08:14.500 --> 00:08:17.629 You left your previous employer and you started this new company. 128 00:08:17.930 --> 00:08:19.389 What was the original intention? 129 00:08:22.649 --> 00:08:26.069 Because the breakup was friendly at first, what happened was 130 00:08:26.170 --> 00:08:31.019 that I bought Space Gamer Magazine, which the owner of 131 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:34.220 Metagaming no longer wanted to bother with because it didn't 132 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.659 make a lot of money. I knew perfectly well it 133 00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:38.820 didn't make a lot of money, but it would be 134 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:42.860 cool to have a gaming magazine. And I figured I 135 00:08:43.419 --> 00:08:45.500 could make enough money to eat. 136 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:49.860 And so, yeah, sorry, carry on. 137 00:08:50.379 --> 00:08:53.460 That proved to be the case. But after a year 138 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:57.159 or so, I was like, I want to write some 139 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:57.700 more games. 140 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.899 And so then how long was it? Because starting a 141 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.480 company is always, I imagine at the beginning, especially if 142 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:08.919 you've not got tons of capital. always kind of a 143 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.720 torrid thing. How long before you realized Steve Jackson Games 144 00:09:14.120 --> 00:09:15.559 was a going concern? 145 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:22.330 I'd say it was probably three to five years in. 146 00:09:26.110 --> 00:09:29.389 After Illuminati and Car Wars, it was obvious that I 147 00:09:29.450 --> 00:09:31.509 could do games people wanted to buy. 148 00:09:33.929 --> 00:09:37.110 And so back at that time, when we talk about 149 00:09:37.740 --> 00:09:41.720 hobby games a print run of 3000 and selling a 150 00:09:41.750 --> 00:09:46.009 print run of 3000 is considered a sort of moderate 151 00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:49.309 success what kind of numbers were you selling and how 152 00:09:49.350 --> 00:09:52.629 did you get the word out about those guys. 153 00:09:52.210 --> 00:09:57.870 Um we were selling print runs of 5 000 and 154 00:09:57.950 --> 00:10:03.990 sometimes reprinting part of that is that uh like the 155 00:10:04.070 --> 00:10:07.409 original metagaming micro games we were at a very low 156 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:14.259 price point and uh i called the distributors myself and 157 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:19.580 called and called and went to conventions and and established 158 00:10:19.779 --> 00:10:23.460 sales terms that said pretty much in so many words, 159 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:26.740 you can send back what you can't sell if it's 160 00:10:27.620 --> 00:10:31.340 still in condition that I can sell it. Oddly enough, 161 00:10:31.460 --> 00:10:33.419 we almost never had to make good on that. 162 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.909 And so we've kind of touched on your previous acrimony 163 00:10:39.429 --> 00:10:42.190 with your previous employer, but part of the basis of 164 00:10:42.250 --> 00:10:45.210 Steve Jackson Games was games like Ogre that you'd published 165 00:10:45.269 --> 00:10:54.200 through them previously. How fraught was the reacquisition of those rights? 166 00:10:57.259 --> 00:11:01.750 Pretty fraught. I had a contract that said I could 167 00:11:01.789 --> 00:11:08.090 buy them back. And he said, no, you can't buy 168 00:11:08.110 --> 00:11:12.110 them back. And I said, but it's in the contract 169 00:11:12.190 --> 00:11:17.679 and you wrote the contract. And he said, huh? And 170 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:18.919 then we both hired lawyers. 171 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:23.580 And how long did that take? And did it cost 172 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:25.919 you a lot of money? It must have been terrible 173 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:27.320 for a fledgling publisher. 174 00:11:28.059 --> 00:11:30.590 It cost a certain amount of money, but it wasn't 175 00:11:30.620 --> 00:11:31.679 a complicated case. 176 00:11:35.330 --> 00:11:39.669 And so then, you also, around this time, because you 177 00:11:39.830 --> 00:11:43.490 often get confused for the other Steve Jacksons. The one 178 00:11:43.529 --> 00:11:45.690 that's accents is closer to mine. And you wrote some 179 00:11:45.730 --> 00:11:50.950 stuff for the Final Fantasy... Fighting Fantasy. Excuse me, Fighting 180 00:11:50.990 --> 00:11:55.379 Fantasy Games. Is it annoying to be confused with the 181 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:57.919 other Steve Jackson or is it just an occupational hazard? 182 00:11:59.539 --> 00:12:08.690 Usually it's amusing because it immediately launches a conversation. And 183 00:12:08.889 --> 00:12:09.870 Steve is a great guy. 184 00:12:11.450 -->

00:12:14.009 And is it true that when you published the fighting 185 00:12:14.029 --> 00:12:17.029 fantasy games, they didn't stipulate that it was a different 186 00:12:17.049 --> 00:12:17.669 Steve Jackson? 187 00:12:17.769 --> 00:12:20.539 That is correct. There's no way to look at the 188 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:23.360 original ones and have any idea. 189 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.159 And so doing my research, I found out that in 1990, 190 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:29.460 and you can correct me if I'm wrong because this 191 00:12:29.570 --> 00:12:34.590 is Wikipedia, but you were raided by the US Secret Service. 192 00:12:34.610 --> 00:12:37.529 Why was that and what was the circumstances? Yeah, what 193 00:12:37.549 --> 00:12:38.730 was the circumstances behind it? 194 00:12:39.460 --> 00:12:45.169 Okay, the short version, and there's a long version, but 195 00:12:45.210 --> 00:12:49.509 you can find it online. The short version is that 196 00:12:49.809 --> 00:12:54.779 the U.S. Secret Service had very recently, in a bureaucratic 197 00:12:55.320 --> 00:13:02.720 power game, been given investigational rights, which they interpreted to 198 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:10.049 include hacking. Because the letter of the regulation was wire fraud. 