Full Transcript for Clarice Starling Inspired Her FBI Career. The FBI Inspired Her Reinvention: Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles

that I thought might be fed chicks worthy for a sit-down. eggnog from Christmas and ClaRE: Ha ha ha Heather: Ooh. Hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and this sangria that I'm trying. Yes, do you see what it's in? It yes, yes. So I do Mary: Check the date on that. ClaRE: in the movie I love that in the Christmas vacation Yes Heather: Nice. Look at that. That. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I do want to give you the heads up though that if I go for more than one glu one. I'll try to turn your podcast into some kind of beatbox session and then sing Dolly Parton's Jolene. So one glass, yeah. One glass is my limit for you guys, I promise. ClaRE: Okay. Yes. Promise. Heather: Do you promise? Mary: Do it. Please do it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Dolly gives me all the feels, Heather: Perfect. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and so does alcohol. So we're good. I know, right? Yeah, because whiskey, yeah. ClaRE: We're just glad you didn't choose the chunky eggnog. Heather: Yeah, I don't that would not have been a good idea. Good choice. ClaRE: For those listeners that can't see, Shayne is sipping out of the infamous cocktail glass that Christmas Vacation made special. It's the moose head, right? With the ears is the handles. Yeah. My God. It's epic. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. Yes. Clark Cr Clark Griswold. Yes. Mary: Kinda i I I kinda wanna go up and get mine right now so we can both have one, 'cause I have one too, girl. Heather: That's awesome. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Y yes, definitely. That Heather: You have one of those? My gosh Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: would be great. Heather: That's awesome. ClaRE: that's awesome. What do you got going on, Mar? Mary: today it's a it's a cab Sauv ClaRE: Mm, very sophisticated. Mm-hmm. Do you have a cigar and an ashtray next to you? Okay. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So sophisticated. Mary: little distinguished today. No, I should. The smoker's Heather: Mm. Mm, very good. Mary: jacket. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Ooh. ClaRE: Okay, Hugh. Yes. Heather, what do you got going on? Heather: Or a robe. Mary: Ha ha. Heather: Little vodka soda so I didn't have to open a whole bottle. Just a little. ClaRE: Just a little. Good, good. All these are good choices instead of chunky eggnog. So I have my Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. Heather: What do you have? ClaRE: Prosecco that came out of my split. My husband is accustomed now to getting me the small bottles because one bottle would take me down and I probably wouldn't finish in my fed Heather: Ha ClaRE: chicks glass, of course, that Heather hooked us up with. So, okay, Shayne, now that everyone understands our level of sophistication and what they're Heather: Ha Mary: Yeah. ClaRE: dealing with, let's talk. I'm gonna let Heather Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: kick this one off. Heather: well Shayne, I have kind of a little bit of an obsession that we have to get out of the way first. you may know that one of our previous guests was Mary Ann and she's a retired FBI agent and she was actually the woman who

took Jodie Foster. around Quantico and helped Jodie Foster kind of embrace Clarice Starling. And so I've been doing a lot of editing and and that's really been on my mind lately. then we found out that you had a connection to the Silence of the Lambs movie also. so I just love this whole idea that we've had both of you on. Tell us about your connection to that movie. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Sure, and first of all, if I go after her, damn you three, because she was fantastic. ClaRE: Hehehehehe Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I mean, I can only dream and she's done that. So, yeah. So Heather: Mm. ClaRE: Ha ha ha. Mary: Ha ha ha. ClaRE: Ha ha ha! Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: my connection. I was it I just graduated from high school. it was nineteen ninety one when the movie came out, and I went to the theater to see it with my then boyfriend. And during this ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the scene where Clarice is in that storage unit and then she lifts up that handkerchief or whatever it was and those heads were in the bottle. Well he startled and as he was probably putting his arm in, bumped me in the nose and I had a a bloody nose, and just like stuffed like ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha ha. Heather: no. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: a napkin, you know, pop popcorn napkin, whatever, because I did not want to leave ClaRE: Hehehehehe Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and miss anything from that movie. And I saw that movie and I'm like, I w to be Clarice Starling. So that Heather: That's awesome. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: actually yeah that actually started started my desire to join the FBI was like 19 years old and I that's when I got my degree yeah ClaRE: That's amazing. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: in psychology. So I'm like yeah I totally want to be Clarice. Now having said that through Quantico not once did anyone come and get me on a run and say we have something that, you know, a serial murder. Yes so that was a bit disappointing. ClaRE: We need you. Mary: Ha ha ha. Heather: We need you Only Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: But you Mary: Ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: know, but I made it. Heather: What was it what was it that you saw in Clarice that you thought like I I wanna do that, I could do that. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. You know, it's the way that she handled just just adversity and and handled Hannibal Lecter too. And I know it's just a movie, but she was so smart about it. Yeah, ClaRE: So good. Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I mean she was honest when she needed to be honest, but yet she was also manipulative when it suited her. and I thought what a strong character, what a strong, you know, a strong personality. So, you know, it wasn't Hannibal Lecter that fascinated me, even though I love the serial killer and the way his mind worked, but it was just Clarice and how she handled him and herself that drew me to that. I'm like, that's that's for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Heather: great. What do you hope that young women ClaRE: That's amazing. Heather:

see today or just in your career in general that makes them think I could do that or I want to do that? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think now that there's just more female agents, female law enforcement officers out there, and I think that nowadays we're not stereotyped where we have to look one way, or act one way. But certainly for Clarice I liked even way back when because in nineteen seventy two was when we had the first female agent. And you know, there was still a lot of of things they had to still today there are, but things they had to overcome being a female. Heather: Sure. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And one of the scenes in that movie that I hope that others watch this realize is that even back then she stood up for herself. it was the time when, if you if you recall Was at the funeral, and the supervisor said, Clarice, let's stay out here, you know, and whispered to the cop, hey, we don't want to talk about certain things in front of her. And then later that evening she spoke up and said, You know, don't do that. That that matters. People see how you treat me. And Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I wish my younger self would have carried that on, because you know, when you're in a situation, but I hope now women realize that you know, you have to stick up for yourself. You have to say what bothers you and what matters and how you want to be treated. So I I I hope that they take that away from women today and from that movie especially. gosh. This this is only three minutes in. You wait, it is all Heather: That's great. I love that answer. Yes, very good. you know, like, okay. We're good. We got it all. ClaRE: that's so perfect. Stop being so perfect. Mary: That is good. Definitely. We're done. That was it. We're done. It was perfect. Perfect. Heather: Well, thank you. There's just something Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yep. Heather: wonderfully full circle about talking first with the woman who helped Hollywood portray female agents more authentically, and now with a woman who saw that portrayal and thought, I could do that. So I just love that we've had both Mary: It's awesome. Heather: Mary Ann and you on. I know that you guys were both featured in a a recent book that somebody wrote specifically about Hannibal Lecter, but I I saw the article that you sent us and I just think that that's really amazing for Fed Chicks that we were able to interview both of you this early on. So I think that's really awesome. My last question about Silence of the Lambs, I promise we we also read in that article that you have a tattoo that's can can can we see that? ClaRE: Mm-hmm. I saw it maybe when you lifted it up. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I do. I do. I let's see if you could see it. Can you see it's upside down, but there we go. Yeah. It is the Death Said moth, yes. Yeah. ClaRE: Gorge Gorge. Heather: How cool it's the is Death Death's Head Moth, is that what it's called? Very cool. T ClaRE: Yeah, no doubt. Heather: is there a story behind that?

Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: well, you know, it's in the silence of the lambs where it's about the coming the chrys chrysist, however you say it. Gosh, edit that out if I'm not saying that right. But you know how they Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: just become ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: something in in in a little pod and in themselves and then how they kind of flourished into something else. That's how I viewed it, as the Deathhead Moth. And you know what? It's also on the poster of silence so Heather: sure Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, Mary: Yeah, it's pretty cool. ClaRE: I love it. I love it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I'm ha my husband's happy that I wasn't hooked on like Sons of Anarchy or something like that and I get like this back Heather: Ha ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: tattoo. So thought this was Okay, right. Heather: Perfect, perfect. ClaRE: Mary can tell you a little bit about that, right, Mar? Yes. It's an episode two. Mary: listen, that's a whole nother story in episode two. So Heather: You said something else to us that really stood out. You said, I don't think my career was ever really about investigations. It was about people. Tell us what you mean by that. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. So I I think I love people, first of all. You know, the quirkier the better for me. And I've always been that way. I've always been drawn to just just interesting interesting people and dynamics and and things of that growing up. And I've always been an observer, and a and a clown too. but I've always Heather: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: been ClaRE: Ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: just the observer of people. So with that, with with the observer of people and especially with their behavior, and probably I've been fascinated by behavior more so than conversation, even though obviously what some ClaRE: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Says is important, but I've always been interested in like what didn't they say? what ClaRE: What? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: what were they doing while they were saying it? And why did their demeanor suddenly change? And why am I feeling ClaRE: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: uncomfortable in front of this, you know, this person Heather: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: when they're obviously doing nothing wrong? So and then clinical psychology fed that curiosity. and the FBI gave me, you know, 21 years of people under extraordinary situations. So yeah, I thought, you know, 21 years. investigating crime, but looking back, I think I spent those years really just continuing to study people and being fascinated by them. and now I write about them, right? People made up mostly, but you know, certainly there's always some truth to my character. So yeah. ClaRE: Love that. I love that. Heather: That's great. Great. Mary: So, Shayne, all right, so you spent more than two decades in a career where people often identify identify you immediately by the title FBI

special agent, right? But if someone met you today and had no idea what you had ever done professionally, how would you describe yourself? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Mm. Well, I think during my my career that when people looked at me initially they didn't think FBI agent, even when I told Heather: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: them that I was, they thought, yeah, you're more Avon lady. But but ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha. Mary: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, I I think today I'm I'm Shayne. and admittedly sometimes I'm still trying to figure that out. but I do know with certainty, you know, what I am and and Clare alluded to that early earlier. You know, I'm a wife, mother, grandmother, investigator, student observer. and you know, I'm just I'm working on though now saying that I am a writer because without feeling like I need to provide, you know, supporting documentation that I am a writer, but that's one that I w I aspire to get there one day. I'm still uncomfortable with that. But I I mean all and on beginning to realize that I don't really need a title to explain who I am. I'm just Shayne. So ClaRE: I love that. Yeah, no one needs a title. You are. Perfectly Shayne Seriously. Aww. You're welcome. I know. I just adore you. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Thank you, Clare. Aw giving me all the feels too. Heather: Mm-hmm. Mary: Mm-hmm. ClaRE: so do you think the people who know you best would describe you differently than the people who only knew you as FBI Shayne? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: N no, I don't know. I I don't know how to be any different than who I am, which sometimes serves me well, other times it did not at all. you know, when there's certain situations when I needed to be, you know, that FBI agent. And I'm I'm serious when I need to be serious, but y you know, I I can't really hide my my personality. I mean I do try to hide my crazy, that's for sure. That's part that of me that's Mary: Ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: not for public consumption. But you know, I find that ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the times when I try to be something that I'm not, it just trips me. Up. It makes me uncomfortable and probably others too. And I'm just not my best self. So I think that people who know me best know that what they see is what they get. Yeah. As as an agent, as outside, you know, of work, as just socially, that's just it's all I know who to be. I was never good at pretending and and you know, anyway, which is why I got kicked out of undercover school. ClaRE: Ha ha Heather: Ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: That is a true story. Yeah, you know, I I Heather: We need to hear more about that. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: That that is a tr Mary: Yeah. ClaRE: Yes, tell us. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: yeah, okay. I'm still I'm still upset by this 'cause I made it up until like the very last day. And the very last day is like ClaRE: Ha ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: y you know, courtroom stuff. I got that nailed. I got kicked out. I was

told ClaRE: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I didn't know when to leave dangerous situations. Okay, they're fake dangerous situations, so I felt no you know, and I yeah, ClaRE: Real harm. Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: right? And I took too long to make the pitch. Well I like to talk and get to know people a little bit before I ClaRE: Ha ha Mary: AHHH Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So but you know, I did do some cameos, but yeah, so I just always had a hard time ClaRE: my goodness. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: pretending. So yeah, I hope people ClaRE: You know, like you Heather: Pretty funny. ClaRE: said, I actually think that's a good thing, but right, like sometimes we we can't be ourselves being an agent. You know? And you know what, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. Yeah. ClaRE: it's just like what your previous answer was, you've always been true to yourself and you know what, if that didn't survive under cover school, hows be it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right, right, right. I Heather: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: mean I mean literally if I had to do cocaine, I wouldn't, you know, like duh yeah ClaRE: Yeah, I pass that. That's awesome. Okay, good. Alrighty, so so I think Mary you're next. let's talk about some other things that people usually don't ask. Mary: So when you think about the career moments you're the most proud of, is there one that had very little to do with arrests, seizures or stats and it's much more to do with something else? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, and thank you for that question because I it this is something that I'm most proud of in in my career as an FBI agent. And it was near the latter part of my career. It I retired in twenty twenty three, so this was the summer of twenty twenty two. it it was a time when Baltimore had an increase in violence, go figure. but yes. And it was also Heather: Hmm. Mary: Hm. Yeah. Shocking. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: a time in politically and I won't get into politics obviously, but when there was just a a distaste, for lack of better word, for law enforcement in in general. So what I wanted to do was to put the FBI and law enforcement in a in a better light and to be more approachable. So I pretty much combined my public affairs you know, experience with also being the supervisor of the violent crime task force and I put together this violent crime community initiative and went to nine of the most violent Districts in Baltimore City and sat through their community meetings and said, Hey, here's what's going on. We're going to be in your area, FBI agents and some other Baltimore police, and just walking around. We're gonna have a tent set up with some literature for you. you know, recruitment's going to be there as well as victim services. and so for you know, nine nine days throughout the summer, we went to to different locations and did that and walked around. And of course, in order to do that, I had to let people know like when you see a bunch of law enforcement people coming to your neighborhood, it's not for the surge of an arrest. It's, you know, we want to get Heather: Mm-hmm. Mary: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: to know you, ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: kind of a thing. So we had billboards and the SAC did interviews and you know, some Twitter posts just saying, hey, we're going to be in the northern at this on this date, at this time, come out and see us, kind of a thing. So you know, I Mary: Was that open that was open to the public? Wow. That's really, really wow. Yeah, that's great. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: It was, yeah, i it was. Yeah ClaRE: That's very cool. That's very cool. Heather: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: it was a lot of work and in and I was happy to happy to do it and honestly there were some folks even in the office that were like, you know, this you're c you're crazy. This isn't they're not gonna be receptive. You know, some of the Mary: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: agents weren't receptive. Heather: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: but, you know, I I always keep in mind that not everybody Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you encounter is having the best day of their life. I mean in fact when y they see police or law enforcement, they're usually not having a good time. so it goes to another tattoo that I have. I have a flower and on the stem of the flower have there go I and it's my shorthand for there but the there but for the grace of God go I and Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: for me for me this is something that I live by when interacting with people. I mean circumstances matter luck matters opportunities matter you know we all have different choices to make or different childhoods and that you know maybe there's one person intervening at this moment that's going to help you and I was hoping that that you know that was was going to make a difference if we were out there and somebody would meet someone and, you know, get the help that they need. I mean that doesn't excuse bad behavior, Heather: That's awesome. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: but I wanted the community to know that we were there for them. Mary: Wh so how was the public's perception or how did they respond to this? Did you get Heather: Yeah. Mary: a good turnout and how did you know, did you have some good conversations? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. S we did. We absolutely did. You know, it's sometimes just the city can just be so you guys you know this, so sad. Mary: Very Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: so I think that was eye opening for some of the newer agents too. you know, it kind of Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: made the community more human. We d we did. We it was receptive. You know, there were some others, you know, who were involved in Afario's activities that we would get on I don't know what it was, Facebook or something. The feds are here, you know, like hide your hide your wives, hide your daughters. But yeah, right. but for the most part ClaRE: Yeah. Five

