Full Transcript for Your Difference Is the Superpower

and then created the superpowers to fulfill that mission and allowed them to shape the world in ways nobody else was. 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:49.199 And the more I did it, the more of their stories I understood, I was able to analyze and really identify what it was that activated those superpowers and unleash them so that I could then start hopefully helping people do that too. 00:04:49.439 --> 00:05:00.639 And so the book is about turning that into a process so that you can take the steering wheel of your destiny, of your mission, build those superpowers and go change the world and have a great time doing it. 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:15.279 So I feel like you're in a very unique position and have unique experience to have developed this framework, this point of view around superpowers and how people can dig into those and translate them and focus them towards missions. 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:28.720 So I'd love to hear a little bit more about like what have you learned in doing all those interviews, in writing this book, in working in the corporate world and now um in an impact-driven way. 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:30.800 What are some of the big kind of themes that you see? 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:35.519 Like what gets people stuck and prevents them from taking their superpowers and activating them? 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:36.959 Great questions. 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:42.480 So the first thing I learned is that the why leads to the what and the how. 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.959 And so I always want to know people's origin stories. 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:48.639 And when I interview, that's what I do. 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.839 I ask them to start with their origin story the way I just told you mine. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:06:06.079 And once they give me the why, like you can find out in a person's first 18 to 20 years of life the significant single moment that defined their mission and activated their superpowers. 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:08.639 People don't think that that moment exists. 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:14.480 When I ask them, tell me about a really profound moment that shaped you, they always end up finding it pretty quickly. 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:14.959 Wow. 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:25.040 So once they talk about it, and then I ask them a few questions, and then they tell me what they proceeded to go do as a result of it, the why turns into the what and the how. 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:32.240 I would actually contend it doesn't matter what job you give them, they will do that same mission expressed through every one of those jobs. 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:33.519 Interesting. 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.160 And so that's like the first big thing I learned. 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:52.800 Um, second thing I learned was people build their superpowers off of a combination of what they know they're good at, their friends tell them they're good at, and then they find out they're good at through work and creating. 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.319 And so that process is really important to both frame and decode. 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:59.519 And then the third thing is we are all born broken. 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.480 So every one of us thinks we used to be the universe and now we're just us. 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:08.079 And we're all trying to reclaim the universe. 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:11.040 And so there's two ways to do that be unique and be the best. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:13.680 This is the way we think. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:19.199 Be unique and be the best, or conform and align to what everyone else is doing. 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:21.600 So individual, collective. 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:24.399 The real answer is both. 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:31.600 We have to express and create and connect to others from who we are and what is unique about us, which everyone shares. 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:33.120 It's the one thing we all share. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:44.240 And then we do have to be collective because it gives us meaning and aligned to that collective, but you define the collectives you're in. 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.639 You define how you want to be in those collectives. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:50.480 And we grow up thinking the way to be in the collective is to conform and be dislike them. 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:51.759 That's not the answer. 00:07:52.079 --> 00:08:01.519 The answer that actually works the best for the human, because we're both individual and collective, is to be a part of a community because we're different and in our difference. 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:08.399 Let our difference be the thing that makes us part of a community, celebrate that difference, and then celebrate the connection points too. 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:09.920 And so, but we discover that. 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:11.600 That takes a life and experience. 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:14.319 Another big thing I learned we're experiential learners. 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:21.199 Even though our brain is an idealistic machine and it wants to know all the answers immediately, we don't know anything until we experience it. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:23.839 Usually five, six, or seven times. 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.240 Then we start to figure it out, right? 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:36.960 So one of my most powerful things that I knew early, and I I credit my parents, I knew that the word should did not make sense. 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:45.279 So my joke is should never be used, even though I'm using it to set the rule, right? 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:47.679 That's the one time should works. 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:49.039 So why is that? 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:50.080 What's the problem with should? 00:08:50.320 --> 00:09:02.720 The problem is it's the conflict between what I just described, which is we think we are an idealistic thought machine, a brain of ideas, but we are actually an experiential learning being. 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:08.240 So the mind wants to know everything on day one and then know it forever.

