Formerly on the Apple design prototype team that brought us, among other things, the Pencil, and the Siri experience team that put voices in our cars and televisions, Linda Dong and Lia Napolitano join Guy and Rene in a chat recorded right after WWDC 2016 in June… but saved as a special holiday gift for us all now. Grab a beverage and hit play!
United States


00:00:00you guys want to do like a like a show or you want to just have a couple of drinks and chair different it really not why don't you guys introduce yourself you are and we actually both intern that Apple together we were actually roommates while we were in turn and so I was a part of the eye movie if I don't have a really long time and yeah it was when I was interning not the coolest fight back she's really was really fun I started out working actually designing portals that to be implemented in Flash believe it or not and
00:00:59and then other things are not that bad ass and somehow that got me a job at awful so employment there and and then I work with with UFC little ducks team working on like internal and Retail apps and then I moved on to working on Siri for cartoon rap
00:01:26more organization so are very super long human interface devices prototyping design team
00:01:46which are basically boils down to like me being out of her typing team and we envisions like very you know futuristic Concepts and experimental user interfaces a lot of conceptual work so everything we design had a hardware component he went but we were doing a lot of be you know like how that Hardware integrates with so where am I what are user interface is like
00:02:13okay and so little decide to go stale into kind of what you were doing from it sounded like you were coming more from the southwest side I mean we're going on Siri I said designer within an engineering organization and I. Was super interesting very very to software and of my time working on Siri I was working on Apple TV and I other Hardware experiences I was working on home kits and Carr play for a bit so it's like when I think you know where are you we'll change an experience or think about experience to be on but it. Said we were not like driving or experimenting Hands-On with Hardware as much we were using Hardware the jumping-off point for
00:03:21going back with let's rewind a little bit how do you get interested in these two set of aspects of design
00:03:28I'll go so I will forever as like a young child using a Compaq running you know like whatever
00:03:44chilling with it was a good game too bad actually I'm going to school but my mom was doing a bunch of there is not what it is today so I was always interested in computers I went to school thinking I would study international relations and and I really hope so I might Focus while studying yes became the focus on human computer interaction and I wound up just getting really into where and when and the skills picked up and he let you and your experience job at an internal stuff kind of weird Opera technology
00:04:44C murders that made Siri that's really exciting that
00:04:48but it's the way that is super interesting you say math class drag you into computer science and then you ended up in a joke I really don't want to say that the more Humane side like human interaction my goal once I realized I love programming was to do a double major and see you are in computer science and it just happened that there is this new interdisciplinary program at my school called me and I got program I could kind of do both of those things do some independent studies Ryobi interest came together and then I guess except for political science and law requiring
00:05:53turn off to give me fast me when was it's like mid-to-late 90s kind of thing I was on trial and arguing with people you can do anything and argue all the time so what happened show
00:06:21the timeline we've been turned it all together in 2009 and that was right before my senior year is there before it was your college alright yeah I was so what's your
00:06:42it started coming up story like it like how did you get engaged this kind of stuff and I'm kind of made her way into the humanity is I actually was very much part of the humidity so I was doing oil painting at the time you know I really love Practical Art like I didn't know what the hell it was called that has no that was called design but I was like I really wish that like to be practical and kept saying that and then a professor came to me one day and was like you know that there is an entire industry for this and it's called design and so I was very upset with myself for not understanding that earlier I apply for divine school I went to an industrial design major so that's kind of where that Hardware background came from like I was very much interested in
00:07:42physical products and how they interact with the world but of course like that was during a time just being my 2007 that was during a time when all of like a hardware guy was being released I had a screen comes on it and I found myself very interested of what happens on the screen in addition to what happens the physical space which is kind of what got me into in fractions
00:08:08did you have a hard time making the leap from from drawing to actual graphic design because
00:08:18for me like I grew up drawing and a Nina superheroes
00:08:28but when you take your graphics design koizora like an architecture course like that's not it's a technical drawing is very different like it's night and day to actually drawing right we've had a hard week he squares and protractors know it's something totally different like the same similar elements but there's a Precision that isn't
00:08:53wanted or needed it or even like but there's a huge difference between something like that and something like illustration and then going into a more technical feel like industrial design where the purpose of a drawing is to communicate an idea or to get you know like sort of buying for an idea by making it exciting looking and like and you realize that like when you see drawings like that it's it's a very learned thing like you learn how to make something look like of the future and so because it is very different mindsets right
00:09:54working towards communicating hot it in a way that it was like you're telling the story of this object through drawing like you're telling like how to use as object how it fits into scenarios it's very much like storyboarding like Mesa storyboard of the movie like that's what you're doing an industrial design drawing is your you're telling the story through drawings of this physical product and maybe manager narrative so that someone buys at and decides to participate or manufacturer it so it's a whole different story
00:10:41how do you compare comic books to a picture or like any in a movie storyboarding system
00:10:51storyboard is clearly Garrett Inn in towards at directing a film or like dressing shots which means a lot about like the way things are in the way that you put a camera all of that kind of stuff but at the same time there's a creative element to it right like I said what's the difference from your perspective you know where the comic bug you're you're trying to this is hard for me cuz I don't read that many, but it's at there's a World building in comic books that like you're saying this is the world that exist and this is my product that lives in that world and this is a story that I product tells you
00:11:51about how people interact with like it or with other people and I think that's like a lot of the similar
00:12:00the similarities between that and ID or the object story has a beginning point I actually don't know if I see that I mean maybe a key difference is just the the character development is not as much the focus it's like it's just about the object and its use and almost creating properties of that object and scenes that show that objects character Warehouse in comic books it's more scenes that show the character of the people or character development and I think that might be a bit of a difference when you're looking at like this storyboarding of the context of use for an object is that how the object evolved in suits different contacts as opposed to have a person of all so it seems really nice
00:13:00you're so gorgeous it's so cool it should be able to look at something from a distance and see that needs frame is very meticulously Illustrated I was conveying something but then to take a step back and look at the whole and say this is what it's about that deliver bowl is being done a hyena Fidelity that it feels like a thing just like a comic book is obviously I tend to agree which is where I'm like trying to honestly on the line between the two because I think there's significant anyone but like the story that you know that your neighbor film comic book which is Renee says it's like the final
00:13:49the color telling a story which a lot of storyboards don't actually include the extra color washes right there just like roughouts of like how the characters going to be standing in my life seen some troyboi Cermak North by Northwest would like the plane coming down and it's all I mean but it's not telling the narrative in terms of color and colour itself like establishes such a like Ambiance that you really can't get like a black and white drawing too and you know if we're going to like kind of Segway this back into more like traditional interface design I think like it's yeah I'm going like you see that when you're developing a cohesive like operating
00:14:49just like I don't know how much I can say about this but I can say that like when I was 7 14 out like one of the biggest things was like they hired on this color specialist too kind of analyze like all of the colors that were utilizing the entire system and see if we can like make that into a kind of a cushy said like organized narrative and I thought that was extremely interesting. I think my cover that in his WC talk that you explain the design language in philosophy and color grouping I thought was fascinating
