TRANSCRIPT 🔗
Yasmin London: Hey there, First Movers, and welcome to the First Movers podcast. I'm your host, Yasmin London. I wanted to come to you today with a bit of a problem, a bit of a provocation that so many different parents are just like me are probably experiencing right now. Now, my kids are nine and twelve, and the phone conversations, particularly for my 12-year-old, have officially started. You know the ones, the but everyone else is getting one and everyone else in class has one. How am I going to talk to all of my friends? And with one of my kids heading into high school, as I said, I actually think that last question is, to be honest, a pretty fair one. I want my kids to stay connected. I want them to be part of those friendship groups as they get older. I want them to have a lot more independence, of course, and to be able to contact me when they need me and eventually to start. Navigating more of the world without me necessarily standing beside them. Now, for me, this isn't necessarily a debate on whether technology is good or bad. Technology is going to be part of their lives, no matter what I or we always think. But the much more useful question and one that I'd like to challenge you to think about today is how we introduce it. Now, as many of you know, I've spent years working in online safety. I've seen technology give families some genuinely useful tools to help us do exactly that parental control tools, content filters, ⁓ screen time settings, location sharing, connected devices, even connected watches sometimes. Used well, they can actually give children more freedom while still putting age-appropriate guardrails in place for them. But I think there's another conversation that we need to have before we hand over that first phone. Because New Australian research actually gives us an interesting glimpse into where some of this can actually lead. And it's not always what parents expect. Now, the Office of the E Safety Commissioner found almost one in five 18 to 24 year olds, so obviously once they get into adulthood, they think it's reasonable to expect. To track a romantic partner wherever they go. Totally reasonable. Almost one in three thinks that constantly texting a partner to ask what they're doing or who they're with is a sign of care. And that raises a much bigger question for me as both an online safety specialist and a parent, which is how do we help our kids become connected without actually teaching them that being constantly accessible is the price of belonging? Or worse, the price of love. Because the first phone isn't just a device, it's actually an introduction to an entirely new set of social rules around access, around privacy, around friendship and boundaries, and eventually their personal relationships. This now the everyone has one. Conversation, like so many different parents around the world, as I mentioned, I'm dealing with it. ⁓ and it's quite an interrogation in our household, if I'm quite honest. Now, my instinctive response is obviously to say, I don't care what everybody else is doing, which is a wonderfully satisfying per parenting answer. ⁓ but unfortunately doesn't actually solve the problem for us here. Because particularly as kids move into high school, digital access. Does become part of how their friendships are formed and importantly how those friendships are actually maintained. Plans are made digitally. Kids talk after school. Information gets shared in these platforms, their social lives increasingly move between these physical and these digital world spaces. And belonging in those spaces, whether we want to be dismissive of it or not, really does matter. I don't want fear of technology to leave my children disconnected from their peers. But I also don't think social pressure should decide when they're ready for a smartphone or even the features that are on a lot of these smartphones. These are two different and fairly distinct things. So perhaps a better question isn't what age should my child get a phone? It's what does my child actually need from the technology? What do I need that technology to help them do right now? And is it you know, balanced and safe and okay for them. If the need is contacting family, solve for that. If it's staying connected with their friends, think about what communication tools are appropriate or what alternatives might actually be available for them. If it's about greater independence, which is very important, maybe other features might become more useful. We don't necessarily have to go from no phone to the entire internet in their pocket completely overnight. And that's one idea that I guess I keep coming back to as a parent. The first phone isn't just one decision, it's actually a series of different permissions. And those permissions aren't a set and forget. They're something that that should grow and evolve with your child. So before we give them the phone, we have to think about the fact that most of our conversations around that first phone often tend to be a bit practical. Which device, which apps, How much screen time are we going to allow them to have? Where's that phone going to live? What parental controls are we going to actually use? Or are we even going to use them at all? And those are all really, really important, but I'd add something else to this list. And that is digital consent. Now stay with me here because, you know, this isn't some woke style addition to the parenting conversation. I often hear this sort of stuff poo-pooed. Why would we ask consent? When ⁓ you know, we're parents, we need to be making decisions for our kids. Now, we spend a lot of time teaching kids about different types of consent, consent over their bodies, ⁓ and and rightly so, because they're growing up in a world where they need to understand consent. Now, because once that phone arrives, other people have access to them in ways that they didn't before, we have to be on top of this because friends can
