Full Transcript for Dan McKellar on Discipline, Culture & The Dressing Shed

some league teams the Broncos, and you've just done the Bulldogs and I think it's a really cool one for our audience to hear that such a high-profile coach like yourself is actually taking the time away to upskill, to go into other cultures. 00:03:10.324 --> 00:03:13.778 Why do you do it and what do you get out of it? 00:03:16.090 --> 00:03:18.894 Well, the why is I want to get better. 00:03:18.894 --> 00:03:28.629 You know, and I think any coach or any professional in any industry, if you think you know it all and you think you've got all bases covered, then you're kidding yourself. 00:03:28.629 --> 00:03:31.519 So I love the professional development side of things. 00:03:31.519 --> 00:03:52.540 Professional development side of things, and over the last month I've had the privilege of going into the Canterbury Bulldogs with Cameron Seraldo and his team in there, and this week I'm spending some time with Michael McGuire and the Brisbane Broncos and I specifically chose both of those teams and organizations because they've gone through or are going through a similar path to what we're on at the Waratahs. 00:03:52.950 --> 00:03:56.129 And yeah, it's all about just getting better and growing. 00:03:56.129 --> 00:04:14.399 And you know, in the past I've spent time with um, Australian netball, with the diamonds, with Lisa Alexander and the Melbourne storm and being over to the UK and Ireland to to do a couple of trips over there and it's um, there's just little bits of gold that you always find and that you'll always take back to your own program and a lot of the time it's just reassuring what you're doing, you're on the right track. 00:04:14.399 --> 00:04:22.286 But um, great to build those relationships and bounce ideas around and share with with other professional coaches or other people that are in high performance. 00:04:22.786 --> 00:04:26.117 Yeah, and you find league, because this is a very similar game to rugby union. 00:04:26.117 --> 00:04:26.720 Do you find? 00:04:26.941 --> 00:04:55.057 there's a lot of things you can like technical pickups as well as other things yeah, no, there definitely is, um, you know, I think there's, there's more and more now there's uh, I think on both games is is an influence of of of uh on rugby union, of rugby league, and I think that started back in the late 90s with with john muggleton and how he took over and started coaching defense with that highly successful wallaby team and I think now within rugby league you're starting to see traits from rugby union. 00:04:55.078 --> 00:05:00.600 You know, goal line dropouts, short contestable kicks um, contestable kicking, um in general. 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:06.000 So I think that, um, I think it's huge respect from from one game to the next, certainly from my end. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.433 I grew up in in North Queensland. 00:05:08.433 --> 00:05:20.322 I've always loved rugby league, went to boarding school and fell in love with with rugby union um and enjoy getting into those uh nrl programs and just seeing how they do things and and seeing how they've gone about change. 00:05:20.322 --> 00:05:31.911 And, as I said, that the dogs and the broncos are both gone through significant change over the last season or the last couple of seasons and it's um, it's interesting to see how they've gone about it, do you do? 00:05:31.950 --> 00:05:43.062 you take in specific things you want to get out of it, or do you sort of go very open-minded and just let things flow in and just get a feel of the way things are going in other places? 00:05:44.849 --> 00:05:48.896 Yeah, I think from a training side of things there's probably not a whole lot. 00:05:48.896 --> 00:06:04.319 I think it's more around the environment and the culture mate, which is obviously something that you're really passionate about, and how they create the environment and the culture mate, which is obviously something that you're really passionate about, and how they create the environment and the culture that they have within their own four walls, how they do meetings, how they review, how they preview. 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:10.039 It's a long season in the NRL, so how do they keep Monday mornings excited? 00:06:10.039 --> 00:06:21.343 You know win, lose or draw how do they continue to get the players up and about at 9 am on a Monday morning when they go into a review meeting, regardless of what the outcome is from Saturday night or whenever they might have played? 00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:25.601 But yeah, I think from a training point of view, over the years I've taken certain things out. 00:06:25.601 --> 00:06:35.625 I remember going to the Melbourne Storm and sitting there watching them train and go like why are they so much fitter than every other team that they play against? 00:06:35.625 --> 00:06:42.800 And it all came back down to their contact conditioning and the amount of time that they would spend on that close quarter contact. 00:06:42.800 --> 00:07:06.961 So I took that out of that experience and implemented that back down at the Brumbies and continue to use that now at the Waratahs, because I think it's that contact conditioning, that close quarters, that physicality, that for the big men, having them really well conditioned to be able to get off the ground and do it, repeat it over and over and over again is the difference between the really good sides and the and the, you know, the also rants. 00:07:08.572 --> 00:07:09.617 I know, like the Melbourne Storm is. 00:07:09.617 --> 00:07:11.336 Actually that's part of their culture, isn't it? 00:07:11.336 --> 00:07:17.396 That sort of that wrestling thing that's their famous side of things aren't they, that's and you could like to. 00:07:17.416 --> 00:07:21.180 Yeah, john Donahue's been there a long time. 00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:25.706 You know he's coached that and obviously Craig Bellamy's very big on defense. 00:07:25.706 --> 00:07:33.314 You know the first you don't get picked in the

team if you're not a good defender and you know their values and things that I really value myself. 00:07:33.314 --> 00:07:50.163 And yeah, they're a great organization and there's no surprise year on year With Frank Panese's input as well, a really good man who is critically important down there to what they do yeah, they have success. 00:07:50.764 --> 00:07:51.404 Yeah, they do. 00:07:51.404 --> 00:07:59.361 And just speaking about values I guess it's the question, dan is like how do you define culture and what's your values around that? 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:28.483 Yeah, well, I think you've nailed it right there in the words that you've just said, because for me, it's a question you get asked, obviously in our roles, quite a lot, ben, and culture is something that's often spoken about, but you can't measure it, you can't see it, you can't feel it, and I think, before you go to culture, I think you need to get your values right and you just use the word there yourself your values and your standards, and what do you stand for as an organization, both on field and off the field? 00:08:28.529 --> 00:08:38.100 And I think once you're really clear on what those particular things are, then the culture flows off the back of that, because really the culture is just the actions of the people within the building. 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:55.161 And I think if you've got those clear standards and behaviors and the discipline to live and breathe it every day of the week, they're the organizations, whether it be a rugby team, whether it be a accountancy firm, a lawyer firm, whatever it might be. 00:08:55.161 --> 00:09:01.440 They're the organizations that have an environment that you want to be a part of and generally are pretty successful. 00:09:52.613 --> 00:09:53.437 I love that phrase, mate. 00:09:53.437 --> 00:09:54.093 Culture is just. 00:09:54.093 --> 00:09:55.216 It's a really simple one. 00:09:55.216 --> 00:10:02.997 Culture is just the actions of the people in the building it's a nice way of putting it and that's derived by the values. 