Full Transcript for Episode 9: CIA Officer Michele Rigby Assad: Undercover, Underestimated & Unafraid

completely relate to like hours and hours of of preparation for five minutes of excitement and it in the end it's still the government. Michele: It is. We always say if you if you don't write it, it never happened. especially in the agency Heather: Absolutely. Michele: because you're generally Mary: Yeah. Michele: doing operations on your own. So outside of yourself, no one knows until you write it down and you document it for the record. So like you said, it's not sexy at all, but the lead up to your operation could take you days, weeks or months of planning. And then Heather: So Michele: after you finish, maybe you had a one or two hour meeting, i if it's a longer meeting, you might spend another Two weeks writing up all your reports from it. So again, not Heather: Right. Michele: as sexy as people think it is, but it's deeply important. Heather: Absolutely. Absolutely. something else I thought was really interesting that you write about is working alongside your husband. was that more comforting or stressful? How did you find that experience? Michele: Far, far more comforting than Because we were in such dangerous places. And I honestly, I'm not like the badass woman who could do that all on my own. I mean, there are women like that, they're out there, that's not me. we were really like on the edge of the earth. We were in places where i I could easily get kidnapped if I was alone to, and because I have a husband who is originally from the Middle East, that helped a great deal. So it provided Heather: Interesting. Michele: me both like a security protection, cultural protection, and it helped both of us operate easier. So I'm really, really grateful for that. Heather: That's great. And this is probably very personal and if you don't want to answer it, like I said, we'll just move along and edit it out. But I'm curious and I just in doing our line of work, I realize that fewer and fewer women have children. And I don't think you guys have kids. I could be wrong, but yeah. Michele: No. And and not by choice. I mean that's people always think, you're you're so committed to the government that you you gave up having children and that definitely was not the case. We wanted children. We're very Heather: Mm-hmm. Michele: cognizant too that if I had gotten pregnant in the field, I would have had because we were in such dicey places, I would have had to have left because they were unaccompanied towards Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Michele: most of what we did. and so it it never happened for us. It wasn't a choice, it just was a you know. So here we are. I mean, we're definitely more free in that regard because when you have children, you can't be working in Baghdad in the middle of a war zone. Heather: Sure. So Michele: so you know, there's obviously pros and cons, and there are a lot of mi women who made it work, and I was very impressed by them because it's not Heather: Yeah. Michele: easy, as you know. Heather: yes. my husband and I don't have children and

that that actually was by choice. But it's interesting how you pointed out that it wasn't your choice because you were so dedicated to the government. I just I've always known I didn't want children. So for us it was a choice that worked out well that I had a job that, you know, required a ton of time. Clare has stepkids and Mary actually has a daughter, so we're all kind of a across the spectrum here. So but that's interesting. I thank you for answering that. I appreciate it. Michele: Show her. Mary: Can I can I ask a quick follow up if you don't mind right here? and you don't have to answer, but I'm s I'm super curious. So did you meet your husband on the job? Michele: No, so that's another interesting thing. I actually met Joseph when I was still in high school in Central Florida. So Joseph is a Christian from Egypt who, when he applied to go to university, was k was denied an education because of his faith and his family's Christian ministry. So Joseph's dad was a pastor and they ran the largest Christian orphanage in Egypt. And so he was gifted like a miraculous Gift from God, a full tuition scholarship to come to a college in Florida. And it changed the course of his whole life. And so I met him when that church sponsored him and brought him to the United States. I was still in, I was still in my senior year in high school when we met. So we were married like six years Heather: Mm-hmm. Michele: before we went into the agency. Yeah. Right. Mary: But that worked out. I mean you guys were able to get hired together and placed together. I mean that's that's gotta be Heather: That's amazing. Mary: rare. Is that common? I don't know. I'm just guessing. Michele: It is it's very rare. There were a lot of marriage you know, there weren't there were a few marriages in the agency, but it was generally this is how it was before, it might be different now. The man would get hired to be an undercover officer and then he'd get his wife hired to be like a secretary. So it was rare to get two hired into the clandestine service, but also Joseph and I had this skill set that at 9-11 was very rare, as you all know. Now it's kind of become like kind of popular to study the Middle East, but back then it was very so it wasn't like one was a China expert and the other was Middle East. We were both Arab world experts, and then the government could send us wherever no one else wanted to go. So that's generally why we had such a challenging career. Yeah. Heather: And I like how you write about Mary: Interesting. Heather: