Full Transcript for I Guess That's Why They Call it the Twos: The UK's Runner-Up History at Eurovision

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Stephen Perkins 00:00:01 Hello, London, we are ready for your vote. Stephen Perkins 00:00:08 Hello, I'm Stephen Perkins and this is Douxpoint, the Eurovision podcast from the team behind Binge Watch. Stephen Perkins 00:00:13 It is Monday, 4th of November, and once again I am here to take a deep dive into an element of the contest's history. Stephen Perkins 00:00:19 But let's start, as we almost always do, with a look at the latest Eurovision news. Stephen Perkins 00:00:24 The big story from the last fortnight is, of course, the announcement that the Netherlands will be taking part in Eurovision 2025. Stephen Perkins 00:00:30 On the back of months of negotiations with the European Broadcasting Union and amid rumours that they were unlikely to be a part of next year's contest, Dutch broadcaster Avratross announced that they would be taking part after all. Stephen Perkins 00:00:41 They said in a statement that after months of discussions and consultations, the broadcaster has received sufficient guarantees from the EBU that structural changes will be implemented at the music festival. Stephen Perkins 00:00:51 Jus Klein was offered the opportunity to participate again, but in the end he chose to decline this offer. Stephen Perkins 00:00:56 Registrations for new songs for 2025 is now open. Stephen Perkins 00:00:59 Schustkline confirmed separately that he would not be part of the Dutch delegation next year, saying in his own statement that my team and I had everything ready, but it just does not feel good. Stephen Perkins 00:01:08 I am very thankful for the love all around the world. Stephen Perkins 00:01:10 However, I am still very affected by this year. Stephen Perkins 00:01:13 I need to give myself more time to heal. Stephen Perkins 00:01:15 It was my dream to do Eurovision and we did that for months. Stephen Perkins 00:01:18 I had this feeling that I needed to make a return to finish the job, but in reality we reached a higher goal. Stephen Perkins 00:01:23 Oiropapa United. Stephen Perkins 00:01:24 A lot of people. Stephen Perkins 00:01:25 This story is not just about me, it's about us. Stephen Perkins 00:01:28 I'm grateful. Stephen Perkins 00:01:29 In other news, Germany has announced a change to its national final format for 2025. Stephen Perkins 00:01:33 The new series Scheffsacker ESC 2025 We Are Singt ver Deutschland will run across four nights next year. Stephen Perkins 00:01:39 Organised jointly by RTL and ARD and overseen by Stefan Raab. Stephen Perkins 00:01:44 Three rounds of heats will run on RTL to whittle down the potential artists from an initial selection of 24 before the final on ARD selects the winner, with the decision coming down entirely to the viewers watching at home. Stephen Perkins 00:01:55 Australia has also announced their intention to compete at Eurovision again next year, despite a disappointing turnout for their 2024 entry. Stephen Perkins 00:02:01 1mil galley, 1blood by Electric Fields, which finished 11th in the first semi final with 41 points, missing out on qualifying by 6 points. Stephen Perkins 00:02:09 Broadcaster SBS confirmed that they will be competing in Basel in 2025 at their yearly upfront presentation last week 2025 will mark the 10th year of Australia participating at Eurovision and so far their best result remains their second place finish with Dami Im's Sound of Silence in 2016. Stephen Perkins 00:02:25 We currently have 35 nations confirmed to take part next year, with Poland and North Macedonia among the countries rumoured to also be competing, but not yet officially confirmed. Stephen Perkins 00:02:35 Now, much has been made of Sweden's victory in Liverpool in 2023, which brought them in line with Ireland to jointly hold the record for Eurovision wins at seven apiece. Stephen Perkins 00:02:43 But a Eurovision record which doesn't get quite so much attention is the country that has finished in second place the most times and that is the United Kingdom with a whopping 16 runner up finishes to our name. Stephen Perkins 00:02:53 To put that into context, our closest competitor for second place finishes is France, who have been the runner up just five times. Stephen Perkins 00:03:00 In other words, it's a record we're not likely to have stripped away from us anytime soon. Stephen Perkins 00:03:04 But why has the UK so often been fated to miss out on the top spot by a tiny margin? Stephen Perkins 00:03:09 I decided to go back and take a look at all 16 of our second place spots and the songs that bested them. Stephen Perkins 00:03:14 It didn't actually take us long to chalk up our first second place at