In this episode, Andre Pino chats with Forrester analysts, Charlie Betz and Jeff Hammond. The topics of discussion range from DevOps in the present, to DevOps in the past and then onto the future. Along the way, the Forrester analysts also reveal some of Forrester’s recent DevOps research. 

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00:00:03you're listening to devops radio the podcast series that dies into what it takes to successfully develop deliver and deploy software in today's ever-changing business environment this show is sponsored by cloudy the Enterprise Jenkins company and continuous delivery leader
00:00:26welcome to today's episode I'm joined by to farster analyst Charlie Betts and Jeff Hammond welcome gentleman nice to be here for area focusing and research well I have recently been named to be the global devops lead for Forester serving infrastructure and operations professional so I work closely with my colleagues serving application developed delivery and development professional I am here to serve the traditional aiono I am bringing down the word previously I was focusing more on it service management of Frameworks and I've also done a little bit of work on cloud with Lauren Nelson number for his Grandma's but looking forward to the new year and moving into this new area
00:01:20great thanks just well if he's the Ops in devops I think you can kind of guess how I do I've been with the force turn up about 12 years and I've been in the F5 started as a developer and then don't tell controls and then have been there for sure as of this year I'm actually not on our application development delivery team anymore I was in one of the reasons for that is as we see more and more companies depending on software to be a critical part of their business and underpin the digital Transformations that there are embarking on the CIO needs to understand just how important it is to be part of that not just from me a cooling or process perspective but also from a cultural perspective from an organizational perspective I am from a measurement perspective and so part of my job
00:02:20or stirrers help make sure that our CIO level readers understand just how important getting this right is that you talk to recognize the importance of software to their businesses I certainly think so one of the things that we've seen them I did an analysis of our enquiries that we've got none Deborah in 2017 good time to do it start of the year and one of the things that we see in those increases what role that client has any organization what road you would expect there's a lot of folks that are from Appleby development there a lot of folks to come in production operations all but almost 1 out of every three of those enquiries either comes from a co-leader or from an e a reader an Enterprise architect and so when you see that it's pretty obvious that devops thinking or interest in devops isn't just coming from the devs in the Ops II
00:03:20coming from leadership it's coming from Mark and I think one of the reasons for that is that one of the places that we see our large client start to like it at all with respect with respect to that is when some of these larger issues arise that require more than just the app Devin the operations folks to get their act in gear I don't give an example I spend some time with a very large tell client of ours and they got to a point where they could not go faster without making some pretty significant structural changes their application architecture are they needed that put in preacher flags and banners and flags they needed to begin to modularize these massive applications they at because it didn't matter at that point how many more people they threw out it how much more how many more how much are they worth the process the architecture was holding them back classic thing you see when you start to scale and move beyond the initial stage
00:04:20so you know they want to do updates in small batches the fact that the application was a huge monolith just to still continue to stand in the way of the handouts which is why you got this big push towards product product oriented across from Shell, we put a label on it I can't remember when you have three years organized around centers of excellence you know the network team based in the Java team the q18 the QA is separate from Dev and the whole idea was that we were going to try to emulate some kind of an assembly line and handle work on in big batches well you can just give me the word on you get into smaller and smaller batches but you still have those transactional that transactional friction between those hand off and after a while after your point that just does not scale
00:05:20we have to start thinking about well maybe it's more effective if we have more higher variety of people on the delivery team do you start to have the developers and the testers annadata specials all on the same group and it hurts then you start to get into the microservices conversation and the full stack teams have recently in the mobile application development delivery and one of the reasons I've come back into the devops faces because in some ways we found the mobile teams had to become really good at that box because of the Velocity demanded I in the mobile specs when I would talk with the mobile client one of the things I would say was the first thing you have to do is you have to organize your jeans to deliver into production a minimum of six to eight times a year and that's not even yell think about teacher updates because you have no control over the apple or or Google updates
00:06:16it's not an option to say what was it called the operating system constant like we used to with Windows 95 Service Pack 3 right so cool located teams with rapid delivery process just became the way that people build mobile apps which then let us to you know cloud-native architectures behind those things with mobile backend-as-a-service so for a while you saw the most common workload for public Cloud infrastructure number to or blood in our data was at the mobile have learned in this new area in this undated World in this mobile world let's bring that back into our mainstream development and apply the principles and I have really come battle-tested there for mainstream application development activities
00:07:16what's happening generally within an organization industry why what 42%. Young will identify the song degree was saying we're moving in this direction and there's still some people kind of in the middle I would say that the ladders and the resistors are are really there their they're diminishing and number although what do we mean by start to ask people by then you have to get into the question what really are you implementing if you say you're doing it that said though the heat map which we put together an updated of the heat map 42084 2018 the hottest area is probably telecommunications and or financial services we know that the big tacos are under a lot of pressure they do not know you can always walk down the street from the gang and go to the other Telecom carriers a lot of competition so they've got it actually keep updating those products
