PROMOTED

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

English
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PROMOTED

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:03I'm just worried I'm in this is designpro success stories this is my chance to talk with Architects Landscape Architects and interior designers to explore what it takes to be a successful design professional through the stories of Our Guest where do they get their inspiration who's influence them and what choices of had the biggest effect on their career
00:00:28they were going to be speaking with Judy Davis and these heaux clander and Allen R Us they are professional photographers in the Washington DC area their focus is on architecture Architectural Interiors and Landscape architecture so they're really focused on the same group that design Pro success stories is so I thought they'd be a perfect fit for this audience they have a business called photographing spaces which is secondary to their their professional photography and what that business does is it help side designers like us better understand how to photograph are on work there they understand that not everybody will always be hiring a professional photographer for when they need to photograph their work so one of the things they do with photographing spaces as they have workshops and webinars where they're teaching people the
00:01:28hearts of Aesthetics of Photography or the technical side and how did just take better photos of their work so what they're going to discuss with me today is Windsor great time to use a professional photographer when to use people in your photos options for copyright on your photos best times to photograph and a number of other things to do with them getting the best out of your work and helping it show its best when you're having it photographed without further Ado let's talk to Judy Davis and he's Hoke Lander and Allen R Us
00:02:09alright so I've got Judy Davis Allen Russ and a nice hook Lander on the line and as I said in the introduction they're going to go over with us a few things today they're going to talk about the benefits of using a professional photographer to show off and Market our work as a designer so whether you're an architect and interior designer or landscape architect they work with all three professions and then we're going to finish off by talking about a second business that they run that helps designers like us better understand how to do their own photography in and work with Photography in different ways so they're going to talk about their workshops in things they do with their company called photographing spaces so I'm Judy why don't you start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself and then Alan and Annie
00:03:09follow and then we'll start getting into the meat of the discussion
00:03:15great and thanks for having us today this is really exciting glad to be a part of your online presence in a podcast so we are working photographers that you mentioned we specialize in architectural photography and you know photographing the built environment anything that is design related and I have been doing this probably 25 26 years moved to the Washington DC area in 1990 and met my current business partner and he's hopeful and her and just really enjoy being kind of a collaboration in a team in photographing design and that's what I've always been attracted to his form and design and line and perspectives and really enjoyed working with a collaboration of designers as well as photographing architecture and design whether it's Interiors or exteriors anything in the built environment
00:04:15well let's see I I pick up a camera as a senior in high school and taking a basic intro photography class and then immediately was with hooked on photography I've always I guess I started my career photographing fine art Landscaping that that was really my background for many years and eventually got a BFA from the University of Arizona Inn in fine art with a concentration in photography and all that time I kind of focused on the landscape but then after I graduated from college I started working for photographer out in Tucson men, Santa Claus and we did a lot of editorial architectural photography which is probably sort of a hybrid between interior design photography and Architectural photography it's a little left technically fluffy and then what we usually do but I worked out with him for
00:05:1512 years until I get my wife to the east coast and work in the grass design and branding firm I'm at the staff photographer and that was that was actually sort of an interesting job in the sense that it was a lot about layout and graphics and so that I think in some ways informed my waiter photography and that it became more about being conscious of of publication and then type layout in and things like that and incorporating negative space and that in the photographs but then I moved here in 2004 and met Judy enemies in and began working for them as the first assistant and became be Associates tographer here in 2006 and only photographed architecture in landscape architecture fence and
00:06:07wonderful strengthen the photography and I'm always I'm just impressed that people can make a a good living at that I mean it's anything artistic even I'm a landscape architect but anytime we can turn that into a living and I just think that's pretty pretty fortunate for all of a sudden great to hear that you guys have been able to do this for as long as you have so at least tell us a bit about you
00:06:43well I'm probably the veteran of the three of us so I've been working as an architectural photographer since graduating from college and I'm back in the early 80s my Apprentice with an architectural photographer and here and Washington DC is Maine's Harlan Hambright and pine graduating from college I worked also worked in an architectural firm IV DKR based here locally and DC my background is in fine art photography All I Really Ever Wanted to photograph was architecture in terms of the details showing blade and form and structure and it's just what I've responded to visually pretty much my entire life I've been photographing since I was five and a half with little Kodak instamatic and it
