The "Women in Industrial Design" will be on view this weekend, on Saturday, June 14, for one night only at Astro's design studio on 348 6th St, as part of San Francisco's design week festivities. Of course, today's guest, Ti Chang, only moonlights as the organizer of the show: By day, she's an industrial designer and the co-founder of Crave, a luxury sex toy company based in SF. We talk about her path to starting Crave and how she came to organize the exhibition, which, remember, you are going to this Saturday night at 6pm.
United States


00:00:00this is after school on core seventy seven I'm don lemon if you take away only one thing from this episode of after school I wanted to be this if you are going to be in San Francisco this Saturday June fourteenth you have to have to have to have
00:00:27to go to the women in industrial design show as far as its organizers can tell and this sounds crazy but true it's the first show at least several decades to be dedicated to the work of women industrial designers it's being held at Astros design studio on three forty
00:00:46eight six street part of San Francisco's design week festivities it's a one day only event running from six to ten PM on the night of the fourteenth tickets cost fifteen Bucks at the door they cover orders drinks commission and the cost of the nonprofit the women in industrial
00:01:05design show also happens to be run by today's guest the chain is an industrial designer and the co founder of crave a luxury sex toy company based in San Francisco we talk about her path to starting crave and how she came to organize the wind and dust was
00:01:22on show which remember you are going to go see the Saturday night at six stay tuned a couple shows ago I was talking with the Michael to two OO who's the head of design it sound United and we brought up that every couple of years a certain category
00:01:52gets really hot for industrial designers so look at one point staplers are really hot because I don't remember like Scott Wilson to that one out yet translucent swing line and then toothbrushes were a big deal for a little bit and non I think a really big one right
00:02:08now is Bluetooth speakers feel can fly at Evans got a blue to speak in a portfolio slowly and then the other category we brought up that's kind of having a moment right now is sex toys oh yeah in there so yeah there's some pretty big name designers of
00:02:25kind of found their way to %HESITATION designing some sex toys metallic Chris sat Yves Behar Eric Leon text Tom Dixon Dixon Marc Newson Michael young Michael young yeah and that's just a few right one and you yourself you have designed several sex toys now it white why do
00:02:47you think they've become so interesting for designers to work on I'm I think they've always been interesting to designers work on but unfortunately I think society and you know different cultures have just stayed stigmatized view about them so you hear about sometimes made famous designers designing them but
00:03:08it doesn't really as far as mainstream audience it doesn't really get picked up on or talked about like people like us we were in the know about design so that you know we know you know Michael young did this context did that %HESITATION but for the mainstream audiences
00:03:24only until I would say in the last five years that %HESITATION five there was a five seven years that %HESITATION sex toys have really become sort of this hot new thing that everyone started to go after and a big reason for that is well for one it's about
00:03:43time the woman and also as just you know up a consumer of just hideously design products it is just is just you know such relief that okay finally %HESITATION because of a few social cultural events for example I mean %HESITATION fifty shades of gray I don't know you've
00:04:03heard of the book sure sure okay everyone and like it's it's a players like I was on a plane and like three guys were reading it like right in front of me and I was like oh my gosh I mean it's a massive phenomenon so on this book
00:04:16me not for it's it's not because it's so you know it's not because it's great literature but because it tapped into a time when I think right now on the pulse of women in the society were really now more ready to talk about sexuality them before and so
00:04:34the book really struck a chord I think with an audience and because of that book is so many more things are starting to come out talking about BDSM or you know some bondage sex toys sacks you know threesomes me all these complicated things about sex and %HESITATION relationships
00:04:50around sex is just starting to bubble up to the top so now that you know you if you open up magazine will cosmos always had sacks sacks you know how to have great sex how to give great head or how to you know all this six or into
00:05:04topics but now you look at mainstream magazine %HESITATION us use me %HESITATION publications just New York times New York times covered our company and our product on just a couple years ago %HESITATION it's now you see more talk about sex toys in a lot of mainstream publications yeah
00:05:25so I mean how did you come to designing sex toys so I I one designers I think I I did I was not born bless knowing that this is exactly what I want to design so that was definitely not the case so throughout my career is it I
00:05:42put myself a lot of different situations in terms of the %HESITATION trying to design different products working in various capacities as a designer wet weather is freelance weather's for corporate what is for an agency to find out what is it about all these different aspects what really works
00:05:58for me personally and around the time when I was twenty eight you know going on thirty and I was starting to get this %HESITATION feeling that I I I'm really ready to do something more %HESITATION I've always worked for companies in the past on my first job out
00:06:16of school was designing hair brushes for goody afterwards I was headhunted should design bicycles for %HESITATION track bikes in Madison Wisconsin I knew nothing about bikes which may be perfect sort of %HESITATION and so through those different types of projects you know I learned that I I really
00:06:35number one really enjoyed designing products for women on that was just one area that always felt as designer that they were under service apart from fashion and accessories in in that world %HESITATION a lot of other areas I think women are very much under served and also I
00:06:52learned from my experiences that I enjoyed bringing a product to life which means not just ending at the ideation and the content is designed phase or the rendering phase %HESITATION but to actually bring it to life %HESITATION the mass production on the whole messy manufacturing and commercialization of
00:07:12something so with this you know knowing those two things %HESITATION I felt I wanted to kind of create my own brand my own line of products but I wasn't sure what that was yet and of the time I was living in Boston and I walked into a sex
00:07:28shop and I looked around and I was like oh my god it was like both the aha Anna no and yes moment like yeah know these things are so horrible and yes there's an opportunity here so %HESITATION Yasser that's kind of where %HESITATION yeah and how light it
00:07:47and if you ever walk into one it just it just feels like bad banner ads all over the place you know like it's just the worst I don't design it's like pink and purple and the most I would say %HESITATION crass animals based thinking yeah a lot when
00:08:04it comes to sex is like %HESITATION you note center **** so you know here's a phallic **** and this is we can he can get a black you can get it and you know what color you can get in and purple you get it it's just hideous %HESITATION
00:08:16so yes after that experience you know %HESITATION unfortunately is something that all women face across the country and in it you know around the world %HESITATION if you're thinking about sex toys in the last decade on that's basically what you had to choose from and it's not just
00:08:35walking into them because it does feel just bottom alright it's so much so yeah and some are so much more skin beer and sketch year than others %HESITATION so so yeah I mean that was a light bulb that went off and I realize an opportunity and a really
00:08:51married my passion for designing products for women and also designed and also bring in Prague to life so that's when I decided I wanted to work on creating an elevating sex toys because it doesn't have to be you know **** and you know **** and all that stuff