the government kinda getting a two for one that they could, you know, only pay for one one home, one move, you know, everywhere they sent you. You were you are a bargain. Mary: Yeah. It's a bogo. It was a bogo. Michele: Indeed. Heather: Yeah. Mm. But only only in the government does that happen. I yeah. It's nobody I mean It worked out well for you guys because you had that support system and everything. But my Michele: Yeah. Heather: husband and I joke, we've for a short amount of time worked for the same agency and most most places would say, you guys are a couple, we're gonna like send you to different units, different squads. Well not not I and S. They teamed us up and it's they you share a car. You guys live in the same neighborhood or you're living together and you're a a couple, yeah, we're gonna make you partners. We can save money on a car, it's just gonna make life easier for everybody. But for us it was like, yeah, I I d remember that this yep, I was there. I remember. Yeah, there's nothing new to talk about 'cause we were there the entire time. Michele: Ha ha. Heather: So that's that's amazing. Michele: Yeah. Yeah. Heather: do you have like a favorite CIA story, like some the the one that you pull out when you're when you're entertaining people? Michele: Yeah. Yeah, but and it's in my book and it's everyone's favorite story. so I'll I'll try to tell it very quickly, but we it was our first my first overseas assignment. Joseph we were in different training classes, so he had a short one before we got started. And this was a two-year, two-year tour, which is a regular tour. it should have been a one-year tour because it was right on the edge of being a war zone and but it wasn't declared as such. so it was a really sketchy place, one of the kidnapping and carjacking capitals of the world. It was like a weapons bazaar to the Middle East. So we had been there for like a whole year and I had seen multiple car accidents where This population spent half the day high, getting high, and so they were pretty bored, and a lot of a lot of them didn't have jobs. So between getting high and not having a job, there wasn't much going on. So if there was a car accident, it was incredibly exciting, and they would throng hundreds and hundreds of people around this car accident. And so we learned very quickly, and we were told if you're in a car accident, you try to get out of there as quickly as possible because bad things. Can happen. Heather: Sure. Michele: So I was on my way to work. Joseph was traveling for an operation external to the country, so I was by myself. And I was stopped at a stoplight, and I was against the curb. There was a car behind me and a car beside me. And a man was crossing the street in front of me, and he looked up and saw my face through the windshield. It was too much for him. This was a country in which women were completely covered and in Arabic they say munakaba, so mostly women's eyes would show and that Heather: Right. Michele: was it. so I wasn't doing anything wrong, it wasn't illegal, but it would be very hard to drive a car with your whole head like covered. So I would I didn't do Heather: Absolutely. Michele: that. But anyway, my f my my face was too much for him. So he started carrying out a s a sexual, self-fulfilling sexual act in the middle of the road. In front of my car. Now I had been all over the Middle East. I'd been so many places and I I've never

ever seen anything like this. I Heather: my gosh. Michele: I was used to being sexually assaulted on the streets of Cairo. I was used to all that stuff, but this was like new to me. And I was like, Heather: Holy cow. Michele: and I was like in broad daylight, like in the middle of the street, and I'm turning red and I'm sweating and I'm embarrassed and I'm like, can't believe this is happening. And then I realized that men are starting. Starting to come out because now for them it's like a car accident because there's something really interesting in this car that we all must see. So I Heather: Sure. Right. Michele: my car is surrounded, or big not yet. People are coming, and my brain, the training kicks in that you can't be on the X. I'm sure you all went through the training, you've got to get off the X so you don't get killed. so I suddenly realize I'm on the X, I'm a target. And if these men realize I'm a single Western woman by Myself, who's not armed, I'm I could get kidnapped, carjacked, taken. And at that time, Al Qaeda was killing the people they were taking and putting it on a video. So it was very clear, like my husband had told you can never get taken. So I realized as they're starting to surround my car that I'm in a situation that if I don't act like right now, I might not get out of it, and this will be the end. So I did what I was taught in training. My CIA training kicked in. I hit him with my car Heather: Yeah. Michele: and he fell and then he got back up again, he was totally shocked and resumed the activity and I had to hit him again with the car. Mary: Seriously? Michele: And I you know. Heather: He didn't think Mary: my god. Heather: he didn't think you were really serious about hitting him with the car. Michele: Did not know me very well. So I had to hit him a second time and I'm yelling in English and Arabic through the car He can't hear me, but I'm like, if you don't get out of the way, I will run you over. Of course I don't want to run him over, but if I have to, if it's between me and my head getting cut off, I will run you over. Heather: Absolutely. Michele: and so that he he realized the second time I hit him how very serious I was. He finally got up, moved out