Full Transcript for The Food Industry is LYING to You! (ft. Simon Evill & Christopher Ramsay)

severe flooding. Uh, 29 00:02:28,130 --> 00:02:31,360 and they may even have have witnessed the quality of their produce 30 00:02:31,770 --> 00:02:35,449 decline, with industrial methods, 31 00:02:35,559 --> 00:02:39,050 i.e., industrial inputs that generally speaking, don't build soil. 32 00:02:39,559 --> 00:02:44,460 And don't therefore produce a food that is able to benefit 33 00:02:44,460 --> 00:02:48,720 from having a healthy stock such that the root zone can swap 34 00:02:48,979 --> 00:02:53,009 the nutrients across the full spectrum that we've evolved to need 35 00:02:53,300 --> 00:02:58,220 that go into the food and produce a nutritious vegetable or a nutritious grass that. 36 00:02:58,410 --> 00:03:01,750 Livestock would eat that we would then consume that allow us 37 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,600 to allow our bodily functions to thrive based on 38 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,789 the full nutrient spectrum that only healthy soils can 39 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:17,240 produce. So would you say like an apple produced in one type of soil will have a totally different nutrient? 40 00:03:18,330 --> 00:03:22,389 Content to one in healthy soil. So, so I mean 41 00:03:22,490 --> 00:03:27,919 that would be context specific, but there would be differences depending on the, 42 00:03:28,119 --> 00:03:32,240 the, the health, which is said in huge brackets of that soil. 43 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:35,889 But there's, there's a perceived, I mean there's a, 44 00:03:35,929 --> 00:03:39,509 there's a quote that's sort of often bandied around at the moment, which is a, 45 00:03:39,570 --> 00:03:43,490 a supermarket store bought carrot of , 46 00:03:43,550 --> 00:03:49,759 1939, so pre-war. Has 12x more macronutrient 47 00:03:50,279 --> 00:03:55,029 in terms of profiling versus a store bought carrot of today. 48 00:03:55,410 --> 00:03:59,339 And that is, yes, there are genetic reasons for that in terms of 49 00:03:59,339 --> 00:04:05,029 the type of carrots that are most commonly sold for how long their shelf life is what they 50 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:13,059 look like in terms of aesthetics, And I suppose ease of quickness of of growth. 51 00:04:13,990 --> 00:04:18,440 but the other reason is that our soils are literally more depleted than they were. 52 00:04:18,670 --> 00:04:23,500 And so the ability for that carrot to draw up the nutrients that it would have had have changed. 53 00:04:23,859 --> 00:04:28,320 Yeah, because when you think of, say, the nutritional content of a carrot, 54 00:04:28,350 --> 00:04:33,109 I'm sure when you look it up online, it will say it's got this much. 55 00:04:34,130 --> 00:04:38,929 Carbohydrate, this much protein, this much like like an average or something, 56 00:04:39,010 --> 00:04:45,519 right? so maybe that needs to be looked into more like not all carrots are created equal, 57 00:04:45,929 --> 00:04:50,010 you know, some, no, I mean we we would argue that nutritional labelling as it's, 58 00:04:50,049 --> 00:04:55,320 you know, well intentioned as it might be, is thoroughly misleading because of exactly that. 59 00:04:56,089 --> 00:04:59,529 And you've averaged things out and the consumer is unaware. 60 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:04,549 But there could be quite drastic differences between the nutritional quality of one product and another. 61 00:05:05,209 --> 00:05:09,440 Right. And we see this as a bit of a white hor I say white horse, 62 00:05:09,519 --> 00:05:15,040 a Trojan horse into at least the consumer being better equipped to 63 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,630 understand what that what is in their food. And once the consumer can really understand and compare, 64 00:05:19,790 --> 00:05:23,989 i.e. a regeneratively grown carrot or a. 65 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,100 A rib eye that's been produced by a cow who has been allowed to, 66 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,880 or has been pasture raised throughout its life and allowed to graze on a 67 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:38,160 diverse sward of of grasses as opposed to the often very monocultural rye grass, 68 00:05:38,529 --> 00:05:43,269 fields that we see our livestock in in the UK at least, If, 69 00:05:43,359 --> 00:05:49,890 if the consumer could see the incredible differences in not just omega 3 to 6 content, 70 00:05:50,359 --> 00:05:56,589 which is obviously sort of basically whether something's really good for you or or perhaps not so good for you, 71 00:05:56,750 --> 00:05:59,750 but the, the, the, the, the, the full array of, of, 72 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:06,529 of nutrients, many of which, you know, we may have taxonomized but might not understand entirely how they 73 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,920 work together or how they biosimilate into our, into our bodies when we eat them. 74 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:16,100 but then if a consumer can have access to these, 75 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:20,380 these differences in nutrient profiles, all roads lead back to regeneration, 76 00:06:21,309 --> 00:06:25,579 or agroecological farming, however, -- one might like to use the -- phrase. 77 00:06:25,709 --> 00:06:29,859 So there's a direct link in between the quality of soil to the quality of the produce 78 00:06:30,109 --> 00:06:36,109 and, in terms of being able to head more in that direction of healthy soil, 79 00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:40,679 healthy food. how can we get away from a kind of 80 00:06:40,679 --> 00:06:45,040 universally average applied nutritional label to all carrots and. 81 00:06:46,239 --> 00:06:50,149 Should it be like what our carrots have, should it be each farm starts to 82 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,390 create their own nutritional label and and then that starts to 83 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:59,350 people start to educate the consumer about the supply chain and how 84 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:05,679 actually there can be different types of carrots and those are the low nutrition ones and these ones are 85 00:07:05,679 --> 00:07:10,549 higher is

that is that where we should be heading and and increasing transparency 86 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:18,440 on that side? I mean, do you want to talk a bit about you go and I'll I'll join in. 87 00:07:18,859 --> 00:07:24,589 Yeah, well that one, well, we've we've invested in a company that is uh 88 00:07:24,899 --> 00:07:28,730 doing many of the things that you've just described, so they're leveraging 89 00:07:28,899 --> 00:07:37,119 on the ground data if you like. So, they're taking samples of food from specific farms in specific supply chains 90 00:07:37,899 --> 00:07:42,109 uh and analysing those foods. and then they're, 91 00:07:42,630 --> 00:07:48,779 benchmarking those, against, how those farms are managed and how that food is produced, 92 00:07:49,989 --> 00:07:53,059 and they're providing a service to brands that are already 93 00:07:53,269 --> 00:07:56,720 on the path towards regenerative agriculture or have already 94 00:07:57,149 --> 00:08:01,100 have been pioneering and adopted those practises for many years, 95 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:05,540 uh, and so they, they have a sense that their produce is of high quality. 96 00:08:05,869 --> 00:08:09,269 They probably know that their produce is of high quality, but now they're looking to. 97 00:08:09,769 --> 00:08:13,519 On the marketing side, be able to translate that to their consumers, 98 00:08:14,239 --> 00:08:18,519 right? So the data side is probably a huge part of that, 99 00:08:18,730 --> 00:08:22,760 and I guess that would bring in AI and. Exactly. 100 00:08:23,769 --> 00:08:28,459 -- And -- we're still pretty limited, you know, you think we've only taxonomized, they say 2% of what's in our soils, 101 00:08:28,489 --> 00:08:32,929 we think it's probably less. And even once you've taxonomized what's in the actual soil, 102 00:08:33,250 --> 00:08:38,330 let alone the food that's grown in the soil, you still need to understand how it interrelates 103 00:08:38,609 --> 00:08:42,239 with each other over the course of a day, a week, a season, a year. 104 00:08:43,530 --> 00:08:49,450 and so uh uh data is going until that data is understood and feeding back to. 105 00:08:50,599 --> 00:08:53,630 us, we're not going to have a full understanding of, of how, 106 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,690 growing and therefore eating and, and eventually our health relate. 107 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:00,909 So you mean like in terms of the content of the soil, 108 00:09:01,239 --> 00:09:05,200 what sort of bacteria, like microorganisms, 109 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,909 etc. all that stuff needs to be looked at because it's all playing a part in the ecosystem 110 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,530 of the soil, which then Yes, but we, 111 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,799 we, we do know some things. So we do know that for example, 112 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:22,500 most agricultural soils that are used to grow crops 113 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:27,510 uh have a have a fundamental imbalance, i.e. they're bacterially dominant, 114 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,880 and they're lacking in fungal microbes. Now, 115 00:09:32,250 --> 00:09:36,739 natural soils and healthy soils have a balance between fungal and bacterial 116 00:09:37,250 --> 00:09:42,440 communities, and that plays an important function in making 117 00:09:42,690 --> 00:09:47,000 minerals available to plants, which is critical for their immune systems, 118 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:50,809 but it's also critical for the nutritional quality that we derive from those crops. 119 00:09:52,989 --> 00:09:57,229 so in industrial farming, we tend to destroy those fungal microbes. 120 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,340 Once you've destroyed them, you break a symbiotic relationship. 121 00:10:00,909 --> 00:10:04,349 The symbiotic relationship is that plants exudate sugars. 122 00:10:05,359 --> 00:10:08,880 as a, as a, as a pathway from photosynthesis, so they, 123 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:12,479 they use CO2 to produce carbohydrates. 124 00:10:13,530 --> 00:10:18,599 Via photosynthesis, but they dump some of those sugars through their, 125 00:10:18,650 --> 00:10:22,960 through their roots, which are porous, to bacteria. 126 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,719 those bacteria consume the sugars and exchange back to the plant vital nutrients 127 00:10:28,719 --> 00:10:32,869 that have been that have been mined in the soil by fungal microbes. 128 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:39,150 So the fungal microbes are, will actually penetrate into the into the into the bedrock 129 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,909 of the soil and will actually break up mineral particles and make them available 130 00:10:43,909 --> 00:10:47,000 at the root zone to plants via this interaction with bacteria. 131 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:52,219 Right, so it's a whole team effort. That's what I think is very misunderstood 132 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:58,000 in the mainstream, that's something which people, when especially when you have these farms that are using a lot of chemicals, 133 00:10:58,070 --> 00:11:01,219 they're like using fungicides. Pesticides, etc. 134 00:11:01,599 --> 00:11:06,599 they're just trying to kill everything else to try to just leave whatever crop they're builder. 135 00:11:07,409 --> 00:11:11,400 Trying to grow and they ignore all of that, 136 00:11:11,570 --> 00:11:15,010 right? They're almost not taking that into account but then how, 137 00:11:15,229 --> 00:11:18,729 -- how much of this is known by the average farmer -- or 138 00:11:18,729 --> 00:11:21,760 some of it is is very much experienced by the farmer, 139 00:11:21,929 --> 00:11:25,239 so there is a visible proxy so compaction would be 140 00:11:25,609 --> 00:11:29,440 one example and in in this bad weather that we've got at the moment, 141 00:11:29,929 --> 00:11:33,609 huge amounts of pooling, so water that's just stuck, you know, 142 00:11:33,690 --> 00:11:36,809 in puddles trapped on the landscape and it's not infiltrating. 143

00:11:37,450 --> 00:11:40,719 So those, those management practises that have used, for example, 144 00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:45,760 fungicides have destroyed that those biological communities 145 00:11:46,369 --> 00:11:49,679 and the soil has basically collapsed on top of itself. 146 00:11:50,690 --> 00:11:54,320 So, so by having the fun by having those communities grow, 147 00:11:54,450 --> 00:11:58,799 it aerates the soil, creates more space in it like 148 00:11:59,169 --> 00:12:02,270 -- allows it to hold water better like -- that. So, 149 00:12:02,369 --> 00:12:06,530 so one practical, so one conceptualization which is very useful about what 150 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:10,200 healthy soil is like is it's like a cake, a spongy cake. 151 00:12:10,849 --> 00:12:15,080 So it's full of air and it's full of porosity and it has a. 152 00:12:15,510 --> 00:12:20,299 A maximal ability to absorb and infiltrate water and nutrients 153 00:12:20,549 --> 00:12:25,869 and oxygen can infiltrate it. and healthy soil is, 154 00:12:26,239 --> 00:12:30,159 it's like flour, you know, it's one way perhaps one way of thinking of it. 155 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:36,719 It's, it's both, denuded of life, but it also can't absorb the water and it can't absorb the nutrients. 156 00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:40,000 In fact, that those nutrients in those waters run off the landscape and 157 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,039 go straight into our riparians and then out to sea. 158 00:12:43,929 --> 00:12:47,559 And I mean, this is really touching up from like 159 00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:51,719 the core of why we're doing this and why, 160 00:12:51,859 --> 00:12:56,719 you know, we think what we're doing is is needs to have the drum banged as loudly as possible. 161 00:12:57,369 --> 00:13:01,299 If you increase so. matter. You make your soil healthier 162 00:13:01,710 --> 00:13:06,739 by better farming practises, which might be cover cropping and not ploughing and 163 00:13:07,270 --> 00:13:12,539 reducing or completely getting rid of chemical inputs, introducing livestock ideally, 164 00:13:12,770 --> 00:13:19,559 having sensible rotations. Uh, the, the kind of main pillars of what might be termed regenerative farming. 165 00:13:20,130 --> 00:13:24,960 You're, you're holding water in the landscape more, so carbon itself is hydrophilic, 166 00:13:25,489 --> 00:13:28,640 but also the structure of this more cake-like soil 167 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,719 becomes more amenable to keeping water in it, whether it's 168 00:13:31,969 --> 00:13:36,609 the . The the holes made by where earthworms have been as an example, 169 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,549 acting like holes in the cake, allowing water to flow through, or whether it's much more 170 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:46,340 microscopic in terms of bacteria moving around and having pockets of 171 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,830 air that water can come through. But the point is it creates, 172 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,770 uh, it holds water in the landscape, and I think it's 25,000 litres per 173 00:13:55,119 --> 00:13:59,630 1% uptick in soil organic matter per acre that can be 174 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:03,520 held in in the landscape as opposed to rushing off. And 175 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,950 it creates a small water cycle, and a small water cycle is transpiration is water coming off the land 176 00:14:09,239 --> 00:14:13,270 and obviously being forming in clouds usually, which also are white, 177 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,840 bounce heat back and eventually precipitate cause rain. 178 00:14:17,260 --> 00:14:21,289 That could be half an acre. Equally, that could be continent scale. 179 00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:25,609 And so what we're trying to show the average 180 00:14:26,219 --> 00:14:31,330 LP investor that might be looking at climate is that soil is this enormous lever 181 00:14:31,539 --> 00:14:36,890 to pull in terms of cooling the planet and in terms of restoring rain, 182 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:41,539 and restoring weather and. You know, there's a sort of common misconception that 183 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:47,460 rain really only likes areas that are so far from the coast because most of the rain comes from the seas and 184 00:14:47,809 --> 00:14:51,690 eventually it gets dropped in the land and then you have sort of dry clouds coming further in. 185 00:14:51,859 --> 00:14:55,429 That's just simply not true, you know, the, the, the Sahara was a. 186 00:14:55,989 --> 00:15:01,280 A thriving, savannah at points and there are wonderful archaeological, 187 00:15:02,270 --> 00:15:05,950 uh, finding showing very complex civilizations in the middle of 188 00:15:05,950 --> 00:15:09,340 the Sahara that that survived off of plentiful rainfall. 189 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,710 And What's, what we're I suppose trying to do is, 190 00:15:14,719 --> 00:15:18,669 is, is use that. Restoration of the water cycle piece 191 00:15:19,239 --> 00:15:25,570 combined with healthy soils being the only way to ultimately produce healthy food, 192 00:15:25,919 --> 00:15:29,090 which makes a healthy human, which is 193 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,669 the solution to the health crisis in our eyes in terms of 194 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:40,630 preventative medicine, and make that sort of a mainstay of how people think about 195 00:15:41,479 --> 00:15:45,109 solutions in terms of climate moving forward. Yeah, I mean, I think. 196 00:15:45,770 --> 00:15:50,289 It's interesting because I do feel the average consumer is so cut off from 197 00:15:50,659 --> 00:15:55,489 all of these processes. They, they don't know where their food's coming from, 198 00:15:55,739 --> 00:16:00,130 what's, what processes are involved in the agriculture or. 199 00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:04,140 How the, how the food's being made, where it's coming from, 200 00:16:04,219 --> 00:16:08,270 they just go to a supermarket, it's all lined up on shelves and, 201 00:16:08,280 -->

00:16:11,280 you know, little packets, they're not thinking about any of that 202 00:16:11,659 --> 00:16:16,729 and do you think that's one of the problems that the average person has no idea 203 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:21,659 about where it's coming, like how their food's being made and then and and 204 00:16:22,059 --> 00:16:25,510 also that these practises or the traditional 205 00:16:25,510 --> 00:16:31,950 practises and the damage they're causing. And then how that could then affect them and climate change and their nutrition and 206 00:16:32,270 --> 00:16:36,770 their sickness or health. I think this is the this is the, 207 00:16:36,780 --> 00:16:40,380 you know, one of the great enlightenment periods for this, 208 00:16:40,510 --> 00:16:44,619 whether it's the farmer, whether it's the food corporate, whether it's anyone in the supply chain, 209 00:16:44,789 --> 00:16:49,390 whether it's the consumer or the retailer or the marketer, anyone in production. 210 00:16:49,969 --> 00:16:53,280 All of these areas are either being taken up by pressures from 211 00:16:53,650 --> 00:16:58,960 uh legislation or consumer demand, or they're being taken up by science, 212 00:16:59,150 --> 00:17:02,340 frankly, and creating these, these, these great opportunities for, 213 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:06,089 for technologies to come in and and begin to show some light. 214 00:17:06,489 --> 00:17:12,118 But, I would say on the consumer front at the moment. The UK is impressive 215 00:17:12,368 --> 00:17:16,739 in that, in terms of trying to become more agroecological, 216 00:17:17,167 --> 00:17:21,538 we are, we're we're pioneering in terms of things like EMS, 217 00:17:21,648 --> 00:17:25,167 the Environmental Land Management scheme programme that the Conservatives put into 218 00:17:25,167 --> 00:17:31,520 place that Labour are now beginning to to push through. or in terms of our woodland carbon code or our peatland carbon code. 219 00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:35,040 These are ever evolving, definitely not by any means 220 00:17:35,609 --> 00:17:40,560 fully fledged, correct, uh, context suitable for wherever you are, 221 00:17:40,930 --> 00:17:45,140 but they are. Leading and the UK 222 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:51,910 perhaps doesn't make as much of a noise about regeneration as the US does to a consumer, 223 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,209 where you will begin to see it on more products, like a label, 224 00:17:56,719 --> 00:18:01,839 is there like a, is there like a -- certification at the moment on -- the 225 00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:05,479 regenerative rock regenerative organic certification? 226 00:18:05,869 --> 00:18:08,930 Yeah, in America they have I think a couple of upcoming. 227 00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:13,410 Because I would imagine regenerative agriculture involves 228 00:18:13,619 --> 00:18:17,119 a bunch of things you need to implement. It's not just, 229 00:18:17,219 --> 00:18:21,270 you know, And it's ever growing and that's why