five Mary: All right. Heather: Hm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, it was it it it was they were receptive, yeah. We heard some positive feedback and also we also got some calls too about, you know, things. Hey, you might want to check this out there. I I one ClaRE: that's good. Yeah. Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I remember distinctively was like a h human trafficking, which was a good call to get to yeah, yeah. So it was good. Mary: Sure. ClaRE: Nice. Very Heather: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it's like community ClaRE: cool. Very cool. Heather: policing, which we don't really hear about the the feds doing very much, right? I mean yeah, yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: R at all, right? Yeah. Heather: I like what you said about that that was even impactful for some of the newer agents. you ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Heather: know, it's so ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Heather: so often we do things that we think we're doing them for somebody else and then it turns out to be for us or for, you know, agents in your in your group. So that's pretty cool too. That's nice. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, that was pre ClaRE: That's amazing. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And i it was a volunteer, so volunteer, you know, you can't I can't make people or the SAC couldn't well, he kinda couldn't kinda did a little bit, but you know, the beginning it was like, Come Heather: There you go. ClaRE: GT. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: on guys, just help us out. We just need, you know, twelve people out there just to be a good showing and then, you know, as the summer went on, as time went on, that it was ever you know, we had more volunteers than than, you know, we thought we would be possible. So that was really cool to see. Yeah. I mean they Heather: That's great. That's great. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: gave up their Saturdays, their evenings, and you know how feds don't we don't like to do that stuff. Heather: So, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. ClaRE: That's hard. That's hard. A hundred percent. Heather: so it's awesome. ClaRE: Yeah, that's very cool. Very cool. Heather: so what did working as an FBI agent teach you about human behavior that you wouldn't have ever learned on your own? I and I know you said you w studied psychology. Do you think Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Heather: there are things that you learned as an agent that you wouldn't have learned being a psychologist? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: yeah. I mean there's it's something to read about or learn about in like disorders or coping mechanisms i in a book or a classroom, but to see it firsthand really gave me a better understanding. When I was at Penn State I worked on the it was the Meadows Psychiatric Center and I worked on the dual diagnosis unit. And then at working on my masters at Towson University I worked at Crownsville Hospital Center on the forensics unit. So I and I wrote competency responsibility evaluations there. So I I got to see some really interesting behavior, but what I learned about personalities and behavior, type A behavior, personalities in particular, I learned all of that from law enforcement and from my time in, you know, the private industry. no classroom could have prepared ClaRE: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: me for the here's what happens when you get a shite ton of type A personalities in one room. I mean, there's some sharp elbows. So yeah, yes. Mary: Ha ha whew. ClaRE: Woo Bessie. Mary: Huh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So that is probably really was eye-opening for me. That You know, yeah. Yeah, my okay, okay, okay. Heather: I bet. I bet. That's great. Add that to your vocabulary. Are you good? ClaRE: Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm gonna use shite ton in my future. Yes. Yes. No, don't. this is where it gets real. Mary's Mary's crossed that bridge already, right? Mary's a real trip. Yeah. And her mom was listening, right? It's okay. Mary: I like that. I'm definitely gonna use that. No, don't. It's fine. Heather: We Mary: I think the first F bomb was me, for sure. Yeah. It's a little awkward. Yeah. ClaRE: I feel like this is gonna be a great follow-up to that. was there ever a moment during your career when you thought, I just cannot believe they're letting me do this? Probably every day. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Gee, a lot of yeah, there's a lot of times I was yeah. I mean there like I said, there's there's so many times, but the first that I remember was it was I had worked a few and it was earlier in my career and I'd worked a few fugitive cases and I loved them. So we had one task force officer from Baltimore County and he would go out and you know, do the fugitives. Hey, can you help me? yeah. So and I also did a little bit of fugitive work in in California. It was my first field office. But so I I just kept wanting to tag along and do this fugitive work. And because of that, you know, headquarters looked and saw some of the cases that FBI had and I had most of the cases. So they reached out to me and said, Hey, you know, here's a list of all the coordinators around the field offices for fugitives. You know, Baltimore doesn't have one. I'm like, that's me. I totally made that up to headquarters. Heather: Huh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Totally just like put my name in that list. That's and and then So magically it was so, and there was always times I was like, I'm gonna be figured out. No, not once did anyone from Baltimore was like, Wait, yeah, yeah, of course Shane's the the fugitive coordinator, right? Heather: Sure. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So, like if you say it and put it out in the ether, it is so, right? So that's what I did was one that was like I can't believe they're letting me do this. Heather: Mm. Mary: Right. Talk it into existence. Heather: That's awesome. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: it was absurd. I would say there were also times when I was asked to do things for a case, like there was two times in some. Of my cases, I would call the suspect to turn themselves in, and they did. So there was, yes.

So there no. So, you know, word got out. Of course, I was being teased, like, don't Heather: I know. That doesn't happen often. ClaRE: Epic Epic. Mm. Mary: Amazing. No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: even make an arrest. Just come, you know, that kind of thing. Thank Heather: Ha ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you, boys. But there was a case, public corruption case, ClaRE: What? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: where like, hey, look, we just want you to try this. Just call the suspect. Tell them to come in. We need to talk to them. You know, and and I thought, ClaRE: Well. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you people seriously have overestimates. Estimated me, you Heather: Ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: know, and I still have to some extent ClaRE: Ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the imposter syndrome. So I'm like, how what well anyway, so that was one of the ones that I'm like, geez, I can't believe they're trusting me with this. But you know, you can be competent and still occasionally wonder, like, when everyone's going to discover that there's an administrative error and you're it. But yeah, ClaRE: Hahaha Mary: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: so but yeah, it was Mary: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: there were some times for sure. Heather: That's great. What was the least glamorous part of having one of the most glamorous sounding jobs in America? Yes. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the most glamorous thank you. Thank you, Quantico. And what was the other the FBI five thousand of them out shows, T V shows? I I Heather: Yes. ClaRE: yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think everyone that you talk to is probably gonna say paperwork. So I would say paperwork, waiting, so Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, the surveillance and every bodily function that goes along with doing surveillance. And yeah. Yes. Yes. And Heather: Ha Mary: girl, ain't that the truth? yeah. ClaRE: there's some stories. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, and then there's more waiting, and then there's documenting that you documented it, and then you know, for every exciting FBI moment, there are probably approximately 4,737 hours of paperwork. Nobody's making a Netflix series. Yeah, I think so too. Right. ClaRE: Ha ha ha! Heather: Right, right. Mary: I think that's I think that's across the board with federal agents. Like all like s you know, ClaRE: Percent. Heather: Yeah. Mary: every agency I would have said the same thing about my job. It's so true. I always say that like Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Yeah. I mean you have to, but yeah. Heather: Government in general. Yeah. ClaRE: Yeah. I like the document that you documented it. That's my favorite. If you don't Mary: it's true. Yeah, that's right. Heather: Yes. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. Heather: Well the frustrating frustrating ClaRE: get it the first time, you'll get it the second. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. Heather: part is that the the what took the longest has like the sentence, right? Like the waiting that you wait five Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. Heather: hours and it that that's like an entry. Like I started the surveillance at this time and then four hours Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. ClaRE: Right. Heather: later something happened. Like, Mary: Right. ClaRE: Uh-huh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. Heather: so those four hours gone. Gone, you never get those back. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. ClaRE: Yep, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: no. Nope. Nope. Not at all. Mary: so this is a good one. So what is something Hollywood gets completely wrong about FBI agents? And then is there anything they surprisingly get right? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I I think you all would wa would say the same about about just federal yeah about federal law enforcement anyway is that the obvious obvious one is that agents don't kick in the doors every afternoon, you know? Like much of the job is exactly right. Or back up. I got this, Heather: Mm. ClaRE: Without vests. Mm-hmm. Mary: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know. Heather: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. I mean yes yes. Mary: Like Jack Bauer and his helicopter gets across LA in a commercial break. Yeah. Heather: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I mean, you know, much of the job is talking to people, is listening. And writing and building relationships and some whining, of course, but like getting someone to trust you enough to tell you something that they don't want to tell you. So, I mean, if Hollywood accurately portrayed, you know, most of these investigations, there'd be a lot more scenes of someone sitting at their desk eating some, you know, shitty food, right? But ClaRE: Okay. Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think probably what they got right, and I did write about this before, is, and I I believe it is, the stereotypes. Typical suits, right? I mean, we do there, we Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: do wear those suits. although I fear that ClaRE: Ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: lately it's been lax throughout the years, but hairstyles, definitely. The men still have that Lego hair, you know, like quaft, and you could just set it on, ClaRE: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: take it off. And and I think that the agents who are female, we do tend to wear ponytails all the time. Heather: Ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So I think they get that right for sure. ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha. Heather: That is funny. ClaRE: That's Mary: That's great. ClaRE: amazing. That's epic. I love the quaft. I love the Yes, that's perfect. my gosh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Yeah. Heather: Mm-hmm. Mary: That's a good answer. Heather: Mm. ClaRE: is there a skill you learned in the FBI that you still use all the time in normal life? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: It probably researching things far beyond what's normal curiosity, you know, requires. Like, let me Google that or I know someone, let me ask that question. Like who cares anymore, Shayne? Like so but that ClaRE: Yeah. Who