Eurovision. Stephen Perkins 00:03:17 That happened in 1959 when we were participating at Eurovision for the second time and the contest itself was only on its fourth outing that year. Stephen Perkins 00:03:25 Our entry was the husband and wife duo of Pearl Carr and Teddy Johnson with Sing Little Birdie, a very good and catchy song that felt a little bit like something out of Disney's Mary Poppins and I think is perhaps the earliest example of the United Kingdom getting their staging right at Eurovision, given that Pearl and Teddy had the foresight to bring a little puppet birdie with them to unveil during the middle age. Stephen Perkins 00:03:44 Their clear chemistry and on point vocals clearly resonated with the juries that year, but not quite as much as in Beetje by Teddy Scholten from the Netherlands that year winner, which as I said on our potted history of the Netherlands earlier this year was a wonderful entry. Stephen Perkins 00:03:58 So I can't be too mad about this placing. Stephen Perkins 00:04:00 That year we were five points behind the winner, although that was quite a significant margin back in those days when There were only 11 countries competing and each jury only had a total of 10 points to award across the board. Stephen Perkins 00:04:11 So we got 16 points to the Netherlands 21. Stephen

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Perkins 00:04:14 This was the first of three consecutive second place finishes for the United Kingdom and the following year we were represented by soloist Brian Johnson with Looking High High High, which wasn't a drugs reference, disappointingly, but was in fact about being ditched by a lover and looking everywhere in the attempt to find them. Stephen Perkins 00:04:30 This was another strong effort from us. Stephen Perkins 00:04:31 I think it gets off to a fantastically jaunty start with a little whistling section and some powerful vocals, which have an air of musical theatre or maybe light opera about them. Stephen Perkins 00:04:40 For such a seemingly upbeat song, there's surprising morbidity in the lyrics. Stephen Perkins 00:04:43 One section of the chorus goes for if I, I, I don't find my love I know I shall die, die, die For I love her so. Stephen Perkins 00:04:50 But in terms of her mobility, it's definitely a strong contender. Stephen Perkins 00:04:53 That year we lost to France's Jacqueline Boyer with the song Tom Bilibi, a fun little number about an attractive man who also happens to be a compulsive liar. Stephen Perkins 00:05:02 We lost by seven points. Stephen Perkins 00:05:04 25, 32. Stephen Perkins 00:05:05 And as a little bonus, fun fact, having won the contest 64 years ago, Jacqueline is currently the longest surviving Eurovision winner, though at 83 years old, she is not yet the actual oldest. Stephen Perkins 00:05:15 That honour goes to Isabelle Aubrey, who won for France two years later and is currently 86. Stephen Perkins 00:05:20 This takes us on to 1961 and our third second place finish in a row from the Allisons with Are youe sure Now? Stephen Perkins 00:05:28 The Allisons were one of the early examples of duplicitous marketing in pop. Stephen Perkins 00:05:32 Since they were promoted as being brothers, they were not in fact related, but they look similar enough to make it a reasonable punt and a good sales angle. Stephen Perkins 00:05:38 This song feels very 1960s and I mean that in a good way. Stephen Perkins 00:05:41 It's all about the smooth vocals with the perfectly pitched harmonies. Stephen Perkins 00:05:44 And in much the same way as the previous year's entry, there's something a little bit darker behind the superficial jolliness of it. Stephen Perkins 00:05:50 This one is about them warning a lover that the grass may not in fact be greener. Stephen Perkins 00:05:54 On the other side that year we lost to Luxembourg's Jean Claude Pascal with Nous Les Amoureux. Stephen Perkins 00:05:59 And again, I've discussed this song on a previous podcast. Stephen Perkins 00:06:02 It's actually a coded reference to homosexuality, so obviously I'm not going to challenge that victory. Stephen Perkins 00:06:07 We were seven points behind the winner again, 24 points to 31, picking up votes from fewer countries than Luxembourg did, but getting higher individual scores, getting eight points from Luxembourg themselves and seven from Switzerland. Stephen Perkins 00:06:19 It was 1964 before we made it to second place again with Matt Munro's I Love the Little things. Stephen Perkins 00:06:24 Now, the 1964 contest is one of only two from which pretty much no video footage has survived, the other being the original contest in 1956. Stephen Perkins 00:06:32 So we don't quite have the full picture from which to evaluate this one, but I've