Full Transcript for Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom by Cory Doctorow with Phil Hilliker

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 04:49.685 --> 04:56.489 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I downloaded it as .txt files, each chapter was its own text file. 04:57.069 --> 05:07.155 [SPEAKER_00]: I loaded them onto my second generation iPod, like click wheel iPod, that little tiny like flange by three inch screen. 05:07.655 --> 05:13.919 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I read it on the train going back and forth from my apartment to my day job at Northwestern. 05:14.539 --> 05:15.740 [SPEAKER_00]: I would just read a little bit 05:18.882 --> 05:27.410 [SPEAKER_00]: It gave me, so, don't know how the magic kingdom is like a post-siber punk transhumanism novel. 05:27.951 --> 05:39.262 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it has optimism to it, unlike cyberpunk novels, which I think was Bruce Sterling described cyberpunk as like low-life with high tech. 05:40.043 --> 06:06.740 [SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, a lot of cyberpunk stuff is people who are the lowest rungs of society who are being oppressed by giant mega-corps that run the government, and imposed cyberpunk movements that was kind of happening in the early 2000s, there was this idea of kind of like technology, possibly being our savior, or technology itself, but like more freedom through technology, solving our problems at 06:09.642 --> 06:37.953 [SPEAKER_00]: seven years before the iPhone came out, Facebook was around and right it was early day like my space right so like we didn't have a lot of the ridiculous spy technology where like every corporation is only serving us so they can like mine our data the the top phones were like Nokia and if you were a really fancy business person 06:39.413 --> 06:43.836 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would see people on the train with a blackberry and be like, oh, it's just a status symbol, right? 06:43.936 --> 06:49.279 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, so this is kind of where we were with this nascent technology. 06:49.979 --> 06:56.943 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was still a little bit of optimism involved in that for at least a big chunk of us. 06:57.983 --> 07:22.395 [SPEAKER_00]: We were coming out of the 90s with like you know the the pessimism of the 90s where it came from like fight club and you're not a unique snowflake you'll never be famous kind of stuff right and so there was this movement in the early 2000s of you know what maybe there should be some optimism maybe technology and free technology open access technology can be the way that we get there. 07:23.275 --> 07:26.139 [SPEAKER_00]: And so Cory Doctor was a big proponent of that kind of stuff. 07:26.559 --> 07:28.201 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was on board immediately. 07:28.221 --> 07:32.626 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I just said a lot of what you did. 07:32.646 --> 07:34.288 [SPEAKER_02]: All of them incredible. 07:34.308 --> 07:39.294 [SPEAKER_02]: I have never, I've just said probably interviewed like what, like 135 people for this podcast. 07:41.852 --> 07:47.035 [SPEAKER_02]: You're the first one who's ever told me you read the book on your eyes. 07:47.055 --> 07:53.179 [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, it was also a little bit of a young person's move where I was like, this book is about the future. 07:53.199 --> 08:04.006 [SPEAKER_00]: And I am reading it in this ridiculous futuristic way on a platform that is going to also be the future because it's giving away art for free. 08:04.026 --> 08:04.506 [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. 08:05.207 --> 08:05.427 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 08:05.487 --> 08:08.409 [SPEAKER_02]: And did you have to scroll through on like the little- Yeah, the little- 08:08.969 --> 08:24.897 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like every page turn would just be like a little click of the wheel oh my gosh a lot start to finish we've this already a home ride all right so talking about the stories down and out in the magic kingdom yes it was down and out 08:25.337 --> 08:39.562 [SPEAKER_00]: So the main character is a guy named Julius and he lives in a, it's not a utopia, but it is like a post-government post-monetary system world. 08:40.002 --> 08:49.505 [SPEAKER_00]: There's been a revolution and government is now gone and money is now gone and everything is run by ad hoc committees. 08:50.245 --> 09:05.999 [SPEAKER_00]: And the people with the best ideas just get to run a thing and he has something occurring his life that you don't find out and so about halfway through the book that things kind of fall apart for him and he ends up 09:06.880 --> 09:14.724 [SPEAKER_00]: back for the second time in his life at Disney World in Florida helping run some of the major attractions. 09:15.184 --> 09:29.752 [SPEAKER_00]: So they're like various ad hoc committees that run, you know, front to your town or his ad hoc committee that he's a member of does the Hall of Presidents and Tom Sawyer's Island and the haunted mansion. 09:30.756 --> 09:43.721 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, oh, really big time places that like, and there's this idea within the committee of do we preserve history or do we change things to make them more exciting for the new audience. 09:44.141 --> 09:51.363 [SPEAKER_00]: Or is nostalgia and keeping things traditional the best way to keep an audience. 09:51.823 --> 09:56.425 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a really fun tension within that, but there are also rival ad hoc committees. 09:56.825 --> 10:18.724 [SPEAKER_00]: who really want to take over these big attractions because running these big attractions is a way to earn reputation because when you don't have money and everybody gets all of their basic needs met the way to get better stuff the way to increase your station in life is actually 10:22.487 --> 10:29.668 [SPEAKER_00]: So, in the book, it's called Wolfie, which is a ridiculous name, and I'm pretty sure Cory Doctoral knew it was a ridiculous name. 10:30.089 --> 10:37.170 [SPEAKER_00]: But within technology, you give something a name, even if it's ridiculous, when people start using it, it doesn't become ridiculous anymore, right? 10:37.230 --> 10:43.331 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, for years before Elon Musk killed it, we

