Full Transcript for How a 29-Year-Old Bought a Chinese Factory From New York

out or you just um funked out? 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:23.199 Basically. 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:24.560 A little bit of both. 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:29.520 I was I was like in school trying to like figure out like whether or not this e-commerce thing was really working out for me. 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:33.840 Like I was I was making enough to make a living, but I wasn't making enough for me to quit school. 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:38.639 And so there's always that idea of if this doesn't go well, because like who knew, right? 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.039 Like I I didn't prepare to go into e-commerce. 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:44.960 I was preparing to become a doctor, which thankfully I didn't, because I'll be a terrible doctor. 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:45.360 Yeah. 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.080 Um, so I was doing schooling in in between. 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:51.439 And while I was scaling my e-commerce store, I was like, you know what? 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:56.000 If I make enough money to basically pay myself a year's salary, I'll just quit school. 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:00.000 And once I did that, I remember it was December 3rd, 2016. 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.960 I was taking my finals, and that day I did nine thousand dollars in revenue. 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:07.599 And I said, Well, what am I doing in school? 00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:09.360 Like I'm clearly not cut out for this. 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:09.759 Yeah. 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:11.759 So that next day I didn't go back to school. 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:13.840 I withdrew and you just withdrew. 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:14.159 Yeah. 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:15.599 Your parents must have hated that. 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:16.399 They didn't know. 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:16.959 Okay. 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:17.920 How did that work? 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:20.480 My parents thankfully were always very supportive. 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:20.879 Okay. 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.279 And they trust that I will make the right decisions. 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:27.439 And so I told them that I left school after I made the money that I made. 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:27.839 Yeah. 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:29.519 What did you do with these businesses? 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.800 Like the coloring book, you know, all that at the end of the day, what happened to them? 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:33.120 Yeah. 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:40.800 So 2016 I started this coloring book called The Meme Bible, which is basically a pastime activity book of the best memes of the internet. 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.639 And so back in the day, I was running a number of blogs on the internet call. 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.000 They're there's Tumblr blogs. 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.879 And basically I was posting a lot of comedy posts, a lot of meme posts. 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:55.680 And so I said, uh, let me just take these trending topics like slangs, like Trump memes, whatever memes there are, and putting it into a coloring book. 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:57.279 And that became the first one. 00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:58.720 And I did four more years of that. 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:02.399 So I ran that for four years up until I think 2019, 2020. 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:03.839 Eventually I sold that business. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.040 But while I was running the coloring book, I also launched a board game. 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:08.560 I launched a candle company. 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:11.040 I launched a bath on company all within the same theme. 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:12.560 And that company was called Think Tink. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:13.839 How old were you at this time? 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:14.480 18. 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:16.319 How does an 18-year-old do that? 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:24.160 Just like I think I know the answer because I've also done similar in my life, but just for the audience, like how does an 18-year-old I mean it seems like a lot. 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:30.560 I mean, you're making it seem very casual, but i is that because you were from Hong Kong and had the resources in, say, China, or like what was your edge? 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.399 I think being Chinese definitely helps. 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:32.959 Okay. 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:35.279 I knew where a source of products from overseas. 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.519 I fly to China to like find my manufacturers. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.399 I at first I went to Alibaba, but eventually I flew back here. 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:41.279 But I don't know. 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.600 There was just like something in me that I knew how to sell. 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:44.720 I knew how to make products. 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:46.399 Like I knew how to make things with my hand. 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:52.560 And so, like when I think about a product, I can just conceptualize it in my mind and I know exactly what I need to do to create it. 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.560 When you say you sold it, obviously you don't need to get into too much detail, but like to who? 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.399 You know, it was it a was it a big sale? 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:01.839 Was it something where you just like wanted to get it off your hands and you could be free? 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:02.959 I just want to get it off. 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.600 I was kind of tired of running the meme company. 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:07.920 Like after four years of it, I'm like, is this my legacy? 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.759 It's like, is this one I want to do for the rest of my life? 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.079 I sold it to another friend that wanted to operate it. 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:13.839 And after they bought it, they didn't operate it. 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:14.959 So it they closed it down. 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:17.680 They the brand closed it down, but it was a meaningful exit for me. 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:20.800 And I took that time to really think through what I wanted to do next. 00:06:20.879 -->

00:06:23.680 And that's when I thought about the next brand, which is Dough Beauty. 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:25.199 That was started around 2019. 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:28.240 It was basically an eyelash company made for Asian eyes. 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:34.000 And at the time of me starting that, there wasn't really a lot of options in the United States for makeup for Asian eyes. 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:39.519 And, you know, I think there was a lot of tailwind around a time with K-pop coming up, right? 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:46.000 With a lot of um Korean beauty coming up in the United States, just a lot of tailwind that allowed me to have that opportunity. 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:52.319 And so a lot of people were welcoming makeup, lashes and hair and nails, but targeting the Asian audience. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.720 So I did that for about seven years. 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.800 So all of this eventually leads you at some point into packaging. 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:00.240 I've heard about you. 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:07.439 You know, like like we have mutual friends, we discuss that, and you've always come up in conversation as like the packaging guy. 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.600 But I guess before we get into that, like why packaging? 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:18.240 How did you stumble on to that within this e-com journey of starting brands for however many years, decade plus? 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:18.639 Right. 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:19.839 It leads to packaging. 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:21.439 What was that inception? 00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:28.079 So if we're really going back to the first point, while I was running my consumer brands, I was also helping friends out with sourcing overseas. 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.959 I have friends and be like, hey Jason, can you help me find a supplier for this? 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:32.079 Can you help me do this and that? 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:39.600 And it got to a point where I was like, you know what, there clearly is a large amount of demand for people looking to source overseas, but they're just having a lot of difficulties doing so. 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:41.360 And I grew up in Hong Kong. 00:07:41.439 --> 00:07:44.079 I left to America when I was eight, so I spoke a little Chinese. 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.639 And so it took what little I had and I figured it out. 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:51.199 I launched a product company in China to help brands overseas develop products. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:53.360 And that became the company called Saucy. 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.720 And so in 2020, January 2020, I started Saucy. 00:07:56.959 --> 00:08:00.639 And so I had my consumer brand, the beauty brand, and I had Saucy side by side. 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.839 The consumer brand for Doe, I didn't raise any outside capital. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:11.839 And so my idea was I'm gonna start a service-based business, a sort sourcing business, to have enough funding to support my e-commerce business.

00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:13.600 So I was running those two at the same time. 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:20.879 I ran Saucy from 2020 to 2023, and around that time we were launching the product development services and we're also doing fulfillment. 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:24.240 So we're shipping products from China to the US for a lot of our brands. 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:29.439 As I was doing that, I realized that while it's a great cash flow machine, there wasn't a lot of things that we own, right? 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:30.480 Like we're just an agent. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.360 We're just a person who's making 5%, 10% in between. 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:33.600 Yeah. 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.759 We're just a person shipping something from China to the US. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.480 And eventually someone will try and squeeze that margin, take it back. 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:40.080 There's just not a lot of moat, right? 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:50.240 And so I got to think with my partners, uh, one of my partner named Sam, we're on a train from Guangzhou to our office in Fuzhou, and we're like, you know, I think we're getting squeezed. 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.799 Like there's a lot more new players in the game, and there's just not a lot of bright future for us. 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.039 What's that one thing that we can think about doing next? 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:01.519 And so during that three-hour train ride, we're just thinking, and I was like, you know what? 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:05.360 Every single brand that we work with always asks us to source packaging. 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:10.960 You know, every single person that we ship for, every person that we do product development for, packaging is a common denominator. 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:17.679 Every single brand on earth, it doesn't matter if you're selling a toothbrush or a washing machine, it comes in a box, it comes in a bag, it comes in a bottle. 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:22.240 So we were like, okay, let's try to think about how do we expand onto this business. 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.720 And so we went back and talked to my supplier who's been supplying me for the last seven years. 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:28.080 You were already buying from them. 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:28.480 Yes. 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:35.039 And I asked them this question, I was like, hey, how much of your business is done in the US and how much is it being done in the in the domestically? 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:35.360 Yeah. 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.519 And they said, well, we only deal with Chinese companies because we don't speak English. 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:40.720 We don't even have a website. 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:46.960 We have an Alibala shop that we pay a lot of money to maintain, but we just never really explore out the outside world. 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:54.399 And so what ends up happening is a lot of these trading companies in China will represent these factories to operate and sell to the

