Full Transcript for Long-Duration Energy Storage Is Ready. The Energy Markets Aren’t

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WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.629 As a community we've spent a century optimising for fuel. 00:00:04.049 --> 00:00:07.500 But what's so interesting is the energy transition is now defined by time. 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.980 And so the sun sets, the wind drops, demand peaks. 00:00:10.980 --> 00:00:15.060 We talk about flexibility, but markets do not know how to price time. 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:32.939 And that turns long duration storage from a technology question into an infrastructure investment and market design problem. 00:00:33.899 --> 00:00:37.259 Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. 00:00:37.770 --> 00:00:46.320 This is Climate Confident Stories and Strategies That Cut Emissions Episode 292, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery. 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:52.859 Today's guest, Julia Souder is CEO of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council. 00:00:53.549 --> 00:01:06.569 We look at why the technology is increasingly ready, why finance and market rules are now the bigger constraint and what China and other markets are already learning about deploying storage at scale. 00:01:07.379 --> 00:01:08.129 Let's dive in. 00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:11.010 Julia, welcome to the podcast. 00:01:11.010 --> 00:01:14.890 Would you like to tell people who haven't come across you before, who you are and what you do? 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:17.070 Tom, it's great to be back. 00:01:17.131 --> 00:01:18.691 Thank you so much for the opportunity. 00:01:18.811 --> 00:01:22.831 And I am the CEO of the Long Duration Energy Storage Council. 00:01:23.100 --> 00:01:33.600 We are a global trade association working across every ecosystem to promote and scale long duration energy storage solutions to reach the eight terawatt goal by 2040. 00:01:33.990 --> 00:01:36.570 But what's so exciting is that the need is there. 00:01:36.631 --> 00:01:37.740 The technologies are there. 00:01:37.771 --> 00:01:39.811 We just need more market access. 00:01:40.340 --> 00:01:52.099 And obviously storage, particularly long duration energy storage is required if we want to scale up the penetration of renewables on grids. 00:01:52.310 --> 00:01:58.340 So what starts to break if we scale renewables without scaling long duration energy storage? 00:01:58.653 --> 00:02:03.643 I think everything breaks because I think and, and, and I don't, I, I mean that full heartedly too. 00:02:03.643 --> 00:02:08.562 I mean, I, not only am I passionate about this, I really care because we, we really need this to make a difference. 00:02:08.562 --> 00:02:13.543 I think we're having an, an awakening to the, the role of AI and what it does for us. 00:02:13.543 --> 00:02:17.143 I think we're having an awakening for energy storage and how critical long duration storage is. 00:02:17.532 --> 00:02:25.413 I think it's fascinating having conversations with colleagues around the world that as a community we've spent a century optimising for fuel. 00:02:25.832 --> 00:02:29.282 But what's so interesting is the energy transition is now defined by time. 00:02:29.823 --> 00:02:32.763 And so the sun sets the wind drops, demand peaks. 00:02:32.763 --> 00:02:36.842 We talk about flexibility, but markets do not know how to price time. 00:02:37.052 --> 00:02:45.663 And I think this is where duration storage as an infrastructure asset really makes that resource, that shows how we can really provide that storage. 00:02:45.663 --> 00:02:49.842 The shifting and just like the, power and the heat behind the necessity. 00:02:49.842 --> 00:02:54.133 And I think this is why we're not just a clean energy story we're an energy security story. 00:02:54.733 --> 00:02:57.643 I think that's why it's so important that we are an energy security story. 00:02:58.650 --> 00:03:07.580 And when were talking about long duration energy storage at the start, you mentioned 8 10 hours, 12 hours, et cetera, et cetera. 00:03:08.629 --> 00:03:14.840 Had we been having this discussion two decades ago, eight minutes would've been long duration energy storage. 00:03:16.129 --> 00:03:17.539 Now we're at eight hours. 00:03:17.539 --> 00:03:20.180 Is that where it starts for you in terms of the definition? 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.020 Eight hours, and if so, in 10 years, would it be eight days? 00:03:24.069 --> 00:03:25.090 Is it a moving target? 00:03:25.735 --> 00:03:26.906 That's a really good question. 00:03:26.906 --> 00:03:29.156 And I'd say it does start for us at eight hours. 00:03:29.186 --> 00:03:31.705 It's kind of the bridge between short duration, which we need. 00:03:31.756 --> 00:03:41.195 But we also need to showcase that we are having more and more instances where we need energy shifting for multiple hours, multiple days, and multiple weeks. 00:03:41.195 --> 00:03:47.175 And so this shifting as we continue to build out the infrastructure and, and deal with the different pressure points I think will evolve. 00:03:47.445 --> 00:03:50.506 But I think what's really important is can the markets evolve with this? 00:03:50.536 --> 00:03:52.605 And we have the technologies, that's not a problem. 00:03:52.605 --> 00:03:53.806 The technologies are there. 00:03:53.966 --> 00:03:59.013 It's really just do we have the, markets and the payment structures to pay for all the services that they provide. 00:04:00.711 --> 00:04:01.211 And do we? 00:04:01.943 --> 00:04:02.513 Have the markets? 00:04:02.513 --> 00:04:02.782 No. 00:04:03.052 --> 00:04:05.693 In some places around the world we do, but not everywhere. 00:04:05.693 --> 00:04:11.423 And I think that's one of the biggest barriers to demonstrating that the just enormous scale that we need. 00:04:11.423 --> 00:04:18.632 We're, we're deploying, we have technologies that are commercially available and that are now at the gigawatt hour stage. 00:04:18.632 --> 00:04:29.882 We, we actually have shown that there, but let's see, in 2025 there was 15 gigawatt hours of long duration storage installed and that was 49% over the