were tweeting it each other. 10:43.471 --> 10:43.711 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 10:44.031 --> 10:49.072 [SPEAKER_00]: And like, if you would have said in, you know, the late 1990s, oh, I tweeted this, 10:52.613 --> 10:53.094 [SPEAKER_02]: Google? 10:53.375 --> 10:53.735 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 10:53.876 --> 10:55.599 [SPEAKER_02]: What is ridiculous name? 10:55.699 --> 10:55.960 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 10:56.641 --> 10:58.825 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a misspelling of a giant number. 11:00.589 --> 11:00.729 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh. 11:00.789 --> 11:01.110 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 11:01.130 --> 11:01.190 [SPEAKER_02]: So. 11:01.510 --> 11:02.091 [SPEAKER_02]: What's the number? 11:02.636 --> 11:05.198 [SPEAKER_00]: Google, oh, I can't even remember what the number is. 11:05.278 --> 11:09.902 [SPEAKER_00]: My son, who's a genius, knows how many zeros are in it. 11:10.142 --> 11:10.943 [SPEAKER_02]: I have them calling. 11:11.123 --> 11:12.704 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I'll ask him later. 11:13.044 --> 11:17.007 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but no, yeah, it's just a ridiculous number, ridiculous word. 11:17.087 --> 11:17.848 [SPEAKER_02]: So, right. 11:18.008 --> 11:20.009 [SPEAKER_02]: But yes, we got Julius. 11:20.050 --> 11:21.531 [SPEAKER_02]: He's at the Hall of Presidents. 11:21.771 --> 11:25.594 [SPEAKER_02]: And then what are some of the other ad hoc committees doing? 11:26.114 --> 11:28.656 [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the tension that we're talking about, too. 11:28.696 --> 11:29.757 [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to dive into this. 11:29.897 --> 11:48.277 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so what's interesting is that even though a lot of these big problems have been solved with, you know, say government or providing people with their basic needs all being met, there's no more serious poverty, humans are still involved. 11:48.877 --> 12:00.371 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there is, there are rivalries because the, in a way, the new currency, even though it's not currency is wolfy, got to watch that number go up. 12:00.772 --> 12:01.052 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 12:01.232 --> 12:05.477 [SPEAKER_00]: So people are constantly comparing each other's scores to one another. 12:05.497 --> 12:06.318 [SPEAKER_00]: And so. 12:08.115 --> 12:13.262 [SPEAKER_02]: kind of like social media with like getting your likes now and 100% is. 12:13.823 --> 12:22.034 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting because Cory Doctoral was writing this in the early days of all this social media and he recognized, oh, this is a thing. 12:22.214 --> 12:22.515 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 12:22.735 --> 12:24.217 [SPEAKER_00]: And immediately just 12:25.078 --> 12:27.739 [SPEAKER_00]: kind of blew that up into its own thing. 12:28.139 --> 12:36.223 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you've got Julia showing back up at the magic kingdom, joining the group back up. 12:36.783 --> 12:43.286 [SPEAKER_00]: And he ends up meeting a young woman who also kind of runs the committee. 12:43.326 --> 12:45.226 [SPEAKER_00]: She's the defacto head of the committee. 12:45.707 --> 12:48.828 [SPEAKER_00]: Her name is Lil and they started a relationship. 12:49.668 --> 12:59.415 [SPEAKER_00]: And a little while after he's there, he's comfortable a friend of his from his second graduate school program. 13:00.035 --> 13:03.157 [SPEAKER_00]: His name is Dan, shows up with zero wuffy. 13:03.838 --> 13:05.659 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks have gone really poorly for Dan. 13:06.059 --> 13:13.565 [SPEAKER_00]: Dan before this was a basically an evangelist for this movement that is getting rid of governments. 13:14.305 --> 13:23.490 [SPEAKER_00]: He was a technology evangelist, going around and finding little pockets that hadn't accepted this movement and kind of convincing them to join. 13:24.150 --> 13:27.692 [SPEAKER_00]: Eventually, the whole world is convinced of this. 13:28.212 --> 13:37.417 [SPEAKER_00]: Dan falls out with some people, he has zero reputation left, and he wants to die, but he doesn't want to go out. 13:38.177 --> 13:47.265 [SPEAKER_00]: with zero wolfie because that he would consider himself like basically losing and this is also a post-mortality existence. 13:47.825 --> 13:56.592 [SPEAKER_00]: You can upload your memories to a bank and then get cloned if you die and they'll like dump your memories back into your new cloned body. 13:56.612 --> 13:57.073 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 13:57.573 --> 14:01.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Corey Dr. O did not foresee cloud uploading. 14:01.895 --> 14:04.817 [SPEAKER_00]: So like automatic backups like happened for us now. 14:05.337 --> 14:15.223 [SPEAKER_00]: The characters in the book actually have to go to a like outlet, a station to upload their memories every now and again. 14:15.443 --> 14:19.125 [SPEAKER_00]: And if they die and an upload doesn't happen, they've lost those memories. 14:19.745 --> 14:21.226 [SPEAKER_02]: It really was like 2,000. 14:21.246 --> 14:23.107 [SPEAKER_02]: It really was. 14:23.187 --> 14:25.949 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you're a paper's deleted and you didn't put it. 14:26.009 --> 14:26.249 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 14:26.790 --> 14:27.951 [SPEAKER_02]: You have to save it to your flash. 14:28.031 --> 14:29.632 [SPEAKER_02]: Not, not to me, your flash drive back here. 14:29.652 --> 14:31.373 [SPEAKER_02]: Like your, your CD ROM. 14:31.413 --> 14:33.014 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you didn't burn a CD with it. 14:33.094 --> 14:33.534 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 14:34.975 --> 14:53.400 [SPEAKER_00]: So Dan is shown up basically to earn enough reputation so that you can live out the rest of his life and not be rebooted again Because he's just excited he's done Which is a decision that some people come to in this book when they've lived hundreds of years that they're like, okay I just don't need to be rebooted. 14:53.660 --> 14:54.320 [SPEAKER_00]: I've lived enough 14:55.080 --> 14:59.742 [SPEAKER_00]: and then things go off the rail, this isn't a spoiler because it happens fairly early in the book. 15:00.222 --> 15:03.744 [SPEAKER_00]: Julius is at the, what is it? 15:03.844 --> 15:08.846

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the attraction with all the singing birds, the Tiki, the Tiki house. 15:09.427 --> 15:10.407 [SPEAKER_02]: Look at it, I don't know. 15:10.847 --> 15:12.708 [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, it's a small world. 15:12.988 --> 15:16.410 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's like, it's like, yeah, I hold down one second. 15:16.430 --> 15:16.890 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll look it up. 15:16.990 --> 15:17.630 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, the Tiki room. 15:17.930 --> 15:18.511 [SPEAKER_02]: The Tiki room. 15:18.551 --> 15:22.993 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's in the Tiki room and someone shoots him. 15:23.893 --> 15:29.137 [SPEAKER_00]: but he hadn't backed up for a little while and so a bunch of his memories are also gone. 15:30.198 --> 15:38.564 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when he comes back it then becomes him unraveling because he's trying to figure out who killed him. 15:39.024 --> 15:48.471 [SPEAKER_00]: He's convinced that it was a rival ad hoc committee that killed him to use his murder as a distraction to overtake the hall of presidents. 