US. 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:56.879 And they'll take a large amount of margins on it. 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.360 And they take all these margins, they don't have a lot of power over pricing, over quality. 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.679 And so every single one of these consumer brands are just working with someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:13.840 So I went to the factory owner who have who I've had a really good relationship with, and I said, Hey, will you give me the chance to help represent you in the US? 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.559 And if I can grow your business by three times, get me the chance to buy a part of your company. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:19.679 And they said, sure. 00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:27.840 And so I picked up the phone, text it, call 50 of my friends who are in the e-commerce space because you know, when you're running a brand, you know other people running brands. 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:28.240 Of course. 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.360 So I was calling all my friends and I said, Hey, can I do your packaging? 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:32.720 Can I just give you a second quote? 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.000 Let me take a look at your pricing. 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:39.200 And I spent the next few months just auditing everyone's pricing, getting them samples, getting them quotes. 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:41.279 And that's how Pack and Duck really started. 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:46.720 We started off as a representative of a factory, and eventually we're able to buy a part of the factory. 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:51.200 Hey, I'm Anish, and I just want to quickly give you more context on the world of elevator. 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:57.200 Elevator goods is where we build our brands from the ground up, owning the product, operations, and growth. 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.519 Elevator Capital is where we invest in brands worth betting on. 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.200 Backing founders with capital, mentorship, and connections. 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:16.240 Elevator Talks is where we document it all, sitting down with operators who've actually done it, going deep on their frameworks, their numbers, and the decisions they made to move the needle. 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:23.360 Elevator Creators is where we help creators build brands, leveraging their audience and turning them into a real business. 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:27.679 The studio is our private members club with its first location in Oncom. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:32.480 Built for founders and operators who want to be around people building at the same level. 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:37.679 If you're building a brand and you want the systems and the playbooks to do so, you're in the right place. 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:39.679 Check the link in bio to learn more. 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:42.240 So, last but not least, thank you so much. 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:48.480 Please subscribe because that will help us a ton in getting you better guess and more wisdom and more value. 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:50.639 We really appreciate it and back to the show. 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.039 I want to talk about just like the packaging industry. 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:59.840 We spoke offline, but you know, one of the things that's stood out to me is that packaging as a category is very misunderstood. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:10.159 People don't really know where it's coming from, if they're buying direct, if their factory is basically buying it from another factory, who's buying it from another factory, the real margins of it. 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:16.240 Can you explain to me like the dynamic of packaging from your eyes as it stands before you sort of enter the conversation? 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:16.799 Right. 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:19.360 I often think that packaging is an afterthought. 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:21.039 A lot of people don't really think about that. 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:25.200 And they usually go to whoever's manufacturing their primary products to get the packaging. 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:33.679 So we talk to a lot of brands who are, let's just say, making earplugs or they're making supplements, and they'll go to the person who's making their earplugs and their supplements to get the packaging. 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.000 And it's because it's so easy, right? 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.919 The person who's making these products typically have a lot of relationships with the packaging suppliers. 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:46.000 And so what they'll do is they'll merge that line item together and say, hey, I'm gonna sell your earplugs for let's just say five dollars. 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.000 And inside you don't really know about five. 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:49.440 You don't know. 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:49.679 Yeah. 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:56.080 And they could charge you 40%, they could be a great person and charge you 5% or even none, which is very rare, impossible. 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:57.519 Um, but you just don't know. 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:58.799 There's no transparency in that. 00:12:58.879 --> 00:12:59.039 Yeah. 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.799 And you also don't have a lot of say in the quality in who they choose. 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:11.919 And so I think it's very much misunderstood in that people think that packaging just comes from one source, but really the person that's handling it is getting it from multiple sources. 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:21.840 When you look at the factory that you were working with, the one that you approached, big, small, medium, like what, you know, were they advanced in their capabilities? 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.000 Were they pretty small and growing? 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:25.360 Like, what was the dynamic there? 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.720 Because I have to assume that if you went and said, hey, let me, I mean, I work with Chinese factories a ton. 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:36.080 Like, it's not pretty common for someone to be open to you buying

into their business. 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:36.559 Yeah. 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:37.840 That's not a common dynamic. 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:38.879 No, not at all. 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.120 I mean, this all comes down to relationships, right? 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.279 Like, we've had these relationships for many, many years. 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:47.519 I was like great customers of theirs, and we, you know, break bread together. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:48.799 We know each other's families. 00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:52.559 And so, like, that really gave me the chance to have these several conversations with them. 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:58.960 Our factories that we bought into are typically in in like the small to medium size, but they have a lot of capabilities. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:04.559 And I know that with the right amount of optimization that I can bring in, they can be a great and stable factory. 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:10.480 And so I came in there and I optimized a lot of their processes, their internal processes, their uh production processes. 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.600 I integrate a lot of AI and technology into how they do things. 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:18.480 I can reduce their head count and have the same amount of great output, if not better. 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.320 And so I really went in from a different lens. 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:26.399 I kind of came in as like a like a consultant of here's all the things I would change and optimize, and I work with the owners to do that. 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.480 We invested additional money to buy new machineries, buy new buildings. 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:36.159 And so I really went in and helped them fix what they have right now and also put in the capital to expand it. 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.840 So I want I want to get into all of that, but just fast forward. 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:47.840 So you went in, you asked for sort of uh an opportunity with the ability to buy ownership as the token incentive. 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.159 Yeah. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:49.200 Where are you today? 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:51.200 So let's fast forward and then we'll cut back to the middle. 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:52.720 But like what is Pack Induct today? 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:54.559 Pack Induct today has four facilities. 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.360 So we did the exact same model with a plastics factory. 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:01.919 The first one we did was paper, paper, then we did plastic, then we did glass, and now we just did pouches. 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.960 So like protein bags and protein powders all come in pouches. 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:12.639 And the last three was a little bit easier than the first one because we basically had a case study of what we did with the first factory to showcase the last three. 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.960 And I'm actually going back to see them next week. 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:19.840 And every single time the conversation has been around how can we do more and how can we do more. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:27.840 And now the first conversation I've had with these factories were kind of like, yeah, like we'll we'll take you in as a partner, like we'll let you invest and we'll see what you guys can do. 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:34.240 But now they understand the volume and the and the demand that we can bring, and they're a lot more optimistic about the working relationships. 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:37.600 One thing that's um boggled me a little bit is you don't live in China. 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.039 Like I know you grew up in Hong Kong and we'll get to that, but you live in New York. 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:41.759 Why? 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:43.200 One, I I love New York. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:44.320 I think put that aside. 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:46.639 You know, obviously New York being the best city. 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:46.960 Yeah. 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:48.559 Put that aside, like strategically. 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.600 Strategically, a lot of our brands are in the United States. 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:54.639 So being able to go back between LA and New York helps a lot. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.480 So I'm more client-facing. 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.720 And my partners have two other partners that I brought into the business: someone that was in operations and someone that's in finance. 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:07.360 And they're the people that's in China helping me oversee the team, oversee their production. 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.919 It's only really because of having really good partners am I able to not be in China all the time. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:13.919 But I'll come back like three times out of the year. 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.480 So you're very much on the sales and marketing side. 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:18.960 You've got local partners in China. 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:19.440 Yeah. 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:20.399 Are they Chinese? 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:21.279 Yeah, they're Chinese. 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:22.960 They've been with me for at least 10 years now. 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:24.559 One of them's been with me for 11 years. 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:26.080 But explain to me the dynamic. 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.039 Are they young, old, somewhere in between? 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:30.480 Are they local Chinese? 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.840 Are they sort of expatied that sort of you imported them into China? 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:35.519 They're two very different characters. 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.919 So I have a CEO named Sam, Sam Lan. 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:40.720 He actually started off as my Alibaba agent. 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:41.200 Okay. 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:43.279 So for my first company, Trendy Co. 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:46.559 my clothing company, he was my agent on Alibaba. 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.399 And when he met me, he's 10 years older than me. 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:50.240 So he when he met me, he was 27. 00:16:50.399

--> 00:16:51.759 He's 37 now. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.600 He was just such a great guy. 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:56.559 He helped me even when I was ordering 100 units at a time. 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:56.799 Yeah. 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.799 When I came back to China and I needed help on anything, he was always there for me. 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.039 And he didn't make that much money back then. 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:04.319 But he took me out to dinner. 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:05.759 He like showed me a great time. 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.599 And so like I r really remember that. 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:12.160 And anytime I started a new business, I will always use him as my partner in those businesses. 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:13.680 And so he's been with me for 10 years. 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:21.680 He worked his way up from, you know, being kind of like an assistant and my sales assistant, and now being the CEO of the company, overseeing our entire office and our operations. 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:25.359 And then my other partner, my CFO, Jonathan, I've known him since high school. 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.880 And I used to be his supplier. 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:32.480 So when I was running my clothing company, he needed a clothing supplier for his school club. 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:35.359 And so we got connected to supply hoodies to his school. 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:43.359 And over time, he was just helping me with finances here and there because I was terrible with numbers and he was one of the smartest guys I know. 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:50.160 We recently brought him on, I think a year and a half ago, full-time into our company, but it's only because his parents didn't want him to work at a store-up. 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:53.039 And so we grew up in Canada together. 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.279 After college, he went on to work in banking and in IB and stuff. 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:06.319 And I was like, one day I'm gonna make you my co-founder, and one day I'm gonna pay you enough for you to leave your job for you to tell your parents that you have a stable job and you have greater upsides. 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.799 And so a year and a half ago, we finally got to do that. 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:09.440 Epic. 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.000 His parents definitely didn't really like me for a long time. 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.200 Yeah, I mean, I I I the dynamic I I understand. 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.720 Yeah, like why why leave a stable job to work at a startup that might fail? 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.519 Yeah, I mean I left my investment banking job as well at one point. 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.079 It was me. 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:23.920 I mean, my dad was literally like, what are you doing? 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:24.319 Yeah. 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:24.960 Are you sure? 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:26.240 Are you sure was the question? 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:26.880 You get it. 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:27.839 I do get it. 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.680 So none of these guys run the factory per se. 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:37.599 Basically, the original operating members or operators of that factory are still running the day-to-day. 00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:38.160 Yep. 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.039 And how involved are you in the factory itself? 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:47.599 Like I I'm asking this because again, someone who's also in this business grew up in Hong Kong, tangential to Chinese manufacturing. 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:50.240 Like I have a lot of friends that own factories. 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.359 They don't source, they own the actual brick and mortar. 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:55.680 Notoriously, factories are a terrible business. 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.000 Extremely competitive, race to the bottom. 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:00.480 Yep. 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:05.680 You know, high capex, changing technology means you have to constantly invest in new machinery. 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:06.000 Yep. 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:10.960 The platforms like Alibaba obviously going back to competition, notoriously low margin. 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.519 Worker rights in China are insane. 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:19.359 Many people don't know this, but like you can't fire people in China is a whole process around labor rights. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:20.960 And not to mention there's tons of holiday. 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.400 Well, yeah, there's a lot of holidays. 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:28.240 It's funny, people don't really think about this, but you know, there are holidays in China when you think about Golden Week and Chinese New Year, of course. 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:29.920 We just got out of a seven-day holiday. 00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:30.480 Exactly. 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:37.920 So I I wanted to ask you about like the business of factories because from my perspective, that's like a terrible place to be. 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:38.400 Yeah. 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.160 But you've clearly proved it out, and we'll get to how you've done that. 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:45.039 But what are your what's your POV on the business of a factory itself? 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.160 You're completely right that it's a terrible business to be in for the most part. 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:48.480 Yeah. 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.359 But the thing is like it's a necessary part of supply chain. 00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:54.079 Like you need factories, you need you need manufacturing. 00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:58.799 And I think that our edge isn't owning the biggest factor or owning as many factories as possible. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.599 Our edge is that we're able to make factories more efficient. 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:03.839 We're able to get them a lot more demand and volume. 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:06.400 And then we're able to leverage our technology, our media. 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:10.880 We have a whole content team that's getting a lot of demand from our customers on social

