TRANSCRIPT 🔗
Introducing Discovery Dialogues, a new podcast from Vanderbilt Graduate School that takes you inside the dynamic world of graduate research and scholarship. From academic discoveries to personal journeys, Discovery Dialogue shines a spotlight on the remarkable contributions of Vanderbilt's graduate community.
And welcome to Discovery Dialogues, a podcast devoted to trainees about their discoveries in research, Vanderbilt University resources, and themselves. I'm your host, Nick Hyer, Program Manager for Graduate and Postdoc Academic Success. And today I'm here with Caleb Kobosh, PhD candidate in religion. Thanks for joining me today, Caleb.
Thanks for the opportunity. This is really fun. I'm happy to chat with you.
I'm so glad you're here. So, tell me a little bit about what made you decide to come to Vanderbilt.
The biggest thing was the faculty. The people who are working here, especially in history of historical studies of religion, just great intellectuals, great scholars, their work fit exactly what I wanted to do. And then, with an interest that I had around madness in early modern England, fit really well with some of the psychology work that was being done in the graduate department of religion. So yeah, the faculty are the biggest reason.
The second thing would be the funding. It was really great, the opportunity to go to conferences, a cohort model I was able to be a part of with the Theology in Practice program, so having four people to work through this together from different perspectives, none of them in historical studies besides myself, but I thought it was a great opportunity, an emphasis in that way on taking my research and giving some practical theological education component to it, and I've really appreciated that.
Awesome. Thank you. And why don't you tell us a little bit about your research?
I'm looking at late 17th century England into the early 18th century, but it really all goes back to sort of the English civil wars in the 1640s and thereabouts. And what happens with religion politics in those conflicts, how religion becomes a source in some ways of radicalizing viewpoints, which is not the main cause. I mean, there's a lot of argument around it, but leads to the violence of the civil wars. And then the fallout of that on both sides, the different purges that happen.
So after the civil war, you have the rise of the Puritans win. They take control. Cromwell is installed during the interregnum. And so those ideas, policies around the church, around what religion should look like in England, get the green light.
And then a little bit later in 1660, when the monarch is brought back, Charles II, you have a purge in the other way, where now the ceremonialists, perhaps one way of describing it in the period- what we think of today is Anglicanism- comes back in full force and then purges out the guys who had purged them. And in that- the conflict back and forth, religion and politics. But also this idea of enthusiasm, which is trying to define a moderate religion, a moderate politics. And by doing that, then you have to decide who are the extremes. And that was described as enthusiasts, which was kind of the same thing as calling someone mad or crazy. And so, looking at the polemics around that and the religious component specifically in it, how that's being defined and around what terms, I found really fascinating.
The person I found who is a great way to do this is someone called George Trosse. He's born 1631 and lives all the way until 1713. And he shifts throughout all of those different periods. Or when I say different: he lives through the Civil War. Alive in the interregnum. He sees the monarchy restored and then the glorious revolution, 1689. Not a full purge the other way, but some political changes again. And he is living through that and making choices and decisions around that. As well, in the 1650s, he has what we would call today a mental illness, an emotional breakdown where he's hearing voices, he's seeing visions. That becomes a key part of this autobiography he writes in his 60s, as he reflects on his life.
When he starts out he as a young man, he's very zealous about the ceremonialist perspective on religion in England. Sort of i think the best way to think of it is maybe the Anglican, or just very high church, and he's very zealous about that- is sort of frustrated with the Puritans. He's in Exeter. There's a lot of Puritan power there. His family, while he doesn't really admit it, is very much involved in the Puritan networks in Exeter. And they're not themselves Puritan, but he knows this very well. He doesn't like it. He resists it. And he's not wanting to be a minister or anything like that. His goal is set to become a merchant. He moves to France for a while. I think he's 14 years old. So, they're starting very young. He's in France; he's learning the language; he's training to be a merchant. London- making connections; he joins the wool and drapers company. He then goes to Portugal. He's working with a Portuguese merchant to learn the trade, to sort of set himself up, become very wealthy.