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message them without going through you. People can see whether they're online or not and at what times. They can see whether a message has been read. And I know that red receipts have often been a source of ⁓ problematic behavior or conflict for a lot of young people because of the lack of boundaries and those those expectations to respond immediately. I know the group chats can continue long after school has finished. People might ask them for photographs for their passwords. And of course, their location. Now, for adults, a lot of this feels probably fairly mundane in some ways, but for a 12 or a 13-year-old, these interactions help them establish what they believe digital friendships and later those intimate relationships are supposed to look like. That's why I think we need to talk about the rules around digital consent before. They have to work them out in real life. And it really comes down to this concept, I guess, of care versus control. Now, this came up in a recent conversation that I had with the incredible Danielle Miller, who is the CEO of Enlightened Education. So keep an eye out for this conversation coming up in the next few weeks on the podcast. But we talked about young people's relationships, consent, and the way these behaviors can initially look like someone being very caring, but ultimately. Resulting in more coercive control or control-based behaviors. Location sharing, for example, is a really interesting one because the technology itself isn't inherently bad or good. And there are perfectly legitimate reasons for families to choose to share a location. ESafety itself makes this particular distinction. Its concern isn't that consensual location sharing between families or couples is a problem. It's the expectation that someone should should be able to track a romantic partner wherever they want, whenever they want, particularly when it's part of another set of controlling behaviors there. So think about the difference between a parent saying, we're using location sharing because you're starting to travel independently and we want to know that you've arrived safely, and a future partner saying, if you loved me, you'd let me see where you are all the time. And that's why I think there are three key concepts worth teaching our kids early about purpose, about power, and about consent. Now, what's the purpose of sharing this information with someone else who has access to that information? And why do they actually need that access? And can I change my mind without being guilty or punished or pressured or accused of hiding something when I'm definitely not? And that last one is super important because access freely given isn't the same as access by somebody who believes they're entitled to access to you and your information, if that makes sense. The other thing is this concept of visibility not equaling safety. And I think this is something that's really worth remembering around technology and what information we have as parents. If one day I can open up an app and see that little dot that's showing where my child is, that will make me feel better probably. But I need to remember what is that dot actually telling me here? It doesn't necessarily tell me where my child is. It tells me where that device is. It doesn't tell me whether my child is safe, ⁓ what's happening around them, who they're with emotionally, or if somebody's around them pressuring them for some reason. And Danielle and I talked about how location tracking in particular can sometimes create this hypervigilance for parents as well. You can probably imagine it, and maybe you've been there too. Why have they stopped in that location? Why aren't they moving? They're meant to be on the way to the shops or coming home quickly. Why did they take that route instead of the regular one? What's going on there and who are they talking to? So more information doesn't necessarily To more certainty, and it certainly doesn't necessarily equate to more safety as well. And I think that's an important principle, of course, beyond parenting as well. Just because technology gives us the ability to monitor something doesn't mean monitoring is always the best way to create that safety that we're often searching for. Sometimes the better investment is capability and trust. And when we're doing that, we have to think about what we're modeling for our kids and in our own relationships. This is a responsibility I think we really do have as parents. So if we're going to use things like parental controls, for example, for the record, I'm a true believer in parental controls, especially for younger kids when they're used appropriately. Things like location sharing or other safety technology, particularly as kids get older, I think the difference is that we'd need to explain why we're using it. properly to really invest in that conversation and they can really work well for a period of time. Now that doesn't mean that we