15:49.184 --> 15:50.105 [SPEAKER_02]: makes sense to me. 15:50.165 --> 15:51.086 [SPEAKER_00]: It totally does. 15:51.566 --> 16:06.159 [SPEAKER_00]: And so in a way it becomes this murder mystery on top of this kind of study of what happens to the world using Disney World as a microcosm when all these problems should be solved. 16:06.839 --> 16:19.242 [SPEAKER_00]: But problem still crop up and Julius just kind of unravels starts expecting everybody goes off the rails It's still a human being and it's pretty great overall. 16:19.282 --> 16:24.284 [SPEAKER_00]: I recorrect our because of his ideas It's just so chalk full of ideas. 16:24.304 --> 16:27.145 [SPEAKER_00]: You read this book and it's like, oh, there's another idea that he's got. 16:27.165 --> 16:28.265 [SPEAKER_00]: There's another idea because yeah 16:28.705 --> 16:49.348 [SPEAKER_00]: he starts pushing this idea of transhumanism like some people like start show up is side characters that are messing with their bodies and have like cat fur or double jointed legs or that sort of thing is just like let's just throw some more stuff in here yeah to walk about the term transhumanism because I think for me I'm like 16:50.173 --> 16:51.734 [SPEAKER_02]: what is that in compass? 16:51.994 --> 17:09.205 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure, so it can be, it's a wide breadth of things, but it's basically in a grading technology into the human body to surpass the limitations of human skill or capabilities. 17:09.985 --> 17:22.678 [SPEAKER_00]: There are some people you might hear about that are like tech heads that even today are doing experiments on themselves and doing small things like installing little magnets in their hands. 17:22.698 --> 17:26.662 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the listener can't see my eyes just like blew up. 17:27.063 --> 17:27.243 [SPEAKER_02]: Why? 17:27.323 --> 17:41.655 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so this was from several years ago, there's a reporter that took a surgical grade sleeve so to end where finger and put like a little magnet in there that would spin in the presence of 17:46.539 --> 18:02.542 [SPEAKER_00]: So that she could see if things are giving off, say, more power than like a company claims or that sort of stuff in one way she now has a sixth sense right in her body to detect these fields by installing this magnet. 18:02.562 --> 18:10.944 [SPEAKER_00]: So at the very base level, that's transhumanism because she's pushing her body towards more stuff by using technology. 18:11.184 --> 18:11.424 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 18:11.784 --> 18:12.364 [SPEAKER_02]: Not for me. 18:12.704 --> 18:12.885 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 18:13.245 --> 18:16.506 [SPEAKER_02]: I would be like, can you not just have a tool that's you keep in your purse? 18:16.526 --> 18:17.086 [SPEAKER_00]: 100%. 18:17.586 --> 18:30.132 [SPEAKER_00]: But her argument was that when she went into companies that were like, okay, we're confiscating all of your camera's phones, all that kind of stuff, they can't take that out of the her body. 18:30.192 --> 18:33.013 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't know often that it's there or that sort of thing. 18:33.393 --> 18:43.448 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and so transhumanism starts small like that, but also is like how can we kind of push our bodies to do more through technology? 18:43.568 --> 18:49.257 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, does he write like other stories specifically on that idea or does he branch out? 18:50.117 --> 19:00.762 [SPEAKER_00]: So he is written 30 books, I think it's 30, both fiction and non-fiction and he writes some stuff more stuff on transhumanism. 19:01.263 --> 19:14.369 [SPEAKER_00]: He has a series of books that are about a detective that works in Silicon Valley in the 80s, just solving crimes that happen within technology companies. 19:17.070 --> 19:45.580 [SPEAKER_00]: He is for years worked for the nonprofit, the electronics frontier foundation, and the EFF is a nonprofit that really pushes for just technology freedom, freedom of speech, online, not in like the, I want to say terrible stuff about, you know, minoritized people online, but like when governments are like, oh, I don't like what you said, so I'm going to sue you online kind of 19:46.560 --> 19:49.602 [SPEAKER_00]: and he's been doing that work for 25 years, right? 19:49.642 --> 19:56.246 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's just kind of at the forefront constantly with technology and thought and where society is going. 19:56.766 --> 20:02.570 [SPEAKER_00]: And it has been really fun following his career for the last 25 or so years. 20:02.630 --> 20:03.651 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah. 20:03.811 --> 20:04.731 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's interesting. 20:04.751 --> 20:07.413 [SPEAKER_02]: I know he used to go to library conferences a lot. 20:07.533 --> 20:08.994 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if he still goes, but... 20:09.570 --> 20:10.151 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know. 20:10.371 --> 20:14.155 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen him twice now through the years at Fountain Bookstore events. 20:14.176 -->

20:14.696 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, really. 20:14.776 --> 20:15.817 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 20:15.857 --> 20:21.284 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's always brilliant and very approachable in person. 20:21.744 --> 20:27.992 [SPEAKER_00]: He seems genuine and like just like a kind of a you what you see is what you get kind of a guy. 20:28.212 --> 20:28.553 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 20:28.613 --> 20:28.833 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 20:29.432 --> 20:30.172 [SPEAKER_02]: Fantastic. 20:30.312 --> 20:32.873 [SPEAKER_02]: I'll next time he's a fountain, I'll pop in. 20:33.034 --> 20:34.454 [SPEAKER_00]: You definitely should, yeah. 20:34.614 --> 20:37.535 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, so he also writes opinion pieces often. 20:38.016 --> 20:41.037 [SPEAKER_00]: And have you heard the term in shidification? 20:41.437 --> 20:41.757 [SPEAKER_02]: I have. 20:41.957 --> 20:43.458 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's the one that coined that term. 20:43.558 --> 20:43.838 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 20:44.575 --> 20:57.981 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it was a guardian article, I might be wrong about that, but he's the one that coined that term and developed this idea of basically the degradation of services and particularly online spaces. 20:58.901 --> 21:02.543 [SPEAKER_00]: And his, do you mind if I run through these three steps really quickly? 21:02.923 --> 21:05.324 [SPEAKER_00]: So there are basically three steps to this process. 21:05.924 --> 21:06.605 [SPEAKER_00]: The first is, 21:07.825 --> 21:20.