done my best from the audio alone. Stephen Perkins 00:06:37 As you'd expect from Matt Munro, this is high quality crooning, a sweet love song, but perhaps ultimately a little bit unexciting. Stephen Perkins 00:06:44 It's one of those songs that's technically proficient and very well sung, but maybe lacking that certain je ne sais quoi that really makes a winner. Stephen Perkins 00:06:51 That year we lost to Italy's Giglio Le Cinechetti with Non Hor Letta, which has one of the biggest winning margins in Eurovision history, at least under the earlier voting systems. Stephen Perkins 00:07:00 Italy picked up 49 points to the UK's 17, meaning that despite us finishing second place, they got almost three times as many points as we did. Stephen Perkins 00:07:08 And to be fair, it's not hard to see why. Stephen Perkins 00:07:10 Giuliola, who at the age of 16 was the youngest winner of Eurovision until 13 year old Sandra Kim from Belgium came along in 1986, were singing a beautiful, delicate song about not being old enough to properly love someone. Stephen Perkins 00:07:21 And both the song and the performance were just in a completely different class. Stephen Perkins 00:07:25 So it's another case of nice try but no cigar for the United Kingdom, who at this point had still yet to win the contest. Stephen Perkins 00:07:31 Our fifth time of finishing second came the following year in 1965, with Kathy Kirby and I Belong. Stephen Perkins 00:07:37 This one really gets out of the gate at a full sprint with Kathy bellowing the song's main refrain within seconds of arriving on the stage. Stephen Perkins 00:07:44 It's another one of our entries that does feel very representative of the 60s in the sense that you definitely expect it to pop up on the soundtrack of Call the Midwife. Stephen Perkins 00:07:51 Kathy is a heck of a singer too, who really sells the track, and the song itself is catchy and upbeat, so it is easy to see why this one did do so well. Stephen Perkins 00:07:59 But we didn't really stand much of a chance against what turned out to be one of the contest's most iconic winners, Poupee des Cyr Poupee de Son by Frans Gall For Luxembourg. Stephen Perkins 00:08:07 We were only six points off the win though, with 26 points to 32. Stephen Perkins 00:08:11 Our next runner up finish came in 1968 and I think we are now entering the era of entries which have stood the test of time. Stephen Perkins 00:08:17 Slightly better since I think a lot of the ones coming up are much better remembered. Stephen Perkins 00:08:21

We start with Cliff Richard and Congratulations, Surely a song that just about everyone with a passing knowledge of Eurovision in this country will know seeing it in its original context is definitely upbeat, bouncy and a lot of fun. Stephen Perkins 00:08:34 Although if it had been up to me, I would have vetoed the brief spell in the last third of the song where they slow the tempo and allow Cliff to do some vague kind of chorus line style kick, which doesn't really land that well at all. Stephen Perkins 00:08:45 That year we were riding the wave of our first ever win and we were hotly tipped to pick up a second consecutive one. Stephen Perkins 00:08:50 But instead we lost to Spain's Marciel with La La La by a margin of just one point, our closest loss so far. Stephen Perkins 00:08:57 You can probably argue the toss between these two, depending on your personal preference. Stephen Perkins 00:09:01 For me, Spain just about takes it for having the more earwormy chorus, but I can see arguments for both sides. Stephen Perkins 00:09:07 Our next second place finish came along in 1970 with Mary Hopkins. Stephen Perkins 00:09:11 Knock knock. Stephen Perkins 00:09:11 Who's there? Stephen Perkins 00:09:12 This one is quite an interesting one. Stephen Perkins 00:09:14 It's not entirely unusual to have an artist distance themselves from their Eurovision entry in later years, as we've seen from the likes of Sandy Shaw and Franz Gall. Stephen Perkins 00:09:22 But this song about giving up on love and then it showing up right when you least expect it to was very much a digression from Mary's usual style and she wasn't really a fan of it. Stephen Perkins 00:09:30 And honestly, I can't help but think that does come across in the performance. Stephen Perkins 00:09:34 She sings it beautifully and there is a lovely melodic line behind the Door is always open wide in the chorus, but it is hard to make up much of a connection between the artist and the material. Stephen Perkins 00:09:43 There's no real animation behind her eyes. Stephen Perkins 00:09:45 It's hard not to think that she is actually phoning it in a little bit, especially when you've seen what Mary Hopkin is really capable of. Stephen Perkins 00:09:50 