of the way. And I did not stop for one more stop sign or stop light on the way to work. And I tell you that I probably shook for like an hour and a half after that. I just couldn't stop shaking. Heather: is absolutely insane. I I'm gonna Clare, Mary: It's terrifying. Clare: Okay, so my chin is on the ground. I cannot believe this Heather: All of ours. Clare: happened to you. I can't even believe you can talk about it with some laughter right now. I'm shaking. And I can't believe that you clicked into like that's what they train you to do, to click back into training. And you thought right away. And I I first of all I can't believe that happened. But the second thing I found it very unique that you you literally said the phrase, I became used to being sexually assaulted. Like Michele: I know. Clare: that's so unusual for us here. in the United States to like have that said and allowed, you Heather: Yeah. Clare: know? And I'm so sorry that that happened to you. And Michele: It was being a student, so I spent a whole semester in Cairo studying. and Cairo is a very busy place. There's you know, I don't know at this point how many if there were twenty million in Cairo at that time. And I'm like twenty years old. I can't tell you how much I was rubbed, pinched, grabbed, held Heather: My gosh. Michele: Everywhere he went all the time unless Joseph was right next to me. it was exhausting, honestly. After three and a half months of that, I was just like, I c I can't do this anymore, and I it was time to go home. But I just I don't think people realize how exhausting it is to constantly your body is not your own. Yeah. Clare: Mm, that's that's truly unbelievable to me. And Michele: And I learned a lot though. Like I l I learned that what do they think of Western women? What do they think of Christians? What do they think of why what makes them assume that I want them to touch me? What makes them think they can touch me? It taught Clare: Exactly. Michele: me so much about culture and ideology. Those were the things that I carried with me into the CIA that really made a difference when Heather: Mm. Michele: I was dealing with terrorist and insurgent sources or difficult people. Like I learned on the mean streets of Cairo, like how to deal with that. Yeah. Heather: Great that you had a little bit of experience Mary: Mm-hmm. Heather: w with that before you you know got assigned there while you were with the CIA. That's that's amazing. yeah, I'm st I think we're all still stunned, and I've heard you tell that story a couple times now, just in preparing for this. So it's still an incredibly shocking story. And so impressed that you just actually hit him like that with it, like just get out of the way. Why are you still here? Michele: And you know thinking about it, I think it's so interesting because when you've been trained and trained and trained and you've been in the car and you've been told these things, you don't you don't know how you're gonna react until you're in that moment. And I'm just so grateful that they gave us that training because my brain, there wasn't even any kind of like, should I figure out what to do? It's like I just knew what to do. Thank God. Heather: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mary: Well, it sounds like he knew the al alternative if they got you. Good grief. How scary to live like that. Goodness. Michele: We we were very clear on that, yeah. Heather: That's crazy. Michele: Remember Oprah used to say, Don't ever get taken to the second location? I mean that was like bar mantra, you can never get taken. Mary: Well, we're glad you're here to tell us these stories, that's for sure. Heather: Absolutely. Michele: Easter. Heather: Mary, I'm gonna hand it off to you. Mary: So, let's talk about some of the

work you did dealing with the assets. I I don't know what else to call Michele: Yeah. Mary: you know, the human side of intelligence. So what about like reading people? Like, you know, we all hear about these things and is it is it something that you're just naturally good at? Are you trained on it? Like what how explain to us about your experience with reading people? 'Cause I feel like that must have been extremely important in what you were trying to do. Michele: Yeah, it's so interesting because I was in the agency for probably four years. Or three, maybe three years before I had some experiences. I am allowed, like I had we had five tours. I'm allowed to talk about Baghdad. So, and thankfully that there were so many things, experiences I had in Baghdad, which have made it into the books. it wasn't until I got to Baghdad that I realized that I was reading body language and that I had a facility for it. So I was asking our asset, that's the word we use as well, asking our asset questions, and he was acting quite strangely. And he was behaving like he didn't want to answer my questions, or he was avoiding it. The body language was one of avoidance, like turning in his chair, you know, pushing back in his chair. And I I we had not really been taught that, but once I realized I had a facility for that, I went and I obtained additional training in the agency to specifically read body language. And I it's so much fun. I love it so much. Clare: Yeah, for all of you that are kinda hearing a little hesitation with me, I have some audio issues, so we're muting in between, but I chime in here and Heather's kind enough to mute me. But so I'm obsessed with body language. I never got in the training that you had, but I'm obsessed with Court TV and I will go back Heather: Mm-hmm. Clare: and watch witnesses without the volume on and it's so it's amazing