And in all of that, he falls into a crisis. So, without going into too many details, there's a conflict about the payment that's being sent over to cover his expenses. His master, as he calls him- the Portuguese merchant- says he's been a complete fraud and threatens to undo everything he's done. I mean, he's almost two years into it at this point. And Tross steps back and decides the easiest way to deal with this is to go home to England and just accept- you know, count his losses. And while he's there, he's heading home. He finds the Jesuit college in Lisbon, Portugal, which was set up by Catholics, English Catholics, as a way to train English ministers to go back and clandestinely “unreform” England. And so there's a lot of politics around that. And he tours it. He's really intrigued by it. Considering maybe he should come there and be a part
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of it.
But alas, it doesn't happen. He's back in England. And his life kind of falls apart. He's pretty wealthy. His family is connected. He had a grandfather who was a mayor of Exeter. So he's got a lot to fall back on. But he does... he's drinking, he makes some decisions that put himself in danger politically by supporting some royalists who are still around town. And all of this creates a lot of guilt, a lot of trouble for him. He wakes up one morning and is just completely undone. He's starting to hear voices. He is seeing visions. A big part of it is that he thinks he's hearing God's voice condemning him. And so, his family members, they see him in the hall. He's got his clothes sort of torn off. Typical examples- maybe he's doing this in his autobiography- but what madness looks like in that period.
Through that, family and friends learn about this madhouse in Glastonbury. They want to take him there because, and this is one of the earliest examples we know in English history- of a place where there's someone there who's a doctor who can care for him. They make arrangements, they get him there. The whole time- it's very vivid descriptions that he gives of the devil attacking him and trying to take him down, take him to hell, as he says. A lot of fear, a lot of guilt. He gets there, and a shift starts to happen.
While these early madhouses, what we... most of them are run by- well, the one we know of, Napier, is this mad doctor- not a Puritan in any way, but this madhouse Trosse is a part of seems to be very connected to Puritans, if not run by Puritans. And when they meet him, they immediately see what he sees as kind of his moral failing; his life falling apart as a dark night of the soul- kind of that Martin Luther, very reformed, like he's just wrestling in his conscience because God is trying to connect with him. And he's resisting that. So to make a long and very vivid story short, they begin to give him a lot of encouragement. He argues back and forth with like, no, I've committed the unpardonable sin. I'm undone. He's suicidal at this point.
And he describes this Puritan gentlewoman who just keeps writing him letters- who says a hundred odd proofs of hope, and why he should continue through. It's all very much a part of this Puritan spirituality. While he resists it, he eventually starts to give in and he also starts to heal- in the way we would describe it today. He, essentially through Puritan spirituality, works himself out of his fits of madness as he would say- the visions and voices. This proud ceremonialist, as he says, becomes a Puritan in the late 1650s.
He's still a little bit melancholy; says he decides he's going to go to Oxford, which at this point is the height of Cromwell's reign. It's a very Puritan place to study. He's there- he's almost done with the Master of Arts. He would be very well regarded, like set up to be a minister. When 1660 happens, Charles II is brought back and there's a reverse purge. So now after he's made the shift, England shifts the other way. And all of these guys he's come to love and respect at Oxford are kicked out of the church, kicked out of the university.
I say all of this to get back to: he's had this experience of madness. He's found himself shifting. Now he heads back to Exeter. He can't take a degree. He can't be involved in the church. He can't pursue ordination. And he's got to make sense along with all of these, what become known as English dissenters, are all trying to figure out: what is their identity? Who are they? How do they fit in this national cult? Because there's no separation of religion and politics- it's all so much a part of the same thing. As he's wrestling through that, he's heading back to Exeter, where the whole thing started.
And yes, again, to skip a lot of details and get to sort of my research, is around his decision in 1665 with another pretty direct attack on these ministers. He's working with the non-conformists to push them out. At least it's called the Five Mile Act- five miles away from where they had been living and ministering- to try to break up those Puritan networks that were still alive and well in the Restoration. And Tross becomes a key person to go to, because he has Oxford training. He is well-equipped to be a minister, but he's not ordained or known by the authorities. So he again, this clandestine religious sabotage, if you will, they come to him and say, “Would you consider being ordained? And you could minister to our people, while the rest of us are put out of town.”
That's kind of how he ministers then until 1689, which is the Glorious Revolution. A lot of people like him are hoping for the church to open up the doors and let them all back in and have a Protestant unification. That never happens.