199 00:13:10.629 --> 00:13:13.570 And they said, well, hackers can get into computers and 200 00:13:14.029 --> 00:13:18.490 then do a magic thing to steal money. So we 201 00:13:18.529 --> 00:13:25.049 can investigate hackers. Now remember, I'm simplifying, but that's bullshit 202 00:13:25.090 --> 00:13:29.330 that's very close to the truth. So the Secret Service 203 00:13:29.370 --> 00:13:34.929 started investigating hackers like crazy. Hackers are hard to find, 204 00:13:34.990 --> 00:13:39.809 but wannabe hackers are everywhere and have been since the 205 00:13:39.850 --> 00:13:50.120 modem was invented. Skip a little bit, and because one 206 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:56.519 of my employees is a computer enthusiast who hangs around 207 00:13:56.580 --> 00:13:59.440 on a bulletin board with other computer enthusiasts and makes 208 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:07.230 scary talk, and undoubtedly knows technically how to call into 209 00:14:07.289 --> 00:14:13.480 a system that has the default password. I know how 210 00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:22.120 to call. We were raided on suspicion of being a 211 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:28.899 nest of hackers. And they found the manuscript for GURPS Cyberpunk, 212 00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:36.049 which their target was. individual was compiling at the time 213 00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:44.059 and they said oh now we've got them they used 214 00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:49.080 to the press the phrase a handbook for computer crime 215 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:55.480 and they took some of our computers you can read 216 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:57.450 online they took all of them and that's just not 217 00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:00.610 true they took all the ones in the editorial office 218 00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:04.889 but that included our BBS system. And that was one 219 00:15:04.909 --> 00:15:06.889 of the things that we nailed them on in the end, 220 00:15:07.750 --> 00:15:16.980 because they closed down a publication. And they took everything 221 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:21.419 they could find, which was everything but old backups, for 222 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:27.929 GARP Cyberpunk, the handbook for computer crime. And that very 223 00:15:27.990 --> 00:15:32.000 nearly put us out of business. because it had been 224 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:35.230 a bad year. GERP Cyberpunk was going to be the 225 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.740 hit that brought us back, but we couldn't publish it, 226 00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:43.549 because in the first place, we didn't have the manuscript anymore, 227 00:15:43.929 --> 00:15:45.909 and in the second place, it was a handbook for 228 00:15:45.950 --> 00:15:51.769 computer crime. So things were pretty tough for a while, 229 00:15:52.210 --> 00:15:57.929 and then the Electronic Frontier Foundation, brand new, arrived on 230 00:15:57.980 --> 00:16:02.960 the scene with all guns blazing. and said, we will 231 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.720 represent you in court against the Secret Service and clear 232 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:09.840 the name of your book, which is not a handbook 233 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.240 for computer crime, but a game where you roll dice 234 00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:18.240 and pretend to be a bad person. And they did. 235 00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:21.299 So it all worked out in the end. 236 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.450 It all worked out in the end, except that I 237 00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:26.970 lost a couple of years of growth, had to fire 238 00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:31.289 half my staff, excuse me, lay off half my staff, 239 00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:34.240 and become a poster child. 240 00:16:35.629 --> 00:16:39.759 And did the government ever compensate you for your losses eventually? 241 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:43.860 They did. We had to take them to court, and 242 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:51.000 they paid not an unfair compensation for the actual damage 243 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:56.799 that they did. Now, in some cases against the government, 244 00:16:56.899 --> 00:17:02.500 people rack up huge penalties, punitive damages and retire to Majorca. 245 00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:08.019 That was not the case here. There were no punitive damages. 246 00:17:08.059 --> 00:17:10.799 There was a real good precedent and there was some 247 00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:14.480 money and we got our computers back. Now, they had 248 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:21.369 been wrecked by the Secret Service investigation and careless. They 249 00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:24.109 didn't know how to pack them for shipping or more likely, 250 00:17:24.450 --> 00:17:27.170 they knew how to make sure that shipping would destroy 251 00:17:27.210 --> 00:17:31.319 them coming back. If you were going to ship a 252 00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:35.079 computer