media. 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:17.519 Like we can bring in a lot more value to these factories that makes them more competitive so that we don't have to compete to the race to the bottom. 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:20.319 You're not focused on running the factory. 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.279 You're focused on adding value to the factory. 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.400 You're coming in and saying, hey, I'm Jason, I'm 29. 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:27.680 I understand social media. 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:28.799 I understand AI. 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.759 You don't know the first thing about this, but you do know how to run the factory. 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.240 So you do that and trust me to sort of add value. 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:34.640 Yep. 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.359 So the factory owners that we work with are great operators. 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.119 They've been around for our paper factory has been around for 17 years. 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:43.440 Our plastics factory has been around for 35 years. 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.640 Like they've been around for quite a long time and they do great work. 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:48.960 But like you said, the competition is fierce. 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.240 Everyone's just trying to be a cent cheaper than the next person. 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.880 And so I didn't want to be racing to the bottom. 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:56.559 I don't need to run the best factory. 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:58.240 I need to run the most efficient factory. 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.920 And so I think the ability to run the most efficient factory is two things. 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.559 Two leverage thing you do, increase revenue and lower capex. 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:09.119 If you can just do those two things and you can still produce great products, you have yourself a great business. 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:25.599 One thing I also love about I think your, I think from what what I know, your model is because you've quote unquote added a brand to your factory that's western-facing, that's Googleable, that has SEO, that has social media, that has a website and a logo, you can charge a premium. 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:31.440 You know, again, if you go to a factory that's got none of those things, you assume they're cheaper. 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:31.839 Yeah. 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:40.319 Whereas one that's got this premium brand, again, just being an operator myself, knowing the space, like if there's a factory that looks good, they're definitely charging you more. 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.599 That being said, they also are more Western facing. 00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:43.759 Yeah. 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:45.680 Therefore, people probably speak English. 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.960 They're probably more accommodating to Western standards or culture. 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:49.680 Is that fair to say? 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:55.039 I think that's fair to say, but our pricing is typically on par, if not cheaper,

than most factories. 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.039 And there's reasons why we're able to do that. 00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.519 Because we have that branding, in theory, we could charge more. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.319 But our whole model is we will only be a good partner for you if we're able to save you money. 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:07.839 So on average, we save our customers about 15 to 20% on their costs. 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.799 So saving money is still a key factor here. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:16.559 And we're able to do that because we have a much lower overhead than a lot of our c counterparts in the US. 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:18.240 We basically have no marketing costs. 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:19.279 We don't have a marketing team. 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:20.000 We have a content team. 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:20.880 We have a content team. 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:21.200 Yeah. 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.279 So our main way of getting clients is word of mouth and just do a content. 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.920 But typically factories don't have marketing budgets, right? 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.319 With the exception of maybe the a booth at the Canton Fair. 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:30.480 Yeah. 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:31.039 Or whatever. 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:33.519 Each of these booths are 150K each, right? 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:34.559 Like we don't spend any money on the code. 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:35.119 You don't do that. 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.720 You don't do any trade shows. 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:37.039 No. 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:37.599 Zero. 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:40.559 It's funny because uh factory content on TikTok has exploded. 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:40.880 Yeah. 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:43.359 I mean the The sign guy, the engine girl. 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.200 Yeah, the aluminum lady, aluminum. 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:46.000 Yeah. 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:47.759 Like that has popped off. 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.640 And so what is that strategy done for you? 00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:52.799 We don't really do a lot of factory content. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:56.000 We actually do a lot of breakdowns of how different brands make their packaging. 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:02.000 We do a lot of you know deep dives into how Tiffany gets their blue and how do we make that blue consistent in in every single packaging. 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:03.440 So we'll go a little bit more technical. 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:04.799 We'll do a lot of brand breakdowns. 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:10.000 We don't film a lot inside our factories because I I feel like those type of contents are already existing. 00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.160 There's a ton of factories that do content like that. 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:12.480 Yeah. 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:18.240 Our best way to do content is just to educate people rather than just show them how things are made. 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:18.880 Yeah. 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:22.559 And I want to go through like the the value add that you guys have done. 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:24.000 So obviously there's content. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.960 You talked about generally turning it into a media company, which I assume is tied hand in hand. 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:30.880 The AI elements, like what is that? 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:37.839 Like what what exactly in in as much detail as you can share when you say you're bringing AI process to a factory, like in what capability? 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:38.480 Yeah. 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.160 So there's a few things. 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:51.039 And the hardware side, we're leveraging AI to install cameras in our production processes to identify defects a lot faster than back in the day when you do QCs of factories all hand done. 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:56.799 So now we have cameras in our production line to just snap, um, see any scratches, see any discoloring issues. 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:58.880 So that's one part on the production side. 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:06.880 On the sales and internal admin side, we we leverage AI to help our team do sales better, better outreach, better client management, better comps. 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:07.359 Awesome. 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.359 We're using AI to build softwares for any needs that we need almost immediately. 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:14.480 So rather than trying to buy off-the-shelf software, we're building things in-house. 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.440 Things like our CRM or ERP are all done in-house. 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:23.359 And so we can tweak that software to do exactly what we need, very specific to our business workcases. 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.640 And then on top of that, we're using AI to create a lot of our content. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.720 So every single piece of content that's on our social media right now is AI content. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.799 It's my voice clone with AI. 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:34.640 It's my avatar clone with AI. 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:43.039 The B rolls we take from wherever we can on the internet, and then our editors are still editing properly, but we don't use any AI to edit yet because they don't really do it that well. 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:50.319 We're using AI to create something that I'm very excited about that we're launching next year, which is AI agent specifically for client management. 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:50.640 Yeah. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:57.759 So right now, a lot of the work that you have to do is you have to talk to your suppliers on WhatsApp, on WeChat, on email, a lot of spreadsheets. 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.160 There's just a lot of back and forth to do something simple. 00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:02.720 And we believe in building something like a muse, right? 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.519 Or like an instinct, but specific to packaging. 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.119 We're calling this agent Ducky. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.400 You can text Ducky and say, hey, I want to place an order for

5,000 boxes of my Earplux case. 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.640 And like, here's the designs that we need, here's the dimension. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:16.319 Can you like create an RFQ for me? 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:22.640 And it'll automatically go and email our factory through the MCPs that we're gonna create, and it'll create a RFQ. 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.480 We'll give you the quote back, everything will be sent uh stored in a centralized database. 00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:28.720 So you can just be like, hey, how much did I pay last time? 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.240 Can you just place a reorder for me? 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.519 Or um can you clone this into a second colorway and make a different skew? 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:38.720 So you can just work with our instinct agent or instinct-like agent and do things a lot faster than right now. 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:39.440 Insane. 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:46.960 When you look at the broader landscape of factories in China right now, would you say that many or most are doing work like that? 00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:52.319 I mean, obviously China's insanely advanced in AI, you know, at the same level as the US, I would argue. 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:52.720 Yeah. 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:55.759 Is that a common initiative that you're seeing on the factory level? 00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.839 Because obviously big tech is big tech, but at the factory level, are you seeing that no? 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:00.880 Yeah, I'm not either. 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:01.359 No. 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:07.039 And that's why like I think our value add to these factories is that we're able to move at a speed of flight. 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.240 We're a lot more agile. 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:12.559 When you're running your own business, you're very tunnel vision into doing the things that you're supposed to do. 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:14.480 You don't really understand a lot of your blind spots. 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:15.680 You don't know what the leaks are. 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:22.720 And so, like on the surface, it's like, yeah, Jason's just running a factory that is, you know, adding value but not really changing anything about production. 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:33.279 But like in reality, we're doing so much more in improving the business model of the factories that allows them to compete on an international stage than just being one of 10,000 factories on Alibaba. 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:34.720 We don't need to be on Alibaba. 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:37.759 Like, I my entire business can run without ever touching Alibaba. 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:37.920 Yeah. 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.160 We never have to go to Canton Fair. 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.000 We have never sent an outbound email. 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:47.839 Like our business can do nine figures a year without doing anything that factories typically have to do right now. 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:49.599 And that's why we're competitive. 00:26:50.000 -->

00:27:00.799 The reason I was well, one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on is just like the decision-making process that you had, which I think is very inspirational for a lot of the people who watch this show. 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:05.359 Our demo is literally founders or aspiring founders, people in the industry. 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.559 You could have easily kept going with your brands. 00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:26.720 You could have grown those, scaled those, launched new ones, but instead you took this completely different direction, which 1%, if not less, people would do, which is saying, you know, forget that I'm gonna go into a layer, a deeper layer in the operating stack on the China level. 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:26.880 Yeah. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.160 I'm gonna get involved on the supply chain side with ownership. 00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:37.759 You know, when you go to a conference, and we'll talk about like some of your sales initiatives as well, 99 people in the room are a brand. 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:39.440 There's only one packaging guy. 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:39.839 Yeah. 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.759 And I'm just curious, like, it seems like that just happened very naturally. 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:55.039 But when I look at, if I talk to any other brand owner and I said, hey, you should consider buying your factory or getting involved in supply chain as as your business, again, 99% of people are like, hell no. 00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:55.279 Yeah. 00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.920 I mean, even if you look at the biggest of the biggest, Apple. 00:27:58.000 --> 00:27:58.079 Yeah. 00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:59.440 Apple doesn't own their factory. 00:27:59.599 --> 00:27:59.839 No. 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:00.319 Right? 00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.720 I mean, they they outsource to Foxconn and you know all their other operating partners. 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.279 And they've never, you know, if you if you read the history of Apple, they've never wanted to buy their factory. 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.279 Obviously, they're at the scale where they could, but they don't. 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:11.599 Yeah. 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:13.119 Because they just want to outsource that. 00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:16.559 So yeah, I just think it's like a challenging thought process that you just did. 00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:18.400 It's a whole separate business. 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:25.680 And it's also why like a lot of e-commerce brands, their first pivot or not pivot, their next expansion is typically doing their own 3PL. 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:30.079 Like most e-commerce brands, once they get to a certain stage, they're like, well, I don't need to hire a 3PL. 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:31.519 Why don't I just do in-house fulfillment? 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:34.319 And then they realize that that's a complete different business. 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:40.720 You have a warehouse, and and we've done this before when I was at another beauty brand,