00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:16.799 Experience means we're not going to know it till we experience it many times from many different points of view, which is why in life I think we all go through cycles and repeat them a lot. 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:19.360 And then at some point we make them or we break them. 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:23.679 I call it the difference between cycling, recycling, and free cycling. 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:26.080 But that's another way, so we'll talk about that later. 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:34.559 So what I noted early on, and it gets to your question earlier about what holds people back, should hold people back, right? 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:40.960 So people think if I'm not perfect, should I really express my unique nature? 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:43.600 Or is it safer to conform? 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:48.720 And and our human animal brain wants to avoid risk, it wants safety. 00:09:49.039 --> 00:09:51.200 And conformity is feels safer. 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:52.320 It's actually not. 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:59.919 It turns out differentiation is what's better for humans, and even for animals, those who differentiate move to the top of the pack, right? 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.120 And it's necessary until they evolve too. 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.879 But it's scary and we're very fear controlled. 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:11.120 And eventually we will turn that fear into like inspiration to create. 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.919 And then, you know, being scary will be an exciting part of it. 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:19.519 But I remember early on, I just, and throughout my career and my life, should I would hear should. 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:24.320 You know, the first time I heard should was I was in high school in gym class and I was wearing two different socks. 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:26.399 And I was wearing shorts and jersey. 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:28.720 And all my friends were like, you have to wear the same socks. 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:29.679 I'm like, why? 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:33.039 And they said, You you're you're you should wear the same socks. 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:33.519 You're supposed to. 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:34.559 It's like everyone's supposed to do. 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:36.639 I'm like, doesn't make any sense to me. 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:37.679 It's gym class. 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:40.240 The socks don't matter, and normally I'm wearing pants, you can't see them. 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:40.559 Right. 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:44.799 I literally didn't understand why that was some sort of weird imperative. 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:50.159 But what I knew is that expressing that I was different was exciting and felt great. 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.919 And I not only liked it in me, I liked it in everyone else around me. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:11:02.000 And so that was the beginning of me recognizing this weird social should that didn't make sense that we imposed on ourselves. 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:13.120 And then

one day I was talking to somebody, now I'll go forward into a sort of career, and they were telling me about they they had pulled off an event and it was a huge success. 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.240 So then they did a second event and it wasn't a huge success. 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:20.159 And they said it should have been as good as the first one. 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:23.039 And and they said, I know I could do better. 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:24.399 And I had this revelation. 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:27.840 I said, I want to try and divide these into two different things. 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:34.559 I said, knowing you could do better, that there's more in you, you have more superpowers and more to create, more to learn. 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:35.279 That's great. 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:40.399 The reason that's great is you're setting this higher bar knowing you have it within you. 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:42.960 You have faith that there's more to you you can create. 00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:46.960 So I can do more is a really good motivator. 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:53.679 But I said the opposite, I'm not good enough is a terrible demotivator. 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:57.600 Because that form of guilt, they're both kind of like intellectual guilt. 00:11:57.919 --> 00:11:59.919 The secondary one holds you back. 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:02.639 The first one moves you forward. 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.639 Because it's not I'm not good enough, it's the opposite. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:05.440 I am good enough. 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:06.879 I just haven't harnessed that yet. 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:08.000 Right, right. 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:12.879 So that became a principle, a guiding principle for me for myself and to other people. 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:28.000 I would say to people, in fact, who worked for me, I would say, when you experience guilt because you made a mistake, only use the first nanosecond of guilt that says to you you could do more to motivate you to go learn the lesson, fix it, and do more, right? 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:35.519 But then release the rest because it's just going to hold you in place and it's kind of a fear strategy and it's just not helpful. 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.600 So stick with the beginning and then don't feel bad because I didn't want people to feel bad. 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:40.000 Number one. 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.519 And number two, I'm like, that's a waste of time and it's a passive strategy. 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:51.360 The other thing I did is I started to learn that, and this came from, I think, rabbinical school, where we studied all the time and argued all the time. 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:58.000 I learned that you had to reframe mistakes into experiential learning and experiments. 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:07.840 If we were all scientists working in a lab, every single mistake, we would look and say, oh, we're now that mistake closer to the answer because we're experimenting, right? 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.399 So that reframing became very powerful. 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:19.279 And that became a very powerful attribute in people who became successful reframing, adapting, and knowing they were meant to change, right? 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:20.399 Liking change. 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:27.679 So the whole time you were sharing all those perspectives, I was thinking about how you were you were talking about through the lens of individuals. 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:38.559 And the whole time I was also thinking this is so directly applicable at the organizational level for orgs who are trying to move their missions forward, create an impact, grow their fundraising. 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.879 You know, you talk about differentiation, you talk about experimentation and adapting. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:14:05.440 And I think these are a lot of the same modalities, but even this entire framing around finding a superpower and understanding this tension between the psychological safety of conformity and how that's actually a trap and that standing apart and doing things differently and to a degree, kind of questioning some of these norms and standards is actually what allows you to thrive long term. 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:13.440 So I'd be curious to hear like, have you thought about this at that level, in or even though your work is more primarily with individuals? 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:14.559 Yes. 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.240 So when I started, I remember I thought of myself, and I would even frame this to people. 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:23.279 I'd say, I'm really a champion of the individual. 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:34.399 And so when I worked in recruiting and at a small boutique agency in uh Seattle, Washington, I remember people, you know, I was consulting organizations, large corporations, Microsoft, Amazon, et cetera. 