00:15:25allow link to the a link to the dump. Talk I think it still online is his iOS 7 design we talked about I don't mean to Corner
00:15:41what colors are component interface and human interaction is clearly a big
00:15:47what I find really exciting about our field is it is not sufficient to only do one thing like it I think you know if we were to take just interaction design purely it's a bit about what can do the things you do and how does it do it and how did like and it starts at how does that feel or is inspired by some principles are hustling should feel but then I can usually designed is tasked with like the real emotional Timber of the experience and then the actual software is responsible for being really really on top of how the things should work what informs how it works out of fact like not even talk to level but just like this underlying level and if one of those pieces missing you may have an emotionally resonant experience that doesn't work or an experience that works really well but doesn't move you and I think
00:16:47I'm cool and challenging I agree to Siri
00:16:58so you can just say you don't answer but it wouldn't want to ask the question did you like the ways
00:17:14like that but they do look great I got to say because you just talk to your phone and it does everything but I don't know that's not true at all I mean until / if only voice would be unreliable 100% of the time like how do you dress an ambiguity in what is it effectively it is very well defined face right like totally I think there were two maybe two questions the first one was how does you know Visual and interaction and software design I'll come together with Siri and a lot of the work that I would drink or Siri was very much in the like
00:18:10how should this work why does it work that way west specify that let's lay it out what are the rules and how does that appear to user on a kind of high-level so for example working on Apple TV you would be like how much information should we display and why why are we doing that how much is a screen should we take up contacts if you use someone's watching TV maybe you should take up less space in that case then we might feel comfortable taking out if someone just staring at you are and so those are the kinds of questions that I would ask and then put together some forms around that but when it came time to really think about the way that would make someone feel first of all there was a team thinking about the coherent OS visual system and so obviously they were the right people to take this framework and these layouts and why are grams and say this is this is the final final polish and then there was also the genius motion designer that was working on the way
00:19:10in concert with a genius engineer who was working on making that function in the system and so sorry I was really interesting to work on because I said individual may not be as obvious and in fact that wasn't the final polish was not had my preoccupation but it required really beautiful artistic work to sell the idea. There's also the dialogue with everything is beautiful and artistic you know the personality of Siri is this layer that you don't it's kind of visuals in the waves colorful and exciting but that's with other layer that you get to play with I think as much as
00:20:01people like to make fun of Siri they're making fun of Siri the character and a lot of that is because the visual and face is so minimal
00:20:14Billiards just Bare Bones like now you're talking to somebody who is a robot they want to help you the kind of wisecrack in and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't we also said in one of the sessions that they put more visual interface up when they think you're actually looking at the phone and when you're saying Hey Siri from a day or so I hate comments from a distance they downscaled visuals cuz they don't assume you're looking at it seems really well thought-out actually what I was going through and saying what are all the things that Siri says and then if you're in a car do all of those things work and for the longest time if you got Safari results Missouri the base year it is and it was it was completely unacceptable so we had to kind of go through each of these experiences and say like what is the likelihood that you're looking at a screen what is the likelihood that you're looking at it but you can't touch your screen and that you realize that boys can
00:21:14is is not perfect voice isn't great like we cannot read all of the web results in a perfect book summarized way or the way you like it know it we don't know how much time you have on your hands and visuals are great couple mad at you know I think Siri is at its best when it is beautiful and resident and has personality but also it helps you get your stuff and more quickly than rifling through a lot of people I know things change when the car was like if you being interacted with carplay
00:21:44yeah it goes too much more you know we're both answers is not saying you should look at your phone right now because
00:21:57did you work on that on the car play stuff I thought it was I'm pretty sure starcasm Tony Stark like Iron Man style
00:22:17I don't think that's impossible I think I have
00:22:20pretty accurate I was going to just back from there and ask Linda what how do you define prototyping if someone isn't familiar with what that is in a in a software Hardware sort of a contact I would say
00:22:35prototyping is answering all the questions that you wouldn't be able to answer in a static comp or a visual when you have questions that are unanswered from just making a screen whether that be like a simple animation or what the interaction looks like a prototype is there as a fool to kind of test out exactly what that interactions feels like when it's on your device without you having to worry about like technical constraints or like what the Coke can do at the moment it's just simply like the purest form of the interaction and how like that feels with a user on a device itself Western Dental last year on controlling a toaster and they kept running back and forth how they made that that's one of stuff works
00:23:31yeah I got a part of that of that talk I was the one that was the predecessor to it where we were just talking about iOS prototyping is hiding behind the couch. So that you believe that this interact this is the interaction that you would have if you were to use this prototype in the real world that can help you feel the happy past so that I can get everybody on board to say okay we need to make the not terrible like it's a really convenient way of saying this is the best of the future yes no expression that is the best expression yeah
00:24:27if the happy Pasto it it sells what you're trying to do and at the same time you use it to test out whether the thing that you wanted to do was the correct way at the end of the day so it's getting rid of those thousand nose and getting closer to the s
00:24:45sorry why you say famous saying you was $1,000 for every yes and can put a typing get rid of a bunch of those nose for you before so you can get closer to that yes
00:24:58cheap path balances Google exactly like was it like I would like a red team kind of thing we're giving any prototype you were going to be like no just sucks because he was why was it more of a we were the Thousand yeses behind before you make the one now so I was all about our our team was about saying yes to anything saying we have an open mind to everything that could be and is a possibility in her future reality and testing out. Space so are our whole entire goal was if you had an idea like to the apple pencil if you have an idea of how to draw
00:25:57you know we would explore that entire space of like using her stylist using her finger what is it do what is the ancient what does what does it even mean to erase our team was the one to explore that Holistics face and say this is the realm of possibilities here is the story behind that made your judgements about it you know like there are a million different ways to go working a show all of them very equally and you can make a determination on whether like one path is better than the other and of course we all have our opinions at the time of like what the best way to do it was but at the same time like we were we were there to keep an open mind before everyone else decided to like coming and staying with no no no you can't do that and like this isn't the right way of doing it but we were at we were the ones to have an open mind about every single possibility
00:26:57wasn't about like it wasn't clearly we're trying all the things and seeing where it lands everything that I saw him out of your team was done with such at like such a diligent and high-quality even knowing that it was probably going to line up on The Cutting Room floor right like I just saw somebody beautiful things that were done because the exploration was absolutely worthy and it was kind of the ethos of the team but it wasn't just about like lets you know do some diligence and then realize it's wrong and move on everything that I saw come out of your team this beautiful like very angry that I wasn't in the paper you don't like so I was going through things that were being shown but what I love was that I don't think many places tablet so I can really hard questions and exploring about high enough to delity that they can give them to other people to have a really educated conversation