overexplained and it certainly doesn't mean that kids get to dictate every parenting decision. They absolutely don't. We are, of course, responsible for their safety. And sometimes we're going to set boundaries around things that they don't particularly like. And I think we've all probably been in that conversation and we shouldn't apologize for it. But the explanation Explaining the purpose of these situations teaches them something more. We can say we're using this because of your age and because of what you're doing online right now, or when you're traveling independently, we might use location sharing to see that you've arrived safely. And this is a reason that we're doing it so that we can give you more trust, more leniency, more freedom and flexibility. So this is the value add for a lot of them. And it's important to say that as they get older, And as they demonstrate that they can manage these risks around them, then you know you'll revisit it. As I said, it's not a set and forget situation. In fact, a
wide variety of recommendations from online safety experts to researchers and child development specialists, they all specifically encourage parents who use location sharing apps to have conversations with children about. Why and when their location will be shared and how the technology works, and importantly, who has access to that information as well. And that communicates something very different. People who love you explaining the reasons and the nuance. It tells them that access should have a purpose and that boundaries can change as their capability grows. Now, Danielle and I, of course, talked a lot about capability. Building in our ⁓ in our conversation. And I'm I'm really passionate about this as a parent and as an online safety expert. This is the secret source, right? We need to make sure that kids instinctively start to understand the risks of the physical and digital worlds. And of course, when they're little, we hold their hands when you know we cross the road. Eventually, though, we need to teach them to look both ways before they cross the street. We need to Put fences, fences around pools, but ultimately we have to teach them to swim. And digital parenting really requires that same level of progression. The goal is never to raise an 18-year-old who's never encountered a digital risk because we've successfully controlled and blocked every interaction that they've ever had. It is to raise an 18-year-old who has enough judgment and experience to navigate the risks when we're not there. So Someone contacts them that they don't know. What do they do? A group chat starts piling onto another child. Do they know how to safely intervene in that particular situation? ⁓ you know, someone will ask them for an intimate image or something that they don't want to send. Can they say no? Can they articulate why? And importantly, as that progresses, a future boyfriend or girlfriend asks for their password and attaches that as a measure of trust and commitment to their relationship. Do they understand that they don't owe anyone their passwords? And can they articulate that in a way that helps the other person understand what that boundary is and make sure that it's respected? You know, do they know what to do in these situations? These are the capabilities that we want to make sure that we are teaching our kids. And ultimately those capabilities are so much more valuable than any setting or any app that we can turn on to their phones. So as parents, I think we need to be careful around those conversations about children's technology. We also need to be careful that they don't become entirely focused around risk as well. We need to recognize the great benefits of technology and access to devices for kids at the appropriate age and stage. You know, their connection to their friends, create to ⁓ engage in creative outlets to be entertained, to learn, to belong. ⁓ they're genuinely good things that happen there too. So we've got to have that balanced approach, that light and shade approach I talk about a lot when I do my education sessions, particularly in schools as well. So make sure that you understand that the message to your kids isn't that the, you know, internet is going to harm you all the time, but that it can be dangerous. And I'm here to help protect you. There's a lot that we can do with it. But there's things that you need to understand before I hand you more access to the power of these environments can be a really good way to start those conversations. And it feels like a bit of a d a different starting point as well when we have these sorts of empowered chats with our kids. So for me, one of the most important conversations, and going back to the ethos of this first phone discussion, is really simple. We need our kids to feel that they can come to us if something goes wrong. And we need to make sure that we clearly articulate that to them before that crisis or that concern or that problematic moment hits. So we want them to understand that even if they've broken a rule, even if they clicked on something that they shouldn't have, even if they sense something that they immediately regretted or they feel embarrassed or ashamed of ⁓ what we're going to to think, that we'll always deal with that. sort of stuff later. First, the most important thing is that you've told me, you acknowledged that it was a difficult thing to do and you thank them for it. And then that we can stand shoulder to shoulder with