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.919 And people would say, Well, are you ever going to join one of those organizations on the inside? 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.080 And I would say, Oh no, I'm too much of an individual. 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:42.879 I'm too weird, I'm too much of a champion for individuals. 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:44.720 And so I could never do that. 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.720 And then eventually I did. 00:14:46.960 --> 00:15:03.039 And I loved it, but I did bring the spirit of individuality and a focus on human amplification, of which business was a part of it or nonprofit mission was a part of it, as the way I was going to approach it. 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:04.720 So I approached it very differently. 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:07.039 For me, that made sense. 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:14.720 And I remember one day I was talking to someone was saying to me, like, Oh, all of our employees are having this reaction to growth of the organization. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.080 The organization had grown. 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.000 So literally suddenly there was a line of people out the door saying, We want raises. 00:15:21.120

--> 00:15:23.279 And the CEO said to me, What is going on? 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.600 And the head of marketing asked me the same question. 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.080 And this was the moment I created this concept. 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.279 I said, You know what? 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:31.919 Think of an organization as just one big person. 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:32.879 Really simple model. 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:34.159 Just think of it as one big human. 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:35.759 It's like one big collective human. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:41.360 Goes through the same thing, has ego, self-awareness, eyes get open. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:43.679 So all these people are working on the mission. 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:45.679 Suddenly the org is making a lot of money. 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.159 So they're like, oh, I did this, which is good. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:49.600 We want them to feel that pride. 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.320 But with that pride comes compensate me. 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:52.639 Right. 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:55.120 Because the org's now making hundreds of millions. 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:57.200 I should be making millions, right? 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:08.879 And so that opened a door for me that would continue throughout my career, which is whenever I wanted to think about what's going on in the culture, because I'm a student and really focusing on the culture and understanding it. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.159 If I think of it as a person, the model fits. 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.039 It has an ego and it contracts and then it's successful and then it has more confidence. 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:20.480 Then it gets insecure about can it maintain that level of success. 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:26.320 A few weeks ago, I went to do a keynote for an off-site of a company I used to work for. 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.679 And I'm now going back to them and I've seen that they've doubled in size. 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.120 So they've grown, they've had big success. 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.039 They kind of broke through some big barriers. 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:41.440 And so I showed up to tell them, like, I'm so proud of you, and look at this change you created and look at the superpowers you used to do it. 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:47.840 And now you can take all that information and use it to prepare for the next summit up the mountain you're gonna have to go to. 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.559 And this wall you're gonna have to break through. 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.480 And I realized, and then I could see they were all nervous. 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:56.879 And so their leader said to me, Why are they nervous? 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:57.759 We've just had success. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:59.919 I said, No, that's when it's scariest. 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:03.840 Because they'd rather sit on that success instead of have to prove themselves again. 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:04.480 Number one. 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.079 Number two, they don't want to blow it. 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:11.680 When when you when you were at the bottom, there was nothing to blow, there was nothing to break, right? 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.960 Everything was up, but now they're up and they don't want to be the one who loses it or causes the organization to fall back down the mountain. 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:28.799 So you have to help them be aware that that's what's going on, and then do what I was doing with them, which was pointing to what they had just done. 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:30.559 Because this is the other thing that happens. 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:32.640 We're humans, we're born broken, and we're neurotics. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.720 We spend all of our time on the bad list, the the I didn't get done list instead of what we did get done and what's good. 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:39.279 Right. 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.640 Like famous thing. 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:44.079 We all go to sleep at night worrying about what might happen tomorrow, bad. 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:49.200 We don't go to sleep pro-worrying about what great things are going to happen tomorrow. 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:50.240 But we should. 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:52.000 We should actually balance it, right? 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:58.960 So when you do recognition in an organization, like I was doing with them and say, look at the last two years, look at what you managed to overcome. 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.200 The reason that's powerful, it's nice. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:02.240 It's a nice thing to do. 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:03.599 That's not why it's powerful. 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:15.599 It's powerful because if an individual and a group of people, an organization all have a collective superpower rating, every time they accomplish something, they realize they can do more. 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:17.599 The superpower rating goes up. 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.440 But if you call it out and recognize it, it goes up even more. 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:24.079 And when does it need to really go up? 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.640 Right before they're about to take on something really hard. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:27.039 Yeah. 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:30.880 That they can be reminded and remind themselves, we've figured this out before. 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:32.559 We're gonna figure it out again. 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.960 That's where faith in yourself matters because you don't know what the answer is yet. 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:49.599 And great leaders, what I learned from I remember great CEO in 2002 or three that I was working for got all their leaders together and said, Oh, we have to now go from level four to level five of success. 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:51.920 And level four was hard to get to. 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.599 And they said, How are we gonna do it? 00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:54.720 And we were all like, Oh, good. 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:55.759 He's gonna tell us the answer. 00:18:55.839 -->