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Get all the users signed up as quickly as possible for free, give them a great experience, so that they and all of their friends and all of their family join on, so that everybody feels like that's the place to be. 21:20.754 --> 21:24.857 [SPEAKER_00]: Once everybody's there, then you start selling advertising. 21:25.597 --> 21:29.779 [SPEAKER_00]: it really high rates to advertisers to just start blasting these users. 21:30.559 --> 21:38.162 [SPEAKER_00]: And that degrades the user experience, but the users feel like, oh, but everybody's here, and if I'm not here, then I'm going to miss out on something. 21:38.842 --> 21:46.805 [SPEAKER_00]: And once you get all the the advertisers locked in, then you start charging the advertisers more and more 21:50.866 --> 21:55.469 [SPEAKER_00]: charge the user, want to see if you were ads, don't just pay this and you can see if you were ads. 21:55.909 --> 21:59.011 [SPEAKER_00]: And in this way, it's a bad experience for the user. 21:59.351 --> 22:07.116 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a bad experience for the advertiser because the advertiser is also the users aren't seeing the ads because they're also buried. 22:07.737 --> 22:09.598 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's only good for the company. 22:10.498 --> 22:14.661 [SPEAKER_00]: And once you start to see this, it's everywhere. 22:14.761 --> 22:16.002 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like all social media. 22:16.162 --> 22:20.124 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, they all start this way and go through this process. 22:20.685 --> 22:24.487 [SPEAKER_00]: In some ways, all the streaming services have done this, right? 22:24.527 --> 22:27.208 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they showed up. 22:27.428 --> 22:30.350 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been a Netflix subscriber since the beginning. 22:30.950 --> 22:33.672 [SPEAKER_00]: I was on the before I had children or a child. 22:34.893 --> 22:37.294 [SPEAKER_00]: I was on a four DVD at a time plan. 22:37.714 --> 22:46.341 [SPEAKER_00]: When they were still mailing DVDs before they had any streaming service because I was, you know, a young married guy, too. 22:46.521 --> 22:47.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly. 22:47.702 --> 22:54.047 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you see in these streaming services, they've kind of killed off the competition because cables not a thing anymore. 22:54.267 --> 22:55.968 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a splintered experience. 22:56.589 --> 22:58.090 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody has signed up for these things. 22:58.190 --> 23:01.953 [SPEAKER_00]: And then once everybody signs up for them, oh, then they jack up the prices. 23:01.993 --> 23:04.135 [SPEAKER_00]: But you have a lower option with an add tier. 23:05.759 --> 23:10.585 [SPEAKER_00]: And, oh, but if you don't want to pay, if you don't want the ads, you just pay so much more. 23:11.507 --> 23:15.391 [SPEAKER_00]: It's everywhere, and this cycle just continues. 23:16.513 --> 23:23.682 [SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, if things were working properly in, you know, a proper capital of society, 23:24.162 --> 23:28.404 [SPEAKER_00]: the competition would help squash this, but everybody's playing the same game. 23:29.064 --> 23:37.567 [SPEAKER_00]: And there isn't the real competition that the closest thing that I've seen in social media is maybe blue sky. 23:37.587 --> 23:38.367 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 23:38.848 --> 23:40.208 [SPEAKER_00]: I really like blue sky overall. 23:40.368 --> 23:45.410 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like as of right now, as of the recording of this, I still stress the people behind. 23:46.611 --> 23:49.552 [SPEAKER_02]: And this launch is blue sky is gonna announce their ad. 23:49.673 --> 23:51.614 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 23:51.954 --> 23:54.395 [SPEAKER_02]: So he is definitely like a thought leader for sure. 23:55.856 --> 23:56.257 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 23:56.357 --> 23:57.297 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 23:57.517 --> 23:59.278 [SPEAKER_02]: Some, I mean, genius. 23:59.579 --> 24:02.000 [SPEAKER_02]: And definitely someone that I respect. 24:02.482 --> 24:11.367 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 100% and so I mentioned earlier that he's written by 30 books in the last 25 years, both fiction and nonfiction. 24:11.707 --> 24:25.555 [SPEAKER_00]: And he had an analogy that he brought up, I don't know, maybe like 15 years ago or so, that when you're creative, you should treat your projects as if you're a dandy lion, not as if you're a parent. 24:26.675 --> 24:29.197 [SPEAKER_00]: Because dandelions create all these seeds, 24:30.017 --> 24:31.678 [SPEAKER_00]: and just toss them out into the world. 24:31.978 --> 24:40.321 [SPEAKER_00]: They know

that not the deadline has any consciousness, but not all those seeds are going to grow up into anything, but some of them will. 24:40.361 --> 24:41.282 [SPEAKER_00]: A good portion of them will. 24:41.602 --> 24:55.647 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you throw 100 out, the odds of a bunch of those projects working out is better than if you say, are a person who's raising children, and you have two, three projects that you're putting all of your time in effort in for 20 years, 24:57.068 --> 25:02.862 [SPEAKER_00]: not to say that, you know, imply that children will fail, but in this analogy, projects. 25:03.022 --> 25:03.223 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 25:03.263 --> 25:04.305 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you 25:05.034 --> 25:07.955 [SPEAKER_00]: put all of your time and effort into just a couple of projects. 25:07.975 --> 25:09.236 [SPEAKER_00]: You only have a couple of projects. 25:09.636 --> 25:15.358 [SPEAKER_00]: But if you toss out a ton, then you've got a lawn full of the end alliance. 25:15.478 --> 25:17.939 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, amazing. 25:18.019 --> 25:20.541 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well now I have to start 14 more podcasts. 25:21.101 --> 25:23.722 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no problem, got it, got it. 25:23.882 --> 25:30.805 [SPEAKER_02]: I have been thinking my answer to this question, like have this interview, but like the vibe of the story, 25:31.760 --> 25:32.481 [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit. 25:33.622 --> 25:35.424 [SPEAKER_02]: Can I tell you all I've been thinking about? 25:35.504 --> 25:36.405 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. 25:36.425 --> 25:37.245 [SPEAKER_02]: Is black mirror? 25:37.946 --> 25:40.569 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the episode with Bryce Dallas Howard, right? 25:40.689 --> 25:41.029 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 25:41.369 --> 25:43.792 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, a lot of it. 25:44.392 --> 25:49.017 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, definitely the one with the social media, what they can think. 