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last year. 00:04:29.882 --> 00:04:33.783 So I mean, we're already seeing that we're having this deployed because markets are having the right signals. 00:04:34.173 --> 00:04:41.603 We had the LDES Council have shown on our project tracker that we've got 9.2 gigawatts of installed global capacity in 2026. 00:04:41.603 --> 00:04:47.663 So we're showing this growth, but you're seeing where the trends are because those are the markets that are supporting long direct storage. 00:04:47.723 --> 00:04:54.892 They're competing either capacity payments or they're competing, they're providing value for the time that we provide. 00:04:54.983 --> 00:04:56.452 And ancilliary service benefits. 00:04:56.523 --> 00:04:59.072 You're seeing this in the United Kingdom, you're seeing this in Australia. 00:04:59.322 --> 00:05:00.973 You're seeing this in some states in the US. 00:05:01.192 --> 00:05:08.153 But we need to see this kind of become a lot larger to really get the enormous benefits and savings that LDES can provide over a period of time. 00:05:08.213 --> 00:05:16.343 And when we do deploy this 140 terawatt hours of LDES, you can get 540 billion US dollars a year in savings. 00:05:16.432 --> 00:05:25.702 So yes, you pay upfront costs, but the savings comes, really quickly afterwards because you have a market set up and you have a payment scheme that can really provide all the benefits. 00:05:26.451 --> 00:05:30.401 What then gets more expensive when countries wait too long? 00:05:30.401 --> 00:05:33.161 Because most countries so far are waiting too long. 00:05:33.161 --> 00:05:38.440 You have to think when there's only those few countries you mentioned who are putting policies in place to support long duration. 00:05:40.117 --> 00:05:43.509 I think affordability is a global crisis. 00:05:43.509 --> 00:05:50.529 I mean, this has been a topic that, every community is facing because of higher prices, inflation and, the volatility that everyone's feeling. 00:05:50.980 --> 00:05:58.269 I think what we have at our, at our fingertips and we can start working on is, is policy creation to really help bring costs down. 00:05:58.300 --> 00:06:05.610 And so whether we've been deploying long duration storage solutions behind the meter we're working with communities microgrids to really show benefits. 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:13.872 And so the savings, so this can help provide the, story and the narrative to showcase how you could bring this on onto grid infrastructure and grid components. 00:06:13.963 --> 00:06:18.673 And again, I think we've been showcasing the countries where we have market solutions that work. 00:06:18.862 --> 00:06:25.872 Then the savings provided that this then gives some sense of security that they could do the same thing or also adjust markets so that they can provide more value. 00:06:26.202 --> 00:06:37.002 We're not asking to recreate the wheel, we're just saying utilise existing infrastructure components, markets, and then really then account for the benefits of long door share storage solutions as a grid asset. 00:06:38.704 --> 00:06:46.399 Okay, tell me a little bit about what's happening in China, because I know you guys went on a recent to China there. 00:06:46.899 --> 00:06:48.548 I read a release about that. 00:06:48.548 --> 00:06:53.738 But for people listening, China is often perceived as a little bit of a black box. 00:06:53.978 --> 00:07:05.709 So what's happening in the LDES space in China, because I know in terms of the renewable deployment there, it's amazing what they're doing in terms of wind and solar and in terms of grid infrastructure as well. 00:07:05.978 --> 00:07:07.942 So what's happening in the LDES space in China? 00:07:08.721 --> 00:07:19.432 It was so fascinating to be in China to really understand how it's happening on the ground, and it was so motivational to be at this Chinese energy storage conference with our partners. 00:07:19.461 --> 00:07:29.110 And to see over 250,000 attendees working on energy storage and of all types and all durations, and to see projects up and running. 00:07:29.201 --> 00:07:41.317 We were able to go to a couple of our members' facilities and actually stand in Rongke's hundred megawatt hour vanadium flow plant across the street from a coal plant. 00:07:41.317 --> 00:07:48.487 And the grid operators were there optimising the long duration storage solution to offset the coal plant. 00:07:48.487 --> 00:07:50.827 And it was in a city centre next to gas station. 00:07:50.827 --> 00:08:04.548 So the safety elements were really huge, but just studying in a real world working facility that was providing LDES solutions, that was proving itself and already starting to build construction on the, the scale of the next phase to another a hundred megawatt hours was pretty amazing. 