00:18:57.279 And he goes, I don't know. 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:02.079 He said, But I know everyone in this room can figure it out because look at how you figured out four. 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:02.720 Yeah. 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:03.039 Yeah. 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.599 I was and I remember looking at him going, wow, what a great leader. 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:09.039 That was smart. 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:12.319 And we figured it out, and we got to the next level, right? 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:17.440 So your point about individual to org, to me, it is the same blueprint. 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.359 Just expand it out. 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:25.759 And and and when you think about encouraging all the things, the most powerful thing being diversity, diversity of thought. 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:32.319 Like I think the difference engine is what drives every human, every group of people, and our life and our world. 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.359 Like if you and I were exactly the same, this conversation would be nothing. 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:41.440 So that you have to cultivate that all the time because everyone does think they're different and they are. 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:46.079 And so we have to help and support that, encourage that. 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:55.519 And the more people feel comfortable expressing that, which is why diversity matters so much for communities that are underrepresented and need to be more represented, the more enriched our lives will be. 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:56.960 I think difference gives meaning. 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:58.720 And that's a big part of the book, too. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:00.079 So I'm hearing a couple of things. 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:15.759 One of the things that I'm hearing is that belief is such an important part of this, not necessarily knowing how you're going to get to the next level individually or as an organization or for your mission, but believing in yourself, believing in the collective. 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.359 Hey, we've gotten from level, I think the way you said it, to level four. 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.079 So we're going to get to level five with the same crew. 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:40.880 And one of the things that I think reflecting back on that, even myself running Cosmic over the last 16 years and having many breakthroughs and many setbacks, and that kind of just like ebb and flow of things feeling like they're gelled and easy, and things feeling like they're not easy. 00:20:41.920 --> 00:21:00.720 When I don't have self-confidence individually or self-confidence as an org, and I lose that belief where it feels like you're spinning in place, you can't get traction, everything feels like it's just going against you, the experiments are all failing. 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:08.960 That to me is one of the things that's hardest to hold on to is that belief that like we can figure this out, we haven't yet, but I know that we can. 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:23.519 And and it's I think it's a hard balance to strike because you also need to be willing to admit when your ideas are bad and they're and or your hypothesis has failed, even though, of course, you always want it to be the one that's gonna win, that's gonna get you to that next level. 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:37.359 So, how do you find and how do you coach and advise folks at the individual level and at the org level to strike that balance of belief but also realism around, hey, this strategy failed, we need a new one? 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:39.119 Yeah, so it's a great question. 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:43.599 So people, we all do this interesting thing. 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:53.279 We equate confidence and hope and faith with bullshit. 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:55.680 And they're two different things. 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:02.559 So faith that you can figure it out, hope that You will, confidence in your ability. 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:10.960 Those are all about investing in something you can create. 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.599 Bullshit is saying something is other than what it is. 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:16.000 Right. 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:26.640 And authenticity actually is more significant, and so is trust, in order to activate superpowers and ability to seize opportunity, right? 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:33.599 So I remember when I joined the corporate world, one of the first things I experienced was spin. 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:38.799 And I remember I had to start um coaching leaders how to communicate. 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:46.640 And you know, in the old days, when I was growing up, leadership was know the answer and have confidence and tell people what to do. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:59.839 But in the emerging generations we've found ourselves in, I believe it's really shifted to be a power learner, adapt and get the most out of your people, help them figure things out. 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:01.359 So it's the figure it out, right? 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:03.279 Because we've all lived through so much change. 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:03.920 Yeah. 00:23:04.160 --> 00:23:12.079 So I remembered I had to start coaching leaders, and leaders would say when something bad happened, either they wanted to hide it or not talk about it or spin it. 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:18.400 Or so I remember a leader was getting ready and I was preparing this leader for a conversation with the company about something bad that happened. 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.359 And they said, Um, I'm gonna tell everyone that it's okay. 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:23.119 And I said, How do you know that? 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.119 What do you mean it's okay? 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:26.000 What does that mean? 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.039 And how do you know? 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:28.720 And he couldn't answer the question. 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:30.559 I said, Don't say anything you don't know. 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:32.880 I said, also don't tell people how to feel. 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:35.200

Only say things that are true. 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:39.279 And if you don't acknowledge something as bad, number one, you have lost trust. 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.519 They stop listening to everything else you say. 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:41.920 Right. 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:43.839 So he's like, Well, but what do I say? 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:45.519 So I'm gonna give you sort of an example. 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:49.039 This one company I worked at, we lost a really big deal. 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:51.759 And you know, it was a time when the company was struggling. 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.640 So the loss of this deal, this client was a blow. 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:57.359 And so they're like, What do what do we say? 00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:08.480 And I said, say if you knew it was coming, say you knew it was coming and that you prepared a plan, that you've identified other accounts you're gonna replace this account with, or if you're gonna get it back, that. 00:24:08.799 --> 00:24:14.240 Or if you don't know, say we're on the road to figuring it out, and here's how we're gonna do that, and we'll keep you updated as we do. 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:14.640 Yeah. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.799 I don't know is a very powerful, honest thing to say, but honesty is more important. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.839 First, establish trust, then invite them in to help you figure it out. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:26.079 I said, say all those things. 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.240 You can say, I know we'll figure it out. 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:34.000 I have faith in that, but don't tell people how to feel and don't tell people the outcome when you don't know it, right? 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:39.759 I also remember one time a CEO was talking about some difficult changes we're making at the org. 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:42.799 And they didn't want to say anything bad. 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.720 They said, I don't want to deflate everyone. 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:49.200 And I said, But you have to answer honestly. 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:54.720 If you don't know, you don't know, which is powerful because you show that it's okay not to know, and a lot of times we don't know. 