00:09:11yeah so then I mean you had that that aha moment but how did you come to translate that moment into kind of where you are now okay so that that took him several years %HESITATION so when I first started you know it's just myself and with some ideas
00:09:28and I basically %HESITATION did some kind of internal like the stimulus is sketching and are getting some rough prototypes um well let me back off yes so my my concept in creating this company with the whole vision was to elevate the idea of sex toys %HESITATION you know
00:09:48more than what we naturally you know preconceived dumb **** right now %HESITATION and so the idea I had was to marriage something such as jewelry which is completely on the you know up for this and from sex toys you can think am very that was something personality of
00:10:05sex toys on the ideas making them very elevated and is very discreet very elegant and actually very wearable so that's the idea behind my first company so Scott incognito says in cognitive spell the queue instead of G. talk NATO %HESITATION okay okay anyway so that was the concept
00:10:28behind the line and I was in Boston and the studio was there so I did what I could %HESITATION as far as I can go in Boston meaning %HESITATION rapid prototyping wasn't everywhere at the at the time at least in a cost effective way along and there's a
00:10:44lot of limitations as to what you can do %HESITATION trying to protect herself so what I did was after I got some ideas or not along I knew I need to make actual working samples and unfortunately in Boston it just wasn't needed to have the right connections or
00:11:05whatever but it just was not cost effective for me and also the me preface by saying how my star the company I bootstrapped it with just a few thousand dollars to my own savings okay so it's not like I had you know had a loan or had any
00:11:17you know nothing of that sort of just a few grand some savings and a lot of credit card yeah so so knowing I couldn't get what I need done in Boston %HESITATION I look overseas Sir through my experience working with other companies and knew how to get prototypes
00:11:36made overseas so I got online Ali Baba you know everybody knows beyond the Chinese sourcing our website around you know went through a lot of crazy ads and you know just kind of sift through the millions and millions of you know vendors that are available and then but
00:11:52he doesn't really Bobby just search sex toys and stuff no actually no no no quite the opposite so I mean if you search actually gas guzzling and things will pop up but not the kind that I was interested in doing %HESITATION because you have to send these manufacturers
00:12:08who will if you can excuse me if you look up sex toys you're just gonna see manufacturers who are currently making those rabbits and **** and all that stuff so instead I focused on my designs my designs were jewelry and said look at the materials most of them
00:12:25yeah there stainless steel they were die cast someone leather so I look for vendors who worked with those materials but they were not necessarily making sex toys okay so I sifted through a whole bunch to them and I did the shotgun approach where you know you send out
00:12:44the intro email I honestly by the way just as an aside I really think all that does well designed schools should have a curriculum on how to do global sourcing and some kind of class on Ali Baba asked type of stuff gets incredibly valuable for double designers anyway
00:12:59heavenly yeah so then I eat look for vendors who works in the materials that I was using all my products and you know after the intro email consists just through you know if they're really a manufacturer or broker because that's one of the things that %HESITATION I encountered
00:13:19a lot is that %HESITATION because not only bother you just the youth of these US suppliers they just put up a page but you don't really know for sure if there's actually a factory behind them or they're just some one who is representing a bunch of different back
00:13:34but they're gonna get a cut out of whatever you make with them so I I much preferred to work directly with factories because I also speak Chinese which is a huge advantage I think that now yet so I yeah yeah I know I so I speak fluent raffle
00:13:49Mandarin and it's it's it's been incredible so %HESITATION thank you mom yes of yeah so after I find out it's a through the people who are actually brokers for so many factors and Honan so I guess is a shocking approach you through process you know they're talking to
00:14:08them emailing back and forth you start to figuring out who's who and who you still don't know but %HESITATION maybe narrow it down to maybe seven or eight understand %HESITATION I fell most interested in and you know just it in a way you know there's not a perfect
00:14:23for me is not a perfect science obviously it is really a guy you know through their interact your interaction email you just have to make a judgment call is to do you think you might want to work with them getting you now what I do is then I
00:14:35schedule a factory business so I visit every single one of the factories that %HESITATION I was but interested in potentially working with this is so important because you know where it's coming from and you really know how if if you know if they're just kind of volition or
00:14:51you know there there's really a great factory behind it you know so %HESITATION so after narrowed it down then that's when I took the big you made the big leap to get China %HESITATION I had a few friends of friends at RCA college of art who just these
00:15:09experts that happen to be living and working there and and I met up with them and started to look at all these you're going almost across China to all these different little cities to meet these various factories that I found on Ali Baba and then I got it
00:15:26down even more narrow because some of them weren't who they said the work or you know whatever and %HESITATION down a few more who was like okay I would like you to work on the samples %HESITATION and then they started giving my sketches %HESITATION they made some samples
00:15:42and from there I tennis felts whether not yet that the quote opossum quality everything you know made sense and then I decided on who I wanted to work with so this was supposed to be just stay on like a two month struck a woman's trip turned into a
00:15:59one year long stay in Lee County yeah I also %HESITATION why so long so what happened was on after I started getting these samples in okay not the signal given mine only had enough money this is not making production run this just to make a eighty eight one
00:16:18or two or three samples had these great samples and it was right in time for this trade show it's the biggest adult toy trade show in Europe has called on Venus at the time I think they've changed around but it was in Berlin and I told myself that
00:16:35you know before I commit further into this idea the really important to get a gut check whether or not like I am smoking crack or Hey there's actually a market for this people would actually you know by this and I think that's when things is designer you know
00:16:51you this is our baby think it's great but you know the problems and will other people think it's great that that's that's the real question and in order to figure that out I mean now we have Kickstarter and all all that you know great crowdfunding stuff but at
00:17:04the time for me I I need to know whether or not this had any commercial you know value in terms of what buyers actually buy it to the best place I thought was well let's all go to a trade show gives some meat some buyers %HESITATION I did
00:17:21and on your on your on your on your own at this point still let's just you going show yes I'm completely on my own I mean I knew a few friends in the industry they made some introductions which is really helpful basically I'm you know I'm paying my
00:17:34way in you know here I am at the trade show but I don't have a teacher okay I don't have that have money so I basically have like my one sample of each product had like maybe five or six products in my little suitcase and I basically just
00:17:51met up with buyers and be like Hey this is what I have what do you think has kind of how it happened show and and how did it go I yet so it what wells and and that's that was the key is that even though I did not
00:18:03get a single order however all the buyers and I met the old told me look if you had some very transparent with them I told them like look on I'm new designer I'm just getting industry on these are some samples and in production with these %HESITATION you know