00:10:02.997 --> 00:10:04.689 I think that's it, isn't it. 00:10:04.709 --> 00:10:09.378 Yeah, you know, when the last person at night shuts the door and turns the lights off, you know the culture goes with them. 00:10:09.378 --> 00:10:14.754 And then in the morning it comes in with the first person that walks in and you know it's all about. 00:10:14.754 --> 00:10:26.073 We've all heard the phrase the standards that you walk past are the standards that you accept, and I think that's what your culture's built on. 00:10:26.073 --> 00:10:28.163 And making sure, first and foremost, that it's really clear on, on, on, uh, on what you expect of one another. 00:10:28.163 --> 00:10:28.725 Um, and then you go about it. 00:10:28.725 --> 00:10:33.082 You know it doesn't mean that it needs to be um, an army camp or or uh, or that sort of thing. 00:10:33.082 --> 00:10:37.697 You can have fun and enjoy each other's company and enjoy the environment at the same point in time. 00:10:37.697 --> 00:10:40.051 But you also need to be really clear on what's expected. 00:10:40.051 --> 00:10:41.335 Yeah, what do? 00:10:41.515 --> 00:10:41.917 what do? 00:10:41.917 --> 00:10:42.899 What do you expect out of your cultures, dan? 00:10:42.899 --> 00:10:43.641 What's the what's what's expected? 00:10:43.641 --> 00:10:47.212 Yeah, what do you expect out of your cultures, dan? 00:10:47.212 --> 00:10:51.697 What's some of the big, you know, phrases and values that you hold dear to your heart? 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:53.662 Yeah, discipline. 00:10:53.662 --> 00:11:00.480 You know I'm big on discipline, I'm big on hard work and sacrifice. 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:17.461 And look, I honestly believe, ben, that you don't have success in life without those things the ability to be able to repeat good habits day after day after day and consistently being able to deliver that. 00:11:17.461 --> 00:11:20.418 And it's within the smallest things. 00:11:20.418 --> 00:11:32.261 It might be around your sleep, it might be around your recovery, it might be around how you prepare to train, and then that flows into your training and, off the back of your preparation and your performance, around your training. 00:11:32.261 --> 00:11:35.254 That will then flow into outcomes, and I don't think it's a fluke. 00:11:35.254 --> 00:11:39.782 You know, I really do believe that the discipline, hard work and sacrifice. 00:11:39.782 --> 00:11:43.860 You know we work in a challenging environment. 00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:47.212 I know I've got a young family myself. 00:11:47.212 --> 00:11:55.259 A lot of the players have got families, other staff have got families and the reality is, at times the family comes second, which is sad at some times. 00:11:55.259 --> 00:12:02.152 But you need to be able to make that sacrifice if you want to be the best team, the best organization, the best individual that you can possibly be. 00:12:03.576 --> 00:12:10.701 Do you get a good buy-in with that, or do some players find that hard to adapt to? 00:12:10.701 --> 00:12:15.739 Or have you got a way of bringing them around, getting them to buy in selling that concept? 00:12:17.030 --> 00:12:22.919 Yeah, I think you've got to make it really clear to start off with around what it is, what you expect. 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:29.620 And you know, looking at the Waratahs as an example, we've made significant change there over the last 10 months. 00:12:29.620 --> 00:12:37.000 Since I walked into the building and look, I take my hat off to the boys the buy-in has been outstanding. 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:39.398 You know, like it's a big adjustment. 00:12:39.398 --> 00:12:53.258 It was a big adjustment for how I did things, to how things were done previously, and that's certainly not a criticism of how it was done previously, like, but we all work differently and how I work and what I expect is different to um, previous programs. 00:12:53.258 -->

00:13:04.615 So, um, but the reality is, mate, if you don't want to buy in, then then you're probably not going to stay on the bus for too long, you know, and buy in or you're going to be asked to hop off the bus. 00:13:05.532 --> 00:13:07.559 So that's the harsh reality of high performance. 00:13:07.850 --> 00:13:09.855 That's the nature of that industry, isn't it? 00:13:10.518 --> 00:13:11.801 That's it Mark, that's exactly it. 00:13:12.529 --> 00:13:14.976 And I guess it leads to this sort of question about you. 00:13:14.976 --> 00:13:16.321 Have been around a few roles. 00:13:16.321 --> 00:13:17.696 They're very high profile roles. 00:13:17.696 --> 00:13:20.379 You're coming into new organizations. 00:13:20.379 --> 00:13:24.177 How do you come into those? 00:13:24.177 --> 00:13:28.736 You do you have a process of just wait for a while, watch, or do you come in hard with? 00:13:28.736 --> 00:13:30.461 You know, this is my way come in. 00:13:30.461 --> 00:13:32.312 You got to be on board with this, or do you? 00:13:32.312 --> 00:13:36.141 How do you get manage that, that balance on that side of things? 00:13:37.513 --> 00:13:38.595 yeah, I think you know. 00:13:38.595 --> 00:13:41.561 You know you have your way of how you do things and and what. 00:13:41.561 --> 00:13:44.681 What, um, what you truly believe in you. 00:13:44.681 --> 00:13:48.096 You know as an individual and as a head coach. 00:13:48.096 --> 00:13:55.764 But I also think you need to respect the DNA of the organization that you're taking over. 00:13:55.764 --> 00:13:58.118 You know that's the reality. 00:13:58.118 --> 00:14:01.080 It's, you know, as I said, discipline, hard work. 00:14:01.530 --> 00:14:06.274 I think in our environment that there's no real surprises there, but what does that look like? 00:14:06.274 --> 00:14:09.961 What does that look like from one day to the next? 00:14:09.961 --> 00:14:37.201 But I think, making sure that you respect the DNA of the organization that you're taking over, the culture of the country that you might be coaching in I've coached in Japan, I've coached in Australia, I've coached in the UK, ireland they're all very, very different, but I think, overall, what you stand for as a coach, and as a head coach in particular, you'd never want to sway too far away from that because, well then, it's bullshit, isn't it? 00:14:37.201 --> 00:14:37.663 You know what I mean. 00:14:37.663 --> 00:14:41.692 If you start to pretend and do things a different way, players and staff will quickly see through that. 00:14:41.692 --> 00:14:44.075 Things a different way, players and staff will quickly see through that. 00:14:45.216 --> 00:14:49.438 If you sway too much away from what you are as a heat coach, it's bullshit. 00:14:49.438 --> 00:14:54.302 That's probably the quote of the podcast, but it's true though. 00:14:54.302 --> 00:14:57.564 Right, you're the leader of this operation, yeah. 00:14:58.245 --> 00:14:59.165 Yeah, that's it. 00:14:59.165 --> 00:15:05.878 You've got to be authentic, you've got to be genuine, and if you're not, if you're trying to pretend to be someone that you're not. 00:15:05.878 --> 00:15:08.682 You know like I'm pretty passionate. 00:15:08.682 --> 00:15:12.480 You know I wear my heart on my sleeve. 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:19.783 I'll care for the team that I coach, the players that I coach, and I'll ride the highs and I'll ride the lows as well, you know. 00:15:19.783 --> 00:15:27.548 And there's times there where you've got to be really self-aware of your own emotions and have that emotional intelligence, um, but you can't pretend. 00:15:27.548 --> 00:15:28.250 You know what I mean. 00:15:28.250 --> 00:15:35.610 You can't pretend if you're hurting, you're hurting, um, but you can hurt for a period of time, but then you've got to roll the sleeves up and get the bottom lip off the ground and move on pretty quickly. 00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:37.253 Yeah, absolutely. 00:15:37.293 --> 00:15:37.673 Right now. 00:15:37.673 --> 00:15:40.256 No, I think it's a really important thing. 00:15:40.256 --> 00:15:46.346 You just said there, like about being you and that self-awareness I've heard you speak a number of times on the importance of self-awareness. 