we had our own warehouse with 45 some employees. 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.880 You have OSHA, you have safety, you have so much compliance you have to go through. 00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.559 And it's a complete different business that you have to run on top of your e-commerce business. 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.519 It just doesn't make sense. 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:54.160 I think for me, like why I got into packing duck was because I saw that problem firsthand. 00:28:54.480 --> 00:29:03.599 Like I knew how big of a pain in the butt it was to work with suppliers overseas and how much like the lack of transparency there was in how things were made and how pricing is done. 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:07.119 And I just knew how frustrating it was for me to be on the other side of this. 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.640 And so I was like, you know what? 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:14.400 I feel like I have a unique opportunity and a unique position to really make something different, to do something better. 00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:16.319 And that's how Pack and Deck was created. 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:21.039 And that's how Vince and Daniel did econflows because they've done dropshipping for so many years. 00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.440 And they're like, well, I feel like that model is broken. 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:24.559 Let's just make econflow. 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.960 When you looked back, you would ask your factory partner that you knew. 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:31.599 You said you broke bread with him, you had a very close relationship. 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:32.480 What if he had said no? 00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:35.680 I guess what I'm asking is, was that the core reason you were able to do this? 00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:41.519 If he had said no, would you have gone to another factory partner and built a new relationship so that you could do this? 00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:42.319 Potentially. 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:44.720 I mean, if they said no, things will look a lot different. 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:51.039 We're very, very fortunate that a big part of our success is because the people around us believe in this and want to just ride with us. 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:52.960 If they said no, I'll probably keep trying. 00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.880 Uh keep trying, maybe with another partner. 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:56.799 But I just knew that this model could work. 00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:06.960 I just knew that these people do great work, they have great output, and that if they just had an extra layer of value that we can add to it, that they can be and very, very competitive business. 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:09.359 I want to talk about doing business in China. 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:20.640 Again, we spoke about this offline, but one of the things that I want to demystify for everyone is just China in general coming, not just to Hong Kong, but going to mainland, doing business. 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:27.440 You know, we spoke about this, but in our studio here, people come from all over the world, you know, to do business in China, but they always start in Hong Kong. 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:27.680 Yeah. 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:34.240 You know, they take their cafe flight, they spend a couple of days in Hong Kong just to like sort of level set, and then they go into mainland. 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:40.400 A question I get all the time, literally all the time, frequently, is do you have any tips for doing business in China? 00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:45.119 For example, someone from Spain comes to Hong Kong, they're meeting their supplier for the first time. 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:46.240 Should I bring a gift? 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.440 You know, like what if I don't want to eat the food on the table? 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:52.079 You know, should I let them eat first or I eat first? 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:52.480 Yeah. 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.680 I'm not asking for nuances, but I'm I'm just curious, like, what's it like for you doing business in China? 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:04.079 You have such a unique POV of someone who grew up in Hong Kong but lives in New York, the east and west connection is like very natural for you. 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:06.799 But if it wasn't natural, what's your POV? 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:08.240 I think it's such a good question. 00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:15.039 And it's so important to have a conversation about that because everyone comes to China to do business without understanding how to do business in China. 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.880 In China, it's 1,000% the personal relationship, right? 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:31.359 I know that there are certain clients I work with who don't place as big of an order with me compared to our biggest clients, but I have a better relationship with them and I'm more flexible with them because of the relationship that we built because I know I can trust them. 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:32.960 It's a it's all about trust. 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.119 And so when you first come to China, I think there's different etiquettes to doing business in China. 00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:38.319 Like, yeah, you do bring a gift. 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:42.480 There's usually something that you do that will let them know that you respect them and you want to see them. 00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:44.400 You usually come with like a Chiam Yan Li. 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.680 It's like a greeting gift. 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:48.079 And at the dinner table, there's certain things that you can do too. 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.279 I actually recently saw this picture of Elon and Xi Jinping and and them eating dinner at the White House. 00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.480 And Elon just ate first before the guest of honor eating. 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.319 And it's almost like that's that's a big no-no. 00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:58.799 It's true. 00:31:58.880 --> 00:31:59.759 You you insane. 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:00.079 Yeah. 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:01.279 There's just certain

things. 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:07.440 And I actually have a little article I wrote about I think eight things to do at a dinner table for Chinese suppliers that you can use. 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:08.720 I'll I'll link it to you later. 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:10.240 I think that's very helpful to go through. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:12.960 What are some of them, not necessarily, but what are some of them? 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:15.039 For the first one, it's a seating arrangement. 00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:23.039 So typically the the seat that's facing a door is reserved for the guests of honor and for like the high the, you know, the person that they want to take out to dinner. 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:26.960 But you don't go to that seat immediately just because you know that's your seat. 00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:28.240 You let them guide you to it. 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:34.880 The other thing is where you race your glass, the person that races the highest ha usually has the highest honor. 00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:40.960 So when you when you cheer, when you say gumbe, you don't just immediately go above them and say that, oh, I'm bigger than you. 00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:44.880 There's usually a little bit of a dance of like, oh no, like you're the yours are guess of honor. 00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:46.000 You're our guest of honor. 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.240 Like, you know, cheers, cheers, cheers. 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:49.680 There's a little dance you gotta do with that. 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.720 There's um don't stick your chopsticks in the rice, obviously. 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:53.759 You you know that too. 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:59.680 There's a few more, but if you don't like to eat the food that they're gonna bring you, don't make a whole big thing about that. 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:00.960 You know, just eat what you can. 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:03.200 And if they want to say you're you're not feeling too well. 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:09.039 But in China, there is a little bit of a tradition where you know you're drinking with your suppliers, you're eating with your suppliers. 00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:14.400 I think that's a big part of building that trust and building that rapport with your suppliers that you just kind of have to dance through. 00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:14.880 Definitely. 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:18.799 I remember being 18, coming to China to see my supplier for the first time. 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:23.359 And, you know, sad to say I don't remember most of that night, but I you just had to sit through it. 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:23.759 Yeah. 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:26.799 Like that, that allowed me to build that rapport with them. 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.119 And I think age is a big advantage. 00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:34.400 Like when you're young and a lot of these suppliers are much older than you, they kind of want to take you under your their their wing. 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:41.039 Like if they know that you're a trustworthy person and you're gonna do great business, they'll they'll give you a lot more leeway and say, Yeah, you're just you're just young. 00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:43.279 Like, let me teach you, let me let me give you the ropes. 00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:47.839 And so I think being young was a advantage, but I didn't realize that until I was much older. 00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:48.319 Yeah. 00:33:48.480 --> 00:33:52.000 You know, China maxing right now is a clear trend on social media. 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:52.240 Yeah. 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.319 And anything to do with China, travel, robots, tech. 00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:01.759 There's so, so much content that's gone viral about cities like Chongqing and whatever, right? 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:04.240 Yeah. 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:12.400 And I guess again, going back to one of my earlier questions, it it really does feel like people want to do business in China, but they don't know how. 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:12.880 Yeah. 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:19.360 And then all of a sudden they just default back to selling in Western countries, especially the US, because it's easy. 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:19.679 Yeah. 00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:20.400 It's just easy. 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:20.880 Yeah. 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:25.119 Oh, the the big thing is like they try to take the dinner table as a negotiating table. 00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:27.360 That's you never negotiate the dinner table. 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:27.840 Yeah. 00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.800 That's uh that's uh, you know, the next day after dinner. 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:31.440 Exactly. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:33.840 Fun is for fun and then meet in the office. 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.079 Yeah. 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.639 That's a big mistake I see people make. 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:42.880 Like they think they're just gonna come here and they're just going to think they have leverage and they're just going to come in swinging hot. 00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:44.480 You never come in swing hot. 00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.360 There's a mutual respect that you have to establish first. 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.199 You eat, you break bread, you drink a little bit, and then you talk business the next day. 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:52.719 Yeah, or the day after. 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:53.039 Yeah. 00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:55.920 This is well said, and I would reiterate the same thing. 00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:57.360 Like Chinese people play the long game. 00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:57.760 Absolutely. 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.800 They are disciplined. 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:06.400 You know, if you look at policy that China puts out, they're talking five-year plans, they're not talking tomorrow. 00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.440 Uh it's it's extremely patient. 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:11.599 People don't understand that, um, but they should. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:16.639 Again, just going back to like people who want to do business in China, I genuinely think people don't understand how.

