Full Transcript for The Phone Call That Could Cost Someone Their Long Service Leave I Toni Minovski

have you on Evolving Workforce. 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:14.879 Um, you work directly with businesses on compliance. 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:17.599 Um what's the biggest shift that you're seeing now? 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:22.240 Yeah, I think there's a a huge focus on compliance at the moment. 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:33.599 I think a lot of organizations have have seen what's happening in the media, there's there's a lot of reports of non-compliance and and there's been some very high-profile cases over the last few years. 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:37.280 And they don't want to be that organization. 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:43.520 So there's this huge focus now on making sure that they get it right before it turns into a problem. 00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:53.919 So um, you know, and they're they're doing their research, they're talking to the right people, they're talking to, you know, the Fairwork Ombudsman, they're talking to me, um, they're talking to New South Wales IR. 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:59.199 So they're talking and they're also going out there looking for advice and information. 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:13.759 So you know, I I I think you'll find that uh those organizations that are out there trying to find the information, um uh they're they're in the right boat, they're doing the right thing at the moment. 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:33.360 Um and there's also the the shift to uh to AI, where you know you've got organizations that uh that are claiming that they have the perfect uh I I use long service leave as my example, the perfect long service leave calculator, and there's a number of them that have come out and said that they have that. 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:35.439 Um I haven't tested any of them. 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.960 I've looked at a few, they're brilliant, they look fantastic. 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:41.039 Um I hope they've got it right. 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:52.240 I haven't done any calculations to confirm it, but I can tell you they're working on it using AI, using their their the their technologies, they've got things going in the right directions. 00:03:52.479 --> 00:04:01.360 Um obviously payroll needs to make sure they pay considerable, you know, they pay a lot of attention to to what's happening in that space. 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:09.520 But um I think uh a lot of uh organizations are seeing payroll now as as something that you know we've got to make sure we get it right. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:11.520 Absolutely, absolutely. 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:17.199 Now, what's driving this tighter regulation is driving this, is it tighter regulation? 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.560 Are workforces getting more complex or or both? 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:31.759 Yeah, at the Australian Payroll Summit, we uh we heard one of the speakers there um advise us all that the Australian industrial relations landscape is the third most complex in the world. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:32.879 And it is. 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:37.680 It is not a simple legislations or legislations. 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:39.839 Uh there's industrial instruments. 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:48.959 The system itself is quite difficult, and then you've got legislations like the Long Service Leave Act that's 71 years old. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:52.319 Um so organizations know that it's complex. 00:04:52.560 --> 00:05:02.240 So you've also got the changing workforce, AI coming in, a huge casual uh focus now as well, and part-time focus. 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:09.839 So everything seems to be moving in different directions, and the hope is that but that payroll can move with it. 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.839 It's not an easy task for them. 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:18.000 Um and that's why I suppose there's now that focus on we need to make sure we get payroll right. 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:23.439 Now, for many leaders, perhaps in the past, maybe currently, you can tell me. 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:31.279 Payroll compliance feels like a a back office function, just something that's sort of left off the the boardroom conversation. 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:33.680 Um what's your thoughts about that, Tom? 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.000 I I'll agree that that was the case. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:41.199 That yeah, there there was a huge you know, payroll will look after itself. 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:45.680 We only need the one person in there, a small team or whatever it might be, that'll do the trick. 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:46.560 You know. 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.199 And and think about it, payroll's the for me, the most important thing. 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:56.879 You have to make sure you you pay the people their money, their what they're entitled to. 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:02.399 And um, you know, if someone is out there working their butt off for you and they're coming in, they you want them to have a smile on their face. 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:06.480 I'll tell you what, making sure they're paid correctly is gonna help in in terms of that. 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:18.000 Um But I think employers are starting to think that, hold on a second, we've got to make sure that we put some effort into getting payroll right. 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:23.279 Um, and then that that evolved into payroll people now getting a lot of training. 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:27.680 So payroll specialists and professionals, and that's what they should be referred to. 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:32.959 Um in my view, the community first up is brilliant. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:35.199 There's uh a number of amazing events. 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.720 There's organizations like yours that are doing these types of things. 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:46.000 And they're doing a lot more to make sure that that that together they're gonna get it right. 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:51.360 And I think the boardroom is now looking at it thinking, let's manage that risk. 00:06:51.600 --> 00:07:00.480 We want to make sure that our employees are being paid correctly for a number of