00:15:46.346 --> 00:15:52.802 Is that a big aspect for you of your leadership is to be really self-aware of who you are, what you are? 00:15:52.802 --> 00:15:55.054 Yeah, you want your players to be that too. 00:15:55.075 --> 00:16:19.192 Yeah, and it was something that I was made aware of or you know, you do those 360 degree profiles and that when I was an assistant coach and and you know I just spoke about the the traits that I present as a human being around passion and hard on your sleeve and that sort of thing, and and self-awareness was something that I learned early on in my coaching career that you need to be aware of your body language, you need to be aware of your mood. 00:16:19.192 --> 00:16:26.431 Um, you know, you have to have that emotional intelligence so that as a leader you're leading. 00:16:26.431 --> 00:16:36.033 You know, if I'm dragging my bottom lip on a Monday morning off the back of a Saturday loss or something, then the players are going to look at that, the staff are going to look at that and everyone will follow off the back of it. 00:16:36.033 --> 00:16:42.221 You know they're looking for you and for you to set the example, and it has to be a positive one. 00:16:42.221 --> 00:16:45.972 So, so that that self-awareness is massively important for me, I think. 00:16:46.553 --> 00:16:48.578 I think conflict is another thing. 00:16:48.578 --> 00:16:49.421 You need to. 00:16:49.421 --> 00:16:55.922 You need to be comfortable with conflict within any culture or high performing environment. 00:16:55.922 --> 00:17:01.081 It just has to be for the betterment of the team or the individual and it has to be respectful. 00:17:01.081 --> 00:17:05.329 And I'd say the other thing, mate is is is enjoyment. 00:17:05.329

--> 00:17:07.219 You know you have to have fun. 00:17:07.219 --> 00:17:08.965 You have to enjoy what we're doing. 00:17:08.986 --> 00:17:11.492 We have to remember who are we coaching here. 00:17:11.492 --> 00:17:15.881 We're coaching excitable, talented, uh, young men. 00:17:15.881 --> 00:17:16.844 You know what I mean. 00:17:16.844 --> 00:17:20.437 Who, who, just the reality is that they want to have fun. 00:17:20.437 --> 00:17:40.832 You know, like you want to drive through the gates of um, daceyville or wherever you might be, um and and and turn up thinking, you know, I'm going to have fun today and I'm going to work hard and it's going to be professional, I'm going to be challenged, um, and there's high expectations around how I uh do my role and know my role, but it's going to be enjoyable as well, and that's. 00:17:40.832 --> 00:17:59.255 That's something you've got to constantly remind yourself of, regardless of what the outcome is and, if I'm honest, probably got that wrong a couple of times this year Um, you know, you, you get, you get stuck in, in, in, in outcomes and results, and and and uh, you need to remind yourself what's, what's the bigger picture, what's the vision, what does success truly look like? 00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:00.369 What'd you do? 00:18:06.540 --> 00:18:10.134 um, I, I just I think it was a combination, I don't think there's one in particular. 00:18:10.134 --> 00:18:20.344 I think in front of the group, um, I didn't present that way, but on a sunday morning around my family, um, at times it would be like there'd been a death in the family. 00:18:20.344 --> 00:18:21.626 You know what I mean and you need to. 00:18:21.626 --> 00:18:22.758 You need to. 00:18:22.758 --> 00:18:24.461 You need to perk up and be like mate. 00:18:24.461 --> 00:18:25.564 The sun came up today. 00:18:25.564 --> 00:18:33.598 You know like you lost a game of footy, or you might have lost two in a row, or you might have got an injury to a significant player within your group, but you need to understand that. 00:18:33.598 --> 00:18:36.846 You know you're still upright, you're still breathing. 00:18:36.846 --> 00:18:37.607 The sun's up. 00:18:37.607 --> 00:18:39.160 You know we live in a great country. 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:42.756 You've got to be privileged and grateful for what we do, we work in. 00:18:42.756 --> 00:18:44.843 I'm not digging holes here, am I? 00:18:44.843 --> 00:18:48.606 You know I'm coaching a professional rugby team. 00:18:48.646 --> 00:18:54.719 If you had told me 25 years ago I'm coaching the Waratahs and then I'd spent 10 years coaching the Brumbies, you know I would have laughed. 00:18:54.719 --> 00:19:00.683 So you've got to remind yourself of why you're in it and just remember to love it. 00:19:01.485 --> 00:19:04.161 That's right and I think it's an important point too. 00:19:04.161 --> 00:19:14.226 You just raised about your family stuff, and sometimes family comes second, which is unfortunate, and they copped the Sunday morning when you weren't at your best. 00:19:14.226 --> 00:19:23.665 But that is something that probably a lot of up-and-coming coaches don't probably appreciate to their inner the impact it has on professional coaching, on your family. 00:19:23.665 --> 00:19:25.761 It's a tough ask, isn't it? 00:19:25.761 --> 00:19:27.317 There's a lot of like in your case. 00:19:27.317 --> 00:19:35.585 It's moving around all over the show and you've got a family you've got to take with you, and it's the nature of that, is a stress which is not always seen. 00:19:35.585 --> 00:19:37.381 Is it in the public eye? 00:19:37.381 --> 00:19:42.763 You see the coach sitting in the box doing whatever, but sometimes how does that sit with you? 00:19:42.763 --> 00:19:44.104 How do you get the balance right? 00:19:44.104 --> 00:19:47.001 Or do you get the balance right with the family side of stuff? 00:19:50.974 --> 00:19:51.976 Yeah, balance right with the family side of stuff. 00:19:51.976 --> 00:19:52.357 Yeah, not always. 00:19:52.357 --> 00:19:52.678 Uh, that that's. 00:19:52.678 --> 00:19:52.838 That's. 00:19:52.838 --> 00:19:53.259 That's the reality. 00:19:53.259 --> 00:19:53.419 Um, it's. 00:19:53.419 --> 00:20:02.564 You know, you, you try and separate yourself and keep the laptop in the in the bag at home, but, uh, coaching is, is, is, it's all consuming, you know what I mean. 00:20:02.564 --> 00:20:04.608 Like for for the wife, for the kids. 00:20:05.596 --> 00:20:11.288 Um, thankfully, I've got an incredibly supportive wife, carla, and my daughters, you know, they're now 18 and 16. 00:20:11.288 --> 00:20:20.682 They've basically grown up around rugby union and around Saturday afternoons or they'll be at South or they'll be at Tuggeranong or the Bright Lights of Super Rugby. 00:20:20.682 --> 00:20:21.264 You know what I mean. 00:20:21.264 --> 00:20:25.920 So it's all they know and they love it, you know, and they're incredibly supportive. 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:32.806 But, yeah, they're the ones that see the really, really low moments and experience the low moments. 00:20:32.806 --> 00:20:33.349 You know what I mean. 00:20:33.349 --> 00:20:36.264 Obviously, leicester was really tough for us as a family. 00:20:36.264 --> 00:20:39.473 The girls loved the experience of living in Leicester. 00:20:39.473 --> 00:20:46.954 She went to an unbelievable school at Oakham School and then, like that, to tell them we're actually going back to Australia. 00:20:46.954 --> 00:20:52.563 That was really tough, really tough for them and it's been tough for a period of time, to be honest. 00:20:52.563 --> 00:21:02.803 So, yeah, you need to have a supportive family and you need to make sure that, whilst at times, as I said, they do come second, no one's more important. 00:21:03.445 --> 00:21:03.766 Correct. 00:21:03.766 --> 00:21:08.506 Do you have ways of dealing with that stress that you could pass on to coaches coming through? 00:21:08.506 --> 00:21:10.914 Like, how have