00:08:16has also really started to up their game with increasing their release velocity now they got regulations so I think there is more research is consistent across the financial services is big and then finally manufacturing you know that you guys coming from different directions right Charlie you from more from the outside and Jackie Moore from Stepside what are you saying I'm a developer perspective with respect to Deborah is it empowered empowering developers it's it's interesting because that
00:09:03developers seldom than meat need to be convinced of the value of a tab of the tactics and the processes because they want to change things they want to go faster they want to make new things they are paid to change things and then anything that helps them do that faster is is great I find it they often chase at their management at the larger it organization that you'll bring some from going fast with a lot of rules or with a focus on standardization or on control and one of the side effects of schism in the way that development organizes it was as a result were increasingly seen situations were calipers are getting embedded inside the business inside a digital organization inside a product group and are no longer in i t
00:10:03fine because then they can work directly with the product manager or the business sponsor that is pushing for the change and they're out I think I can go too far and so one of the things that we recommend is that's right for front-end development for user experience but you keep your microservices keyper systems of record inside that centralized organization with a little bit more control and governance around it but in both of those cases those teams are looking for solutions that are going to help them go faster and so you see them adopting Solutions including devil pulling that allows them to do that whether it's something like a platform like Roku which makes it very easy to push her platform like a boundary that makes at work you know Finding their own open source tools that they can then begin the instrument and and and used to automate their processes and hook those up to
00:11:03there are two their deployment platforms a choice whether it's Amazon and they're looking for tools allow them to do that on to that so in preparing for the biggest survey that Forrester does it's called their priorities in Journey and it's close to 20,000 size panel is just what you just an event survey if you're a survey this is not a few hundred people worldwide we saw clear and still really statistically significant evidence business at businesses everywhere are creating saying that they were priority of creating it teams that report into the business
00:11:55I mean you can talk about it and come on road 80 Shadow 80 all you want it's a thing and then clearly there in the numbers and it's increasing hero per year it's one of the new Educators six million dollar combine how to build software not a problem okay we had IC Systems for you we know how to build software that runs the business but now we're trying to build connected products and we want
00:12:55to have that farmer gets in the cab or maybe is in their office with the tablet or computer and the see how their products are operating in the reaction also want to be able to update that stuff multiple times a year unlike the embedded software how do we do that where does it mean to live how does it need to be organized an interview that I had what they like and or operations organization cuz they own the relationship with the franchisees and had to convince them to put the hardware in to allow the unlock capabilities in that world that was king of dabs and operators need to be as close as possible to understand their concern
00:13:55it's a it's a two-way street because the OT folks for years have just said while my systems are air gapped don't bother me but that's not true anymore and the 1.2 said that they had a naughty was networking who actually understands the network show me a question so with all that sort of party changes occurring within organizations and and developers moving into business units with me to Offshore happening in that world
00:14:33so it's really interesting is in our research we have seen a bit of a shift in how companies want to buy those external Services especially when it comes to development and it's away from kind of a wholesale project Outsourcing model towards something which is much more of an augmentation model Body Shop butt augmentation in terms of specialized resources that come in that help to round out the team and then also transfer skills overtime so whether it's a federal Labs method or if it's digital agency that is providing data science talent and experience mobile development or some iot development shops we find that these organizations are using those service providers but also working with folks that can teach them how to change their delivery culture as part of that effort and tools
00:15:33part of that but also just experience and coaching becomes an extremely important please philosophy in countries like India I was actually surprised
00:15:56okay well I'm going to supply side of the industry of done we've been through so many terms and Concepts that I constantly talk to our clients and I spend as much time trying to help them understand the terminology as the intent so where does agile stop and devops start or what's the difference between continuous delivery in dead boxer how do I think about calms versus Alm more you know if I'm scaling agile do I think about say for Nexus or
00:16:39hi ma'am I know you know I only see two ways our clients react to this implementation one of them I think is good one of them I think it's not so good a lot of our clients Facebook that confusion of terms and capabilities and and how they all fit together adopted read dogmatic attitude we're going to choose something and we're going to standardize it and we're going to drive those standards through the more holistic approach the better approach my perspective is to start focusing on individual tactics processes things and the observable results from those tactics and get a little bit less hung up on in my safe shop or am I ascribe shop or next to shop for my focusing on devops but things like a reason feature Flags you get your fines work how do they work do we use red green deployment does that help us get out faster if it does let's continue to use it
00:17:39double down if not maybe we'll move on to the next thing I focus on the results of the activities and the flexibility to adapt those to the needs of the team or what we can to see in the most successful organizations that I would call a Jew landspeeder as opposed to a job I process so that's that's our clients space yeah absolutely I agree with everything you say Jeff is saying I had a couple more observations predated digital transformation to open and made sense for independent software vendors who are releasing software to be scammed on CDs that we're going to go into the end on into boxes at the shelves of CompUSA or best buy me lunch was telling my grandchildren yes we used to go into