cares anymore? Heather: Right. Right. Mary: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and probably Carrie to help me in my writing is just still noticing things like a tat someone's tattoo. Is that gang related? Or what does that what does that mean? Or even kind of like a weird tick that someone might have when a word is mentioned or, you know, something doesn't quite sit right a conversation. So and still obviously what people do with their hands. I I think that's probably something that we always still will pay attention to. ClaRE: Always. Always. Forever. Probably when we're ninety we're like, why is his hand in his pocket and why is he wearing a sweatshirt on a ninety degree day? Yeah. Mm-hmm. What is that fault? Right. That's good though. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. Right. Right. Right, right. Right, right. Heather: Right. right. And what is that bulge? Mary: Lem I mean, it's it's you know what? So on that note, th it never leaves us. I was in church a couple of weeks ago and this dude came in with a backpack and I was like Why's he got why he's got a backpack in church? What's going on? So I went and told the security guy. I was like, hey man, Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: That's very true. Good. Mary: third row from the back, middle section, blah blah blah. And then my daughter and I were sitting right across from him and I was like, nah, we're moving. But like it's just it's always in our mind, like, why you bringing a backpack to church? We're always gonna be like that. It's ingrained in us now. Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: Right. Hey. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. And ClaRE: It is. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: that's awesome that you said something too, Mary, 'cause you imagine how many times that we don't and then stuff goes wonky, so that's that's ClaRE: Yeah. Mary: Yeah, they have like, you know, paid Heather: Yeah. Mary: security that's at church and I like, you da da da He's like, yeah like he saw he that dude did not notice him. But they knew about him after I they knew after I told him and then I moved. It wasn't gonna be me that day. Not getting me Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Did my part Yeah. ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha! Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: Ha ha ha! Heather: Yeah. Mary: So we're gonna transition into your mom role. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Okay. Mary: which I'm doing ClaRE: I love this. Mary: these questions because I'm a mom too. So and I know how hard it was to be both. So one of the things you've talked very openly about is being a working mother during an incredibly demanding career. And there were times when cases ran late, pickups were late, events were missed, and then there were also times when being home meant feeling like maybe you should have stayed longer at work. I remember those feelings too. Did it ever feel like whichever place you were, part of your mind was somewhere else? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes, I mean definitely. and Be and being open about that is new for me. years back it seemed like disgusting that kind of stuff meant I wasn't one of the guys or I I I you know wanted to be known as an agent, not a female agent, just an agent who happened to be female. so I never let on really. I mean, you know, I'd be anxious for sure. I mean I probably the first ten years I lived off of my cuticles and fingernails just because I was just like, you know, my my son's gonna be the last. Kid in after school program, and I'm gonna come and pick him up, Mary: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and his little feet are gonna be dangling off the you know this gym stage. And you know, when I'm at work, I'm watching the clock and I know he's waiting for me. you know, and and then there's the things, of course, that that I missed that you know, we all miss things that are important to our family that you know you feel guilty about. I mean, sug night. I missed the first night, I mean the first day of kindergarten for him. I missed lacrosse games, Heather: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: football games, birthdays. but it was like Like, too, during that time it was like a two-directional guilt. The ridiculous thing was that I could feel guilt guilty everywhere. Everywhere I went, I felt ClaRE: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: guilty at work. Mary: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I felt guilty that I wasn't home with my son. At home I could feel guilty because I thought that I should have been with my squad And I was being, you know, judged for not being there, but they probably weren't. But apparently, you know, having said that, I wanted to fail simultaneous simultaneously in motherhood and federal law enforcement. So, you know, I just ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: felt guilt everywhere I went. but yeah, it was it's it was hard for sure. Yeah, I think it I'm hoping that it's easier now. especially for you know, they have paternity leave too now for for agents, which I think is fantastic. ClaRE: Absolutely. Mary: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and I think they're understanding that, you know, yeah, you can be a definitely be a family person and and be an agent or work law enforcement. you just gotta gotta do it and make it work. And I think now people are able to do that better. I hope at least. Yeah, yes. You just say screw it. My kids' feet are not gonna be dangling, that's for sure. Okay. Mm-hmm. ClaRE: that's amazing. Mary: Or in my case, you just retire. Heather: Luckily you were you were eligible. Mary: I mean, well I so I became a mom at forty one. So I did the career and then was at the end and then very we've talked about this in previous episodes and I won't go down a rabbit hole here, but yeah, it was a very hard decision for me. But it was like, Well, if they're gonna make me choose The choice is I have to retire. And ClaRE: There's only one choice, yeah. Mary: I'm grateful that I was eligible to retire at that time, but I I can relate so much to what you're talking about and feeling like a jerk because well I can't

help on that late surveillance. I have to pick up my daughter. And then you're like, why what are they thinking about me? they're you know, she's playing the kid card. And then in the back of my mind I'm like, I listened to the kid card for twenty years of my career because I was the one without kids and now it's me. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right, right. ClaRE: From other people, right. Right. Heather: Right. Mary: And there were times where I felt unsupported in ClaRE: No. Mary: that role and then obviously really bad at the end, which is why I had to retire. But it's hard to do both. I get it. And they're both important. They're so important, both of them are so important to us. ClaRE: It is. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And it it's so unfair too. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I do feel it it is unfair because now there's there's more and you know, there's women and men who don't want children. And a lot of times they get made to feel look, hey you can work Christmas, you don't have you know, you don't have any kids. Well th that's that's bullshit, you know, like ClaRE: Right. Right. Mary: Yeah, it's the way it is though. Still that way. That was me. I was the one that had to do all those details and stuff Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: that that's not fair. It is, and it's still n Yeah, well, that's ClaRE: Right. Mary: 'cause I was the one without kids for many years. It is what it is. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: That's so unfair. Well, you showed Ha! Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Here you go. Look at me now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: Ha Mary: Right. ClaRE: I'm out. I'm doing FED chicks Heather: Ha Mary: Peace out. Peace out, bitches. Here comes Fed chicks. ClaRE: that's funny. I think a lot of working mothers will understand that feeling of believing you're somehow never quite giving enough to either side in both of your cases, Shayne and Mary and a lot of our listeners. But looking back now, are you kinder to yourself about those years than you were while you were living them? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. and that's ClaRE: Okay, good. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: that's been that's probably been recently though, probably the last ten years. as my son got older and I could see that I didn't fuck him up as badly as I thought I was going to. Mary: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So but yeah. Yeah. Mary: Still T B D for me. ClaRE: Hahaha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I mean, you know, now of course I have distance, right? ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, he's older. but I can I can see that though now that childhood isn't defined by whether a mom made every game. I can see how quickly those years went by and I can't get him back, so it's that duel. My son moved out of the house for good six years ago and I remember we were both crying as he's, you know, cleaning his stuff up. It's empty. And I told him I wasn't ready for him to leave. It's too soon. I still need more time