00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:16.960 Yeah. 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:18.239 Like what is the first step? 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:20.239 How do you open up a bank account? 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:21.199 How do you move money around? 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.800 I'm not asking for like a play-by-play, but just your overall POV on it. 00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:26.239 Is it something tangible? 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:30.400 Is it easy that you've kind of figured out, or is it still as complex as people think it is? 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:33.679 I think Hong Kong is like the best gateway for you to do business here. 00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:41.199 So start start like an HSBC bank here, you know, have multiple currency in your bank account and then just transact with your suppliers through your Hong Kong bank. 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.480 I think opening a bank in China is definitely a lot more difficult for foreigners. 00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:51.039 I thankfully have, you know, Chinese permits, travel permits, and have a Hong Kong passport, so things a little bit easier for me. 00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.199 But like I think for most people, Hong Kong is your best bet. 00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:53.599 Yeah. 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:55.119 Hong Kong really is the gateway. 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:55.440 Yeah. 00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:55.920 For sure. 00:35:56.239 --> 00:36:01.920 Anything on Packing Duck that we missed before we transition, like just the overall business where you're at. 00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.960 I even wanted to ask you, where where where are you five years from today? 00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.039 Like what is Packing Duck five, 10 years from today? 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:11.280 I think in five years we're we're gonna cease to be just a manufacturer. 00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:14.639 We're going to create something much bigger than just manufacturing. 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:18.480 What I want to create is a packaging standard for factories. 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:22.079 So a big inspiration that I draw from is the hotel industry. 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:26.559 So Hilton, Hyatt, Marriott don't own 99% of their hotels anymore. 00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:27.280 They used to. 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.599 They're all just flags that people fly. 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:39.280 And when you walk into a five-star hotel, a five-star Hyatt, and a five-star Marriott, you know that you can expect the same level of standard in Spain, in China, in the US. 00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.760 That standard doesn't really exist for factories. 00:36:41.920 --> 00:37:00.000 And so what we're creating right now is a standard for what a good packaging factor should be based on the machinery that we audit, based on their people, based on their trade history, based on their work output, based on their certifications, human rights working conditions, and create this standard that hopefully factories will adhere to. 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.519 And we're going to start with our own factories first to show the world what the levels of factories standards could be. 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:14.880 The second thing we're going to create is a platform that will be if you're a packaging factory that certify within our standards, you can be on these platforms. 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:25.519 And because we have an overflow of demand from our social media, from our from our marketing, we're going to flow, inflow all these demand into the platforms to showcase the factories that we have certified. 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:28.079 So that's one step that we're doing in within the next year. 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:39.599 The next thing that we're doing is we're going to create our AI agents and our own softwares for packaging factories to use because we have trained our own softwares with our own in-house data for so many years. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:45.760 We're able to create softwares that are very, very specific to our workflow that I think a lot of packaging factories can use. 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:51.199 A lot of these factories, if you really think about it in China, they're spun up by people who have never really gone to higher education. 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.719 They work their way up as a factory owner, or sorry, as a factory worker and then eventually as a factory owner. 00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:02.719 A lot of them don't really have the infrastructure and the architect of how well a factory can be ran. 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:14.800 And so we believe that by creating these standards and creating these factory softwares, we can standardize a lot of these workflows to make work easier for them, but also allow their customers to have an easier time to work with packaging factories. 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.400 So we're going to create the software layer first. 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.880 And then we're going to create, you know, the certification layer. 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:28.480 And then we're going to create the agent layer where people can work with their agents, you know, plug into Cloud, plug into OpenAI, and work with packaging factories directly within their terminals. 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:29.119 Damn. 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:29.440 Yeah. 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.039 So you've got a pretty big vision for this. 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:31.360 Yeah. 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:38.719 I mean, the on the certification level, what like what is the I mean, you're talking about creating like a BSR level certification for packaging. 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:39.039 Yeah. 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:44.400 Is the overall goal there just to bring in, I don't know what the word is, licensing revenue for that certification? 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:44.880 Yeah. 00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:54.639 So the way that we thought about it is we get about 100, 200 increase a week right now with virtually no marketing on just our own brand, our own pack and duck brand. 00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:00.960 And there's 70 some percent of the increase that we just cannot take

on because, you know, it might be too small for us, might be things that we don't make. 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.880 They might need something in the in Europe, but like we don't manufacture in Europe. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:11.199 And so our goal is to create this network of package pack and duck factories, kind of like how there's a network of myriad hotels. 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:11.440 Yeah. 00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:17.840 Where when you work with a pack and duck factory, you know that you can expect this level of quality, this level of communication, this level of pricing. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:22.400 So that we're no longer restricted by not having a factory in Romania and Poland and whatever. 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:24.639 It just unlocks your scale. 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:30.480 So when you work with a pack and duck factory, it could be a factory that we don't own, but it's within our network, it's been certified by us. 00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:34.159 You know it's a five-star factory because it'll meet all these checkpoints. 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.599 And you just know you can expect the same level of quality. 00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.039 It's just like when you walk into a five-star hotel here and a five-star hotel there, you know. 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:44.960 That doesn't really exist for patching factories yet. 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.400 I don't think that exists for factories. 00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:46.800 Yeah. 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:48.159 But I don't want to solve that problem yet. 00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:50.239 I want to solve this problem that we know we can solve. 00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.960 So that's really like the one-year vision of where we want to be. 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.519 It's like within the next year, we don't want to create that network. 00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:04.320 And then we're gonna create the software that will govern these factories, just like how when you go to a Marriott hotel and you manage one of the franchisees, there's internal systems to manage a Marriott hotel. 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:06.239 We're gonna create that system, but for factories. 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:07.360 Yeah, insane. 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:08.800 When do you feel the pressure? 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:22.480 I mean, uh, when you see brands scaling, we have so many mutual friends who are just pumping, you know, volume and the volume 10xs, then at 10x's again, then at 10x's again, and you're just like, Jesus, dude. 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:25.519 Like, I mean, packaging could easily be a bottleneck, right? 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:30.239 If you have finished goods, we don't have packaging, you could really screw someone's entire flow. 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:31.280 Do you feel that pressure? 00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:32.559 How how do you deal with that? 00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:33.599 Just get it done. 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:35.280 The pressures are every single day. 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:43.599 We've had customers who got into Target

and they want a PO done within the next six weeks, which is like production is already four weeks. 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:44.800 Shipping's got to take a week. 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.119 So, like, we're talking about really, really tight timelines here. 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:47.519 Yeah. 00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:48.960 And we have that quite often. 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:55.119 We have a lot of brands getting into Costco, into Walmart, and they just have these very, very unrealistic timelines that we will try to meet. 00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:56.639 We'll move mountains for them. 00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:59.280 But every single day there's always something happening. 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:00.880 Container gets stuck at the port. 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:02.159 We're gonna miss our PO. 00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:04.880 We're gonna um like, you know, shipping charges went up too high. 00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:06.159 We're gonna lose all our margins here. 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.840 Like every single day there's a new fire to put out, but that's part of the game, you know. 00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:11.519 If it's easy, everyone would have done it. 00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:11.920 Yeah. 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.559 I wanted to um pivot a little bit. 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:14.880 Yeah. 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:18.480 And I want to talk about just you as an entrepreneur. 00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:25.119 It's very rare, in my opinion, that you see someone start so young, 16, now you're 29. 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.000 You see it seems like you've accomplished insane feats. 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:31.360 You've probably come into a lot of cash or cash flow. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.119 Just like when you look back at the overall journey, how do you feel? 00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:36.800 What were the turning points? 00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:38.320 Just like at a high level. 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.519 I mean, it it's not common to have done this much at this age. 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:48.880 I mean, if you really zoom out of the last 13 years, you're gonna see the highest, highest peaks and the lowest, lowest valleys. 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.039 I've been near bankrupt twice. 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:55.360 And the most recent one was maybe right before I started packing duck. 00:41:55.679 --> 00:42:00.400 Like I I I was very, very close, maybe a day or two close from like filing for bankruptcy. 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:01.440 And actually. 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:02.239 Actually. 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:04.159 Yeah, like I had a conversation with my partner. 00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.280 I said, hey, like I I think like I might have to just call it. 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:10.000 And so business is extremely volatile as everyone else. 00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:11.440 That's what entrepreneurship is. 00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:16.320 And I think like most successful entrepreneurs, I've really asked them like what what really got them to this place. 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:17.920 It's

really about like surviving. 00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:22.239 You have to survive the really, really bad days, the really bad weeks, and really bad years. 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:27.119 And I've definitely had really good years and really really bad years that wiped out everything that happened the years before. 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:27.440 Yeah. 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:32.800 And so, yeah, I've come into a lot of cash at a very young age, and I've also lost all of it the next year. 00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:38.320 Because you you have the success and you take bigger bets, and sometimes the bigger bets don't pay off. 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:42.480 You know, in e-commerce, a lot of our money were being kept up in inventory. 00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:46.320 And so we'll expand into a new category where like, hey, you know what, we're doing really well in last year. 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:47.199 And buy a shitload. 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:49.039 Yeah, let's just buy a bunch of inventory. 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.079 And also we want to be launching new stuff. 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:59.039 So, like, instead of just buying more inventory for this existing skill that we know is doing well, let's also allocate money to buy new skill that we're gonna develop. 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:06.960 And the RD for that's gonna take nine months, and we're gonna pay a lot of money in in certifying it and insurance and legal bills, and they're just a bajillion things that you spend money on. 00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.079 And if that doesn't work out well, that's gonna set you back a year. 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:11.599 That might set you back two years. 00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:15.119 And if you're self-funded, we've never taken outside capital ever. 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:17.519 If that doesn't go well, we're screwed. 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:23.440 One of the questions, again, coming back to the studio, the people who literally work out of here, we have a a range of people. 00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:27.519 We've got people running nine-figure brands, eight-figure, seven-figure. 00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:35.760 We also have people that are pre-launch, you know, young kids who are just at an idea and they're, you know, showing up every day with their laptop trying to get started. 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.559 People always ask me, how do you start that process? 00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:41.920 You know, in hindsight, like it it seems like it kind of just happened. 00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.159 Yeah. 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.519 At least for me, you just every day you just do it. 00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:46.000 Yeah. 00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:52.320 But, you know, especially if you're bootstrapping it, you've not raised a dollar in outside financing or capital. 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.440 You need to somehow purchase that inventory or get started, start paying for subscriptions and softwares. 00:43:57.679 --> 00:43:59.519 If you had to do it again, like what would your process be? 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.239 Let's say you're Jason in 2026. 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:03.360 You're getting started. 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:03.679 Yeah. 00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:05.039 You want to get into the business. 00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:06.960 Like, are you going the e-commerce again? 00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:08.320 Are you going drop shipping? 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:13.360 Are you going straight into what you're doing now, which is trying to cut a deal with a factory and then bring sales to them? 00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:14.559 Yeah, definitely wouldn't do that. 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:17.920 I think like if I were to start an e-commerce again, uh, I would do drop shipping. 00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:19.360 I don't know how to do drop shipping. 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.199 I I've always been a drop shipping supplier. 00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:21.599 Right. 00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:24.320 Uh, and all my brands I fulfill out of my garage. 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:25.920 Like I literally pack my own orders. 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:27.440 I didn't know how to do drop shipping. 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:30.960 Uh so it's kind of funny that I became a drop shipping supplier before I did it. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:38.880 But I I do believe that you want to go for the lowest hanging fruit, something with the least amount of capital that you have to inject, and something that you can have proof of concept really fast. 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.119 And they're just no better model than dropshipping. 00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:51.119 I think dropshipping gets a lot of bad rep because of a lot of bad actors, a lot of people who do negative building, a lot of people who don't ship their orders, a lot of people who are just selling courses and and don't do anything. 00:44:51.199 --> 00:44:52.239 So it got a lot of bad rep. 00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:55.039 But I think as a business model, dropshipping is brilliant. 00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:00.639 Like if you can do it well, if you can do something like what Heroes is doing, what Dorian Rose is doing, it's brilliant, right? 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.920 Because you just don't have a lot of money that you're keeping into inventory. 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:10.639 You can use that budget towards growing the business rather than spending quarter million dollars in inventory that you might not sell for the next eight months. 00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:11.679 I couldn't agree more. 00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:15.199 I actually in sometimes I wonder why more brands aren't drop shipping. 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:15.599 Yeah. 00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.280 Because I think just to play it out, the pros and cons of drop shipping, right? 00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.960 The pros is of course the inventory risk is is zero. 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.800 The con is I think you're paying higher prices for the goods. 00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.400 Um the factory's taking a higher margin because they're they own it, it's on their balance sheet. 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:34.159 But if