But what they do come to, is this idea of toleration. The identity so far, a lot of these... a Puritan legacy essentially, although they're not Puritans at this point. They're trying to figure out- they've always been committed to the Church of England. How do we live in England, minister in England- as Presbyterians- when we're not allowed back in? Or we would never stoop to the levels we're being asked to, as the way they would see it, to be a part of the church, but we still believe we're part of the moderate, evangelistic core of what it means to be an English Protestant.
He decides to just become a dissenting minister. He's ministering to a church in Exeter, and that's when he writes his autobiography.That circles back to this madness, because now he looks at the madness in the 1650s as a way to interpret everything that's happened in England. He describes to us this idea of like, what do you make of what's happened?
He sees a lot of the Anglicans- while he thinks a lot of them are great and very moderate- he is afraid that for many of them, their emphasis on moralism, as opposed to... So, he's more evangelistic in that he wants people to acknowledge their sinfulness,
go through the same process that he did- of the dark night of the soul. This conversion is sort of how we describe it. And he feels that the moralism is just sort of too rational and too much just like the classics and the literature of the Greeks and Latin texts- don't have anything uniquely Christian about them in his terms.
Then on the other side, he sees people like the Quakers, who in a lot of ways, come from that same Puritan lineage, that same focus on the spirit, communion with God, but he sees them as too far, and he directly calls them enthusiasts. And he says, “I know what they're... what they're doing- these visions that they had.” And of course, this is a smear campaign against the Quakers, so he's not accurately portraying them. But, “they were crazy, just like I was in the 1650s.” That language about madness and religion become intertwined in a way where he's now looking at a group of people- who in many ways he has a great deal of similarities- but saying, “The way to explain them, is that they are hearing voices and seeing visions. And they just don't know how to discern it”, as he learned to in Glastonbury.
So he gives his perspective on all of this. And what comes out of it, you just see the way religion and politics- although at this period, there was no separation of the two- how they’re influencing working together and also how ideas around people- marginalized people specifically- some of these religious polemics, these religious ideas play into how, even in this early 17th century, we're understanding madness- mental difference and mental illness as we say today.
I found it sort of fascinating to explore this narrative, explore how he's making sense, forming an identity for English Presbyterians through his own life and personal narrative.
The other thing I would add is just so with this, while we think... in the United States at the time is still very much American colonies. But this idea is picked up and transferred almost immediately to the early American evangelicals.
So, the one name people will know is Jonathan Edwards, or a lot of people do, for his “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”, which many people read in English class. But Jonathan Edwards read this autobiography by George Trosse. And among many narratives like it, he sees this as the perfect example of the kind of spirituality and the kind of narrative of a moderate evangelical existence that he wants to encourage.
I think, again, you still see, and Jonathan Edwards is wrestling with who's mad, who is a reasonable engager with religion. And Trosse is another example for him of reasonable religion, but yet it has these dark nights of the soul, the loss of reason, and he's putting this all together. But once again, we see religion, politics, ways of viewing people, how even in the polemical context can be so intertwined and related to each other.
And so, yes, I'm working through that- exploring religion, politic, madness, and trying to piece it, pull
it apart, and understand how they thought about it in the early modern world.
What an interesting character to find to navigate all of those things. Tell me a little bit about how you found George Trosse?
Early on, when I was coming to Vanderbilt, I, you know, just looking through sources and just trying to pull together everything I could on early modern English madness. And there's a lot of narrative, especially when you look at Puritan literature, around what we call conversion. And it's a little bit anachronistic, but there's so many narratives of people- lives- that they've written. And Trosse was one that came up. And it was interesting how he was framed. Some of it, when I saw it, I was picking up on the interpretive editing side of his life, as it was presented by his predecessors. But they fit him in this context of sort of an Augustinian life, of moving from this really “profligate living,” as they called him, into a “godly,” is the term that was used, minister of the gospel in Exeter.
It was fascinating- the parallels- and i was curious about it, but moved away from it and then after my exams, as I entered candidacy and was putting together the proposal, I came back to him and thought, it's interesting that no one has looked at his narrative, his first-hand account of madness in much depth. I wonder what's going on here and how this Presbyterian minister is making sense of what's happening in his brain, what's happening in his soul, what's happening, you know, culturally? How does he interpret it? What does he make of the fact that he's very clearly hearing voices, seeing visions, knows he's out of his mind, is really tortured by it? And yes, and there's so much that he gives us in his narrative- of just the details of being there, how much suffering he experienced, and also the spiritual ways he works out of it.