25:49.057 --> 25:51.899 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's been a while, but for if you haven't seen it, 25:52.700 --> 26:02.175 [SPEAKER_02]: They, every picture they take, it's somehow they get, they get like scores, but it's not just on social media, it's on their real life. 26:02.195 --> 26:03.096 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's their life. 26:03.116 --> 26:07.202 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's been a, I saw that episode when it first came out, so it's been years. 26:07.663 --> 26:27.224 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure that's one of the Bryce Dallas Howard and she starts her day as like a fairly well-liked person and by the end of this one terrible day, she can't rent a car, everybody is like refusing to even help her out because her reputation has gone so poorly. 26:27.438 --> 26:27.778 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 26:28.359 --> 26:30.119 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm getting that episode. 26:30.300 --> 26:35.122 [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's the other episode, I can't remember, it's very famous. 26:35.602 --> 26:37.443 [SPEAKER_02]: But they upload their consciousness. 26:37.463 --> 26:41.425 [SPEAKER_02]: There's several black mirror episodes that refer to unloading your consciousness. 26:41.445 --> 26:41.686 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:41.746 --> 26:47.549 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a fairly common toy to play with in fiction at this point. 26:47.589 --> 26:47.989 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 26:48.149 --> 26:48.409 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 26:48.449 --> 26:52.411 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm getting, that's, that's the vibe that I'm getting from the story. 26:52.431 --> 26:53.252 [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think? 26:53.272 --> 26:53.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:53.712 --> 26:53.952 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:53.972 --> 26:54.132 [SPEAKER_00]: 100%. 26:54.152 --> 26:54.312 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 26:55.793 --> 27:03.795 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting how there is a lot of optimism in this book, but there's it's not perfect by far. 27:04.675 --> 27:13.278 [SPEAKER_00]: It's fairly realistic about the inclusion of people is always going to be an issue, right? 27:13.298 --> 27:17.559 [SPEAKER_00]: Like because nobody's perfect and when we're working 27:22.160 --> 27:34.856 [SPEAKER_00]: Often times, despite all of the messiness, we work through it and we can, there is the potential for us to create beautiful things, even among messiness. 27:35.148 --> 27:35.368 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 27:35.628 --> 27:37.709 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think because of Messing. 27:37.769 --> 27:38.069 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. 27:38.129 --> 27:38.389 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 27:38.469 --> 27:38.969 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. 27:38.989 --> 27:41.550 [SPEAKER_02]: And I, yeah. 27:41.570 --> 27:44.291 [SPEAKER_02]: There without all the mess in the chaos, there isn't a beauty. 27:44.351 --> 27:47.332 [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of it comes out of that. 27:47.832 --> 27:48.092 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 27:48.472 --> 27:51.033 [SPEAKER_02]: Coming back to the book just for a minute. 27:51.073 --> 27:55.695 [SPEAKER_02]: Like any favorite characters or favorite scenes that you wanted to make sure we 27:56.335 --> 27:58.237 [SPEAKER_02]: We've discussed oh, wow. 27:58.397 --> 28:15.654 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it's so Julius as a main character I think he's actually gonna for some people will be a sampling block because he spins after his murder spins so much of time in the book is a rather unlikable character 28:16.685 --> 28:23.471 [SPEAKER_00]: But for you, you sometimes, I'm a listener of the podcast, and I know that you sometimes ask, who is this book for, right? 28:23.812 --> 28:25.333 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, because yeah, go for it. 28:25.513 --> 28:26.014 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, go for it. 28:26.194 --> 28:27.916 [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that, 28:28.705 --> 28:38.352 [SPEAKER_00]: Disney adults are could read this book and kind of appreciate the nostalgia that Cory Doctor O'Hass. 28:39.092 --> 28:44.896 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate, I'm not a huge Disney head, but I was going to ask if you are a Disney adult. 28:44.936 --> 28:48.919 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not, but there are things that I, is evil is the, 28:49.337 --> 28:51.198 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, corporation is, right?

28:51.258 --> 29:00.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, there are a lot of things that a lot of things that the people who are involved in the corporation have created that I love. 29:01.242 --> 29:06.585 [SPEAKER_00]: I think the Hanimanshan is a fantastic ride or attraction. 29:07.465 --> 29:09.486 [SPEAKER_00]: It's wonderful, so many cool tricks. 29:10.007 --> 29:13.568 [SPEAKER_00]: And the book talks about them so lovingly. 29:13.628 --> 29:19.931 [SPEAKER_00]: And you can tell that Cory Doctero has a lot of respect for the history of the place. 29:20.391 --> 29:26.814 [SPEAKER_00]: And the Imagineers, the group of people who are responsible for coming up with all the technology. 29:27.815 --> 29:27.935 [SPEAKER_00]: And, 29:28.425 --> 29:52.240 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's one of the things that I know you asked for a scene, but it was very generally one of the things that I appreciate about the book is the way that he talks about the attractions themselves and the technology behind the attractions and the way he contracts that with emerging technologies and these questions of, is it better to change things or to keep things the same? 29:53.945 --> 30:18.984 [SPEAKER_00]: on the thing that you're talking about and what this kind of thing would say with with the Hall of Presidents in the book the quote unquote evil ad hat committee does end up taking over the Hall of Presidents and they completely change it and they end up giving people an experience in which people are sitting in seats and getting experiences and scenes downloaded 30:22.867 --> 30:33.255 [SPEAKER_00]: events and moments of the president's lives themselves, and it kind of becomes it's not a thing that you sit and watch animatronics anymore. 30:33.576 --> 30:40.201 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the characters even quips that you could stay home and have that experience, because you're just simply downloading a thing. 