to make up for the things that I messed up, you know, and the time that I missed with him. and he looked at me and he said, You know, you're a wonderful mom. You've always been a wonderful mom. he all he's always felt loved, knew how much I loved him, and that I didn't mess anything up. And I didn't know how much I needed to. hear that. So it's like he needed to tell me that for some reason I always knew that deep down, but to hear him say that that's when I was like, all right, I I got it. Yeah. So yeah. ClaRE: Validation. Mm-hmm. That's amazing. Hmm. Heather: Awesome. Yeah, that's great. ClaRE: That's the best gift. That's the gift that keeps on giving. Show us your moose. Show us your there you go. Come on, cark. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Let me drink about that. Let me drink about that. Get myself together. Mary: Come on, Clark. Get it together, Clark. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. ClaRE: Heather, you're up. Heather: W was there anything that motherhood taught you that made you better at your job? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, I yeah, that's good. Probably negotiation, picking picking Heather: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: battles, right, choosing battles, especially at you know, the in the fed law enforcement, reading a mood for sure. and then like i knowing that sometimes when someone's angry or upset at something, it isn't really what they're upset or angry about. There's something Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: else going on there. So and maybe more importantly is that everybody is somebody's child. So I think, you know, that was one thing that That what that taught me too. But I see it now. I'll see, ClaRE: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, these homeless men, you know, they're their boys, young boys. I look at their face, they look so young, and I think, my god, again, they're but for the grace of God, right? And I think, gosh, it breaks my heart. Like, you know, so I don't know what got me onto that. Cause I'cause I'm drinking and that got me emotional talking about my son. Just Heather: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Take that whole thing out. But yeah. But everybody ClaRE: It's all good. I love that. It is hard. Mary: No Heather: No, that's great. That's golden. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: is somebody's child, so yeah, for sure. Heather: Yeah, that's beautiful. That's ClaRE: Yeah. It is. That Heather: beautiful. Mary: Well we'll lighten the mood with this next question. ClaRE: is nice. yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Okay, good. Heather: Mm. Mary: So, which is harder? Getting information from a suspect or getting information from your own child? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Geez, yeah, so susp Heather: Hmm. Hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: suspects absolutely, and that's because there are laws governing, you know, how long I can interrogate them. Heather: Ha ha ha. Mary: What? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So, suspects. Heather: That's great. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: my s my son's always been pretty open with me. Like he pretty much told me everything or or he eventually did. Like, for instance. ClaRE: Hehehehehe. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I remember this story and I've told I tell it to him all the time. when he we were in the car going home from somewhere and it was before dinner and he's I want ice cream out candy, whatever he wanted to put in his face hole, right? And I said, No, we need to eat dinner first and then, you know, maybe you know, not maybe, yeah, we always had ice cream after dinner, and then we'll have ice cream. ClaRE: Yeah. Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So he was very quiet. There was no argument, there was no begging, and that was really strange to me. And then, you know, he just says, Mom And then he's in the back seat in his car seat. He's like, I'm sorry. I'm like, what are you sorry for? And he's like, I called you a poopy head in my head. And I said, mm-hmm, ClaRE: Hehehehehe Heather: Ha ha ha. Mary: Ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: okay, don't do that again. But you know, no investigative technique needed, but I'll have to say suspects were a lot more difficult to get things out of than my son. Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: That's epic, I love that. Honest, that's an honest one. Yeah, seriously. Heather: That's great. Yeah. Mary: I felt like, you know, when becoming a mom, you know, are we work these careers and you know, people do what we tell to do for the majority of and then you become a parent to a toddler and they're like, yeah, I'm like, I don't know what to do with this. They're not doing what I'm telling them to do. Huh? What'd you say? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. Right. Right. Right. Yes. Exactly. Yes. ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha Heather: She's not following my instructions. ClaRE: For those listeners, Mary just showed two fingers. Yeah. I said for those listeners, Mary just showed two very important fingers facing Heather: Ha Mary: That's how it is sometimes. Kids are like, ClaRE: up. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, it absolutely is. Yeah. Yep. Mary: yeah, we ain't doing what you want us to do. But bad guys normally'll do what you want him to do. Heather: Ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I remember when my when my son wouldn't like clean up his toys. I remember being so angry and going behind him with my arms over his making him pick him up with my arms and his arms. Like see? How weird Heather: Ha ha ha ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: is that? So yeah, I get it. Yeah. ClaRE: That topic. That's awesome. Heather: Ha ClaRE: Well, I thought those those questions were gonna have some seriousness to but you can always bring some levity to anything, Shayne. Yeah. I'll shake you before the end of this. I will. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: no. You can't shake me. You can't shake me, Clare! Heather: Ha ha. Mary: Ha ha ha. ClaRE: we all don't want everyone thinking that the FBI was all seriousness, although you just gave us a ton of giggles. But some of the stories Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: you've told us already are

hysterical and they must be shared. Please let us know about the first operation that you ran as a new supervisor. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. She s sugnight. Yeah, so the thing is too is that I became the supervisor of the violent crime task force, but I was also an agent at the same time working, you know, working with the agents and which is so odd I think how that happens in in in law enforcement, right? Like you work hand in hand and then all of a sudden now you're supposed to supervise them. They're probably Yeah, exactly. S yeah. You wanna talk about this? I got that a lot. ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Heather: Now you're the boss. Yeah. no, we know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mary: Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Shayne is pointing up those same two fingers, Mary Dad. For us listeners. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. So you know, I was a new supervisor, and we were going to a house, first operation, going to do a search, you know, at 6 a.m. So we all follow, single file after we did the whole thing, you know, pow wow at a parking lot, here's what we're gonna do. And I end up parking the the bureau car right in front of the townhouse of the suspect, which right there was a rookie move. That was stupid. ClaRE: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And then, you know, you wanna your people to have confidence in you. So I'm like, yeah, I knew I did that too, and already I like, shit and I still needed to project calm leadership, you know? So as I go ClaRE: Hehehehehe Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: to get out of the door, the lights and sirens, of course, go off. ClaRE: Ha ha ha ha ha Heather: no. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And, you know, so much for the element of surprise. But that was my very first time and you know, I just looked ClaRE: Ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: at the they're just shaking their heads. So, hey, i i if y if you're a new supervisor listening to this, whatever you did your first week, you're welcome. Cause yeah. You Mary: How d how did you turn on your lights and sirens? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: know, bless their hearts. They were all being very nice to me after that because I was mortified. But they put like a n they put like my toggle like right where my knee hit, you know, I'm five ClaRE: Yep. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: three, so I hit that. And then as I'm trying to get that off, of course, you know, I hit the the siren stuff. So yeah, it was a mess. It was a mess. Yeah. And they'll s they'll still talk about that too, which I don't blame them. I really don't. Yeah. that was fast, yeah. That was pretty fast. Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: It was epic. It was epic. Mary: That's awesome. Heather: That's great. Mary: How quick did that go around the entire FBI Baltimore? ClaRE: Hehehehehe Heather: That's good. That's Mary: It's awesome. Heather: good. and then we need the story of how you twisted a woman's statement about you into absolute food for the soul. ClaRE: my god, this is my favorite. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Jeez. Yeah,

this says a lot about my personality too, which let me take a let me take a drink real quick for Heather: Ha ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So this was another search, and I was the team leader of this search. And it wasn't my not that it matters, but it it wasn't my case, but Th it was a a white collar crime case. The husband was arrested. We were doing a search warrant and we were at this the kitchen table. It was a big, like big island kitchen table. you know, the wife is understandably angry in the house. you know, we had her he the husband was in one room who's being interviewed, and we had her sitting like in the living room area and a new agent was was watching her. And she keeps getting up and like wandering around the house. You know, the new agent is following her, you know, you gotta sit down. And you know, I get firm And you know I pull out my angry eyes out of my butt like Mr. Potato Head. ClaRE: Hehehehehe Heather: Mm. Mary: Ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I'm like, you know, y you gotta stop wandering. she wanders into the kitchen and opens this enormous pantry and then suddenly she looks at us and she says, Does anybody want a granola bar? ClaRE: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Shoos. Mary: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So I tell her, you know, hey, y y y you need Heather: All right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: to sit down or you'll have to remain with an agent in like a search room with the d the door closed. And she leaves and she says, Fine and she says under her breath, I heard it, fine, you ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: know, skinny blonde bitch. And paused and I'm like you think I'm skinny? And she she looked at me like maybe she was amused. I don't know, but the squad was like, ClaRE: Yeah! Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: my That they did tell her a little bit after that happened. Mary: That's awesome. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And so I said, you know where my head wasn't, wait a minute. Heather: Right. Mary: Thanks. Thanks. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Yeah. Heather: Thank you. ClaRE: second. Hmm, you think I'm skinny? Maybe you can have as many granola bars as you want. It's all good. We're friends now. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I th I know the squad was like w what the hell? Like yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Exactly. Heather: You're right. Do you want to walk around a little more? You're fine. It's fine. We'll we'll follow you. Mary: Well, I th I I think we already know the answer to this next question, but do you think humor sometimes kept you grounded when the work was very heavy? ClaRE: gotta be. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean some of the funniest people I've ever known worked in law enforcement. So I mean I don't think that's accidental, right? Sometimes you know, humor is how we people metabolize difficult things. So I mean it's never laughing at a victim or tragedy for sure, but it's mostly laughing at ourselves. The absurdity of it. The situations like, you know, the granola bar that I didn't even think of that. I like, my gosh, you you think I'm skinny and then you know, the the situations ClaRE: Ha ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: where you like you just find yourself standing in. Like I I can't believe I'm you know, here here I am. This is just so bizarre. So I I think yeah, I think absolute humor plays a is is my coping mechanism. That's let's just call it what it is. It for sure is mine. ClaRE: No, it's fabulous. And you know, it's a like you said, the coping mechanism. can it be a defense mechanism too? Someone's not comfortable and they bring humor into it. I think so too. Yeah, Heather: Definitely. Yeah. Mary: Probably. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. Yeah. ClaRE: I think so too. I think we talked about that earlier. in a different episode is what I'm talking about. what is something people take way too seriously that you find funny? This is gonna be epic. And I don't even know how you're gonna answer it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: gosh. Yeah. Well, don't put pressure on me. But I would Heather: Ha ha. Mary: Hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I Honestly, something people take way too seriously that I find hilarious is when they take themselves way too seriously. Like I mean, the world is a heavy place right now, right? And it's been for some years, but for the love of God, do people ever take themselves so seriously now? ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I mean, like, especially I'm seeing a lot of like people who wanna one up the other person. And, you know, ClaRE: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: when I'm in my sit in a situation like that, like I literally and I hate when people say that, but I do. I literally say to them, Okay, fine, you know You win. I don't care. You win. Like so Heather: You're right. ClaRE: Right. Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think that, you know, and I can be a bit snarky when needed, but I I mean ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think people take that too seriously. Yes. So I think people take Heather: Yeah. Mary: No way. ClaRE: I can't see it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: themselves too seriously. And you know, the other thing is you know, where to go for lunch. Sometimes I've seen out and out arguments in brawl yeah, like, do you want pit ClaRE: Drag down. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: beef? No. We went there like yeah, okay. Yeah. ClaRE: Pit beef is off the menu. That's awesome. Heather: He just gave me a flashback of Baltimore pit beef. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: You know, spe this I gotta write this down because I'm just you're reminding me of this when the pit beef, there's the stand in wood lawn, and I'll never forget I didn't go this day. But s yes! Would Yes Heather: That's the stand. We used to go to that stand. The woodlawn's 'cause yeah, social security headquarters were ClaRE: Yeah, really? Heather: in Woodlawn, yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Okay. Do you remember? There was a time when someone was getting a sandwich and there was this raccoon that was