We lost by six points that year to Dana's All Kinds Of Everything, picking up Ireland's first win in the competition. Stephen Perkins 00:09:56 And Dana definitely had the edge in really being able to sell the song right down the camera lens. Stephen Perkins 00:10:00 We didn't have to wait long for another second place finish. Stephen Perkins 00:10:03 The next one came in 1972 with Becky Steal Or Borrow by the New Seekers. Stephen Perkins 00:10:08 The band were on something of a hot streak at this point, having had a massive hit in multiple countries the previous year with I'd Like To Teach the World to Sing. Stephen Perkins 00:10:14 So sending them to Eurovision must have seemed like an absolute slam dunk. Stephen Perkins 00:10:18 Beg,

Steal or Borrow is one of those songs that opens in the audio equivalent of in medias res with a quick burst of half a chorus before going into the Main verse. Stephen Perkins 00:10:26 It's a pretty catchy tune, but I think by this point in our Eurovision career, this particular style of song does start to feel a little bit derivative. Stephen Perkins 00:10:33 In 1972, we lost to Luxembourg's Vicki Leandros with Apretoire by a margin of 14 points. Stephen Perkins 00:10:41 Although at this point in the evolution of the competition, the scoring system was one where every entry received a score of between 2 and 10 points from each other country. Stephen Perkins 00:10:49 So that doesn't feel like quite such a wide margin in that context. Stephen Perkins 00:10:52 As for the winning entry that year, it is a big, stirring ballad and I think in terms of having a stronger and more memorable chorus, Luxembourg did best us on that occasion. Stephen Perkins 00:11:00 In 1975, we sent the Shadows to Eurovision, presumably with the thinking being that we'd done so well with Cliff Richard, we might as well send his former backing band and see how that went. Stephen Perkins 00:11:09 In the overall picture of our runner up efforts, this one does feel like a pronounced change in our approach. Stephen Perkins 00:11:14 It's rockier and the performance itself feels looser, more spontaneous, more like something you see at an actual gig than at Eurovision itself. Stephen Perkins 00:11:21 I don't say that as a criticism, but it might be the reason that didn't quite make it over the line. Stephen Perkins 00:11:25 And it is an interesting example of one of the very few occasions in which the UK's runner up entry actually felt more contemporary than the overall winner, which on this occasion was the Netherlands Teach in with Ding a Dong. Stephen Perkins 00:11:36 Their performance, however, was a lot more bombastic and showy and the song was probably more memorable, so I can see why that ended up resonating that little bit more with the juries. Stephen Perkins 00:11:44 So they picked up 152points to R138, despite being in the arguably non advantageous position of being the first song performed on the night. Stephen Perkins 00:11:53 After another win for the United Kingdom in 1976, the title of our entry for 1977, Rock Bottom by Lindsey De Paul and Mike Moran, pretty much summed up the level of enthusiasm at the BBC for another win. Stephen Perkins 00:12:04 They weren't particularly keen on the prospect of staging the contest two years in a row, especially since the 1977 contest had been beleaguered by strikes and logistical issues. Stephen Perkins 00:12:12 As a result, they didn't particularly get behind that year's entry with any great enthusiasm, despite it being a hot favourite to win, which might be the reason it only ended up in second place, although I'd argue another reason is that the vocals on the night were a little bit shaky. Stephen Perkins 00:12:25 It is still a fun track though, with duelling pianos With Lindsay and Mike sitting back to back, they ended up losing out to France's Marie Miriam with Loiseau et l'Enfant, which landed 136 points to our 121. Stephen Perkins 00:12:37 France definitely had the edge on us vocally and this one ended up being France's last win to date at the contest. Stephen Perkins 00:12:44 The post 1977 period marks our longest spell without a second place finish at Eurovision up until that point. Stephen Perkins 00:12:50 Anyway, we didn't manage a runner up position again until 1988 in Dublin with Scott Fitzgerald's Go Scott is, if memory serves, the last Scottish singer to represent the United Kingdom, which is fairly shocking when you think about it, and he was performing this throaty power ballad with a swooping plaintiff chorus. Stephen Perkins 00:13:06 It also happened to be written by Judy Forsyth, daughter of Bruce, which meant there were quite a few shots of Brucey in the audience looking a little bit antsy as the results came in. Stephen Perkins 