you worked through that Cause? 00:21:10.914 --> 00:21:12.842 It's difficult, right? 00:21:12.842 --> 00:21:17.886 Like, have you had ways of doing that or is it just time and experience which has helped? 00:21:18.006 --> 00:21:25.283 Yeah, certainly, time and experience helps the more, the more you experience it, and there's always stress in this game. 00:21:25.283 --> 00:21:33.968 Like you can be sitting second on the on the ladder Ben, ladder ben, and, and you've got the stress of wanting to stay there, um, and, and how do I get to first? 00:21:33.968 --> 00:21:41.407 Or you could be sitting second last and have the stress of trying to squeeze out a result to get off the bottom of the table. 00:21:41.407 --> 00:21:45.970 You know, there's always stress and pressure within, within this environment. 00:21:45.970 --> 00:21:52.847 I think, like anything, you need to talk to people and I think, men, we're probably getting better at it now than what we were, say, five or 10 years ago. 00:21:52.847 --> 00:21:55.931 You need to just say you know and you need to have your people that you know. 00:21:55.931 --> 00:21:57.298 We spoke about Chris Webb before. 00:21:57.298 --> 00:22:09.487 He'd be someone that I'd pick up the phone to and or he'd call me, you know, laurie Fisher, um, these sorts of people that you talk to, your wife and and um, and people that you really trust and value. 00:22:09.487 --> 00:22:11.029 And sometimes you've just got to unload. 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:11.730 It's like anything. 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:12.819 You just have to unload. 00:22:14.197 --> 00:22:20.665 Like I like to exercise, you know, and get in a sauna and that's you know, caring for yourself. 00:22:20.665 --> 00:22:22.080 I think that's really important. 00:22:22.080 --> 00:22:25.064 I remember talking to Anthony Seabold about it. 00:22:25.064 --> 00:22:29.515 You know I've done some PD with the Seabs over the years and that self-care is something that he spoke a lot about. 00:22:29.515 --> 00:22:32.124 You know I've done some pd with the siebes over the years and that that self-care is something that he spoke a lot about, you know. 00:22:32.124 --> 00:22:37.524 And then you know we tell the players to sleep well, eat well, train hard, recover well, do all these things. 00:22:37.524 --> 00:22:47.480 But as coaches and as staff, sometimes we live off three hours sleep, don't eat great um, forget about training I need to get my head in the laptop to look at this and don't exercise yourself. 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:55.164 So getting yourself in a routine where you are genuinely looking after yourself, because you know things can turn if you don't. 00:22:55.164 --> 00:22:58.843 So it's important that you have that self-care. 00:22:59.505 --> 00:23:10.654 Yeah, I think like just from my experience too that as a general rule, coaches can sort of lose their self-care quite quickly. 00:23:10.654 --> 00:23:14.282 Once they get the bug of coaching right, it sort of becomes all-consuming. 00:23:14.282 --> 00:23:18.638 Before you know it, you've been sitting at the laptop for six hours and everyone else is in bed. 00:23:18.638 --> 00:23:21.626 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:23:21.646 --> 00:23:22.147 Yeah, mate. 00:23:22.147 --> 00:23:28.135 And then you do that for 12 months and you've got access to the buffets on the road and that sort of thing. 00:23:28.135 --> 00:23:31.978 All of a sudden, you're 10 kilos heavier than what you were in January. 00:23:32.338 --> 00:23:32.999 That's not good. 00:23:32.999 --> 00:23:36.421 And then you just go oh well, I'm this far in, I might as well keep going. 00:23:36.421 --> 00:23:36.902 Is that right? 00:23:36.902 --> 00:23:37.622 Yeah? 00:23:37.762 --> 00:23:40.304 And then you've got to dig yourself out of the hole. 00:23:40.304 --> 00:23:40.824 That's right. 00:23:41.225 --> 00:23:42.866 That is absolutely right. 00:23:42.866 --> 00:23:51.072 Well, mate, it's actually ironic that we're sitting in the background is your personal gym at home, which is very impressive, mate. 00:23:51.072 --> 00:23:54.904 The man den downstairs is a very cool concept. 00:23:54.924 --> 00:23:55.846 I apologize to the listeners. 00:23:55.846 --> 00:24:01.207 I certainly I was trying to blur that out in the background, but my technical skills are not that high mate. 00:24:01.935 --> 00:24:19.534 Anyway, it is what it is, no mate, I think it's a little gold nugget in itself that that has become such a thing for you and you value the importance of looking after yourself and how that flows on to your profession that you would invest in making a good place at home where you can actually get away and and look after yourself, mate. 00:24:19.534 --> 00:24:20.556 I think it's awesome. 00:24:20.556 --> 00:24:33.000 Um, now I'm keen, dan, just to go back a little bit, because a lot of our coaches are obviously not at the highest end, but you didn't start your coaching career at the highest end. 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:44.437 You started at Wicklow Rugby Club in Ireland, just out of Dublin, and you went there as a player coach essentially, and, as I understand it, that's where you fell in love with the game. 00:24:44.437 --> 00:24:53.300 Why did you go and what did you get out of coaching like that at 25 years old, and how did that light you up? 00:24:53.300 --> 00:24:55.921 What did you take away from that awesome experience? 00:24:57.364 --> 00:24:59.496 Yeah, yeah, before Wicklow. 00:24:59.496 --> 00:25:13.477 So if I go back to when I was a kid, I said to you earlier on look, I grew up in North Queensland so I used to watch a lot of rugby league and I'd be sitting there before you get all the statistics back in the day and I'd be doing the tackle counts and that sort of thing and dad would be with me. 00:25:13.477 --> 00:25:16.686 Just, you know, thinking what are you doing that for, mate, like you're a bit strange. 00:25:16.686 --> 00:25:20.004 So I always had this bug to want to coach, even at school. 00:25:20.004

--> 00:25:39.185 You know, I went to Townsville Grammar and in grade 12, I coached the under 13s and then, anyway, not that many years later, I got an opportunity to go over to Wicklow as a player coach and as a 25-year-old when you're coaching 35-year-old tradesmen and blokes that have been around the block, you know and had played at a decent level. 00:25:39.185 --> 00:25:46.266 It was certainly a little bit daunting at times, but I think I just went in there and I think what I got right was I was just myself. 00:25:46.266 --> 00:25:48.801 I was like I'm not here to know everything. 00:25:48.801 --> 00:25:53.941 There's a couple of things we're going to do, boys, we're going to train hard. 00:25:53.941 --> 00:25:54.483 I'm going to get you fit. 00:25:54.483 --> 00:25:59.280 We'll be well organized and well planned and I reckon, off the back of being well planned and well organized and fit, then we'll win more games than we lose. 00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:05.499 And we ended up getting promoted, um, and that was a great outcome and a great result for for the club. 00:26:05.499 --> 00:26:10.168 But you know, the beauty of rugby union is you can go and play anywhere in the world. 00:26:10.374 --> 00:26:18.405 Just about these days and the friendships and the memories that that I still have now, I would go back as wallaby's assistant coach. 00:26:18.405 --> 00:26:23.104 Um, normally on a tuesday night, after we've had our test match tuesday, we'd have one that wednesday off in dublin. 00:26:23.104 --> 00:26:25.133 I'd get on the road and go down to wicklow. 00:26:25.133 --> 00:26:31.827 I've done that a number of times and there's 30 of the boys that I used to coach sitting in Phil Healy's with a Guinness in hand waiting to have a beer with. 00:26:31.827 --> 00:26:32.368 You know what I mean. 00:26:32.368 --> 00:26:34.622 It's just such such special times. 00:26:34.622 --> 00:26:51.148 But, um, I certainly got the bug there and, as I said early on, I think, the things around discipline and hard work, but making sure that we enjoy it, um, we got right back then as a 25 year old and there's still three things for things for me now that are critically important to any team that you coach. 00:26:52.657 --> 00:26:53.419 How did you approach? 00:26:53.419 --> 00:27:02.280 I know you said, just be yourself, but as a 25-year-old telling 35-year-olds to work harder and have discipline, did you get any pushback on that? 00:27:02.280 --> 00:27:04.801 Because that's tough for young coaches to be able to do that. 00:27:04.801 --> 00:27:06.185 Well, yeah, how did you do? 00:27:06.205 --> 00:27:06.245 it. 00:27:06.245 --> 00:27:13.982 I think that the best thing I did, ben, was I did it with them, so I didn't ask them to do anything that I didn't do myself. 00:27:13.982 --> 00:27:14.464 You know what I mean. 00:27:14.464 --> 00:27:19.704 So I, um, whilst I'd sit there and I'd have the whistle and I'd have the session plan in pre-season, anyway, I I did. 00:27:19.704