attacking people at the pit Mary: WHAT? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: beef stand. I gotta remember that. Yes, and I was like ClaRE: You got a Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: part of me was like, damn, the one day I don't go for the pit beef. ClaRE: Ha ha ha! Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I mean maybe it's not so funny now because of the beavers that have been but you know, yeah. that that's all. Sorry about that. Gosh, that was funny. Yeah. ClaRE: say did you wanna be attacked by a raccoon? Heather: I do not remember that. That's pretty funny though. Yeah, that's great. Mary: Maybe they just wanted some of that pit beef. I mean I mean Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: It that's exactly it. Heather: It was good pit beef. It was really good pit beef. ClaRE: You can't fault Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Right. Heather: what's an everyday behavior that instantly makes the writer in you start taking mental notes? ClaRE: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, that's a good one. Probably when I observe people waiting in lines, you know, like that behavior is fascinating to me. And you know, at the grocery Heather: Hmm. ClaRE: Hehehehehe Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: store, you know, the impatience or the post office or like recently for me when going to the bathroom at a the Morgan Wallen concert, I mean, Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, people do the most bizarre things, holding themselves, you know, like you're in public, you're grabbing, you're cry you're doing the dance at a 50-year-old ClaRE: Hurry. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: woman, you know. But just Mary: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think just how people deal with being in Patient, you know, and the huffing and the Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: eye rolling, to me that's hilarious. Like, ClaRE: Who Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: what did you expect? You know, this is Heather: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: called a line, a checkout line. Like, Heather: Dry. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: yeah. So I yeah. Right. So I think ClaRE: It's called a line. It's not called a pit stop or Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: that's a behavior that just that cracks me up. I mean, I'm a patient person unless I'm waiting for a meal, but ClaRE: Boop! Boop! Boop! Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: when people lose their Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: stuff in a line, I find it, I find it really funny. ClaRE: That's good. Heather: It's great. ClaRE: That's good. You gotta write about that. You do. And Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Hehehe. ClaRE: the and the trash panda at the pit beef stand. You gotta r Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes, yes. Yes. Mary: Trash Panda. Alright, so do ClaRE: This is good, Mar. Mary: your family and friends ever get nervous that something they say is gonna end up in one of your stories? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Nah, ClaRE: Ooh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: nah, they aren't nervous, 'cause I'll tell them if I'm going to write about them or they'll see me actually yeah, getting on my phone and like you know, putting it in the notes, right. So they already know how I am. No one is safe and they so yeah. Heather: Start notes. Mary: Taking notes. Heather: Ha ha. Mary: Ha ha ha. ClaRE: No one is safe. that's awesome. so my next question Mary: Mm. ClaRE: was literally just answered by the last two questions. So Heather, why don't you move on with your question? Is that okay? That was great, Shayne. It was perfect. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Hm. Heather: Okay. Yeah, absolutely. When when something ridiculous or disastrous happens now, how long does it take before you think this is absolutely terriful terrible, but boy would it make a good story. Immediately. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Well that's immediately for me, right? I recognize it. That's a talent. I'll recognize when you have shown your ass or done something incredibly stupid immediately. But mostly it's myself. Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: Ha Heather: Great. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: But like I have one one example though, in particular that I've never written about because it's a little touchy. So sometimes I have to like check myself and what we, you know, in law enforcement things we've seen in how we use humor. you know, we have to I have to be careful about what I find funny somebody might not find funny. Heather: Sure. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So ClaRE: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So here's one of them. Heather: So get ready. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So at a previous job, I had to review incident reports. and in this particular report, a funeral home arrived to pick up a deceased patient, but the attendant from the funeral home had brought a cart that was apparently too small for this the job, for picking up the patient. So as they were wheeling the patient through the morgue doorway, one of the wheels caught on like this the metal lip in the threshold going to outside, causing the patient to fall. So a supervisor responded and they found the patient on the right side, halfway outside the Moor doorway, with the Moore cart caught on its side. So the cart tipped over with the deceased patient on it. Now Obviously, there's nothing funny about the person who died at all. But the incident report that was written, it follow I mean, it was one of the most extraordinarily detailed things I've ever read. There were timestamps, security offers, administrators, you know, being notified, an examination ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: for possible injuries, a discussion about like the width of the cart and the malfunctioning wheel and the metal ClaRE: Okay. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: lip in the doorway, and then essentially there was like an after-action review about whether funeral homes should be. told a person's a person's wait before they arrive. I remember I remember reading the yes, I remember reading this ClaRE: My gosh, the calculus. Heather: Wow. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: incredibly serious, you know, institutional document and thinking, my gosh, this is awful. This should not

have happened. And then almost immediately saying, gosh, this is an amazing story. But like I can't Heather: This was a great story. Mary: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: like I can't tell someone because they're gonna be like, you never know. Mary: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Like did so, you know, sometimes I just have to hold my I didn't hear, but sometimes I'm just like what do I do with that information? ClaRE: Ha ha ha Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: that I find funny. Yeah. But exactly. So feel free if it's too sensitive. I had to get it out. Thank you for this platform. Heather: Tell it on a podcast. Perfect. We're so glad you did. Mary: That's right. ClaRE: Heaven. You just did it, she You just did it, girl. Heather: Course, that's what we're here for. Mary: You're welcome. Glad we could release that for you. So let's talk about you, ClaRE: You feel better now? Shh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, I do. Mary: you as the writer. So you said ClaRE: Yes. Mary: that writing doesn't feel completely separate from investigating. Both involve observing people, asking questions, and trying to understand why someone behaves the way that they do. When did you realize writing was becoming more than something you enjoyed doing? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah I It was when I started at Johns Hopkins. I I needed to put my thoughts down and how I was reacting ClaRE: Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and and coping in this new private strange environment for me. so the private work ClaRE: Boop! Boom! Boom! Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: world was different for me and and so honestly I I just needed to to get that out and write thoughts down on paper. But ClaRE: Boop! Boom! Boom! Boom! Boop! Boom! Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the evolution though of of me writing is ClaRE: What? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: is simple. I'd always written, you know, professionally Forever, right? My clinical reports or FBI reports, talking points, ClaRE: No, no. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: communications, public affairs, but that was completely different with like I have something that I want to say. So that's when I said, you know, I wanted I want to hone on that skill and and work on a master's degree in in writing. then I took a humor writing class and I discovered that I loved writing humor. and one of the things I loved too was reading my classmates' humor and then saying, my gosh, there's another joke there. We can totally lift that ClaRE: Can build this, yeah. Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes, yeah. It so Heather: That's great. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I love that and I got so excited about humor actually that I signed up for an improv class. So you know, yeah, I sucked. I totally sucked. No, I sucked. I will not do that. One and done. Yeah, Heather: Wow. That's awesome. ClaRE: Can we come and see you? come on. Heather: I hear Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: that was some, yeah. it was awful. It was so frightening. So frightening. Mary: You sure? We can do another episode with you