00:08:04.548 --> 00:08:19.108 And just to see the scale of opportunities with zones that do support, the infrastructure of industrial hubs to build the, the different components of long duration storage, but then also to really support the jobs to like then, build this out in different communities. 00:08:19.387 --> 00:08:24.608 It was fascinating to learn just the evolution of the market policies that have supported long duration storage. 00:08:24.887 --> 00:08:29.507 Inside China, they've been working a lot on short duration, really using this to help with grid mitigation. 00:08:29.778 --> 00:08:37.008 But they saw early on because of the enormous amount of renewable energy integration that they had to have long duration stores to help fill in the gaps. 00:08:37.128 --> 00:08:44.778 And they created policies that are very strong to help the market signals in the different provinces and then also with the federal government, like to have this synergy. 00:08:44.778 --> 00:08:48.258 And so there's different types of payments for long duration services. 00:08:48.307 --> 00:08:57.177 Not just capacity, but resource adequacy and flexibility components and being able to,

compete on the grid and have services in conjunction with existing assets. 00:08:57.337 --> 00:08:58.628 It's been remarkable to see. 00:08:58.628 --> 00:09:04.378 We have a Energy Vault has a gravity project there that has been providing services and at this scale is enormous. 00:09:05.077 --> 00:09:12.258 Again, you're seeing, gigawatt hours and we're seeing, deployments of lots of plants using a lot of robotics and energy efficiency really well. 00:09:12.827 --> 00:09:17.778 What all is also exciting is that China's not looking at one size fits all or one solution to fits all. 00:09:17.778 --> 00:09:25.363 It really understands the diversity of needing different, components, different energy solutions, especially within long duration to meet different areas. 00:09:25.393 --> 00:09:33.332 And I think this was very exciting to see that you really need to diversify the portfolio to gain all the different benefits from the various long duration storage technologies. 00:09:33.753 --> 00:09:36.302 I think what also is exciting in China is the partnerships. 00:09:36.552 --> 00:09:48.972 Just seeing that the synergies of how do we, continue to look at creativity and supply chains looking at different types of ways to be more effective and efficient and work with partners within China, but also externally as well. 00:09:48.972 --> 00:09:54.245 So, a very, collaborative, I think mindset was really seen about what's available, what's been working on. 00:09:54.472 --> 00:10:02.743 And then there was also a great kind of supportive, the technologies that have been around for 20, 30 years and then how to share information to even make them more effective and efficient. 00:10:02.743 --> 00:10:13.863 So it was a great learning experience for our members in China, but also our members that came to China to really understand the ecosystem and how can other countries really learn from what's working well and what's not working well. 00:10:42.675 --> 00:10:43.815 And what can they learn from that? 00:10:43.845 --> 00:10:47.595 What, what lessons were you able to take away from that visit to China? 00:10:47.595 --> 00:10:52.605 You know what does China seem to understand about storage deployment that other markets are still figuring out? 00:10:53.167 --> 00:11:05.844 I think China has done a great job of looking at what's been working around the world and not working in various market constructs and their new 15 five year plan, they've laid out specifically how they can spell out different payment schemes for long duration storage. 00:11:05.844 --> 00:11:12.174 And they're testing them and they're willing to work through modifications within these five years to say, this worked, this doesn't work. 00:11:12.174 --> 00:11:15.714 So that flexibility within the policy creation, I think is really helpful. 00:11:15.934 --> 00:11:24.874 They're also just willing to really kinda have that collaboration with the provinces and, the federal government, just trying to see how the synergies work and then kinda given the right authorities. 00:11:24.874 --> 00:11:30.514 I think this is what we're seeing in Australia has been really beneficial as a public-private partnership. 00:11:30.544 --> 00:11:43.044 And we're seeing this in Spain as well with the government helping finance, some of the projects to like get them to the scale and then also, or like really understanding the cap and floor or, just setting the right parameters with some flexibility. 00:11:43.344 --> 00:11:53.700 And they're also seeing then the market structure is really giving those strong signals that there's a market for long duration energy storage to perform and that it will be there, not just for two years, but five years and longer. 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:58.524 And I think that certainty really helps with demonstrating how long duration storage are bankable products. 00:11:58.946 --> 00:12:00.566 That distinction matters. 00:12:00.956 --> 00:12:06.146 This is starting to look less like a technology race and more like a market design problem. 00:12:06.746 --> 00:12:14.876 The hardware and work deployment follows revenue certainty, which makes the range of technologies much more interesting. 00:12:15.100 --> 00:12:21.251 And your case studies on the website include different technologies. 00:12:21.671 --> 00:12:26.021 Technologies might be a big word here for rocks, sand, air, 00:12:27.837 --> 00:12:28.407 It's crazy. 00:12:29.037 --> 00:12:32.217 Low cost materials, very safe, low cost. 00:12:33.731 --> 00:12:35.502 flow batteries, as you mentioned with Rongke. 