00:18:20let me know what you think and even though I don't get any orders from the buyers on the spot but all of them said to me look if you had you know if you help these RT in stock and place orders with you right now we love I
00:18:33love the and I heard that from you know three four five buyers and then that gave me enough confidence that okay maybe I'm not smoking crack and maybe there's something here so with bats that was around the November time and November what year November of two thousand and
00:18:52nine thousand nine yeah and I it also I then learned that the biggest time for this industry was Valentine's day naturally and I was just around the corner and so these buyers were like well look if you can get it to us you know buy Valentine's day you
00:19:10know I will place an order I heard that a few times and also got shot you know what I mean December I just have one of everything yeah what do I do so though like I said not without even a single order I kind of had to go
00:19:25with my gut and go back to the factories that you noted my samples and you know through because I was also living in China at the time you know we were together a little bit how they kind of got to know me I basically went to them was
00:19:38like look I don't have an order for this just yet but I'm pretty sure I will if you guys just first make me a small batch of like two hundred fifty I promise I'm good for it I promised I I don't have to beg them too much but
00:19:52they they kind of like the kind of felt I think they they trust me and I and %HESITATION in the so they didn't they made it to the first one fifty samples and it's kind of like my fingers both cross like a god hope the orders come in
00:20:04I hope the orders come in and then around December my very first order came and I was like my god I'm in business yeah so you know the very first PO you get from someone is always you know it's like most memorable you're like oh my god I'm
00:20:18a legit business so %HESITATION yes within the PLO started rolling in and very quickly I sold out of my first batch and then I was on to my next batch of five hundred and then increased two thousand so yeah just kind of started taking off so how did
00:20:36you so what so that that was the first company though how did you kind of get to crave okay so %HESITATION about a year and half of this %HESITATION after that I was you know well into the business %HESITATION I was launching my second collection of products at
00:20:52like eight new items and I was at another trade show a year later %HESITATION %HESITATION this is in the US where I was simply just showing my second class action to the buyers I'm hoping to get orders and Wallace at the trade show %HESITATION I was in the
00:21:10taxes like the last night of the show and I was in a taxi line with like a bunch of industry people and %HESITATION some guy like in front of me turnaround looks at my name badge says teaching he's like hot tea I incognito I I seen your jewelry
00:21:27it's really great I'd like this I like it annals of quiet you know who is the idiot and and it turns out to be he is not yet he is now my coat business co founder Michael to Paula back home he's actually the founder of crazy so at
00:21:45that point in time Michael had already started crate almost the same time I started incognito while I got my products on the market he was very much in the research phase of understanding and listening to customers which is something I was incredibly impressed by because as you know
00:22:02so many people I think jump right into design the products instead of take a step back and really understand what the users are thinking you know what the feeling kind of experience they want so anyhow so Michael we met at the street show and %HESITATION after a few
00:22:19long conversations we realize like what we why we're doing what we're doing in our vision is very much aligned that we both want to elevate toys in this space except he I I was already had a company had products on the market he has an idea on the
00:22:37balance sheet because %HESITATION craves angel funded at that time %HESITATION and he was looking for designer button push to have my own company so it turns out than he'd done bought my company incognito to bring the on board as co founder so that's how it happened while so
00:22:56I'm sure you were pretty attached to incognito at that point with it must've been a pretty big jump for you to to say okay let's let's let's get in yeah you know yes that yes and no yes and that I love the fact of having my own business
00:23:13no in that and you know I can decide what it wants and and the whole you know business out of it was very exciting for me however for the Opry sock I sucked yeah sucks so bad but so much more time do it well figure inventory I mean
00:23:36all the nitty gritty of what actually keep the business running I mean it is it is it is no joke you know they don't teach you that design school or you know entrepreneurship when I won so I was something I had learned as well just a you know
00:23:52because you do everything at first and you're like why am I doing everything I mean it's it's great to learn it but it had like gives you the way to a kind of appreciate %HESITATION canal one else in the company well ask why companies are so big right
00:24:04there you know why operations people exist or why you know everyone else to go absolutely yeah yeah I mean so you know at that at that point when I met Michael I had to be very honest with myself %HESITATION in terms of the KD I can hold onto
00:24:18incognito which is fine I mean I was a super profitable I mean actually I take that back I wasn't profitable but no business is you know in the very first year you know the most business take awhile but will a year or two before you know you're breaking
00:24:31even so but I had PO's I had you know is keeping the compass ship floating but I had to be honest with myself like okay to I want to continue doing this or do I want to be able to have a greater impact because I quickly realized incognito's
00:24:48appeal is very much a boutique small you know a small niche business and I was interested in doing things such as vibrators but unfortunate and have the background or the resource back in terms of like I you know I was an engineer you know on that type of
00:25:03thing and it has resources to to kind of get me there and I want to have more impact and with Craig had the ability to work with a much bigger toolbox and with them you know full of people and you know bigger balance sheet and %HESITATION I really
00:25:19suck at excel spreadsheets I I think I definitely was prime much wiser to let someone else do that and %HESITATION focus on you know what what my strengths are so I was happy to sell my company to crave to become co founder and the you know head designer
00:25:39of crazies and I'm sure Michael's much happier having him do spreadsheets that maybe that was not my forte right right what what what I love about your your story is that you know this sounds just like every other start up in the world especially you know the song
00:25:54like if if you didn't have the category of of sex toys attached to this it would sound just like any tech start up you know inside of Cisco some wondering how are you you know you guys are in San Francisco now there's obviously huge start obscene there how
00:26:09or how do you interact in that world and you know there are people thrown off at first because you're not doing out you know some sort of connected device Sir you know banks right now G. something LOL developing some at or something like right right no actually %HESITATION
00:26:26had me after all this is San Francisco right now we are Simpson's go right and so most who are probably not surprised I mean it's so it's it's always a if I'm brought into a like a cocktail party or whatever %HESITATION if I let the cat out of
00:26:45the bag you know what I do and then it immediately just kind of steals entire conversation for the party as I was like all my contacts will I mean when I get weird about is when someone comes at you know when I tell people what I do and
00:26:57then somebody it's like let me tell you I have this great idea that I think they should make and that's he clenches unlike all my god what are they going to say the some of the more interesting design suggestions oh my god okay without without embarrassing anyone I'm
00:27:18not gonna bears any well okay yeah okay I'll leave all the the said company names out %HESITATION so well actually I was an IDSA conference okay but is no one from idea say alright idea is actually the nationals and you know they have a lot of different vendors