30:41.121 --> 30:56.269 [SPEAKER_00]: But it gets great reviews because of the spectacle and the first hand sensations that people are receiving and that sort of thing and so for that audience that wants that experience It's a huge hit. 30:56.529 --> 31:00.371 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so it also goes back to what audience do you want? 31:00.392 --> 31:02.753 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to attract the new audience? 31:02.793 --> 31:06.795 [SPEAKER_00]: You want to hold on to the audience that you have for nostalgia, right? 31:06.815 --> 31:08.556 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not easy 31:09.003 --> 31:09.283 [SPEAKER_02]: Right. 31:09.744 --> 31:21.955 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think about I don't know if this really applies, but I think often times about like conservatism conservatism and progressivism of that essentially one is trying to pull into. 31:22.663 --> 31:29.785 [SPEAKER_02]: the future and one is trying to stay in the past and you kind of even I consider myself more progressive than conservative. 31:29.886 --> 31:36.148 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do understand the desire to stay sometimes. 31:36.428

--> 31:40.509 [SPEAKER_02]: I understand where that comes from and I don't know if that applies to the book at all. 31:40.869 --> 31:48.032 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I do think that's, so because a lot of these characters are living such long lives, there is a lot in nostalgia built in. 31:48.912 --> 31:50.735 [SPEAKER_00]: the main character Julius. 31:51.075 --> 31:54.340 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember how old he is, but he's well over a hundred. 31:54.360 --> 32:00.068 [SPEAKER_00]: I believe he's like 150, but he keeps his body appearing much younger. 32:00.108 --> 32:02.592 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he goes for like mid-30s. 32:04.254 --> 32:30.576 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but there are some people who go even younger to like early 20s and so you will have people show up and you don't even know how old they are until you kind of look at their stats basically like look at their user Yeah information and there is actually kind of a gross relationship in the book Admittedly between Julius and Lil Lil is biologically only like 23 32:32.077 --> 32:33.017 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like 150. 32:33.477 --> 32:34.698 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about an age gap. 32:35.118 --> 32:36.318 [SPEAKER_00]: And it comes up a lot. 32:36.398 --> 32:42.320 [SPEAKER_00]: It'd be it actually creates giant friction in the relationship because they don't understand each other at all. 32:42.360 --> 32:43.280 [SPEAKER_02]: They're nothing common. 32:43.340 --> 32:43.820 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't. 32:43.980 --> 32:44.260 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 32:44.420 --> 32:53.803 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that they're only together mostly because of circumstance because they're love of this place keeps them together. 32:53.983 --> 32:55.103 [SPEAKER_00]: They have that in common. 32:55.563 --> 32:59.004 [SPEAKER_00]: But once you get past that, what else is there? 32:59.024 --> 32:59.465 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 32:59.925 --> 33:02.506 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that creates a lot of friction in their relationship. 33:02.566 --> 33:11.690 [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think that, the core doctor of sets the relationship up as, you know, an example that anybody should be following by any means. 33:11.750 --> 33:12.030 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 33:12.810 --> 33:13.090 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 33:13.150 --> 33:15.791 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I could go on a whole tear about this. 33:15.851 --> 33:17.552 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not, I don't have a problem. 33:17.572 --> 33:19.033 [SPEAKER_02]: People have age gap relationship. 33:19.053 --> 33:19.313 [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. 33:19.653 --> 33:22.134 [SPEAKER_02]: But like my husband and I talk all the time about like, 33:22.478 --> 33:24.227 [SPEAKER_02]: How grateful were four months apart? 33:24.328 --> 33:24.670 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, nice. 33:24.750 --> 33:25.494 [SPEAKER_02]: We're from... 33:26.143 --> 33:28.725 [SPEAKER_02]: the same area in North Carolina about an hour part. 33:29.285 --> 33:31.326 [SPEAKER_02]: So we knew all the same bands. 33:31.987 --> 33:34.749 [SPEAKER_01]: Listen, so you know we didn't know each other growing up. 33:34.809 --> 33:39.231 [SPEAKER_01]: We saw so much connect us based on just those factors. 33:39.692 --> 33:48.497 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm always like, how do people who are like, so far apart and age relate, you don't have the same TV, same movies, same shows, all that. 33:48.517 --> 33:49.658 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, anyway. 33:49.798 --> 33:51.980 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, how does Leonardo DiCaprio keep doing it? 33:52.000 --> 33:55.302 [SPEAKER_00]: He keeps going younger and younger compared to his own age. 33:55.662 --> 33:56.242 [SPEAKER_02]: We were at a goal. 33:56.302 --> 33:58.503 [SPEAKER_02]: We were such a conversationalist. 33:59.103 --> 34:01.564 [SPEAKER_00]: Similarly, my wife and I actually met in high school. 34:01.784 --> 34:02.204 [SPEAKER_02]: Really? 34:02.544 --> 34:04.564 [SPEAKER_00]: So our first date, I was 15. 34:04.744 --> 34:05.044 [SPEAKER_02]: Uh-huh. 34:05.305 --> 34:07.185 [SPEAKER_00]: So talk about shared experiences. 34:07.205 --> 34:08.065 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. 34:08.285 --> 34:11.586 [SPEAKER_00]: We have been around together for a while. 34:11.786 --> 34:13.627 [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, have a lot in common. 34:13.647 --> 34:16.007 [SPEAKER_00]: And have a shorthand that is very comfortable. 34:16.207 --> 34:17.368 [SPEAKER_00]: And that I love. 34:19.409 --> 34:20.250 [SPEAKER_02]: It's great. 34:20.810 --> 34:29.358 [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to take that to talk about you and your work and what you're working on right now, and who is Phil? 34:30.059 --> 34:32.601 [SPEAKER_00]: So I am a writer and illustrator. 34:33.482 --> 34:43.050 [SPEAKER_00]: I am, as a few of your guests have been in the past, I am a board member for the nonprofit James Riverwriters and have been involved with them for 34:44.892 --> 34:51.978 [SPEAKER_00]: In my day job, I am an illustrator and designer for a company that makes puzzles, like jigsaw puzzles. 34:52.739 --> 34:57.563 [SPEAKER_00]: So I draw the things that get caught up into puzzles that people put together. 34:58.348 --> 35:23.964 [SPEAKER_00]: and okay so how do you decide like is there a science behind this i've never asked you this question i'm like is there no so well as far as i know okay i work with a product manager that has the whole line of puzzles that he works with the company owner and they kind of decide the subject matter i'm in the sports division 35:24.925 --> 35:31.911 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm drawing sports mascots in hockey players and football players and that sort of thing. 35:32.392 --> 35:36.935 [SPEAKER_00]: So I shouldn't say there's no to that question. 35:36.995 --> 35:38.036 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there any science behind it? 35:38.076 --> 35:47.244 [SPEAKER_00]: Because they are looking at metrics in terms of popular players or regions that have large following. 35:47.384 --> 35:47.584 [SPEAKER_00]: So 35:49.566 --> 35:50.386 [SPEAKER_00]: Should we do a puzzle? 35:50.426 --> 35:52.207 [SPEAKER_00]:

They're mascot that sort of thing. 35:52.727 --> 35:54.668 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but I don't make those decisions. 35:54.708 --> 36:00.551 [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, hey, we need, you know, This team's mascot to be drawn and so I draw it and we turn it into a puzzle. 36:00.831 --> 36:02.211 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, very cool. 36:02.311 --> 36:05.433 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I also want, okay, we did not get to the drink. 36:05.633 --> 36:06.053 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes 36:06.533 --> 36:11.559 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so Pina Coladas, I am like halfway done because it's so tasty. 36:11.639 --> 36:14.922 [SPEAKER_00]: So it is, I will admit, it is a bit of a gimmicky drink, right? 36:15.022 --> 36:17.605 [SPEAKER_00]: It's got the song, right? 36:18.166 --> 36:19.988 [SPEAKER_00]: But I will also admit, I've never had one before. 36:20.548 --> 36:21.049 [SPEAKER_01]: You haven't? 36:21.309 --> 36:26.314 [SPEAKER_00]: No, I picked it for both personal and thematic reasons for the book. 36:26.535 --> 36:26.855 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 36:27.115 --> 36:28.236 [SPEAKER_00]: I like rum-based drinks. 36:29.157 --> 36:33.020 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a huge coconut fan in both of those are in the drink. 36:33.160 --> 36:35.502 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you just never have had one. 36:35.702 --> 36:35.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 36:36.542 --> 36:37.343 [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually pretty good. 36:37.423 --> 36:38.323 [SPEAKER_02]: It's very good. 36:38.403 --> 36:38.684 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 36:39.084 --> 36:42.026 [SPEAKER_02]: And it has my other favorite ingredient, ingredient pineapple juice. 36:42.186 --> 36:42.426 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 36:43.027 --> 36:45.488 [SPEAKER_02]: So, I know, this is very good. 36:45.588 --> 36:46.429 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm enjoying it. 36:46.489 --> 36:46.949 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 36:47.370 --> 36:48.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm more of these in the future. 36:48.710 --> 36:50.892 [SPEAKER_02]: I think. 36:50.912 --> 36:54.514 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, first, first time I guess is had there a drink for the first time. 36:55.515 --> 37:19.277 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but the reason I picked it also is because right outside of the Tiki room at Disney World there is a Dolwip stand which Dolwip is a frozen kind of custardy pineapple dessert that I don't know if it's available wider now, but for a very long time you could only get it at a Disney World. 37:19.778 --> 37:20.819 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I did not. 37:21.286 --> 37:34.075 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so because Julius is murdered in the Tiki room and the Dolom stand is right outside the Tiki room near the the Robinson family like tree house. 37:34.095 --> 37:35.316 [SPEAKER_02]: The Robinson crucisess. 37:35.336 --> 37:37.818 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's where they're big tree house. 37:37.898 --> 37:40.480 [SPEAKER_00]: I figured it's also related to where he was killed. 37:40.760 --> 37:42.841 [SPEAKER_02]: All right, Pete, Julius, although he comes back. 37:43.041 --> 37:43.702 [SPEAKER_00]: He comes back. 37:43.722 --> 37:46.164 [SPEAKER_00]: He just loses like, you know, a week's worth of memories. 37:46.384 --> 37:48.125 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm really enjoying it. 37:51.418 --> 37:52.239 [SPEAKER_00]: I highly recommend them. 37:52.519 --> 37:55.401 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, did you drink like margaritas or I do like a margarita. 37:55.421 --> 37:56.042 [SPEAKER_02]: Like a mixed drink. 37:56.062 --> 37:57.283 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 37:57.663 --> 37:59.885 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't start drinking until I was a little older. 37:59.905 --> 38:00.365 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 38:00.605 --> 38:06.690 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't have a palette for most beers and things like that. 38:06.710 --> 38:10.934 [SPEAKER_00]: I like a sour beer, a lambic, that sort of thing. 38:11.374 --> 38:15.918 [SPEAKER_00]: But darkened stormy is kind of one of my regular go-tos with the other drink. 38:17.127 --> 38:28.118 [SPEAKER_00]: I her bill bloom that was built a dark and stormy when I was in his episode when it came out Yeah, I think oh hey nice shout out to Bill yeah, I do all of Bill's covers 38:28.902 --> 38:29.622 [SPEAKER_02]: So that's right. 38:29.702 --> 38:30.083 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 38:30.123 --> 38:31.063 [SPEAKER_02]: That's excellent. 38:31.203 --> 38:36.366 [SPEAKER_00]: So if anybody looks up Bill Bloom's books at this point, I have illustrated the designs. 38:36.766 --> 38:38.387 [SPEAKER_00]: I think all of the covers is now. 38:38.527 --> 38:38.727 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh. 38:39.287 --> 38:39.607 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 38:39.707 --> 38:40.348 [SPEAKER_02]: That's awesome. 38:40.748 --> 38:44.630 [SPEAKER_02]: Would you have anything coming up that you want to put a spotlight on or? 38:44.870 --> 38:49.292 [SPEAKER_00]: So I am writing my first novel for adults right now. 38:49.732 --> 38:52.514 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm hoping it will be out early next year. 38:53.014 --> 38:53.875 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a fantasy novel. 38:54.075 --> 38:54.415 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 38:55.075 --> 39:05.343 [SPEAKER_00]: I also have a literary agent that is kind of selling or showing around my kid's book stuff. 39:05.423 --> 39:14.930 [SPEAKER_00]: I write middle grade, science fiction and fantasy, and I also have a nonfiction biology book out right now that I co-wrote with my wife. 39:15.630 --> 39:16.631 [SPEAKER_02]: That's so cool. 39:16.731 --> 39:18.232 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what is that book about? 39:18.292 --> 39:19.113 [SPEAKER_02]: She didn't tell me that. 39:19.473 --> 39:19.994 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. 39:20.054 --> 39:26.158 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, hopefully it will sound Okay, maybe if this lots of people listen to this or have a platform enough to sell it. 39:26.198 --> 39:29.061 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it's it's called something big about biology. 39:29.221 --> 39:30.222 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and it's 39:31.002 --> 39:39.949 [SPEAKER_00]: It starts, it's comparative biology, starts with the small stuff, molecules how they work and basically how they build all the stuff that's alive. 39:41.010 -->