00:18:34or and buy software in a box and Andrew made sense back then I mean you know some of the core of the core principles you know transcend you know that extend back to that point in time dance formation and the rise of cloud and the global internet software delivered as a service is very different and it's so easy to just kind of rattle off the cloud acts as a service but it was fundamentally different as compared to going and buying software and sticking it in you know to your PC and loading it we could not ship our product any more than twice a year and I couldn't do it because I couldn't handle that level
00:19:3450 million release of the year the Netflix guys there's a great quote from their there they're their Chief technologist or 33 million different versions Netflix I feel like I have 5 of them that's the difference between where we were then time of the agile Manifesto and where we are now it's it's incredibly granular and we just didn't have that and it's very much an rmd discussion we were talking about this earlier today you know the the idea that we have unknown unknowns and we're going to use fast feedback because we need to test are hypotheses against what's actually going to work and that makes a ton of sense or actually the core and lunch will problem of developing software I'm going to develop it it's going to be great and now I need to put it in an operational status as a service that will deliver somebody a Moment of Truth this is a somewhat different conversation and guess what there are
00:20:34edible things in between X & Y that can be automated and should be automated remember I remember the Battle of days of 50 page one books on human follow it and they need to follow it precisely the same way every time let's see here but you know there are significant other with a big dose of lean thinking you know why you no Vayas seems like she is interested in the goal in the work of Eli goldratt
00:21:20speaking of intersecting or converging influences what's the impact that I was having and development team
00:21:35I talked to folks or Advil Advocates especially if I may say you know some younger a July because these are some of the smartest people in history of the human race that developed computers and you were doing working with computers in the sixties and seventies and eighties why would they have ever develop something as dumb as waterfall and I'll tell you why Eagles systems engineering I came in on the tail end of that era and we weren't just writing code I was installing PeopleSoft Erp systems for Addison Consulting and you had to size those things precisely for the user base you needed understand the performance characteristics of the transactional load and guess what if you ordered the wrong size HP boxes were the wrong size EMC storage array that man
00:22:35it's from vice president somewhere who put their name on a $10 check and you didn't want to get her 8 on that it was not good for your career and so waterfall once cloud services became more fungible flexible virtual that's when I exploded the Advil Concepts were around and prototypical fashion all the way through the whole history but they only really took hold when people started not having to engineering and design physical systems specific to the application when I was well when we went out so it's really hard to think about one of the victims of a scene with
00:23:30the slow change and theme from managing your servers as pets to managing your servers and your service is Tanner's as cabins, and amps yeah that is so liberating job because if you are able to begin to start working in a way where the pressure on having to be perfect is is reduced and you can start to focus on being fast I am you know that me and you don't have to I can speak a little bit of a memory leak then you just tell the thing and you move on or is it becomes a lot easier this is one of the reasons I've never seen something like nodejs and
00:24:30there you were like a small and we get to the point where this work so that that that situated
00:24:50equilibrium shift in thinking and architecture has just become so powerful that it has essentially enabled us to cast off the shackles of the 10 million dollar size weed I like a fleet vehicles versus collectible cars cuz I spent time on the couch Campus of University of Minnesota and large a large animals actually have veterinarians
00:25:28this is never a good metaphors
00:25:37yeah anyways but yeah just like what are your clients coming to you and asking about about that Mart
00:25:54show me take me to swim first go for it well how is this any different than BM mean 20 years ago we were using VMware when it came out in it in our test labs and you know creating images and throwing them down and then we were doing damn eyes we're putting it out there and think you working with like this is just the next turn of the of the of the VM crank the image crank and that's not the case anymore because we are starting to see the beginnings of programming models and merge around containers that let us do more interesting things and so is we start to call those those patterns and those architectural begins to become much more interesting from a developer perspective the idea that if I package to a container I can run
00:26:54yeah I heard somebody describe the containers are Docker as the modern-day posix from a developer compatibility perspective that level of my part but as we start to put these additional programming capabilities around those containers we start to see service meshes of containers when we start to see really robust Telemetry from these containers it's going to be a perfect time to smaller-scale run time and it just feels like it's going to be a much better model than the traditional the image
00:27:54actually got that from at fromage
00:28:00it's a me oh man it's a it's a thing that was the most that was the most outrageous
00:28:06made my day Superman infrastructure side I think we're still very much is another layer on the other hand you can actually reply from I saw that somebody hit reply for me I think virtual desktops done deal is old and you know so there's even some implications there the thing I'm looking at is I'm looking at things like manageability observability and how do we troubleshoot this stuff how do we actually successfully operate it one of the things that scares me the most I'm going to call out the call out to a charity Majors as I I I got this I call this the majors hypothesis I don't know if she would identify it as her hypothesis but to be fair and give credit where it's due
00:29:06Boston anti fragile cheese your choice what's left in terms of the actual problems were having it's all of the ugliest nastiest hardest problems now the finding the needle in a planet-sized haystack cuz he is the metaphor and so what is this going to mean in terms of War how do we manage this to how do we trace a cell in addition to you know kubernetes and in that landscape I'm also looking at the transaction to ServiceMaster Frameworks the envoy is the zip Ken's trying to make sense of that stop Beyond just The Superficial level is there's a major major transitions going on you're absolutely no or any of that sort of
00:30:06exactly thank you very much for a great conversation today it's a pleasure it's always nice
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