00:13:14 This was one of our more infamous losses given that we were in the lead going into the final round of voting, five points ahead of Switzerland, who were of course represented that year by Celine Dion with Ne Partais Pain sans Moi. Stephen Perkins 00:13:25 There were gasps in the arena when Yugoslavia, the final country to vote, awarded Switzerland six points, putting them one point ahead. Stephen Perkins 00:13:32 And ultimately they didn't give the United Kingdom anything at all, meaning we lost by the narrowest of margins, 137points to 136. Stephen Perkins 00:13:40 And I mean you can't exactly look back at best selling, multi award winning recording artist Celine Dion and make a retrospective argument that she didn't deserve to win the Eurovision Song on contest, can you? Stephen Perkins 00:13:50 And even if she didn't have the post contest career to back it up, I still think Ne Partez Pas son Moi is the better track of the two. Stephen Perkins 00:13:56 But Scott did end up with a Eurovision legacy of his own. Stephen Perkins 00:13:59 His son Kai co wrote Monsters for Finland's Sara Aalto in 2018. Stephen Perkins 00:14:03 Despite this blow to our Eurovision winning hopes, we came back fighting in 1989 with Live Report and why Do I Always get it Wrong? Stephen Perkins 00:14:10 Possibly a meta comment on our track record in the contest at this point. Stephen Perkins 00:14:14 This one was a synth heavy rock ballad about the ending of a relationship. Stephen Perkins 00:14:17 It was extremely earnest with some slightly wobbly harmonies happening in the background. Stephen Perkins 00:14:21 And it's an interesting one to compare to the winner, Yugoslavia's Reva with Rock Me because they couldn't be more different. Stephen Perkins 00:14:27 Rock Me is unashamedly cheesy with multiple keytars on display. Stephen Perkins 00:14:31 It's very much the sort of song that people think wins

Eurovision but it's not necessarily the sort of song that actually does. Stephen Perkins 00:14:36 But on this occasion they triumphed 137 points to 130, perhaps thanks to a chorus that was incredibly catchy, even if you don't speak Croatian. Stephen Perkins 00:14:45 I can imagine that UK fans would have been slightly miffed to lose to a song that felt a lot more lightweight, but it's still an incredibly fun, memorable track. Stephen Perkins 00:14:52 And it was also Yugoslavia's first and last win at Eurovision, so I can't really begrudge them that. Stephen Perkins 00:14:57 After some slightly disappointing results over the next two years, 1992 saw us bringing out the big guns in the form of West End leading man Michael Ball. Stephen Perkins 00:15:05 With one step out of time, you can see how seriously we were taking it this year with the pop rock arrangement of the song and the dramatic light show we unleash as he walks onto the stage. Stephen Perkins 00:15:13 And obviously Michael Ball was an extremely safe pair of hands vocally. Stephen Perkins 00:15:17 That said, I'm not sure he ever fully convinces as a pop singer in this specific environment, the dancing is a little bit self conscious. Stephen Perkins 00:15:24 At the very least. Stephen Perkins 00:15:26 He landed 139 points to take the runner up spot behind Ireland's Linda Martin in first place with Wi Me, which got 155. Stephen Perkins 00:15:34 And although you can definitely say we were in it to win it this year, here, there's only so much you can do against a song written by the mighty two time champion Johnny Logan, sung by an extremely talented singer right on the cusp of Ireland entering their domination era. Stephen Perkins 00:15:46 We tried hard again in 1993, sending bubbly Scouse star Sonya with better the Devil youl Know. Stephen Perkins 00:15:51 It's a song that I love, but I think it's also a song that feels a little bit dated even in its own historical context, particularly in an era when Eurovision judges loved nothing more than the big old ballad. Stephen Perkins 00:16:02 I think the song's success, much as it was, can be largely chalked up to Sonya herself, who delivers an incredibly assured performance, vocally on point, comfortable on stage, effortlessly charming into the cameras, and I think that does a lot to cover up the weaknesses in the song itself. Stephen Perkins 00:16:15 That said, it wasn't enough to overcome the might of Ireland's Niamh Kavanagh with the stirring ballad in youn Eyes, the many virtues of which I did explore in our previous episode. Stephen Perkins 00:16:24 She scored 187 points to R160, a margin of 23 points. Stephen Perkins 00:16:30 Going into the final round of voting. Stephen Perkins 00:16:32 We would have needed to get 12 points and for Ireland to get nothing from Malta. Stephen Perkins 00:16:35 And in the end, the Reverse happened, leaving Ireland pulling out comfortably in front. Stephen Perkins 00:16:39 We've got just two