So, I thought this could be fascinating and I was encouraged by my advisors to go for it, so that's what I did. And it was great advice. Again, the faculty are wonderful and really have aided me and, yeah, It's turned out, I think, to be a very fascinating study.
Yeah, well, you've already talked about so much within the research, but what are some particular discoveries that you've made since your time at Vanderbilt?
This maybe seems obvious, but just how much our understanding, even today, is shaped by religious ideas, or it could be cultural. Not everyone is coming at things from an explicitly religious standpoint, but I still think in our world today, religion has shaped culture, has shaped ideas so much. Even with something like mental health- while we think of ourselves as so much more progressive and ahead of- I think there's a lot of things we could still be reflective around and through the lens of religion.
Michel Foucault is one who comes to mind, who's maybe been a... He's upset a lot of the narrative, maybe for good and for bad. But I think one question he does raise is: how much the idea of being caring, considerate, helpful to people who are struggling. And he's looking at the asylum and the birth of the asylum, really. But in that context is still, in his estimation, even through all the progressive language and lens, just a form of control and particularly a religious control. As he looks at like Took's Asylum and the York Retreat.
I think a big discovery is just how much religion is still, for good and for bad, just to be able to be reflective, about how religion has shaped the way we view marginalized people, the way we view mental health. And to reflect on that to some degree, I have found that throughout my research, that it's very much they're interconnected and need to be pulled apart, if we're going to understand it.
Would you say they're more or less interconnected now?
I think more. Yeah. I think when I came into the research, I had maybe a typical perspective- what I was going to see is: George Trosse was someone who was going through what we call mental illness today, but he's just using spiritual language to describe it and that he wouldn't be aware of what was going on in his body and his brain.
But yet, when I read his narrative, he was actually a lot more aware of the fact that his brain was involved in it. He was a lot more willing to acknowledge that medicine, and it's 17th century medicine, but was important to the cure. But he also added this layer of spirituality to it, which I found really interesting.
So I hope I've answered your question: more, I think, more and more informed even the way I think- I know this is always dangerous and opens the door for a lot of anachronism- but even thinking about the present and how we think about mental health, and caring for those who are going through mental illness, that it is really important to be reflective about the cultural or religious assumptions that we have, and how those impact the way we think about people who are really suffering from whatever it might be, but especially mental illness.
You talk about how aware he was in what was happening to him. Do you think in the moment he was aware, or do you think it was upon reflection that he was able to incorporate some of the other aspects?
That's a really hard question to answer, and in some ways it's a question I've been wrestling with right now as I've been revising my dissertation. Part of the reason it's hard to answer is because he's writing about madness that happens to him in the 1650s, in the 90s. And he's writing about madness that happened to him when he was a ceremonialist, to use the language of the day, when he's become, at the time, he's become a dissenting minister in England and has a very clear agenda of how he wants to communicate religion and English moderate religion. So, I kind of have to read his narrative and pull that apart. Like what bits of it are, can we say, this is how he's thinking about madness in the 1650s, and what parts of it are telling us this is how he thinks about madness in the
1690s, in a very particular polemical context, to make a point of what England should do as a nation and how it should respond to all the tensions that are going on at the time.
So, to answer your question, how aware is he of what's happening? I think when he's falling into madness, he's very aware of what's happening, but he's interpreting it through a very different lens, where at the time, is sort of the best way I can think to describe it, is this idea of moral failure.
And you can imagine, if you came back to England, and you're sort of still rooting for the royalists- but Cromwell is in charge and everything had shifted- madness, in a way, is kind of confirming that they were right, and you were on the wrong side of history, as we say today. And you've kind of put your bets in the wrong place. I think from that perspective, he's just kind of becoming undone and defeated and just sees himself as run into a brick wall. I think he genuinely thinks Satan is sort of taking him away. Whether that's true or not is a hard, I mean, no, I don't think Satan was literally taking him away. But that's sort of the narrative and the way, yeah, what do we do with that? How much can we understand about his 1650s perspective? It's really tricky.
Yeah, I talk with students a lot about this idea that we can't always connect the dots in the moment, but it's much easier to connect the dots backwards once we've been through it. I think Trosse is another example of how he was able to weave an incredible story when he looked back on his life. Caleb, your passion for your subject exudes. Tell me a little bit about what you enjoy most about being a graduate student.