you guys are 230 00:18:21,270 --> 00:18:25,170 in the space is all all different companies all doing different 231 00:18:25,459 --> 00:18:28,989 contributing to different aspects of it and you know. Yeah, 232 00:18:29,349 --> 00:18:32,500 -- it's -- got levels to it. One analogy, it's, it's like, 233 00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:36,010 you know, if, if I've used this analogy before, I don't know whether people like it, 234 00:18:36,050 --> 00:18:40,180 but in, in, in mixed martial arts when they first started the UFC 235 00:18:40,489 --> 00:18:45,780 you might call that level 1 and maybe we're at level 3 or 4 now in terms of the sophistication 236 00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:49,930 of the athletes and the roundedness of their skill sets. 237 00:18:51,569 --> 00:18:57,890 regenerative farming is not massively dissimilar, you can get to level one and there's a lot of farmers in the UK that are 238 00:18:58,260 --> 00:19:05,569 dabbling with level one, but you know, there's very few elite farmers that have been doing this for decades and have 239 00:19:05,939 --> 00:19:09,410 integrated, uh. An entirely holistic 240 00:19:09,819 --> 00:19:14,270 approach to how they manage their not just the health of the farm from an ecological standpoint, 241 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:19,500 but the health of their business, so regenerative farming at its at its best is 242 00:19:19,869 --> 00:19:22,900 much more abundant, much more profitable, and much more fun. 243 00:19:23,579 --> 00:19:29,339 Yeah and just give you in terms of keeping the the analogy going in terms of 244 00:19:29,670 --> 00:19:32,829 how it's not necessarily wedded to a particular method, 245 00:19:32,869 --> 00:19:36,349 it's almost a in terms of Bruce Lee 246 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,849 going about and -- collecting his preferred -- methods, 247 00:19:41,060 --> 00:19:45,770 it's always context specific, right? -- So one -- thing that works in one environment, 248 00:19:45,939 --> 00:19:49,300 one climate, the strate the strategy, 249 00:19:49,579 --> 00:19:55,939 you know, the overall goal is generally speaking the same. The overall goal is to improve the land and improve the health of the 250 00:19:55,939 --> 00:19:59,329 business and improve the lives of those that are working on the land. 251 00:19:59,689 --> 00:20:03,459 So in that sense, that's a pattern that crosses all cultures and all farmland. 252 00:20:03,959 --> 00:20:07,010 But then underneath that, the strategies and the tactics vary 253 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,829 greatly because they have to be context specific. You know, you might be on a farm in the hills, 254 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,810 you know, owning a tractor is, is a preposterous idea, 255 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,040 so it's a non-starter to head down the direction of, you know, 256 00:20:21,239 --> 00:20:25,189 cover cropping or no till farming because it's completely impractical. You've got rocky terrain 257 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:31,199 and you've got impossible weather systems that would come in and would just destroy a crop with uh you know, 258 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,729 one bad weather spell. So. there are principles, 259 00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:39,219 but they are all applied differently in those different contexts. 260 00:20:41,420 --> 00:20:44,819 Darius, just you, you were in terms of the consumer and the 261 00:20:44,819 --> 00:20:49,880 sort of enlightenment of it which sounds deeply patronising, so probably isn't isn't appropriate, 262 00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:55,900 but what's interesting is, how the consumer in a in a in 263 00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,979 sort of many revolutions haven't necessarily played the, the kind of pivotal part, 264 00:21:00,020 --> 00:21:05,040 but there, there are. Various people in this space who think that the consumer 265 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,790 is going to play a more of a leading role in this demand for 266 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,640 more nutrient dense produce that has been farmed in a more agroecological fashion. 267 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,439 And I suppose what's interesting at the moment is the US have 268 00:21:18,439 --> 00:21:22,619 begun to really jump on this and you will see regenerative organic certification 269 00:21:22,959 --> 00:21:26,630 in most supermarkets. In the UK we've had. 270 00:21:27,069 --> 00:21:34,219 Waitrose were the first supermarket to come out and say that all that meat and dairy is going to be regeneratively grown by 2030. 271 00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:40,260 it might be that they can come on quicker and include more in that product range. 272 00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:45,390 They were the first to go, which we thought was quite late for a supermarket to really pin their flag to that mast. 273 00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:50,790 It was, it was earlier this year. Uh, we've had Jeremy Clarkson obviously in NAMA, 274 00:21:50,810 --> 00:21:53,869 the world, uh, you know, love or, or, 275 00:21:53,949 --> 00:21:58,390 or, or not quite love so much, Clarkson. as one might, 276 00:21:58,599 --> 00:22:03,969 he, he, he had a fairly coveted job as head of Top Gear for however many decades. 277 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,130 For him to sit around a fire with his farm manager 278 00:22:08,319 --> 00:22:11,550 and, and his farm team 279 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,229 at the end of that first series and say this is hands down the most satisfied that I've ever been 280 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,800 was, was pretty stirring and you know, with 15 million followers, 281 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,810 it's created a, a groundswell that has managed to engage a younger audience, 282 00:22:24,949 --> 00:22:28,819 which has been part of this issue. And Yes, 283 00:22:28,979 --> 00:22:32,410 in season 3, which finally ended up working with 284 00:22:32,689 --> 00:22:37,130 the wild farmed team and Andy Cato, who's one half of Groove Armada, 285 00:22:37,459 --> 00:22:41,609 who had been farming

traditionally in France and then had discovered 286 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:46,660 a more agroological, eagroecological way of farming. 287 00:22:47,109 --> 00:22:51,420 And produced some, some wonderful wheat doing it and then came back here 288 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:55,829 and prescribes a a a a a a process to farmers 289 00:22:56,189 --> 00:23:00,430 to produce wheat, which he then buys at a premium and puts into the wild Farm flour. 290 00:23:00,630 --> 00:23:05,619 They now have their own brand, Southie Waitrose, and they market it to the consumer very well. 291 00:23:05,829 --> 00:23:10,229 What I'm trying to show is that there's this. It's ever increasing tide of 292 00:23:10,349 --> 00:23:15,729 of consumer, I'd say marketing education that's going on, 293 00:23:15,829 --> 00:23:21,219 which is very much only going to increase. And the the the the the final piece to this is 294 00:23:21,589 --> 00:23:26,739 someone like Chris Van Tulleken. Who has a very famous children's channel. 295 00:23:26,750 --> 00:23:29,810 He's called Doctor Chris, he has a thing called Operation Ouch. 296 00:23:30,060 --> 00:23:33,770 He produces an enormous amount of television, very simply 297 00:23:34,020 --> 00:23:37,949 looking at. Ultra processed foods 298 00:23:38,270 --> 00:23:42,099 and how they can convince the average person that they might be eating 299 00:23:42,099 --> 00:23:48,500 something fairly healthy in the form of perhaps a nutrient bar that you might have as a snack after breakfast. 300 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:53,819 What's, perhaps high glyphosate content can do to you, 301 00:23:54,069 --> 00:23:58,770 what he calls empty calories, which are usually very soft, 302 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:06,069 High calorific foods that have, that are essentially nutritionally void 303 00:24:06,780 --> 00:24:10,900 due to the human body and human brain over a period of time 304 00:24:11,469 --> 00:24:14,829 via ultra-processed formulation and then 305 00:24:15,380 --> 00:24:19,560 sort of fairly subtly what is true in the opposite sense where 306 00:24:19,699 --> 00:24:24,859 if one were to eat whole foods that have come from. Soils that have some health in them. 307 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,040 How our bodily processes are able to thrive. Yeah, I mean, 308 00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:33,310 that's a huge thing or like, I think labelling and 309 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:39,500 there's this app Yuca app which you can scan any barcode and it will tell you, 310 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:45,560 it will tell what it will give a score of out of 100 how healthy it is and 311 00:24:45,869 --> 00:24:50,890 it's quite surprising. I've been using it and now there's a lot of foods which is even. 312 00:24:51,469 --> 00:24:54,819 Kind of marketing it on the packet as like some healthy thing. 313 00:24:54,829 --> 00:25:00,270 It's got mango in it, it's got this, whatever, but then it's got a really low score on that because of all the other stuff they 314 00:25:00,270 --> 00:25:04,420 put in all the like stuff that keeps it together gives it a good mouth feel, 315 00:25:05,030 --> 00:25:08,160 allows it to stay be transported and kept on shelves, etc. 316 00:25:08,449 --> 00:25:11,780 It's very insidious, yeah, there's most, 317 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:15,699 most things on that now have a health claim on them, and, 318 00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:23,180 yeah, it's anyway. I think at some point the regulators have to yeah, 319 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:30,329 they have to find some courage to actually draw some lines in the sand about how things are marketed to consumers. 320 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,859 Yeah this is this is a wormhole though, Darius. 321 00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:37,180 I mean, you know, emulsifies as a as a sort of starter, 322 00:25:37,339 --> 00:25:41,390 you know, half of the. Research written about the most commonplace 323 00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:46,250 emulsifiers emulsifiers have been sponsored by Big Food nag 324 00:25:46,540 --> 00:25:49,729 to say that, you know, there is no conclusive evidence that emulsifiers 325 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:53,810 can essentially clean the mucus lining of your gut, 326 00:25:54,380 --> 00:25:59,689 for instance, which is obviously a vital part of the gut to be able to function properly. 327 00:26:00,699 --> 00:26:04,189 I mean, we probably don't want to get political, and, and I, and I won't, 328 00:26:04,739 --> 00:26:08,489 but, but in the US at the moment it is interesting to see how. 329 00:26:09,420 --> 00:26:12,709 There are teams of people beginning to look at some of the 330 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:16,579 ingredients that go that are allowed in the US that aren't often allowed in Europe. 331 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:20,930 often colorings, for instance, there's yellow 5. -- Is -- it more that way? 332 00:26:21,479 --> 00:26:25,040 -- There's more loud there or there's -- more so the bad stuff is more prevalent, 333 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:28,839 at least on the ingredient front when it comes to things like colourants in America. 334 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,469 If you compare the colour of some Kellogg's cereal in the US to here, 335 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,270 here they'll be using some fruit derived colouring, whereas in America it might be purely chemical. 336 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,930 So you'll be actually able to see that that the blue is very, very blue out there and the red is very, 337 00:26:41,939 --> 00:26:45,400 very red. But what's interesting is, is now the, 338 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,829 the, the lid is being blown on what long term exposure to those chemicals looks like 339 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:57,189 and whether they're neuro inhibitors or uh in any way 340 00:26:57,689 --> 00:27:04,390 inhibiting the growth of brain, -- spinal physiological function -- or just downright cancerous. 341 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,739 Yeah, yeah. Cancer and hormone 342 00:27:07,890 --> 00:27:12,199

disruption. I mean, I've been shocked at uh using that app to see. 343 00:27:12,719 --> 00:27:15,969 How many things like also toiletries as well, which, 344 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,109 you know, can also be advertised as, 345 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,510 you know, oh this has got mint or, you know, coconut, 346 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,270 but then you look at what else it has in it. It focuses on one ingredient, 347 00:27:26,380 --> 00:27:29,489 but yeah, and and you know, as we, you know, 348 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,949 we're in a sense we're ideologues in the sense that we're passionate about, 349 00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:36,790 you know, a regenerative food system future, whatever that looks like, 350 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,959 but we should all approach things with soberly. 351 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,640 so the, you know, the road to hell is paved with 352 00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:50,170 good intentions. 11 piece of news that came out fairly well, 353 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,349 it's been going around for a long time, but it seems to be gaining traction on social media is that these 354 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,819 paper straws that we've been using. As a replacement for plastic straws in an effort to reduce plastic consumption, 355 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,979 they're all lined with PFAS which is a particularly volatile and insidious 356 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,689 microplastic that ends up in our bodies and and is endocrine disrupting, 357 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:16,520 destroys testosterone in men, for example, inhibits the production. 358 00:28:16,609 --> 00:28:19,619 Is that the same as what they have in the Starbucks cups? 359 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:25,599 It's the same lining you get in in coffee cups. It's also the same thing that you you feel on, 360 00:28:25,630 --> 00:28:29,180 on, Printed receipts. -- Oh -- right, 361 00:28:29,260 --> 00:28:33,020 yeah, I've heard that, so printed receipts just by handling them. 362 00:28:33,219 --> 00:28:37,329 Yeah, don't, don't get them. -- Don't touch -- them. It seems like everything kills you. 363 00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:43,339 It does. I, I was just like, I saw some Instagram video yesterday and it was saying, 364 00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:48,170 don't use these, don't use these plastic spatulas for your, 365 00:28:48,459 --> 00:28:51,479 uh, cooking. Don't use this pan. Don't, I'm like, don't use, 366 00:28:51,619 --> 00:28:55,609 I'm, I have to change my whole kitchen now because everything seems to, 367 00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:59,300 you know. But to to to to extend the argument 368 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:04,479 in in this rapidly changing food system that we're now sort of encountering, 369 00:29:04,489 --> 00:29:08,180 whereas as Chris has pointed out, we're on the cusp of the consumer 370 00:29:09,349 --> 00:29:13,859 being fundamentally aware that the vast majority of the things that they eat and are exposed to, 371 00:29:14,589 --> 00:29:17,790

are both addicting and are destroying their health over the 372 00:29:17,790 --> 00:29:23,640 long term and that of their families and children. And that farmers are beginning to adapt, 373 00:29:23,810 --> 00:29:31,219 you know. In order to survive, they're beginning to take steps to reduce their dependence on synthetics 374 00:29:31,589 --> 00:29:34,949 and adopt some of these regenerative practises. Out of necessity, 375 00:29:35,109 --> 00:29:38,979 farmers in the UK are adopting cover cropping and reducing tillage 376 00:29:39,349 --> 00:29:46,250 out of necessity so that they can actually get out into their fields in springtime and actually plant crops because it's become so difficult. 377 00:29:46,670 --> 00:29:50,310 With those things going on. The industry will, 378 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,989 uh, the existing industry will do what it can to survive 379 00:29:54,300 --> 00:30:01,089 and so the large, agricultural input companies are looking for the next glyphosate. 380 00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:05,750 They're looking for the next green fertiliser, and 381 00:30:05,959 --> 00:30:10,160 you know, I just throw that out there because there's a lot to play for here that, 382 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,939 and there's also an awful lot still to lose. and what we're trying to 383 00:30:16,219 --> 00:30:20,569 do at Pelican Ag is make smart, intelligent bets on companies that 384 00:30:20,739 --> 00:30:23,849 are, are providing a viable pathway forward 385 00:30:24,180 --> 00:30:27,530 rather than just another symptom fighting strategy, 386 00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:32,640 which maintains the status quo. I mean, you mentioned that 387 00:30:32,969 --> 00:30:37,359 when people move to these practises, they end up having higher yields, 388 00:30:38,569 --> 00:30:43,250 they obviously are healthier themselves, they're producing more nutritious food. 389 00:30:44,109 --> 00:30:48,060 is that not common known amongst the farmers, and if it is, 390 00:30:48,189 --> 00:30:52,270 then why isn't everyone doing it? I guess it's you, 391 00:30:52,750 --> 00:30:55,829 it's not commonly known, you know, in a sense it's that old, 392 00:30:55,910 --> 00:31:00,300 I don't know who came up with this phrase, but the future is already here, it's just not well distributed, 393 00:31:01,510 --> 00:31:05,219 so at every level, regenerative agriculture suffers from 394 00:31:05,349 --> 00:31:08,780 a data problem, uh, a believability problem, 395 00:31:10,060 --> 00:31:15,530 You know, from the, the, the common trope that one would hear from a farmer at an agricultural conference is, 396 00:31:15,849 --> 00:31:20,150 oh, I, I saw it work for for Bill, but it won't work for me on my land. 397 00:31:22,250 --> 00:31:27,459 and those perceptions are going to remain until a critical mass has been developed, 398 00:31:28,489 --> 00:31:31,930 and if you take the Pareto principle or sort of marketing gurus, 399 00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:35,369 that's probably somewhere around the 13, 15% mark now. 400 00:31:38,229 --> 00:31:43,510 Probably, I don't know, it's it depends. I honestly don't know where we are. 401 00:31:43,550 --> 00:31:49,420 We get, we read very sort of different sorts of points of reference on this data, 402 00:31:49,550 --> 00:31:53,900 but you know one aspect of regenerative farming in the US which is beginning to 403 00:31:54,150 --> 00:31:57,260 gain traction is, is more rotational forms of grazing 404 00:31:57,829 --> 00:32:02,630 and so introducing longer rest periods into grazing platforms. 405 00:32:03,829 --> 00:32:06,900 I read one agronomist who's quite famous in our sector 406 00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:12,219 thinks that about 5% of small family farms in the US are now managed 407 00:32:12,670 --> 00:32:16,500 in that fashion. I don't know whether to believe that or where that data emanates from. 408 00:32:17,229 --> 00:32:20,449 we do know that organic is probably less than 2%. 409 00:32:20,750 --> 00:32:25,219 Yeah, I think it's, and then just in terms of giving the the maths on 410 00:32:25,550 --> 00:32:30,300 the latest carbon carbon cowboy study, which was 1000 farms 411 00:32:30,709 --> 00:32:35,660 over. Most states in the US. I think it was smaller than 1000, 412 00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:42,810 but it was the longest study, uh, it was a 10 year study. -- And it was -- looking at the amount of carbon sequestered if 413 00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:46,699 effective a grazing is put into place, 414 00:32:46,739 --> 00:32:53,130 which is adaptive multi-pasure grazing, which means that you're trying to mimic the predator prey relationship of 415 00:32:53,380 --> 00:32:58,819 livestock, such that they intensively graze an area for a very short period of time, 416 00:32:58,869 --> 00:33:02,300 stamp and pee and shit, and then move on. 417 00:33:03,739 --> 00:33:06,959 I often for a year, and it allows, 418 00:33:07,859 --> 00:33:11,890 I suppose an optimum amount of grass to be eaten to the right level whilst 419 00:33:13,579 --> 00:33:17,989 encouraging a root surge, And the, 420 00:33:18,189 --> 00:33:21,640 the figures are 12 tonnes of carbon per hectare. 421 00:33:23,390 --> 00:33:27,349 Just to give some context to people that don't really know all this stuff, 422 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,469 what you're speaking about is an integration, is that just for meat production or is that like? 423 00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:38,770 integrating cattle into food crop production, 424 00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:42,000 so both in the same system because 425 00:33:42,290 --> 00:33:47,020 from what I understand at the moment it's completely separate. And the majority of farms, 426 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:51,020 from what I've understood, are still factory farms, so it's very much 427 00:33:51,579 --> 00:33:56,410 cows just separated on massive lots that are just being fed 428 00:33:57,140 --> 00:34:01,770 soya, corn, things like that, and there's no grazing at

all even. 429 00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:05,390 So what you're saying is like not only grazing, which is. 430 00:34:06,050 --> 00:34:10,050 I assume a small percentage and now you're saying inside those grazing they should rotate. 431 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:16,197 Is that correct, or there's a, there's a lot of. There's a lot of generalities and it's important 432 00:34:16,197 --> 00:34:19,678 to have generalities so that we all sort of know roughly what we're talking about. 433 00:34:20,319 --> 00:34:24,878 But there's also a lot of there's a lot of nuance that's left out of the conversation. 434 00:34:25,398 --> 00:34:29,509 So if one takes the the worst, most industrially produced beef that's, 435 00:34:29,518 --> 00:34:34,398 let's say going into the McDonald's supply chain via these controlled animal feedlots in the Midwest 436 00:34:34,398 --> 00:34:38,197 that you're talking about run by Cargill, etc. Even that meat. 437 00:34:38,748 --> 00:34:44,239 And the animals would have spent 50 to 60% of their lives on small family farms, 438 00:34:44,289 --> 00:34:50,279 and some of those small family farms would have raised those animals with good husbandry and good management of the land, 439 00:34:50,398 --> 00:34:53,549 others perhaps not so. What and then they sell them into the, 440 00:34:54,358 --> 00:35:01,279 -- exactly they're of -- a certain age once they get to a certain weight and age, those heifers will go to the feedlot to be fattened up on that corn and soy. 441 00:35:02,479 --> 00:35:05,600 which is that surplus that's surplus of crops that's been grown within 442 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,149 the food supply chain often underwritten by both subsidies and crop insurance. 443 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,709 So we've sort of created this monster for ourselves, 444 00:35:16,830 --> 00:35:20,610 and you know we're trapped into some of these industrialised systems 445 00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:24,239 in the, in the case of the, uh, that meat production system, 446 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,239 those highly intensive systems, they satisfy urban. 447 00:35:29,540 --> 00:35:34,270 Urban economics, I, the reason that those systems exist is 448 00:35:34,270 --> 00:35:37,500 because they need to slaughter animals at speed 449 00:35:37,870 --> 00:35:42,729 with economies of scale in order to deliver affordable meat to millions of people in 450 00:35:42,830 --> 00:35:47,129 in city centres. So you can't really divorce as soon as you start 451 00:35:47,129 --> 00:35:50,610 to talk about these things at a systems level, you can't really divorce the nature of 452 00:35:50,889 --> 00:35:54,100 food consumption and how cities aggregate food from rural areas 453 00:35:54,469 --> 00:35:59,320 from the controlled animal feedlots, from the grains and the soy that are used to fatten them up, 454 00:35:59,409 --> 00:36:06,330 which clearly makes them ill and is probably not good for us. but then you also can't separate the fact that it's