from point A to point B, would you open 253 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.819 it up and put a loose hard drive from another 254 00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:40.460 system on top of the motherboard and then close it 255 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:40.839 up again? 256 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:42.359 I mean, it's not what I'd do. 257 00:17:42.819 --> 00:17:43.599 Not what you'd do. 258 00:17:43.619 --> 00:17:46.299 I'm not computer literate, but I wouldn't do that. 259 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.039 You don't have the benefit of the special training that 260 00:17:49.059 --> 00:17:50.799 they evidently gave the Secret Service. 261 00:17:51.019 --> 00:17:55.359 That is true. I don't make enough money from taxpayer dollars, unfortunately. 262 00:17:56.940 --> 00:17:57.700 What, me bidder? 263 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:04.049 So, moving on then to something... That. 264 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.230 Was my tax dollars at work doing that to me. 265 00:18:06.329 --> 00:18:07.269 We are not amused. 266 00:18:07.690 --> 00:18:12.529 Indeed. So, moving on then to something happier. Your next 267 00:18:12.589 --> 00:18:15.490 game is one of yours, and this is Munchkin, and 268 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.859 you specifically chose Munchkin Apocalypse. So, how did you come 269 00:18:18.890 --> 00:18:20.380 up with the idea for Munchkin? 270 00:18:21.220 --> 00:18:28.710 For Munchkin? It was a quick, random idea. I thought 271 00:18:28.730 --> 00:18:30.440 it would be fun to do a card game to 272 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:35.339 take the piss out of bad D & D. Just 273 00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:42.529 the players all represent the worst and most annoying type 274 00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:49.150 of gamer, and their objective is only to kill stuff 275 00:18:50.130 --> 00:18:57.549 and level up. They're Personalities change with the turn of 276 00:18:57.609 --> 00:19:00.380 a card. You're a cleric one minute and a warrior 277 00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:06.039 the next. And it caught on. 278 00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:09.380 Well, to say it caught on is an understatement because 279 00:19:09.460 --> 00:19:13.369 I work in a board game shop. And Munchkin is 280 00:19:13.549 --> 00:19:16.049 still– and this is a board game shop in Berlin 281 00:19:16.109 --> 00:19:18.450 in Germany. And the game is still on the shelf. 282 00:19:18.849 --> 00:19:23.410 It still sells well. Is it new, the Munchkin Big 283 00:19:23.569 --> 00:19:25.069 Box Munchkin 40K? 284 00:19:26.910 --> 00:19:30.799 Okay, that's two different things. We have a release called 285 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:35.359 Big Box, which was a million-dollar Kickstarter, and we have 286 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:40.420 a licensed Games Workshop Warhammer 40K. 287 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.490 Yeah, because that just came into the shop the other day, 288 00:19:44.509 --> 00:19:48.990 and Munchkin is so hugely popular. When you made it, 289 00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:52.279 did you... have any conception that Munchkin would become the 290 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:53.460 institution that it did? 291 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.859 No conception. I hoped we would get a second print run. 292 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:04.799 In fact, the first print run was 5000, our standard. 293 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:09.759 And my partner, Monica... who had helped me make up 294 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:17.650 the initial cards and play tested in my life. Sorry, 295 00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:24.930 I do this. She said, that's not enough. And that 5,000 296 00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:31.859 sold immediately. So we printed 10,000. And Monica says, that's 297 00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:39.089 not enough. And they sold out immediately. And we printed 25,000. 298 00:20:39.089 --> 00:20:42.920 And she said, that's more like it. And they still 299 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.740 sold out pretty quick. And it just kept going from there. 300 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:47.920 The biggest print run we ever did was 100,000. 301 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:48.200 And so then. 302 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:58.019 Who was initially buying that Munchkin? Everybody! Well, this is 303 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:00.279 the question, right? Because I've played a lot of D 304 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.039 & D, and Munchkin appeals to me because I understand 305 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:06.720 the tropes, but it must have spread far wider than 306 00:21:07.069 --> 00:21:08.720 D & D- obsessed people, right? 307 00:21:10.089 --> 00:21:17.130 What seems to have happened was that people who didn't 308 00:21:17.190 --> 00:21:20.930 play D & D but had been on the edges 309 00:21:21.049 --> 00:21:24.910 of it at least understood what was being said, even 310 00:21:24.950 --> 00:21:27.809 if they didn't get all the little jokes. And people 311 00:21:27.849 --> 00:21:29.700 who did play D & D liked it, and they 312 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:32.980 took it to game night and exposed it to people 313 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.000 who liked games but might not be D & D players. 314 00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:42.789 And it caught on. And I did a sequel, and 315 00:21:43.309 --> 00:21:46.529 people liked that. And I did 20 more sequels, and 316 00:21:46.569 --> 00:21:47.470 people liked them. So. 317 00:21:49.630 --> 00:21:51.839 And so, you know, it's not only a sort of 318 00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:55.460 iconic game in terms of mechanisms, in terms of the tropes, 319 00:21:55.720 --> 00:22:02.839 it's also iconic visually. That central character is one of 320 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.680 the great characters in board gaming. How important do you 321 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:09.640 think was John Kowalik's art to the success? 322 00:22:10.059 --> 00:22:18.009 Hugely. I can technically imagine a munchkin that never had 323 00:22:18.069 --> 00:22:20.799 him in it. but I don't know what it would 324 00:22:20.859 --> 00:22:24.839 be like. I love working with John. When we brainstorm, 325 00:22:24.900 --> 00:22:29.140 it's like two halves of one twisted mind, except his 326 00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:30.779