00:07:43all I ever really done and then I became vice president of Hambright and Associates and eventually purchased a business in 1990 and I've been working on the phone proprietor and then I'll partner with Judy and then partners with all three of us and photographing spaces ever since so I think you can send three of us of all it's all we've ever done and we all have worked together for quite a long time but it's our passion it's definitely my passion I am I happy places when I'm probably photographing either modern commercial or residential work with a lot of glass I love my specialty is duck shots I love photographing at that time of day when there's a lot of transparency in a building that has a lot of window and I think
00:08:43Dollar General hope it's what I see it's what I do and that's what I'm passionate about
00:08:50what I think's best about what went from a design perspective what I love about where you guys do is you take something that you know a designer has created and put their you know they're so and they're Creative Juice into and what I find I'm looking at some of your photos right now is that you really help it come alive and sing or not and that was the reason I wanted to talk to you guys is because I think there's just massive value and presenting our work at its best and when you get somebody who understands that as well as you guys obviously do it it it can actually make you so much prouder of your work and see things there that maybe even you missed it as the designer that you're able to capture whether it's through great lighting or a perspective into the space or the exterior whatever
00:09:50so I'm kind of transition into that idea now and have you guys kind of educate us as designers as to some of the main reasons when you're working with your clients on maybe just outlined that the primary reasons why we should come to somebody like yourselves and and then also I'm going to do one of these multiple layered questions like I warned you about how how do we communicate to you as the the photographer what's important to us or whatever that did that helps you capture what we care about most in portraying in the photography
00:10:36what's the first I want to say I think you summarize it really well in the beginning is you know you're bringing in a professional photographer to work with who has a design aesthetic just much like you as a designer does as well and when you're hiring a professional he's going to create visually exciting images for your portfolio you want to make sure you have a match you know that you're hiring someone that has a creative I whether they also bring a lighting expertise to the shoot and know a certain time of day but maybe when a designer is looking for someone to work with and you're getting referrals or your checking websites you know look for that approach that you know do the colors pop and do they have a good eye for framing either actually Concepts that we talked to you in our workshops to as well as lunch and learn I'm at the key to hiring the right professional
00:11:31yeah I think that's a great perspective sorry Judy I think the the best
00:11:40Fred design
00:11:41text and start thinking about photography is to start looking at images but they respond to and just kind of
00:11:50but they have to figure out for them a sense of what they like and how they want to have their buildings portrayed and I think you were asking about what the process is for that I think once they find photographers you know their area or in the place where maybe their project might not be where they work if they can look at different online resources to find architectural photographers know wherever they need to be photographing once I've done that they should definitely call the photographer either have them come in and speak with them or look at you know an online portfolio that of images that are very specific to the type of project they have the friends and see if they would like to photograph residential work if they have a residential project they should definitely
00:12:50ask to see residential work and then once they do that and once they feel comfortable with a photographer so much of this also has to do with how they feel comfortable working with the person so it's really important to meet the photographer ahead of time and then once they do that they can go to the project and Scout it ahead of the actual photography that's being done what we find out in a scout from the client is what The Narrative of their project is and I think we always most designers have some kind of narrative that they've come up with or design concept and if it helps
00:13:44I have them talk us through you know how the project began and then what was involved and what their designs theory was and you know and then tell us what they want to communicate about this face so that we can try and tell that story and photographs
00:14:00yeah I think that's a great point because one of the things I'm noticing in some of these photos or most of the photos is it most of them don't have people in the interior spaces so tell me a little bit about that you know the strategy there do you find it your clients who want interior shop for instance they want it devoid of people at my wife's a realtor and there's a real psychology to how you present a home to sell it you know what I mean and they want all personal effects removed it you know I like pictures of the family because they want people to be able to come in and imagine themselves in that home when they are looking to buy it so is there any kind of you know thinking in those lines when you're doing photography