00:27:57always say we don't think we should do this it and some people think they're just being mean or or cruel or they're just being stupid but anything that's worth trying they probably try it and they're doing it from informed opinion it's not that they're just deciding not to do it is that they tried you a thousand persons at Linda's Maiden decided mean we're not doing this one right now is an informed decision I think you helped him get to
00:28:19communicates the outside world to because if you don't you don't want to say that you don't want to say like with forced touch like we explored the entirety of this is like all the amazing things you can do with it like you want people to come and discover that stuff on their own and unfortunately it like it it's a difficult thing to communicate because apples is secretive and we only have those Communications like during WW2 Ricci or like you know like by Annual fees and fusions about like the fact that you know we did do these expirations and this was the best solution we just you know we kind of just it just looks like we came up with this all on our own so much work who played
00:29:09that's one thing I want to ask
00:29:14is it take a pencil I know you work on
00:29:21that's Hardware in Edison New Device is hardware and that it needs to ship in the iPads support it and it is software in the iPads that need to be able to communicate and get the Precision data what does it look like when you trying to work in such a top-to-bottom combined team
00:29:46it's a lot of collaboration that people don't expect out of somewhere that you know people have heard like apples very siloed like that I seem to break like at least three or four walls and Play Imaginary Apple walls of the experience I had only buy movie was you know there was a lot of Crossing collaboration so like every single day was we would meet with hardware and then we would meet with ID and meet with a design and all of those teams would kind of come together constantly and in all of these Explorations so like
00:30:35like what it was really interesting about that project was it was it was constantly to dialogue about like the hard work and strains with like all of the future possibilities of like shells so we could draw with this like beautiful idea and it was a lot of cross collaboration that I hadn't seen it in other projects that I worked on so you taking feedback I mean I imagine how fast the hardware guys can track the pencil
00:31:07little bit feedback interior design through software and then ultimately to the to the pencil then yeah I know for sure I mean
00:31:19like the it was constantly going from this kind of like very high-level discussion of like what we believe the pencil to be to talking with the server team in like they're talking about like the latency and like how we calculate force and what are the different sensors that we're going to integrate into this piece of hardware and I thought that came together really really well within the process where every single person was talking with each other and like the protecting team became because we were like the liaison between hardware and design we kind of like intersected that area really really well so yeah I honestly think
00:32:05with all the drinking but little bit no I think the pencil is an epitome use Apple's accomplishments like what they can do I manage to use it but it before it got out like at the shop for the type and type it like the depression it's wow it works incredible just like 15 minutes playing with it and I was like I was amazed structure any and and it's amazing because
00:32:59the company is not set up to convict those walls but when it needs dude can sort of integrate in a in a very vertical way
00:33:13we had a good experience or was it like at I got it
00:33:17no it was it was probably like the most streamline experience I've ever had at the company actually was where everyone was incredibly on board with the product and like Hardware was working just as fast as Hopper was and it was like this beautiful Harmony of like you know making sure that the sensor is always had a reason for existing and and and then we're talking about like oh well like how to draw how was it fluid it was always backed up by that technical component where was like okay we got to make sure that the latency is perfect in order to create that Sensation that you're actually drawing and I think those to blend in so well together where I was just I was blown away by the prototypes like even like years before end up shipping like it was just such a wonderful thing almost on tablets for a decade and
00:34:17I went to the I went to the apple pencil event and they let me pass me one and I got to use it and there was no Gap there was no little reticule falling after you I tried to confuse it by going quickly and it was intelligent enough to keep up and it actually felt like you were drawing on something not that you were driving through layers and layers of want but then you realize like how much effort it takes on the technical side of it to make something like that happened everyone respected that I got there are a lot of places where I was just a lot of environment for you might say yeah it should feel really X yeah this is what we can do and there any being in bed within an organization I saw those conversations where are engineering team was very honestly like no this is all we can do
00:35:17and I appreciated that we are design team and external design teams were able to question that and that would be respected by The Inheritance
00:35:29there are some things that are fixed like in the case of Siri voice recognition being perfect I'm not holding my breath Lake really hard problem and I appreciate that apple is one of those places where I. Being idiom or fixed constraint doesn't mean that we can't continue questioning it and can't wait to see what we want to be and forcing something that's great I never felt like it was forcing against the teams will everybody there isn't turn on building a product or experience that they will be really proud to show their grandkid when they pulled out her box of the problem but it but it's kind of exciting I felt like the the engineering team working with them is a question
00:36:23the answer was never like no never it's too hard it was and it would be frustrating but good come in this direction or like this is way to Monumental for this. Of time but we agree that that would be the most amazing experience or how do we lay groundwork for that right now and I respect that spirit and I don't think that a lot of places and Powerless. We're working towards the series pencil but I'll take us awhile to get there what want one thing I know is it the the input Loop
00:37:06we're at the pencil events had to be changed in the the pencil is sampled way later in the Run Loop
00:37:15in order to provide the the minimum manners flag
00:37:22like they they went out of the way to
00:37:26to fix up the lag on the pencil
00:37:29which like not a little bit out of the way it went way out of the way but anyway so what are you guys working on that
00:37:41we ruin similar thing we are actually a little bit like cuz you went you left a big company and now you're sort of charting your own path what is that like
00:38:01we we both did actually we left that we less Apple around the same time and both of us have been trying to kind of figure out a way to make the print on the world while Contracting and then kind of thinking about independent project as well did you just want to break that you want at you would you want to try doing something on a smaller scale or the way I felt was I okay so being a millennial and their energy and therefore a jerk who doesn't appreciate the value of hard labor in an apple for about 5 or 6 years and I wasn't convinced that I I was insecure about being a company man like I was very capable of doing and I was working with and I have not found somewhere that is working on harder problems on so many hard problems at him in the same scale
00:38:58I buy I felt like I wanted to see the world and experience new things and would you consider going to other teams and one person I was talking to you I was really trying to talk me into joining their team I said hey
00:39:21I will say that there is one good reason to leave apple and it is that you do not want to be at Apple anymore that is kind of the only good reason to leave and I looked in word in the bed you know I kind of just want to not be at Apple and it's not any slight on the company if anything I adore it more than ever not being there but I feel like I just want to try something new and with new people on new problems and find out if I actually had acquired in the extra cheese and then try to use it and building skills that that was the motivation really was I wanted to try something new I didn't know what I could do outside of apple and I wanted to find out because if they think you're an All-Star. Try to find a fit for you and another day don't want to lose you from their team but if they have to lose you from their team they like to get you on another team and if they really have to lose you they're like well if you come back within 2 years like go to your room Springer and if you come back within 2 years will like what will take you back and put you on something awesome so it seems like a good about like nurturing the talent
00:40:21yeah I mean I would say that the answer to that is yes I think any company it's it's really hard to even possible to track who feels like they need and how do you make them feel valued in like what is the length that you will go to keep someone when you have a great brand and so many intelligent people already like I don't think that Apple makes their first order of business keeping you around like I know some companies in the valley and like yes if you feel like it might be we want you to come back and if you don't we'll be fine so I didn't feel like any company talent development and retention is really hard I think that they care about the people at even if it's also hard for him to do