songs left and the penultimate is from 1998. Stephen Perkins 00:16:43 Imani's Where Are you? Stephen Perkins 00:16:45 Honestly, I think if I had to name the UK second placer at Eurovision that gets forgotten the most, I'd stake my money on it being this one. Stephen Perkins 00:16:51 I think it maybe gets overlooked because we'd won the year before. Stephen Perkins 00:16:54 So it does get a little bit swept up in the general wave of Katrina mania around that era and our enthusiasm, enthusiasm about being the ones to host the show in 1998. Stephen Perkins 00:17:02 It's interesting that this one gets forgotten because I think it's one of the last examples of us sending something that sounded extremely of the moment and doing well with it. Stephen Perkins 00:17:10 It's an absolute banger with great vocals and it's very much a shame that it doesn't often get the credit that it's due. Stephen Perkins 00:17:16 Imani took 166 points, but lost to Israel's Dhana International with Diva, who took the top prize with 172. Stephen Perkins 00:17:24 Obviously Dhana's win wasn't iconic moment for multiple reasons, but I do think the vocals on her track aren't quite as strong as Amani's. Stephen Perkins 00:17:30 We're splitting hairs between two great songs in this instance, though, and I do think that Donna's song had the better outro of the two, so maybe that's what swung it. Stephen Perkins 00:17:38 And that brings us to the Most recent example, 2022. Stephen Perkins 00:17:42 Sam Ryder and Spaceman Sam, of course, came onto the scene at the point where we'd long given up hope of the UK ever hitting the heights at Eurovision ever again. Stephen Perkins 00:17:51 It came on the back of us having scored zero points under a voting system where we'd been all but assured it was impossible to do that. Stephen Perkins 00:17:58 And so Sam was announced as our entrant quietly on the Radio two Mid morning show without much in the way of fanfare. Stephen Perkins 00:18:05 But the song was catchy. Stephen Perkins 00:18:06 Sam was incredibly charming and crucially, he was a hell of a live performer. Stephen Perkins 00:18:10 And we suddenly found ourselves in the running for the first time in a long time. Stephen Perkins 00:18:14 The UK suddenly realised we had an opportunity that wasn't to be squandered. Stephen Perkins 00:18:17 So we put the effort in and even got the staging right for once. Stephen Perkins 00:18:20 The audience were even singing along in the arena, which was pretty much unheard of for a UK entry. Stephen Perkins 00:18:25 Of course, the timing couldn't have been worse for us, because this was the year that all of the smart money was on Ukraine's Kalysh Orchestra with Stefania, a time when people across the world, who had felt powerless at the news of the Russian invasion, grabbed hold of the opportunity to send a message and delivered Ukraine one of the most decisive victories the contest has ever seen. Stephen Perkins 00:18:44 Although the UK won the jury vote by 25 points over our nearest rivals Sweden, Ukraine romped Homer in the televote with a whopping 439 points, a full 200 points clear of Moldova in second place, and beat us in the overall leaderboard with 631 points to our 466. Stephen Perkins 00:19:01 But of course we know now the UK and Ukraine would be united the following year when we staged Eurovision in Liverpool on their behalf. Stephen Perkins 00:19:08 And even if Sam Ryder didn't win, he got the UK excited about the contest for the first time in decades. Stephen Perkins 00:19:14 And somehow that sense of optimism seems to be remaining despite some slightly lacklustre results in 2023 and 2024. Stephen Perkins 00:19:22 So that's it for this episode. Stephen Perkins 00:19:23 Thank you as always for listening. Stephen Perkins 00:19:25 I will be back with another update in a fortnight's time when we will be taking a look at the Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2024. Stephen Perkins 00:19:32 Don't forget, you can follow us on Twitter bingewatch Score Pod for updates from us and our sister podcast Binge Watch. Stephen Perkins 00:19:38 And I'm there too. Stephen Perkins 00:19:39 Tevenperkins. Stephen Perkins 00:19:40 You should definitely also subscribe on your podcast platform of choice to ensure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. Stephen Perkins 00:19:46 And if you've enjoyed this one or any of our other episodes, we'd very much love it if you could leave us a nice review to help us in the old algorithm. Stephen Perkins 00:19:52 Until next time, good night Europe and good morning Australia.

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