actually a lot of 455 00:36:06,330 --> 00:36:09,719 rural farmers that are at the base of that supply chain as well. 456 00:36:10,260 --> 00:36:13,500 -- So -- the demand is so high that 457 00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:19,360 It's necessary to maintain that system because if you move to 458 00:36:19,570 --> 00:36:23,320 a regenerative way of doing it, -- it wouldn't create enough volume -- of. 459 00:36:23,770 --> 00:36:27,159 Yeah, so let's say so in in it's partly it's, 460 00:36:27,169 --> 00:36:32,760 there's a geographical dimension to it. So in contrast to the American livestock sector, 461 00:36:33,050 --> 00:36:39,219 uh the UK one is in a far better state from from a sustainable regenerative perspective. 462 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:44,909 we don't have as many controlled animal feedlots. We do in our, in our pig and our chicken 463 00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:49,310 and poultry and egg laying, uh, systems, they are definitely, 464 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:54,320 not sustainable and degenerative, right? That's the thing that, 465 00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:58,040 you know, I think one huge thing I think of always is. 466 00:36:58,610 --> 00:37:05,110 The image which people have of how a farm is and the reality is so different as well, 467 00:37:05,889 --> 00:37:10,129 when they even the imagery they probably use on the packaging as well like for 468 00:37:10,129 --> 00:37:13,649 whether it's dairy and they have like a happy cow on there or something, 469 00:37:13,689 --> 00:37:17,419 whereas the reality is quite different and some people might think, 470 00:37:17,429 --> 00:37:21,000 oh, that's just in the most intense or extreme cases, 471 00:37:21,010 --> 00:37:26,320 but from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, that is the majority that's like over 80% of, 472 00:37:26,449 --> 00:37:31,040 of what I least in. in the case of pigs and chickens. 473 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,560 Yeah, so, I mean, the, the, the typical livestock farm, 474 00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:40,750 and I'm referring to cattle and sheep, predominantly, the typical livestock farm in the UK 475 00:37:41,370 --> 00:37:45,010 is probably less than 100 head of, let's say it's, it's a beef herd, 476 00:37:45,050 --> 00:37:49,129 it's probably less than 100, it's probably around 40 or 50 or maybe even less than that, 477 00:37:50,250 --> 00:37:54,540 and you know, Most of that meat is being, 478 00:37:55,060 --> 00:38:01,290 there's not that many abattoirs left, so those have become centralised and the small family abattoirs have closed down. 479 00:38:01,580 --> 00:38:06,010 And if they're in a contract with a supermarket then. that 480 00:38:06,139 --> 00:38:09,550 those animals get mixed with lots of other animals and then they end up on the shelf. 481 00:38:10,860 --> 00:38:14,929 and the consumer doesn't really know at this point other than organic certification, 482 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,729 there's very little relationship between how that food was

grown, 483 00:38:19,699 --> 00:38:23,040 and it's husbandry and, and, and the consumer's awareness of that. 484 00:38:23,620 --> 00:38:26,729 In the most in the case of let's say 485 00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:31,699 our poultry production systems in the UK, those are highly intensive. 486 00:38:31,820 --> 00:38:35,479 I, we know that Uh, those are all . 487 00:38:36,219 --> 00:38:41,350 The animals are in confinement and then the food is brought to them and the food can come from around the world 488 00:38:42,149 --> 00:38:46,129 uh and that soy can potentially be coming from very badly managed 489 00:38:46,439 --> 00:38:50,909 or even land that's deforested in in Brazil, although there are regulations that have tried to 490 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,659 curb that. I think that the Brazilian government is actually unravelling 491 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,600 uh a moratorium on deforestation soil at the 492 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,159 moment which is gonna cause quite a lot of controversy. anyway, 493 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,360 I digress. There's so many different sort of rabbit holes that you can go down into. 494 00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:10,439 Well, just, just because I think we should come back. It is an interesting one looking at the commodity supply chain, 495 00:39:10,479 --> 00:39:18,209 but , just if we go back to farm washing, if you think that 80% and and the figures sort of 10% 496 00:39:18,439 --> 00:39:22,889 1 way or the other, it might be more, of the UK buys 497 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,360 the entirety of their food from five major supermarkets. 498 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,639 And these, those supermarkets are being done at the moment for farm washing. 499 00:39:31,729 --> 00:39:35,729 So if you buy a punnet of blueberries, it comes from a Tesco own brand blueberries, 500 00:39:35,739 --> 00:39:39,350 it comes from, Wave Hill Farms or something, 501 00:39:40,850 --> 00:39:48,040 forgetting what the actual name is. That's being deemed as misleading at the moment and they're having to shift that. 502 00:39:49,050 --> 00:39:55,159 Where are they coming from really? They're coming from industrialised farms in Chile, 503 00:39:55,350 --> 00:39:58,590 Portugal, Spain, South Africa. -- So -- they're being imported, 504 00:39:58,629 --> 00:40:02,199 but they're being -- shown as if they're some -- UK. 505 00:40:02,350 --> 00:40:05,649 Well, whether it's UK or not, but definitely they're being the picture of a 506 00:40:05,649 --> 00:40:09,010 sort of bucolic British farm is what's being summoned 507 00:40:09,580 --> 00:40:12,580 and and that's across most fresh produce. You know, 508 00:40:12,590 --> 00:40:17,159 if you think that there's very limited fresh produce in a supermarket, it's really the outside section. 509 00:40:17,790 --> 00:40:21,639 And so we think how, you know, how, how. How can we begin to 510 00:40:21,939 --> 00:40:26,280 shift the British food system, uh, or indeed a global food system, 511 00:40:26,770 --> 00:40:31,169 you think, you know, at the moment, Professor Tim Lang is the man to speak to you 512 00:40:31,169 --> 00:40:36,399 about food systems and then and Professor Tim Benton, At the moment, 513 00:40:36,810 --> 00:40:41,239 56% of UK. Diet is ultra processed. 514 00:40:41,399 --> 00:40:44,629 Obviously that's an average. So if you were to go to some of the food deserts like 515 00:40:44,909 --> 00:40:48,919 Blackburn, Lancashire, for instance, where it's pretty difficult to find 516 00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:55,959 a a a whole food meal affordably, much easier to buy some fried chicken and and and chips. 517 00:40:56,399 --> 00:41:00,419 How can you begin to. A create access, 518 00:41:00,709 --> 00:41:09,870 B shift a food culture. C gets perhaps a mum in charge of a single mum in charge of 5 kids 519 00:41:10,149 --> 00:41:13,949 who've got very accustomed to eating in a particular way to suddenly eat. 520 00:41:14,354 --> 00:41:17,655 some peas and carrots, is, 521 00:41:17,675 --> 00:41:23,625 is an enormous complex hurdle. people like Henry Dimbleby with the National Food strategy 522 00:41:23,955 --> 00:41:27,745 and his most recent bill that's about to be published, which was delayed because of the 523 00:41:27,995 --> 00:41:32,385 farmer protests, lays out pretty good processes to get there. 524 00:41:32,915 --> 00:41:37,225 Ultimately there will have to be some kind of legislation, taxation in the same way as 525 00:41:37,554 --> 00:41:41,360 the smoking ban. Which is highly contentious because 526 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:47,510 it's really penalising low income people in a far more aggressive way than 527 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,989 others -- and there's just -- so affordable, 528 00:41:51,290 --> 00:41:54,389 the highly processed frozen food stuff. 529 00:41:54,750 --> 00:42:00,899 And it tastes so good, you know, like we've had teams of the best flavour scientists 530 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,649 working on how to formulate these incredible salt, 531 00:42:04,739 --> 00:42:08,340 fat, sugar combinations. Plus mouth feel, 532 00:42:08,459 --> 00:42:12,540 -- all -- that stuff. Yes, even like the sound of the Pringle pot or the Coca-Cola thing, 533 00:42:12,580 --> 00:42:15,580 it's, it's sonic advertising and they've been doing this, you know, 534 00:42:15,659 --> 00:42:18,739 snap, crackle and pop since, since the 60s, you know, 535 00:42:18,939 --> 00:42:23,030 everyone used to hold a bowl next to that thing. And, and so I know you want to 536 00:42:23,399 --> 00:42:27,780 quite rightly jump in. But the , it's far more insidious 537 00:42:28,169 --> 00:42:32,159 than than one can really even believe, not just in terms of 538 00:42:32,770 --> 00:42:37,969 taste, where the best scientists were involved, and some of those now Simon and I speak to, 539 00:42:38,570 --> 00:42:42,679 are being now being employed by companies that are beginning to look at 540 00:42:43,169 -->

00:42:47,919 nutritional profiling, something like the wild fund. And these scientists who've been working, 541 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,270 I suppose, to hide, to to create a sense of nutrition, 542 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,110 but knowing that what they're promoting is nutritionally void 543 00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:00,629 are now going to companies where they have been using sensible methods and are now able to start working, 544 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,830 you know, flavours are obviously a very good predicator for nutrient density. 545 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,909 So I mean flavonoids and and turpins are things uh aspects of food that are good for us, 546 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,250 often also denote lots of flavour. But I suppose . 547 00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:18,409 Yeah, I'm, I've lost my train of thought. I was just gonna add, 548 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:24,790 add to your point about pervasiveness, but extend it from ultra processed foods to whole foods in 549 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,909 the industrial sort of supermarket set up. So there's a reason that all of the bacon looks exactly the same, 550 00:43:30,959 --> 00:43:36,040 and there's a reason that all the chickens look exactly the same. They're pretty much all the same weight when they're slaughtered. 551 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:40,260 That's so that they can fit into machines that can process that at line speed. 552 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,649 So the industrial bacon slicer is calibrated to a certain size. 553 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:50,040 That then produces a downstream consequence which is that all of the pigs have to look the same, 554 00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:57,389 have to be the same breed, and they have to be managed in the same way, and that rewards the industrial production mechanistic system. 555 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,989 So if you're raising a chicken in a controlled environment, which is what a shed is, 556 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,909 you, you, you provide it with a calorie regime 557 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,820 and a protein, fat, carbohydrate regime that gets it to a certain weight 558 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,830 at a certain day. To be slaughtered in order to meet the demands of us 559 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,969 buying those things from the supermarket. -- standardised -- everything's standardised. 560 00:44:21,179 --> 00:44:25,510 The the tomatoes that are grown in those Dutch warehouses, 561 00:44:26,379 --> 00:44:32,199 I mean, I hope I'm not overstepping the bounds, but I do understand still that it's quite common practise to spray 562 00:44:32,419 --> 00:44:36,489 a light fungicide on many of these vegetables post harvest 563 00:44:37,139 --> 00:44:41,129 in order that there can be some guarantee that when that produce hits the shelf, 564 00:44:41,340 --> 00:44:45,169 it still looks fresh and is of a certain quality and then of course then we're ingesting it. 565 00:44:45,580 --> 00:44:51,260 So. You know, the system is

is entirely pervasive. 566 00:44:52,189 --> 00:44:56,179 If you're outside of that system and you're trying to carve a different path, 567 00:44:56,399 --> 00:45:00,020 so let's say you're a farmer trying to grow regeneratively and sell direct, 568 00:45:00,389 --> 00:45:04,699 well, you can do that because if you can find a market for your delicious produce, 569 00:45:04,949 --> 00:45:10,219 then your, you know, your cattle don't have to hit a certain weight by a certain date for you to have a functional business. 570 00:45:10,899 --> 00:45:16,929 But as soon as you're playing into, you know, large scale buyers or you're trying to sell into the commodity market, 571 00:45:18,060 --> 00:45:24,209 you're certainly not gonna be able to claim this premium on your exceptional produce which you've grown regeneratively. 572 00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:27,820 But in a sense. The fact that these 573 00:45:27,989 --> 00:45:31,219 uh hurdles and these obstacles look so insurmountable 574 00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:36,379 is not stopping the innovation that Chris and I are looking at and that we're backing. 575 00:45:37,550 --> 00:45:40,709 and you know, although, you know, everything is very, 576 00:45:40,750 --> 00:45:44,550 very challenging, there are still massive opportunities to create impact. 577 00:45:44,709 --> 00:45:50,770 -- So -- you're still optimistic. That These changes could have in time because I, 578 00:45:50,810 --> 00:45:55,449 I, I've heard, a fact I think as the United Nations said we we only 579 00:45:55,449 --> 00:45:59,939 have about 60 harvests left or there's some some version of that quote 580 00:46:00,850 --> 00:46:06,929 where how many harvests do we have left if we continue with current practises no one no one knows, 581 00:46:06,969 --> 00:46:10,129 but yeah, it's uh obviously a one figure trying to. 582 00:46:11,429 --> 00:46:17,540 Encapsulate the whole world food production, but the point is that if we carry on as we are, 583 00:46:17,709 --> 00:46:22,300 soil will be depleted to the point that we won't be able to have food, 584 00:46:22,550 --> 00:46:26,139 and then there could be serious food crises even, and then, 585 00:46:26,429 --> 00:46:31,419 then we'll see some serious wars, etc. displacement of peoples, 586 00:46:31,709 --> 00:46:37,310 all that stuff coming in. -- So I -- mean, you know, we're only over 7 meals away from out and out revolution. 587 00:46:37,610 --> 00:46:41,689 And if you, if you look at the global food supply chain, and if you look at the kind of global map, 588 00:46:41,979 --> 00:46:46,689 there are 5 main points around the world where 90% of the world's commodity food travels through 589 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,969 and a lot of those areas are affected by. Issue, 590 00:46:51,090 --> 00:46:55,040 whether it's the Panama Canal shutting because it's the water's got too shallow, 591 00:46:55,209 --> 00:47:00,050 whether it's the issues around the Middle East stopping the sewers, whether it's any of the Black Sea, 592 00:47:00,129 --> 00:47:04,399 whether it's the Singaporean Straits. So from a global supply chain, 593 00:47:04,570 --> 00:47:10,320 it's this just in time. N is, is very brittle and it's, 594 00:47:10,330 --> 00:47:14,189 that's going to be recognised. So the kind of onshoring of supply chains 595 00:47:14,189 --> 00:47:17,679 is something that's going to be exciting and, and Simon and I, you know, it's, 596 00:47:17,850 --> 00:47:21,520 it's one of the many tailwinds that plays into the reason that we're doing this. 597 00:47:22,050 --> 00:47:25,280 But I think in terms of the, 598 00:47:25,290 --> 00:47:29,280 the, the legs of the regenerative food movement, 599 00:47:29,409 --> 00:47:34,189 and when we say regenerative food, we mean transitioning the entire farm to flush 600 00:47:34,449 --> 00:47:39,030 supply chain. To be able to allow for maximum soil building 601 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,760 and nutritious whole food to the end consumer. 602 00:47:43,530 --> 00:47:46,540 But done with a view that we are 603 00:47:46,850 --> 00:47:51,780 building uh soil to create small and large water cycles, 604 00:47:52,070 --> 00:47:55,949 we are creating habitat and biodiversity and at the same time producing healthy food. 605 00:47:56,860 --> 00:48:01,929 Now, that's our, our top line. The reality of what we're actually seeing is 606 00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:08,250 there is a deluge of founder that has come in to fill these new scientific 607 00:48:09,100 --> 00:48:12,530 understanding points. So whether that's on farm and our understanding of 608 00:48:12,659 --> 00:48:17,659 how soil functions or the data that needs to flow from farm. 609 00:48:18,270 --> 00:48:24,159 To, uh, either the consumer or to the founder to be able to then monitor and improve, 610 00:48:24,489 --> 00:48:27,800 or whether it's understanding around supply chains and how to make those 611 00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:31,689 far more efficient, often a supply chain has been referred to as 612 00:48:31,689 --> 00:48:34,919 a missing middle and not necessarily tampered with for, for, 613 00:48:35,010 --> 00:48:39,919 for decades. The wheat supply chain in America or the UK would be a good example that World Farm are looking at, 614 00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:43,669 uh, or whether it's, uh, 615 00:48:43,729 --> 00:48:46,810 on the consumer end in terms of understanding what health actually looks like. 616 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,070 which is a fairly blunt instrument at the moment and it's getting more and more sophisticated. 617 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,729 An example might be, you know, no one could have predicted how quickly the. 618 00:48:57,530 --> 00:49:01,139 Adoption of alternative milks would have come into play. 619 00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:07,639 and as we're now beginning to see some of the share prices weren't, don't necessarily reflect 620 00:49:07,969 --> 00:49:11,919 the health issues. So on the one

hand, they may have, 621 00:49:12,209 --> 00:49:16,250 they may be able to claim a lower carbon footprint, 622 00:49:17,209 --> 00:49:22,570 which I think is probably debatable versus uh uh livestock that've been reared. 623 00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:28,290 regeneratively, but certainly versus industrialised dairy is one of their big 624 00:49:28,290 --> 00:49:32,459 selling points that they have less of a carbon footprint. But what they haven't 625 00:49:33,090 --> 00:49:36,600 been necessarily necessarily discussing as much as they should, 626 00:49:36,649 --> 00:49:39,959 is the glycaemic 627 00:49:40,250 --> 00:49:43,479 load and index of an oat milk product 628 00:49:44,129 --> 00:49:48,290 which produces, which essentially produces a carbohydrate that turns into 629 00:49:48,290 --> 00:49:51,610 a sugar that enters your bloodstream much quicker often than. 630 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:57,510 Raw cane sugar and the same as insulin response as Coca-Cola apparently. 631 00:49:57,959 --> 00:50:01,959 Really, -- what from like say oat oat milk -- without naming the brands, 632 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,439 but yeah, yeah, -- I mean no I think no I I I you know I I think you're right and -- because they have 633 00:50:06,439 --> 00:50:12,949 like also oils and things in it like that that -- aren't supposed to see oil industrial -- seed oils that yeah, 634 00:50:13,159 --> 00:50:16,510 which are back to go back to Chris's point around nutritional profiling. 635 00:50:17,100 --> 00:50:22,370 There is a lot of epidemiological research that fats that are high in omega 6 636 00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:26,899 relative to omega 3 trigger an inflammatory response and are linked to 637 00:50:26,899 --> 00:50:30,040 chronic many chronic long term health conditions. 638 00:50:30,419 --> 00:50:35,209 If you walk down the middle of the supermarket and you know, I I'm not just bashing at the alternative milks, 639 00:50:35,219 --> 00:50:38,699 but most things that we consume, the biscuits, 640 00:50:38,860 --> 00:50:42,909 the crisps, the cereals, the all of the ultra processed foods. 641 00:50:43,310 --> 00:50:47,750 They tend to to be those the three devils of the three horsemen of the apocalypse, 642 00:50:47,870 --> 00:50:52,379 seed oils, you know, flowers, ultra refined flowers, 643 00:50:52,590 --> 00:50:56,379 and ultra refined sugars. Right? Yeah, I mean that's why I've, 644 00:50:56,590 --> 00:51:00,010 because I'm vegan and I don't have any dairy, 645 00:51:00,110 --> 00:51:03,260 so I was quite happy to see all these 646 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,070 nut milks and etc. coming out, but then also realised that. 647 00:51:08,370 --> 00:51:13,689 They're not the healthiest, so now I just have a little nut milk machine at home that 648 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:18,000 kind of, you know, make it fresh normally just you can just put in different 649 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,360 types of nuts and I've tried all different types actually like even 650 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,360 things like pistachio, nut milk, alternative ones that aren't like, 651 00:51:25,409 --> 00:51:28,550 you know, mainstream pecan nuts and they all have different flavours and they all 652 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:35,659 you know, act as milk and still You can add them to coffee or whatever cereals, 653 00:51:35,689 --> 00:51:40,040 etc. So that could be, I mean maybe that's a solution 654 00:51:41,250 --> 00:51:45,959 instead of because obviously companies like O must add those 655 00:51:46,209 --> 00:51:51,159 extras. For to allow it to be transported, 656 00:51:51,169 --> 00:51:55,050 etc. and stored, is that why? -- or -- mouth and 657 00:51:55,050 --> 00:51:58,399 mouth feel the creaminess, etc. -- the -- creaminess comes from the fat. 658 00:51:58,810 --> 00:52:02,050 Right, that's the only other issue with them is if it's oat milk, 659 00:52:02,169 --> 00:52:10,530 particularly, oats are often often spray your oat crop with glyphosate at the very end of its. 660 00:52:11,709 --> 00:52:17,050 life before harvest to dry it out, and that's when it's obviously it's most porous and it 661 00:52:17,350 --> 00:52:21,629 retains a higher percentage of glyphosate, let's say, than, some other crops. 662 00:52:21,709 --> 00:52:25,419 So there's a higher percentage of glyphosate that then ends up in the finished product, 663 00:52:25,699 --> 00:52:28,909 and glyphosate is, you know, a neuro inhibitor and essentially an anti 664 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,229 bacterial. If that's known, why is it allowed? 665 00:52:34,030 --> 00:52:42,320 I think -- I think -- how yeah, how are we how are companies allowed to put things in food and sell them to us that 666 00:52:42,649 --> 00:52:47,199 I think is proven do these kind of things to us like which 667 00:52:47,909 --> 00:52:51,189 -- you know has all the knock on effects -- and I mean this may be a bit harsh, 668 00:52:51,250 --> 00:52:55,889 but I think that. You know, going back to good intentions, 669 00:52:56,179 --> 00:52:59,540 you know, over the last 15 or 20 years, there's been a rising 670 00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:04,889 awareness amongst consumers around the ethicality or the lack of ethicality 671 00:53:05,129 --> 00:53:08,739 of a whole range of consumer products, and food has been at the centre of that. 672 00:53:09,419 --> 00:53:14,389 Uh, and this has allowed, companies to exploit that marketing opportunity 673 00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:18,800 and they've played on our, they've seduced us and they've played on our naivety. 674 00:53:19,159 --> 00:53:22,510 So I would like to encourage all people to be less naive 675 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,439 and just to be more critical and look at the back of the easiest 676 00:53:26,439 --> 00:53:32,360 thing to do is just to look at the back of the packaging. And look at the ingredients and if you can't pronounce the 677 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:39,719 names of those things on the back of