is the half that can draw. 327 00:22:33.579 --> 00:22:36.059 And so I'm interested in this because there was a phenomenon. 328 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:38.279 When I first got into board gaming, it was around 329 00:22:38.299 --> 00:22:41.589 about 2012, and there was this phenomenon, and it was 330 00:22:41.630 --> 00:22:45.430 called the tabletop bump because Will Wheaton had this show, 331 00:22:45.769 --> 00:22:50.119 Tabletop Bump. And I first came across Munchkin on tabletop. 332 00:22:50.609 --> 00:22:53.930 Yeah, that episode did us a lot of good. 333 00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:57.650 So the tabletop bump is not a myth? 334 00:22:58.509 --> 00:23:02.799 No. In fact, it's a continuing thing because you can 335 00:23:02.930 --> 00:23:08.200 still find that tabletop. And I still hear from people 336 00:23:08.259 --> 00:23:11.940 who go, how did I miss this game for 25 years? 337 00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:15.900 I just saw it on an old YouTube. And I'm like, 338 00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:16.920 I know what, YouTube. 339 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:24.109 So I want to talk now about GURPS. So GURPS 340 00:23:24.150 --> 00:23:26.369 is a name. I must confess I've not played GURPS, 341 00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.630 but GURPS is a name I knew. I first got 342 00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:31.869 introduced to role-playing in the 90s with Call of Cthulhu. 343 00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:34.990 And GURPS was around. People were talking about GURPS at 344 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.240 that time. What was the purpose of it? 345 00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:44.910 The way role-playing was going at that time was... a 346 00:23:45.029 --> 00:23:51.990 lot of systems individually created to give specific effects or 347 00:23:52.390 --> 00:23:59.369 simulate specific backgrounds. The example everybody knows because it was 348 00:23:59.470 --> 00:24:04.480 so good and persistent is Call of Cthulhu with mechanics 349 00:24:05.380 --> 00:24:11.819 specifically designed to let the game master generate the feel 350 00:24:12.339 --> 00:24:16.829 of not just horror, but creeping insanity. But there were 351 00:24:16.849 --> 00:24:20.230 a lot of these. There was Metamorphosis Alpha, and there 352 00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:22.730 were two or three Wild West games, and so on 353 00:24:22.769 --> 00:24:28.269 and so on. Totally incompatible. MMA was worst in some ways, 354 00:24:28.390 --> 00:24:34.880 because it was almost compatible. And I said, why can't 355 00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:38.720 one game do everything? And then I was three years 356 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:40.079 making that happen. 357 00:24:42.220 --> 00:24:44.759 And so what people have told me about GURPS, and 358 00:24:44.779 --> 00:24:47.759 I may be wrong here, feel free to correct me, 359 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.240 is that GURPS is a very granular system. You can 360 00:24:51.339 --> 00:24:54.519 really lean into the, for want of a better word, 361 00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:56.049 verisimilitude of the scenario. 362 00:24:56.750 -->

00:24:59.509 You can, but you don't have to. One of the 363 00:24:59.609 --> 00:25:03.890 common misconceptions is that you have to use all the 364 00:25:03.930 --> 00:25:07.809 crunchy little rules. No, those are there for the people 365 00:25:07.849 --> 00:25:08.809 who are into that stuff. 366 00:25:10.470 --> 00:25:11.950 And so what kind of role player are you? Because 367 00:25:12.130 --> 00:25:17.710 I DM and I'm very rules casual because I can't 368 00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:21.630 remember them, essentially. And so I'm very much rule of cool. 369 00:25:21.670 --> 00:25:25.440 I prefer it to be entertaining and fun rather than 370 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:28.180 cleave very closely to the rules. What kind of RPG 371 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.500 player are you? Are you a granular player or are 372 00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:32.619 you more of a casual player? 373 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:35.559 Oh, I absolutely don't use all the little crunchy rules. 374 00:25:37.940 --> 00:25:41.799 I like stuff to happen, and I like it to 375 00:25:41.819 --> 00:25:45.660 happen quickly, and I would rather it happen unpredictably. 376 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.859 And so it's a universal system where you can apply 377 00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:54.059 it to anything that you wish. What kind of people 378 00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:57.210 were really enthusiastic about GURPS when it came out? 379 00:25:59.750 --> 00:26:03.509 System freaks who saw that this was a different way 380 00:26:03.569 --> 00:26:06.890 to do things, and the people who wanted to do mashups. 381 00:26:08.109 --> 00:26:12.259 because although this wasn't in the original plan, it turns 382 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:14.920 out that a system that will cover a lot of 383 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:21.619 backgrounds is the only way to cram two backgrounds together. 384 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:24.849 Sorry, carry on. 385 00:26:25.430 --> 00:26:32.569 Eventually, good mashup systems were created, so we can have 386 00:26:32.690 --> 00:26:37.130 cyberpunk elves now. But for a while, if you were 387 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:38.529 going to do that, you were going to do it 388 00:26:38.549 --> 00:26:39.029 with GURPS. 389 00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:43.009 And did you find that there were people who loved 390 00:26:43.029 --> 00:26:46.730 the Meliora D & D but hated the mechanisms who 391 00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:49.619 would transpose their D & D campaigns into GURPS? 392 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:51.619 Oh, not more than a couple billion. 