--> 00:27:23.678 I did the training with them and I think off the back of that, they respected that. 00:27:23.678 --> 00:27:32.700 I think if I had a sat back on the and on a seat on the sideline with a clipboard and a whistle as a 25-year-old and giving it to them, they probably wouldn't have liked that. 00:27:33.194 --> 00:27:43.922 But in pre-season I took the approach that, right, I need to lead from the front here, and off the back of that, did you earn their respect or whatnot? 00:27:43.922 --> 00:27:44.524 I'm not sure. 00:27:44.524 --> 00:27:49.782 But obviously once you get into games as a coach, it's just a little bit difficult, especially as a player coach. 00:27:49.782 --> 00:27:52.643 Right, I'll put my head in here, I'll pull back out. 00:27:52.643 --> 00:27:54.541 I've got a direct and coach and guide here. 00:27:54.541 --> 00:27:56.160 So getting that balance right. 00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:13.983 But I think throughout pre-season, the best thing I did was roll the sleeves up and get stuck into it with the likes of Cyril Armstrong, and these boys have you taken like an element of that through to your coaching currently Do you sort of not necessarily getting in and doing the pre-season cause? 00:28:14.003 --> 00:28:21.187 that would be a tough ask in a professional world but is there any element of that that you carry through to today's coaching? 00:28:22.334 --> 00:28:23.942 Yeah, I wouldn't last a minute with these boys. 00:28:23.942 --> 00:28:27.376 These days they are a big, fit, strong, powerful man. 00:28:27.376 --> 00:28:42.388 But I think you know you go back to that self-care side of things that I was talking about before and you've got to look after yourself and you need to set an example there and have standards personally. 00:28:42.388 --> 00:28:49.260 I think that's how you show it and lead from the front from that perspective these days. 00:28:49.260 --> 00:28:53.714 How you show it and lead from the front from that perspective these days. 00:28:53.714 --> 00:29:07.143 You know, I think you know if I was to sit there and not look after myself and be overweight and be lazy and sloppy, but then you know, do as I say but not as I do, sort of thing, I think that approach is short-lived yeah. 00:29:08.185 --> 00:29:14.459 Yeah, have you done any other sort of self-care stuff outside of the gym and the physical work? 00:29:14.459 --> 00:29:19.586 Do you recommend sort of emotional, mental work as well as a coach? 00:29:20.678 --> 00:29:21.521 I certainly recommend it. 00:29:21.594 --> 00:29:31.997 I haven't done anything professionally or overly structured, but certainly that's from when I first started coaching. 00:29:31.997 --> 00:29:44.250 Now, and and my wife Carla was the first one that spoke to me about emotional intelligence and and um, and that's not just from a coaching perspective, but that's from a relationship and and um, you know, just just like that that's. 00:29:44.250 --> 00:29:45.454 That's a harsh truth, isn't it? 00:29:45.454 --> 00:30:13.394 You know, and that, and she was the first person to really put me onto it and make it important for me and and I think, um, off the back of that, you soon work out that um, you know how you emotionally respect the feelings of other people, regardless of how you might feel at that particular time is is so important, you know, and just being able to have that ability to take a breath and pull back and be like, right, right, I'll just listen here, I won't say anything. 00:30:13.394 --> 00:30:22.082 When I first started coaching, my first reaction would have been to talk instead of listening and pulling back, and so I've never done anything. 00:30:22.082 --> 00:30:26.818 You know that's overly structured, but the importance of it is huge. 00:30:27.962 --> 00:30:28.403 I love that. 00:30:28.403 --> 00:30:36.181 Do you think you're like just what you said about Carla there, about her having the influence of you, that emotional intelligence? 00:30:36.181 --> 00:30:38.842 Do you think that's not a role? 00:30:38.842 --> 00:30:49.517 But do you think that's a really a wonderful thing for coaches to be able to have Someone that they can be there with a partner to the side that can offer them the opposite to what they're doing? 00:30:49.517 --> 00:30:50.658 Has that been a big one for you? 00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:56.823 Oh, massively, like honestly, I will often ask Carla what she thinks around certain things. 00:30:56.823 --> 00:31:00.327 You know, like obviously the tactics and the strategy and that sort of thing. 00:31:00.327 --> 00:31:20.305 She might pipe up every now and then and tell me that we've got to do this or we've got to do that, but around the off-field side of things and the the emotional side of things, um yeah, she's been a great support and, um, a great sounding board for me over over a long period of time. 00:31:20.325 --> 00:31:28.322 Yeah, very, very, uh, very, uh, fortunate, yeah, I find that sort of things are really, um, an amazing rabbit warren of stuff for coaches and often understated. 00:31:28.322 --> 00:31:43.266 I think the power of just that rock at home to, to just when you're stressed, when you're maybe not thinking as clearly or as unbiased as you can, to have someone to just able to vent and offer a neutral perspective, is important, isn't it? 00:31:44.417 --> 00:31:46.402 that's it, that's it, and sometimes you just said it. 00:31:46.402 --> 00:31:58.926 You know sometimes you need to vent and and and get things off your chest, but then then you also need that, that other voice or that person that you trust that can, that can help keep you on track and just be like okay, it's, it's, it's okay, you'll be fine. 00:31:58.926 --> 00:32:00.419 Have you thought about this? 00:32:03.995 --> 00:32:06.639 I often have a similar one too with my children too, dan. 00:32:06.639 --> 00:32:13.019 Like I actually find them great influences on practicing different styles of getting things across.

00:32:13.019 --> 00:32:17.765 Like I kind of think coaching is very similar to parenting and you've got to experiment. 00:32:17.765 --> 00:32:26.321 Massive Kids change over ages of life and you've got to redo the way you talk to them and you can't talk to them a certain way and do you find the same? 00:32:27.203 --> 00:32:28.667 Oh, definitely, definitely. 00:32:28.667 --> 00:32:30.481 Yeah, that's exactly it. 00:32:30.481 --> 00:32:38.005 It's a similar sort of conversation, like we were talking about schoolteachers just on the weekend. 00:32:38.005 --> 00:32:52.267 We just had a barbecue at home and the girls my daughters, are 18 and 16 and Carla and a mate of mine was around and we were talking about schoolteachers and you know, I love this schoolteacher, I love that schoolteacher, and I was just cooking the sausages, you know, and, and uh, and listening, and listening. 00:32:52.267 --> 00:32:53.128 But I was listening. 00:32:53.128 --> 00:32:56.664 I was like um, a really interesting topic, you know. 00:32:56.664 --> 00:33:04.726 And I said to them, I said I bet you I know why you love that schoolteacher, or you love this schoolteacher, and I said it'll come back to the care. 00:33:04.766 --> 00:33:15.534 I said that person had an interest in you as a person, first and foremost, and that teacher cared about you and off the back of that, and they all agreed, they agreed 100%. 00:33:15.534 --> 00:33:24.726 It wasn't because they're a great math teacher and they made them great at algebra, or they helped with their literature or helped writing an English paper or whatever it might be. 00:33:24.726 --> 00:33:25.859 It came back to you. 00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:31.159 And I think of the same with my own school teachers that I loved and adored, and it's coaches are exactly the same. 00:33:31.159 --> 00:33:32.662 Parents are obviously the same. 00:33:32.662 --> 00:33:39.131 They know that first and foremost is that your kids know that you're there for them to care for them and love them. 00:33:39.131 --> 00:33:49.143 Sometimes it's got to be tough love, but I think your players need to think the same way, or you need your players to think the same way that you're there for them as an individual, as a human being, first and foremost. 00:33:50.526 --> 00:34:01.570 Love that and I guess, as a leader, how do you find the balance between potentially being honest and direct in a high performance environment, yet still showing your care and showing genuine compassion? 00:34:01.570 --> 00:34:02.874 How does that balance? 00:34:08.666 --> 00:34:10.349 Yeah, it's challenging, there's no doubt. 00:34:10.349 --> 00:34:23.655 You have to be honest, and I certainly demand of myself that I give my players honest feedback, and what I'll do is I'll put myself in their shoes as the player. 00:34:23.655 --> 00:34:26.304 And what would I want from my coach in that particular time? 00:34:26.304 --> 00:34:28.362 And it always comes back down to the truth. 00:34:28.362 -->