the ingredients label, it's probably not gonna be doing you any good regardless of how well 678 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:44,209 -- the product claims that it's doing something good for you and the -- planet. So they might be fixing one problem, 679 00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,600 but they introduce some other issue. Yes, yes, exactly, 680 00:53:47,709 --> 00:53:50,750 and usually they're ahead of regulation and so they can get away with it. 681 00:53:50,959 --> 00:53:54,080 And it's not necessarily, as you say, done on purpose each time it is people trying to, 682 00:53:54,169 --> 00:53:57,709 you know, maximise profit and and speak to their shareholders. So I, 683 00:53:57,959 --> 00:54:02,100 on the one hand. You know, anyone listening to this, I would highly recommend that they read 684 00:54:02,100 --> 00:54:06,020 Ultraprocessed People by Doctor Chris Van Tulleken, which was a New York Times bestseller, 685 00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:09,500 and is it really lays out very clearly, 686 00:54:09,550 --> 00:54:13,620 I mean, for a sort of intelligent 12 year old to understand, 687 00:54:13,669 --> 00:54:19,550 I think is the phrase that he uses. I'd also read Henry Dimbleby's Ravenous to get an idea as to what a 688 00:54:19,870 --> 00:54:24,020 a series of solutions could look like to bring this entire 689 00:54:24,669 --> 00:54:27,820 food value chain into being more sustainable. 690 00:54:29,050 --> 00:54:32,489 And then I suppose the the the piece that we've touched on a few times here, 691 00:54:32,530 --> 00:54:37,000 which is, which is something that I suppose Simon and I are keen to stress is 692 00:54:39,010 --> 00:54:42,770 We're not just interested in trying to get every farmer to become regenerative. 693 00:54:42,810 --> 00:54:46,919 We know that's gonna take time. What we're more interested in is, 694 00:54:46,949 --> 00:54:50,120 is showing people quite how much is already going on 695 00:54:50,489 --> 00:54:54,399 globally. To push this space. So 696 00:54:54,729 --> 00:54:58,330 on the one hand, it's farmers. You then have 697 00:54:58,590 --> 00:55:01,709 the corporates in the middle, and 698 00:55:02,070 --> 00:55:08,659 those corporates have disproportionate power, whether it's the four big commodity traders or the 4 big meat packers in America 699 00:55:09,110 --> 00:55:12,899 who've been uh zeroed in on quite a lot recently, 700 00:55:13,830 --> 00:55:18,729 or whether it's supermarkets. Simon and I speak to 701 00:55:18,949 --> 00:55:23,520 many of these players and. Some of them 702 00:55:23,810 --> 00:55:28,770 may spend longer justifying the scientific progress they've made in glyphosate, 703 00:55:28,810 --> 00:55:32,810 for instance, which we would obviously inherently disagree with, 704 00:55:33,010 --> 00:55:38,669 but the majority of them are genuinely trying to find ways to intelligently transition their supply chain 705 00:55:38,929 --> 00:55:42,719 at scale in a way that is going to be economic for them, 706 00:55:42,969 --> 00:55:48,790 but ultimately for the whole ecosystem. And, That's exciting for us because 707 00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:53,760 on the one hand, it does mean that Simon and I will invest in companies that work directly with Big Ag and Food, 708 00:55:53,949 --> 00:55:59,050 who have been the culprits of this. Frankly, pollutive system and dangerous system, 709 00:55:59,219 --> 00:56:03,350 but on the flip side, they're the ones that are able to act quickest and at scale. 710 00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,800 So whether that's producing a biological input that 711 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:13,340 would replace a fungicide or a herbicide, or whether it's trying to get them to 712 00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:17,310 understand quite what the negative consequences of their their 713 00:56:17,850 --> 00:56:21,290 uh current farming practises or supply chains are. 714 00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:25,510 And the movement is. 715 00:56:25,899 --> 00:56:29,780 I suppose one litmus test we have in terms of being able to look at 716 00:56:30,219 --> 00:56:33,229 the enormity of the movement is the amount of 717 00:56:33,229 --> 00:56:36,459 companies that are trying to get venture funding, 718 00:56:36,699 --> 00:56:43,270 which implies that they also want to be venture venture profile in terms of the returns that they want to make. 719 00:56:44,090 --> 00:56:47,469 It is enormous and there aren't enough 720 00:56:47,679 --> 00:56:51,469 companies investors that are focused solely on this space 721 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,479 at the moment, at the early stage, we invest globally, 722 00:56:55,520 --> 00:57:02,110 but within the UK as well and. I and one of the reasons for that I think is there's a lot of. 723 00:57:04,060 --> 00:57:07,409 Often very fair perceived wisdom around. 724 00:57:08,439 --> 00:57:13,189 The difficulty of introducing new business to farmers, the idea you have a single growing cycle, 725 00:57:13,399 --> 00:57:17,030 the idea that lots of farms are laden in debt, the idea that 726 00:57:17,159 --> 00:57:22,070 they're multi-generational and have been acting in a certain way. But regardless of all of that, 727 00:57:22,110 --> 00:57:26,060 which is a, a system that will take a long time to change, there is 728 00:57:26,540 --> 00:57:30,889 across this far to Fort value chain, a swathe of technology that's coming online 729 00:57:31,189 --> 00:57:34,389 to make things easier to transition. 730 00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:39,350 Producing methods to do it to show how to lend to farmers, 731 00:57:39,429 --> 00:57:42,620 for instance, in a way that is far more 732 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,979 understanding of the amount of time that they might need to transition to a regenerative system 733 00:57:47,310 --> 00:57:50,360 than a normal agricultural lending bank. Might 734 00:57:51,020 --> 00:57:54,489 be geared up to do at the moment, right? Because there's that valley of death, 735 00:57:54,540

--> 00:58:02,100 as they call it, where as they transition, there's a big capex going in and maybe they reduce their income or their yield, 736 00:58:02,219 --> 00:58:06,780 but longer term it's up, but there's a short term dip from what I understand. 737 00:58:06,899 --> 00:58:11,379 Or or there's the concern, there's a risk, there's a perception and perhaps a real risk 738 00:58:11,379 --> 00:58:16,649 that that that is what's going to happen. I perhaps mildly disagree with you 739 00:58:16,780 --> 00:58:22,169 and say that, and, and, and the only. We'll only know in time whether this is correct or not. 740 00:58:23,750 --> 00:58:27,179 I think that humans, are highly innovative and adapt very, 741 00:58:27,239 --> 00:58:31,080 very quickly when they have their backs up against the wall. And I think 742 00:58:31,370 --> 00:58:36,760 uh the farming community is globally, it definitely has its backs against the wall. 743 00:58:37,290 --> 00:58:41,810 So who's pushing them there. So I would, I will I will over index on the pace 744 00:58:41,810 --> 00:58:45,000 at which regenerative farming practises get adopted globally, 745 00:58:46,370 --> 00:58:50,770 despite all of the doom and gloom, which is largely a sort of a a city person's perception 746 00:58:51,090 --> 00:58:56,040 or an academic's perception of what's actually going on. So if a lot of the practises, 747 00:58:56,050 --> 00:59:00,080 uh, I mean, like you mentioned tech that can help, 748 00:59:00,330 --> 00:59:07,040 I assume a lot of it is just education itself, like just changing the practises and maybe the tech helps them 749 00:59:07,530 --> 00:59:11,040 to monitor things like that. Like what kind of 750 00:59:11,370 --> 00:59:14,979 companies are you looking at that are helping this transition and maybe 751 00:59:15,330 --> 00:59:18,639 go through some examples in, in your current portfolio 752 00:59:19,489 --> 00:59:22,620 or. I mean, so yeah, 753 00:59:23,370 --> 00:59:26,800 let's, let's kind of, let's do this together. 754 00:59:27,489 --> 00:59:30,939 We're very keen to stress that this is a whole value chain piece. 755 00:59:31,010 --> 00:59:34,250 It's not just on fire. So, we've, 756 00:59:34,530 --> 00:59:38,570 we try and from a portfolio constructive construction perspective, 757 00:59:38,649 --> 00:59:45,169 make sure that we're. We're -- completing a fairly holistic inclusion of that entire -- value chain. 758 00:59:45,409 --> 00:59:48,560 So go through the value chain from the farm. So from the farm, 759 00:59:48,810 --> 00:59:53,520 we've invested into a company that lends to farmers that are transitioning. 760 00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:58,250 And that's US based and they're one of the central existing hubs. 761 00:59:58,370 --> 01:00:02,449 They have a nonprofit which is very much a community building, best idea sharing, 762 01:00:02,929 --> 01:00:05,929 uh, piece. They've been around for a substantial amount of 763 01:00:05,929 --> 01:00:09,290 time and they've kicked up an enormous. Stink, I say stink, 764 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,629 a positive stink in the space. they then have a, 765 01:00:12,679 --> 01:00:15,790 a product that lends to these farmers and it's 766 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,399 been incredibly well received and they want to their second fund at the moment. 767 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,389 They're called Mad Capital and they're they're, they've been 768 01:00:24,679 --> 01:00:31,120 a keystone to the entire space in the US. We've also invested into a company that looks at soil measurement 769 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:36,469 that is, and then sells its technology to the laboratories in America. 770 01:00:36,879 --> 01:00:40,479 So it's a B2B play, but it's Raman spectroscopy, 771 01:00:40,649 --> 01:00:44,530 it's the most sophisticated way of measuring what's actually going on in the 772 01:00:44,530 --> 01:00:49,179 soil at a particular moment that we have. in the middle, 773 01:00:49,290 --> 01:00:54,409 -- we've actually not invested -- so just to go back to that one, so that would help obviously farmers as they 774 01:00:54,409 --> 01:00:57,830 change their practises start to be like, oh my soil's getting healthier 775 01:00:58,330 --> 01:01:03,909 now. Yes, we're providing visibility on things that up 776 01:01:03,909 --> 01:01:08,600 until fairly recently have just not been known -- at -- all. Because that seems to be the way to, 777 01:01:08,629 --> 01:01:14,189 to just get as much data as possible and then I guess with the birth of AI 778 01:01:14,750 --> 01:01:18,860 applying that as well could be quite useful. So, 779 01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:24,610 you know, one vision is that. These technologies such as the one that Chris has just referred to, 780 01:01:25,699 --> 01:01:29,449 are able to provide accurate decision support 781 01:01:29,820 --> 01:01:34,649 from how a farmer decides on their yearly crop plan 782 01:01:35,219 --> 01:01:38,449 to all of the all of the 783 01:01:38,699 --> 01:01:44,459 management decisions that they make along that journey. -- And then the -- nutrition and the final 784 01:01:44,459 --> 01:01:50,909 food but to unpack that slightly. soil biology is largely an unknown field, 785 01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,270 as in we, at the moment we have fairly low resolution data 786 01:01:54,719 --> 01:02:01,449 on the health of soils. So technologies that dramatically increase our visibility of soil health 787 01:02:01,659 --> 01:02:05,260 and then use AI trained against those data sets 788 01:02:05,739 --> 01:02:08,850 are are in a very powerful position to provide farmers with 789 01:02:09,340 --> 01:02:12,610 decisions that will reduce some of those things that we were talking about. So 790 01:02:12,939 --> 01:02:17,850 the the risk of a crop failing or the risk of a regenerative management plan 791 01:02:18,229 --> 01:02:23,439 uh creating a, a yield drag. you can minimise those effects. 792

01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:28,270 You can reduce the amount of, uh, the amount of capital that's required to transition 793 01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:35,919 by having intelligent data to to inform and what makes healthy soil is that just to give a few ideas of markers, 794 01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:41,429 is it like the diversity of the microorganisms in it or the things like that or 795 01:02:41,879 --> 01:02:45,469 what? Yes, it's about their diversity. 796 01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:51,389 It's also, it's not just about the biology, it's, it's how the biology is interacting with the chemistry of the soil 797 01:02:52,090 --> 01:02:56,879 and the physical properties of the soil. So in a sense those are the three dimensions. 798 01:02:57,199 --> 01:03:02,239 At the moment, sophisticated industrial farmers have a fairly good understanding 799 01:03:02,239 --> 01:03:05,909 of the physical properties of their soil, though not certainly not perfect, 800 01:03:06,199 --> 01:03:09,439 but they have a good understanding of the the chemistry of their soils. 801 01:03:10,149 --> 01:03:15,899 But biology is the missing part because the chemistry has to flow through biology in order for it to, 802 01:03:16,459 --> 01:03:23,320 -- it's -- amazing they managed to create such a massive industry with such little knowledge of such a key input 803 01:03:23,669 --> 01:03:27,620 into their production, you know, That's, 804 01:03:27,770 --> 01:03:31,360 that's interesting. So, so this soil, so this soil testing 805 01:03:31,689 --> 01:03:34,889 allows you to see a lot more information about the soil. 806 01:03:36,030 --> 01:03:39,739 And, and like what were the other companies who were saying? 807 01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:46,310 I mean, it is just your point. It is amazing how the central ingredient to farming soil has been absolutely, 808 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,899 completely ignored, but very much in favour of, you know, big food and ag. 809 01:03:49,949 --> 01:03:53,169 I mean, if you look at the usage of glyphosate, uh, 810 01:03:53,179 --> 01:03:58,389 over the last 20 years, for instance, it's amazing how exponential it's become as soils have depleted 811 01:03:58,389 --> 01:04:01,550 and they've needed to rely on inputs more and more. So it's, 812 01:04:01,590 --> 01:04:05,949 it's played into the system. And that's why such a big. 813 01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:10,550 So the chemicals inputs are some are to add nutrients to the soil, 814 01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,709 which are supposedly then helping the, 815 01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:18,659 the plants to absorb them, and the other chemical inputs are to kill things they don't want in the soil. 816 01:04:18,770 --> 01:04:22,389 Yeah, fungicides, pesticides, yeah. And do you want to get rid of both 817 01:04:22,719 --> 01:04:27,330 or change them into more helpful ones. 818 01:04:29,580 --> 01:04:34,310 What we've been doing in industrial agriculture is we've been mining the soil. 819 01:04:34,620 -->

01:04:41,489 It's probably the best way of describing it and then in order to to keep getting yields off that land, 820 01:04:41,699 --> 01:04:45,929 we use exogenous, we introduce exogenous synthetic 821 01:04:46,389 --> 01:04:51,139 inputs in order to drive those outcomes and that might be analogous to let's say a bodybuilder. 822 01:04:52,879 --> 01:04:56,030 taking drugs. So it, it, 823 01:04:56,199 --> 01:04:59,840 it creates a short term result, often a, a fairly superficial one, 824 01:04:59,919 --> 01:05:05,830 as in superficial in the sense that it's not as strongly correlated with strength and it's definitely not correlated with long term health. 825 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:11,850 I see. OK. So when you go back to a natural system, 826 01:05:11,870 --> 01:05:15,830 it's a completely different paradigm. your, 827 01:05:15,919 --> 01:05:20,689 you know, your. Soil has a propensity to regenerate. 828 01:05:20,899 --> 01:05:23,939 So if one was to go back, I don't know, 829 01:05:24,139 --> 01:05:29,929 however many millions of years, 400 million years, right, right back to the beginning of terrestrial life on Earth, 830 01:05:31,469 --> 01:05:35,919 algae and, and, uh, uh, formed a relationship with other bacteria 831 01:05:36,300 --> 01:05:41,580 on the edge of, the ocean, and that was a sort of a rudimentary ancient 832 01:05:41,580 --> 01:05:48,239 form of lichen and that was the first plant. And it began to mineralize the bedrock that it was on top of 833 01:05:48,500 --> 01:05:53,100 and when it died, it deposited a tiny amount of soil. Fast forward to now, 834 01:05:53,139 --> 01:05:59,810 the world has built huge quantities of soil and that has detoxified our atmosphere and made it livable 835 01:06:00,060 --> 01:06:04,050 for creatures on planet Earth going back however far. 836 01:06:04,419 --> 01:06:07,830 So, nature has is, 837 01:06:07,860 --> 01:06:14,629 has, has built a. Soil as a as a cornerstone of of of 838 01:06:14,780 --> 01:06:18,429 of how land functions as a as an ecology 839 01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,909 has created habitable life on the planet. 840 01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:27,889 so it is literally the medium through which everything around us has been transmuted, 841 01:06:28,080 --> 01:06:35,229 which is fascinating. I mean. After reading Merlin Sheldrake's books and listening to his, 842 01:06:36,189 --> 01:06:40,550 audio book and watching his movie, that's all about mushrooms and lichens and 843 01:06:40,879 --> 01:06:44,669 their role in the, on the planet. 844 01:06:44,810 --> 01:06:49,969 It's just kind of blown my mind as well to just hear how they are able to 845 01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:53,689 extract nutrients from rock, effectively. And then, 846 01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:58,709 you know, so. You start and they can survive through outer space, 847 01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:02,469 through the vacuum of space, which was fascinating. Then I started to think, well, 848 01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,159 if that, you know, these kind of fungal mycelium 849 01:07:06,629 --> 01:07:11,550 networks, you start to think what implication that might have that 850 01:07:11,919 --> 01:07:15,879 that could have been sent here to create life here because if it can make it 851 01:07:15,879 --> 01:07:20,280 through space and it can land and start to extract minerals, 852 01:07:20,290 --> 01:07:24,229 etc. from rock and then form the basis of, 853 01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:29,510 you know. Kind of symbiotic relationships with uh 854 01:07:29,510 --> 01:07:33,459 bacteria that I believe had photosynthetic 855 01:07:33,669 --> 01:07:39,699 qualities to them and then formed the first basis of plant life with the lichens being 856 01:07:40,189 --> 01:07:44,540 the first roots and then plant roots came a lot after 857 01:07:44,790 --> 01:07:48,540 it was always in . That's right collaboration, 858 01:07:48,550 --> 01:07:52,239 -- which is just kind of fascinating and I think most people don't even know that -- stuff, 859 01:07:52,429 --> 01:08:00,540 organic life uh emanates in the most difficult habitats like the vents at the bottom of uh 860 01:08:01,020 --> 01:08:04,100 of the ocean, extreme temperatures, extreme pressure, 861 01:08:04,110 --> 01:08:08,929 no no oxygen. but the right chemical compounds, 862 01:08:09,500 --> 01:08:13,330 with an energy source can manifest into uh 863 01:08:13,459 --> 01:08:19,569 rudimentary organic life forms. Yeah, and they, and fungus is doing quite a lot now I understand, 864 01:08:19,580 --> 01:08:25,180 even with like, uh, radioactive waste, so they've managed to find fungus that can eat that, 865 01:08:25,419 --> 01:08:29,700 you know, so it seems like there's no limit to what fungus can do in terms of eating. 866 01:08:29,740 --> 01:08:33,049 I think even plastics and stuff, there's there's some fun 867 01:08:33,540 --> 01:08:36,620 fungus being developed. In that area, 868 01:08:37,709 --> 01:08:40,750 And I think there's a lot to explore with fungus, and 869 01:08:41,169 --> 01:08:45,180 we'd love to get some experts in that field on at some point to look into that. 870 01:08:45,330 --> 01:08:50,810 -- And then -- there's that that thinking that at the point when we discovered cooking with fire and our 871 01:08:50,810 --> 01:08:55,529 brains really began to develop and grow disproportionately to other primates, 872 01:08:55,649 --> 01:09:02,200 there's also a theory that we were following particular herds of wildebeest across the Serengeti Plains or wherever we were, 873 01:09:02,529 --> 01:09:06,540 and there was a particular type of psilocybin mushroom that was growing out of the. 874 01:09:07,259 --> 01:09:11,180 Who left behind by these by these particular herds. 875 01:09:11,310 --> 01:09:14,629 I mean I think it's probably pretty unprovable, but it's it's interesting that 876 01:09:14,819 --> 01:09:19,249 there's a theory that that correlated with. This uptake in brain growth.