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.759 Um, I said, the other thing is I had to give this person a rule. 00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:59.119 So I said, I want to give you a rule. 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:00.960 We're gonna call it the politician's rule. 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:06.480 When someone asks you a question, the very first thing you have to say is yes or no, or whatever the answer is, X. 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:07.759 Yes, no, or X. 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:13.200 Do not go on a story, do not distract or divert, right? 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:14.400 Do not deflect. 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:19.440 Because the moment you don't answer the question in your first word, they don't even hear your second word. 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:22.000 They know you're not answering the question. 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:22.480 Right. 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:35.680 And that rule has served many a leader and me too, when we are all so tempted as leaders to want to make it okay or explain context before giving the painful truth. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:37.920 So start with the answer. 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:40.240 So someone says, Did we fire people? 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:41.039 Yes. 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:42.720 Are we gonna fire more? 00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.240 If the answer is yes, yes, and if it's maybe, maybe, and if it's we don't know, we don't know. 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:46.480 Right. 00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:48.960 And if we can't tell you, it's we can't tell you. 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:49.200 Yeah. 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:50.079 Why? 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:50.559 Right. 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:56.400 So those become really important to that build of trust and confidence. 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:00.240 Then once people know they're they're in it with you, you'll figure it out. 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.839 Now, here's the other thing I want to address that you said stuff is bad sometimes. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.119 That's life. 00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:08.240 And there's a great book that a close friend of mine had me read. 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:14.559 And one of my favorite things, my friend Jason had me read this book, and one of everyone's read this book, but I can't wrap the name of it right now. 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:18.079 One of his principles is why do humans avoid pain? 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:18.960 It is life. 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:20.160 You can't avoid it. 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:22.000 It's coming for you, whether you do or you don't. 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.000 And it's how we learn, and and in pain, we are forged, right? 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:26.400 Right. 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:27.920 That builds us. 00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:35.920 So um, you know, recently I was coaching a leadership team, and they're like, Oh, we don't we need to be aligned because we don't want the team to see us fight. 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.759 I'm like, no, that's not true. 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:39.839 You should be 70 or 80% aligned. 00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:43.680 You should not be 100% because diversity should keep breeding different ideas. 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.240 And everyone knows that no people, no two people or more are 100% anyway. 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:49.920 They should see you fight. 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:51.440 They should just know that you know how to do it. 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:51.599 Right. 00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:51.920 Yeah. 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.599 And how to get to resolution in a way where it's collective. 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:56.799 We've come to an agreement. 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:01.119 We've agreed and committed, we've disagreed and committed, we are aligned in the go forward. 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:02.880 That's what they need to see. 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:07.519 If you don't show them you fight, they just think you're hiding something

and that lowers trust. 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:17.359 But if they see fight and they're like, oh, fight is fine, we get through it, and then we have better ideas at the end, that is power because you got to adapt, and adapt will mean friction. 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:19.839 So that's the other thing when people say to me, like, we're really off right now. 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:22.400 The org feels offer, I feel offer, we're all uncertain. 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.759 That is the feeling of your being telling you it's time to change something. 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.119 And let yourself feel that way until you change something. 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.960 Hey friends, real quick before we continue today's episode. 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:40.400 I'm Eric Ressler, founder and creative director at Cosmic. 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.440 Cosmic is a creative agency purpose-built for nonprofits and mission-driven organizations. 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:50.480 For the last 15 years, we've helped leaders like you nail your impact story and sharpen your strategy. 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.920 But we're not here to just leave you with a fancy slide deck and a pat on the back. 00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:58.960 We roll up our sleeves and help you bring our ideas to life through campaigns, creative, and digital experiences. 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:04.319 Our work together helps you earn trust, connect deeply with your supporters, and grow your fundraising and your impact. 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.720 If you've valued the thinking we share here and want it applied to your biggest challenges, let's talk at design by cosmic.com. 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:13.119 All right, back to today's conversation. 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:45.519 And I've talked about this before on the show, and I don't want to get too into it again, but last year was a particularly difficult year for us and for a lot of social impact organizations, just with all the stuff going on with the funding ecosystem changing, you know, orgs, especially progressive orgs being under extra scrutiny from the current US administration. 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:55.119 And, you know, basically we saw a lot of orgs, and I don't say this judgmentally, essentially kind of freeze up, like, you know, hunker down and wait, kind of see what's going on. 00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:00.880 You know, how do you plan in a year like last year when so much is uncertain and and chaotic? 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:13.200 And what that does to an agency like ours that helps organizations through transformational pivotal moments is that a lot less people are calling folks like us to help them get through those moments. 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:27.599 And I had to have a lot of really tough conversations with my team about yeah, some of that uncertainty and some of the not knowing and you know, the reality of like, hey, here's where we're at, here's the trajectory, here's what's gonna happen if this doesn't start to go better. 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.640 We're gonna have to do pay cuts or reductions, you know. 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:43.599 I and I struggle with that a lot, frankly, to figure out, you know, in a time like that where my team is also uncertain and you know, they're smart folks, they're looking at the space and looking at who we are and putting two and two together pretty quickly. 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:48.720 And there's an impetus for me to be like, don't worry, it's gonna be okay, we're gonna get through this, right? 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:52.720 Or uh try and kind of paper over the difficulty. 00:29:52.880 --> 00:30:01.759 And I chose instead to, I think, follow a lot of the advice that you just outlined um in your earlier response, which was to be transparent about here's what might happen. 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.319 We don't really know what's gonna happen. 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.839 Uh, we can't make promises because we we don't know, right? 