00:34:37.065 You want the truth, you want to be told the truth, whether it's around selection or performance or field issues, whatever it might be. 00:34:37.065 --> 00:34:39.496 You, you want the truth, and, and sometimes you have to deliver that in a way. 00:34:39.536 --> 00:34:49.284 That's not always the most popular way, um, but they also need to know that, first and foremost, you got their back, um, and that takes time. 00:34:49.284 --> 00:35:05.324 It takes time to build those relationships and those connections, but your players need to know that you're there for them as a man, as a human being, more so or equally as you are as their rugby coach, and that's the carrot and the stick, isn't it? 00:35:05.324 --> 00:35:21.385 And the best coaches have got the ability to be able to know when to produce the stick okay, or when to put an arm around and give him a hug and give them that little bit of support that they need, whether it be off the field, whether it be on the field. 00:35:21.385 --> 00:35:29.822 I've had players in my office in tears over relationship breakdowns and that sort of thing, and players who I would not think would come and talk to me about that. 00:35:29.822 --> 00:35:39.545 But when they leave you know that you've done the right thing in terms of knowing that the door's open there and they feel comfortable to walk in and have that conversation with you. 00:35:40.596 --> 00:35:50.335 Yeah, I guess that's instant feedback for you that they feel like you care enough that they can be that emotional in front of yourself, right that's it, that's it, that's it. 00:35:51.302 --> 00:35:52.633 And I think that's when you know. 00:35:52.633 --> 00:36:10.546 You know, obviously, whilst it's a tough time for that particular person, you know that you've got the balance right there and it's so important that you know, whoever it is, whoever your leader is with, whatever you do, that, firstly, you know that they care for you have you had any misses on that, Any standout moments where you've gone thing? 00:36:10.566 --> 00:36:11.191 you know that they care for you. 00:36:11.191 --> 00:36:13.815 Have you had any misses on that, Any standout moments where you've gone? 00:36:13.815 --> 00:36:15.318 I won't be doing that again. 00:36:15.318 --> 00:36:16.884 That's made an impact. 00:36:18.195 --> 00:36:32.427 Yeah, there's times where you know you always geez, maybe I went a bit too hard there or, you know, maybe I was a little bit too soft, maybe you needed a little bit more tough love there than did I take the right approach? 00:36:32.427 --> 00:36:40.568 There's never a right or a wrong, but you'll always reflect and ask yourself whether you got it right or wrong. 00:36:40.568 --> 00:36:49.067 But I think for the most part there's certainly going to be players that will be like would this bloke, leave me alone? 00:36:49.067 --> 00:37:01.845 But as I always say to the boys and I say to them, I say, look, I'm only going to ride you on the field hard because I want you to be the best player you can possibly be, whatever it might be, whatever the fundamental skill might be. 00:37:01.845 --> 00:37:07.923 I'm going to challenge you and I'm going to make sure and you'll hear my voice ringing in your ears probably that night. 00:37:07.923 --> 00:37:09.948 But understand that it's coming from a good place. 00:37:09.948 --> 00:37:15.240 And then, when you're off the field, then the other side of it needs to take over. 00:37:16.423 --> 00:37:17.547 Yeah, I love it, mate. 00:37:17.547 --> 00:37:19.242 It's cool. 00:37:19.242 --> 00:37:21.463 It definitely sounds like parenting, isn't it? 00:37:21.463 --> 00:37:27.385 When you're weighing up whether you've been too soft or been too hard on the kids or your players? 00:37:27.385 --> 00:37:28.313 It sounds exactly the same. 00:37:28.313 --> 00:37:29.932 Yeah, that's it, I think, with coaching you too hard on the kids or your players, it sounds exactly the same. 00:37:29.885 --> 00:37:31.179 Yeah, yeah, that's it. 00:37:31.179 --> 00:37:37.480 I think with coaching, you've got the assistant coaches, who are like the big brother, and then you've got the head coach, who's like the dad. 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:38.802 You know what I mean? 00:37:38.802 --> 00:37:40.144 Yeah, yeah, that's right. 00:37:40.164 --> 00:37:41.186 It's parenting 101. 00:37:41.186 --> 00:37:58.117 Yes, well, there's so much to be said about like it's probably it's a cool thing to be a parent when you're also a coach, right, like because it actually forces you to actually see another side of you know, leading and helping people be the best versions of themselves. 00:37:58.117 --> 00:38:05.543 Because you're doing it 24 7, like when you get home you're not just playing playstation, you're actually got a secondary role. 00:38:05.563 --> 00:38:12.516 Yeah, yeah I've got a, that's it yeah, I've got a quote from you which sort of sums up what you just said. 00:38:12.516 --> 00:38:21.710 You said this a while back the time you invest with each individual in an organization will mean a lot to them and strengthen their connection to the organization. 00:38:21.710 --> 00:38:30.760 Is that something you still stand by, that sort of concept around the time and actually has a flow on effect to the wider organization? 00:38:32.970 --> 00:38:36.045 Definitely yeah, without a doubt. 00:38:36.045 --> 00:39:17.472 And being able to give any individual within the group so it might be Jake Gordon or Dave Parecki, who naturally they're senior players you're going to invest more time in them, but are you going to take the time out of your own day to give 10 minutes to a senior academy player or the youngest player within the group and make sure that they feel like they're valued and that they feel a part of it and that you know who they are, you know what they're doing, what their lives look like away from footy, but I think certainly investing in each individual is critical and it's time

consuming. 00:39:17.472 --> 00:39:20.710 It is Like you've got 30-odd staff. 00:39:20.710 --> 00:39:23.436 You've got 40-odd players. 00:39:24.526 --> 00:39:29.557 Pleasing 70 people from one day to the next is incredibly tough. 00:39:29.557 --> 00:39:37.731 But just making sure that you give them that it might even just be saying g'day and stop and ask them how did you play on the weekend? 00:39:37.731 --> 00:39:45.989 You know how'd your game go for their club or whatever it might be, but just again, just giving them that moment where to you it's water off a duck's back to them. 00:39:45.989 --> 00:40:11.209 It means so much and you need to remind yourself of that as a head coach or as a leader, because that banks up over time and as the relationships grow and time allows for it, those moments become bigger and bigger and bigger and all of a sudden you've got a group that know that they've got not just a head coach but a group of staff that genuinely are invested in them. 00:40:12.273 --> 00:40:16.655 Yeah, and it's just the reality, because I hear a lot of coaches say I just don't have time. 00:40:29.132 --> 00:40:30.974 Yeah, You've got to make it. 00:40:30.974 --> 00:40:39.461 You've got to make it right and making sure that you free up time at the right moments of days to be able to just be in and around the players and just be present. 00:40:39.461 --> 00:40:40.342 You know what I mean. 00:40:40.342 --> 00:40:49.813 You don't need to be front and center of the conversation, but just be present and be visible to them and not be tucked away in your office. 00:40:51.256 --> 00:40:55.997 Yes, drag yourself away from the laptop and be present and visible. 00:40:55.997 --> 00:41:05.738 Marker, that's coaching gold, like that's the sort of stuff which you don't get taught about that stuff when you're doing your level two, threes coaching, do you? 00:41:05.738 --> 00:41:14.018 This is the stuff which actually sells the technical stuff which you will teach better right Like this. 00:41:14.018 --> 00:41:22.333 The flow on effect is this that when you teach, you've got a engaged, invested audience because you've been present and you've been seen to be present. 