it's too custom, they're just you you might have a really high MOQ anyways. 00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:40.239 The con the con uh yeah, lack of custom customization, lack of control, maybe slower shipping times. 00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:40.559 Yeah. 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:41.920 But that's not the NRB all. 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:50.159 I have one of my friend, one of my really good friends, Ishawn, and and his partner Zach and Dylan, who I was actually a supplier for when they first started their company. 00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:51.679 Um, they're selling hearing aids. 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:54.400 And their first business was actually drop shipping. 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:58.639 They're using it as a proof of concept to see if hearing aids was a good business to get into. 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.440 They're now a nine-figure brand, but they started off drop shipping. 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:02.960 How long did that take them? 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:04.000 Four years. 00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:04.880 That's insane. 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:05.360 Insane. 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:07.679 Nine nine-figure brand, no outside funding. 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:09.760 Yeah, and hearing aids is a technical product too. 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:12.800 It's not like uh it's not like you know buying a you know, whatever. 00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.079 Yeah, so the very first version was just for them to see if the market works. 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:22.800 Once they saw that the market reflected that there's a lot of demand for lower cost hearing aids, because most hearing aids were$2,000. 00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.360 Theirs were about$129. 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.360 And so they proved out that market. 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.800 They're like, okay, we we just now need to spend that money into engineering. 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.000 So they took the money that they made instead of just buying all the flashy things. 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:34.800 I know them very well. 00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:38.320 They spent all the money into engineering and creating their own patent. 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:43.760 So they now have their own engineering product and their own patent on a hearing aid that looks incredible. 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:49.679 And they're now in Costco, they're in Walmart, they are the number one best-selling product on QVC. 00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:49.920 Oh. 00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:51.679 And they all started from dropshipping. 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.280 I think that's one of the best case studies that I personally witnessed because I was their supplier. 00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.440 So like I think dropshipping is not the N all be all. 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:01.199 It could be the first stepping stone to prove out the market to have a proof of concept. 00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:04.000 And then if that works out well, it's spend the money to make a better product. 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:04.480 Yeah. 00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:11.599 Going back to coming into cash flow, one of the things that I've also learned about you is that you have a pretty big investment portfolio. 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:15.679 So someone like you who comes into cash flow, again, you're 29. 00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:17.679 I've seen both ends of the spectrum. 00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:25.679 I've seen people that come into cash and they say, hey, I'm dropping cash buying roleys and G-Wagons and all kinds of stuff. 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.880 I think the like the Dubai crowd really owns that. 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:29.119 Yeah. 00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:32.239 But it seems like you're far more proactive in other ways. 00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:35.920 So tell me about your investment portfolio, what you're up to there. 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:37.599 How are you sourcing deals? 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.079 How are you choosing between deals and so forth? 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:44.000 A lot of my deals came through because of an audience that I built online. 00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:50.239 And so back in 2020 during COVID, I was tweeting a lot about building my brand. 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:51.280 I was building in public. 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:54.559 There was a time when like no one wanted to talk about what they're building on the internet. 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:55.679 Yeah, they were too scared. 00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:57.280 Yeah, everyone's like gatekeeping what they're building. 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.559 No one will tell you what brands they're running. 00:47:58.639 --> 00:48:01.920 And so like I will literally just tweet about, hey, I'm starting dual lashes. 00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:02.880 Here's what I'm doing. 00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:04.320 Here's a landing page that I created. 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:05.360 Here's the offer of my test. 00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:06.559 Oh, I tested free shipping. 00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:07.280 I didn't really like it. 00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:09.599 I would I'll just tweet about everything that I was doing. 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:10.639 What year is this? 00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:12.239 2019, 2020. 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:12.639 Yeah. 00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:21.360 And slowly I built a small audience of people that want to see my journey, people that are supporters, people that just wanted to see what I'm up to, and people that want to learn. 00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:28.480 And through that opportunity, I was able to get connected to a lot of great founders developing softwares because all these software companies want to work with brands. 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:30.480 And so they're like, well, Jason's running a brand. 00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:32.239 Let me use them as our test subject. 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:35.760 So I was testing a lot of early softwares as a brand for free. 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:37.840 They gave me the free license to use. 00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.559 And in exchange, I just talked about it in my next tweet. 00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:42.800 Oh, I'm using Triple Well to do my analytics. 00:48:42.880

--> 00:48:45.119 I'm using this and that to send my SMS. 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:49.519 And because of those relationships, and like I said, it's it all relationships, right? 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:52.639 Because of those relationships, I was able to get the opportunity to invest. 00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:56.559 And thankfully, I was able to do a mixture of advisory. 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.360 So I was helping these companies with their go-to-market strategies. 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:06.719 I help them create their, you know, buyer personas, like what kind of brands should they go after, how to sell to those brands, because I can speak from it from a brand's perspective. 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:12.480 So I'll get advisory shares, but I'll also get the opportunity to, you know, invest into their C round, their Series A. 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:14.239 And that's how the portfolio got started. 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:17.440 So in the portfolio now, how many businesses? 00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:19.119 35, 36. 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:20.960 And this is its own entity, right? 00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:22.000 This is Puck House? 00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:22.719 Yeah, Puck House. 00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:23.280 Pughouse? 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:23.519 Yeah. 00:49:23.760 --> 00:49:26.159 What's the recurring theme, by the way, side note with the animals? 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.079 Pug, uh, duck. 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:35.920 There was a time many, many, many years ago where to make money, I would sell Instagram usernames. 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.000 Like this is when I was a kid, teenager. 00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:41.599 And like this is back when usernames weren't really that valuable. 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:44.320 Like you can buy a username for a few hundred dollars. 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:44.719 Yeah. 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.440 And the names that I would sell were all animals. 00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:53.760 So I sold, you know, bear, seal, salmon, penguin, like all these animal names. 00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:54.320 I don't know why. 00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:55.760 I just like like the animal names. 00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:58.159 And I kind of looked at the names kind of like domain names. 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:00.400 Like I saw how expensive web domains were. 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.280 Like WWE thought one word name were going for. 00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:07.039 And I was like, I think Instagram's gotta be like the next frontier for domain names. 00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:08.800 Like it's billion users. 00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:09.599 It has to be. 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:11.519 And so I kept Pug for myself. 00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:12.639 That was the one I wanted. 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.199 Not because I like Pugs, but because it was just really short. 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:16.639 It's the three letters. 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:16.880 Yeah. 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:17.519 It's sick. 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:19.760 So I kept that and kind of became my identity. 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:27.599 And then as I was creating my other businesses, I just thought that having a mascot will be a nice touch to being more memorable. 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:32.480 And so Pughouse is basically an evolution of my first company name called Wonghouse. 00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:36.639 Wonghouse was basically my holdings company for all my investments and all my all my businesses. 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:43.360 Because when I was building e-commerce brands, it didn't make sense to create a new LC for every single idea because they might just fail, right? 00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:45.119 Creating an LC cost$800. 00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:47.440 I was launching two, three brands a year. 00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:49.280 It didn't make sense to create new LC. 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:52.480 So I had one entity that would just launch and incubate brands in. 00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.519 And once they did well, I you know spun them out into their own entity. 00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:57.360 So Wonghouse was the main company. 00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:58.480 And then I was like, you know what? 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.440 People kind of know me as Puck House, so or as Pug. 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:03.280 So I'm gonna change the name to Puck House. 00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:04.480 So that's how it came to be. 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:10.079 Pack and Duck came through because um of the dish Packing duck, you know, from Beijing. 00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:13.760 And I love playing um on words with all the names. 00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:15.280 And so I was like, you know what? 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:18.800 Packing Duck sounds kind of cool, it's memorable, it's brandable. 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.199 Most packaging factories don't really have a cool name. 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.280 So I created a whole brand identity around that. 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:25.599 Also kind of inspired by like how Triple Well did. 00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:30.159 Like by the time we launched Pack and Duck in 2023, Triple Well was already up and running. 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:32.159 And so they definitely was an inspo for me. 00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:33.679 Yeah, I love their world logo. 00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:41.119 It didn't make sense to me at first, but the the reason for that is because there's three founders of Triple Well and they were previously dabbling in crypto. 00:51:41.679 --> 00:51:42.719 I actually did not know that. 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:43.760 That's the lore. 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:50.800 So okay, and so just to round this out, so you've got Pughouse, you're invest you've now invested in 30 plus companies. 00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:52.719 What percent of your time is this? 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:56.639 You know, basically sourcing deals, doing diligence. 00:51:57.039 --> 00:51:57.679 So little. 00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:58.559 One percent? 00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.360 Yeah, so little. 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:01.599 Like all the 30 businesses is a lot. 00:52:02.079 -->