877 01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:23,627 So what they ate the mushrooms and then they were like, let's play with fire. 878 01:09:24,769 --> 01:09:28,828 And then the two things happening at the same time, you know, being coincidental almost. 879 01:09:29,679 --> 01:09:32,837 So there's a, -- there's some people that -- I can see that. I mean, 880 01:09:32,877 --> 01:09:36,288 you see all the studies on uh psilocybin and, 881 01:09:36,729 --> 01:09:41,599 and the effect on the brain and it's now they've now that they've finally opened up again. 882 01:09:42,769 --> 01:09:45,877 for scientists to use them in studies, you see 883 01:09:46,127 --> 01:09:52,139 some incredible results on people with PTSD and that were kind of resistant to other types of treatments and 884 01:09:52,328 --> 01:09:58,679 how they've got through it and how the use of mushrooms can light up all your brain and create 885 01:09:59,208 --> 01:10:04,599 new neuro pathways and stuff. You can imagine that could have contributed towards 886 01:10:05,088 --> 01:10:08,810 a lot of our development early on, uh. Yeah, 887 01:10:08,890 --> 01:10:13,399 it's, it's hard not to see at every level that uh our evolution is 888 01:10:13,729 --> 01:10:19,439 or our interaction with the fungal kingdom has been heavily influenced by 889 01:10:19,609 --> 01:10:27,850 by their psychedelic properties. I suppose not neither of us being experts on pseudocybin or mushrooms, 890 01:10:28,540 --> 01:10:32,779 but yeah, definitely interested in it. I, I, I think just on this. 891 01:10:34,169 --> 01:10:38,330 On the whole value chain piece. Just being interested in terms of 892 01:10:38,540 --> 01:10:42,240 like how the whole piece has exploded. One of the, 893 01:10:42,540 --> 01:10:48,609 one of the sections that we've been interested in is. If supermarkets have played this disproportionate role 894 01:10:48,609 --> 01:10:54,370 in terms of feeding at least the UK and obviously in America there are very few players feeding the US too. 895 01:10:55,689 --> 01:11:01,970 How genuine are any of their? Targets in terms of their nutritional targets for their 896 01:11:02,620 --> 01:11:06,859 customers over the course of the next year, 234 years up to 2030, 897 01:11:07,259 --> 01:11:12,810 and is there scope for emissions and their supply chain and their biodiversity, 898 01:11:12,979 --> 01:11:16,060 carbon footprint piece. And 899 01:11:16,500 --> 01:11:23,649 I think there's a range of how authentic supermarkets or any of the players in the in the middle perhaps are looking at this, 900 01:11:24,220 --> 01:11:27,890 but the most forward thinking of those players. 901 01:11:28,790 --> 01:11:32,439 Or making. Positive steps forward, 902 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,359 so perhaps usually not enough, but that might be 903 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:42,189 sponsoring a large number of pilot projects in the UK to look at regenerative farming by some of the big European food players, 904 01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,750 which, We are working with some of the 905 01:11:46,430 --> 01:11:50,879 more advanced farmers in the space and are producing 906 01:11:51,270 --> 01:11:55,589 enough cash to actually monitor and produce research that is going to be, 907 01:11:55,910 --> 01:12:01,620 I think, genuinely useful and be part of pushing this wave from early adopter into a larger 908 01:12:02,109 --> 01:12:06,580 amount of the food production industry or or the supermarkets. 909 01:12:07,350 --> 01:12:12,160 Wouldn't the farmers that adopt it start to pull away from the ones that don't, 910 01:12:12,169 --> 01:12:15,990 and then that itself would inspire them to. 911 01:12:16,919 --> 01:12:20,270 It's already starting to sort of yeah happen. Yeah, 912 01:12:20,350 --> 01:12:23,600 a lot of the, a lot of the leading regenerative farmers in the UK 913 01:12:24,109 --> 01:12:27,859 now have hybrid business models, so they maintain a relationship 914 01:12:28,350 --> 01:12:35,979 with their, their historic buyer, whether that was a grain merchant or whether that was selling a particular 915 01:12:36,270 --> 01:12:40,569 high value item into the supermarkets, and then they've opened up 916 01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:44,990 essentially their own uh retail or B2B. 917 01:12:45,740 --> 01:12:50,089 channels and there's endless case studies of of successful farmers, 918 01:12:50,899 --> 01:12:55,250 there are conferences that we go to where thousands of farmers are gathered 919 01:12:55,620 --> 01:13:01,140 and to listen to, you know, the, the absolute detail of how those how those farmers went on 920 01:13:01,140 --> 01:13:06,720 that journey and how they established their brand and how they built their customer base and how they manage their inventory, 921 01:13:06,740 --> 01:13:10,020 etc. etc. So, 922 01:13:10,029 --> 01:13:15,279 -- so that's -- kind of vertical integration, which, like going from the farm direct to the consumer, 923 01:13:15,990 --> 01:13:19,509 was at the moment it's kind of, and buyers in the middle. 924 01:13:19,790 --> 01:13:22,990 Yeah, -- and -- they're ending up with 2% of the finished product. 925 01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,979 -- And -- it coincides with the development of, of what's called local food hubs, 926 01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:32,990 which is at the most basic level is where a group of farmers have loosely formed a sort of a cooperative. 927 01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:37,270 So they're they're pooling their produce in order to satisfy demand, 928 01:13:37,399 --> 01:13:40,560 often in a local area. And this, this is quite easy, 929 01:13:40,770 --> 01:13:46,279 easy. This will develop quite fast, we think in the UK and Europe because of the, 930 01:13:46,290 --> 01:13:49,399 the denses the the density of the population is quite 931 01:13:49,399 --> 01:13:52,859 evenly spread across a relatively small landscape. So. 932 01:13:53,830 --> 01:13:59,379 any given farmer in the UK is probably, you

know, a lot of them are within 10 miles or 15 miles 933 01:13:59,830 --> 01:14:04,990 of a, a, a, a sort of a point of saturation, a customer base that can probably absorb all 934 01:14:04,990 --> 01:14:08,229 everything that they produce on their farm. Right, so how does that work? 935 01:14:08,270 --> 01:14:13,740 Is that like farmers' market type stuff or -- like a food hubs the -- evolution of the farmers' market, 936 01:14:14,629 --> 01:14:17,750 so it, it, it will have elements of, you know, 937 01:14:17,910 --> 01:14:21,589 Deliveroo and, you know, and, uh, and Riverford. 938 01:14:22,089 --> 01:14:25,939 And there'll be lots more, yeah, the consumer will expect, 939 01:14:26,069 --> 01:14:33,790 uh, you know, an online delivery component to it, and they'll expect a degree of convenience that they're not getting at the farmers. 940 01:14:33,990 --> 01:14:37,100 People don't go to farmers' markets to buy their groceries. 941 01:14:37,270 --> 01:14:41,229 They generally speaking go to the farmers' market for an experience 942 01:14:41,229 --> 01:14:44,990 with the family and they buy a few items. so this is more of a, 943 01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:51,669 you know, a serious, probably like a smaller percentage of their total like supermarket or groceries. 944 01:14:51,785 --> 01:14:56,734 Send for the week, -- like a few specialist items whatever but -- there've been there been 945 01:14:56,734 --> 01:15:00,444 waves of tech startups across Europe that have spotted this, 946 01:15:00,455 --> 01:15:05,524 let's say this opportunity to decentralise the food system and challenge the supermarkets 947 01:15:06,375 --> 01:15:10,084 and we continue to see waves of innovation in that area. 948 01:15:10,254 --> 01:15:15,325 I think the the the truth of it is particularly post during COVID and post-OVID, 949 01:15:16,174 --> 01:15:19,975 a lot of people were forced to buy this way at least temporarily. 950 01:15:20,410 --> 01:15:27,640 Because the supermarket shelves were empty, and I think that's sort of broken the the dominance of the supermarkets to a degree, 951 01:15:27,649 --> 01:15:34,850 at least psychologically in the minds of consumers, as in that real estate if you like those gigantic out of town supermarkets are 952 01:15:35,250 --> 01:15:38,770 are no longer the, the dominant forces that they once were, 953 01:15:38,850 --> 01:15:43,359 even, even with the supermarkets you can see that they have shifted over the last 15 years towards 954 01:15:43,729 --> 01:15:49,319 smaller. Retail units and as Chris was mentioning earlier, they're they're rebranding their own brand products 955 01:15:49,640 --> 01:15:53,959 with these sorts of Waverley Farms colloquialisms trying to make it all sorts of. 956 01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:57,899 Cute, uh, and so you know, I think they feel 957 01:15:58,100 --> 01:16:01,529 they do recognise that consumer preferences of 958 01:16:01,970 --> 01:16:06,109 habits are starting to change. Can we

put a brief pause on? 959 01:16:06,310 --> 01:16:09,750 Sure, I drank 15 pints of coke of coconut water before getting. 960 01:16:10,790 --> 01:16:17,560 That was a good hour and a bit anyway, yeah. I suppose what we're keen to do is to show the 961 01:16:17,770 --> 01:16:21,359 LP community, LPs of investors into funds that 962 01:16:21,770 --> 01:16:25,279 those that have put climate as a central focus. 963 01:16:26,180 --> 01:16:31,370 Within climate Soil building as a lever to, 964 01:16:31,819 --> 01:16:35,729 as I said at the very beginning of all of this, restore weather, create habitat, 965 01:16:35,819 --> 01:16:41,169 therefore biodiversity, and ultimately produce nutritious food. This is an incredibly strong lever 966 01:16:41,459 --> 01:16:45,129 for the greatest issues that humanity is facing, 967 01:16:45,290 --> 01:16:49,700 and yet it's not necessarily understood as a brilliantly investable asset class. 968 01:16:50,279 --> 01:16:54,209 And what we want to show is that the underlying 969 01:16:54,520 --> 01:17:00,009 companies that we have the pleasure of being able to get to know and 970 01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:04,169 understand a bit more fully are very much. 971 01:17:04,879 --> 01:17:09,629 Able to generate the venture return profiles that we as a very vanilla venture fund, 972 01:17:09,709 --> 01:17:12,740 and I say vanilla, I mean that in terms of the structure and the way we're set 973 01:17:12,740 --> 01:17:19,939 up for the simple reason that we need to be able to attract the more institutional investors to this space in a way that they haven't 974 01:17:20,430 --> 01:17:24,339 previously necessarily prioritised. And so, 975 01:17:24,859 --> 01:17:28,220 you know, I, we won't, I won't sit here and, and bang the drum on all of our investments, 976 01:17:28,229 --> 01:17:32,350 but you know, if we were to pick maybe 3. 977 01:17:33,490 --> 01:17:37,140 that cover the, the, the value chain. We've, we've spoken briefly about the, 978 01:17:37,169 --> 01:17:41,879 the lending platform. If, if we were to look at in the middle, we could look at a company like 979 01:17:42,490 --> 01:17:49,779 FA BIO. I suppose this is still more on farm, but it was our first decision to work with a fungal microbe discovery platform 980 01:17:50,009 --> 01:17:53,930 that is replacing traditional chemical inputs. 981 01:17:54,839 --> 01:17:58,839 And it was the first time that we decided to work with Big AG. 982 01:17:59,479 --> 01:18:05,359 So it's working with the large players to replace products that they have for particular. 983 01:18:06,490 --> 01:18:10,439 Plants or crops and particular diseases in particular locations. 984 01:18:10,850 --> 01:18:15,509 So in this instance, it might be a fungal microbe that has been 985 01:18:16,330 --> 01:18:19,970 Taken from North Dakota to look at yellow wheat in rust. 986 01:18:20,750 --> 01:18:24,560 And It's an exciting 987 01:18:24,930 --> 01:18:28,410 business model from

our perspective and that each one of these product lines 988 01:18:28,770 --> 01:18:32,959 has a lifetime value of, of, of, let's say 50 million, 989 01:18:33,770 --> 01:18:38,930 which we think is often fairly conservative, and they can produce between 5 and 5. 990 01:18:39,225 --> 01:18:43,734 of these a year, -- we modelled in -- 5 and 15 of separate products. 991 01:18:43,944 --> 01:18:47,305 OK, so we produce products which farmers would buy 992 01:18:47,305 --> 01:18:51,064 to spray on their crops that would replace existing chemicals. 993 01:18:51,165 --> 01:18:55,535 They would be sold by Big Ag to farmers as more efficient 994 01:18:56,274 --> 01:19:01,779 price parity or cheaper. Right. and, -- but the point is we're not trying -- to selling to. 995 01:19:02,919 --> 01:19:06,160 So these are start because your companies are quite early stage startups, 996 01:19:06,240 --> 01:19:09,240 right? -- Would you say like prese -- seed Series A. 997 01:19:09,319 --> 01:19:12,430 So all of our investments thus far have been seed in Series A. 998 01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:17,109 OK, so. And the idea is to get those companies, well this company to 999 01:19:17,500 --> 01:19:23,160 sell to big A. -- So this must be big -- to licence licence those fungal microbe candidates. 1000 01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:29,009 Yeah. OK. And then they just produce it massive volumes of liquid or whatever that has 1001 01:19:29,459 --> 01:19:33,069 the fungal microbes in them. -- Pro -- probably more appropriately a 1002 01:19:33,180 --> 01:19:39,370 a sort of a dried powder or medium through which and then you put that in an IBC tank full of water 1003 01:19:39,700 --> 01:19:43,100 and then you spray it on your on your crop. 1004 01:19:44,319 --> 01:19:48,450 So what I'm trying to get at here is the business model of a company like that is incredibly exciting. 1005 01:19:49,390 --> 01:19:52,540 It's a very clean sales channel and that it's only selling to so 1006 01:19:52,540 --> 01:19:55,689 many of the big a players and they've got very strong relationships there. 1007 01:19:55,979 --> 01:19:59,370 How many are there? Well, it depends where you are and what type of crop, 1008 01:19:59,779 --> 01:20:03,470 but there are only a small handful in each section, 1009 01:20:03,500 --> 01:20:06,979 if you like. So they've been very clever around how they 1010 01:20:06,979 --> 01:20:11,129 built their board and their advisors and their business development team 1011 01:20:11,540 --> 01:20:15,959 and are they already have relationships and they already have, 1012 01:20:16,529 --> 01:20:19,689 uh, non-exclusive, Uh, 1013 01:20:19,700 --> 01:20:22,950 commercial relationships with all of the players that they need, 1014 01:20:23,220 --> 01:20:26,459 -- at least within this first period to licence their first -- products, 1015 01:20:26,540 --> 01:20:31,080 not exclusive because the big companies might want to have exclusivity, 1016 01:20:31,259 --> 01:20:34,859 which we wouldn't deem to be a hugely fair process. 1017 01:20:34,939 --> 01:20:40,799 So yes, OK. And then through to companies like No Fence who are doing virtual fencing, 1018 01:20:41,009 --> 01:20:44,640 which allows you to amp graze as we were talking about earlier, 1019 01:20:45,009 --> 01:20:50,040 but essentially move your livestock across the landscape in a way that is optimal for soil growth. 1020 01:20:50,700 --> 01:20:53,819 Over a period of time without the onerous task of 1021 01:20:53,819 --> 01:20:56,890 having to bang in fence posts on a daily basis. 1022 01:20:57,259 --> 01:21:01,149 And we've had farmers explain, I mean to no offence, 1023 01:21:01,180 --> 01:21:05,910 but about how they they've actually been able to take their wife on a date for the first time in 1024 01:21:06,339 --> 01:21:09,450 -- 10 years because -- that no fence technology work? 1025 01:21:09,620 --> 01:21:14,830 So GPS enabled . Pavlovian response to an audible cue. 1026 01:21:15,649 --> 01:21:19,169 So imagine you're wearing the collar and if you move 1027 01:21:19,169 --> 01:21:24,569 towards the virtual fence which is GPS enabled, you'll hear an audible queue going beep beep beep. 1028 01:21:25,620 --> 01:21:30,640 And if you keep going, the sound will get louder and eventually you'll get a zap. 1029 01:21:30,890 --> 01:21:35,399 A zap, so, so the animals wear some kind of collar or something, 1030 01:21:35,850 --> 01:21:39,700 which is then gives a zap, then they're like, OK, every time it goes beep beep beep beep, 1031 01:21:39,850 --> 01:21:43,359 I'm gonna get a zap, so walk away. So they're trained to it. So, 1032 01:21:44,049 --> 01:21:48,899 they now have large data sets on this. So first of all, the electric shock is half that of a traditional fence. 1033 01:21:49,209 --> 01:21:53,569 So that's important to state. And the second thing is all of the data is showing. 1034 01:21:54,540 --> 01:21:58,770 that, cattle, sheep and goats get trained to the system 1035 01:21:59,419 --> 01:22:03,060 very quickly, and it's only a small percentage of the herd that 1036 01:22:03,060 --> 01:22:06,459 actually get shocks and that small percentage of the herd 1037 01:22:06,459 --> 01:22:10,569 are actually the inquisitive animals that are trying to graze the grass at the edge of the fence line, 1038 01:22:11,060 --> 01:22:14,060 and they often put on the most weight, and they're the sort of the most, 1039 01:22:14,259 --> 01:22:18,109 let's say the most independent risk risk takers of the group. 1040 01:22:19,195 --> 01:22:23,905 get that grass. So in fact, the, the animal welfare data on that system 1041 01:22:24,366 --> 01:22:28,076 -- looks like it's superior to a lot of -- other. So I guess once they're trained on it, 1042 01:22:28,386 --> 01:22:32,215 so it's like, if you give them a few zaps, then they just 1043 01:22:32,545 --> 01:22:36,425 generally apart from this 2% adventurous type, they respect the fans.