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:15.920 And it's really hard as a leader to say we don't know or we're not sure because you want to be able to provide that certainty for your team. 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.319 Yeah. 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:19.599 Hey, you're safe, you're okay, we're gonna figure this out. 00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:28.880 And I think one of the other things I've struggled with too as a leader that I've heard other leaders express to me as well is like you feel a sense of wanting to take care of the team, right? 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:30.319 Of wanting to keep them safe. 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:35.359 And and even like, hey, it's not their job sometimes for these folks to figure out how to keep the business alive. 00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:36.559 They didn't sign up for that, right? 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:37.920 They signed up for their role. 00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:47.519 But I do think there is a shift, and I think a healthy shift if it's done in in the right way, where everyone gets ownership over keeping the ship alive. 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.759 And and this obviously depends very highly on the type of org and the size of the org. 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:58.319 But at the end of the day, to your point, an organization is just one organism um made up of people. 00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:11.119 And it's not um, we're not in a place, and I think this is healthy where like leadership figures it out, develops a strategy, and it's just kind of top-down, you know, hunker down, do your job, and everything will work. 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.359 Like, first of all, that's not how it's ever been. 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:19.359 It's not gonna work like in this current world where things are evolving so quickly, it's it's not gonna be possible. 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:32.640 And so I think there's a there's a tension there for me around like how do I engage my team deeply and authentically without asking them to do things that maybe they didn't sign up for, right? 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:35.279 That feels like, hey, this is these are

high stakes. 00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:41.359 This is like, you know, you hired me as a designer or developer, like you're asking me about like our business strategy now. 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:56.720 Now, what I found is that my team steps up to those and and and feels good about being included in those levels, but I still think there's kind of a balance around like how there are certain things that leadership probably should be responsible for at the end of the day. 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.039 And I think everyone's gonna have to find their own balance there. 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:06.799 So I'd be curious to hear like how you think about advising leaders on where to strike that balance and how to think about making those choices. 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:17.039 Yeah, I mean, that's a great point and a just a great framing question about that balance, because we've had to deal with that and I've had to deal with that at almost every organization I've been at, right? 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:17.359 Right. 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:19.039 So, okay, a few things. 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:26.880 With the kind of social and tectonic world shifts that have happened in the last few years, even going back to COVID, right? 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:35.200 Where suddenly survival was mingled with daily existence and no longer a given, right? 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:48.160 Right, you had so many situations where all of us as as leaders and when you are a leader, there is a built-in salvation savior complex, right? 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:58.559 Just like paternal, maternal, protect, take care of, um, help them save them and get them to happiness and safety and survival. 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.240 And as we all know, no one can save anyone else, like generally. 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:06.640 So what do you find? 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:20.160 You find that you you discover what it is you can do to help somebody and to help empower and unleash them, and that is the most you will do for them. 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:34.319 Because anything you do to actually save them that doesn't put agency in their hands is not only secondary, it can become risky because then it's a dependency out of self-sufficiency, which is sort of more foolproof. 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:40.079 And then if humans are like a tool in the world, this tool is meant to function. 00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:47.440 So a human is meant to create, their identity is meant to mature, and they have to be the driver of that. 00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:49.599 We just have to support and equip them. 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:59.039 So I remember right after COVID, uh I was training and meeting with a bunch of managers, and I asked them how successful they were in the last few years. 00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:01.839 And like 53% said they failed. 00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:02.640 And I said, why? 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:10.239 And they said because we couldn't make our people feel safe during both COVID and the racism that followed. 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:15.760 And I said, That means you're becoming a really good manager when you realize you can't do that. 00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:29.679 All you could do in that situation is a really good example is let them know you were there for them, engage them in what they were experiencing, and understanding the best ways you could support them in all those situations, right? 00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:39.519 Being an ally, standing up, helping to drive an unleash and support diversity, um, guiding them on the things they needed to do, stay safe through COVID, et cetera. 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:41.119 And it's always the case. 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:52.320 So if you think now over the last year or two, when suddenly the world for many turned upside down again, leaders have to say, well, what can we provide? 00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:05.119 So transparency, inclusion, putting, you know, co-designing with them where they have the ability to co-design, but then knowing where there's not enough expertise for co-design. 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:09.039 So it's more like input or awareness. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:11.920 And then where they want you to own more of it. 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:20.719 So, you know, if if I'm in the house with my parents and we go for a drive, it doesn't make sense for them to ask me to drive, also if I'm eight years old. 00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:21.360 Right. 00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:26.480 And if I'm 10 and we have to get out of the house because there's a fire, again, I don't think I should be co-designing that process. 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:28.639 They should just tell me what to do and I'll do it. 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.119 Right. 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:29.599 Right. 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:37.280 So, but then there are other areas where either I'm learning and I can offer input that actually is guided and material. 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:45.840 And then as I'm even more senior, like senior employees in an organization or domain experts in an area, then there's more you can put in their hands. 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:50.960 So, as an example, I I believe in a leadership model around distributed leadership. 00:35:52.079 --> 00:36:00.239 Put as many decisions in the hands of the employees doing the work as you can because they're closest to it and they have the expertise and they have the context, right? 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:00.719 Right. 00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:14.000 And then balance with decisions that might be more remote to them or less familiar, or perhaps tied to bigger picture elements where there's different domain expertise required and different context. 00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:18.079 And then just share and help in learning and teaching that. 00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:22.239 But you have to invite people and say, this is what this now means. 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.039 Here's what we want you to participate in. 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.159 And sometimes you have to experiment and see when it doesn't work.