00:27:34%HESITATION at setting up their booths so that the show designers their latest products or materials and you know things like that in the in the %HESITATION I think in the food area so they cut it sounds like a mini trade show sort of at the conference on and
00:27:52one of the vendors there sell eighty particularly desirable product to designers I'm not gonna say what it is of and a this sounds looking at the product and he's like yeah you know explain features and stuff and he's only also your designer obviously so what do you do
00:28:10analytical design conference because every time someone asked me what I do I have pretty much like you know less than two seconds to figure out whether this person can be cool with what I do or they're just not and how do you gauge that it's got again I
00:28:25mean you know if if I was back home in Atlanta I bite my lip a lot more I'm just like I work for start up you know we can't really talk about it but then if it's someone I'm just like I yeah it's on sex toys so %HESITATION
00:28:43I told the guy what it when I do this because it's design conference in our law school and then he was like like to this big gas then his eyes got really big and was just like that is so cool on I want to tell you about this
00:28:59idea though that you have had and I I think they get analysis like us okay what what is it and and %HESITATION he goes well okay on the side I actually I see deal with block machine rentals okay and also okay %HESITATION in addition to his sales job
00:29:23selling design products and he has a slot machine source side business and he was you know I've always wondered why these like slot machines are so uncomfortable you know to sit in and you know people are sitting a slot machines for hours right now it's like yeah yeah
00:29:39you know my mom gambles and also yeah I appeal to set me up because so I think okay tell me tell me what you think okay because so what if we may the %HESITATION seat and the front like area of like how I guess the console area of
00:29:59the sock machine to be shaped like a woman's **** like Jay Leno's **** yeah yeah they'll be really got it down shut it down walk walk it back well let I can it was always like unreal and I thought it is so he's like yeah you should make
00:30:16it like in like like she was asked you know and then be so comfortable and and you know I'm pretty high enough to hit a lot of you know it working with sex toys and some have answer a couple questions answers I was like you know %HESITATION I
00:30:33was like so you know we would not be interest crave my company we are you know not interested in that yet but I will tell you to companies who do make you know chopped off body parts of their top coat and cal Dodik's you should give them a
00:30:47call because %HESITATION yeah really yeah yeah a bigger one okay all right in he goes okay thanks thank someone some again no problem such is life yeah please to look at me the rest of the show yeah I just I it was real actually really I'll grab it
00:31:02he really regret it like sharing that with me yeah just kind of you know zoom past him so anyways sorry we're saying about yes the San Francisco design scene %HESITATION start saying yes I mean does not creating a a sex toy company is like any other start up
00:31:19on me it is dirty it is you know you're as a co founder you do everything I'm taking out the trash to you know at anything that needs to be done right and in San Francisco particular where we are at were based in Selma which apparently has become
00:31:34like the golden on like hub actually there's actually eight specific location some I think they call the golden sky block of gold square because interest Airbnb %HESITATION thinking her roku end like Yahoo is about to be there on but basically the whole block has just these phenomenal start
00:31:54ups on just a few blocks away from me and I you know that that's just really that's really inspiring that's really cool but which I'm not very like in tune with a who's who of the start up so like my boyfriend is on the actual doesn't work and
00:32:11started he works you know doing cancer research like serious stuff and he he is much for some of his much more in tune with all the you know who's who in in text art up world and like will be adults and it's like oh that's the Airbnb guy
00:32:27is who who really you know or like or that something was blogger Tienen over there like who what and so they're all around us and it's it's just very inspiring to be in their presence %HESITATION where being the big guys were actually %HESITATION they graduated as industrial centers
00:32:45from misty yeah I heard I heard one the founders speak on our last year at something called open co where it's it's actually in several cities like London and New York and where design studios or design companies open up their doors and you know to the public and
00:33:04to share what they do and they're being you guys sorry can't reasoning but you had a great story of how it all started but %HESITATION but man the legal battles they're they're they're dealing with right now is insane yeah there's me it seems like a lot of these
00:33:21these you know tech startup type companies it's they're doing traditional things in a really unprecedented way so like Airbnb or uber anytime you're threatening kind of the entrenched players they just kind of %HESITATION yet the entrenched players don't really like that too much so buzz word destructive history
00:33:40yeah yeah so so it was kind of interesting to me is that you know we're we're this time where the the tech industry is kind of interested in and wearable tack and you know quite honestly we're not doing a really good job so far you know it's like
00:33:58these really clunky yeah be a weird devices and and I I forget who was I heard say this the other day but I think she she made a really good point was like you know if you look at it and you wouldn't where it if it wasn't that
00:34:17your magical technique and technology in there you know it's not good right and I I think we're we're we're still kind of missing that from from wearable tech but it's you know sex toys no where kind of the first when one of the very first pieces of wearable
00:34:31tech you know going back a long time now you what do you think industrial centers are missing about designing some of the stuff this out well designing wearables designing wearables I mean okay yeah earned yes so eat yes it is very very hot right now %HESITATION and my
00:34:52my assessment of it at the moment is it's just not there yet I mean the products are based in like the first stepping stone into something better are not there yet you mean like the the technology or the designer to design and the technology yeah %HESITATION there are
00:35:09inklings of really really outstanding stuff however the way it's perhaps in view the form factor or but also you know culturally howl and what I think people would adopt things very quickly if the interface and the technology is in the form factors just seamless you know very much
00:35:31kind like the iPhone I mean she's I remember the day I had had a pager for for **** sakes you're back in the day and now you know look how quickly the iPhone and %HESITATION smartphones have been picked up just because they sold in the way that the
00:35:44inner ear interaction was just easy and like you mentioned before it's clunky and it it's something people look at it's like not to own where this all the time you know and so few of them are designed with women in mind at all yeah and it's tricky out
00:36:03to be honest I mean I think wearables for women are very tricky because of as you know a lot of women like fashion I'm I love fashion I'm very much a girly girl and I think about well is this going to match this you know what I'm aware
00:36:16today are you know so it it is even more difficult I think %HESITATION a making a product that you're wearing all the time to kind of almost corny with everything in your closet %HESITATION at the same time you also want something that's not too fat light fad like
00:36:36who you know corals really in right now so let's make this coral and that thing you have to be careful not to let the aesthetics in terms of kind of the fashion the whimsical aspect of it take over too much of the products I think because it it
00:36:53because right now you know what with Craig we have somewhere bulls we have some %HESITATION despair necklace come droplets actually %HESITATION I created in incognito that got re branded as crazy when I joined %HESITATION that these are necklaces there like two little pendants they look very just create