00:14:48call the big debate that we have here because actually I think the pendulum is swinging to a lot of our clients requesting people in the photograph or at least getting photographs that are with and without people we might not have that money on our website but you do do that you know it specially now we do it more often now I think then 5 years ago I think it's that editorial fielded clients you have a seed in the magazines now it's so popular but sometimes the conversation among the three of us is you know what is it a fad when's it going to stop again because it comes and goes actually in kind of what the client asks about them what they prefer I know we are working for client and we do need to create imagery that they will find to be
00:15:48very usable for their style and their personality so I mean I guess the conversation we've had in in the house is that it works well if you're showing a public space or if you're trying to show the utilization of a space so for instance if it's a school it's an elementary school there's just so much more life added to the photographs if their kids running around but in my opinion if you're showing a gorgeous living room and it's just rich with material and in our furniture and wonderful wall coverings or whatever I don't think a person should be in a shot like that so you know the date of Ozark people do it all the time but I think in general you know there is a time and place for it and I guess we are asked
00:16:48bats and but also we will work with our clients if they feel they want to show people in their space design and one of the things this comes up a lot for me and we just had our grandchildren here over the weekend and they're from Canada and we have a swimming pool and I I felt like the energy around the in this is a space that I designed so what was so cool to me it struck me that the way the kids were using the pool and jumping off the wall and the energy that was created by the way they were using it and capturing that energy to me I just thought these are my client State they have families they want spaces for their families to live outdoors in and struck me that I don't have a lot of photographs that portray that energy but if I was speaking to a client that had kids and there's
00:17:48and yeah what we want things for the kids to do then those photographs would probably resonate more deeply with them because now they can Envision oh look at that and there's just an energy that's portray that isn't portrayed without people in there so I do think it's contextual right it depends on who you're speaking to and what the audience is a beautiful thing about all Jesus fat if you can invest little cough both you know in time and instead of pay a premium you can have it both ways with Ralph that will get something that we got asked to do a lot of specially I think Judy with commercial office spaces and you know you'll get being an architectural a pure form and then bring people in but there's obviously there's added production time and and he's got to get either models which is
00:18:48almost never happens or staff members to come in and actually pose for the photographs but it definitely we we get the request regularly
00:19:00it's hard as it used to be like it was with them do you find that the people who are now requesting people in the photos it leans more towards commercial versus residential or the other way around I do I think so it's more commercially it's a bigger request for commercial offices in a public bus Depots are terminals or something but especially in the schools it's we always photograph people in in the school people in the kitchen
00:19:39and out on the porch so you know where you're really trying to show use and they were fun shots so I think it works out you know as we were saying before it's just there's a time and a place for it and you as the client needs to decide what you how you want to communicate Your Design just like you were saying about those children no jumping in the pool is that something you want to show in that type of image in your portfolio that doesn't it's not as successful well then there's this mid-ground right so one of the things I also have seen on houses that some people will put on you know the stage at now put wine and cheese out and glasses and things like that so it didn't Furs this is how it's being used but they don't necessarily go all the way and put the people in the shot and then I've seen
00:20:38combination where yes they're sitting around a dining table and there's food on the table and stuff like that outside or these types of things so seems like there's kind of different ways you can play the whole thing I just and it's funny that even with props I mean we have clients were like no keep it there keep it simple you know maybe there's a couple of green pears or something but then we have clients who make us an entire list of what they need to bring in and they'll go shopping for flowers a day before I even that part of propping can be part of our checklist you know part of our conversation with a client before the shoot and you know that the client is actually doing that in pre-production and so yeah we'll definitely bringing props and actually you know give our little to send so I'm dropping and where things should go enjoy that part of it to you and that's part of the cleanup and setup process so you can do the proper thing and or you can go full scale at a barbecue in or something that you were describing so
00:21:36well so that sounds great I want to make good use of our time today and said my next question is is on to walk us through maybe the process I'm a landscape architect and I'm residentially driven and I come to you I said hey guys you know I kind of want to strengthen my brand and I've been using these photos but I feel like I could really take it up a notch walk me through the process of working with you photographed in landscape architecture I like to meet my clients on site I like to do it either in the morning or the late afternoon just to get a really good sense of what the Sun looks like coming through there a lot of always a lot of variables but it always starts with a site meeting you know what Scout and then