00:41:17how how would you go I know I mean I agree with you on a lot of points
00:41:28unfortunately for me what kind of happened was that they're there you know there was like a diversity issue that we see and the rest of the industry that really affected me during my time there and because it wasn't handled in a suitable matter while I was an employee I kind of decided like alongside other things I like to do my own thing and like Dean Martin the games industry I did feel that pressure of not feeling extremely supportive because you're right like apple apple has a million smart people around and you know like what's the loss of like one smart person but like unfortunately for me like that happened to me at the time and it was because of their diversity issues and I I just decided that it was not the healthiest environment for you know my current state and so I decided to leave at that point
00:42:28a very unfortunate story and it's a story that it sucks being like one more statistic but if it's something that I had to do
00:42:41it's what so did diversity issues because you left handed is that it just going to guess that's
00:42:57actually unfortunately I'm sorry to hear that
00:43:02yeah I'm sorry too I mean like you see all these companies like they like they've all release their kind of diversity number is a throughout the year is and you're realizing that like Twitter and apple like they they release their numbers and they say that they're going to take the steps to kind of move that forward move the dial forward but you know as evidenced by like by the retention numbers it's not necessarily the case hiring two candidates is very different exactly turn on a diversity initiative hiring students from all women's colleges in Wellesley College normally I would recruit at MIT and Harvard if they were in our neck of the woods and it just so happens this one year
00:44:02came and visited us and I was actually because a professor at school that was a college and all women's college had been visiting Apple's campus he brought his all women like all black all women's robotics skin for a competition out there and it was actually on Steve's request that he took time off and help them with recruiting for more diverse people it was awesome I would say that we were friends with like 90% of the company that and so many like everybody for my classes during really impressive things
00:44:44two people are still at Apple two of them yes out of a group of like I want to take 30 or 40 + extremely like Tina and like we're still very close retention retention is a hard problem and I don't think that I think that is pretty hard I work. I actually throw at Apple we had a group called I specifically focusing on was to put on eye of this is like my baby but to put on female engineers at Apple could speak about their time to work at Apple anything that you know would say she discussed internally and we gave him the stage. The iPod
00:45:44town hall and that we would like to fill up these These are friends with like actually it was for everyone and I was awesome it was a Chinese saves you go to talk about your work because when you especially when you are a diverse like someone who really needs to know that your work is value yeah and you are not allowed to go outside the company for that validation it was just one attempt to try to increase retention of these people who contribute so much and a really not know there was really interesting to see her and from some of the people we would host going from being another person in the works for is completely unknown having been there for you know like 20 or more years to being kind of celebrity on but I think that's one effort but it's a really insignificant ever compared to how much work needs to be done to retain really talented people who are not like a huge amount of you're really talented
00:46:44so that mean I've been saying for years every tension is among apples
00:47:06well for a little bit but mean add someone Microsoft could too but and now they can't
00:47:17what could be done better to retain the talent or or to encourage more internal diversity this is Super Hot Topic expected to discuss research on it but I want to address it
00:47:42what could have been done in order to make you feel more comfortable or two
00:47:49add multiply the effectiveness of these these talks in town hall that you were getting really minimizing after it's like a great way of getting people of platform scale especially well we you know want it and we all had full-time jobs and wanted to focus on being great of those jobs and also Focus each talk very clearly how many people in there and it was hard I think
00:48:31this is this isn't specific Chapel I think this is just for any company name someone who had to design a well-known company in the Bay Area and they were saying that when they joined the company they realize they were being paid very well we're not necessarily the most high output most famous and they kind of said like in in their 10-year they were really they wanted to focus on making his more fair and they recognize very easily and early that the people who are being paid last but offering more attended to be candidates who have been hired in the lower salary and US Senate candidate to word not white cyst Harriman so
00:49:31so I'm I think that the biggest thing you can do is actually care and be incentivize by your company until look at fairness and pay and in the opportunity and in promotions and I think that I the idea that the valley or any industry is highly meritocratic is loaded and is not quite high output people I saw her off of some of the most under recognized because it was like oh you just you just like our great as opposed to a while you're working really hard and oh my God at like 90% of your team is being paid 50% more than you what can we do to level that out I think there are some companies work really hard to do leveling my very wisely
00:50:31YouTube does a really good job of this or did it when I'm out for that place that the common go for it and say okay like what are these levels are doing I know at one point under it was just your post acquisition
00:51:31job and his priority to change that and I think to some extent I don't know about his popularity but I know that there probably aren't a lot of companies or exact for people are told hey you should definitely pay all the great people a lot more and all the people who got a Simplicity you should probably fire because I don't even know if that kind of thing exists if we go back to Apple I don't know if you get. Dr. Dre and then you got everybody else
00:52:15if she's a beauty she's a Beats pill that she forgot Sprite good for you saying that like I always wanted out of like a mentor to Apple like someone I could actually look confident that from so many women who do work and have worked out there like mentorship and having that like even like an idle too kind of look up to like where the idols that I can look at you all the time like Eddy cue I want to hear ya
00:53:05bunch of balloons
00:53:10My Utmost compliment of a woman is that she's a bitch and I feel like it's a freaking like Cheryl Thomas demoed at she is so cool I like want to be her when I grow up she text you a hustler and she's been out with her like bloody puss ears and I think there are really badass female like lady leaders that apple and a lot of it and she's amazing she is I think it's like DP of soccer operations she's so hardcore and there a lot of women but they also have been there for like 20 years and they are like three levels your grandpa's house and if you don't have one in your executive chain is not even like you feel comfortable reaching out and saying hey
00:54:10and Cheryl's on those people who would be open to that. Kind of Outreach but how would you know she is she's just so incredible is really what do you think about the Grace Hopper conference
00:54:24it's cool I'm a little bit of a
00:54:34yes and that people last year and it is just for the audience it is at that mean how would you describe it it's a collection of women and Technology with a bad computer scientist who wrote the first compiler and like came up with because there is no luck. All time the conference is for like for women in computer science as women in computer science I went a few people to Grace Hopper and what I was about it and I've heard even since leaving going to respond for some friends about meeting other women at Apple
00:55:34it's about like an opportunity to be in one space and have conversations that are both honoring the fact that you you were chosen to be there you're technically like you are one of your being there is being with knowledge that like you are hustling it apple and we are grateful that you're here and I'm going to invite you to some other Hustlers it just felt like a high-powered I didn't know that meant a lot of things really cool so does that short circuit what you were saying about like I don't really got cuz you're like seeing is all my hey who's VP of Wireless just chilling in the lobby of your hotel and you feel like you can go over and say oh my God you're my hero and she actually like this is a contactor that's not only invited but it's like
00:56:34event a year and it's at the same time like you know like it's a great safe space and discussions going back into an environment right now you're still the minority and you're still maybe like one of the only people who kind of thinking this way yeah and to bring that point to a bunch of people who might not understand that before and it is exactly like it's kind of like bring those lessons back like I was and say like things need to change and they come back and maybe say well you're the only one who saying that like maybe things don't need to change maybe it's just you and then that becomes very hard dialogue and and it's a dialogue that I know a bunch of people are going through with him the entire industry and it and it's kind of like how do you say