what you can see if you're not thinking about or you're not processing what they're saying. It really Heather: Interesting. Clare: is. So So if you all are out there and you look at interview statements or interview camera interviews, watch it without the voice or the sound and that helps. And you were dealing with you were dealing with such unbelievable situations over there. I mean you had to you had to examine everything. Michele: I realized that That all my colleagues who had not been to the Middle East who didn't understand the culture, they were applying their American culture to their assessment. So they just went into the room believing that everyone was gonna tell them the truth. Well, I had the opposite, because I'd been in the Middle East and I understood how things worked. And so I realized, like, okay, you everyone's lying to me until I can prove otherwise. So that was my assumption. It turned out to be a very good one. Very helpful. Mary: Yeah. Heather: Yeah, I can imagine that's that's Clare: Yeah. Heather: good it's a good level set to start from. Everybody's lying. Mary: Well I'm I'm Michele:

And you know, I think women are very women are very gifted at reading body language, even if we haven't been trained because this is what we do. my husband's very good at it. There are some men, but just as women, we're t you know, we're kind of natural nurturers and that's part of how we're created. So I think we we have an ability to do that, and if you can get training on top of that, man, you're like a you're like you know crazy good at it. Heather: interesting. I'd never heard anybody say that women were particularly good at that, but it makes sense. I th I think it really makes sense 'cause we're always we're always looking for those cues, making sure that everybody's taken care of, looking around, seeing what other people need, what they expect, what they want. I think that's interesting. Mary: all right, so going from that, let's talk about how you would build trust with these people. obviously there's you know, a skill to getting people to trust you and I'm sure there's mistakes to make while trying to build trust. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Michele: Yeah, so I think what fascinated me the most was that if I called someone out on something that wasn't right, or if I challenged something in the meeting, in American culture, that would mean things went awry. that that would hurt your rapport. In the Middle East, it turns out that's not that's not how things are. If you stand up for yourself or you call someone out, you're actually respected more. And that was something as a southern, you know, gal that I had to get past and that was really hard for me. So what I realized very quickly, if you want to be tr if you want to establish some modicum of trust, especially as a younger female, young looking female, dealing with these guys who think you're an idiot, you're immoral, you shouldn't even leave the house. How the heck are you even in this complicated world of terrorism and I think ethnic strife and all that I had to learn with the body language how to walk in the room with confidence, even if I was shaking in my shoes. I had to learn how to ask questions with confidence. I had to learn how to call them out when appropriate. I had to learn how to display my intelligence, which is again in the South, you're not supposed to do that. That's you're supposed to be more you're supposed to kind of hold that back. DC, it's a little bit different. DC culture is like everybody's like power. Play right, but I realized that you know a power play was to show my to display my knowledge, and so I would say things on purpose in meetings with these sources, and they would go, Bikama Arabi? You speak Arabic? Meshmoom. No, I can't believe it. And then how do you know this? And I would explain to them that I've been traveling to the Middle East, I've been studying, and so by talking about my my knowledge, I was they were forced to. To respect me. And to be fair, most Americans had no knowledge of the Middle East. And so all of these people got away with all kinds of things working with the US government. And then finally they meet someone, say, like my husband or myself, who actually know what's going on. It's a shock to them, but then they actually deal more honestly with you because you'll call them out if you if they don't. Mary: Well, and I would think just the knowledge and knowing the language, you're out the gate building rapport, right? You know, 'cause we Michele: Yes, big time. Mary: you know, as three special agents, the three us girls, it's all about rapport in these interviews with bad guys, right? And, you know, in your situation, Michele: Yes. Mary: I think that would be your leg up right from the beginning. And like you said, a little bit of shock maybe gets a little off guard. you know, so Michele: Yes. yeah, because they're thinking what they're thinking is pretty girl, I get to flirt. That's that's it, every single one. Pretty girl, flirt time. This will be fun. And so what you kidding me? Mary: Even in a government interview, they think that way? Michele: Yes. That's what they leave. Heather: Wow. Michele: That's exactly they just lose themselves because they we think about it, they're coming from an ideology which teaches them I shouldn't even be in the room with a woman who's not covered. Like that's haram. That's that's bad. That's immoral. So I get to be I can see her face, I can see her body when she walks I mean, look at her, she's not covered. It's just like exciting. Super creep. Mary: Wow. That must have been a little creepy though for you, knowing you were getting checked out everywhere you went. Ugh. Michele: Super creep all the time. Yes. Mary: Ugh. So on that note about being a a woman in intelligence, so how how would you say it was to your advantage? Maybe you already kind of started going down that road a little bit. Michele: So I think when you can shock someone, you you have the advantage. And so I actually kinda got a high off it. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm a stupid broad, here we go. Mary: Here we go. Michele: And I I really got a high out of showing like establishing respect and getting them to, okay, wow, she's really different. I can work with her, I want to work with her. So now you have the the advantage of being, okay, let's say in their minds a pretty girl that they respect. So now they really want to impress you. Okay, if that's what we're dealing with, like you can't change the dynamic. That's what's there. So you just have to use it to your advantage. You know, you you are not you are making sure they're not flirting like when they shake your hand, they'd be trying to flirt with you and have to pull your hand out of their grip. I mean I they try to hold on to my hand and caress me like they would try to stand Heather: Yeah. Michele: too close to me and I'd have to keep backing up. But at the you know so that that dynamic, their hopes for something more never changed. But the advantage I had was the fact that they were now trying to

impress me and they did want me to walk back through the door so they wanted to give me the intel. Heather: Hm. Michele: So great. Mary: Wow. Heather: Yeah. I'm still amazed, Mary: All right. Heather: given such a religious culture, for lack of a a better word, such a strict culture, how how much they would flirt, how much that you know, somebody who's brazen enough to stand on in the middle of the street and and and masturbate. How how is this I it it blows my mind. I did not realize that about Middle Eastern Michele: Well you're a you're a you're a throatway. You're Heather: Cultures. Michele: a immoral American Western woman. You you are not an object of respect. So we'd never treat you like we would treat women in our country. Heather: that's fascinating. Thanks for yeah, that it yeah. I guess that finally kinda hit home with me. Like that's why they think it's okay, because you're not important. Yeah. Holy cow. Yeah, less Michele: Yeah. In their world view you yeah. Mary: Less than, yeah. Heather: than. My gosh. Michele: And I tell people going into you know, everybody thinks yeah so cool and like your job was so interesting and it was, but I I think unless you're bringing into that job some deep understanding of a foreign culture like the Middle East or China or Russia or whatever's in the headlines, don't bother. Like you can't do that job well unless you are an expert in something that our government it really needs. 'Cause unless you understand and the culture, the ideology, the framework, all of that, you you can't do a good job at you can't do it. I mean you can do it, but you're gonna be extremely mediocre to poor at it. Heather: Sure. Fascinating. Mary: Yeah. I I mean a and to be where you were, you know, China and Russia, they're scary too, but they're not chopping off heads. Right? Like Michele: Ha ha. Mary: you were doing some some pretty scary scary areas over there. wow. Michele: I'm still amazed sometimes. I think back and like, what? What? And sometimes I think I just stayed because I didn't want to be the person who gave up. Yeah. Sure I'm tough. I better be. Clare: Thanks. Heather: Probab probably a pretty good time to transition over to Claire's topic, Clare: Michelle, everything you've talked about, I I already have a little bit of the rumbling bellies. Like I'm nervous for you and you're out of this. I I can't explain how impressed I am by you and all that you did for our country. And now I'm just super grateful and you really amaze me. Like you really do. So we're talking about rapport, building trust. you had to go outside yourself and logical thinking to the illogical, right? because of who you are. But what happens when you decide to leave that world? you retired earlier than eligibility, I believe. what happened there if if you choose to tell us? Michele: So after ten years in the agency, which was five overseas tours for me and six for Joseph, in really difficult places, we were extremely burnt out. And when you think about the idea that you're on the you're over here in the Middle East and you're missing holidays and birthdays and the birth of children and anniversaries, you miss ten years of life. And at the same time, Joseph's father passed away and we needed to be sure we were able to care for his mother in Egypt and we just knew it just felt like this this is the time. So a regular retirement probably would have happened ten years after that, so 20 years. So we did like half of a regular career, I guess you could say, in the agency. Clare: so I would say ten years was more like thirty to you all, right? You know? So Michele: Yeah. It felt like for me. Clare: it doesn't matter. Exactly. So it doesn't matter. You guys gave a lot Michele: Felt like three. Clare: of life and dedication to your country. Heather: My gosh. Clare: So I I applaud you for that. I also applaud you because a lot of us don't know when it's time and we try to I don't know, we try to say that we're not ready when our bodies are telling us they are, our bodies and our mind are telling us they are. And you you were looking out for your family and your, priorities. And we all have to find those priorities in life, you