While being a graduate student has moments where you feel overwhelmed, you feel busy, you feel like, wow, I will be glad to finally complete this degree. What I found myself to be really thankful for, though, and to remind myself of, is the opportunity I have right now to be paid to just research and to do something I absolutely love. And I think that will probably never happen in the same way again, where I'm just given the resources of a great university, libraries, funding to go to conferences, a whole group of faculty who are just there to attend to my every need, help me understand the context of the period, ask them questions, meet with me, grab coffee and I think that's really great- just to have the time the privilege to nerd out and make that my primary source of income right now is really awesome. I don't want to ever lose gratitude for that, or just the awareness of how incredible it is to have six years to do that.
Awesome. And you talked a little bit about this when you started but tell me a little bit about what the challenges have been for you.
So here, I think the challenges are a lot, becoming a graduate student. I taught for five years in public schools before I went back to grad school. I think wrestling with my identity- so knowing what it was like to be a professional who is teaching and you sort of interact in that sphere. When you become a grad student, it's a little bit different. So, you're a student, but you're still a grad student, a PhD student, so there's a professional nature to it. But trying to figure out who you are and how you act in different situations can be really tricky.
I think along with that as well, is the desire to impress. I think especially at a place like Vanderbilt, when you're working with your heroes you've read, you know, they've written the books that you've read and learned from, and why you're in the place that you're in. And you really want them to like you and to be impressed by you. So, I guess without getting into too much of... just that identity and the rest like: Who are you? How do you process that? How do you deal with this pressure to perform, but at the same time just genuinely engage in learning and chart your own path, become your own person?
Yeah, think for yourself- kind of, how do you do the work in a way that you feel proud and good of without the maladaptive perfectionism creeping in to say, well, I've got to do it this way or this is what they're looking for.
Yes. Yeah. And to genuinely follow the research, pull what comes to mind, to argue with opinions of people you really value, and to not be afraid to step into that context. Of course, that's part of the learning process, I think, in a PhD program. But yes, definitely sorting out your identity, having a clear sense of what you're there to do and how to accomplish it.
What were some strategies that you used to deal with all that?
I think a big one is community. And having community outside of Vanderbilt even, which I found a lot of... The faculty just encouraged me in my life in that there is a life outside of just being a part of academic study at Vanderbilt.
Another thing, though, more specifically through Vanderbilt, I think also being aware of some of the unhealthy things that were becoming a part of my daily habits and practices and reaching out to the counseling center and setting up times to meet with someone and work through, talk about the pressures I'm feeling, crazy things that sort of making me do and be develop a better self-awareness, but also a better way of- so i talked about the struggle of figuring out who i am- but knowing that your value, your worth, is not in your productivity, or in the way you shine as a phd student, although of course we all want that. But your values have to be somewhere else, in something deeper, and have a rootedness, which for me has also been connected to faith. So I mentioned community, but faith communities, and having a clear sense of who I am, and being able to distinguish that from my professional studentship here at Vanderbilt, so that I can have some freedom, I think, really, to pursue what I'm interested in, to do what I love. And yes, but not become too discouraged as I wrestle through, yeah, failures and learning and being a student.
I think what you
said is so powerful about your worth and value is separate from the work. Because I think when you really, truly understand that, you're allowed to take feedback from others about your work in such a more productive way. Did you see that over time?
Yeah, definitely. And I think it's a constant battle. It's just being aware of like, okay, what is speaking to me right now? Is it a clear intention of what I'm trying to do in my work, my research question? Or is this need to impress- that imposter syndrome- sort of taking over and making me, yeah, make bad decisions in some ways?
Yeah. And I think, it's a constant battle, but having resources, having community, being able to talk to a therapist through what's available, has been really helpful to just tap back into sources of identity, where I'm truly rooting and grounding myself.
Great. Well, you mentioned the Counseling Center as a resource. Can you talk a little bit more about the other Vanderbilt resources that you've discovered and the ones that you found particularly helpful?
I think a few things come to mind. One, child care that's available through Vanderbilt. Although I haven't taken advantage of it directly, child care in Nashville is really crazy. And it is really great to know that there is an affordable option close to campus, that you can be on the waiting list, and get involved in at any point. And so, yeah, my family, we've navigated that. And that has been just a really nice resource to know is there and is available.