393 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:59.480 And so the last edition of GURPS was 2004. Any 394 00:26:59.619 --> 00:27:01.000 plans to bring out a new one? 395 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:04.440 We haven't announced anything yet. 396 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:12.950 Okay, I will leave that teaser hanging. So then your 397 00:27:12.990 --> 00:27:16.730 next game then is a really popular game at the moment. 398 00:27:16.750 --> 00:27:20.450 This is Terraforming Mars. Terraforming Mars, when it came out, 399 00:27:20.490 --> 00:27:24.599 was a massive success straight off the bat. Why do 400 00:27:24.619 --> 00:27:25.380 you think that is? 401 00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:28.240 You said it was a popular game at the moment. 402 00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:32.400 It has been a popular game for seven, eight years 403 00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:32.980 of moments. 404 00:27:34.569 --> 00:27:34.680 Mm-hmm. 405 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:39.420 Well, I guess it would beg the question to say, 406 00:27:39.460 --> 00:27:47.329 cause it's good. Um, it's challenging. Not everybody is willing 407 00:27:47.380 --> 00:27:50.230 to keep up with six different currencies and play for 408 00:27:50.269 --> 00:27:53.529 four hours. The people who like that kind of thing 409 00:27:53.569 --> 00:27:59.170 don't have a lot of choices. Um, and I don't 410 00:27:59.190 --> 00:28:01.230 know of any choices they have that are as much 411 00:28:01.410 --> 00:28:11.910 fun as terraforming. Um, It's weakly interactive between the players. 412 00:28:13.569 --> 00:28:18.430 You're mostly building your own machine. But every so often, 413 00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:24.390 there's an opportunity to grab a resource that somebody else 414 00:28:24.470 --> 00:28:29.079 wanted out of pure malice. And there are even a 415 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.299 few cards that are for deliberate shin kicking, although the 416 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:35.519 good players that I know don't take those cards. 417 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:39.279 Right. So my experience with terraforming Mars was being appalled 418 00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:43.130 at building my nice little base and then someone playing 419 00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:45.349 one of those take that cards on me and killing 420 00:28:45.410 --> 00:28:46.250 all of my plants. 421 00:28:46.869 --> 00:28:58.789 Yes, that's not the worst one. But yeah, I think 422 00:28:58.849 --> 00:29:01.920 it's more fun to play terraforming if you keep the 423 00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:03.299 shin kicking to a minimum. 424 00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:09.450 And so... I'm not a game designer, and part of 425 00:29:09.710 --> 00:29:14.630 the joy I get from gaming is putting something on 426 00:29:14.650 --> 00:29:18.039 the table and not kind of being able to grasp 427 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:21.680 how the hell this person came up with this thing. 428 00:29:22.099 --> 00:29:25.880 How do you put these things together to make this 429 00:29:25.940 --> 00:29:29.609 machine that delivers joy? You're not clearly in that school. 430 00:29:29.650 --> 00:29:33.670 You're a game design expert. When you look at a 431 00:29:33.690 --> 00:29:35.950 game like Terraforming Mars, do you play it as a 432 00:29:35.970 --> 00:29:37.730 game designer or do you play it as a gamer? 433 00:29:40.059 --> 00:29:42.980 I usually play it as a gamer. I mean, I 434 00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:47.200 became a game designer because I was a gamer and 435 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:50.400 I had an opportunity to make a little money doing

436 00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:55.240 editorial work on a game. And I was as surprised 437 00:29:55.369 --> 00:29:58.970 as the next man when it turned out that I 438 00:29:59.029 --> 00:30:05.420 could write a good game. But it was fun. I 439 00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:09.180 enjoy designing games even more than I enjoy playing them. 440 00:30:11.809 --> 00:30:13.349 So I want to move on now and talk about 441 00:30:13.529 --> 00:30:17.890 something that someone who's been in the industry so long 442 00:30:18.210 --> 00:30:21.549 and has had as much success as you have. has 443 00:30:21.609 --> 00:30:24.329 a an idea of and this is sort of recognition 444 00:30:24.349 --> 00:30:27.470 so you've won loads of awards over the years you've 445 00:30:27.490 --> 00:30:30.400 been recognized you've been put in the origins hall of 446 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:33.240 fame and all of that sort of stuff is that 447 00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:36.279 stuff important to you is it a vindication of what 448 00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:37.079 you've done. 449 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:45.319 It makes me very happy that people like what i'm 450 00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:49.539 doing and are having fun with it and if that 451 00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:51.079 generates awards cool. 452 00:30:53.500 --> 00:30:55.640 And so when you think of the sort of pantheon 453 00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.119 of great American game makers, where do you think you 454 00:30:59.180 --> 00:31:03.390 sit in that? Do you sit alongside people like Sid Saxon, 455 00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:04.490 like Richard Garfield? 456 00:31:07.950 --> 00:31:13.779 That would feel like a stretch. Garfield is a mathematical genius. 