reasons, but obviously because we want them to turn up and do the best they can for us. 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:07.040 Now you've said before um before legislation alone doesn't necessarily change outcomes. 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:31.839 Um where do organizations typically fall apart when it comes to knowing the rules, the you know, the award interpretation and and actually how how to apply the awards and EBAs and Do you know it's it's it's even up to a few years ago, I can still remember people and I I'm not the person, the expert on uh unfair dismissals and those types of things, but I still remember um people saying, you know, you've got to give someone three warnings. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.399 And you know, Fair Work Act doesn't say that anyway. 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:52.079 You know, so there's and and that's just an example of how it's just hearsay and what you know, the the the pub test, what someone said down at the coffee shop, yeah, they've got to do this, oh you you're entitled to overtime, oh you should get long service leave after seven years, oh you know, that sort of stuff. 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:59.040 And and organizations have just sort of thought, well, yeah, that's kind of right, that sounds good, yeah, just go with it. 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:00.959 That's caught companies out. 00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:04.480 That's that's probably why we've had a lot of issues. 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:14.800 But now we have payroll specialists, payroll experts that are that are in these organizations that are advising the boardroom that, you know, no, this is not how it works. 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:17.279 This is what we need to get right now. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:22.560 And and uh we need to do the research and make sure uh we pay people the right monies. 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:25.439 Now, let's talk about long service leave for a moment. 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.680 Um, something that organizations assume is quite straightforward. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.000 Um, what seems to be catching businesses out. 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:33.919 Long service leave is my favorite topic. 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:34.639 You know that, Dave. 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:34.960 I know. 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:36.240 Um yeah, look. 00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:50.159 Um, we released the long service leave guidance on the on the 1st of March to help organizations better understand what is a very complex legislation. 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.799 Sadly, there's not a lot of case law when it comes to the 71-year-old law. 00:08:54.960 --> 00:09:09.039 Um so we needed to bring something out to help people understand it, to help payroll professionals with formulas and what happens if uh a casual takes a a long-term absence, et cetera. 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:16.799 And I think that that document itself has brought a huge uh interest in long service leave. 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:27.679 There's also been some high-profile cases that where employers unfortunately have have made

mistakes and and not paid the correct entitlements when it comes to long service leave. 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:31.919 So again, other organizations are looking at this and thinking, I don't want to be them. 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:34.159 So let's fix this before it's a problem. 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:39.600 So that's one of the reasons why I think of drinking so much coffee and having so many stakeholder engagement meetings. 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:43.279 It's um uh there's a lot of interest in long service leave at the moment. 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:58.960 Uh and so digging into when businesses, you know, when it doesn't go right, when when what is the impact uh look like when compliance isn't managed is managed poorly, financial, operational, reputational, what happens? 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:00.080 Aaron Ross Powell, all of the above. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.360 You know, it's it's it's in terms of your reputation as an organization. 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:10.559 Obviously, if you're not paying your long-term employees an entitlement correctly, it it kind of hurts. 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:15.600 And and other, you know, it's in terms of a reputational risk, it doesn't make you look very good, does it? 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:32.559 And in terms of of people, I also think that if an or if if an employee has provided you with more than 10 years of service, when you're paying them their long service leave, whether they're taking the leave or if it's on termination, you want to make sure you do the right thing by them. 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:38.480 Um, you know, there organizations are are looking into at least getting that right. 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:48.240 And that's where I mentioned software packages earlier and and um the the different payroll companies coming out with these perfect long service leave calculators. 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:49.200 I hope they are. 00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:51.120 And I again I I can't mention them. 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.399 A lot of organizations that we all know of are saying that they've got it. 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:59.360 I hope they do, and I hope that they they work perfectly for uh for their clients. 