00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:32.880 So I've, you know, the last few companies I've had moments where an employee said, like, we don't want to co-design. 00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:36.239 Like a lot of times they want to co-design, but sometimes we'll be like, No, you just tell us the answer. 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:37.760 And that's fair, right? 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:45.440 And then sometimes we put stuff in people's hands and then we see that it didn't work or they can't handle it, or they're handling too much. 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:45.920 Right. 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:50.719 So we take it back and say, you know what, this didn't totally work in the way we wanted it to support you. 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.840 So that means we just need to do some more build if we're ready for this kind of co-design. 00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:57.119 So let's stage that. 00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.719 And I'm a big believer in roadmaps. 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:06.320 So one of the things you made me think of just now is I I played Dungeon Dragons since I was like 12, and it's all about maps. 00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:12.639 So I think when an organization exists, it should have a map of where it is now, where it was in the last two years and where it's going to be in the next two. 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:17.440 And it should say one or two things that'll be changing about the major business and vision. 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:24.719 And then the one, two, or three things the people, the process, and the technology will need to do to keep up and to help that should just be there. 00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:32.719 And eventually you have all your employees building that together and putting it on the walls as like cool art with milestone moments for off sites and things like that. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:34.880 It makes a huge difference. 00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:35.920 It really does. 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:49.599 It's the difference between if you're driving the car and I'm in the backseat and I'm your kid and we hit a bump and you didn't say a word to me, how I'll react, versus if you told me there's about to be a bump, don't worry about it. 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:50.079 Right. 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.840 So it's the same thing with organizations, but multiplied. 00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.239 And so it allows people to know, like, oh, next we're gonna have to adapt more. 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:06.960 We go to fewer meetings, or we proxy more of our perspective, or our worldviews need to, we need to spend a lot more time sharing our worldviews and aligning them. 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.639 Uh, or this part of the company is most important this year, but then next year that part will be, and everyone gets a turn. 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:23.599 Like all those things become really helpful as you're defining to what unique contributions and unique superpowers the individuals and the teams bring. 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.840 Because just like we were comparing individual to collective, self-esteem is the same way. 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:29.519 There's corporate self-esteem. 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:35.840 So what I found there was this one point where we had this organization I was at, we were very centralized. 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:37.679 There were a lot of satellite offices. 00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:42.719 We had a new CEO and we'd moved a lot of decision making back to the headquarters. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:50.800 But it was a global organization, and of course, everyone else felt really excluded and suddenly unimportant and and a bit dethroned. 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:52.320 So everyone's like, What do we do? 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:55.679 And I said, Well, each one of those offices has an expertise. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:58.000 They have a set of superpowers that we rely on. 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:03.599 It's like Singapore is great at payments, London is great at mobile, like we had all these different things. 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:08.480 And I said, We should make that known because humans are need-based. 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:17.599 When they understand we need them because in London, because they are mobile experts, and mobile is the tip of the spear for our business, they will get a lot more comfortable with their position. 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:19.199 And that worked. 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:20.159 That actually worked. 00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:21.599 You have to build it and make it real. 00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:23.280 You can just like say it at a meeting. 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:28.800 It has to show up in the decisions you give them to make and the responsibility and the resources they get. 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:38.400 But once we did that, then that became a really strong unifying force, an identity, unifying force for each different team. 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:45.920 And and it gave them sort of support when they weren't going to be the center of something going on. 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.079 Um, but then we were also honest and said the headquarters is the headquarters. 00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:52.159 It is the steering wheel of the organization. 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.679 So just know that you know, when we do meetings, we'll make sure we're super inclusive. 00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:59.280 Other offices will present, other people will be involved, there'll be communication. 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:07.199 We designed strategies to support distributed staff, but the headquarters is the headquarters, and that's where the CEO is. 00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:12.400 So we also were just our CEO made a really smart move, which was she said, that is the reality. 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:12.880 Yep. 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:16.239 And so we're gonna balance this, but we're gonna be honest with you too. 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:20.239 Working in London is not the same as working in wherever the headquarters is. 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.159 So I think that learning helped too. 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:28.000 So to your point about

teams, I mean, it is a lot. 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:35.280 This last this last period of time has been so intense and and we're in a fractured state of media. 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:44.159 We're you know in divided nations and worlds, there's so much conflict, and that's when you have to get into like everyone has different worldviews. 00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:56.159 Success for a community and an organization and an individual is when you can understand other worldviews and yours and connect them, right? 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:01.039 And then see what happens when they come together through their difference to create something different. 00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:09.679 So I came up with three principles after trying to moderate a lot of debate about really intense issues over the last two years that have helped. 00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:18.000 One was whenever I'm dealing with parties who are really going in debate, I say let's focus on getting to unity through division. 00:41:18.400 --> 00:41:19.760 Like let's make that our goal. 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.679 How do we, what will we decide? 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:23.599 What will we go forward with, right? 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:27.599 And we'll do the debate, but the idea is to get to a point of unity. 00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:35.119 And then the second one was because a lot was coming up about being right, who's right? 00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:45.039 So I said, how about we just focus on we let's replace who's right with human rights and make that our priority more than who's right, because who's ever right, right? 00:41:45.920 --> 00:42:02.559 And then um my third one was can we enter into a conversation with the goal being I'm gonna broaden my lens by understanding what you're thinking instead of I'm going to share what I'm thinking. 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:03.199 Yep. 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:03.760 Right. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.079 And if those are our goals, I think we get to better outcomes. 00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:08.639 Right. 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:19.440 But what we then say, what do we have an opportunity to now create by bringing these different elements together instead of just a war of worldviews, which is it's endless, that doesn't end. 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:21.039 It's not constructive, right? 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:22.079 No, yeah. 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:22.639 Yeah. 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:31.360 There's possibility to get to something amazing if we combine what you and I are thinking, and then so on and so forth, and multiply that exponentially, but that has to be your goal. 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:32.719 That has to be your framework. 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:34.800 Otherwise, all conversations are ridiculous. 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.360 They're just me going, This is my worldview, and then you go, This is my worldview. 00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:38.320 And I go, Okay, well, mine's right. 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:39.199 And you go, Yeah, mine too. 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:40.320 What a coincidence, right? 00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:40.639 Right. 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:48.000 So yeah, I we've learned uh through some work with clients this concept of constructive disagreement, which I think is basically what you're describing. 00:42:48.320 --> 00:43:02.960 And um, one of the things that stood out to me about that is you have to go into those conversations with the goal not being to prove yourself right, but the goal being to truly, deeply and fully understand the other party's point of view and to really empathize with it. 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:07.440 Um, even if you don't end up agreeing with it, even at the end of the day, you walk away saying, Hey, you know what? 00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.000 I I understand more about your perspective. 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:15.519 And I still feel that mine is actually more accurate or that my idea is the right one. 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:21.039 But now I have a better understanding of where you're coming from and how you got to your idea. 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:21.440 Yeah. 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:23.360 Um, and it broadens your lens. 00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:29.119 So early on in career, after I joined the corporate world and saw this constant debate of who's right. 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:33.840 Two principles I formulated based on my logical, the logic training I did in rabbinical school. 00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:42.400 One was um always, whenever someone would come to me and say, like, I'm gonna fight with this other team, my first question, first premise, what are they thinking? 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:43.360 Yeah, right, exactly. 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.920 I want you to know what they're thinking, I want them to know what you're thinking. 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:49.599 Second premise, you can't challenge an idea until you understand why it might be right. 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.159 Yes. 00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.320 So defend the other side first. 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:54.559 Then we can talk about the challenge. 00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:59.760 And then the third one is you gotta be able to debate and battle through things. 00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.360 To get to a better conclusion of what happens when they come together. 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:03.760 Right. 00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:04.239 Right. 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.199 And so we all have to be comfortable with that. 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:18.880 We have to accept the personal, the passionate, but focus on we're going to get to this collective shared goal together that'll take us further than if we just did it individually. 00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:19.599 Right. 00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:20.159 Right. 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:24.000 And if you have that shared vision, then there's something to have a debate about. 00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:30.960 And we should welcome diverse opinions and ideas and hypotheses around how to get there and not just pick one and go all in on it, right? 00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:31.760 Let's try a couple things.