00:22:36I typically you know the first thing I like to do is have them have my client walk me around the project and tell me about it and it kind of establish that narrative and then often I'll give me a give me a little while and then I'll sort of go out and explore and and Scout the project and you're sometimes I start from clothes into let's say the house cuz there's always the focal point with with landscape architecture in is It's usually the house but the difference with architectural Photography in landscape photography is that I'm always trying to put the house in contact with the landscape as opposed to I supposed to houses in detail tonight I tend to walk around the house a couple times and just explore and kind of go on a little hike and
00:23:31yeah and I have my camera of course I'm taking test photograph I'm just trying to figure out where the lights coming from or where it's going to come from and what the best layering of of planting materials or or stone work is or Design Elements and how they relate to the house and I just heard of a big circle around the house and sometimes get as far away as I can just to find that great contacts. I think and then and then come back and you know part ways with bad landscape architect and then I go home and call through the several hundred cast photographs and figure out what the best angles are in and what the best times of day are and usually send that as a contact sheet or web calorie to to the client and let them kind of go through and look at them in and help me narrow down which are the going to be the best job
00:24:31so that becomes a dialogue about what what are the important big shots and what are the detail shots and see how this whole conversation about what they're looking for and what you think is possible within a fight and then join and in that sense I would say that the two processes or similar
00:24:55I mean I think so I can text her the only other thing we would add to that is as work scouting the building or if you know the residents should we walk around with the client and suggest types of staging and prop that could be brought in because we do have our clients take responsibility for what is included you know terms of objects in flowers or bowls you know binders if it's a commercial space we do ask that they dictate and that they bring in what they want to have in the photograph their style their design only help with placement but we asked if they bring that in well then the other thing too I just realized is when people designers come to you are they usually trying to build a website or redo a website or do
00:25:55what because you're mentioning kind of one project at a time and I would be wanting to capture my best series of projects you know and maybe you know you if your scouting aside I might has six to eight sites that I want you to include in the whole package so what's it worth where do they typically coming to you asking for in terms of scope question about usage definitely marketing materials and RFP that is the main focus of our client request but the other big thing or the award competitions you know you guys want to receive accolades within the design community so Awards actually push our business a lot they make the phone ring so we have you know Marketing in in in what we're trying to accomplish that also getting those materials together for your Awards awards submissions
00:26:55exhibition Gallery prints that you might hang in your office rft's as I mentioned project project sheets PowerPoint in portfolio that we do include that scope of use when we are scouting a project with you and in accomplishing that for your goal
00:27:16but I think wondering if you wanted everybody wants to think about cuz it was interesting that you said your website because everyone is really focused on websites everybody has one and certainly a bad Drive some of the photography but you want to make sure when you're hiring a photographer that you're not just shooting for your website cuz you're already paying a fair amount of money to a photographer to come in and and work with you so you want to make sure you're getting hi-res digital file so that if one day you do is Judy said you want to put something into an awards commission or even a magazine or up on your wall you need to have files that are big enough for that because everything looks good on a website but it. Same image if you ask if the tographer to just come in and photograph for your website that kind of damage is not necessarily going to look good
00:28:16Prince or on the wall
00:28:19you know one of your questions have been if you have a bunch of projects like six processing and you really you don't have a website or you're a young business or you're just trying to build that that's marketing portfolio I think in a case like that if you have a limited budget I think I was as most small businesses do one of the things that you can do with maybe request that a photographer shoot two projects in one day so you would have left at two houses and if you have to ask out you can say let's shoot this one on what on you know in the morning and we'll go move over to this one in the afternoon and that's one way to get a few shots of each project if your only goal is to build your marketing materials but I think you know what as Judy was the saying a lot of a lot of our clients are interested in entering their projects into Awards competitions and
00:29:18are usually image quantity minimums for for that kind of thing so it just I think it depends on on your beauty or need or your purpose for the images are definitely occasions where you'll have a client with a limited budget and and they just need a number of nice photographs and and splitting a day off on multiple projects one way to do that brings back to me I mean I've done a lot of Photography but then it I keep thinking the light the light the light and there certain times where it's convenient for me to go out there but it's the worst light possible for what I want to shoot so can you a nice earlier I think you mentioned morning or dusker but I love dusk but I also like overcast days for exterior shots because I don't get crazy Shadows that make it really hard to show what I'm trying to
00:30:18so so are there certain times where it's best to be doing this this photography
00:30:29why we are