00:37:12a metal with stainless steel chain and if you wear them out they just look like little pendants but the actual the nipple vibrators and they're just silver and it you know it was also very hard because you you want something that appeals to a lot of people on
00:37:27that says something but doesn't say too much does that make sense yeah it's you know these things that that you want to come to work with your outfit not to become the statement of your outfit so you know it it's a complicated thing it really is yeah hate
00:37:42what strikes me about you know I think what part of what is enabled the sex toy industry to kind of you go through this period of %HESITATION design growth is the fact that a lot of the components are somewhat standardized I don't know if you would agree with
00:38:00that or not but it sounds you know I mean like essentially you know you're gonna have a vibrator of some sort you gonna have a battery of some sort and then on off switch of some sort but then after that it's it's it's really a matter of designing
00:38:12for certain situations certain aesthetic taste certain %HESITATION that's what I think it allows a little bit more freedom because you kinda know what the underlying tech is or maybe I was reading it well no I mean I don't know if you're not you're not you're not wrong in
00:38:28that %HESITATION if it's a vibrator guests this gonna have some parts that are pretty standard like you know a motor you know some kind of hopefully rechargeable battery would be really great are dipping a sophisticated you may need to PCB board okay %HESITATION and you need somewhere mount
00:38:41the motor in the products %HESITATION so there are some things that yes it is it is kind of basic %HESITATION however the if the use situation that you're talking about you know can be so different like this it is an internal is it clitoral is just you know
00:38:59is a for the but you how is it what is it for him so there are a lot of different missions on that and that very much dictates %HESITATION the the form that one would design to create deliver that experience right so right up with sex toys I
00:39:15think just in the very basic just like a basic simple clean vibrator I think the low hanging fruit what I mean by that is that there aren't a lot of super clean simple ones out there they're getting there there are more more in the last few years are
00:39:31popping up okay but they're just so many vibrators that resemble the rabbits %HESITATION you know everyone knows on the iconic rabbit you know was made famous by sex in the city you know has like a phallic and it has little rabbit that sitting on the other end on
00:39:48do you know what I'm talking about yeah I and I a basic understanding of it say I've got it I've got one here well good all good so the rabbit is one is this very iconic and and remember this not probably not because of its beauty out but
00:40:08just because how cheesy and you know crazy it is it's got this like **** and that gyrate and then you have this funny it's like what in the world %HESITATION so there are iconic objects like that that can really be rethought you know be designed and made better
00:40:28and then that's just like the basic low hanging fruit then there's another level innovation in terms of where for example wearables wireless you know who knows what you know on top of that that new technology new experiences that people want to have that we can design and Aidid
00:40:47around right but what we're just not even you know we're not quite there yet right in and I guess what I'm what I meant by a modular or that kind of like a standardized set is that by kind understanding what's going to go in it it allows you
00:41:03the opportunity to kind of create these different situational %HESITATION objects essentially right where it's like this one can be more internally he said or more clitoral or or whatever writing and maybe that's what's missing from kind of the wearable stuff is they're just they're just trying to slam
00:41:20the technology somewhere not thinking about what the actual uses yet yeah I mean it's it I mean I am not a huge at least right now I'm not an early adopter of wearable tack sure out a big fan of quantified self just that I you know it's just
00:41:39not really for me %HESITATION %HESITATION however I I'm not dismissing it is just for me I I I don't happen in my life you're not gonna have a quantified self %HESITATION vibrator soon I mean we always having the pipeline but I don't know if that's you know in
00:41:55in in the plant but %HESITATION so it's when we don't know the the usage and experience it it's really hard to pinpoint what kind of technology makes sense for the particular wearable arms so we are doing what we can to provide new experiences and I can't talk too
00:42:14much about that but looking at two people can have with the technology in a way that integrated much more seamlessly than you know then I cook something clunky and the feel that's gimmicky yeah so so what's the latest with the with grave now you've been you partnered up
00:42:34now for a couple years and at it seems like the company you know I have been reading your blog posts and seems the company's doing the welcome what what how did how did that evolution kinda play itself out once once the kind of the partnership happen there yes
00:42:49so after I joined %HESITATION we were still in self mode so you know like I said we didn't have at the time I got a lot of great research which I was very impressed by and we use that as the foundation of a fee being out which something
00:43:04you know imparted direction that we wanted to take and once I joined I started taking these %HESITATION product ideas and really bring them to life giving them a form of pressure working a prototyping and the first year we actually launch our first products are not in the traditional
00:43:23sense but through crowdfunding actually %HESITATION we want to be on Kickstarter but we were not allowed to be on Kickstarter %HESITATION because Kickstarter doesn't believe in vibrators I'm in a lot of other things as you know %HESITATION so we ended up on this like look very little known
00:43:38cycle siki which is now some other site %HESITATION but we we at this point do not launch the company we just wanted to launch this product idea case called US and actually to the states our best selling products to motor USB rechargeable vibrator %HESITATION it's medical it's using
00:43:58medical is not medical do not say that it is metal and silicone and the internet just that the compact Mister design of it is just very different than a lot of the plastic and silicon toys that you see out there so so difference %HESITATION it's an external life
00:44:16to just use it for customization %HESITATION we wanted to just kind of put that out there through crowdfunding just to see what what the reaction you know from the public would be just to see just you know if we're just kind of like almost like when I was
00:44:30at the Trijicon checking ourselves just to see what the reaction was so we released it in two thousand and twelve on %HESITATION on siki trying to raise fifteen thousand dollars how we did it in two days we ended up raising at the end of the things like four
00:44:47weeks for support actually I think me six weeks a hundred thousand dollars and we had over at like nine hundred some backers so we were complete take your blood away by you know the support especially because it's a vibrator and technically actually do what is world's first crop
00:45:02on a vibrator yeah so what ever when you guys were on see key like in that was that was that you say two thousand eleven that was yeah those children Levin and so like to to raise a hundred grand especially like you know CD would never got his
00:45:18biggest Kickstarter and so it's a much more %HESITATION less well known site and in the very early stages of crowd funding in general to raise that much money this is super impressive yeah yeah and that's one of things that you know I was mentioning about the the social
00:45:37climate I think people started to talk about this I mean most of it was very organic and how the word got out is really just people kind of passing it on like hate check this out you know whereas I think before he saw cool vibrator you couldn't email
00:45:51your you know friends like Hey check out this cool vibrator you know it doesn't work that way but if someone emails you an article saying Hey the this this vibrator you know raised forty six thousand dollars you know in you know three days you know it was on