1044 01:22:38,136 --> 01:22:44,071 Yeah. And then you can just like on. Some iPad be like right, animals move over there and then the virtual fence would move. 1045 01:22:44,111 --> 01:22:47,551 It'll even draw a corridor for you. And then so then you just start seeing 1046 01:22:47,551 --> 01:22:50,941 -- the animals move by the beeping they're -- hearing. So let's say you've got a field, 1047 01:22:51,202 --> 01:22:54,631 let's a lot of some farms around the UK are non-contiguous, 1048 01:22:54,711 --> 01:22:57,861 i.e. their farmland is separated, let's say by a village, 1049 01:22:58,071 --> 01:23:02,541 and they have to move their cows, you know, uh, with huge disruption across a bridge, 1050 01:23:02,551 --> 01:23:08,479 let's say, or across a road with the. Logistical nightmare that people have been managing for hundreds of years. 1051 01:23:08,609 --> 01:23:13,759 With no fence, you can actually create a corridor and the animals will respect the corridor and move through it onto 1052 01:23:13,759 --> 01:23:16,970 the new the new paddock that you've set for them. 1053 01:23:17,109 --> 01:23:20,500 -- I'd love -- to see that on a time lapse of just how it works. 1054 01:23:20,890 --> 01:23:24,620 Yeah, and then the the the the old fence line will then fold in behind them. 1055 01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:30,049 It's very cool. Or if you just don't particularly enjoy your neighbour's garden. 1056 01:23:30,569 --> 01:23:36,680 And you lead a flock of sheep in at 4 o'clock in the morning and then have them out again by 4:30, 1057 01:23:36,729 --> 01:23:41,339 having decimated your poor neighbour's garden. But in all seriousness, 1058 01:23:41,830 --> 01:23:47,629 it has multiple, it's it's opening up innovation in agroecology that was very difficult. 1059 01:23:48,899 --> 01:23:52,660 beforehand. So an example of that would be grazing through woodlands 1060 01:23:53,140 --> 01:23:57,649 and forests, which is actually really important to do in the Mediterranean right now 1061 01:23:57,939 --> 01:24:01,459 in order to reduce the risk of forest fires because the animals 1062 01:24:01,459 --> 01:24:04,990 will eat the grass which is like a tinder in summertime, 1063 01:24:05,500 --> 01:24:10,490 and they will eat that grass, and kickstart the soil biological process, 1064 01:24:10,660 --> 01:24:14,830 improve water infiltration, essentially. reduce, 1065 01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:20,000 uh, the, the, the, the brash and the amount of tinder that's available in that uh in 1066 01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,500 that forest for that would set off and trigger a forest fire. 1067 01:24:23,879 --> 01:24:27,430 But grazing through woodland is incredibly difficult to manage logistically speaking, 1068 01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:30,970 with no fence it becomes a breeze, and that must save the farm. 1069 01:24:31,040 --> 01:24:35,290 I mean that's like a huge increase in efficiency from day one. 1070 01:24:35,399 --> 01:24:39,580 Well, once the animals are trained on it, I assume because. Now 1071 01:24:39,799 --> 01:24:43,589 the ones that don't have that, they must be what physically like herding 1072 01:24:43,959 --> 01:24:47,029 the like for hours a day or plus the fences or they 1073 01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:50,549 they're putting down fences, -- putting them back -- up. Well, you can, you can imagine, 1074 01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:54,629 I mean you can see it when you're travelling on a train and you're going through any sort of, 1075 01:24:54,759 --> 01:25:00,709 let's say agricultural landscape is that the, the fencing and the hedges essentially dictate 1076 01:25:01,029 --> 01:25:04,120 the environment with which within which the farm farms, 1077 01:25:04,200 --> 01:25:07,709 the farmer farms the land, Longer term, 1078 01:25:07,790 --> 01:25:11,500 no fences opening up a situation where livestock farmers 1079 01:25:11,750 --> 01:25:16,220 don't need to have these physical barriers in the landscape. so, 1080 01:25:16,350 --> 01:25:22,200 uh, at the most, you know, one extreme use of no fence is in conservation grazing. 1081 01:25:22,549 --> 01:25:26,259 So actually some of the biggest clients of no fence in the UK at the moment are 1082 01:25:26,459 --> 01:25:34,109 the big wildlife charities and the National Trust. Who are actually using this to manage manage animals 1083 01:25:34,390 --> 01:25:39,080 in huge landscapes which are of cultural and ecological significance. 1084 01:25:39,649 --> 01:25:44,270 And they can now do things that they weren't able to do beforehand, so they can avoid certain areas that had, 1085 01:25:44,310 --> 01:25:49,870 let's say had ground nesting birds and they don't have to be continually out in 1086 01:25:49,870 --> 01:25:53,660 the landscape micromanaging the herd because the fences control 1087 01:25:53,660 --> 01:25:57,310 -- to the collars or whatever they're using that -- so 1088 01:25:57,310 --> 01:26:02,500 you do have to charge the collars periodically, so you get replacement ones which you can charge up with battery packs, 1089 01:26:02,509 --> 01:26:05,540 but they're also solar panels panels. They last for hours. 1090 01:26:06,470 --> 01:26:10,200 They last for a long, long time. So you could leave them in even in landscape 1091 01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:13,970 that's not even got that much human involvement, if you wanted to like, 1092 01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:17,589 OK, because I, from what I understand about 1093 01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:21,700 grazing cattle, it contributes to. The soil, 1094 01:26:22,529 --> 01:26:25,680 if, if you have animals there, they, 1095 01:26:26,049 --> 01:26:30,359 they poo on those parts of the land that contributes to the soil health as well. 1096 01:26:30,410 --> 01:26:33,529 Is that why you're sending them out grazing? Yeah, 1097 01:26:33,649 --> 01:26:38,560 -- I -- mean, it's, it's again like lots of things, it's complicated and it's nuanced, 1098 01:26:39,700 --> 01:26:45,970 and

we should be transparent that a lot of livestock farming, even extensive farming where they're only eating grass, 1099 01:26:47,759 --> 01:26:52,750 a lot of that land is degraded and the grass is overgrazed as a result of them, 1100 01:26:52,879 --> 01:26:55,879 as a function of poor management. It's not the animal's fault. 1101 01:26:56,000 --> 01:27:01,229 It's, it's the fact that the management of those animals hasn't led to improvements in soil health. 1102 01:27:01,779 --> 01:27:05,720 It's these strategies that Chris was talking about in terms of a grazing, 1103 01:27:05,919 --> 01:27:09,000 rotational forms of grazing, essentially mimicking 1104 01:27:09,250 --> 01:27:14,399 the natural predator prey relationship, which is what trigger triggers this ecological healing, 1105 01:27:14,649 --> 01:27:21,200 and critically, that's where animals are constantly on the move. They're bunched and herded rather than spread out across the land, 1106 01:27:22,290 --> 01:27:26,729 and every blade of grass has a significant, recovery period. 1107 01:27:27,060 --> 01:27:32,169 It's a bit like exercise. You, you don't go to the gym for 7 or 8 hours a day and 1108 01:27:32,169 --> 01:27:35,720 expect and and then have a tiny meal and a short sleep and expect 1109 01:27:36,180 --> 01:27:41,569 great results. It's the same thing with the land is the land needs to have that stimulus, 1110 01:27:41,649 --> 01:27:47,370 it needs to have that exercise, -- but then is the -- grazing by cutting the grass that 1111 01:27:47,370 --> 01:27:51,990 -- like stimulates more growth -- and a grasslands evolved with ruminants. 1112 01:27:52,169 --> 01:27:55,200 It's they they they are one and the same. So, 1113 01:27:55,569 --> 01:28:00,100 a grass. You know, and I've mentioned over grazing as a, 1114 01:28:00,129 --> 01:28:05,200 as a, as a, as a common dimension of degenerative modern agriculture, 1115 01:28:05,890 --> 01:28:10,330 but another one is understocking. So if you have a landscape where you which 1116 01:28:10,569 --> 01:28:13,580 is a grassland landscape or has that ecology within it, 1117 01:28:13,649 --> 01:28:18,229 and historically had grass there, if you remove all of the animals from that landscape, 1118 01:28:18,649 --> 01:28:22,250 the grass uh goes brittle, it oxidises, 1119 01:28:22,290 --> 01:28:26,200 it can look, it goes black because essentially rather than decomposing in the soil, 1120 01:28:26,209 --> 01:28:31,240 it's oxidising and the carbon's going back up into the atmosphere and the grass will eventually die back. 1121 01:28:31,850 --> 01:28:35,470 Right. So you need it. So the so the ideal system is, 1122 01:28:35,580 --> 01:28:38,930 you know, once again looking at a whole ecosystem 1123 01:28:39,180 --> 01:28:42,609 again, it seems like to have animals mixed with 1124 01:28:43,060 --> 01:28:46,770 planting of crops, I mean, or can you, 1125 01:28:46,819 --> 01:28:50,600 because I've seen other like, uh, permaculture systems where they have like 1126 01:28:50,979 --> 01:28:54,339 pigs, they let them in certain areas or chickens, 1127 01:28:54,379 --> 01:28:58,709 they'll go through certain areas, they'll release them or ducks even I think. 1128 01:28:58,970 --> 01:29:05,240 They do that quite a lot in Indonesia as well, where you see they kind of release them into one area to get all the insects out. 1129 01:29:05,399 --> 01:29:10,709 So that, so that's a, and that obviously feeds the ducks and they eat those as well, 1130 01:29:10,770 --> 01:29:14,419 but they would also use them as a part instead of, 1131 01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:18,520 say, using insecticides, send the ducks in, they'll go and eat everything and, 1132 01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:23,759 and the same with even other types of insects, sometimes you can use ecological solutions to. 1133 01:29:24,959 --> 01:29:29,069 keep, uh, certain pests at in 1134 01:29:29,359 --> 01:29:32,750 balance within the ecosystem, so it's not just the, 1135 01:29:32,859 --> 01:29:36,830 the concept of kill everything except the thing we want to grow, 1136 01:29:36,839 --> 01:29:40,350 it's manage a whole ecosystem of 1137 01:29:40,700 --> 01:29:43,950 various species interacting in healthy ways which goes from 1138 01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:48,479 larger species like chickens or ducks down to. 1139 01:29:48,930 --> 01:29:55,160 The micro organisms in the soil, and which also reflects back into our bodies, 1140 01:29:55,330 --> 01:30:00,689 which our bodies are ecosystems as well of like whole microbiome and our guts and all that. 1141 01:30:00,770 --> 01:30:03,839 And it seems to me, it always seems to be coming back to 1142 01:30:04,529 --> 01:30:07,569 realise everything's an ecosystem, realise we're an ecosystem, 1143 01:30:07,609 --> 01:30:11,540 the agricultural system should be an ecosystem too. 1144 01:30:11,979 --> 01:30:15,279 And but that obviously involves a lot more 1145 01:30:15,279 --> 01:30:19,259 understanding of various processes happening and interacting. 1146 01:30:19,319 --> 01:30:22,640 It's not as simple as put input in, get something out, 1147 01:30:22,759 --> 01:30:28,359 you know, put these ingredients and you need to be monitoring lots of different things and I think with 1148 01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:32,189 data collection and again AI would be able to 1149 01:30:32,500 --> 01:30:36,279 show the results of different combinations of species or 1150 01:30:37,470 --> 01:30:41,839 uh you know. Systems interacting with one another 1151 01:30:42,169 --> 01:30:48,319 to to give various results which would then inform what you do on the next round, 1152 01:30:48,410 --> 01:30:54,279 etc. Yeah, no, you're quite right. I mean this is one of the themes that Chris and I talk about is this 1153 01:30:54,649 --> 01:30:57,729 if if farming is complex enough as it is, 1154 01:30:57,810 --> 01:31:02,209 but as you've described, industrial agriculture tries to make things as

basic and 1155 01:31:02,209 --> 01:31:07,319 as plug and play and as monoculture as possible. What you're alluding to with permaculture is, 1156 01:31:07,359 --> 01:31:11,029 is I think is the principle of diversity and stacking 1157 01:31:11,390 --> 01:31:16,770 uh different enterprises on top of one another. that's definitely true of regenerative farming, 1158 01:31:16,879 --> 01:31:23,129 that's a pattern and it implies that the shift is one towards a more knowledge management intensive 1159 01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:28,870 industry that requires adaptive 1160 01:31:30,229 --> 01:31:33,240 shifting decision making and you know, 1161 01:31:33,359 --> 01:31:38,290 so data is. Data is a huge component of this and many of our investments are leveraging, 1162 01:31:38,490 --> 01:31:42,160 gonna be leveraging data. Sure. OK, 1163 01:31:42,410 --> 01:31:45,520 like what other data, so you're looking at the data of soil, 1164 01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:50,419 well, for example, soil soil carbon. So Chris was talking about 1165 01:31:50,770 --> 01:31:56,830 the climate community, the climate investment community. the climate investment community has a, 1166 01:31:57,040 --> 01:32:00,370 has a sort of the same thesis, which is the net zero thesis 1167 01:32:00,720 --> 01:32:05,759 is that if we can reduce industrial emissions, to practically zero 1168 01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:11,799 by 2050, we will escape the worst heating effects of global warming. 1169 01:32:13,129 --> 01:32:17,810 There's an additional scientific thesis which points out that even if we were to 1170 01:32:17,810 --> 01:32:24,250 be successful at reducing all of those emissions, the CO2 that has become acidified in our oceans over 1171 01:32:24,250 --> 01:32:27,870 the last 100 years will re-equippolate with the atmosphere, 1172 01:32:29,770 --> 01:32:36,250 because, you know, principles of osmosis, you create a vacuum and the CO2 will fill that vacuum. 1173 01:32:37,129 --> 01:32:40,589 So in our world, in our climate thesis, carbon drawdown, 1174 01:32:40,759 --> 01:32:44,700 so drawing down as much CO2 as possible into natural ecosystems into 1175 01:32:44,700 --> 01:32:48,430 the oceans and into the soils in our land and into trees, 1176 01:32:48,470 --> 01:32:53,509 is absolutely mission critical. And it's by drawing down the carbon and rebuilding 1177 01:32:53,509 --> 01:32:56,750 our soils that we get these other massive co-benefits. 1178 01:32:57,859 --> 01:33:04,000 by repairing the water cycle, we're essentially rebuilding the planet's natural ability to, 1179 01:33:04,149 --> 01:33:08,959 to cool itself, these refrigeration effects which allow us to 1180 01:33:09,330 --> 01:33:13,479 balance out uh incident solar radiation. I see. 1181 01:33:13,770 --> 01:33:17,450 And what's an example of a company that's helping do those? 1182 01:33:19,569 --> 01:33:23,060 I can't say the name of the specific company that we're about to invest into, 1183 01:33:23,330 --> 01:33:26,479 but I can say that the founders cut their teeth as 1184 01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:30,560 high level mathematicians working with very large environmental data sets. 1185 01:33:31,490 --> 01:33:35,029 So they, they pioneered research in establishing where, 1186 01:33:35,049 --> 01:33:40,700 for example, Ebola outbreaks would occur in Africa. by crunching large amounts of, 1187 01:33:40,709 --> 01:33:45,299 uh, uh, of environmental data, and they're applying that same thinking 1188 01:33:45,629 --> 01:33:48,779 to how we measure the world's soils. I see. 1189 01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:54,709 Interesting. And how many companies are you guys looking at before you philtre down 1190 01:33:54,919 --> 01:33:59,549 to the ones that make it into the portfolio? I haven't got 700 in our pipe at the moment. 1191 01:34:00,339 --> 01:34:04,709 Yeah. 14 billion sterling in terms of 1192 01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:10,490 that 700s next round requirements for funding. 1193 01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:16,069 So the, the, the opportunity for fund managers in this space and 1194 01:34:16,459 --> 01:34:20,080 you know, the reason that we are hopefully being the opposite of. 1195 01:34:20,669 --> 01:34:24,310 Proprietary and protectionist, and we want to be as inclusive as possible in terms 1196 01:34:24,310 --> 01:34:27,540 of encouraging more fund managers into this space as possible. 1197 01:34:28,069 --> 01:34:31,290 The opportunity for many of us to exist, 1198 01:34:31,950 --> 01:34:38,740 I say many, I mean there could be 2030, 40 funds at 50 to 100 million looking at the space. 1199 01:34:39,259 --> 01:34:43,410 I still don't think there'd be a saturation point. -- And these are -- all startups. 1200 01:34:43,919 --> 01:34:48,279 -- So we -- say startups. So, so we invest preces Series A, 1201 01:34:48,529 --> 01:34:52,089 which for those that I don't know how well your audience know the space, 1202 01:34:52,129 --> 01:34:55,680 but prece company is pre-revenue. It's an idea. 1203 01:34:55,810 --> 01:35:00,759 It might be a very small team. a late Series A company 1204 01:35:01,290 --> 01:35:10,100 could be doing double digit million revenue, Hopefully on a some kind of res on a margin that makes sense, 1205 01:35:11,660 --> 01:35:16,500 Raising upwards of between 20 and 40 million for that particular round. 1206 01:35:16,709 --> 01:35:20,660 So it's a pretty large swathe, and 1207 01:35:21,270 --> 01:35:24,839 the amount of companies that we see that are operating 1208 01:35:25,029 --> 01:35:30,609 within a very specific sector or section of that farm to fork value chain that are already offering 1209 01:35:30,830 --> 01:35:34,910 a more viable, more economically useful for the. 1210 01:35:35,970 --> 01:35:40,600 whether it's the farmer or the corporate or the entity that is transitioning 1211 01:35:40,810 --> 01:35:44,200 as well as producing a better product, exists, 1212 01:35:44,330 --> 01:35:49,379 uh, to a point where, We