00:12:35.502 --> 00:12:35.792 Yeah. 00:12:35.891 --> 00:12:38.696 What, what do those examples tell us about the real shape of the market? 00:12:39.515 --> 00:12:44.958 I think it's fascinating because we're showing that there's a, a huge need with industrial customers, with data centres. 00:12:44.988 --> 00:12:50.538 They want to own and operate or have long duration storage assets on site because provide savings. 00:12:50.908 --> 00:12:53.863 We're seeing that, these are low cost materials that are available. 00:12:53.893 --> 00:12:55.770 They do not have supply, chain constraints. 00:12:55.770 --> 00:12:58.860 They can really become accessible less than five years, less than two years. 00:12:58.860 --> 00:13:00.090 They can be built in a year. 00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:03.010 I think this has been really helpful and the savings that are provided. 00:13:03.350 --> 00:13:06.440 These are technology solutions again, that are, are, are proven. 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:08.360 It's just we need the, the bankability piece. 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:17.477 And I think that's what we're demonstrating on our, you know, with Heineken and, having Bryn Miller and we've just got, these kind of like great examples of showing that there's these solutions. 00:13:17.857 --> 00:13:21.910 It's also demonstrating that there's, the infrastructure follows the right policy signals. 00:13:22.012 --> 00:13:30.140

We're seeing that these projects are working in certain parts of Europe and the US because they were able to have great deal flow and contracts. 00:13:30.290 --> 00:13:41.700 I think the other big thing about this is that it's really demonstrating that, the timeline for this like asset class is there and that we just really need to have the mindset that it's not really the cost. 00:13:41.710 --> 00:13:46.960 I think, I imagine early at the beginning time is a piece of this and that they're getting the resources and the cost saving some time. 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:48.970 Not just the cost of power, the cost of heat. 00:13:49.660 --> 00:13:55.550 I think what's really important that you're seeing is that the case studies are demonstrating that these are investments. 00:13:55.550 --> 00:13:56.870 These are not just like bets. 00:13:56.870 --> 00:13:58.610 This is actually like part of their asset class. 00:13:58.610 --> 00:14:00.740 I think that's important to see'cause you're getting the savings. 00:14:01.020 --> 00:14:07.120 You're getting, again, just the, the access to, providing the economic value, which I think is what's great about long duration storage. 00:14:08.108 --> 00:14:08.438 Okay. 00:14:08.438 --> 00:14:14.288 And are there any particular examples that best show that LDES is already practical and not just theoretical? 00:14:14.654 --> 00:14:15.074 Oh yeah. 00:14:15.224 --> 00:14:15.914 I mean, we have a bunch. 00:14:16.814 --> 00:14:20.594 We have a, on our website, we've got a project tracker that really demonstrates around the world. 00:14:20.594 --> 00:14:25.714 You can see these, 9.2 gigawatts deployed, but you can also see that you're looking at Rio Tinto. 00:14:25.814 --> 00:14:28.034 They have a project that, they're working with thermal energy stores. 00:14:28.034 --> 00:14:31.894 And Rondo, you've seen what Noon energy has done with the data centres and with Meta. 00:14:32.464 --> 00:14:34.844 And these are a, it's a gigawatt pipeline. 00:14:34.844 --> 00:14:38.677 You're seeing form energy with Google on their 300 megawatt project. 00:14:38.727 --> 00:14:42.087 So again, we're these contracts are getting signed because there's a need. 00:14:42.087 --> 00:14:47.027 And I think the other big piece is that, it's really just showing that there's the value add. 00:14:47.027 --> 00:14:51.497 We're addressing the time flexibility components, but we're also adding a lot of other assets as well. 00:14:51.497 --> 00:15:05.507 And I think this is why long duration storage is so critical for providing the value add is that we can, again, touch every industry, whether you are PepsiCo or Lay's or looking for a data centre, we, have a solution to provide the savings. 00:15:06.798 --> 00:15:07.008 Nice. 00:15:07.008 --> 00:15:13.338 And obviously this shows that this isn't just one technology looking for a problem. 00:15:13.338 --> 00:15:15.858 It's a system need with multiple solutions. 00:15:16.797 --> 00:15:17.397 Exactly. 00:15:17.427

--> 00:15:21.837 It's a category that you can choose from in your toolkit to make sure you're addressing what you particularly need. 00:15:22.107 --> 00:15:24.837 And I think that's the reason why there's no silver bullet. 00:15:24.897 --> 00:15:27.147 You have lots of great opportunities. 00:15:27.197 --> 00:15:30.847 Again, the, toolkit to address what you need to have, which I think is super powerful. 00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:32.340 Okay. 00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:38.430 And where does long duration storage solve something that short term batteries simply can't. 00:15:39.725 --> 00:15:40.685 There's a variety of ways. 00:15:40.685 --> 00:15:56.020 I mean, if you're looking at the thermal energy storage, when you're seeing like steam being turned into around the clock power or heat, you're looking at rocks and salts providing, the input for, the 1800 degree Celsius need to address that, a new type of generation. 00:15:56.300 --> 00:16:03.450 You're also looking at just the fact that we have this short duration can really cover like four, six hours. 