00:46:05like fox news it was exceptional box and it was on like all these different places then people start just kind of spreading you know spreading it out there and then you have people who are interested they just like Hey yeah sure I'll back this and he did it's
00:46:19awesome so let's let's let's change gears a little bit here I want to talk a a about your role as a idea say is %HESITATION vice chair for women and design what what what do you can it what's your role now what what do you what's the kind
00:46:38of the job description of that how and how did you get into it okay I'm I I actually didn't even know such a position existed I I went to the national conference of last year in Chicago and the team at the time was called breaking the rules the
00:46:56theme of the conference was kind of to throw out the conventional ideas and out the format of the event at the conference was was quite different they had his breakout sessions where people propose whatever they wanted to talk about out and I was no interest I you know
00:47:14I've been on about this like why aren't there more women that's what the signers you know for awhile that a friend was like yeah you should put that on the board you know and I'll say okay fine so then I put on the board it came this will
00:47:25break out session and from there I just you know there's just a lot of support it was a lot of really cool and interesting conversations around you know why there weren't enough women and design are there are what happens to them and then I just kind of carry
00:47:42that with me %HESITATION and anyone list momentum so I started a meetup group local meetup group in San Francisco call women industrial design okay and %HESITATION sorry I was just doing kind of what I felt was kind of rights to perpetuate and kind of start to build a
00:47:58community I mean I looked around to see other women industrial design groups but unfortunately you know there are a few out there but they're not active not those a problem like I use for email sent them I even sent a check that all you know the ever deposited
00:48:13for my membership at but just I just didn't hear back and they just you know weren't really now you know alive so I started this meetup group %HESITATION and just kind of met up with women it's all very casual it's not like we sit in a circle and
00:48:28say hi I'm a designer I do this it's it's so incredibly just like casual having drinks at a bar or wherever and I guess through just my actions and my interest %HESITATION Nancy Perkins who is the chair of the women design section I'll she faces some email one
00:48:49day I was like Hey would you like to soon role of vice chair and I was like sure I I didn't know I didn't really did know the job description but I guess whatever I was doing she thought I was you know I was doing it and %HESITATION
00:49:04and then yeah they just can begin the vice chair %HESITATION but at around the same time I because of my meetup group my whole you know mission in just trying to meet a group is just so that women can meet other peers and also can help each other
00:49:23%HESITATION I think a lot of times because the department in which they work is often so male dominated it's not often you meet your peers and or get outside help or you know maybe just need a place to complain and **** about something you know whatever you know
00:49:40what are what are some of the conversations that you know if you could share what what are some of the the things that that you would talk about that io may be %HESITATION men would have been surprised that you brought up birth that was an issue or you
00:49:56know just you know stuff like that that you could only kind of talk about with the with other women well I mean it sound it's it's not it's it's it's not like it's scandalous or anything it was more because I think when you work in such a male
00:50:14dominated environments %HESITATION it's just great to be around other women where you can it's almost like you can relax a little because I think there's a lot of pressure %HESITATION in a very competitive work environment to always like the on its and you know just it's just that
00:50:31competition I think %HESITATION where as when you are outside of that work sending in your among your peers they get it they get like you know aha you know it happens and yes you have that Dick engineer that just refuses to make any design changes you know and
00:50:49who always comes back with that should be you know a mechanical reason why they can't change this our ballclub law you know and you get these kind of things and %HESITATION so it it's just going to kind of know that you're among other peers in or sometimes I
00:51:04think some women %HESITATION decides to come in any kind of like me or they decide that they want to try some new things like designing their own products or whatnot and any help finding sourcing manufactures or hate you know someone who make bags were you know so and
00:51:21so who can do some waterjet cutting or whatever you know and so that just kind of helps you know people in general just to %HESITATION your source where you can feel like or like a form you can like pose some questions out there Hey does anyone know this
00:51:37or Hey do you guys want to go visit this gallery with this launch party or something like that you know you know what you know obviously I have the perspective of a of a guy because I'm a guy I'm a designer in the you know %HESITATION I I
00:51:54wondered you know what what don't guys generally under or stand or appreciate about %HESITATION women designers and that an error may you know may have sent a strong wait what is it are there certain experiences that you guys have that that we don't and we would kind of
00:52:14be surprised by or you know you know own I am not on a plate up stereo types on it this is this is a question that is I want to answer in okay all right I would say this and it was far as design men design women I
00:52:36mean there is that there's a gigantic canyon of misunderstandings and just for men and women just in general okay so much less yeah design men and women because I think sometimes when you're both peers in the standing expertise %HESITATION it can be quite feisty because it's like I
00:52:56think it's this and I think is that it will tell you both have a double design degree you know out west like me my boyfriend you know he's from a biology background so I'm like well I like this chair better and he's like okay will destroy the designer
00:53:08but doesn't mean he can't interject his own you know he's like well I still like the other one better public law you know but I can just imagine in a design relationship you know it can be maybe a little more complicated than that %HESITATION but I think for
00:53:21women I think what what is surprising also just also from my experience of researching and designing products for women is that women are actually it's a very very very practical I mean more practical than you would think sure there are times that they're not gonna know what they
00:53:41want to and you know there's some you know everyone changed their mind or what not but I think the modern day woman she is quite practical in terms of what kind of object she will want to bring into her life because her life is busy I mean she
00:53:58can't some have kids some have your careers to try to juggle with maybe like an outside job or you know they have all these other things are going on like myself I have a start to run into doing this women design show you know %HESITATION so the decision
00:54:12to buy something and to use it all the time you know more than like just a fashion accessory where you put all once in awhile you know that thinking into that product in me that product has to be you know really practical and really designed for her in
00:54:29terms of her experiences that she has throughout her day and I think none of us those companies in our research or products don't really reflect that they quite understand their user the quick don't quite understand the experience you know a woman wants and it's not it's not like
00:54:48you know obviously the paint and the whole aesthetic style issue side on there so many things about what goes on in a woman's life that is just so vastly different %HESITATION you know in a man's life yeah I'm so either one of the questions that I think can
00:55:06a lead you to the sun and you said you mentioned it was %HESITATION near why aren't there more women designer so if you kind of learn anything about that why why do you think that there are more women designers so I started at the conference asking why aren't