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:02.960 Um but yeah, it's worth looking into those types of things. 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:14.879 I'll also mention that New South Wales Industrial Relations in that space, we've got the guidance out there, we've got our long service leave calculator on the website, we've got FAQs on the website. 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:28.399 Um we also uh have an area of the website which we don't focus a lot on, but the self-reporting, where we will then work with you and assist you in fixing the long service leave problem that you have in New South Wales. 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.559 So is that when you talk about self-reporting, let's dig into that a little bit more. 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:39.279 That's uh for the last five years I've paid people incorrectly, or I don't know how to pay, can you advise me? 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:40.320 Either or. 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:41.279 You know, this is the thing. 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:45.200 We if if you're having difficulty, self-report, let us know. 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:53.279 If anything, I can come out and uh discuss what's happening, have a look at what's happening and and possibly resolve the issue for you then and there. 00:11:53.360 --> 00:12:01.919 Um but there might be might be a requirement for for further remediations or some sort of an audit to take place as well, and we'll we'll be a part of that as well. 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:09.039 So, you know, one of the things is especially because we've released this new guidance, we don't want to have that big stick approach. 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:19.840 So, you know, we're not out there to get you, we're out there to help you, and we're out there to uh to make sure that compliance is achieved with this difficult long service leave legislation. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:20.879 Very good. 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.799 Now at Evolving Workforce, we like to play a couple of quick games. 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:28.320 The first one is called humans versus AI. 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:34.639 So as we've talked about, AI is certainly showing up in payroll, in compliance software. 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:42.000 Um where do these tools generally help and where do we definitely need humans uh to check what's happening? 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:44.960 Do you know, uh like I said, I've I've mentioned it a few times. 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:51.519 A lot of organizations have have approached New South Wales IR and and said to us they have the perfect AI tool. 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.600 Um and I hope they do. 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:54.799 I will say that. 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.759 Um I don't know if they do, but I hope they do. 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.679 Um You're always going to need the human, though. 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:06.720 You know, and and partly long service leave in New South Wales is complex. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:25.039 And an example will be you've got the phone call that's come in from and and we're talking, let's say, a small retail business, the phone call that's come in from your your 16-year-old casual employee to state that they're unavailable uh over the next four days because they've got exams. 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.919 So they're telling you they're not available. 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:35.679 But the long service leave legislation and our guidance now states that that absence doesn't count as service. 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:38.639 It doesn't break their service, but it doesn't count as service. 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.720 And who's taking that call? 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:44.720 So you might have the 18-year-old manager who's received that phone call. 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:46.879 You need that person to record that. 00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:52.799 And that again, the conversation that they're having, only they can

interpret that. 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.519 They they know what they're they're saying to each other. 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:59.759 I can't see AI being involved in that aspect right now. 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:15.600 Also, the work I do, stakeholder engagement, building relationships so that I can help organizations understand long service leave and a complex legislation. 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.639 Can I just suggest that that that sort of thing? 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:23.360 Um you can go to AI and AI will give you a response and say, Yeah, some of those AIs are pretty cool. 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.960 They they talk to you in a certain uh in a fun tone. 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:33.919 But again, it's having that relationship with someone where you can go to them and talk to them and and discuss different things. 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:36.399 I think AI has its place. 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:46.960 Um I'm no AI expert, I will say that, but uh I think the human aspect has to be there, and especially with complex legislations that require that human aspect. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:48.080 Absolutely. 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:51.440 Now, our next game is change your mind. 00:14:51.679 --> 00:15:06.639 So has anything shifted in your thinking over the last uh, say, couple of years in terms of responsibility for compliance, which usually sits um at the leadership payroll um or or or the systems that have been used? 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.879 You know, all of the above, there's been a huge shift in the last few years. 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:17.679 Um and can I just suggest, again, the payroll community in general is um is amazing. 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:27.840 And they're working together, whether it's the software companies, whether it's the um the payroll specialists, whether whether it's the boards themselves. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.159 Everyone has a focus on compliance. 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:39.919 And I've I've noticed this uh a lot more in in the work that I do, uh, that people want to be compliant more than I've ever seen. 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:45.759 And I think that is a a good thing, whether they're using technology to assist them in that, that that is happening as well. 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:53.519 Yes, there's a greater focus on the use of technology and looking into what AI can do to assist in that that area. 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:59.279 But um there is a huge change and that has come about over the last few years. 00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:08.720 And I also give a heads up to organizations like yours and and some of the bigger payroll associations have who have also made that focus there as well. 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:14.080 They've they've made sure that um, you know, it's it's they they need the clients. 00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:22.480 Obviously, it's fantastic for them to have the clients using them, but they're working really hard in that compliance space as well to help their clients be compliant. 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:31.519 And so, you know, that that focus of everyone working together seems to have uh evolved over the last few years, and I've I I've not seen it this good in a long time. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:41.600 And continuing on with the theme of uh evolution/slash revolution, what's uh the next next section we've got is prediction versus warning. 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:46.240 Uh can you make one prediction and one warning about workforce compliance? 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.320 Uh I'm going to talk long service leave. 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:50.240 That's where I know my stuff. 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:56.240 Uh my prediction, um harmonization won't happen in the next five years. 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:57.759 I'm very sorry for that one. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:59.759 I know that a lot of people wish it did. 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.240 Um Talk to me about that. 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:03.360 What do you mean by harmonization? 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:07.680 Well, everyone wants one long service leave system for Australia. 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:12.480 And I'm not gonna lie, that would make things a lot simpler and a lot easier for everyone. 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:21.119 And it may mean that I'm out on the s on the scrap heap and looking for work, but I'd prefer that if it made things easier for uh for employers. 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:25.440 But at the same time, we have an existing system that works. 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:30.400 Um a lot of employees and employers don't mind it and it's there. 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:35.119 But I don't believe harmonization w will happen in the next five years. 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.079 But that's just going to be and that is Tony's opinion. 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.519 I'll I'll stress that one, um, not any governments. 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:43.359 Um what was the other part of that? 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:44.400 A warning. 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:45.680 Ah, a warning. 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.359 Um Yeah, AI. 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:54.240 I'll I'll warn against just making sure that you think that AI is going to give you the perfect response. 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:00.480 Please make sure that a human checks it and make sure that you check that calculation. 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:08.720 Um as much as I'd love to think they're going to be perfect, I don't think they will be, and I prefer that uh we don't have the mistake. 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.920 That's why have the human check that calculation. 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.200 Well, Tony, thank you so much for being on Evolving Workforce. 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.039 Is there anything else that leaders should know about workforce compliance that we haven't covered in today's podcast? 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:31.279 Look, one of the things that I keep, and and I've it's it is become my little catch-cry of it, um the data that goes into any system is the most important thing. 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:43.200 So when it comes to uh compliance of industrial relations laws and long service leave record keeping, just make sure that your record keeping is extremely thorough. 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:53.119 We've done a lot of different things in this space at New South Wales Industrial Relations with the information we're putting out there on our LinkedIns and different social medias. 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:58.079 We want people to make sure they're very thorough with their record keeping. 00:18:58.240 --> 00:18:59.920 So that's the big one from me. 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.640 Tony, thank you so much for being on Evolving Workforce. 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:03.839 Thank you very much for having me. 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:04.640 See you later, mate. 00:19:05.039 --> 00:19:05.599 Thank you. 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.640 This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gadigal people. 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.720 If you enjoyed this podcast, why not send to a friend or a colleague? 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:46.559 And remember to hit follow on your podcast player to get every episode as they drop every Wednesday. 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:47.759 Thanks for listening. 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:51.279 I've been Dave Kenyon, and this is Evolving Workforce.