00:16:03.450 --> 00:16:13.520 And then if you really wanna see the value of over 8, 10, 24 you get a, different skillset and of the long duration storage of not needing to recharge every hour. 00:16:13.650 --> 00:16:19.360 You, you have charged up over the time, so you have this capacity to provide value for a longer period of time. 00:16:19.597 --> 00:16:40.460 I think one more piece that also is interesting is we have some members who are working with different customers in industrial space and data centres who have existing assets like a natural gas plant or a peaker plant online, but they're bringing long duration storage next to it so they don't have to use it or run it when such high costs are there and they can have long duration storage also mitigate the ups and downs and maybe even pair with solar. 00:16:40.730 --> 00:16:47.690 It's that diverse portfolio that really brings together additional benefits of what the flexibility of the different LDES solutions can provide. 00:16:47.930 --> 00:16:59.270 I think that's also really important to see is like how long duration storage can address volatility in a variety of different definitions, because it's really providing a solution that solves multiple problems. 00:17:00.227 --> 00:17:03.167 Okay, so short duration batteries are like the fridge. 00:17:03.407 --> 00:17:06.257 Where LDES is, the freezer and the pantry. 00:17:06.527 --> 00:17:08.165 You need both, but they solve different problems. 00:17:08.465 --> 00:17:09.096 I love that. 00:17:09.115 --> 00:17:09.566 Yes, Tom. 00:17:10.155 --> 00:17:10.560 that's great. 00:17:13.492 --> 00:17:16.192 And a lot of people hear storage and think electricity. 00:17:16.583 --> 00:17:18.232 How important is heat in the LDES story? 00:17:19.867 --> 00:17:21.127 Just as equally as important. 00:17:21.194 --> 00:17:23.561 We've got power and heat are essential. 00:17:23.561 --> 00:17:27.311 I mean, that's how

we touch every single industry and the entire ecosystem. 00:17:27.582 --> 00:17:30.701 And many of our technologies can provide inertia. 00:17:30.821 --> 00:17:33.815 They can offset what a fossil fuel plant. 00:17:34.115 --> 00:17:39.275 They can again, provide all these different toolkits and ancillary services at extremely low cost. 00:17:39.847 --> 00:17:51.188 Okay, and is the bigger appeal, emissions reduction, cost control, reliability, avoiding major process changes, all of the above. 00:17:51.398 --> 00:17:52.148 Something else entirely. 00:17:53.082 --> 00:17:53.981 All of the above. 00:17:54.251 --> 00:17:56.261 I think it, again, depends on the customer's needs. 00:17:56.422 --> 00:18:07.062 And that's what the unique value is of the LDES Technology Solutions, is that we have, local resources that can be utilised and repurposed by providing, different types of resources of long duration storage technologies. 00:18:07.062 --> 00:18:12.372 So I think that's the benefit, is that some companies want emissions reductions and low cost. 00:18:12.372 --> 00:18:16.572 Other companies want low costs and they want a different type of metric for supply chain. 00:18:16.602 --> 00:18:18.682 Others want, three or four boxes. 00:18:18.682 --> 00:18:28.892 And so you can wrap these deal flows and these value packages with long duration energy storage solutions, which is again, why it's so exciting to see that the technologies are here. 00:18:28.942 --> 00:18:35.182 It's really just making sure we have the market and the finances to, really support the bankability of what long duration storage can provide. 00:18:36.236 --> 00:18:41.246 Okay, and if LDES can save money system wide, why is it still so hard to finance? 00:18:42.398 --> 00:18:45.488 Because we don't have all the right market components and criteria. 00:18:45.638 --> 00:18:49.898 I mean, for example, in California, resource adequacy only goes up to four hours. 00:18:49.928 --> 00:18:52.538 If it went to eight or 12, be a game changer overnight. 00:18:52.817 --> 00:18:56.048 We are seeing more legislation support this and given mandates. 00:18:56.048 --> 00:19:01.424 If you see Virginia recently, the state has over 600 data centres, I think some of the largest in the world. 00:19:01.424 --> 00:19:03.375 It's in the capacity and the concentration. 00:19:03.805 --> 00:19:19.765 But what was really exciting is that just this year, Virginia, like set a standard for 4.5 gigawatts by 2040 of long duration storage and even set out 10 hour plus, 24 hour plus to demonstrate, having those market signals for different technologies provide different values. 00:19:20.015 --> 00:19:25.355 We're seeing more states in the United States, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Massachusetts, speak to this more. 00:19:25.654 --> 00:19:35.625 And we have a, a coming report on ISO New England that also shows when you're looking at different markets, how can long duration storage provide solutions to, different constraints on the system. 00:19:35.985 --> 00:19:39.875 And we're, looking at what PGMs working on with their capacity conversations. 00:19:40.174 --> 00:19:53.390 And, we've been doing a lot of work with, I mentioned earlier the markets in UK and Australia, and we've also published a paper in India on, on public policy of how policies can really help address the need for long duration storage. 00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:57.890 India has over 250 gigawatts of renewable energy deployed up and running. 00:19:57.900 --> 00:20:01.120 Gujurat has some of the largest in the country and the state. 