00:55:22there more women designing and in actuality I learned that it's not that there aren't any women designers there are there really are there are a lot of women designers but they're just not being recognized that's the thing that's really surprising to me white white is that is I
00:55:41mean I think what I think just by nature women are great team players they are you know so much so that they don't raise their hand be like Hey I did that and I want credit I just don't think you know it's in woman's nature to like do
00:55:58that out in like you know recently with a whole show Sandburg lean in and you know don't sit at the back of the conference room you know set for it really is a tough since of that that %HESITATION a lot of women you know you do work for
00:56:09great studios they were for great designers some let me start their own thing you don't hear very much about them I don't know why but through my journey of just trying to connect with more women designers there are loads of them loads of them we just don't know
00:56:24each other exists we just don't know and whenever you know they are in contact with each other just like I didn't know there was a woman designer doing this you know and which is just fantastic %HESITATION I think a lot also has to do with %HESITATION once a
00:56:37woman has a child for example once their kids other things like raising a child you know versus a design conference those kind of things start to conflict so if you know where your priorities and I think %HESITATION it just basically on a speaker phone obviously but I think
00:56:55just for some women %HESITATION you know their party's gets shifted and is not for them is not about the design communities more about look it's my house is my life my home with my family you know that's what it's all about and leading up to you know this
00:57:09woman design show I found there are many established women designers who was like I don't know who want to do the show you know and I was like no you must do the show why why do you think people are saying that well some of them what if
00:57:25they're if they're stoppers designers they they have no it there's no financial incentive for them it's not like getting more exposure they already have exposure or you know they they have work that's keeping them study %HESITATION is that for them it's just and they have other things going
00:57:42on their lives like I don't know if I want to you know just to show the house like no you have to because it's not it's not just about you is about you showing your face with the rest of the women and showing that look at all these
00:57:56great things that women have to sign in the past and it also helps the younger generation to be like I have some role models because if you think about the long arm of the examples that we have in our history art design history books like eva Zeisel or
00:58:11you know Eileen great this really very few and far between you know among the raisin eaves and sarin's and you know Louise and all of that you have so many more mail %HESITATION %HESITATION idols and role models to draw from and not as many you know women so
00:58:28I think it's important for the women's it kind of stand together and cut be in the show or in a show or be recognized and try to elevate themselves in the media for the things that they've done %HESITATION because it it shows that you know you're not just
00:58:45in the background I learned that so many women are in the background and you know not saying Hey you know I worked on this I worked on that so %HESITATION might Michael's hopefully is just try to provide an opportunity through the show %HESITATION provide a platform for them
00:59:04to showcase their talents yeah yeah let's talk about the the show a little bit %HESITATION well wait when is it and what and where is that and what and what is it because we we've been talking about we haven't kind of fully and yeah right so %HESITATION so
00:59:21this is the first IDSA sponsored women industrial design show first ever first ever okay yes first ever and I actually double and triple check with ideas say and no one has like they could be it's no one knows I Ming and Nancy has been on the board for
00:59:39over like I think fifteen or twenty years and she has since you know she's I have never heard of another one there has been it's kinda yeah yeah yeah is is really amazing and actually there has been %HESITATION another show that shook his women twenty years ago ninety
00:59:54five nineteen ninety five are those hosted by Pratt's in the name of the show is called goddess in the details so actually Nancy Perkins who is the chair of I doubt the ID idea say she was in that show so that was twenty years ago and that was
01:00:11the only the only other show I could find that celebrated and you know recognize just women industrial design so I was like well you know it's about we should have another one yeah yeah yeah you know twenty years ago you know we're still with pagers and stuff right
01:00:27so out so much is changed on and yes so that that is not that that the show is aimed to just showcase emerging and established designers October fifteen women %HESITATION but there are actually three additional ones because the work was so great that the judges onto one of
01:00:45the the mouse we have three honorable mentions we have I believe %HESITATION five up and coming which are designers with less than five years of experience in or their students or professionals who have more than five years of experience as we have ten of those %HESITATION so in
01:01:01total this show is just a one night only show in San designed week on June fourteenth from six to ten PM posted by Astor studios on the showcase all next you know eighteen women and we'll have a panel discussion by leading designers and experts and specialists in the
01:01:23industry %HESITATION you know having a discussion I'm not sure what exactly is being hosted by our moderator Kaman Campbell senior strategist at Teague so very much looking forward to that said that they think there's like eight women who are going to be on the panel yeah you know
01:01:42it's so how did you go about finding the women for the show because you know I think it's interesting that you said that %HESITATION at least in your experience women don't tend to promote themselves as much as men do men so how did you how did you go
01:01:59about finding them well this is a open submissions so anyone with the national design background they can all plus every single person applied some people had to be knowledge to apply and some just in one applying you know and that's that's fine %HESITATION someone to want to play
01:02:18because they felt they were at a place where the or super proud of their work and they want to wait till later which is you know which is great because it becomes something that you kind of work towards you know which is really cool %HESITATION so these are
01:02:31all natural submissions and %HESITATION I was not one of the judges %HESITATION so we had a panel of judges who curated and just created by points and it's a very simple mathematical thing the top you know scores you know got in and you know that was that so
01:02:54what do you think the what what what's an outcome you hope to have from the show turn now or people walking away from the show no sorry you brought you broke you just search could you start questioning from when I asked that question my hope is just after
01:03:17people leave the show arm or even years from now they will remember the women name and the work that they did or the work they did %HESITATION because that's that's important just to know that he you know she designed the US %HESITATION and it will be even more
01:03:37awesome is that if the younger generation of women is inspired and they feel like I have a role model that I can look up to and my ultimate ultimate goal is that if these if soon we can start to identify famous women designers in the media as easily
01:03:55as we can say Michael young Tom Dixon and your NATO facade so I you know I mean because we are surrounded by designers yet if I asked you who you know can you name a famous you know females also designer it's like let me get back to you
01:04:11on that you know it's just not that easy and I I and and from what I've learned is that it's not that they're not there they are is just we don't hear about them so yeah we think we can do to them better support women designers and and