00:52:09.920 So you know, you're saying it's one percent of your time, but that's actually it's uh, you know, you're still deploying capital, it's still a lot of companies that you've done somewhat of some amount of diligence or conversation with. 00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:10.400 Yeah. 00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:13.760 I mean, but like we're it's not like we're in we're throwing like 500k into these deals. 00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:15.519 Like each of these deals are like angel checks. 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:15.679 Right. 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:18.639 Like they're anywhere between like 50 to 75k per check. 00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:19.039 Okay. 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:21.679 And so I don't do a lot long due diligence. 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.000 I call the founders, I meet them in person if I can. 00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:25.199 If I like them, I put the money in. 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:26.079 That's it, quick. 00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:33.199 Oftentimes the ideas that they are like the the businesses I invested in, the ideas are completely different from when I invested in them. 00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:35.039 But I know that the founders are great. 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:38.639 I know that they're going to build great businesses, and if they need a pivot, they'll they'll pivot. 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:39.920 Yeah, you always bow on the horse. 00:52:40.159 --> 00:52:40.239 Yeah. 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:43.840 I this is actually for my own I'm like seeking advice on this myself. 00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:50.159 We've got elevator capital, you know, because of the reach we've established recently with the podcast. 00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:51.920 Like we have a lot of deal flow coming our way. 00:52:52.480 --> 00:53:01.519 And I genuinely sometimes don't know how to filter through these deals just because notoriously the liquidity in these businesses is not the best. 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:08.800 You know, I I know you veer a little bit towards software, probably more liquidity, especially as you go venture, there's different rounds. 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:09.119 Yeah. 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:12.400 But in e-commerce, like it's not e-commerce is tough. 00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:17.199 I mean, the the chance of survival in the e-commerce space is so, so low. 00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:19.920 And it's not a good cash flow business. 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:24.880 It's typically not a good sector to invest in, but it's the sector that I understand the most. 00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:26.480 And I feel like I have a lot of leverage. 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:31.039 Like you just understand and like you know how to help them if they need growth, if they need investment. 00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:32.800 Like we have a lot of resources there. 00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:35.599 But to be honest, it's one of the worst sectors to invest in. 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:41.039 And so I balance my portfolio to be majority software, and then the rest are like consumer brands. 00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:42.079 I just like

the founders. 00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:43.199 I I want them to succeed. 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:48.559 If they want to go into Walmart, I have a guy at Walmart can call, like, I I can kind of pull strings for those type of brands. 00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:48.960 Yeah. 00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:56.480 Um, last week we just launched our new fund called Duck DuckGoose, DDG Capital, um, under Pack and Duck, and that's to invest into our own clients. 00:53:56.719 --> 00:53:57.679 I was gonna ask you about this. 00:53:58.079 --> 00:53:58.320 Yeah. 00:53:58.400 --> 00:53:59.280 Okay, so tell me more. 00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:00.639 So it's a new fund. 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:02.960 We have two two checks that we wrote already. 00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:09.360 But basically, at Pack and Duck, we get a lot of deal flow because we work with a lot of brands that are, you know, early stage. 00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:13.360 They might have some traction already, they might need more capital to expand to retail. 00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:20.960 And so I feel like from our perspective, we can kind of see how well a brand's doing based on their PO sizes and their and the velocity of the POs. 00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:21.920 Yeah, you have all the data. 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:23.119 Yeah, we do. 00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:33.360 And um, we we know the founders well, we work with them, we know how they are in practice because we work them so much that I'm once again betting on the horse, but also betting on the sector and betting on their velocity. 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.639 And so we started that fund purely just to invest into the clients we work with. 00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:44.079 Sometimes I find that with businesses that are doing so well, like you're seeing their orders increase astronomically, they don't need the money. 00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:45.679 Obviously, they're doing so well. 00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:46.159 Yeah. 00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:51.039 You know, I think e-commerce mostly nowadays, like talking 2026, are profitable. 00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:51.440 Yeah. 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:58.000 I mean, the gone are the days where you burn cash and hope for some sort of like venture round in e-commerce. 00:54:58.159 --> 00:54:58.400 Yep. 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:01.039 Why do these brands want to take your money? 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:05.920 They want a supplier, they want someone that in their supply chain that they can depend on. 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:08.559 Are you offering better terms in exchange? 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:09.840 Typically better terms. 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:11.840 We'll lower our internal margins a little bit. 00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.760 We we'll assign like additional people on our team to get into their accounts. 00:55:16.079 --> 00:55:20.960 So you're basically saying, hey, take our capital, but in exchange, yeah, we're also giving you better terms, better support. 00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:22.960 We're gonna do everything we can to make this easier for you. 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:24.880 Because at the end of the day, you have ownership of the business. 00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:26.159 So you've done two deals so far. 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:26.480 Yeah. 00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:27.039 Awesome. 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:32.719 One of the things you mentioned to me a little bit earlier was that this is the greatest time to build anything. 00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:35.599 What is your POV in a little bit more depth? 00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:37.679 I think it's an obvious statement, to be honest with you. 00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:44.400 Like everyone would say that with the onset of AI or SI nowadays, is what Trump's calling it. 00:55:44.639 --> 00:55:45.039 Why? 00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:47.760 And more importantly, how do you build? 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:50.880 Like if it's the greatest time to build, like what does that really mean to you? 00:55:51.119 --> 00:56:03.119 I think the playing field has been leveled, at least from you know, when I started and in any sector, like in e-commerce, when I first started, the playing field was not as level as five years after when everyone can run Facebook ads. 00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:10.400 Like back when I first started, it was whoever had the most amount of money to invest into the branding, into your designers, into your team, into marketing. 00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:13.119 And then eventually content came through with TikTok. 00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:17.280 So like if you can just make really good content, you don't need to spend$20,000,$30,000 on ads. 00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:23.840 And eventually now with AI, like if you can use AI, you can build one-person e-commerce teams, whereas previously you would need 10. 00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:27.519 And so over time, things have just been a lot more leveled. 00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:33.679 And so you need just a lot less resources or at least external resources to accomplish the same amount of output. 00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:37.840 I'm personally very optimistic and feel like this is the greatest time to build because of that. 00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:43.760 Because I feel like nowadays, when everyone has those tools, it's really about who is the most creative. 00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:50.000 It's not whoever has the most amount of money, who has the biggest team, it's who's the most creative and can think through the problems that they want to solve. 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:52.079 This is exactly how I feel too. 00:56:52.159 --> 00:56:59.119 I was like literally gonna, you took the words out of my mouth because I think you can tackle any problem nowadays or most problems. 00:56:59.679 --> 00:57:02.400 The question is like, how do you think about the problem to tackle? 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:02.800 Yeah. 00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:08.960 You know, you have to have that creativity to say, I'm going to create a certification layer for Chinese packaging factories. 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:10.719 Like nobody thinks about that stuff. 00:57:10.960 -->

00:57:17.199 So I don't know if there's like a perfect answer to this, but how do you, you know, your your creativity, your inspiration is that innate? 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.719 Where do you source that level of thought or inspiration from? 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:22.960 Dude, I like I said, I don't have a good answer for it. 00:57:23.039 --> 00:57:24.880 It's not like there's books or a course I took. 00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:26.639 I didn't learn any of this from college. 00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:31.280 Like I I went to college for one semester for general education. 00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:36.960 I'm just a very observant person and I tend to break things down and break down the world around me. 00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:43.280 So I I take a lot of inspiration into like how other businesses are doing and I think about how I can apply that to my business. 00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:45.440 For example, a couple examples. 00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:50.800 I saw that Mercedes, whenever they launch a new car, they'll have the first 500 cars as a limited edition. 00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:55.199 And that first 500 cars will have a very special livery and very special packaging. 00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:58.639 And the people who really like Mercedes will buy those cars to collect. 00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:05.599 And so for my last company, whenever I launch a new SKU, the first 500 units is a complete different packaging that I launch. 00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:06.880 It's one of 500. 00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:08.719 And our biggest fans will buy that up. 00:58:08.880 --> 00:58:09.920 A lot of people collect it. 00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:16.079 And you know, back when we were running a lot more marketing, there was actually a value to reselling that product on a secondary market. 00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:24.159 So I was learning from different companies and just thinking, how do I apply that same idea to our consumers that they did for their consumers? 00:58:24.320 --> 00:58:28.559 And on the certification level, I took that idea from the hotel industry. 00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:35.280 I looked at the hospitality industry and I was like, okay, how do I apply the hospitality industry strategies into the manufacturing space? 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:35.599 Right. 00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.039 Because there's a lot of parallels. 00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:38.880 There's a lot of parallels in the world. 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.599 And you just have to find that and learn how to apply that. 00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:50.159 This is um closing thought, but I think paying attention is one of the most underrated things about being an entrepreneur or a business person. 00:58:50.400 --> 00:59:00.239 All too often, as founders, we're just like absorbed in our Shopify dashboards or bank account logins or whatever login, you know, and looking at the data, the numbers, the Slack. 00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:04.480 And I find myself just like in the pit of like the matrix. 00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:06.239 You know, I I mentioned this to you earlier. 00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:07.920 I took two weeks for paternity leave. 00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:08.239 Yeah. 00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:11.519 And in those two weeks, I just I took a huge step back. 00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:16.880 And I still read my Slack, but I read it with the lens of like, I'm not going to be the one to answer these. 00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:19.440 I'm just reading out of curiosity. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:32.079 And when you take a step back to stop being like in the trenches of operating, and you take a step back just to have a high-level POV and look around, look at where you are, look at where the world is, and just observe. 00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:40.559 That is like arguably one of the most valuable things you can do for yourself or your business that I genuinely think is one of the most underrated skills. 00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:44.480 Now, of course, you have to be able to take that step back, but for some people that just comes innate. 00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:44.800 Yeah. 00:59:44.960 --> 01:00:02.800 It's also why people with more experience in business tend to tackle harder problems when you're, in your case, you're still very young, but like let's say you're in your 30s or 40s or 50s, you've done a bunch of stuff, you take a step back, you have that experience, not to mention the capital or the infrastructure to tackle bigger problems. 01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:03.119 Yeah. 01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:07.920 Roman Kahn, who's been on this podcast, said to me once, it's like, you know, I can, I can do anything. 01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:11.440 And all those problems have the same amount of brain damage. 01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:16.719 Whether you're tackling a small problem or a gigantic problem, it's the same amount of brain damage. 01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:18.559 You're still going to dedicate your life to it. 01:00:18.719 --> 01:00:20.079 It's still going to cause you stress. 01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:20.239 Yeah. 01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:22.000 It's still going to spike your cortisol. 01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:26.000 So you might as well go after the biggest one because it's the same amount of brain damage as a small thing. 01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:27.280 So it's just a closing thought. 01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.400 And then I want to ask you some rapid-fire questions that I love to ask people as well. 01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:31.039 Let's do it. 01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:33.039 So yeah, these are just fun, fast ones. 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:36.079 First one is a brand with exceptional packaging right now. 01:00:36.320 --> 01:00:39.599 I think um I see a lot of great passion coming out of the supplement space. 01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:40.079 Seed. 01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:41.199 Seed does a great job. 01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:42.320 And they're packed insane. 01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:43.280 Beautiful bottle. 01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:44.000 Yeah, the glass. 01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:45.199 Yeah, frosted glass. 01:00:45.360 -->