feel incredibly privileged to be able to 1213 01:35:49,930 --> 01:35:55,839 sit as one of the, uh, I'm hesitant to use the word pioneering venture firms in this space, 1214 01:35:55,890 --> 01:36:01,180 but we're one of a very small handful I would say that so and the. 1215 01:36:01,790 --> 01:36:07,060 The opportunities really do abound, and I suppose one of the pieces that makes it more exciting for 1216 01:36:07,060 --> 01:36:11,370 us than potentially going into a very saturated space in terms of investor 1217 01:36:11,660 --> 01:36:15,299 is the fact that because across this farm to pork value chain, 1218 01:36:15,419 --> 01:36:20,049 so much of the science is nascent, whether this is our understanding of the soil or hydrology, 1219 01:36:20,819 --> 01:36:23,890 latent cooling systems, or how we bioassimilate food, 1220 01:36:23,939 --> 01:36:28,089 or how we get consumers to shift their consumption patterns quickly. 1221 01:36:28,859 --> 01:36:33,870 It's produced. This enormous dirge of companies as I say, 1222 01:36:34,040 --> 01:36:40,359 but also the the either the experts or the researchers or the vocal components of those. 1223 01:36:40,399 --> 01:36:45,149 So the people that are either hosting the radio shows or writing the books or 1224 01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:49,990 Doctor Chris getting his shows on TV or the supermarkets that are leading the space like, 1225 01:36:50,759 --> 01:36:56,470 I mean, I've used Waitrose as an example. Because we're the first fund into this space, 1226 01:36:56,640 --> 01:37:00,209 we get to have access to. A lot of these, 1227 01:37:00,580 --> 01:37:03,930 we call them our heroes, but a lot of these drivers, 1228 01:37:04,819 --> 01:37:08,149 and that not only allows us to have fairly 1229 01:37:08,580 --> 01:37:12,770 cutting edges as modestly as I'd say it, access to best information, 1230 01:37:12,979 --> 01:37:17,569 but it also allows us access to an incredibly or disproportionately active 1231 01:37:18,100 --> 01:37:21,299 network. And if our team is only ever going to consist 1232 01:37:21,299 --> 01:37:25,819 of a very small handful of us because we believe in in uh . 1233 01:37:26,430 --> 01:37:30,509 Full full accountability, essentially, and having to know our companies that we're investing 1234 01:37:30,509 --> 01:37:34,120 in or preparing to invest in incredibly well. Then 1235 01:37:34,379 --> 01:37:38,549 it allows us to be a small team who technically are low touch. 1236 01:37:38,700 --> 01:37:44,580 You have venture firms that would have many people working with each portfolio company post investment 1237 01:37:44,580 --> 01:37:48,680 to make sure that they are hitting their KPIs and they are progressing in a way that 1238 01:37:48,890 --> 01:37:52,020 is optimal for the investor. We obviously can't afford to do that. 1239 01:37:52,419 --> 01:37:58,370 So we are by definition low touch investors, but because we have such a disproportionately active network, 1240 01:37:58,740 --> 01:38:02,569 whether that's the big farming groups in the UK, whether it's DEFRA, 1241 01:38:02,819 --> 01:38:07,450 whether it's the ministers, whether it's any of the big food corporates that operate within the UK, 1242 01:38:07,740 --> 01:38:11,705 whether it's of the largest investors globally looking at this space, 1243 01:38:11,834 --> 01:38:15,785 whether it's West Coast, Silicon Valleys, many of whom bring a level of 1244 01:38:16,395 --> 01:38:21,754 experience and technical knowledge that is, you know, very differentiated to what we might have in 1245 01:38:21,754 --> 01:38:27,544 the UK or whether it's universities here, we'll be able to bring those parties together and really 1246 01:38:28,515 --> 01:38:32,504 forge progress. And and and that I suppose is 1247 01:38:33,060 --> 01:38:37,459 Is what's so exciting about where we are and really I think 1248 01:38:37,459 --> 01:38:43,770 creates a duty for Simon and I who are now, Fairly long in the teeth of this to to actually 1249 01:38:44,069 --> 01:38:47,640 like really -- get -- moving. One, 1250 01:38:48,069 --> 01:38:51,669 you know, one of our visions and this sort of I think touches on 1251 01:38:51,950 --> 01:38:57,370 some of the business models and some of the strategy around. What we're doing at Pelicanag is 1252 01:38:58,399 --> 01:39:03,310 there's an emerging asset class, very early stage emerging asset class, 1253 01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:07,500 particularly in Europe, and it's called natural capital. So, 1254 01:39:08,379 --> 01:39:13,160 there are various reasons why this is all going on, Uh, 1255 01:39:13,279 --> 01:39:20,649 I'll give you an example, Uh, larger corporates have signed up in the UK and Europe to two regimes. 1256 01:39:20,660 --> 01:39:25,410 One's called TNFD Task Force for Nature Financial Disclosures, 1257 01:39:25,680 --> 01:39:32,209 and CSRD, which is the equivalent in the EU, but this is the first time in the world where large companies are, 1258 01:39:32,419 --> 01:39:38,569 are volunteering to disclose their exposure to biodiversity loss, 1259 01:39:39,100 --> 01:39:47,169 and habitat destruction. And So this is in a sense an extension of climate policy 1260 01:39:47,540 --> 01:39:52,009 whereby governments around the world are recognising and this has all come through 1261 01:39:52,009 --> 01:39:55,370 the cops really over the last sort of 15 or so years, 1262 01:39:55,740 --> 01:40:00,149 but there's a growing recognition that uh our economies need to shift 1263 01:40:00,620 --> 01:40:05,939 away from what we've been doing towards, towards a more nature positive future. 1264 01:40:07,370 --> 01:40:14,000 and that in a sense has started with disclosures around uh emissions and attempts to reduce emissions 1265 01:40:14,370 --> 01:40:18,390 at various levels, scope one, scope 2, and scope 3, which you can touch on if people want to, 1266 01:40:19,020 --> 01:40:22,240 and now it's entering the world

of, of biodiversity. 1267 01:40:22,729 --> 01:40:27,720 So where is the biodiversity loss occurring? How can we stop it or reduce it? 1268 01:40:27,930 --> 01:40:31,649 How do we change our businesses to adapt to a changing climate. 1269 01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:36,669 Uh, and how can we restore biodiversity, and that's where natural capital comes in. 1270 01:40:37,490 --> 01:40:40,970 So large institutional investors are beginning to 1271 01:40:41,140 --> 01:40:45,109 raise funds and write significant checks 1272 01:40:45,419 --> 01:40:49,910 into a range of entrepreneurs and businesses uh and NGOs 1273 01:40:50,220 --> 01:40:53,649 that are looking to rebuild habitats at scale around the world 1274 01:40:54,100 --> 01:40:59,250 and within that regenerative farming is one of the key areas of deployment 1275 01:40:59,729 --> 01:41:06,620 so Chris and I are very much the vanguard of where a lot of capital is going to be deployed. 1276 01:41:07,600 --> 01:41:11,479 Into uh the farming community, but other land stewards. 1277 01:41:12,979 --> 01:41:16,540 in order to rebuild the soil, rebuild habitats, 1278 01:41:16,700 --> 01:41:20,450 you know, plant trees, introduce these various repair, 1279 01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:27,919 uh, water courses, for example, but that's only gonna happen in exchange for hard 1280 01:41:28,419 --> 01:41:31,649 ecological data that improvements have taken place. 1281 01:41:32,100 --> 01:41:36,229 Right. So the very same technologies that we think are can 1282 01:41:36,229 --> 01:41:39,859 be functional and helpful to the farming and the food community 1283 01:41:40,229 --> 01:41:45,540 to establish what regenerative farming is from a sort of a continuous improvement perspective 1284 01:41:46,069 --> 01:41:50,669 are the same layers of technology that institutional investors are going to require in 1285 01:41:50,669 --> 01:41:58,459 order to make these exchanges of value, money going to land stewards for nature based solutions in exchange for 1286 01:41:58,790 --> 01:42:02,029 proof that ecological impact has taken place. 1287 01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:08,549 Maybe this is quite a good segue into the institutional investor. 1288 01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:15,000 They are the difference between. Meaningful funding and and and not and this space that. 1289 01:42:15,680 --> 01:42:19,620 I suppose might have been considered fairly cottage 1290 01:42:19,990 --> 01:42:23,189 a few years ago is now very much on the map. 1291 01:42:23,270 --> 01:42:26,790 So we're an emerging fund manager, an emerging venture fund manager. 1292 01:42:27,770 --> 01:42:32,669 We're raising 75 million, which is very small for those that don't know the space, 1293 01:42:33,290 --> 01:42:37,779 and it would have been incredibly rare for an institution 1294 01:42:38,089 --> 01:42:44,310 to have got excited or even considered an emerging manager in a niche sector 10 years ago, 1295 01:42:44,399 --> 01:42:47,959 5 years ago. We're now

being 1296 01:42:48,209 --> 01:42:51,560 backed and in the process of being backed, 1297 01:42:51,799 --> 01:42:56,000 i.e., very far through quite extensive due diligence with. 1298 01:42:56,270 --> 01:43:01,140 A range of investors who have alighted within their climates. 1299 01:43:01,810 --> 01:43:05,609 Thesis on soil building, nature restoration, 1300 01:43:06,009 --> 01:43:09,600 regenerative farming, healthy food as a solution 1301 01:43:09,850 --> 01:43:13,810 to the health crisis, the restoration of climate. 1302 01:43:14,620 --> 01:43:19,939 As the key area to focus on. Now the options within this is they can get involved in 1303 01:43:19,939 --> 01:43:23,290 a real asset fund that buys land to reforest or to 1304 01:43:23,500 --> 01:43:28,810 farm regeneratively, and there are some great players around the world whom we know very well in America, 1305 01:43:28,979 --> 01:43:33,830 in Australia, some of whom have raised as much as 750 million into their last products 1306 01:43:34,100 --> 01:43:37,950 and might be working from almonds in California to prunes in 1307 01:43:38,180 --> 01:43:41,290 Portugal. Uh, 1308 01:43:41,609 --> 01:43:46,080 so it's real asset investment, which is, which is owning the land or or having some kind of lease, 1309 01:43:47,169 --> 01:43:52,330 relationship with the landowner within these products, or it's getting into the private markets. 1310 01:43:52,450 --> 01:43:57,759 Now, within the private markets. The UK has never been as sophisticated as America 1311 01:43:57,759 --> 01:44:01,160 in terms of the amount of a portfolio, the percentage of a portfolio 1312 01:44:01,330 --> 01:44:07,529 that would go into PE and venture. And what does go into the venture portfolio tends 1313 01:44:07,529 --> 01:44:10,970 to be through the 5 large venture funds, venture firms in in the UK. 1314 01:44:11,870 --> 01:44:18,240 So What we're seeing is these institutions realise that there simply aren't. 1315 01:44:19,279 --> 01:44:23,270 Focused investors within the Nature Food and farming restoration space 1316 01:44:23,919 --> 01:44:27,160 that we can back. And if we want this ecosystem to develop, 1317 01:44:27,240 --> 01:44:30,379 we've got to go early stage because in 5 years' time these 1318 01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:34,790 Series A companies will be on their potentially their Series C or potentially IPOing, 1319 01:44:35,279 --> 01:44:39,209 and the pre-C companies will be at Series B. So we need 1320 01:44:39,609 --> 01:44:44,500 to, uh, we need to invest it for for for the development of the sector, 1321 01:44:45,109 --> 01:44:48,640 but also because there's a first mover advantage. 1322 01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:53,399 So we're suddenly seeing super large British institutions. 1323 01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:58,229 Where the needle of investing 5 million pounds into a 75 million pounds fund, 1324 01:44:58,520 --> 01:45:03,310 even if it does incredibly well, is not significant enough to move that needle at all. 1325 01:45:03,919 --> 01:45:07,549 However, realise the importance of being involved in the space 1326 01:45:07,790 --> 01:45:13,080 and wanting to develop it. So we're being looked at extraordinarily by the range of 1327 01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:18,709 banks, wealth managers, pension funds. Large corporates 1328 01:45:18,959 --> 01:45:24,600 and not just corporates within food and farming. but corporates who are perhaps one 1329 01:45:25,319 --> 01:45:29,759 less related to the space right as investors into your fund, 1330 01:45:30,120 --> 01:45:34,640 the fund, right, which they would, yeah, because it does seem from my experience, 1331 01:45:34,720 --> 01:45:39,189 a lot of institutional investors would they kind of shy away from 1332 01:45:39,359 --> 01:45:42,770 the really early stage stuff, especially pension funds, things like that. 1333 01:45:43,080 --> 01:45:50,959 They'd want to wait till you're more established, but there does also seem to be massive funds out there available. 1334 01:45:51,680 --> 01:45:54,910 With the aim of even through the World Bank or the UN 1335 01:45:55,359 --> 01:45:59,600 there's huge amount of green bonds being issued and things like that 1336 01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:03,930 and I mean some numbers are like enormous like in the multi billions 1337 01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:08,470 and so it seems like there is a desire 1338 01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:12,470 to do something and funds being raised successfully for it, 1339 01:46:12,839 --> 01:46:19,640 but I wonder how much is making it down to the early stage guys like what you guys are focusing on. 1340 01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:25,350 that's our, that's our crusade, literally just summarised it. Yeah. 1341 01:46:25,560 --> 01:46:29,870 And and it's, it's one that. It it usually just involves explanation, 1342 01:46:29,910 --> 01:46:34,029 and we've sat down with very large asset managers who are 1343 01:46:34,759 --> 01:46:38,839 very much focused on real assets and. 1344 01:46:40,209 --> 01:46:44,560 Explaining the needs to at least put a percentage of their portfolio into this space 1345 01:46:44,850 --> 01:46:49,009 after once we've explained, the, the penny does seem to, 1346 01:46:49,129 --> 01:46:54,089 to really drop. If it hasn't already, you know, we don't want to sound like we're patronising these people. 1347 01:46:54,410 --> 01:46:57,529 It, it feels like there will be 1348 01:46:58,089 --> 01:47:02,970 more of an influx of, of, of institutional funds in an extraordinary fashion into 1349 01:47:02,970 --> 01:47:06,529 this particular sector because it needs to be driven. 1350 01:47:07,129 --> 01:47:11,220 Into maturity and that's, and that's really exciting for us. 1351 01:47:11,430 --> 01:47:15,180 It also is a way of engaging these larger institutions because, 1352 01:47:15,669 --> 01:47:19,100 you know, the stories are often so impressive at a venture level, 1353 01:47:19,430 --> 01:47:23,240 whether you're

restoring, you know, a particular area or whether you're, 1354 01:47:23,589 --> 01:47:29,209 uh, you know, as our last investment, which is a a platform I say our last investment the company we're looking at, 1355 01:47:29,220 --> 01:47:34,149 which is a nutritional analysis platform that really does provide. 1356 01:47:34,970 --> 01:47:39,850 The, the raw data that that leads every road back to regeneration. 1357 01:47:40,580 --> 01:47:44,049 It's, it's a story that's very exciting for 1358 01:47:44,700 --> 01:47:49,819 more institutional investors to begin to get to on board with and sit with us for a number of 1359 01:47:49,819 --> 01:47:55,259 years and and and our companies and actually watch the whole space mature over the various different stages. 1360 01:47:55,859 --> 01:48:03,680 If, if I may, Those institutional investors that have were pioneers in impact investing and 1361 01:48:03,930 --> 01:48:09,359 ESG mandates, they've gone long on renewable energy 1362 01:48:09,490 --> 01:48:12,549 infrastructure and affordable housing, uh, 1363 01:48:12,569 --> 01:48:18,810 and to a certain degree depending on which ter if they're investing in developing countries they've also gone gone long into education. 1364 01:48:20,970 --> 01:48:27,709 That I think it's a logical, I think they've told us quite explicitly that their logical next step 1365 01:48:28,109 --> 01:48:34,089 is to invest in food and farming and nature. as critical infrastructure. 1366 01:48:34,879 --> 01:48:40,669 Because if you've, if you've established a thesis around addressing social environmental issues within the economy, 1367 01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:44,200 all roads as we've described endlessly lead back to 1368 01:48:44,430 --> 01:48:47,640 lead back to the land and how we're managing it, so. 1369 01:48:48,620 --> 01:48:52,779 I agree with you, yes, they are cautious, and 1370 01:48:52,950 --> 01:48:56,459 they never like backing things that are thoroughly immature. 1371 01:48:57,200 --> 01:49:00,979 But by the same token, we're living in extraordinary times. Uh, 1372 01:49:01,069 --> 01:49:04,220 and so I think the market signals are very, very clear. 1373 01:49:04,589 --> 01:49:08,350 Capital is already being allocated to emerging managers such as ourselves. 1374 01:49:09,140 --> 01:49:12,580 And in that sense it means that our job is fairly 1375 01:49:12,830 --> 01:49:17,950 simple in terms of sitting down with these LPs. It's proving that the market exists, 1376 01:49:17,990 --> 01:49:21,470 which we can do very easily through referencing the range of companies we're seeing. 1377 01:49:21,819 --> 01:49:26,549 It's then proving that there's enough companies that have the return profiles that 1378 01:49:26,790 --> 01:49:31,939 a a a standard investor is gonna want, i.e. it's not sacrificing anything versus standard venture. 1379 01:49:32,350 --> 01:49:36,419 And obviously, what we try and do is show how it exceeds 1380 01:49:36,859 --> 01:49:42,060 usual market dynamics. a third piece that plays into our, 1381 01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:48,129 our hands is almost everyone we meet has had someone who has either been affected, 1382 01:49:48,399 --> 01:49:53,750 who either owns land or, has seen land being degraded that they care about, 1383 01:49:54,240 --> 01:49:59,129 or has a family member who has been in some way 1384 01:49:59,759 --> 01:50:04,120 negatively affected by by diet. Sure, oh, 1385 01:50:04,129 --> 01:50:08,049 almost everyone, yeah, and as that comes into play in this, 1386 01:50:08,250 --> 01:50:12,720 you know, the idea that. You know, if the American public realised that 1387 01:50:13,089 --> 01:50:18,189 each year on an annual basis, more Americans die from diet-related ill health 1388 01:50:18,529 --> 01:50:22,580 than from every single American war combined on an 1389 01:50:23,129 --> 01:50:26,410 annual basis, people would be in uproar. And, 1390 01:50:26,490 --> 01:50:30,680 and this, this is, is, is coming more and more to the fore. 1391 01:50:30,689 --> 01:50:34,270 So I suppose the point is the tailwinds for 1392 01:50:34,850 --> 01:50:42,160 showing investors. Not only why from a moral obligation perspective and a planetary perspective, 1393 01:50:42,290 --> 01:50:47,770 but from a return profile perspective of how important this is, is becoming something that we don't really need 1394 01:50:47,770 --> 01:50:53,290 to touch anymore and at the political level, it's very difficult to see a future where the Western economies 1395 01:50:53,290 --> 01:50:57,430 are spending more on their healthcare systems than they are now. you know, 1396 01:50:57,509 --> 01:51:02,419 there's already a lot of resistance in the population although we've voted in a labour government 1397 01:51:02,669 --> 01:51:08,020 and we've kicked out of, I think an incredibly useless, busted flush of a Tory government, 1398 01:51:08,950 --> 01:51:12,459 you can see that there's a huge amount of resistance in society to 1399 01:51:12,830 --> 01:51:18,419 pay more taxation uh into into public services which 1400 01:51:18,750 --> 01:51:22,700 are we're so incredibly dependent on, you know, in a sense there is a 1401 01:51:22,950 --> 01:51:26,979 there is a subconscious awareness that we've we've built. A beast of burden. 1402 01:51:28,890 --> 01:51:36,580 and we only we only get a more efficient, and cheaper healthcare service by becoming healthier as a nation. 1403 01:51:37,009 --> 01:51:44,640 And, and that joined up thinking that we've spent, you know, we've sat on panels advising government bills on life state usage, 1404 01:51:45,649 --> 01:51:51,479 or bio input usage because bio inputs are still looked at by the chemical department as opposed to DEFRA, 1405 01:51:51,490 --> 01:51:56,149 for instance. But the point is this joined up thinking in government is 1406 01:51:56,520 --> 01:52:01,120 being petitioned for by various think tanks, the Food and Farming