00:30:30that we can scout ahead of time because I think each project has its own personality every project is fighter differently and so when we Scout we let the design parameters the fight specifications and materials of the building all of that determines when you will it'll be photographed so it's a very specific process that goes into figuring out how to photograph a project
00:31:03yeah and I'm saying a lot of shots on Allen site that are evening or night time and I've certainly found with the photographs that I show my clients you get way more oohs and aahs out of the night shots I mean it's always been that way and I'll look at a picture of an outside fireplace during the day and whatever and then you show it to him a fire in it and and the Warm Glow of all that and I know I love that I want that you know so it's amazing the emotion you can create if you get the lighting or the whole vibe right and it to me it's so it's so light driven
00:31:44and it's again you know there is some magazines he won't accept us shots in it so you never know you have to look at the magazines you don't really see many. Shots and magazines and it's because they're too dark and they aren't like Mary and you know so you kind of have to that's where we got to go all the way back to when we were starting in the beginning you have when you have a project that needs to be photographed you need to decide how you're going to Market it you know what what do your audience's who you're going to approach in terms of helping you marketed are you having is there a certain magazine you want to Target now for residential is it you know for trade magazines or is it for dwell magazine for the consumer and all of those photographs are kind of very different and it's a different approach and
00:32:44it's important to make sure your what your goals are before you hire photographer and before you pronounce kauten kind kind of get all that figured out is that Blues I like those are gorgeous blues that you get in a dust shot are almost impossible to reproduce in CMYK printing so there's you know if there's okay it's a big hurdle and that's one of the one of the technical reasons that magazine
00:33:17but they are they are incredibly luscious ins and they they look great on the website because it's the drama you're trying to see how well you know you're always selling I mean that the only reason you're even taking a picture in my opinion it's at the end of the day you want to grab somebody's attention so whether it's to win an award or whether it's to get your next client you're trying to show your work at its best and you want people to feel something when they look at it and if you feel more when you've got good lighting. Well there you go one of the things I want to make sure I see that the X kind of clicking along here so what I'd like to do now is kind of move it to your photographing spaces business and if you guys could tell the audience so what that is and and what it is you do within that company you're all three part of that business
00:34:17that would be great
00:34:19big photographing spaces came about
00:34:25meaning of digit
00:34:28terms and different cameras and different file formats know there was so much change from the transmission from film to digital that we are going through growing pains and our clients were too because all of a sudden they had to deal with different now instead of getting transparencies they were getting less than jpegs and you're working with photographers trying to make sure that they had the right final product and so many of our clients are asking us questions and calling us and we were starting to educate our clients that we thought you know this could be a very helpful resources O'Connor Davis photography if we create three workshops and seminars kind of an educational resource and
00:35:28the website presents as well where people could come and find out specifically about architectural photography know just how it works and so that's what we started doing we were giving lunch and learn lectures at our local DC AIA chapter and people were coming in and just sitting for an hour and we would talk about technical specific questions for another half an hour potential design designer who are trying to understand better how to be a good client to somebody like yourself
00:36:14I think it was a if it's always a big range of people there are people there who love photography and are a photographer's and photograph some of their own work but then there are there a lot of people there who were just at least at the at the outside of trying to become more informed so and it's always our our our audiences are always a mix of people who have very little knowledge of digital photography and file formats and all of the technical stuff all the way up to your pretty Advanced amateurs who who nowhere Raphael is and who but there's there's a lot of information that is changed in the last 5 years and you mystify some of that
00:37:04and I guess I'll let you know what we said and many of our talks with people are either you're part of our goal is helping them learn how to work smarter with an architectural photographer when they when they do want to work with a professional because there are so many steps but then if they don't have the budget for that then we would prefer a learn how to create good photographs for themselves and their so much goes into it that it's just really want to help people get the best photography for themselves whether they're doing it themselves are working with a professional if I came to you and I said okay I'm early in the game and I I'd like to take one of your workshops tell me what I would expect to find in at learn in the workshop and and how that works