457 00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:20.599 Saxon is so prolific. And most of it is very, 458 00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:26.329 very good. So, you know, I'm not going to draw 459 00:31:26.369 --> 00:31:32.190 the long bow and say that I'm their equal or Dr. Canizia, 460 00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:35.009 for instance. But I seem to be okay. 461 00:31:37.329 --> 00:31:42.880 And so when you think about a life... So most 462 00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:47.119 people hate their job. And I assume... being a game 463 00:31:47.140 --> 00:31:51.450 designer is a job that has its frustrations, but is 464 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:53.630 the kind of dream job, especially for the kind of 465 00:31:53.670 --> 00:31:57.029 people who are listening to this show. When you reflect 466 00:31:57.109 --> 00:31:59.210 on a life doing a job you love, is that 467 00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:00.509 incredibly satisfying? 468 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.680 It makes me really, really sad for people who hate 469 00:32:04.700 --> 00:32:10.519 their jobs. I have trouble comprehending the idea of going 470 00:32:10.619 --> 00:32:13.900 to a job every day that you hated. I did 471 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:20.910 have one like that once for about Five weeks. And 472 00:32:21.710 --> 00:32:25.809 the day I decided to quit, they called me in 473 00:32:25.910 --> 00:32:29.029 first thing and laid me off, which was much more 474 00:32:29.089 --> 00:32:35.200 profitable than quitting. So that was good luck. If anybody's curious, 475 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:39.000 it was a typesetting job where I was the interface 476 00:32:39.059 --> 00:32:45.390 to copy strings of numbers from a printout to a keyboard. 477 00:32:46.410 --> 00:32:51.150 You cannot imagine a more deadening job. And that job, 478 00:32:51.210 --> 00:32:54.529 of course, doesn't exist anymore because now you can read 479 00:32:54.569 --> 00:32:56.829 a printout straight into a file. 480 00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:03.319 I did work in a factory once putting empty bottles 481 00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:06.180 onto a conveyor belt for 12 hours a night. So 482 00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:09.500 I have an insight into mind-numbing work. 483 00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:15.309 That would be pretty awful. I don't know... There are 484 00:33:15.329 --> 00:33:17.950 reasons to take jobs. I'm going to tell a story 485 00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:22.329 now on a friend, Mike Pondsmith of Artalsorian Games, designer 486 00:33:22.349 --> 00:33:29.079 of Cyberpunk. Brilliant guy. Mike took a second job a 487 00:33:29.140 --> 00:33:36.220 few years ago for a few months, bucking grocery carts 488 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:39.569 on the night shift. And he did it just to 489 00:33:39.609 --> 00:33:45.309 get into conditions. If I recall correctly, he said he 490 00:33:45.369 --> 00:33:49.660 hadn't been able to make himself exercise, so he took 491 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:51.920 a job where somebody else was going to make him 492 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.170 exercise constantly and even pay him a little for it. 493 00:33:57.779 --> 00:34:01.650 And did it work? Is he now Arnold Schwarzenegger? 494 00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:10.610 No, but he's pretty buff. I mean, for someone his age, 495 00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:13.940 which is not as advanced as mine, but He has 496 00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:17.900 some honorable gray hairs. He's in good shape, and we're 497 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:19.639 going to see a lot more designs out of Mike. 498 00:34:21.139 --> 00:34:24.530 Except his hobby is paleontology, and he's spending time now 499 00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:25.510 digging dinosaurs. 500 00:34:26.630 --> 00:34:30.369 That would be a job I could do, if I 501 00:34:30.429 --> 00:34:31.650 knew anything about it, of course. 502 00:34:32.309 --> 00:34:36.539 Well, I do know a little bit about it. A 503 00:34:36.619 --> 00:34:43.719 field worker's job is physically miserable. But you get to 504 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:44.800 dig up dinosaurs. 505 00:34:45.739 --> 00:34:48.760 There must be that moment where you see something and 506 00:34:48.780 --> 00:34:51.519 then you pull out a dinosaur bone. It must just 507 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:52.179 be magical. 508 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:52.960 Yeah. 509 00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:56.860 So your next game then, kind of similar to that, 510 00:34:56.880 -->

00:35:00.510 you could find these in the ground. This is Century Golem. 511 00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:03.780 So how elegant is this game? 512 00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:13.260 Completely. The skin on it is so arbitrary. It's just 513 00:35:13.900 --> 00:35:26.489 a game about running the numbers, building a machine. The 514 00:35:26.530 --> 00:35:29.869 skin is pretty. I like to look at the golem 515 00:35:29.909 --> 00:35:32.989 pictures and play with the little crystals and so on, 516 00:35:33.449 --> 00:35:37.480 but they're totally unnecessary. The game is a pure experience, 517 00:35:38.780 --> 00:35:42.900 and it's very good as a two-player game. Monica and 518 00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:45.380 I used to play head-to-head. She won a lot. 519 00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:50.360 And so when I– so I play a lot of 520 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.289 sort of big, modern Euro games. And the thing when 521 00:35:54.329 --> 00:35:59.389 I'm playing them often is I think, you could have 522 00:35:59.409 --> 00:36:01.329 cut 30% of this and it would have been a 523 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:06.000 far better game. Oh, yeah. And something like Century is 524 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:11.230 sort of pure– mechanisms with no fat. Do you think 525 00:36:11.269 --> 00:36:14.449 game design has become too overwrought in the last decade? 