00:57:34apps that you can kind of like real educate all the members of your team about like what might be the good ways of organizing like how you do things are how you how you write grasshopper with a bunch of man because it's just tactical Tactical
00:58:06yeah I don't think it was like they should go to computer science programs like that would be terrible women anyway so this is what it's like sweet. That smarter that's all we doing contract work
00:58:53it's great it's super fun the people I don't know there is a really nice and you're so happy you're there I don't think it's like just really awesome like both of us being an Apple for so long and us not being able to talk about it like when you go into a contract gig and you got to kind of like being evangelist for the way we were at the way we prioritized the way we design and people are very excited about that like I think that's awesome and his position of power that we were never able to process I like different agencies I never work in an agency the four and right now I'm working with a team that's mostly as I do and I like when we were insurance I went and I went to a talk and told him I do is speaking and so I thought I was in my Hermione Granger say is I just was sucking up to
00:59:53a bunch of people entering new design thinking very holistic in for I'm a lot of the horse races now they do a bunch of there so cool you might know well like push trolleys a folding bicycle okay I now and stuff like that
01:00:53nice if not be first in the Palm Pilot like they did a bunch of stuff that was ahead of its time and Jerry will consider that maybe we look back on now and think of those poor say and the thought and consideration given to view these things they were examples Palm Pilot worker isn't you can compare to Apple phone from 15 years later but I do you really like sold themselves on like they became very same as for selling this idea of design singing so what's the downside is that people don't understand that being a designer does not mean
01:01:53some folks you do not do that like or not yeah that crap but benefits of design thinking as a philosophy is that you can go into a conversation and speak more of a common language when you're describing the result of your craft and I think that that is the plus side of design thinking so cool for me I always thought that I was missing out by never having worked in the agency but I also recognize that when you working agency work long hours like how do I learn to think this way and how do I meet some of the Fantastic people who's not even given that they weren't on my design team's at all and it's awesome I am I understanding that posted notes are are actually functional as I always thought they were a joke.
01:02:50open Azuka bom don't let anybody tell you any and I'm I'm benefiting so much from being exposed to other people's way of doing work and I am loving it I think the other big benefit of being India's just like meeting new people I apple is kind of a closing at work not many people do we use apple I mean a lot of my favorite people. People are still there and I'll be there for a while and so I can put some away work on those the whole leg seeing other people's point of view is so fascinating like I disagree with 90% of what I see
01:03:34if it's really interesting kind of getting that perspective and like like a huge reason for why I quit was because I wanted to travel for a year and a big portion of that like not just because of the blood Millennial like I'm going to Legacy the work whatever was the idea that like technology fits into their lives and like what what they do with their their everyday lives which I found absolutely fascinating that I can hopefully bring back your text bubble and maybe this isn't the right way of thinking about it
01:04:16but yeah I just went in my purse work research trip ever iodine user research on Apple and like I occasionally and use data and research to make design decisions isn't it was awesome I was in Miami last week I got bitten by like three thousand Iquitos and I also talked to you all he's really interesting people about their pinpoint sister experiences and then went back to an Airbnb where me and shoe designer is so I really admire just like sat down and force yourself to think through things with so much rigor as a as a team and I always within groups try to be a lone wolf and more or less owning the design of a thing and occasionally having touch points from selling people on the fact that like I might have the right idea babe we're going to clobber of environment and doing research in the field it's all stuff that I know I would not be doing at Apple right now and it's just a different process neither is
01:05:16play better but it's so cool to have exposure to different people in different ways of doing work and also traveling is everything else Warehouse
01:05:32Montreal for example
01:05:38tell me about you guys are there I thought you guys were here Montrose pretty awesome people called but very clean up the booze so it's a beautiful relationship
01:06:12what's the future
01:06:15what do you what do you see happening in the next 10 years that they should have changes your perspective on the way that you design and develop call Jackson and solutions to the company so you working for our Focus house
01:06:36you can pour a glass of wine just pouring out of Siri
01:06:49UCS boats we can sing. It's a dumb question but I have Smart answers and I actually talked about this all the time like whether it's too dumb shit like you know we have an idea for VR dating app it was a really good idea. Let's let's hey you don't have to tell me if both so excited about putting for the future but also very hesitant to believe that something being futuristic also will make it good
01:07:48we saw with Google Glasses like oh my God I met a reality the future it's here how awesome you're not respecting my privacy I don't know if you're still mean you're not like they're all of these really interesting social and cultural things that need to be overcome before we can evaluate whether or not a good idea and I going to take something and free sample there's a lot of artificial intelligence oh my God oh my God I feel like we're exciting point where they're all these Nathan technologies that could work together in this really cool fancy way but we're also at a point where you see the society and culture
01:08:48there there a lot of interesting Turtles there an additional year at a point where the holders of the data that can create really beautiful experiences do not want to share it and then you also see the motors of the data have a huge amount of responsibility possibly to their customers working on Siri with a Niceville hamstrung by wanting to buy apple as principles I really respect and customers privacy in their eyes it was just like saying hey this isn't good enough or like hey this is what that we want the experience to be you guys away and he needs to be better hold a lot of weight so it is saying hey we can't we don't want this on our service really we don't want to possibly compromise our customers
01:09:48it isn't like one being artificial restriction in the other being that the nature of the thing that I do not believe that we will see really crazy experiences with Apple devices that would require day possibly compromise and so I think like a differential privacy was something that came up with somebody see you right like how can we be really Innovative about trying to distribute knowledge of things that we don't have it but you can have a beautiful experience and I think that I got is the route that Apple goes with that is we needed to be safe to dry weed what are my man I know I just want it I'm just out of the only reason
01:10:48a chapel people speak like that all the time machine about it I feel pretty Eve I was like like we as a collective people that I'm friends with were still there kind of fighting all that is very important customer isn't so I'm and then there's the other part of the nature of that company which is to not like you don't be kind of like having all of the cards and sharing them with others so that's the keys where it's like we have all these devices and services that are learning more about you and we can do other things but the incentives of companies to do
01:11:48that are not really there right now and so I don't know where will be in 10 years I want to say like
01:11:57and then like
01:11:58my this will know everything about that and will make me really happy and then I'll like look out onto the skyline and I'll see what time the sunsets going to happen and you know like I don't know how much as possible at combine with like when you consider your ocracy technology companies and their personal interest and then companies trying to either do the right thing by their customers or compromise that which is a bigger issue and society and culture ask Linda she's protecting it right now
01:12:39right now if you want to see what a pan the camera left you. The future under the table
01:12:48I haven't you got something you want to spill loves or like really I mean it's difficult because I really long time like that with my job was to kind of figure out like what does our future look like in the next 10 years and so obviously I can't really try to want to hint or try to speak to any of the things that Apple was trying to do in that field so I guess we have an army of Donald Trump's robots are very well.