00:41:23.494 --> 00:41:26.931 Yeah, yeah, that's it and that's that's something that I've had to. 00:41:26.931 --> 00:41:27.693 I've had to learn. 00:41:27.693 --> 00:41:33.070 You know, like I think when I first started coaching professionally at the Brumbies um, it was all about you. 00:41:33.070 --> 00:41:58.838 Just, you just want to earn their respect by being so well planned and organized and make sure your sessions and your drills and your coaching time is um is at the level that it needs to be at Um, but then over time it's like right, that's obviously important, but making sure that you, you take the time to um to get away from the laptop and and uh and enjoy each other's company at the right moment is just as important to the group. 00:41:59.980 --> 00:42:02.834 Yeah, what do you enjoy doing? 00:42:02.834 --> 00:42:05.233 What's your little ones you do with your players? 00:42:05.233 --> 00:42:10.775 Dan, Do you have any sort of go-to little things that you do that you just sort of say this is how I'm going to connect? 00:42:10.775 --> 00:42:14.556 I know some coaches just like handshakes or knuckles. 00:42:14.556 --> 00:42:16.552 Do you have anything specific you do that works? 00:42:21.744 --> 00:42:22.528 I don't have any special handshake. 00:42:22.528 --> 00:42:23.510 I remember scotty seo. 00:42:23.510 --> 00:42:24.434 He had about 35 handshakes. 00:42:24.434 --> 00:42:26.601 I was always intrigued on how, on how, he remembered them all. 00:42:26.601 --> 00:42:32.256 But um, no, as I said, you just want to be around the group, you know, and um, and make sure that you you have those conversations. 00:42:32.276 --> 00:42:44.800 I always like to make sure that your meetings start off with um a little lighthearted, you know, asking the players how the weekend was and trying to drag a story out of them or here or there, and then obviously connect with them one-on-one away. 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:50.236 You know, I think at the right time I like to have a beer with the boys and just relax. 00:42:50.236 --> 00:42:56.978 It's certainly not something where you're going out until all hours of the morning, but just after a game. 00:42:56.978 --> 00:43:10.032 You know, the dressing shed is such a special and unique environment and just being able to sit around and crack a beer, if they want to have a beer or a Pepsi, whatever it might be and just enjoy that moment. 00:43:10.032 --> 00:43:14.230 That is so special about the changing room and that's why I started coaching. 00:43:14.250 --> 00:43:16.392 To be honest, I never started coaching to be a pro. 00:43:16.392 --> 00:43:31.555 I only ever started coaching because I wanted to stay connected to the game and and I was scared that I would miss that, um, that dressing shed feel, where you celebrate the wins and and and you obviously commiserate and and and think hard about the losses. 00:43:31.555 --> 00:43:38.617 But, um, I think that's that's really important and that's where you can, when you can genuinely connect players and be like right, they've just gone to war. 00:43:38.617 --> 00:43:44.969 For you, well, maybe not war, but they've put themselves in some dark places for you and for your team. 00:43:44.969 --> 00:43:50.414 As head coach, now's your time to show them that you really appreciate it and respect it. 00:43:51.256 --> 00:43:56.965 Yeah, I love that, and it just leads into this quote I've got for you I don't coach for salary, I coach for trophies. 00:43:56.965 --> 00:43:59.208 The boys I coach for the dressing shed. 00:43:59.208 --> 00:44:00.849 You said that a while back. 00:44:00.849 --> 00:44:03.371 That's a great phrase. 00:44:03.371 --> 00:44:08.035 How do you coach the dressing for the dressing shed? 00:44:08.035 --> 00:44:10.177 Like, how do you implement

that? 00:44:12.077 --> 00:44:23.119 Um, I just love the feel of of, of singing the team song, you know like, with the blood, the sweat and the tears you shake hands, you give each other a hug, the jubilation of of. 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:23.965 There's so much that goes into it. 00:44:23.965 --> 00:44:32.356 You know yourself, mate you've played at this level what goes into a Monday to get ready for Tuesday, for Tuesday, to get ready for Wednesday, wednesday for Thursday. 00:44:32.356 --> 00:44:35.575 There's all the little things that people just do not see. 00:44:35.575 --> 00:44:44.172 They see the 80 minutes and the bright lights, but we see what the players put themselves through. 00:44:44.192 --> 00:44:46.660 Training these days is so tough, training is hard and you have to train hard if you want to be successful. 00:44:46.660 --> 00:44:47.626 It's as simple as that. 00:44:47.626 --> 00:45:07.952 So then, at the end of that 80 minutes on a Friday night or a Saturday night, whenever it might be, if you've got the privilege of being able to celebrate a win, then that, for me, is what it's all about Arm in arm, singing the team song, having real pride in one another and the performance that you've just put out, but also pride in the jersey and pride in the people that have worn it before you. 00:45:07.952 --> 00:45:12.916 That's, for me, is what rugby union's always been built on in my time. 00:45:13.744 --> 00:45:19.106 Yeah, and it's still like that, right, that's still a massive part of the game, right, yeah? 00:45:19.186 --> 00:45:20.311 definitely, mate, Definitely. 00:45:20.311 --> 00:45:36.490 There's always times where you just have to say to the S&C coaches right, our boys will park the protein shakes for now in the ice baths and we'll put a couple of twoies on ice and let the boys enjoy it A couple of twoies I'll tell you what the generation. 00:45:36.490 --> 00:45:41.193 These days they're a lot smarter around alcohol and choices and that sort of thing than certainly my generation was. 00:45:41.785 --> 00:45:46.625 Yeah, it's a big difference, right, it is a noticeable, palpable difference. 00:45:46.885 --> 00:45:51.117 Yeah, and I think this is probably one good thing of social media. 00:45:51.117 --> 00:45:53.010 Social media is everywhere. 00:45:53.010 --> 00:46:10.159 Obviously now, and I think a positive of that is, young men and and and women are, uh are really aware of the importance of physical health, mental health and and how how you go about making sure that you are healthy and and and they make better choices. 00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:14.912 You know, like, uh, the importance of exercise and, um, looking after yourself. 00:46:14.912 --> 00:46:29.677 Between the ears, and, yeah, it's there, uh, we didn't have that in the 90s, mate, or the early 2000s, and, yeah, and we did what we did, you know, but, um, these days, they certainly, yeah, they're a lot more clued on how do you have you adjusted over time with that? 00:46:29.925 --> 00:46:48.450 obviously not growing up with it yourself, or the, or because you were brought up in pubs, though right, that was your upbringing through pubs, and so how have you adjusted to that aspect, like the changing demographic and the people that are coming through as players, for you are very different mindsets than what you played with, right? 00:46:49.512 --> 00:46:52.753 Yeah, they are, I still think, at the right time and the right place. 00:46:52.753 --> 00:46:59.494 They still enjoy each other's company and some of them will have a drink doing it and some will not have a drink. 00:46:59.494 --> 00:47:04.572 I think it's it's it's it's been well planned and and making sure that you allow that time for a connection. 00:47:04.572 --> 00:47:07.367 It doesn't always need to be over a beer or or whatever. 00:47:07.469 --> 00:47:09.874 For me, connections are really important part of any team. 00:47:09.874 --> 00:47:23.038 Um, if you, if you know and feel connected to the person beside you, then you'll you go that little bit further, you'll go that extra yard and in the 78th minute, when you're defending your goal line, that really plays an important role. 00:47:23.038 --> 00:47:43.016 So I just think the whole connection piece and I don't think there's been a huge adjustment for myself in terms of I just let them know that if they want to at the right time, if they want to have a beer together and enjoy each other's company, then they're men, they've got that option or that choice to do so. 00:47:43.016 --> 00:47:48.815 Or if they want to go and do a completely different activity away from that, then that's on them. 00:47:48.815 --> 00:47:55.074 But one thing that we have always valued is making sure as a team that we feel connected both as players and as staff. 