526 00:36:17.329 --> 00:36:22.570 No, I think there's always been that strain. Do you 527 00:36:22.610 --> 00:36:31.980 know the story of how Apples to Apples came to be? Okay. So... 528 00:36:35.619 --> 00:36:41.690 Several years ago, an aspiring designer... took his game design 529 00:36:41.989 --> 00:36:49.190 to a show and showed it to a group of 530 00:36:49.969 --> 00:36:58.070 possible publishers. And the reaction was, yeah, too complicated, too 531 00:36:58.090 --> 00:37:03.010 much happening, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. But that night 532 00:37:03.070 --> 00:37:06.159 at dinner, as the guys who had looked at it 533 00:37:06.219 --> 00:37:09.389 were talking among themselves, One of them became kind of 534 00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:14.269 abstracted and he said, you remember this part? If you 535 00:37:14.329 --> 00:37:18.010 just took that part, you'd have a game. That part 536 00:37:18.269 --> 00:37:22.969 was the apples to apples mechanic. And they went back 537 00:37:23.090 --> 00:37:26.409 to the original designer and said, here is money. 538 00:37:29.869 --> 00:37:32.389 And the rest, as they say, is very much history. 539 00:37:33.059 --> 00:37:35.619 So I want to talk about the future now. So 540 00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:38.480 you might have dropped a little hint earlier, but What 541 00:37:38.500 --> 00:37:40.019 do you have coming out in the future? 542 00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:44.619 Oh, glad you asked because next year is going to 543 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:47.980 be very good. And the year after that's going to 544 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:54.710 be pretty good too. Um, we have, uh, a role 545 00:37:54.730 --> 00:38:00.250 playing game coming from J dragon. It's called, uh, seven 546 00:38:00.289 --> 00:38:05.300 part pact. It is not like any role playing game 547 00:38:05.340 --> 00:38:11.210 that's ever been done before. Uh, There is no individual 548 00:38:12.449 --> 00:38:18.159 game master. All the players get to game master from 549 00:38:18.219 --> 00:38:24.719 time to time. Character creation is complicated, but doesn't involve 550 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:32.199 very many numbers. It involves decisions. And when you're done, 551 00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:35.650 you have created a bunch of probably wicked, probably old 552 00:38:35.750 --> 00:38:41.900 men who are the most powerful individuals in their whole world. 553 00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:47.170 They're the only thing that stands between the world and 554 00:38:47.230 --> 00:38:51.610 several messy dunes. And does anybody thank them? No, no, 555 00:38:51.730 --> 00:38:53.909 they're old men who know too many spells. 556 00:38:57.090 --> 00:38:59.639 And so is this, so the classic thing with a 557 00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:03.059 role-playing game is you start, you start weak and then 558 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:07.400 you level up to mastery. So the characters start off 559 00:39:07.929 --> 00:39:09.050 hugely powerful. 560 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:14.320 They start off hugely powerful. They can leverage their powers 561 00:39:15.219 --> 00:39:19.099 to gain a few more abilities during play if they 562 00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:24.449 can find the time, because the critical resource in Seven-Part 563 00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:31.780 Pact is time. Every month is divided in four weeks. 564 00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:38.719 The wizard can do one notable thing per week. And 565 00:39:38.900 --> 00:39:44.489 notable for a wizard is a very... It's very notable. 566 00:39:45.809 --> 00:39:48.769 One of the problems the wizards have is they can't 567 00:39:48.849 --> 00:39:55.800 be subtle. I mean, how are you going to clean 568 00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:58.590 up your garden if the weakest spell you have is 569 00:39:58.630 --> 00:40:06.989 lightning bolt? That's an imaginary example, but they're trying to 570 00:40:07.329 --> 00:40:11.519 control the whole world, or at least keep the whole 571 00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:17.320 world out of trouble, and they can literally move the 572 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:22.699 planets around without if they need to, to make the 573 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:26.460 heavens more acceptable to the spell they want to cast. 574 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:29.519 But they can't just pick a flower. 575 00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:38.090 And so it changes from the problem in other role-playing 576 00:40:38.110 --> 00:40:40.250 games is dealing with your own weakness, it's dealing with 577 00:40:40.269 --> 00:40:40.949 your own strength. 578 00:40:41.329 --> 00:40:45.989 Dealing with your own strength and dealing with your peers. Because... 579 00:40:48.179 --> 00:40:50.679 The wizards are not all the same person and do 580

00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:54.639 not all want the same thing. Sometimes their interests are 581 00:40:54.929 --> 00:40:59.869 directly opposed. Sometimes they're only a little bit opposed, and 582 00:40:59.889 --> 00:41:01.610 then you have negotiation going on. 583 00:41:03.630 --> 00:41:05.150 And so when can we see this? 584 00:41:07.190 --> 00:41:11.929 It's going to take about a year to write the 585 00:41:12.090 --> 00:41:15.400 final words. I think all the words are written to 586 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:20.659 edit the final words. and test a little bit more 587 00:41:21.780 --> 00:41:25.159 on the final words, and then send it off to 588 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:29.039 get it very elaborately printed, because it's going to be 589 00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:32.739 a luxe game. It's going to be beautiful. 590 00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:38.420 So then, when you think back over your career in 591 00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:42.800 gaming from the early 80s to the present day, what 592 00:41:42.820 --> 00:41:44.889 do you think your greatest achievement has been? 593 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:55.699 Oh, now I'm tempted just to say not dying. Because 594 00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:03.650 that's one way to get a long career? Maybe Illuminati. 