01:00:45.920 Such a standard. 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:50.079 A founder or operator that you learn from or love right now? 01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.159 There's so many that I I respect. 01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:55.840 I I like to really say like Vince and Daniel from eCon Flow. 01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:57.199 Like they're guys my age. 01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:59.360 They're doing great things in the supply chain space. 01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:00.719 I I think they're great operators. 01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:01.679 I look up to them a lot. 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:04.960 The best early stage software bet you've made. 01:01:05.280 --> 01:01:06.079 Triple L. 01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:08.800 One you passed on that you regret? 01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:10.800 Not that I can really think of. 01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:11.679 Nice. 01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:14.639 I passed on SpaceX really early, but they're not really a startup. 01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:15.519 That was a fumble. 01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:19.119 Most overrated packaging style or finish right now. 01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:20.559 It's a bit of a technical question. 01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:21.360 Magnetic. 01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:24.480 Magnetic boxes or um soft touch. 01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:26.400 I think they're just really expensive for no reason. 01:01:26.719 --> 01:01:28.480 Magnetic is also horrible for the environment, right? 01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:30.559 Yeah, I just think I'm an overkill. 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:32.639 There's other ways to make it look nice without the magnets. 01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:33.679 I think it's like a cop-out. 01:01:34.159 --> 01:01:36.880 One software or tool that your team could not work without. 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:37.679 Lark. 01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:38.239 Interesting. 01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:39.440 You ever used Lark before? 01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:40.239 I know about it. 01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:40.880 I've never used it. 01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:41.360 Lark. 01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:42.719 That's the ByteDance one, right? 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:44.400 Yeah, change her entire business. 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:45.360 Yeah, tell me more. 01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:49.280 So Lark was a software that was made by ByteDance for their internal use. 01:01:49.440 --> 01:01:52.320 Also, where I got like a lot of inspiration for our own software. 01:01:52.480 --> 01:02:00.559 And it's basically like if you could have ClickUp and Slack and you know, WhatsApp, bunch of stuff, and even like Google Drive all in one. 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:03.039 And they allow you to build on top of their software. 01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.960 So like we're building our own custom apps within Lark that can handle a lot of our curies. 01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:12.480 We have like a centralized company brain inside so anyone can ask anything that's happening in the company and just get an answer immediately. 01:02:12.639 --> 01:02:12.960 Wow. 01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:13.760 It's so good. 01:02:14.079 --> 01:02:15.760 Two follow-up questions on LARC. 01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:21.039 One, is that China facing, or if you were like say a European or US business? 01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:22.639 It's a there's an English version. 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:24.320 So it's totally fair game. 01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:29.440 And then two, it sounds like it's and it's it's funny, I was literally just looking at LARC this past week. 01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:31.039 That's why I I know exactly what it is. 01:02:31.119 --> 01:02:36.320 But it sounds like it solves multiple different, it's almost like a super app in in in some ways. 01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:36.880 Yeah. 01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:39.519 How long is the onboarding time into that? 01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:40.639 Took us a week. 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:47.039 We we hire an ex-Lark employee to basically come in to be like our consultant, which I can give to you whenever you need. 01:02:47.199 --> 01:02:52.000 But I really like Lark, especially for cross-border companies, is because they have automatic translation. 01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:57.199 So like our team can speak in Chinese, yeah, and they don't have to go on Google and translate it and then send it. 01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:02.880 It'll auto-translate without losing context to our English speaking team, and they can just have conversations. 01:03:03.119 --> 01:03:06.880 And that feature is built into the video conference calls. 01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:11.280 So like we'll have our all hands where half the team speaks Chinese, half the team speaks English. 01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:15.679 They will just talk and there's a subtitle and auto-translate what they're saying in real time. 01:03:16.159 --> 01:03:16.960 It's so good. 01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:17.599 Wow. 01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:20.000 Um, I need to take a look at this more seriously. 01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:23.519 Last couple ones, first hire you'd make if you were starting all over again. 01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:24.320 Operations. 01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:27.039 Head of operations, operations, head of operations. 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:30.480 Like I think as a founder, you need to get yourself out of the trenches as soon as you can. 01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.119 And operations, one of those things that just takes so much brain power. 01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:41.519 It takes so much of your time that if you keep getting stuck on doing ops, you're not gonna have time to do things that really requires you to think creatively as a founder. 01:03:41.760 --> 01:03:43.119 Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. 01:03:43.360 --> 01:03:48.480 One founder habit that you think is a liability or like the most overrated founder. 01:03:49.039 --> 01:03:49.599 Micromanaging. 01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:51.119 And the most underrated founder. 01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:52.000 Underrated. 01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:54.880 I think checking in with your team is very underrated. 01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:59.280 I make a habit of trying to talk to everyone in our team as

even as we grow. 01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:02.639 Like I feel like when I was running a team of five people, I can talk to every single person. 01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:04.960 When I ran a team of 10 people, I can talk to every single person. 01:04:05.119 --> 01:04:06.400 Now we have over 45 people. 01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:10.159 Like there's new new members that I've not spoken to since they joined. 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:15.760 And I had that reflection a few weeks ago where I was like, I don't want to get to a point where I stop knowing who my team members are. 01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:30.880 So I started making an effort of like setting up one-on-ones with them, setting up group calls and welcoming them and checking in on them and making sure that they know that they can still speak to me and like I'm still a resource to them and trying to break that barrier because I feel like oftentimes they get to a point where like they're scared to talk to you because like you're the you're the boss. 01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:32.800 They don't want to like they don't really work with you. 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:35.519 They work, you know, with your head of departments and whatnot. 01:04:35.679 --> 01:04:38.639 But I don't want to get to a point where I stop knowing who my team members are. 01:04:38.880 --> 01:04:40.880 And I want to I want to do that for as long as I can. 01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:44.800 I know that's impossible once we get to a hundred, but for as long as I can, I'm gonna try. 01:04:45.039 --> 01:04:46.239 Yeah, just like checking in. 01:04:46.400 --> 01:04:48.800 Yeah, you know, like one-on-ones, no agenda necessary. 01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:49.440 Hey, what's up? 01:04:49.519 --> 01:04:49.920 How are you? 01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:51.039 Yeah, where are you from? 01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:52.079 Just get to know them. 01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:56.000 This is my last closing thought, but what's your behavior on like calls? 01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:57.199 Are you a big calls guy? 01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:02.000 Do you load up your schedule with calls or do you async are you the anti-call guy? 01:05:02.320 --> 01:05:02.960 Hate calls. 01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:03.440 Yeah. 01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:06.960 Same, but how do you how do you work around that? 01:05:07.039 --> 01:05:09.440 Because all everyone's always like, let's talk on a call. 01:05:09.519 --> 01:05:11.199 And I feel like calls disrupt my flow. 01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:11.599 Yeah. 01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:16.000 I have this principle that calls should only be for discussions rather than for reports. 01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:20.639 Like if you set up a call for six of us just to go through a report, that could have been an email. 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:22.880 That could have been a brief that we all read through. 01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:26.719 And you could probably send that to us prior to the meeting, but we'll discuss it together. 01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:30.880 But like if we're not discussing something, there's no point for us to be all on a call. 01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:38.000 I was telling my um my head of content the other day because like some of our content calls really just sort of going through like our metrics on our content channels. 01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:46.480 And I was like, you're you're getting six of us on a call right now, six of people that I think are really brilliant, they have a lot of great ideas, and we're spending that time going through numbers. 01:05:46.639 --> 01:05:48.400 It's not a productive way of doing meetings. 01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.039 So, like if it could be in an email, it'll be an email. 01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:54.000 If it can't, it should be a discussion, but there should be an agenda there. 01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:57.039 I'm not like anti calls in the sense of like I just don't do any calls. 01:05:57.199 --> 01:05:59.039 I just think that calls need to be productive. 01:05:59.119 --> 01:06:03.679 I d I think if we have 30 minute slot, but we can finish it in eleven minutes, we'll finish in eleven minutes. 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:04.239 Do that. 01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:07.599 Like there's no reason to drag it on if there's no reason to. 01:06:07.679 --> 01:06:10.480 And that's something that I tell every single person before we get on a call. 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:11.360 True that. 01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:12.880 Jason, good stuff. 01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:13.119 Thanks. 01:06:13.599 --> 01:06:14.079 Thanks for having me. 01:06:14.320 --> 01:06:14.719 That was great.