00:38:00well one thing we offer is we actually have a tip of the month on our website so it's full of it's just chock-full of great information on technical stuff like last week's information on tip of the month was the fundamentals of Photography but actually like your camera controls in the basics of learning if you're going to photograph your own project what are those little camera controls mean and what are all the icons on the top and what's the difference between the f-stop and shutter speed so we'll talk anywhere from the basics on up to we've been creating seminars on the Aesthetics of Photography and that brings us to the beginning to worry about you know hiring someone with a good eye and being creative or even approaching your project with a creative I and we talked to framing elements and compositional elements and time of day and how you can make something creative at dawn or showing something in the frog or showing something with different color props or bringing color and design into into
00:39:00your final photograph and representing your final project so again just what we've been talking about here in some what we're bringing into our workshops and we have a full day workshops as well as the 90-minute lunch-and-learns and seminars so it runs the gamut on your website for the Aesthetics of architectural photography but then next to that you got Ark Ark or texts or are Yark X 2013 architectural photography live so is that a in-person type of Workshop that you did
00:39:42now to be either give workshops here where people would come to a full day workshop in rstudio and then we work within the district another Washington DC area but we also do travel quite a bit and go and speak at conventions we just were in Chicago in June at the national AIA convention and there we gave up but that 90 minutes presentation that you're talking about but when we give workshops there usually smaller venue somewhere between 8 and 15 people and then we what will do is have kind of a morning session you know talking about technical terms or is StarTex or just a general overview and then we'll go out on a walking tour to a specific building or interior so that everybody can
00:40:42work with their own cameras but also watch us in action so we will show them what exactly what we do and how we would photograph and interior space or an exterior building that sort of thing but you know that's her that's Judy was saying there's so much that can be taught it really runs the gamut and it says depends on you know what request we got from people or what we decide to put up there you know the kind of what we feel like teaching at the time I guess
00:41:19not that often more live events that we would love to do more week
00:41:31the one request we had for the webinar was the Aesthetics of architectural photography and we did that in conjunction with the Virginia Society AIA and would love to create those online and webinars because if we can actually have a national audience with that those are a little more difficult for us is Cheech over there so much interactivity with with regards to using your camera on a tripod and finding a camera position and where the new finding the photograph and that's a lot of stuff that's hard to communicate in a webinar and so I think that's why we amarily gone 5 presentations or workshops well I would just say that I do a lot of the whole podcasting thing I'm doing the big push now in that space is towards webinars and you get an international audience if you want it so it's really I would encourage you to kind of look at what parts of what you guys
00:42:31teach could format out for that kind of a deal because they're certainly a lot in photography like you were saying the simple thing of understanding your camera controls that's you know when I bought my Canon my first digital camera that was an SLR type of thing I was just blown away by the number of questions I had not I've done a lot of Photography but because it's just a different format I was having a hard time understanding at all it's very clunky and if somebody had been able to walk me through that I would have valued that very highly so you know I would just say feedback wise if there's ways to do that do that because it certainly allows you to help a lot more people
00:43:16and it's great information you're giving people because I do think the nature of Photography is there's so many different things that obviously you guys understand and and and you know for those of us who need to photograph some of her own work to some degree getting the basics under us at what to be thinking about has a huge value I mean most of us are on house these days and you know if you just want to keep adding things to your portfolio as they come up you're not necessarily going to want to engage a professional photographer so this type of education or giving I think is really great
00:43:59it's just if I can't get to Washington DC where do I get the education you know what I mean
00:44:06that's why
00:44:09create more webinars and to partner with people who help people like you who can send it out and create the network an international and National audience and it was something that we're developing I think you know sometimes but very cyclical and so we have just started getting involved in photography and it's just absolutely insane around here so most of what we do for photographing spaces in the winter when we have a little more down time but we do have the tip of the month that we get out you know every month we try to do that as consistently as possible but it's let me know we'd really like to do more and more with that there's a lot of interest and that really makes us happy we love seeing so much interest in
00:45:09biography you know what I'm working with us and we were happy to see that happening
00:45:17so one of the things I wanted to cover before we get wrapped up here was I think anybody can look at your website and the whole clan. Davis website and also I'm Alan's work is gets linked in there and by the way I'm going to put that on the show notes on the website for design Pro success story so everybody can link to your website as well as photographing spaces but it's such a beautiful Rich Work in it to me it really speaks for itself the value in hiring somebody like yourselves once I hire you and you do this beautiful work for me do I own the photographs or what is how does copyright work when you work with your clients