00:20:01.120 --> 00:20:11.990 And so we've been working with Gujurat and the federal government of like, how can we help build not only procurement criteria, but also market criteria to really provide the value in the savings to customers. 00:20:12.019 --> 00:20:23.960 And this has been really exciting just to see the requests coming in for partnership of how to really start expanding market criteria and procurement to really support the values that long duration and storage solutions can provide. 00:20:25.331 --> 00:20:37.855 Virginia is one thing, but Ireland is probably even more extreme of an example, because about 22% of the Irish electricity grid is used by data centres. 00:20:37.855 --> 00:20:38.833 Just data centres, 00:20:39.133 --> 00:20:39.673 Amazing. 00:20:39.715 --> 00:20:41.065 of the entire grid. 00:20:41.934 --> 00:20:46.279 Have you had any talks with the Irish government or Irish policy makers around this? 00:20:46.717 --> 00:20:47.227 Yes. 00:20:47.227 --> 00:20:50.336 Actually my team is, is, they're in Europe this week. 00:20:50.386 --> 00:21:05.576 We had some meetings in Finland working with one of our partners, Euro Electric and working with the utilities in Europe and also having like meetings with ministers in Ireland specifically on long duration storage because of the enormous need that they have. 00:21:05.767 --> 00:21:15.907 Also because they don't want to be in the same category of what happened with the UK with the billions of pounds lost with curtailment offshore wind and have that happen in Scotland as well, so in Ireland. 00:21:16.507 --> 00:21:21.106 And so we're really wanting to make sure that that Irish government, they did a recent procurement, for storage. 00:21:21.227 --> 00:21:22.576 It focused on four hour. 00:21:22.596 --> 00:21:32.717 And even we've been working with them and the utilities Eirgrid to really look at the benefits and have a greater understanding of what long duration storage can provide with the 8, 12, 24, 48. 00:21:32.836 --> 00:21:43.039 And so we're excited to see this next stage of procurement to really support the expansion of long duration storage market because it is, a huge, wonderful example of where we can add value. 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:45.779 And I think it's also gonna help set precedent in other parts of Europe. 00:21:46.966 --> 00:21:47.416 Okay. 00:21:47.416 --> 00:21:54.615 What do you think has to

change so investors see LDES as infrastructure as opposed to, I don't know, risky climate tech? 00:21:56.008 --> 00:22:01.678 I think one of the biggest bottlenecks is that it's not technical, it is financial, but it's a solvable problem. 00:22:02.067 --> 00:22:05.668 And so we need to really look at total project cost. 00:22:06.038 --> 00:22:12.087 Long duration storage assets are 30 year, 40 year, 50 year multiple years with no fuel price exposure. 00:22:12.278 --> 00:22:15.548 They've provide capacity, resiliency, congestion relief. 00:22:15.577 --> 00:22:21.888 I mean, storage as a transmission asset is a whole nother market piece that is, debated, but also could be, seen as great congestion relief. 00:22:22.107 --> 00:22:26.248 And that we need to get, again, those market criteria pieces for multi-day reliability. 00:22:26.868 --> 00:22:35.248 And when you look at just the whole project cost, not just upfront CapEx you can see how much the use cases become a different kind of factor. 00:22:35.398 --> 00:22:42.661 Also we've been working with many members and banks and various financial institutions of looking at how do you model a long duration storage? 00:22:42.990 --> 00:22:48.431 And we're also showing that costs are projected to fall over 40% by 2030. 00:22:48.621 --> 00:23:01.341 As we continue to bring, more long duration storage to market as we continue to commercialise and again scale we have a lot of projects that are no longer at like the five megawatt 10 megawatt, these are gigawatt hours, and that's already demonstrating value to additional funders. 00:23:01.391 --> 00:23:10.161 If you asked me this Tom two years ago, I think it would've been really difficult to demonstrate, how long duration storage is bankable with, just, maybe 10 or 11 examples. 00:23:10.161 --> 00:23:13.551 Now we have, hundreds of examples and we have big examples. 00:23:13.611 --> 00:23:18.571 The data centres, the growing need with, power and the heat, the industrial customers ports. 00:23:18.571 --> 00:23:20.149 I mean, the whole push on electrification. 00:23:20.770 --> 00:23:28.411 If this has just completely changed the dial, I I'd like to joke that, we're no longer at the, the knife sets or the tipping point or the inflexion point. 00:23:28.411 --> 00:23:34.791 We are right here, like at, we're ready just to start like really going up that hockey stick because we have the solutions. 00:23:35.041 --> 00:23:47.911 We have, a lot of the opportunities to make the change in the markets and it's now just really motivating and energising the key decision makers that it's almost a bigger risk if they don't invest in LDES now because the costs will be even higher. 00:23:47.971 --> 00:23:57.591 And I think now we've gotten a lot more data points to demonstrate and a lot more than the customer's needs, validating how critical long duration storage is to provide long duration movement forward. 00:23:57.681 --> 00:24:03.351 And that builds on the revenue certainty that we get with the policies and the, the contracts that we're seeing go forward. 00:24:03.711 --> 00:24:07.280 Put those pieces together and the paradox is pretty stark. 00:24:07.821 --> 00:24:11.541 The technology risk is falling faster than the institutional risk. 00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:14.151 The hardware is increasingly proven. 