01:13:28the trumpets
01:13:35is Zuckerberg would give him that billion dollars we have it right now. His creative life and then we can actually play fun day is like Steve was yes and your dad so Linda United States
01:14:21you don't have to answer for me like
01:14:35I would love to see more things in the future or completely disassociated with visuals and completely just as such a weather comes up with screens so I can attend up on that or battling each other for Domino's at some point I mean I like again and huge of like where I see the future headed was like we use screens of this kind of bandage as a as a stepping stone between us and reality and we did a really good job with that and I think there is already traffic kind of transcend that those types of interactions people are talking about that right now in terms of like a r or like
01:15:35technology is like whatever like they they can exist but but like the the theme of the entire thing is like how do we make sure that every single one of her everyday objects is extremely design for like the way that we can try for a situation and being like very contextually aware of like what we're doing and I'm sure that was the initial goal of like the Internet of Things movement and obviously The Internet of Things has turned into this kind of like I don't know when your head better than friends like it's it's a cyclical thing going to keep going back to it it's just going to get weird and I don't know like I I care about emotional lots of like creating emotional bond between you and like the world around you and answer that's why
01:16:35I resonate with chow video games are are treating you know like and interaction design right now because like they are creating that emotional tie between you and a physical object stream. Are you and user interface just isn't doing right now and I'm like that's why I want to get into that industry because I see them kind of Paving the way for like the future of how we interact with things birthday design for playing a game helps you to learn the rules of the system in a lot of ways
01:17:13it's hard to map back to
01:17:16you know I don't know using web browser like I don't know how that place back into it but yeah there I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned from the way that people naturally pick up games and internalize them as a kid growing up learning like
01:17:37like that was a game we discovered recently that both of us got into design and coding because we were really into me a pass and life when you realize Neopets yeah oh my God Patron a seed
01:17:58no answer when you realize that some of the games you play as kids doing what make like what make the four of us have this conversation right now is interesting like how can we agree that's why I'm still alive are you and David
01:18:37so I don't know if there's going back to chia-pet right now it's Landon hard my head is turning into a are you not a new thing yeah why does he act like I don't understand if anybody's going to give me off of my show it should be you guys totally breathing mechanism therapist and one of the first thing she does anyone recessions is teach breathing and the watch thing just Nails I mean it it's not exactly what it is but it is so close to it and I can do it on a scale that you know not everybody goes and learns about breathing learns about mindfulness and just putting that in an app to me as one of the miraculous things about the Apple watch like this.
01:19:37closing the stand things in the motivational things to me that you know it's it's a it's a noble Endeavor I'm super happy they did it pass military and bearings and and do things that like hell but it's not about the technology it's about helping us the world better not helping us in our faces are devices that are there a piece of the puzzle but I think they should just be serving
01:20:18are better are more grandiose interest about who we want to be and how we want to lose when I think about things like I'm not excited because I'm not excited only because like sweet cool future I'm really in like a concept car videos that are terrible I'm really excited because I think about the amount of parents who's been like 6 hours a day in their car shutting their kids between activities instead of actually in a moment to themselves I get excited because I think that technology at its best can I think the idea of creating more leisure time it's always the pursuit of like societies but machines
01:21:06controversial in and of itself but I think that there is when technology can do at its best is get out of the way and get things out of her way so that we can actually connect with people and have experiences that are very tangible and I don't know see how I do like Star Trek Vision it eliminates all the mundane things and it just lets you live a life of Discovery in Pursuit Ray just cover your Pursuit I think it is I mean is I mean their lofty goals and they sound like kind of a little bit pretentious but like I said I recognize it when you said I'm from New York and I there was that legislation so that it would be like all fast food workers pay $15 an hour or by I think it's maybe 2018-2020 and so I thought that was really awesome I thought it was great and then I recently saw a lot of people posting on the internet like this is what you do when you
01:22:06I think that we work is already paid $15 an hour and it was like machines taking orders right and so there's this issue of I don't want machines to take all of the work at were take all of the opportunities for like social and economic life Mobility but I would like for them to help all of us do our best work as opposed to work that is necessary to survive and I hate that sounds very idealistic but that's kind of what I'm excited about like can we maybe make cool futuristic things but not make them for their own states make them for our sake
01:22:42what's the theory that we spent all these years Bill been like all these years Building Technology out now I did wanted it like I said earlier I think it's remarkable
01:23:09or at least and dressing did on our computers and our phones we
01:23:15describe software in terms of Windows onto the data and the reality is like you don't want to be in a window you want to kind of walk to the door and have it ever looked a larger exploration of that and I don't necessarily mean that that means a r or VR or anything like that but
01:23:40integrating Intelligencer or just computers into everyday life seems like a while ago rather than simply seeing it through window or you know what happens to be on your phone or what Siri can pop up for you or you know whatever the next to her
01:24:03God help us like that the Google Glasses thing then to Windows to which we can interact with large World empathy right half the time we don't even know what the hell that means but it's it's this whole entire thing where like you're just living your life and Technology happens kind of your experience in the verses and I think that's like a really interesting considering Facebook or Twitter or anything like that that they are certainly technology companies but are they technology in terms of the way people think about them I don't think so I think people think about them
01:25:03the phone system structure how their utility and now and now we know how to do that and now we can take a step brother is optimistic by the future is a way that I can enable human endeavor is an optimistic Outlook the opposite is like judgement Day Terminator Matrix
01:25:34that I read somewhere and I / breathe on time because I don't remember where I read it or what it was but anybody who has worked on complex systems and artificial intelligence is not be worried about the computer takeover I mean I find computer is in ways that take over labor or that way you know people who actually need resources on my computer's do but would you mind computer turn over
01:26:09I'm not I'm not worried about you exactly I'm I'm not worried about computer dick over right now I'm not I'm not like I'm not I don't know setting off my dick or the dumbest idea I've ever heard of simulations anyway guy don't worry about it
01:26:40no I so dumb okay there's a time and place I think about morality let's just kind of like put that aside for a second and see like what good we can do with us and if the good doesn't outweigh the bad then obviously we won't go through with it being so terrified of like all of these like computer is Ranger material in case some kid hits his other kid with it like the cold fear base layer
01:27:18at least in the initial phases of design in art they was not be here but before we ship something
01:27:27we're doing and wired and I'm most beautiful title on the planet but I I don't know I couldn't do it yeah it is always coming but never arrive in I just like being like I don't know how many people are you not into the all right now will let so nobody gets hurt if you put me in a robot body and made me want to live forever I may just go crazy I'm pretty sure to go crazy