if you want to try again. We we can do an improv with Shayne. Heather: Absolutely, yes. ClaRE: Yeah. We could. Well you have another platform here in the future if you Mary: That's right. Heather: Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: No I do not. Unless unless Jake Jason Sadecas is running it, then I sign me up for that. Yeah. Alright, cool. But Mary: We'll start working on that, okay, when he's done with all the Ted Lasso stuff. He'll be ready for Fed Chicks. Heather: Then you're in. ClaRE: okay. Yeah. Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: can you come as Ted Lasso? 'Cause that's what I really like. Yeah. I know. Keely. You could totally do it. ClaRE: I know we're so sweet. He's so sweet. I'll I'll be the hot blonde. That's she's so hot. Mary: Right. ClaRE: with the English accent. my god, she's so cute. I know. I always wanted an accent sidebar. Anyway. Heather: Ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah ClaRE: you spent years writing professionally. But FBI writing has rules, structure, and a very specific purpose. What did it feel like the first time you sat down to write simply because you had a story you wanted to tell or an absurdity you wanted to share? Was it a relief? Was it hard, easy? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. I had always journaled sporadically off and on in life. so usually I journaled though, I picked it up when I felt like something was off. Like something was weird. I don't know what it is, I just had to get it down. And it wasn't poetic or anything good. Maybe, you know, just like life sucks, you know, when you're younger or something like that. ClaRE: What? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: but I started to feel off a little when I tired retired from the FBI and I entered the private sector. And I s I said that before, but I I found myself wanting to write about what I was experiencing and then to channel it more formally instead of like I said, dear journal, I'm frustrated that you know 17 people had to review my writing plan at Hopkins and yet I could write for Heather: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the FBI and two people had to look at it. You know, it's just a whole new world for me. So ClaRE: Right. Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: unfortunately for Hopkins, they're they're pretty good at paying for your schooling if you want to go back to school. So I thought, you know, why not? ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Right. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: so I told my boss that since I was in communications, I would like to hone my skills and pursue my master's degree in writing to get Hopkins to pay for it. it was definitely a stretch because my writing path is fiction, so it had nothing to do with with legit, but but I'm thankful for the opportunity ClaRE: Ha ha ha Heather: Ha ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: and and for the funding for sure. But so back to your question. The first time I think that I I really focused on what I wanted to write, sat down. It I was it was writing about myself and how I noticed that I was taking myself so seriously

and trying to acclimate to my new environment. So, you know it ClaRE: That's perfect. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know, you find I I said I find that hilarious when people start taking themselves too seriously, and that's what I was doing. So my first piece was created while taking that humor writing course I talked about and it was titled Tips for FBI agents preparing to transition to civilian employment, re-entry tactics Heather: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: to acclimate ClaRE: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: to society. So that was it. Heather: It's great. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I had such a fun time writing it, and I'm like, I can dig. ClaRE: yeah. Absolutely. Heather: That's great. ClaRE: That's awesome. Very cool. Yeah. Heather: Yeah, I love that. Do you think your years of interviewing and observing people helped you create the characters you write about now? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: it Yes, to an extent, for sure. but I'll admit I have like we I said before, I have to be careful because some things maybe those who aren't somehow connected to law enforcement might not find acceptable to write about. Like, for instance, how the nervous system of a person I there forget this. So th I'll put it the nervous system of a person who just committed a heinous crime, an awful crime, would fart throughout the interview. And like, Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: farts are funny, right? But assaults are not. So like I had to be careful and Heather: Yes. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: you know So on yes, on how I could use ClaRE: The salts are not funny. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: this, but yeah. Yeah. That's because it's you three Heather: But you talking about both in the same sentence is really funny. ClaRE: Yes. That's Mary: So tell us about your first finished book. It's called Molting. What drew you to this story, and what does molting mean to you in the context of the book? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, so well, it's a crime novel, but crime isn't really what interests me most when I was writing this. It was like it's an it's a crime novel but about reputation. So it's the difference between who we are, who we think we are, and who we need other people to believe we are. So everybody, all the characters in molting, they're protecting some version of themselves in in some way. So the title the the title molting is like means like shedding an exterior that no longer fits. So, you know, growth can look ugly while it's happening, and there's a vulnerability while the old covering, I guess, if you will, is gone and new growth begins to form. So it was relevant relevant for me for sure at the time because I started working on it when I retired and started taking the you know that the master's degree courses. Because ClaRE: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I was going through retirement, career transition, you know, motherhood to grandmotherhood, an agent to a writer. you know I had was diagnosed with you know cancer and then old identities were Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: just shedding and then the new ones were emerging and and that's what just kept me kept me at writing molting. So yeah ClaRE: well we can't glaze over that. Are you doing okay? What's going on? Yeah. You sound it, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, I'm doing great. Doing fantastic. Yeah. Just ClaRE: you look it, you're unbelievable. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: yeah. I mean it puts things in you know, the people have breast cancer and things a lot worse than I do, did. And I I'm just just very happy you know, we caught it early and I just feel for those that, you know, don't have that opportunity sometimes to go to the doctor and get their the right things they need to take care of themselves. But yeah, I mean I'm I'm I'm doing great. Thank you. ClaRE: we're glad to hear it. You're glad Heather: Good. Good. Yeah, glad to hear Mary: Good. Good. Heather: it. ClaRE: to hear it. So, okay, now we're gonna make you stop thinking so much. We're going to give you the beginning of a sentence, finish it with whatever comes to your head first. Funny is fine, serious is fine, and slightly inappropriate is preferable, if you'd like. So, Heather, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Okay. Heather: Mm. ClaRE: do you wanna start us off on this one? Heather: Sure. All right. Nobody tells you that being a female FBI agent means Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Means sweating in all the wrong places. When it's a really Mary: No. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: hot day. Boobs and crotch. So embarrassing. ClaRE: Mary, Mary. Mary: N Nobody tells you that being a working mother means Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: means Ugh shit. There's a lot of th nobody tells you meaning a working mother means having to put on your lights and sirens wa when you need to get your kid up from daycare. I don't know, yeah. Or get or get milk or whatever. Heather: Mm. ClaRE: Nothing wrong with that, girl. Priorities. Heather: Ha ha ha. Mary: Ha ha ha ha. ClaRE: Nobody tells you that retirement means. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: means you're not really retired. Your brain is Heather: huh. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: still going, it's still act active, so yeah. ClaRE: True. Love it. Heather: Nobody tells you that becoming a grandmother means Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Gosh. Means you know what? You will still you will pick anybody's boogers, clean their poop up, that is not your only child, and it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Heather: Ha ha ha ClaRE: It is okay. Mary: N Nobody tells you that becoming a writer means Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Jeez means the vulnerability that comes with it, for sure. Yeah. And putting yourself out there, you know, if you suck, Heather: Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: it that's that's it. but yeah, vulnerability. ClaRE: I love this question. I'm so glad it came to me. What is a completely unreasonable hill that you're willing to die on? What is it, girl? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: That would be Gosh, it's hard to s it's hard to put into words, but Is