00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.480 Now you can't always do that, but I think often you can, right? 00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:39.360 You don't need to make a choice that's like, well, uh, we all disagree, so we're going with this strategy. 00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:41.599 How about we all have different ideas around how to get there? 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:44.400 Let's test them and let the world decide which one's going to win. 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:49.679 Um, I think that's more of a kind of almost scientific method experimental approach to doing the work. 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:50.639 I agree. 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:54.719 And it leads me to an idea that I want to share that I came to. 00:44:54.800 --> 00:45:00.239 I kind of realized, I don't, someone said something to me in an interview years ago that made me realize this. 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:09.199 But uh, I think, you know, I was telling you that um, well, I've been reading comics since I was eight, right? 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:10.880 I really like 30 a week. 00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:17.039 And so I realized when we share our stories with each other through media, we end up creating ourselves and each other. 00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:21.039 We're all like walking amalgams of all the people that we've met in our in our lives. 00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:29.280 So when you think about it that way, every time you interact, you're creating a being created anew. 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:41.199 And so looking at it as I'm about to go into a meeting and debate with Eric about whatever is gonna become Sandy plus Eric and Eric plus Sandy, and that new equation is more. 00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:42.239 Right. 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.760 And that that's the experiential learners that we are. 00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:57.519 And so if we start framing it like that, then anything is possible because we'll always come up with something new, we'll always be able to go somewhere new because it's gonna be more than just me or you, right? 00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:04.880 And that discovery is if if you center that, I do think people can do anything, as we've seen. 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:07.679 I think that's a a great place to wrap up. 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:17.920 Um, before we do, where can folks who are interested in learning more about you follow you, see your work, eventually buy the book and and and get a little bit more of this thinking? 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:24.960 Because I think it's so important for people to be considering these things in their journey as individuals, as leaders, as organizations. 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.360 Yeah, this is your time to just kind of plug all the things. 00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:28.079 Awesome. 00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:29.119 Thank you so much for that. 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:33.119 And for this conversation, I love conversations like this because they're transformative. 00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:35.280 Um, and you do a great job at it. 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:36.800 So that mission is really important. 00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:38.960 So I'm glad you're doing it because humanity needs it. 00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:39.360 Thank you. 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:43.039 Uh we need those activators, which is sort of one of my ideas, right? 00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:44.960 About the people who activate us. 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.719 So um my website is sandygool.com. 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:51.360 It's not live yet, but it will be by the time the book goes out. 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:52.159 That's one. 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.239 The book will also be on Amazon. 00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.320 You can find out about me on my LinkedIn. 00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:04.639 I do a lot of posting and videos on LinkedIn about creating, about superpowers, and about the job market and things like that and your career. 00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:12.320 Uh, and on Spider Sandy, which is my Instagram, um, and more to come in September. 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:14.320 There'll be the book will be coming out. 00:47:14.480 --> 00:47:36.079 And then I'm going to be doing videos in the similar format where I'm interviewing people that are in the book that I've interviewed, like Abby Wombach and Bobby Brown, and people who just um Takidra from Waymo, people who I've met along the way who really, you know, showed me their mission and how it was turning into their superpowers as they were changing the world in some pretty profound ways. 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.159 So those videos will be out. 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:44.800 And then there'll be one-minute videos too about different aspects of the book about superpowers and activating your superpowers. 00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:45.360 Very cool. 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:47.840 Looking forward to doing all of that with the world. 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:48.639 That's the goal. 00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:49.199 Awesome. 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:49.440 Yeah. 00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:50.239 Thank you, Sandy. 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.719 This has been great. 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:55.199 Really enjoyed the conversation and uh looking forward to checking out the book when it's out. 00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:55.840 Awesome. 00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:56.800 You'll be getting it. 00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:58.079 So don't you worry. 00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:59.519 All right, man. 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:00.480 Thank you for your time today. 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:01.440 Thank you too. 00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:01.920 Be well. 00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:02.320 Okay. 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:03.119 Cheers. 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:10.559 If you enjoyed today's video, please be sure to hit like and subscribe, or even leave us a comment. 00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:11.519 It really helps. 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:12.159 Thank you. 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:18.159 And thank you for all that you do for your cause and for being part of the movement to move humanity and the planet forward.