00:46:03it kind of depends because I think we were talking earlier and every situation is different but I think one thing you can be rest assured as if someone would come to us and asked us to photograph a project they are our primary client
00:46:24and we would work out term so that they could use the images in any way they need for their marketing purposes that said they are not buying the copyright from us and what they are doing is sharing the copyright with us and you know what the agreement that they can use them for anything they need but where we draw the line and where many photographers draw the line is that they are not a primary client is not able to stay or not allowed to have phones I mean to sell the images resell them resell them to other third parties so they are not purchasing the third-party used because you have for a lot of these projects there are contractors you know of any kind of manufacturer all of those people are involved in the project as well and what we tell our clients is that if we can hold that third
00:47:24used it's actually less expensive for them to have us photograph their projects and keep in mind that's the only part of the dialogue you want to have with your photographer when you're hiring them can mold can you actually share the photography with multiple parties because it would actually benefit everybody's budget and bottom line is if you go in and share it with a vendor or a contractor and it becomes more affordable for you as well but those are different terms you know asking a photographer if they own the copyright and usage like our our rates are kind of based on our day late and the usage at the client is going to have the photography represent them as well as expenses so it's a day rate and usage plus expenses not how we break it out for likes in the photographs and then they have someone in House 2
00:48:24kind of shop that around and tries to sell them and that needs to be made very very clear to the photographer if that's a business model that you want to have because you know technically the photographer who ever laughs and her friends when they're releasing that shutter those images are protected under their copyright so it has to be very clear between the client and the photographer how that how does rights are transferring and if someone does want all rights and they want complete control over those images then they're going to have to pay for almost probably double what they would normally pay any time in Washington DC we actually have the government sometimes as our client and they actually do out there pretty much buy outright the copyright because they'll use that for anything and everything in it actually represents you know copier
00:49:24under federal law in a way that means you're asking them to hand over all rights
00:49:41okay and yeah I guess I don't understand from a residential perspective how that would even come into play in terms of why would I would want to control the bill of sale to a third party hat who would I be selling to so is that more more common for commercial level type Project's contractor or maybe that's a you're using Pella windows so they love to have fun and rice any kind of window manufacturer love having photograph of their projects so they could come in and what you do is mentioning a little bit before is if you can figure out a way ahead of time before the photo shoot even occurred to bring in outside parties and then the estimate from the photographer covers other other
00:50:41put in a professional to have been involved in the project it's less expensive for everybody so as long as all of this is to find ahead of time and there's an agreement with the photographer in the photographer knows what's going on then you know it's always it can always be worked out and a photographer if they know what kind of budget is available then sometimes I can tell you about the sets of parameters either in terms of number of views or how does images are going to be used if it's web-only or you know for large-scale National advertising. Sometimes it's regional advertising and I think Jeff you were just saying how does that apply to you you know would you want to go out and resell these images most likely you're not going to want to and if the photographer has the right to resell with your approval of course then if it's harder for does the leg work and he can go fine
00:51:41asphalt company or Construction Company our furniture company and he can actually resell those images and that's how they the photographer would keep their fees down with the ability to resell to turn party I got at least an hour what we do here internally with our clients is that we would never sell a photograph without their permission from the primary client so you know because if you're trying to control everything and you don't want anyone else to use it it's just going to be more expensive for you and if you're willing to share them with other people then it's just it's yeah it's a cough thing
00:52:31so let's say you you take the photos for me and I said yeah I'm going to use them on my website and we do a shared copyright it sounds like so now you're able to use those on your website and in your marketing material as well as I presume
00:52:49yeah cuz I mean I got a website that we've created for a client and the exclusive rights and they buy that and it's work-for-hire are you not even allowed to put those on your website if they told us that we couldn't I got you again it's all defined ahead of time it's really good to be very clear with your photographer you know and the other way around the tiger from you to be clear of his or her understanding of what's happening it just as long as it's to find ahead of time there's usually no problem so then what's the last question I have here which is just general cost so I know you mentioned to me that it's kind of hard to understand or to tell people what things cost but I'm going to