01:28:27actually excited for my avatar maxlife I like that but I really put me down before I heard people there A lot of fun I mean they're incredibly interesting environment and very different because in the vibe you're in a room moving around standing up you have your holding on to things so you have hand movement where the Oculus like you really you kind of more sit down or stand there in the world moves around to you just so you know a very different sort of orbital space and in just the contrast and it feels like that's where we were 10 years ago with smartphone it's the frontier in people are making mistakes and questioning things and doing really interesting work and that's where the exciting part of it because not all the questions are answered yet yeah don't get me wrong I am interested in beer in the air I'm over here again by you'll be hot
01:29:18I did see your videos are so funny looking like you Falls I just want to talk about this kind of I don't know what I actually wanted to do is I haven't done this is like fill myself try to do things I actually would want to do is be our with a huge heads up trapped in my face so for example like okay be alright that's cool what if I can stimulate working out with a trainer and be way less expensive like if I were to try to do mountain climbers of the thing shop my face I would like have neck pain and like it would fall my face and I lose $1,000 in the street like I feel like
01:30:18I don't know I love you and Steve but I totally the are internal external
01:30:37just wants a physical trainer
01:30:43is a 63 gymnast so why would I treat an easier is all I said I would like to point out that Leah is much more of an extrovert that I am oh you want to laugh in your like right now like the entire world is about sharing and let's share everything in Social and friends and everything for someone like me I need my private space I need some place I need a meditative Zone and like that's a VR it's an environment just for you it happened just by year that like if we could just spoke as an industry on just like what the private experiences and I have to be sexy time they could be like something else like the breathing on a watch like I think that's so powerful other than that
01:31:43play like the assumption that we always want to share things all the time and be social and that's like the end-all-be-all of yeah yeah right after your like you're like sitting on a log surrounded by toadstools and then like you're technically in this chat room or other people might sit down with you and I had that arrived while I was traveling to work and he was like yeah I was like sitting around on the future and it was kind of funny because he was really excited about this private world use in but didn't like the people showed up but like Austin is abstract enough that it still felt like an amazing magical thing that happens to actually playing pool with you and it's
01:32:43because you try to leave on the table and you fall down but otherwise it actually seems like you're in an international pool hall
01:32:54separating yourself from the world then the fact that you weren't having it with other people is interesting I haven't read that yet I've been going into the video rooms and there's nobody in them which is amazing it's like tell me what they know I use it much but I mean it's it's I'm connected to the video game world today
01:33:43it's second life and I'll tell you like people do what people do
01:33:50without without any constraints that is much less than never I have a family member who is I think it's amazing so many more children under 10 and yes I think I don't know when it looks like she's had some serious scarring insect
01:34:34great artist agrees first female snow days of like I was kind of sort of being anonymous and like still being real human being my child and I don't know a lot of great times on I write again just like weird friends and I don't know who they are to this day I like that like I think it's really cool that we're really interesting places to grow up because you are actually around all these people and you're getting into their their deepest thoughts and then you never really meet them and it was cool
01:35:35I'm super excited for people to be more honest again on the internet cuz right now in the living world living in like hashtag fomo time is Sunday the real stuff. Everything just feels like it has a shoulder followed by like a snap seed out of all of us
01:36:09I don't wake up looking this way
01:36:14I actually wake up looking this way I'm going to pass out on my desk yes but what do you mean by that
01:36:32so wait what do you see early days of the internet and how is that changed
01:36:38now for me okay for me the early days the internet were like
01:36:45Arrow I want to hear it
01:36:51was very much like blogger livejournal Danga where people were sharing their very true. It's about like real people on the internet because there wasn't as insane search Christian Laettner very real about who they were they still have like a level of anonymity were like we still have like weird usernames and like no photographs of us but at the same time we're talking about like very real topics and talking about them in a way that we weren't trying to like promoter self-image or do you miss that
01:37:44West because when your images became well-known the conversation can be created is that mandatory that everybody started saying oh I watched it with my friends and family that are real and I know they're born names but it means that I can't share anything I don't want them to see and like and also I think awareness of like okay so Facebook knows who I should tag in my photos before I tagged it's like okay is it a matter of time before any single image of me on the internet no matter how life would be identified as me and does that mean that I can't even share my most intimate self quiz like anybody if there's a digital Trace that's kind of looks like that it turns off that ability of the internet to connect us to people who are more like us than anybody proximate
01:38:44and I think we're going to let you know amazing hikes and takes amazing travel and it is the only time they form social coalescing into that person
01:39:12well that's good to hear
01:39:14while traveling and I was thinking all these photos and it was really weird to be thinking through what caption I would post them with and when I caught myself doing it I was like this is too important to you we are trying to project us thing right now as opposed to share something a hundred and I'm sure there are plenty of people on the internet who likes happened to share their authentic selves and just happens to be highly likeable and marketable but I just I don't know I don't want to have to be both like why
01:39:47because you getting jobs that way Weight Watchers share or why you're building in brand personal brand building like I said I don't know if you guys have experience of stuff for me like I like Twitter is extremely important to me like when I came back and I was a hot mess for my travels in Lake my break up that I went through I didn't know what the hell I was doing and I just reach out to Twitter like hey does anyone have any gigs like that was extremely meaningful to me and then the way that that was cultivated was because like I ran you know like it was like I don't want to say I'm being disingenuous on Twitter but it it's very mindful of what I tweet about and therefore like to have built up the best kind of like group of people who I talk to who would be able to help me in my time of need and I don't know what that shitty that's good like I don't know if that makes me a city person or that makes
01:40:47I don't know no I think that no I don't think that makes you shake a person at all
01:40:56your editorializing thank you your 20 feet it is magazine home and School Association where everyone goes and all the parents look perfect and everyone talks about their perfect lives does IRL
01:41:21Siri I'm going to fire by Apple and there was a guy going to wear Siri couldn't find Planned Parenthood and for me as a person who is obsessed with technology was really excited about Siri and also cares about people having access to health care I I think I remember I cheated something about it and I was like this is messed up and someone who worked at Apple who like he and I had chopper motorcycles while ago and me and was like hey you should take that down and it was like and you and you just thing as a friend he was like he was like you don't have to take it down but I think it would impact your career at Apple if you leave it's going to take it down and then maybe like 8 months later during the series team but it always occurred to me that you know he was wrong I mean maybe but then I have like
01:42:21phone calls about things on the Internet or like people being like hey somebody wrote you like somebody wrote your name and a list of Apple employees you should be following on Twitter like are you okay have you like has a certain your job in any way like I think that the reality is it's hard to give me lots feedback or if you could provide new laptop in the internet and it's very easy to judge someone on this like tiny nugget of inside and see how they think and so someone could have read that tweet from me and then like oh wow she looks like she doesn't understand how hard it is to develop software why would you ever hire this person and I think that ambiguity of interpretation is very possible when you're finding encapsulating 240 characters Lego people just tried it so much damn stuff on Twitter
01:43:21he has like plot armor yeah I don't think please.