00:24:14.691 --> 00:24:19.516 The harder part is getting markets, finance and grid practise to move with it. 00:24:20.750 --> 00:24:24.259 and what's been harder than expected in scaling LDES? 00:24:25.392 --> 00:24:28.872 I think just demystifying that it's not 10 years away, it's here. 00:24:28.902 --> 00:24:30.912 I mean, just breaking down some of the barriers. 00:24:31.192 --> 00:24:43.782 And the fact that, LDES does does provide, we have technologies that can provide inertia, that can provide, the flexibility, the load falling, like all these pieces that you need to make the infrastructure work that LDES is an infrastructure class. 00:24:44.082 --> 00:24:46.991 I think it's just a cultural mindset. 00:24:46.991 --> 00:24:49.721 I think tech, terminology and then I think it's just a trust piece. 00:24:49.772 --> 00:24:56.602 As grid operators start to, play with this more and understand how it's operating on their system and get comfortable with long duration storage. 00:24:56.602 --> 00:25:02.792 Now we have deployed projects up and running and there's data to prove that there's value in long duration storage. 00:25:02.852 --> 00:25:10.292 I think now that we're at this part where there's a lot more information and trust being built, I think this will really help deploy long duration storage faster. 00:25:10.352 --> 00:25:12.332 Especially because this long just one country. 00:25:12.602 --> 00:25:20.961 This is a global phenomenon where as we continue to address, the constraints of time, how does long duration storage provide the flexibility become a, huge asset. 00:25:22.364 --> 00:25:25.984 And you personally, where have you changed your mind over the last few years? 00:25:27.378 --> 00:25:28.188 That's a great question. 00:25:29.567 --> 00:25:33.228 I'm still motivated and passionate as ever about the critical role of long duration storage. 00:25:33.528 --> 00:25:47.478 I think some of the realities of just how hard this is in some areas just because of the layers of either bureaucracy or traditional concept that we're really trying to modernise or even just leapfrog or evolve. 00:25:47.898 --> 00:25:49.878 And I think it's just removing some of the biases. 00:25:49.908 --> 00:26:00.648 I've been so inspired by many countries whether it's in, in East Asia or on the African continent or South America, even in like rural communities, US and Europe. 00:26:00.648 --> 00:26:10.488 It's the, the conversations have changed and I think it's just great to see there's so much innovation around the policies and the connective tissue, what a long duration storage can provide. 00:26:11.184 --> 00:26:11.575

Okay. 00:26:11.575 --> 00:26:17.120 And looking 3, 5, 10 years ahead, what does real progress look like? 00:26:17.875 --> 00:26:21.026 I, I think a 10 year is difficult to do. 00:26:21.026 --> 00:26:27.736 I like to think of lots of different scenarios, but I think the next, few years we will see more demand for long duration storage. 00:26:27.736 --> 00:26:30.436 We will see more needs for policy adaptions. 00:26:30.436 --> 00:26:39.466 We will see more creative interventions to really push us forward and we'll see more collaborations that really show that we're working on this whole concept of time. 00:26:39.706 --> 00:26:49.135 And I think this is exciting just to see how we use our collective, brain power and, and working collaborative systems to make a difference. 00:26:49.166 --> 00:26:55.556 So I'm excited to see in the next few years that we really do have a different energy infrastructure that is providing value. 00:26:55.916 --> 00:26:59.186 Alright, time now, Julia, for the lightning round. 00:26:59.246 --> 00:27:04.076 So couple of quick questions, one sentence answers if possible. 00:27:04.090 --> 00:27:04.299 Okay. 00:27:05.186 --> 00:27:10.391 first up, what matters more, lowest cost or lowest lowest risk? 00:27:11.412 --> 00:27:13.096 You can have both if you have the right formula. 00:27:17.254 --> 00:27:22.504 Because it's not just, it's just not the cost of power, it's the the power of time I'd say as well. 00:27:23.650 --> 00:27:24.309 Okay, good. 00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:26.305 And what's the biggest myth about storage? 00:27:27.668 --> 00:27:30.097 That long duration storage is not available, and it is 00:27:31.974 --> 00:27:32.423 Okay. 00:27:33.128 --> 00:27:33.968 come buy it today. 00:27:34.388 --> 00:27:34.628 Yeah. 00:27:34.884 --> 00:27:36.683 What should governments stop doing? 00:27:37.583 --> 00:27:47.182 Governments should stop looking at different silos of needs and start looking at the collective infrastructure and how long duration storage can provide a solution. 00:27:48.284 --> 00:27:52.903 And what should utilities learn faster? 00:27:53.982 --> 00:28:01.243 utilities are in a really hard place because they're trying to maintain grid reliability at the same time having a whole new world pushed upon them. 00:28:01.722 --> 00:28:12.077 And I think if there could be two steps forward from both the utility side and two steps forward from all of those asking for changes finding a way to build a bridge quicker with a little bit more trust to both sides. 00:28:12.323 --> 00:28:18.773 It's hard when you have cultural clashes, but I think what's exciting is that there are doors that are being opened for discussion. 00:28:19.133 --> 00:28:26.952 So my ask would be can we walk through those doors a a little bit quicker with some trust on both sides so that we can build the infrastructure we need in less than 10 years. 00:28:27.773 --> 00:28:28.673 Light lightning round. 00:28:29.389 --> 00:28:29.749 I know. 00:28:29.749