them to solve a situation that they might be concerned about. Because ultimately, you know, the most powerful safety system for kids are the parents, are the first and most influential role models that they have and the people that we need them to come to when something is going wrong. We can't be in situations where kids make a mistake and they sort of say to themselves, I can't tell mum because she'll kill me. We want to make sure that we flip that on its head to have them thinking like this has gone wrong. I need help, but I know exactly where I'm gonna go to actually get that help that's gonna be helpful in the way that I consider a a good solution to look like. So importantly, understanding that technology, parental controls, all of those amazing things, they can be helpful. But it can't replace the relationship that you have with your child. Now, none of this should also be static. The setting and boundaries, as I mentioned, of a 10-year-old can't automatically be the settings that we use for a 16-year-old or a 17-year-old. So we have to make sure that as capability increases, we do reduce the restrictions and increase the freedoms ⁓ as expected. Yes, some mistakes will happen, but that Independence also requires practice and it requires recovering from mistakes. Some strategies. And I've talked a lot about the things I guess that we need to consider before we hand over that device. So if you're approaching this stage two, there are five key things that I think are worth
discussing before that first phone arrives. The first is that privacy is not necessarily secrecy. So having boundaries doesn't automatically mean that you're hiding something. We need understand that about ourselves and obviously respect that in other people. The second really important one is that access does not equal love. A friend or a future partner doesn't automatically need your password, your location, or an immediate response simply because they say that they care about you. Really, really important one. Now the third one: consent is digital too. So you can say No to sharing a photograph. You can stop sharing your location. You can remove someone's access or restrict it back to something that you're more comfortable with. You can change your mind. And when somebody else sets a boundary with you, it's also important that we respect that in the other way as well. Now, the fourth one is that connection doesn't automatically mean constant availability. You don't have to answer every message immediately. In fact, it's really good practice not to do that, especially as you start to get older. But you don't also need to be visible to everybody all the time to maintain friendships that are meaningful. And finally, the last one I think is very, very important, and that is that safety always comes before punishment. All right, as parents, sometimes we can react quickly, we can make assumptions, but if something goes wrong, we need our kids to come to us so that we can deal with whatever rule has been broken after we know that they're safe. So I don't think in the end we need to choose between technology and trust or between keeping our kids safe and letting them participate in the world that their friends inhabit. We can use technology, we can set boundaries. There are, of course, very real risks online and pretending otherwise isn't responsible parenting. But we also need to have the positive conversations that go with technology. Teach them why boundaries exist. Teach them that privacy and secrecy aren't the same thing. Teach them what healthy digital relationships look like, what consent applies to. ⁓ when it comes to their bodies, but also their locations, their passwords, their images, their devices, and of course their data. And then gradually give them the opportunities to practice good judgment while we're still close enough to help them when things actually do go wrong. Because eventually my kids will have phones and your kids will have phones. They'll go places without both of us. They'll have friendships and relationships that we can't control and conversations we will never see. And That's as it should be. Our job isn't to make sure that they never experience risk because I'm always watching. It's to help them build the skills to navigate the world when we're not. Technology can be an incredibly useful part of protecting our kids, but ultimately the best safety tool we can give them is their own capability while waiting in the wings when they need us most. That's it for today's episode, my friends. If you enjoyed this episode, please like it, please share it, and please subscribe. ⁓ stay tuned as well for that incredible conversation that I had with the CEO of Enlightened Education, Danielle Miller. ⁓ such a really, such an important conversation for raising girls, for raising boys. We talk all about consent and confidence and online culture and healthy relationships and how to navigate a world that Many of us simply just didn't have to at their age. So you won't want to miss that one. I'll see you next time. That's it for today's episode of the First Movers podcast. If this hit home for you or you think someone else needs to hear it, share it and subscribe. That's genuinely how this show grows and how these conversations reach the people who need the most. Keep an eye on yasminlondon.com or follow me on LinkedIn and Instagram, and I'll drop the links in the show notes. Until next time, be first, be brave, and be a first mover.