I think also the campus being involved in trying to make sure people can get here in creative ways. So for a while I was trying to cycle and there was a, not a call center, but someone who you could reach out to who would help you think about routes and plan, figuring out how to like, you can use the bus, you can put your bike on the bus. Makes things so the focus on helping you figure out your commute- make it affordable, sustainable- I think has been really great.
The counseling center.
I guess the other, I mean the libraries, but it's also the personal librarians, and people who, if you're not finding what you're looking for, you can reach out to them, and they can get it pretty quickly. And I've used that a lot of times. I've reached out and said, I need this book and the library will buy it, and I can look at it the next day. And so that's another resource that's just really nice to have.
That's great. You mentioned child care. Tell us a little bit about what doing the PhD is like as a parent.
I was really scared about it. And this is where I talk about this identity, like, who am I? There's a lot of pressure to say, like, maybe I shouldn't do this because I need to prove myself right now. Having children is just going to slow me down. But coming back to, like, no, that's not how I want to move forward. That's not fair to my family. That also, I don't want to make my entire identity around this.
As I wrestled through that, I talked to faculty who I work with at the GDR, Graduate Department of Religion. They gave me some really great advice. They also had had children during their graduate studies. I think one great piece of advice I got from Dr. Michelson was, I think it is scary, but if you want to have a family, now is the time to figure out if you can do this or not. Waiting till later, things are not going to get easier for you once you become a faculty member, or if you become a faculty member, if that happens for you. So, I think having a sense of: can I manage scholarship and T.A.-ing and everything else with children, is a really great thing to learn right now. That calmed me down a little bit. Also knowing he had done it and talking to Dr. Byrd, shared experiences of how he navigated child care. Also having paternity leave, so when my daughter was born in 2023, I wasn't asked to T.A., I was given that full semester to just be present as a parent and also keep my research going.
So, I think that's been huge. I don't know if it's everywhere, but I can say for the Graduate Department of Religion, my advisor, really like everyone just said, “We're here for you. We're going to support you. We think it's great that your daughter was born. We're excited for you. And we think you can do both, you know, if you're willing to keep at it, put in the work.” That supportive community here has been incredible.
And I understand that your wife just had another child? Congratulations!
Yes, so I don't know if the second time is easier or not, but still knowing that i can just let people know, I can be honest about when I need a little time, or when I have questions. It's gone really well.
I've always heard that going from zero to one is the most difficult. So, if that's any solace for you.
Yes.
So, you mentioned identity quite a few times. Can you talk a little bit about what you've discovered about yourself during this PhD journey?
There's a lot of things. I think one that comes to mind, is just being aware of how anxieties can really get in the way, and cause more problems than help. And, I think, learning that I tend to worry about things. In a way, it's good to plan. It's good to plan out things and have an idea of where you're going, of course. But it's not necessarily helpful to worry about things before they exist yet. And so, being aware that I tend to worry about things that haven't happened- that are way down the line- and just saying, like, that's not helpful. I think the better way is just to approach it, in a sense, day-by-day, but also through your plan, put things together, figure out how you want to accomplish things, set that chart for yourself of where you're headed, and how you're going to navigate different obstacles, but then also just let it go a little bit so I know that like when I did my exams, when I wrote my proposal, as I started my research, a lot of times things went very differently than I expected. And while that, at times, was scary, and you think, oh no, does this mean
I've really gone off the rails, like I'm about to crash and burn here? I found a lot of times it actually led me to a more interesting trajectory.
So even this research question, this George Trosse that I'm following right now, is slightly different than my proposal. Well, quite a bit different than my proposal. But as I followed the research and just sort of let it take me where it was, I found I was actually learning a lot more than I would have, if I would have really stressed about that, or tried to force things to fit the plans I had. And just realizing it's actually okay to like call an audible and follow things a little bit differently.
Again, I say that now. I think at the time it was my advisors just sort of encouraging me like, I know you wrote this, but if a good idea comes up, just follow it. And also being encouraged- that's what research really is. So if you research towards an idea that you developed before you did the research and that you need to get back to, that you're not really researching or letting the evidence that you're discovering inform your conclusion.