know, with such crazy fields like we're in. So, I applaud you for knowing when. And, you know, you guys, like I said, ten years is probably like thirty to y'all. So Was leaving harder than joining, Michelle? Michele: I think they were both equally hard for different reasons. Leaving is so difficult in the agency because you have no resume and you can't tell people what you've done for ten years and it's the Heather: Mm. Michele: it's your whole adult life that you is not spoken for. the the kind of resume that you get to leave with is so vanilla that nobody would hire you for anything after that. you don't have like we have we weren't big on social media if we had any social media, so while the world was you know, creating connections with each other, we were avoiding all of that. So you're really behind the game in every single way. And so we were really worried about whether we'd be able to create a new life for ourselves outside of this strange bubble of intelligence and counter-terrorism that we've lived. It was incredibly I have to say brave now because it was brave. I was terrified. I didn't know if it would work out and on the other end of that I can tell you, thank God It worked out and it worked out extremely well. And so I guess I'm now in the position where I try to use my life as a demonstration to be courageous, to do the things that scare you because somehow they're gonna benefit you in the long run. And really trying to help people get off the X of their own lives. I think sometimes we forget we only have one life. Like you gotta make it worth it. You know, be adventurous, do hard things, get out there, like push push the boundaries of what you think you're possible. Like, so sometimes it's just our own internal language that tells us, you're not good

enough, you don't have what it takes. Well, I learned in the agency that I'm a spectacular intelligence officer. Like, I didn't know that as a you know 24-year-old going in. I had to learn the hard way, and I had to learn through struggle and difficulties that I was very gifted, and I didn't know. that so that's definitely my spiel now with with young people with women with everyone Clare: I'm so proud that you can call yourself courageous and I love that. Get off the X of your own life. I love that. And I just used that phrase in conversation last night and I was being serious with a member of my family that I was saying you only have one life to live. Like let's make this our best and you know there's no second chances in this. so I applaud you for that as well. Let me ask you another good one. what advice would you give to someone who knows that it's time to leave but feels afraid to make the leap? 'Cause we have a lot of our talks about retirement Michele: well first of all, for those of you who are faith-based, I say b bathe everything in prayer, because I quite honestly don't know how I would do everything without some wisdom of something larger and bigger than me. Everything is a risk, right? in leaving the security of a government job feels like an enormous risk, and it is. but I feel like when you've lived these lives that we've lived, you have so much value to add to the community. we've we've learned We've learned how to push through our fear, we've learned how to deal with difficult people, we've learned how to negotiate, we've learned diplomacy. And so if you can find a way to solve other people's problems, that's the key, I think. The key question to ask yourself when you're thinking of pushing out of that Titanic boat of the government. heather: And apparently that is where technology decided that we needed to get off the X. We had some technical issues towards the end of our conversation with Michele, and eventually the internet won. Because nothing says this is where it gets real, quite like your recording falling apart in the middle of a great interview. But the good news, we weren't finished talking. We got back together with Michele to continue the conversation, and you'll hear the rest of it in episode 10. we talk about her books Breaking Cover. And get off the X, how she built an entirely new career after leaving the CIA, and what she's learned about finding purpose, taking risks, and figuring out what comes next when your government career is over. And trust us, there's a lot more to the conversation. You can learn more about Michele, her books, speaking, and everything she's doing now at MicheleRigbyAssad.com Make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen or watch so you don't miss part two of this conversation. And until then this is FedChicks, where apparently even the technology likes to remind us that this is where it gets real. Heather: And that wraps up another episode of Fed Chicks. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a minute to like, subscribe, share, and leave us a review. It really helps other women in federal law enforcement find the show. Make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel and you're following us on Instagram and Facebook so you don't miss behind-the-scenes moments, episode updates, and a few stories we probably shouldn't tell, but do anyway. Have an idea for an episode, want to share your story, or be a guest? We'd love to hear from you. Email us at FEDChicks@gmail.com or leave a comment wherever you're listening. And just a quick reminder: this podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed here are our own and do not represent any agency or the federal government. Nothing we share should be considered financial, career, or retirement advice. Until next time, this is FedChicks and this is where it gets real.