01:43:34It wasn't ultimately Lake that's hard to defend if you're going to not
01:43:40how's it going to be mad at you for that I totally agree but I think that it's just since we are all afraid of our things being taken out of context and we should be because the internet is full of trolls it's dark and full of Terrors we then have to present a version of herself that it ourselves that is milk toast enough to know it'll take issue with it and I and I think that it's kind of sad because it prevents the opportunity for a really good conversation like that that person reach out and said why do you think that happened and then I had the opportunity to say that and then you could have said Well if you know each other and more if the place was not judgments and so you are supposed to be super positive
01:44:40not naturally that type of person likes
01:44:46I've made some Sly calls about 30 seconds and I don't like people either so I don't want to say it because I felt like I am a very critical person I can be a huge ass hole like there's a lot of more things that I dislike that I like and I used to be very very like pooping about that on the internet until like we are I got an email from the apple of a time when I was like going on this huge rant about like the iTune 10 logo icon what is going to kill me
01:45:36he's not listening he's at he's at Disneyland
01:45:45and it's it's
01:45:48you be like I just want to say what I want to say and I want people to not be offended by it and
01:45:58and I I have had to be a completely opposite person have you ever seen the movie Usual Suspects is who Kaiser so say yes and then at the end you will find out who close at Kaiser so say yes but then you don't know if the rest of the movie is a complete lie or not and it seems to me that that's that's sort of the modern model for the internet is it as soon as you know who somebody is suddenly because they have identity you can't believe anything they say anymore
01:46:27so the more real identity became the less real our conversations have to be, because we're all very protective once we think that were an unknown commodity I don't know I think that's just for you guy but I think that's the benefit of doubt it's extended more
01:46:58I have to meet then it is for the women certainly
01:47:04like I get to be a jerk
01:47:07and women don't
01:47:10and I can kind of just go with it and crack jokes and people like he's so funny but it's even if it's a bad joke it's not that funny
01:47:22Brazil women are kind of Trapped into this space where they need to be
01:47:29either super professional and very conservative in what they say or
01:47:36giggly and engaged in it in a way that's disarming to be controversial as opposed to getting to dip in and out maybe there's a triangle there where you land somewhere in the Triangle examples of that for my personal life one of them being like I was in a meeting this one time with like obviously a group full of men and I was just totally being myself not going out of the way to be an asshole just saying like hey you know I have you thought about designing this in a different way have you thought about using the technology and then in the in the middle of that meeting someone said you know you're being really Patty right now and I'm just like
01:48:29no one would ever say that to a man no one would ever say the words how do you for being a bitch right now and I could not getting any more controversial than any person in this room like you should not treat someone like that and another point was like I one day I woke up and I wrote a blogpost about like apple pencil vs. Wacom cintiq shut up straight post
01:49:29I didn't want any association with that and the my God the email that I got from that the personal email that they had sought out my personal email address they were a combination of just like misogynistic emails rape threats death threats for having an opinion on a leg you could not get more vanilla than mess and it and it all came back to like you're being such a bitch about like the way that you talk about these contracts and it blew my mind and I like it really took a toll on me like I was crying in the middle of like a conference because of this because if I could find a female's and I was getting and so I had to be supported by like all my friends through it I was like I'm never going to write something like this again my voice is silence like screw this never again won't do it at all and Link
01:50:29Uncle comfortable telling not be outside world like you don't feel comfortable saying that that is what happened to you because you feel like that puts you in less position and you playing like exactly and I just want to say it cuz it happened to me and if so if you want to reach lender you can reach her at 1 at Kickingbird Tom
01:51:12I promise you they were both with all of those men
01:51:17just send them there I'll have someone read them to us in rvr or if there was a getting printed out and put in the furnace and stats with
01:51:36the contributions of women being undervalued by the technical community at large I mean yes
01:51:49but if so and then I believe it is
01:51:55is there anything that you can think of to address it like what like what I mean makes you lose 80 lb I mean what's the question ultimately on the face of it but I mean what attracts you most like what's like this like one simple thing that people can do to it so to make it easier
01:52:18took sep contribution to the both of you and some women in general
01:52:25not many sizzix women cuz I don't know but yeah I would say amplifying voices were not yours is always a good thing right and I would say that there is a difference between grandstanding about how much you want women's voices to be heard and talking about those issues and just like retweeting women or like you know sharing women's content and attributed it to them I think I've seen a lot of people who is very good intentions will start of white night about things and be like oh my God that's horrible things happening and as much as I want you to know I want you to know that I'm the kind of person who cares about the horrible thing and I think that it's a hard position to put someone else in there
01:53:23like witches all Amplified hearing voices like I let you know I should probably the best way I can serve communities that are not mine is not by talking about how much we need to be served as like going out and volunteering and amplifying other people's voices and trying to when I'm referring someone for a job or for a conference or burn event thinking about people who are not for my immediate group and like and making an effort to do that not because of a favor but because you know that's like that is the tiny way I can contribute to offsetting society's ills
01:53:59that is how I try to think about it and I like to see other people who like when I see somebody amplifying another person's voice I think that is the cool thing and for me it's just fucking believing in what a person is trying to tell you like for me it's it's just like when I have an experience believe I actually had that experience so I'm not making it up
01:54:28when Santa started telling you that you should not just fall for Ramsey's trap listen to order is literally brought in the Cavalier like she saved everyone with the veil but you know what she wouldn't have told you she would have had to like go to Littlefinger Jon Snow just listen to such a diva she have the best experience of Ramsay Bolton so that's what I'm saying if someone says I know Ramsay Bolton just believe you can just go weirdly trippy
01:55:07where I think we're done with the sangria
01:55:15so when sangria show any final thoughts
01:55:32I don't know what are you guys up to I don't want to drive but I'm very happy that we did it we can ask him where to find them on the Internet yeah it's there a caddy underscore is is there a social network you like the point people towards
01:55:55Twitter or not. Don't give them your your IRC just give me your Twitter Twitter it is Leah naps l i a naps because I like to nap and also it's by my last name mine is boring leelin at Linda Dawn cuz you will not believe this is actually find my resignation letter with Mike hashtag dollar sign when the dog really
01:56:40that's hashtag worth it probably illegal
01:56:49surprise thank you both so much that was absolutely delightful

Transcribed by algorithms. Report Errata
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Guy English, Rene Ritchie, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.


Thank you for helping to keep the podcast database up to date.