Right, so research is sort of scary.
It is. You think you have a thesis and where you're going and then you find that that's not at all where you were headed, but that's much more interesting and creative and realistic to follow that process, and much more informative I think in the end to just allow the research to lead you and take you places that you didn't plan on.
Yeah. You have talked about your faculty a few times. Can you talk a little bit about mentorship and what you've been able to gain from them?
I think mentorship is really important. And I think, so we talked about what is identity as a grad student. And I think some of it is just being able to relax and realize that the faculty are here and they just want you to learn and to dive in and to follow the research as it takes you. And so, I've realized that that faculty mentorship is not about proving yourself, although there's an element of course you're being measured and giving feedback, but it's about a relationship and about mentorship and what it looks like to be in the field of historical studies of religion, and how to think, and that doesn't happen through a rubric or through a format. It happens through a relationship and through mentorship and I have been very fortunate to have two great advisors who have really poured their lives into me and I’ve been over to their homes. It's a friendship I would say, as much as it is an academic relationship and I really appreciate that.
Outside of your co-advisors, what does mentorship look like for you?
Yeah, I think what comes to mind right now- I'm currently involved in what's called an externship through the graduate department of religion. I'm teaching at Belmont and so I have a relationship there with Adam Nieder, who's incredible, and we meet once a month and chat through what does it look like to teach your first college level class? And what do you think through, how do you think through pedagogy? How do you think through relationships with students? Tech selection? The politics of putting a syllabus together? And that's been great and I’ve also just loved the experience of teaching undergraduates, of hearing the questions they're asking, of seeing the ways they respond to the readings I have planned and given to them, and to hear just very unique perspectives. And it's
helped me understand text deeper. And so I like to think that as a mentorship opportunity of just encouraging a group of people who are not necessarily involved in a religious studies major or headed that direction in very different fields and trajectories, but to come back to these things of religion history, of Christian thought, how does it relate to ideas that affect our lives right now? Or how has it shaped the modern world and modernity and the ways we think? And so I've found it really enjoyable to get that live feedback, to be able to share texts I really enjoy, or things I found really interesting, and see other people not on the same trajectory- a very different place in their life- engaging, responding to, and finding them interesting. So i've really enjoyed that.
Great. Caleb, what's something you wish you had known when you started all of this that you think would be helpful for others?
As I think about this question the idea of your value and I think just knowing when you come in as a student, the faculty, the program, everything is here for you. It's not here to fail you or to catch you out. It's here to support you and encourage you to grow and to learn. And you've been selected to be a part of this program. So just have fun, work hard, do what you're here to do. And don't worry about too much the perceptions of others because I think they're all here for you. They're all rooting for you and they want you to do well. And so that encouragement to just know, even as you wrestle through, what is the identity as a PhD student? Who am I? You are someone who gets an opportunity to just do what you want to do, to nerd out for several years. So just go for it and relax a little bit. Embrace the learning that you have the opportunity to do.
And I think the other thing, so it's come up already, but just going back to this idea of like, don't worry too much when things don't go exactly to plan. That may actually be the most valuable thing that could happen.
And if you're willing to... into the unknown, step into the scariness of a text or a trajectory of research that you weren't expecting, can offer a lot of reward and a lot of satisfying narrative and information.
So I'm hearing, you're here for a reason and embrace Providence.
Yeah, I guess that fits very well with my George Trosse and Providence and early modern English.
Yes, that's right. Well, is there anything else that you'd like to share with us today, Caleb?
No, I mean, I think I feel like I've been able to talk quite a bit. I've really enjoyed this and thanks for the opportunity.
Well, me too. Thanks so much for your time and your wisdom. And I'm sure a lot of folks out there have learned a lot from you today. So, thanks, and we'll see you soon.
Thanks for joining us on another episode of Discovery Dialogues. Stay connected with the Vanderbilt Graduate School, as we continue exploring ideas, innovations, and people shaping our academic community. Until next time, keep asking questions, stay curious, and continue discovering what inspires you.
This podcast was recorded in Studio 608 at Vanderbilt University, with the assistance of JT Spangler. This podcast is produced by Anna Thomas, Nick Hyer, and Stacey Satchell in the Graduate School at Vanderbilt University, with audio editing by Ben Hill. The perspectives shared in this episode are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Vanderbilt University.