00:53:49have a little scenario and you just tell me it's if this is something you could give me a general ballpark on so again I'll just use myself as an example I'm a small firm and let's say there's this project I've done and I do want to put it in a competition so I'm really just asking you to come in and photograph one one site and and so it sounds like you would want to do a meeting with me and do scouting and those types of things so or what if if that's what I'm asking of you and then I want I'm going to do a shared copyright with you and you know it's just not that big of a deal cuz for me I'm going to put them on house and I'm also going to sit in my website and then I'm going to submit them for a competition can you give me a general maybe do it two ways just tell me how much time General are you think that type of project ends up taking you and then may be equated to some kind of cost range
00:54:55I'm just I'm going to assume that that after we've met doubted that it's a full day photoshoot
00:55:06and let's say you end up with 10 images 10 or 15 images at the end of the day which is which is pretty good and 215 good images as opposed to 2530 know that you're probably looking at another pending I think on on the scope of range of know like three 2002 $4,500 depending on how many photographs you get sometimes depending on the time of 3000 to 4500 you know on the high-end yeah that's in this area
00:56:05and that that would include all of that doubting and and the pre-production work and then just all of this for the time being and talk through the project delivery
00:56:23Alan just pulled up a really good article that was written in 2011 but I think it's still the prices are still fairly accurate it's been rebuffed magazine and it's actually on its there's a link on photographing spaces but it's called I had a camera camera and it's everybody is listening to those podcast and you just read it it says if I had a camera how to hire an architectural photographer business how soon and it's ripped by Lauren Hunter and again it's remodeling magazine it please google it or go to our website and you can find it there under our blog and one of the categories set a reminder blog cuz I wanted to grab that and then I'll link this for everybody on our website in the show notes so can I search
00:57:23I'm in the blog how do I find that
00:57:30that at the bottom I know right
00:57:34blank if I had a camera remodeling magazine do you see that
00:57:43I think you can search for it as well you can Google it definitely I'll do this when I'm not wasting people's time if I had a camera so I'll I'll link that I appreciate that so tell me again what I'm going to find in there
00:57:57what you're fine it's an article that left on a kind of a regional basis kind of the scale of what it cost to hire an architectural photographer in the scale runs from about 1,500 to 5000 per day and it goes through and tells you know pretty much what we been talking about today doubting what to expect copyright it's a really wonderful overview and then it gives you prices on a ballpark estimate for half-day and full-day shoes that's perfect I really appreciate that because again you know you can only speak to how you do things and I understand that there's a lot of different variables here but that sounds like they are trying to address the same general question I just had so appreciate that
00:58:53when we read that article read if we thought it was really dyeable and good enough to put on are unwrapping spaces website and again you know that's what we're trying to do with photographing space kind of have this be at Central go to place where architect interior designers Landscape Architects if they have questions about specifically no specifics about the architectural photography world and how it works and how they can work with a photographer and there's a lot in terms of resource information on that site I'm kind of clicking through some of that and it's really true I mean I I think that's really great at this is podcast is really the same idea is trying to expose people to some of the different things that will support them is as design professionals but also
00:59:53caring what other people have done to be successful in that as well and so I love this stuff out a graphing spaces in the idea behind it because so many times you know you just have a simple question and if you can get it from somebody who does this for a living and get that inside that's has huge value self that's great you guys are provided that
01:00:16well I'm going to wrap things up now I really appreciate your your professional insight and helping us better understand what we should be thinking about and the questions to be asking when we're looking at working with a professional photographer and why we should even want to do that it's all anybody has to do is look through your portfolio on your website and it's pretty quick to understand the value there so thanks so much for all three of your time today
01:00:47thank you for having us very welcome so audience thank you for tuning in and again I will post all of the ways to connect with Alan and Denise and Judy I'm on the show notes under episode 15 of and it'll say photographing spaces and oaklander Davis photography so thank you for tuning in and we will talk to you next time on design Pro success stories
01:01:25thanks so much for listening today as always you can find the show notes for this episode on our website design Pro success stories. Com at the bottom of that episodes page the show notes will have any resources or links that were discussed in today's episode if you have any comments or feedback please let us know as well there's a comment section at the bottom of each podcast page your feedback is very critical for us improving the content in ways that we can better serve this community if you like this episode please like us on Facebook and review ass on iTunes this will help our rankings which will get the message out even better and expose us to the design Pro Community you can subscribe to the podcast through our website on iTunes or on Stitcher radio
01:02:18thanks again for listening I know you have a lot of Demands on your time and spending it with me is much appreciated take care

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