00:47:57.346 --> 00:48:02.077 It's an important feeling to get A, and not always an obvious way to do it right. 00:48:02.077 --> 00:48:05.355 There's often a million things you can do to get connected. 00:48:07.528 --> 00:48:09.193 Yeah, and you can't really force it. 00:48:09.193 --> 00:48:11.070 It's got to be organic. 00:48:11.070 --> 00:48:15.509 You can't pretend or fake it. 00:48:15.509 --> 00:48:16.311 Sydney's a bit, you know. 00:48:16.311 --> 00:48:17.313 You can't pretend or or fake it. 00:48:17.313 --> 00:48:18.555 Um, you know Sydney's a big city. 00:48:18.555 --> 00:48:25.974 You've got players that live one end of Sydney, live on the other end of Sydney and there's there's a fair amount of travel time in between that. 00:48:25.974 --> 00:48:42.518 But again, if you've got that team first mentality and that that mindset that you want to um, you want to do what's best for for the team and make that sacrifice that's needed, then regardless of where you live or what's required, if there's a group connection activity on, then you'll be there. 00:48:43.380 --> 00:48:44.221 Oh, mate, I love that. 00:48:44.221 --> 00:48:46.833 Such a good place too to actually

connect. 00:48:46.833 --> 00:48:54.262 There's a gazillion beaches you can get to right which certainly lend themselves to good connection Love it. 00:48:54.284 --> 00:48:56.115 That's it mate Over a meal, whatever it might be. 00:48:56.115 --> 00:48:56.316 Love it. 00:48:56.316 --> 00:48:57.485 That's it mate Over a meal, whatever it might be, love it. 00:48:57.826 --> 00:48:58.026 Dan. 00:48:58.026 --> 00:49:01.012 It's got to that time, mate, where I've got one more question for you. 00:49:01.012 --> 00:49:03.351 It's one we always sign off on. 00:49:03.351 --> 00:49:11.556 It's this what's one belief or practice that you have that you believe your peers would disagree with? 00:49:15.365 --> 00:49:16.931 Oh yeah, it's just a good question, mate. 00:49:16.931 --> 00:49:23.273 That's um, yeah, I I don't know if I don't know if everyone would disagree with it. 00:49:23.273 --> 00:49:26.340 Um, like, I, I think there's. 00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:39.112 You can be disciplined, you can be ultimate professionals, you can challenge and have conflict, but at the same point in time you can have fun doing it and you can like you can challenge and have conflict but at the same point in time, you can have fun doing it and you can still love doing it. 00:49:40.048 --> 00:49:43.171 And I think for me, you know whether there's disagreement with that or not. 00:49:43.171 --> 00:49:44.253 Maybe there isn't. 00:49:44.253 --> 00:49:45.992 I'm sure there are some coaches that are. 00:49:45.992 --> 00:50:01.510 But basically what I'm saying is that when you go to work, we've got the standards and the expectations and discipline that's required to ensure that the work's done at the level that we all expect of one another, but you can still enjoy it. 00:50:01.510 --> 00:50:07.177 And I think when you've got a team where the players drive, that that's really powerful. 00:50:07.177 --> 00:50:09.445 That's really, really powerful. 00:50:09.445 --> 00:50:12.715 And I think that's the exciting part for us at the Waratahs. 00:50:12.715 --> 00:50:24.858 You know we've made significant change across the first season Moving forward, now I want to start to take a step back and the players have got to take ownership of it. 00:50:24.905 --> 00:50:28.159 It doesn't mean you don't lead and coach as hard as you have in the past. 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:31.794 But the expectation now is everyone knows what we need from one another. 00:50:31.794 --> 00:50:39.764 Now the players have got to grab it and take ownership of it, and that's not just with the standards and the discipline, that's also with the fun and making sure that you have fun. 00:50:39.764 --> 00:50:51.259 I reckon that would be the mate, the big thing for me, that that some people may agree with and some people may not agree with standards, discipline, fun all together as one yeah that's it, mate. 00:50:51.338 --> 00:50:51.719 That's it. 00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:52.086 That's it. 00:50:52.086 --> 00:50:54.851 I think if you've got all three of those things, your team's in a good spot. 00:50:56.334 --> 00:50:58.617 Mate, I love it. 00:50:58.617 --> 00:50:59.579 There's definite value. 00:50:59.579 --> 00:51:08.434 It's an interesting one too around that discipline, because discipline, when you say that word, the connotations are often the negative right. 00:51:08.434 --> 00:51:12.516 But that's just how it's packaged and sold. 00:51:13.989 --> 00:51:19.471 It's just good daily habits, consistent daily habits that are at the level required. 00:51:19.471 --> 00:51:20.675 That's all it is. 00:51:20.675 --> 00:51:25.061 We're not asking them to invent electricity or do anything out of the ordinary here. 00:51:25.061 --> 00:51:25.525 You know what I mean. 00:51:25.525 --> 00:51:30.978 All we want is for them to just have good, consistent daily habits. 00:51:30.978 --> 00:51:47.537 And the reality is you'll be in the building for three or four hours and within that three or four hours just be the best pro you can possibly be and when you're not in the building, make good choices and understand that you always represent the organization and team that you're a part of. 00:51:49.728 --> 00:51:51.352 Oh, mate, that's a cracking finish. 00:51:51.352 --> 00:51:53.637 Love it, mate, Love it. 00:51:54.085 --> 00:52:17.811 Well Dan before you go, I'd just like to sum up the three little bits, the takeaways that I got from this conversation, mate, because it's been awesome, but I always like to just wrap up and just the ones that stuck out for me, and they are this people in the building, and I really loved it. 00:52:17.811 --> 00:52:27.927 I loved how you said it comes in with the first person when they walk through the door in the morning and it ends with the last person turning off the lights and I just thought it was a lovely concept around just the whole organization and the actions of the people in it. 00:52:27.927 --> 00:52:30.113 I just love that definition that you used. 00:52:30.855 --> 00:52:38.358 Number two, the importance you placed on self-care of coaches and as coaches set in the example. 00:52:38.358 --> 00:52:44.916 You don't have to do the pre-seasons like you once did, but you do have to just be aware of that and the importance of it. 00:52:44.916 --> 00:53:01.076 And you talked about consistent daily habits and for me, when I heard that, I thought that's the same for your coaching self-care practices, whether that's PD, like you're doing gym sessions, and your emotional intelligence, which your wife Carla has been big on improving in yourself. 00:53:01.076 --> 00:53:10.159 And number three is drag yourself away from the laptop, be present, be visible and these sort of actions. 00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:11.567 When you do that banks up. 00:53:11.567 --> 00:53:29.146 Over time, those moments get bigger and bigger and bigger and they flow onto all aspects of the organization and I think that's a lovely thing whether you're coaching at grassroots level or at a very big organization like yourself to remember that it's not always about just the catch pass. 00:53:29.146 --> 00:53:30.588 There's bigger parts to it. 00:53:31.451 --> 00:53:35.137 Dan mckella, thank you very much for joining us on the coaching culture podcast. 00:53:35.137 --> 00:53:36.179 It's been a pleasure, yeah, great thanks. 00:53:36.179 --> 00:53:36.780 Really enjoyed the chat. 00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:38.544 Ben and um Keller, thank you very much for joining us on the Coaching Culture podcast. 00:53:38.564 --> 00:53:39.345 It's been a pleasure, yeah, great Thanks. 00:53:39.345 --> 00:53:40.849 Really enjoyed the chat, ben. 00:53:40.849 --> 00:53:44.510 And thanks very much, mate, and yeah, good to catch up. 00:53:44.510 --> 00:53:45.855 Cheers brother.