Commission being a good one, 1407 01:52:01,319 --> 01:52:05,629 who've recently, I think last week released their true cost of British food, 1408 01:52:05,799 --> 01:52:08,919 which essentially says that we spend more on healthcare. 1409 01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:13,859 As a result of diet-related ill health than we do on the food system itself 1410 01:52:14,279 --> 01:52:19,700 and the, I think the figure was 56 billion that could be spent on preventative, 1411 01:52:20,600 --> 01:52:23,740 food education or food as medicine, that would 1412 01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:29,009 then prevent the I think it's something like 270 that's spent 1413 01:52:29,529 --> 01:52:35,839 in, in, on the healthcare side. -- I -- guess the challenge is to get consensus of what is healthy. 1414 01:52:36,009 --> 01:52:41,930 I mean, some are pretty obvious, some things are pretty obvious, move away from the highly processed more towards whole foods, 1415 01:52:41,970 --> 01:52:46,120 but even inside that is their consensus on what is a healthy diet. 1416 01:52:46,410 --> 01:52:50,439 You know, you go to, even you go to hospitals, you see what kind of food they serve there. 1417 01:52:50,970 --> 01:52:54,350 It's just. -- It's almost like they don't know what's -- healthy. 1418 01:52:54,700 --> 01:52:59,529 You've just been, you've just been told that you're diabetic and you end up with a jelly on your plate and some 1419 01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:07,930 tinned cream. We've we've all been lied to and in a sense it's no one's, it's no one's fault, 1420 01:53:10,890 --> 01:53:15,270 Yeah, we're not, we're not gonna make progress by shaming each other or pointing fingers. 1421 01:53:16,839 --> 01:53:22,910 but yeah, I think an acceptance that Whole Foods are superior to ultra processed foods is not 1422 01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:26,919 staggeringly controversial, although it is going to trigger a lot of people, 1423 01:53:27,129 --> 01:53:30,279 particularly because there's a lot of people who can't afford Whole Foods. 1424 01:53:30,799 --> 01:53:34,109 So it creates a class divide that that there's a risk of. 1425 01:53:34,169 --> 01:53:40,319 -- Of of that becoming -- because what is it? Is it 3% of food is organic in the UK or something like that? 1426 01:53:40,640 --> 01:53:44,470 So that's pretty small. So that means 97% is chemical laden, 1427 01:53:45,089 --> 01:53:49,839 etc. So you're, I always find it and the and the premium of organic to 1428 01:53:49,990 --> 01:53:53,109 to non-organic food is like I'm, 1429 01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:59,459 I'm paying to not have chemicals on my food. And people can't afford to not pay that premium. 1430 01:53:59,529 --> 01:54:04,479 That is crazy, but if there was more, if all the farmers moved into that space, 1431 01:54:04,810 --> 01:54:08,649 -- I assume that would bring the cost down and make it more -- affordable for everyone. 1432 01:54:08,930 --> 01:54:12,450 As Chris has mentioned, we're we're already at the

beginning of a massive 1433 01:54:12,890 --> 01:54:17,479 sea change, the biggest sea change in agricultural policy in 70 years. 1434 01:54:17,959 --> 01:54:22,850 So the ELMS programme that Chris has alluded to, which is a break from the Common Agricultural Policy. 1435 01:54:23,270 --> 01:54:27,770 It's far from a perfect set of policies, there's lots of issues with it, 1436 01:54:28,020 --> 01:54:31,140 but the general direction of travel is from paying farmers 1437 01:54:31,140 --> 01:54:37,490 to produce as much food as they possibly can, which was the post-war farming social contract. 1438 01:54:38,799 --> 01:54:42,109 towards essentially, public goods 1439 01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:45,919 with, with nature and healthy soil and biodiversity, 1440 01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:51,209 being central to that, alongside food production. So that's 1441 01:54:51,660 --> 01:54:56,500 huge over the long term, because at the moment, what we see in the supermarket is essentially 1442 01:54:56,500 --> 01:55:05,100 a system that we subsidise through our taxation. Sure, like what most food being produced is subsidised in some way like milk. 1443 01:55:05,359 --> 01:55:08,740 I know dairy is, is no, not really, 1444 01:55:08,799 --> 01:55:15,359 not really dairy. What's what section is. The things that are subsidised are the most ultra processed foods. 1445 01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:25,370 Really, globally speaking, yeah. -- subsidise how they subsidise the -- producers we're paying farmers to essentially 1446 01:55:25,770 --> 01:55:29,810 produce the most amount of food in the easiest way possible. 1447 01:55:31,240 --> 01:55:36,250 for the largest buyers. I see. Which is why you know, 1448 01:55:36,720 --> 01:55:40,740 the, the, the negatives at the moment around what's happened with inheritance tax and 1449 01:55:41,479 --> 01:55:48,149 farming generally, uh, you know, the, the subsidies that are on the table at the moment are about 3.5 billion a year. 1450 01:55:48,319 --> 01:55:55,600 I, I, I think, we've agreed 22.5 billion to go to direct air carbon capture this year, 1451 01:55:55,640 --> 01:56:00,270 which I think is 4000 jobs, uh, which is. in 1452 01:56:00,479 --> 01:56:05,779 our world is a fairly depressing thing to hear because we see soil obviously 1453 01:56:05,779 --> 01:56:11,709 as being the great direct air carbon capture piece and not a bit of machinery that isn't necessarily proven. 1454 01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:15,589 But -- we're we're more -- expensive and a lot more expensive 1455 01:56:15,589 --> 01:56:18,879 and it's sort of farcical and a bit tragic, and I hope that the money doesn't end up 1456 01:56:18,879 --> 01:56:22,990 getting spent and there's there's a lot of pushback, so hopefully we will not see it being spent. 1457 01:56:23,200 --> 01:56:30,009 But the only thing that That if you were to try and take positives around where we are now in the UK 1458 01:56:30,839 --> 01:56:34,200 you've got the, obviously the Common Agricultural Policy being phased 1459 01:56:34,200 --> 01:56:38,740 out and Elms being phased in. By no means by no means perfect, 1460 01:56:38,819 --> 01:56:43,049 but it will improve. We're seeing a generational handover, 1461 01:56:43,180 --> 01:56:47,810 the average age of a farmer is depending on who you ask, somewhere between 56 and 64. 1462 01:56:49,419 --> 01:56:52,830 and we're seeing a profloration 1463 01:56:53,100 --> 01:56:56,149 of different markets appear, 1464 01:56:56,419 --> 01:57:01,890 different brands appear. Different ways of communicating 1465 01:57:02,180 --> 01:57:06,740 from farm to farm, more acceptance around shifting farm practise 1466 01:57:07,100 --> 01:57:10,649 and crucially big farm, big, big farm, big ag, 1467 01:57:10,740 --> 01:57:14,169 big food, all getting on the bandwagon 1468 01:57:14,379 --> 01:57:19,189 to different, to varying degrees for transitioning a food system. 1469 01:57:19,580 --> 01:57:24,379 So. There is going to be monumental significant change, 1470 01:57:24,669 --> 01:57:30,060 and it's only going to accelerate whilst the world is also legislating 1471 01:57:30,290 --> 01:57:33,819 and whilst from a visceral human perspective, we witness 1472 01:57:34,470 --> 01:57:39,819 more and more extreme weather events and begin to understand the issues going on with our health. 1473 01:57:40,359 --> 01:57:45,669 So, however painful it is, all of that is going to forge this change, 1474 01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:49,189 which is the underlying basis for why we're doing this. 1475 01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:52,790 And it's very easy, you know, the human condition. 1476 01:57:54,549 --> 01:57:58,020 Finds it very easy to focus on a negative 1477 01:57:58,229 --> 01:58:01,899 and to let it become the mainstay of how one thinks and 1478 01:58:02,509 --> 01:58:06,020 there's a use in that. It's, it's a survival piece, 1479 01:58:06,669 --> 01:58:12,359 but it's not, it's actually very lazy often because the harder thing to do is to imagine what 1480 01:58:12,700 --> 01:58:17,580 the opposite, what the positive could bring. And the great thing about the UK 1481 01:58:17,709 --> 01:58:22,100 in terms of technology, in terms of innovation is that we've always led in Europe 1482 01:58:22,100 --> 01:58:26,379 we've always fostered an incredible dynamic within our university system within 1483 01:58:26,930 --> 01:58:30,720 even even funding systems to make sure that there is 1484 01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:34,490 room to fund and to get involved with creation of innovation 1485 01:58:34,910 --> 01:58:39,709 and. I, from the experience that Simon and I have of 1486 01:58:40,299 --> 01:58:44,049 interviewing. Many early stage. 1487 01:58:44,979 --> 01:58:48,520 Young, bright-eyed and bushy tailed people often, I say young, 1488 01:58:48,580 --> 01:58:51,649 often they're, they're people who have perhaps been 1489 01:58:51,779 --> 01:58:57,569 in academia for 40 years, but who are

new to the game as entrepreneurs often. 1490 01:58:57,859 --> 01:59:01,330 The, the, the experience that we have in interviewing these people is, is quite, 1491 01:59:02,259 --> 01:59:05,930 I suppose is on a very basic level, is is totally humbling. 1492 01:59:06,939 --> 01:59:10,930 we are forever having our perceptions pushed 1493 01:59:11,140 --> 01:59:14,870 and whatever we thought was. usually, 1494 01:59:15,520 --> 01:59:19,950 totally one thing or we had an opinion either way, it's very frequently turned on its head, 1495 01:59:20,279 --> 01:59:26,470 and the UK has a very real chance provided funding is encouraged into this space, 1496 01:59:26,919 --> 01:59:31,350 at a greater rate of really leading within Europe 1497 01:59:31,879 --> 01:59:35,790 and even exporting, whether it's our 1498 01:59:36,390 --> 01:59:40,790 codes and certifications or whether it's our methodologies to the rest of the world. 1499 01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:47,649 Yeah, I mean, just a second what Chris has said, I forget who. made this sort of petty observation, 1500 01:59:47,729 --> 01:59:50,819 but in an area that's poised for rapid innovation, 1501 01:59:51,089 --> 01:59:55,200 the first observation is the talent pool increasing, 1502 01:59:55,930 --> 02:00:03,359 and then the capital is always a lag to that. And if you were to spend a week or a month or 6 months in Chris and I's shoes, 1503 02:00:04,129 --> 02:00:07,799 you'd see that there's such a deep bench, the talent pool is 1504 02:00:08,129 --> 02:00:11,810 really impressive in our in our space and that's the biggest. 1505 02:00:12,600 --> 02:00:15,600 Visceral signal, that's the biggest, I think, 1506 02:00:16,100 --> 02:00:19,299 data point that our space has significant momentum. 1507 02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:25,069 So the the the the soft quality that goes with the talent pool increasing 1508 02:00:25,069 --> 02:00:28,669 that I don't think it's spoken about enough, but it's probably part of the reason that we're here, 1509 02:00:28,750 --> 02:00:31,979 you know, you've spent time studying permaculture. 1510 02:00:32,149 --> 02:00:37,450 You know, we met at a regenerative food systems conference and your knowledge was, 1511 02:00:37,669 --> 02:00:41,649 was, was fairly unique and we had this bond around where we 1512 02:00:42,189 --> 02:00:48,120 thought that the world could move to and you had some. experience in Brazil and we're here and it was, 1513 02:00:48,229 --> 02:00:52,540 it was common ground, but what I'm alluding to is because everyone 1514 02:00:52,830 --> 02:00:57,819 eats and everyone experiences nature at some point and everyone understands either health or ill health 1515 02:00:58,339 --> 02:01:01,540 and climate, there is this visceral glue 1516 02:01:01,950 --> 02:01:06,950 and it's something that I think investors have probably been wary 1517 02:01:06,950 --> 02:01:14,229 of talking about with LPs because it sounds, ethereal and sort of unquantifiable and

a bit probably namby pamby. 1518 02:01:14,759 --> 02:01:17,890 The reality of it is that. If 1519 02:01:18,060 --> 02:01:23,549 you're talking sense and you have a clearer message or a clear aim 1520 02:01:24,169 --> 02:01:27,859 or a clear way you can help. It creates 1521 02:01:28,629 --> 02:01:32,259 an accelerated way of working together that is 1522 02:01:32,470 --> 02:01:36,450 incredibly useful when building a company or investing into a company. 1523 02:01:37,069 --> 02:01:40,220 So it means that other investors, for instance, in this space, 1524 02:01:40,709 --> 02:01:44,250 will send us a company and say we really want you to look at this, 1525 02:01:44,259 --> 02:01:47,620 and we really want you to join the round, even if the round's closed, 1526 02:01:47,879 --> 02:01:52,419 because we think you're a focused investor who would be able to add disproportionate value to the company over the long run. 1527 02:01:52,910 --> 02:01:56,589 Or it might be. We are 1528 02:01:56,870 --> 02:02:01,040 working with a team of farmers or landowners, 1529 02:02:01,049 --> 02:02:04,810 and we particularly want to pilot this product 1530 02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:08,339 and we would like to market it. Or so, 1531 02:02:08,430 --> 02:02:12,740 so there's a lot of proactive involvement that 1532 02:02:12,870 --> 02:02:16,549 accelerates the whole process because people are so wedded to it emotionally. 1533 02:02:16,790 --> 02:02:20,160 -- So -- you, so through your network of almost, 1534 02:02:20,229 --> 02:02:24,220 uh, the good guys, I would say in terms of . 1535 02:02:24,839 --> 02:02:33,600 You can put them all together and help. Link up via your portfolio companies and through your contacts in 1536 02:02:34,160 --> 02:02:38,680 whether it's even in uh the the government are you speaking to people in government as well, 1537 02:02:38,720 --> 02:02:42,149 yeah, all that you can actually add quite a lot of value 1538 02:02:42,439 --> 02:02:46,129 as opposed to just a pure investment play. Yeah, 1539 02:02:46,169 --> 02:02:49,259 it's it's the joy of what we do is that you can really 1540 02:02:49,450 --> 02:02:54,819 help companies to problem solve. And you've like uh worked with BlackRock previously. 1541 02:02:54,930 --> 02:02:58,629 I mean how do you feel about the change into this space? 1542 02:02:58,689 --> 02:03:03,009 I mean, when you're still doing the same thing, fundraising, how, how does that feel different? 1543 02:03:03,970 --> 02:03:09,189 I mean, I suppose that was a long time ago, but I mean, I, I got into this space because I got a bad gut 1544 02:03:09,399 --> 02:03:13,870 and I went to see 8 gastroenterologists over the period of about 5 years, 1545 02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:17,629 and none of them asked me about 1546 02:03:17,879 --> 02:03:22,509 how I was living my life. There was very little direction around what I should be eating, 1547 02:03:22,720 --> 02:03:25,799 you know, in their eyes, dairy, wheats, 1548 02:03:25,919 --> 02:03:31,080 ultra processed food. There was not enough data to say that it was necessarily bad for me. 1549 02:03:31,709 --> 02:03:35,089 And in fact it's even recommended, isn't it, by the government 1550 02:03:35,350 --> 02:03:40,470 to as part of the food pyramid they recommend, right? -- It's -- quite a funny South Park episode when 1551 02:03:40,660 --> 02:03:44,310 Eric Cartman discovers that if they put the food pyramid upside down, 1552 02:03:44,379 --> 02:03:48,259 it will solve America's obesity problem. uh, 1553 02:03:48,379 --> 02:03:52,850 and whether or not I can't remember what the American food pyramid looks like, but there's definitely some sense there 1554 02:03:54,319 --> 02:03:57,919 But I suppose I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, 1555 02:03:57,959 --> 02:04:05,870 which is a sliding scale towards Crohn's. It's it's chronic and it's in the British medical community at least 8 years ago, 1556 02:04:06,200 --> 02:04:09,240 there was no way of stopping that evolution. 1557 02:04:10,069 --> 02:04:13,120 And I went down the rabbit hole of 1558 02:04:13,850 --> 02:04:19,160 trying to work out how to solve and cure this. It became very clear that a lot of eastern medicine has been curing 1559 02:04:19,839 --> 02:04:24,799 essentially polyps in your ilium, which is the final chamber of your large intestine before it goes into your small intestine, 1560 02:04:26,450 --> 02:04:30,330 Uh, for, for, for centuries via what you eat, 1561 02:04:30,410 --> 02:04:33,490 by the provenance of the food you eat, essentially how healthy is the food that you're eating, 1562 02:04:33,529 --> 02:04:39,160 what was the health of the soil that that food came from. And trying to obviously cut out as much sugar as possible 1563 02:04:39,529 --> 02:04:43,520 and trying to around all of that holistically, make sure that you were 1564 02:04:44,100 --> 02:04:48,799 satiating yourself with healthy relationships. Exercising, 1565 02:04:49,339 --> 02:04:52,779 you know, I, I'm sort of fairly fanatic. I need to do a lot of exercise, 1566 02:04:53,910 --> 02:04:58,500 and, and, you know, fulfilling your life in terms of other joys 1567 02:04:58,850 --> 02:05:02,799 and it became very clear that this was, 1568 02:05:02,870 --> 02:05:06,169 uh, where I wanted to dedicate my time. 1569 02:05:06,350 --> 02:05:10,339 I was working, I've been in a Asian and Japanese hedge fund for 9 years. 1570 02:05:10,629 --> 02:05:13,950 I'd invested in a few early stage companies, PA, 1571 02:05:14,069 --> 02:05:18,689 and so I decided to set up a an advisory firm that would look at 1572 02:05:18,979 --> 02:05:24,529 sustainable food and farming early stage and try and work out whether we could 1573 02:05:24,939 --> 02:05:27,939 a. Set up a team that 1574 02:05:28,339 --> 02:05:31,339 could look at investing proprietorly into the space, 1575 02:05:31,500 --> 02:05:35,310 whether the market was big enough, whether we

could get access to the leading companies, 1576 02:05:35,540 --> 02:05:40,509 whether we could add value significantly to those, and whether we could get to know the leading investors in the space globally, 1577 02:05:40,740 --> 02:05:44,450 and that became very, very positive very, very quickly. 1578 02:05:44,819 --> 02:05:50,100 And timing was obviously was fortuitous. And so Simon and I were. 1579 02:05:50,720 --> 02:05:55,430 Introduced by about 8 different people within about 6 months of starting that 1580 02:05:55,560 --> 02:05:59,640 and you know, my wife thought I was having an affair because I come home late 1581 02:05:59,640 --> 02:06:05,790 having spent an hour and a half on the phone to this one, and it just we had matching very complementary 1582 02:06:06,240 --> 02:06:09,839 skill sets and yeah, cos your background was already impact investing, 1583 02:06:09,919 --> 02:06:13,520 so you're already in the space, right? Yeah, -- you 15 -- years in impact, 1584 02:06:13,600 --> 02:06:17,109 early stage impact investing. And that was more genuine and then you, 1585 02:06:17,189 --> 02:06:20,299 this is, then you decide to focus on the food system 1586 02:06:20,709 --> 02:06:24,089 together. Yeah, but, but, but, you know, as, 1587 02:06:24,149 --> 02:06:27,669 as Chris has described, very personal, it's, it's also deeply personal to me. 1588 02:06:27,830 --> 02:06:30,950 I, I grew up with biodynamic, organic. 1589 02:06:32,209 --> 02:06:35,709 horticulture as my family's passion and obsession, 1590 02:06:35,819 --> 02:06:40,490 so I've been growing vegetables and fruits and turning compost since I was 1591 02:06:40,689 --> 02:06:45,330 4 years old. So, you know, I entered the world as an adult and I was. 1592 02:06:46,479 --> 02:06:50,370 Sort of amazed at what was sort of going, I, I'd never liked the food system, 1593 02:06:50,899 --> 02:06:54,169 and also within impact investing where I did a lot of 1594 02:06:54,700 --> 02:07:01,209 work around renewable energy and battery storage technologies in the early days and affordable housing and 1595 02:07:01,620 --> 02:07:05,379 sustainable products, alternatives to plastics, 1596 02:07:05,500 --> 02:07:09,660 you know, you name it, I, I've done some work on one of the SGGs or some 1597 02:07:10,379 --> 02:07:15,560 worked with some pretty interesting startups and investors. But generally speaking, 1598 02:07:16,330 --> 02:07:21,350 investors have been Sort of illiterate or tone deaf when it comes to ecology 1599 02:07:21,919 --> 02:07:25,990 and nature. and when I got out of that world. 1600 02:07:26,870 --> 02:07:32,899 You know, I was, I was looking for uh a soul that was travelling in a similar direction and, 1601 02:07:32,930 --> 02:07:36,140 and you know, Chris and I share that passion of, 1602 02:07:36,310 --> 02:07:41,470 you know, putting a positive vision of the future state of our natural 1603 02:07:41,470 --> 02:07:45,799 world and humanity within it as the North Star. Perfect. 1604 02:07:45,990 --> 02:07:53,379 I think that's a good note to end on. I think I commend you too for your mission and I support you fully. 1605 02:07:53,669 --> 02:07:57,939 And uh thanks for joining me here today and sharing your 1606 02:07:58,509 --> 02:08:05,370 vast fountain of knowledge with the listeners. Thanks Darius, really appreciate it, Darius, thanks a lot.