--> 00:28:32.808 Sorry, I'm long duration in stores. 00:28:32.808 --> 00:28:33.919 It's can go for days. 00:28:33.919 --> 00:28:34.308 Come on. 00:28:37.159 --> 00:28:38.088 Seasons, weeks. 00:28:38.509 --> 00:28:38.989 That's funny. 00:28:39.957 --> 00:28:40.497 next one, 00:28:40.584 --> 00:28:40.874 Okay. 00:28:41.187 --> 00:28:43.287 Power or heat, which is more overlooked? 00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:49.030 Depends on the country. 00:28:49.121 --> 00:28:51.760 I'd say heat and then power. 00:28:53.596 --> 00:28:59.027 Right and complete this duration is the difference between what. 00:28:59.852 --> 00:29:01.201 I think time and money. 00:29:02.162 --> 00:29:03.497 Duration is the difference between time and money. 00:29:04.984 --> 00:29:05.673 Alright, cool. 00:29:05.974 --> 00:29:07.114 That's the end of the lightning round. 00:29:07.234 --> 00:29:08.824 Now I have a left field question for you. 00:29:10.460 --> 00:29:10.820 Love it. 00:29:10.820 --> 00:29:11.360 Bring it on. 00:29:12.218 --> 00:29:12.758 Okay. 00:29:14.048 --> 00:29:25.603 If you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional a champion for long duration energy storage, who would it be and why? 00:29:26.298 --> 00:29:35.028 It would be the Avengers because I love Marvel movies, and I just think that when you bring the whole group together, that is the characteristic of long duration storage. 00:29:35.058 --> 00:29:44.449 You've got, you've got Tony Stark and you've got like all these gadgets and all these things, but you've got Thor and you've got like, then the, you've got Captain America and you have the humility and just kind of the power. 00:29:44.449 --> 00:30:01.441 I just think like this wonderful group and then if you include like the broader group of Ant Man and you've got like the, captain Marvel, it's just this amazing, inspiring group of leaders with different values that they bring to this collective group that I think just really epitomises the value of long duration storage. 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:02.191 Excellent. 00:30:02.371 --> 00:30:02.941 Fantastic. 00:30:04.001 --> 00:30:06.132 Julia, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. 00:30:06.132 --> 00:30:14.567 Is there any question that I didn't ask that you wish I had or aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to be aware of? 00:30:15.761 --> 00:30:21.942 I think there's just one thing I wanna come back to that I said at the very beginning is just I think the importance of time. 00:30:22.001 --> 00:30:32.625 I mean, time is a precious commodity for all of us, and I think that's also why as we're living through this whole energy transition in general, just we're all, our world is evolving to we really need to know how to price time. 00:30:32.625 --> 00:30:38.955 And I think in the markets, and I think this is something that is a really interesting component to work with partners on. 00:30:39.065 --> 00:30:43.115 That would be exciting to see how we price time with utilities and policy makers. 00:30:43.115 --> 00:30:50.815 And, it's interesting the data centre conversation is starting to look into this and how can we really demystify the role of long duration storage. 00:30:51.265 --> 00:30:54.924 I get asked a lot, oh, long duration storage, when is it gonna be ready? 00:30:54.924 --> 00:30:56.424 And I'm like, no, it, it is ready. 00:30:56.605 --> 00:30:58.105 We need the markets to be ready. 00:30:58.465 --> 00:31:00.625 And I point to the UK cap and floor. 00:31:00.815 --> 00:31:07.144 I point to deals like what New Energy did with Meta or, Rio Tinto with Rondo or Form with Excel, Google. 00:31:07.745 --> 00:31:10.055 I also like to point out that it's not a future ecosystem. 00:31:10.144 --> 00:31:13.174 It's a present one waiting on the, on the market rules to catch up. 00:31:13.174 --> 00:31:19.924 So we, at the Long Duration Energy Storage Council, we work to fill that gap and we're turning in long duration storage solutions. 00:31:20.015 --> 00:31:24.245 Not just from the, great components and the value they add, but to real infrastructure. 00:31:24.305 --> 00:31:29.134 Whether it's on islands and communities, community centres, off grid or on grid. 00:31:29.164 --> 00:31:35.795 I think this is what's really exciting and look forward to working with everybody on, on how to make this become a benefit and reality in, your community. 00:31:37.191 --> 00:31:37.701 Fantastic. 00:31:37.821 --> 00:31:38.121 Great. 00:31:38.541 --> 00:31:39.280 That's been really interesting. 00:31:39.941 --> 00:31:46.476 Julia if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? 00:31:47.063 --> 00:31:56.513 I'd go to our amazing website where you can get lots of great information and it's www.ldescouncil.com and that's LDES. 00:31:56.663 --> 00:31:59.063 So, and we have a lot of great reports that are there. 00:31:59.749 --> 00:32:00.879 Julia, that's been fascinating. 00:32:00.879 --> 00:32:02.499 Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. 00:32:02.989 --> 00:32:03.949 Tom, thank you so much. 00:32:03.949 --> 00:32:08.379 Love that we're both wearing our hats to enjoy the, the summer or winter, wherever you are in the world. 00:32:08.629 --> 00:32:16.578 But again, thank you so much for the opportunity and for always the wonderful challenging questions to make us think outside the box to, help bring more new ideas forward. 00:32:16.578 --> 00:32:18.874 So thanks again for the opportunity and look forward to working with you.

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