39:49.516 [SPEAKER_00]: And we co-wrote it together and I'm illustrating it and it's currently on submission with our literary agents. 39:50.036 --> 39:53.799 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've had a lot of jobs through the years. 39:53.859 --> 39:59.243 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, when you're creative as a profession, you do all kinds of different things. 39:59.643 --> 40:05.307 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is a period of five year period where I wrote the scripts for whiteboard explanatory videos. 40:05.687 --> 40:05.907 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 40:05.927 --> 40:08.189 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know those videos online where hand comes in and draws. 40:08.369 --> 40:08.729 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 40:08.849 --> 40:13.573 [SPEAKER_00]: And then a voice is like, this is how molecules work or whatever. 40:13.873 --> 40:16.075 [SPEAKER_00]: I wrote the scripts for those five years. 40:16.095 --> 40:17.456 [SPEAKER_00]: So like the thing that the person said, 40:19.601 --> 40:22.545 [SPEAKER_02]: Did you like, did you know what they were going to write? 40:22.765 --> 40:31.155 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so yeah, I would write the scripts first and then the storyboard artist would get my scripts and break down how they would. 40:31.315 --> 40:35.981 [SPEAKER_00]: And I would leave notes all over the script about like, oh, here include this kind of image. 40:36.408 --> 40:38.330 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I'm slow to the game. 40:38.390 --> 40:42.994 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not just familiar with these white, but you know the kind of videos I'm talking about. 40:43.034 --> 40:43.654 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah. 40:44.235 --> 40:52.002 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so I wrote a lot of videos about like how drugs work like the mode of action for drugs or cloud computing or that sort of thing. 40:52.042 --> 41:03.451 [SPEAKER_00]: So got quite a bit of experience with technical writing and so when it came time to work on this book with with Angie, she also trusted me to be able to do some of this, but she's also 41:04.212 --> 41:08.939 [SPEAKER_00]: you know, a doctor and like research biologists. 41:09.059 --> 41:13.225 [SPEAKER_00]: So I was going to her and being like, hey, we bounced chapters back and forth regularly. 41:13.726 --> 41:15.388 [SPEAKER_00]: And we worked together really well. 41:15.849 --> 41:16.390 [SPEAKER_02]: I bet. 41:16.470 --> 41:19.014 [SPEAKER_02]: So I thought, well, I guess not all couples do. 41:19.234 --> 41:22.318 [SPEAKER_00]: We mentioned it to people and they're like, oh, I could never write with any spouse. 41:22.579 --> 41:23.320 [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good boy. 41:23.340 --> 41:25.042 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it's good to know that. 41:25.262 --> 41:32.552 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, well, and now you know, and like the the book will sell and then we'll get book to. 41:32.773 --> 41:32.993 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 41:33.654 --> 41:35.036 [SPEAKER_02]: Where can people find you? 41:35.758 --> 41:51.707 [SPEAKER_00]: So I am an Instagram, just feel hylicker and sometimes I post a blue sky I need to do a more often because it is the one platform I trust and you can find me at James River writer events, James Riverwriters.org. 41:52.728 --> 42:02.814 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a bevy of great programs happening that cover everything from community building to craft and skills to business skills. 42:02.854 --> 42:08.318 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's a great organization that kind of hits it every kind of facet of a writer's life. 42:08.398 --> 42:08.998 [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. 42:09.058 --> 42:12.040 [SPEAKER_00]: I really believe in them as an organization and they do great work. 42:12.485 --> 42:13.105 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 42:13.326 --> 42:14.146 [SPEAKER_02]: I do too. 42:14.206 --> 42:19.330 [SPEAKER_02]: I think every time I made a writer and now in the this area, I'm like, are you with James for writers? 42:19.610 --> 42:20.431 [SPEAKER_00]: They should be. 42:20.451 --> 42:22.632 [SPEAKER_02]: You should be because they are incredible. 42:22.692 --> 42:24.313 [SPEAKER_00]: Next year's a 25th anniversary. 42:24.433 --> 42:25.474 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 42:25.514 --> 42:26.175 [SPEAKER_02]: What are you doing? 42:26.575 --> 42:34.581 [SPEAKER_00]: I know that there's going to the 25th anniversary conference will be happening, but I'm not sure what else will be doing celebrate yet since next year. 42:34.741 --> 42:37.222 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're still trying to pull off this year. 42:38.487 --> 42:40.849 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well arts organizations right now. 42:40.970 --> 42:41.250 [SPEAKER_02]: Woof! 42:41.510 --> 42:41.891 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 42:42.451 --> 42:42.711 [SPEAKER_02]: Tough. 42:42.952 --> 42:43.733 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 42:44.493 --> 42:46.055 [SPEAKER_02]: This has been incredible. 42:46.676 --> 42:48.598 [SPEAKER_02]: Several first in this episode. 42:48.618 --> 42:50.019 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very, I'm excited for it. 42:50.039 --> 42:50.900 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. 42:50.980 --> 42:52.301 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me. 42:52.342 --> 42:52.482 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 42:52.522 --> 42:52.842 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. 42:53.523 --> 42:53.963 [SPEAKER_02]: Cheers. 42:54.103 --> 42:54.564 [SPEAKER_00]: Cheers. 42:55.104 --> 42:55.345 [SPEAKER_02]: Did it? 42:58.672 --> 43:03.297 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for spending some time with me and my guests for an episode of Drinks in the Library. 43:03.917 --> 43:20.435 [SPEAKER_01]: For more information about the show, you can find us on Instagram at Drinks in the Library on the World Wide Web Drinks in the Library.com or shoot me an email at DrinksPod at gmail.com Until next time, cheers!