595 00:42:03.769 --> 00:42:10.150 Illuminati is the one where I was most original. It draws, 596 00:42:11.090 --> 00:42:17.250 of course, on both true history and filthy lies. But... 597 00:42:18.530 --> 00:42:19.969 The game system is. 598 00:42:21.550 --> 00:42:24.530 I'm proud of the game system. I suppose I should 599 00:42:24.570 --> 00:42:32.090 put in a plug. There is an adaptation of Illuminati 600 00:42:32.690 --> 00:42:36.949 on Steam, and it's about to do a hard launch. 601 00:42:37.989 --> 00:42:42.420 You can play it now, but it's getting better daily, 602 00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:44.119 and the hard launch will be soon. 603 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.940 So your last game, then, is another one of yours. 604 00:42:48.590 --> 00:42:52.030 but it's one that is not out yet. And this 605 00:42:52.070 --> 00:42:55.039 is Nameless Island. And you said that you could take 606 00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:57.760 it to the cabin and playtest it. Well, tell us 607 00:42:57.820 --> 00:42:58.780 about Nameless Island. 608 00:42:59.380 --> 00:43:08.119 Okay, it's not my design. I'm just doing development and 609 00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:12.690 fanboying because I think it's a lot of fun. In 610 00:43:12.989 --> 00:43:22.739 Nameless Island, it's set... oh, maybe 100 years ago, before GPS. 611 00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:28.800 Your ship is wrecked. You're cast ashore. You have no 612 00:43:28.900 --> 00:43:31.239 idea where you are, and it turns out to not 613 00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:40.039 be a nice place. So it's player versus environment, and 614 00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:45.619 the environment is not survivable in the long term. If 615 00:43:45.699 --> 00:43:50.489 you don't get off the island, you will go crazy 616 00:43:50.570 --> 00:43:54.989 or you will die. And the sooner you can get 617 00:43:55.090 --> 00:44:01.260 off the island, the better. And it's really too bad 618 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:10.219 that one of the castaways doesn't want to leave. 619 00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:12.190 So you.... 620 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.210 Go beachcombing and try and find useful bits of your ship. 621 00:44:19.429 --> 00:44:24.150 You go fishing or go into the jungle to try 622 00:44:24.170 --> 00:44:29.269 to find food. You won't find enough. You look for water. 623 00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:34.119 Most of the water you can find is not clean, 624 00:44:34.179 --> 00:44:38.519 and you risk traveler's complaint, which costs you hit points 625 00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:40.840 if you drink it. But if you don't drink it, 626 00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:45.090 you're going to die. You can try to collect rainwater. 627 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:49.909 For that, you need a rainstorm. But unless you can 628 00:44:49.949 --> 00:44:54.030 build a shelter, you're sitting out there in the rainstorm, 629 00:44:55.309 --> 00:45:02.130 getting sick and going slowly mad. So dealing with the 630 00:45:02.190 --> 00:45:06.260 environment is not fun. What's fun is that each player 631 00:45:06.440 --> 00:45:11.219 has a personality and some special abilities that can be 632 00:45:11.260 --> 00:45:23.969 very helpful. And You role play. And pretty soon you 633 00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:29.000 find out who's willing to give up food to keep 634 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:34.139 the little girl alive or whatever. It's engrossing. 635 00:45:36.260 --> 00:45:38.699 So I've got one last question then. So you're heading 636 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:41.710 out to the cabin. And you go around a corner 637 00:45:41.730 --> 00:45:43.650 and the back door of the car flies open. Four 638 00:45:43.670 --> 00:45:45.610 of the games fly out down a ravine into a 639 00:45:45.650 --> 00:45:48.610 river and are swept away to posterity. Which game do 640 00:45:48.630 --> 00:45:50.510 you hope is sitting on the back seat of the car? 641 00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:55.099 Nameless Island, because that's going to give me the greatest 642 00:45:55.179 --> 00:46:00.079 mental involvement stuck there in the cabin. And you can 643 00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.199 play it with at least eight so I can keep 644 00:46:02.260 --> 00:46:04.440 a lot of my fellow cabin mates busy. 645 00:46:05.989 --> 00:46:08.929 So then, if people want to know When your new 646 00:46:08.989 --> 00:46:10.630 stuff is coming out and all of that, how can 647 00:46:10.650 --> 00:46:11.590 they go about doing that? 648 00:46:13.159 --> 00:46:22.619 The website is the best way. It's www.sjgames.com. We have 649 00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:26.619 a daily blog. We don't have a daily blog. We 650 00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:32.280 have the oldest blog on the internet for regular updates. 651 00:46:34.550 --> 00:46:37.769 I mean, yeah, there are fossils out there where somebody 652 00:46:37.809 --> 00:46:40.969 started a blog, but they didn't keep it up. But 653 00:46:41.070 --> 00:46:45.130 ours has been running every day since we started. And 654 00:46:46.050 --> 00:46:48.469 we have been claiming to be the oldest for a while, 655 00:46:48.909 --> 00:46:52.380 and no human or AI has ever told us differently. 656 00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:58.099 Well, and with that then, Steve Jackson, thank you very much. 657 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.170 Thank you. This has been a fun one. 658 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:23.860 And clicking the button. Also, if you want to say 659 00:47:23.909 --> 00:47:25.210 something nice about the show, if you want to say 660 00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:27.030 something horrible about the show, you can send me an 661 00:47:27.110 --> 00:47:31.550 email at 5games4doomsday at gmail.com. And if I've succeeded in 662 00:47:31.630 --> 00:47:35.980 loping away from the claws without cats and this bloody cold, 663 00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:40.900 I'll see you in two weeks for another 5 Games 664 00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:41.579 for Doomsday.