01:04:30you know not just women supporting them but man supporting the whole design community out I think that's the shows a great first step but what on what else do you think we could do to kinda yeah I think %HESITATION one is to provide more opportunities for women to
01:04:45shine on either have shows %HESITATION give awards %HESITATION but create platforms %HESITATION and you know call them out when they did a great you know when they've done a great job like is that women are not that comfort I think I found that some women are just not
01:05:00that even established when designers like when I talk to them in like kind put them on the spot like like a you could tell the just not so like sometimes you know so sure you know they want all the spotlight on them you know just discourages words minutes
01:05:15like yeah sure I'll give an interview no problem okay with you know I know I'm stereotyping a little bit but there is something about that %HESITATION that we need to kind of us I think women as ourselves it's our job to like Hey you know don't be so
01:05:30shy it's okay get yourself out there it's cool %HESITATION students one provide more opportunities for women I'd say help each other I hope not it'll help the women help you know the men can help women women helping other women %HESITATION just also young designers who may be a
01:05:49little lost with you know the little direction or guidance %HESITATION encourage them help them any way you can because I think helping others is is one the best ways that you can you know %HESITATION you know put good things in motion so that's another thing last thing I
01:06:06would say is provide a really good work environment and that's much easier said than done but I think if companies I don't wanna say women friendly because I don't know what that is I just have a work environment where it's just great for everyone %HESITATION I mean that's
01:06:24just that's just a good thing %HESITATION provided really good atmosphere for everyone yeah do give examples of environments heard you know stories that you've heard or are tuition that you've been that have been not as supportive maybe not maybe it maybe specifically to women I environments are not
01:06:46I would say they were trying to be but that just they they did it accidentally you know but I think we have a lot as a lot where guys think that they're just %HESITATION they're being fair but I think that there %HESITATION they're just oblivious to certain things
01:07:05that %HESITATION you know that a woman would respond to differently than a maybe a a man what yeah totally %HESITATION I think I think you know often times a lot of things that happen the president in small companies %HESITATION out where a lot of managements men %HESITATION they
01:07:24don't quite you know get there they don't quite see how this can be not as women friendly of example corporate outings like doesn't always appear baseball game some women absolute love baseball which is going to get some great okay but not everything has to be involved you know
01:07:41like %HESITATION you know we got box seats for you know others baseball game you know who wants it you know I mean it's up I was in my company actually %HESITATION you know I've treated people I worked with like to Medicare pedicure I mean that's also the other
01:07:57extreme okay where as someone who viewing this feeling of my god that's just like Adam and don't even get my nails done you know right now right now I was I was in the company where every year they would give out %HESITATION presence to the employees and the
01:08:11guys would get restaurant gift certificates and the the girls would get %HESITATION gift certificates to like get manicures and pedicures and it was the same response like well I cut you know I like eating too who don't like restaurant would actually be better for me than like going
01:08:29to get my nails done or you know now and you know and that's a that's a great example that you just provided %HESITATION and I think the best way to approach that is really just provide options like they can choose to have that or can choose that don't
01:08:42just give it out you know provide options and that's just one of the best ways just let them choose you know and then whoever is treating the the palate you know that they can choose options from make sure there's a few women on there who can provide a
01:08:58few good inputs instead of just like Hey how about a basketball game or a hockey game you know right so sure yeah yeah I think yeah it's just so not assume is just to provide options because I think also what I learned at crave especially in our work
01:09:14environment where you know we're dealing with people with all different sorts of you know sexual orientation gender is you know and it just can't assume okay %HESITATION and one of the things that we say in our office is that %HESITATION you know it's totally okay to share the
01:09:32will never ask you to share will never say you have to do so and so or just give you the you know one option to yeah action does no option but just tell you that this is what you must do on it's more that we always try to
01:09:46you know that our employees %HESITATION choose okay well we could go to this food thing or do indeed the US and then you know what you want to do on and it's just **** you know people choose and I know it's for small companies easier for us to
01:10:00say that don because were so small wears a big company I it's even harder %HESITATION I think I think come bigger companies can do a better job of providing options and not just assume like well you're gonna love manicures right if okay cool well this is been a
01:10:20this is been a lot of fun have been enjoyed kinda hearing your %HESITATION a whole story with crave which is I think it's just it's really really cool to the kinda thank you hear the whole story and and it's awesome here your success and I can't wait I
01:10:35I'm unfortunate Camilla beyond same Cisco for your show but %HESITATION how to show how people did buy tickets ahead of time or did they %HESITATION data show up what what should people do where they go to find out more about the the women in industrial design show okay
01:10:49so %HESITATION they can go to our website we do you know because we're nonprofit so we have a tumblr site because it's free ID women dot tumblr dot com there there's a link to purchase tickets early birds tickets are available until may twenty third %HESITATION for ten dollars
01:11:07and then after that general mission is fifteen dollars in at the door is fifteen dollars so if you don't plan ahead you can just show up and not just be fifteen dollars and that ticket price goes all goes back to organization %HESITATION but you also part of the
01:11:21events that includes obviously the gallery viewing %HESITATION free drinks also really really nice catered orders %HESITATION as well as a panel discussion so so yeah needs so for it we can stop by and check it out I'm very excited yes and hopefully it's not going to be the
01:11:39last year or another twenty years until another one of these shows outright now I now so hopefully I mean what we're doing is try to create templates and serve other chapters or other sections want to do things like this in other cities they can so they just have
01:11:53to reach out to me or the organization and we have you know everything that we've done so far to pull this event together %HESITATION nicely put together in a folder in Google drive said that this can be easily done again so and I definitely hope as well that
01:12:08this is not going to be the last year for another like twenty years yeah yeah I think the I think that would be great and I think %HESITATION you know not just the the woman but everyone really appreciate that well cool thank god yeah cool thinks the thank
01:12:25you that's our show only think tea for being our guest today you can check out the work that she does for her company crave by going to love crave dot com that love grave dot com seriously go check out the woman in industrial design show this Saturday June
01:12:51fourteenth after studios three forty eight sixty you can subscribe to after school and I to just go to the iTunes store in your computer or the podcast F. on your mobile device and search for core seventy seven or after school and when you're there if you like what
01:13:10you're hearing it was a nice review so other people can find us as well also on core seventy seven we include show knows that the key to all of the stuff you heard us talking about with Steve you can follow me and the after school podcast on Twitter
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