being vocal sometimes when people think that they and Mary, you had did it you had mentioned it earlier. Is saying things even though when it's it might not be how I don't know how to put this. Calling people out for their behavior when they're treating other people disrespectfully or mean for lack of better word, but calling calling that to their attention, like I I think that's that's a hill that I will will die on. I don't like to see people being treated poorly and I make it a point to let them know about themselves. You know, yeah. It's amazing though ClaRE: I don't think that's unreasonable. I think that's a good one. I thought you were gonna see like an M and M National Holiday or something, girl. Heather: That's great. No, that's awesome. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: but it amazes me. Like you see the the bystander, you know, effect and things that people just watch things go on and, you know, we Heather: Yeah, allow it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: don't and I get it, you know, takes yeah, it's uncomfortable, but you know, ClaRE: Good, good, good. Just a couple more. Heather: what's something about getting older that nobody warned you would actually be funny? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Jeez, like the cost of Botox, and I'm not gonna lie. Like these 11s, like that is why I'm still working. Yeah. Yeah. Heather: Ha ha ha. Mary: Ha ha ClaRE: I won't go there yet. I won't. But maybe that's why I complain about my jowells Heather: Mm. I just keep hoping that we Mary: Ha ha. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Nope. Heather: get some sponsorships from some kind of glam, you know, like a free, mask or something. We need something, the face tape. We'll start an Amazon storefront. I don't know. Okay. Go get yours. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: And you and you guys have to wear them during the podcast. ClaRE: I want the face tape. I want the face tape. I want the face tape. Yes. We'll do it. Sponsors will do it. Mary: I should w I should wear my I bought that collagen thing, that crazy devil looking mask. I got the face and the neck. I should wear that on one of our episodes. But it only it's it's only for three minutes and then I'd have to take it off. It's three minutes a day. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: yeah, yeah. You should as you should ClaRE: Totes. Totes. We're gonna We're gonna do an Heather: I'll wear mine too. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. ClaRE: episode or reel on things we'll do to be beautiful. Alright. I'm gonna wear face Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Okay. Heather: totally. Totally. Mary: I'm wearing my mask. ClaRE: tape, even if it's masking or duct tape, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. ClaRE: from my from my Heather: Yeah. ClaRE: husband's garage. Mary: Okay, all right. When you look back ClaRE: Capa. Mary: at the years when you were trying to be present for both your career and your family, what do you think you learned the most that could maybe help our listeners who are in the same situation? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I think mainly it's try stay off your phone as much as possible when you're home. if someone Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: really needs you at work, they'll find a way to get you, right? and and the and the other thing is when you're at work, we know this, reputation speaks volumes. Be good at your job, be a hard worker, mentor, learn. So if there's time when you can't make a search or an interview, they're not gonna say, they're just a slacker. No, they're a hard worker and this is important to them because family comes first and I think also it's just to have humility. I mean I mean, I think that's really, really important is yeah. Mary: It's really important. I agree. ClaRE: I love that. Heather: Those are great answers. ClaRE: I love that. Heather: If you could sit beside the exhausted working mom version of yourself for five minutes, what would you want her to know now? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Want to know that you know Your son's going to be okay. you're not ruining his childhood because you missed that game. You're not betraying your squad because you went home. you know, your family deserves parts of you that the FBI doesn't get. you're gonna screw things up, you're gonna succeed at things and still wonder whether you belong. and you don't have to become one of the guys. I know that Mary Ann had said that before. I totally agree. You don't have to become one of the guys. you don't have to tell everyone what you accomplished, right? That's the humility. ClaRE: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: You don't have to win every frickin' battle. and you don't have to carry the title forever. I mean, you know, the badge is something you wear, it's not who we are. Heather: Mm. Absolutely. Mary: Very good advice. Well ClaRE: This part was supposed to make you cry and it's making me cry. It is. Heather: Mm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Mm. Mary: Yeah. Very good advice. ClaRE: when your son thinks about his childhood, what do you hope he remembers most about you? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So I I tried. Yeah. ClaRE: You got this girl. Yeah, you touched on this earlier and you did. You did great. And he validated that for you. Yes, Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah, see that. Heather: It's beautiful. ClaRE: he did. good. I got a little bit from you. You did. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Woo I don't cry this damn Marty Moose or whatever this is sangria. Mary: Okay, so let's see, and now you get to experience your family from an entirely different place as a grandmother. What has Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. Mary: being a grandmother given you that you didn't even know you were missing? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Ooh, ooh, that's a good one. I think the ability to step back, and it gives me great joy to see my son with his daughter. So just to step back and look at at how the wonderful parent that he's become, and you know I had to do s I had to take apart some of that, right? Take I guess, those roots and he and ClaRE: Yeah you did. Mary: That's right. You played a role in that, yep.

Heather: Yeah, absolutely. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: the fact that he is hilarious and that she Heather: Mm-hmm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: also has a sense of humor, so that they're not taking themselves so seriously either. So, ClaRE: Perfect. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I I really I really like that part about being a grandmother. Ugh. Heather: That's great. ClaRE: I wonder who they got that from. Hmm Mary: Uh-huh. Heather: You spent so much of your life observing people, but if people observed you, who would you say knows you best? And what do they know about you that the rest of the world probably doesn't? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: So who knows me best? My husband. it took me three tries to finally land on a fantastic husband that I have. he just accepts me completely for who I am and I'm not easy to love or live with. I am neurotic. I you know, I'm not moody, but I'm very I I'm very set sometimes in my ways. so I think that the people that don't don't probably don't know that about me. They always see me smiling and you know, but there's Heather: Mm. Yeah. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: some times that I am just like, you know, no, I'm not gonna budge or something like that. but I I'd say my husband, bless his heart, he puts up with me for sure. Heather: Great. ClaRE: we're gonna end this out with some rapid fire and Shayne, I adore you and how you want to give the best answer ever, but we're going to request that you give your answers quickly because I want the first thing that comes on your head. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yes. Mary: First thing. ClaRE: Not, not for time's sake. Mary: Mm. ClaRE: You take, this is your, your Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Yeah. ClaRE: episode, but just the first thing comes on your mind. Okay. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Okay. Not a ti not a time to become mute h I'm ClaRE: Steak out snack. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Cheetos. ClaRE: Peanut &M's Snack or Food Group. Coffee order. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Food group. vanilla latte sugar free. ClaRE: Worst liar, criminals or children? FBI Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Children. ClaRE: training or motherhood, which prepared you better for chaos? Heather: Hm. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: FBI training. ClaRE: Most FBI things still in your house. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: of course all the atta boy things, right? So all about how fabulous I am, my career's bad. ClaRE: One word your FBI partners would use to describe you. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Quirky. ClaRE: One word your son would use to describe you. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Quirky. Heather: Ha ha ha. ClaRE: What words do you hope your grandchildren use to describe you? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: badass. Heather: Nice. Nice. ClaRE: I like that one. Paper booker Kindle. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: book ClaRE: pen or keyboard. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Pen. ClaRE: Writing in silence or with music? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Music. ClaRE: Comedy or crime? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Comedy. ClaRE: Morning person or night owl? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Morning. ClaRE: Nice. And I'll give one more favorite guilty pleasure. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: It's not the peanut MMs that I that I would have to s Heather: Ha ha ha. ClaRE: Whatever you want. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: I would have to say eggnog. Okay. ClaRE: Perfect. Absolutely perfect. Well, Shayne, think... Heather: That's great. ClaRE: Go ahead. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Can I just say that I've never I I've I don't know why I said Cheetos. I don't I never eat Cheetos. So I'm just lying. And I don't I only drink black coffee. I only drink black coffee, Heather: It's lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: so I totally lied through this whole thing. I ClaRE: you generally drink black coffee? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: guess. I don't know, you made me nervous. ClaRE: here. Heather: Where'd you put the money, Shayne? Where'd you put it? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Ex cracksack? ClaRE: one more question. If your FBI years were a book, what genre would they be? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: What gen what genre? it'd probably be comedy. ClaRE: Yeah. And if your life right now had a chapter title, what would it be called? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: doused in mud, soaked in bleach. ClaRE: Ha ha ha! That's perfect. Well, Heather: Great. ClaRE: Shayne, think one of the things I love most that we all love most about your story is that the extraordinary part isn't simply that you've spent more than two decades at the FBI, it's that the career, was just one chapter of a much bigger life. There was the agent, there was the working mother trying to make everything work every way she possibly could. There was the woman finding reasons to laugh in some very serious places. There's the wife, the friend, the mother and the grandmother and now the podcaster. And there Heather: Mm-hmm. ClaRE: is the writer who gets to take everything she has observed about people for all those years and turn it into stories. You've said the badge is something you wear, it isn't all of who we are, and I think your life is a really beautiful example of that. Because you've told us earlier, titles eventually change, careers eventually end, but the people we love, the way we made them feel, the laughter we shared, and the stories we leave behind, those are the things that have a much longer life. So thank you for letting us know the woman behind the badge and all the funny and warm stories that showed the special side of you. And congratulations on molting. Listeners, please check it out and go and support Shayne on her new venture. Yeah. Heather: Shayne, what's your website? Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: It's it's pretty original. It's Shayne Buckwell Nichols dot com. Thank you. Thank you. ClaRE: It's perfect. That's perfect. We will. We've really enjoyed spending this time with you and Heather: Excellent. We'll put that in the show notes and put it across the screen. ClaRE: thank you for Heather: Yes. ClaRE: taking your time out of your day to make us laugh like I've Heather: Yes. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: No, thank you. ClaRE: I warned the girls she's gonna make you laugh like yeah. Heather: Absolutely, absolutely. Mary: I wanna go out for drinks with you now, Shayne. I'm Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Then I'll have two. Mary: bringing my moose mug. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: Good, good. And and ClaRE: Let's all do it. Shayne Buchwald-Nickoles: know the words of Jolene, please, cause eventually Thank you and thank you thank you all three for being so very kind and generous with your time and for saying such kind things about me. I appreciate it. ClaRE: We adore you and Heather: All true. ClaRE: thank you for being here for listeners and watchers this is FEDCHICS and this is where it got real. Heather: And that wraps up another episode of Fed Chicks. Thanks so much for spending your time with us. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a minute to like, subscribe, share, and leave us a review. It really helps other women in federal law enforcement find the show. Make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel and you're following us on Instagram and Facebook so you don't miss behind-the-scenes moments, episode updates, and a few stories we probably shouldn't tell, but do anyway. Have an idea for an episode, want to share your story, or be a guest? We'd love to hear from you. Email us at FEDChicks@gmail.com or leave a comment wherever you're listening. And just a quick reminder: this podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only. The views and opinions expressed here are our own and do not represent any agency or the federal government. Nothing we share should be considered financial, career, or retirement advice. Until next time, this is FedChicks and this is where it gets real.