This episode features Brewster Kahle, Digital Librarian and founder of the Internet Archive, and Wikimedia Foundation Creative Director Heather Walls in conversation about the Internet and how its systems exhibit impermanence as well as permanence over time.
United States


00:00:02this is not cast at the California institute of integral studies where we bring you conversations elections around public programs featuring world renowned scholar leaders authors and to make sure you never missed an episode of the CIA in public programs broadcast find instances guy when I tunes see I
00:00:24am EDT slash so the wikimedia foundation will wikimedia actually and perhaps Brewster have similar visions which ours is that every person share in the sum of all human knowledge and yours according to what I read is providing universal at universal access to all knowledge was that true at
00:00:59the start of your career yeah arm so I I'm a geek arm and there is this question of a friend of mine put to me in college said okay your your geek and a bike this recalled nurture hackers or something like that at the time said yes and
00:01:18he said you're utopian Esther honesty up to try to paint a port positive portrait of how the world will be better place because your technology this turned out to be a really hard question to answer and I I recommend to try to ask sort of something like that
00:01:36it's just like okay went what's a positive is really easy to complain until we were complaining about Nicaragua El Salvador and the island nuclear weapons and and and things like that on but it was harder to go and say well how could we actually make things you know
00:01:51better and I could only come up with two answers one that I thought woods kinda too obvious so it to somebody else would do it tight enough to bother the other struck me as as something really worth doing which is trying to protect people's privacy on since nineteen
00:02:07eighty arm and try to make it so that people wouldn't just throw away their privacy %HESITATION in this sort of on coming in the digital age so I thought that was worth worth trying to do so I went off to try to do that I want to make
00:02:23chips that would encrypt what people said on the phone on silent learned chips to try to do this %HESITATION and %HESITATION I found that I couldn't make it cheap enough to help the common man because I figured people wouldn't actually won't pay for it they if they wouldn't
00:02:40pay for privacy in fact they probably do what they could to not have it um C. had to make it there anyway so I figured it had to be sort of built into every arm answering machine and every sort of our phone because nineteen eighty as early as
00:02:57I could find I couldn't do it so I went to plan B. which was the building universal library could rebuild the library of Alexandria version two just so it's going to be too obvious that other people would do it and spot so I said alright one light just
00:03:10try to do that ends now alone thirty seven years later we still haven't gotten there armed but at least we'll have packaged up and thrown away their privacy on a massive scale right you're right yeah on and the only way to try to make it so we actually
00:03:27do use privacy is to sort of build it into everything we do so by the fall everything is and and encrypted on and we can do that actually now on the big companies and the government will like it very much but we can we can we can get
00:03:43that done but the library of Alexandria version two can we make all the published works of human kind the only available to anybody that wants to have access to it can we do that this is absolutely when we did not the math even back then of sort of
00:03:59how much storage would cost and when would we get to having all of the books in the library of Congress we could put a date than one would we be able to have all the music ever recorded we had a date and one we have be able to
00:04:12have all the films ever done we had a date and so is it okay thank that looks like fun that seems like a really good project to work on and on but we were pretty far away from her even having computers that work well enough to to handle
00:04:27this arm just to give you can know the sort of way back when life sucked on a super computer that I helped design cost five million dollars in it thirty two megabytes of ram yeah and I and then we built a special arm %HESITATION disk drive it was
00:04:46the size and of of of that whole thing and it was %HESITATION in was actually occurred like that was really cool cool the data falls and it it health five gigabytes of data and who it was it it used raid before raid was was was coined yet on
00:05:02to be able to make all these hard drives to be able to be five gigabytes as five million dollars on but it allowed us to see the future and allowed us to play on with things that were really really fast so you could go and search all the
00:05:17texts that you could find from all the me in magazines and newspapers and put it in and be able to find patterns within it on and that was really terrific on the night I thought the world would be different place if you go in build such a computer
00:05:32with all the stuff in it but it didn't happen I'm so that all right well we got a good out make it so that's relevant easy to converse with can we make it so people would ask their computers questions this is in mid eighties this wasn't done quite
00:05:47yet we would started to have the internet so said okay let's go and use that with this open protocols thing we got publishing going became the worldwide web on once that was going once we got publishing going and the search and all of that then I could start
00:06:04building the libraries that was ninety six so last twenty years have been building a library %HESITATION to try to build sort of this this idea archive in the web books music video on software so that's been sort of the vision of the internet that I signed on to
00:06:23to try to help make it happen on what's amazing to me is we're just not there yet that if you look for things online he might find answers in wikipedia you might find you know something then but the but the bulk of the materials that we know as
00:06:40people aren't there so I feel in some sense we've done a cruel trick we went and convince people to turn to their computers to answer questions and they did and they stopped going to the libraries but they we didn't put all the information online and if it is
00:07:01their it's behind some pay wall or it's not only as a locked up in some database or somebody didn't you know doesn't wanted accessible or whatever and I think it is absolutely tragic so if it's not online it's as if it doesn't exist and if we don't put
00:07:17the best we have to offer within reach of all of us and our children we're gonna get the generation we deserve it they're gonna learn from whatever it is they can get a hold of when they get a hold of is really thin or to manipulate apple and
00:07:33we saw in this last election of home easy it is to manipulate what's on screens you can just play with it he and and there's the backup materials does not even there if you're Wikipedian you're really encouraged to go and have clickable references what if it's in a
00:07:50book that's not online when you probably wouldn't even find it because you can't read it online and if you just if it's not searchable and Google it's it's kind of gone so I think we we have a long way to go to long winded question answer to a
00:08:06very simple question we have a long way to go to a actually building this the suck level brain that we've been hoping for we're we're not there yet on it we we we've got the computers we've got the network we've got people arm really participating arm but there's
00:08:28a bunch of pieces missing arm who it's kind of the the live encyclopedia that thinks for itself on we're all sort of part of it out that I I heard of a prop professors say you know if you ask one of his students if your house was burning
00:08:45down and you could run in and get in on one thing what would it be and it's always their phone and that is so it's not that the your their journals it's not the photographs under the bed which was sort of my era Sir phone we're connected all
00:08:59the time meet if we didn't have this I think we I isn't starting to make it so we feel okayed not remembering because we can just find it is it yet are we getting so that we're assuming we're service symbiotic with wikipedia and Google and the internet and
00:09:19what isn't making us into it to make it more connected what is it making us into them and what happens if we don't really try to guide this to be the thing that we think it should be my temping to Graham what's wikipedia's answer to this so wikipedia
00:09:36right is trying to be all answers to all people right is built on a couple of interesting conceits and my my opinion wikipedia has this idea that there's a consensus of truth which is amazing or is growing up there's encyclopedia Britannica and if you're really really important you
00:09:55got to write one of those articles on I was really really privileged I got to write the article on the internet for the encyclopedia Britannica I was like I've beat it right that's the that's completely cool arm but it wasn't consensus it was authority and then we keep
00:10:14he had this he's an idea of what if we could actually hit a consensus on any particular subject and it's worked better than all of the sort of standoffish elites ever thought arm is not in danger in what in danger from one for fracturing it well everything's always
00:10:37in danger right one of the cool things about wikipedia and the consensus is you we will never actually reach consensus it's forever so if we go back to the idea of permanence or impermanence there's this feeling on wikipedia that if the finally the knowledge is very important but
00:11:02the knowledge is alive and it requires that interaction with people or with context or with community to say to stay alive and to be relevant to people it also changes the people who work on it say more well we talked about this a little bit before and %HESITATION
00:11:26there was a study that came out in %HESITATION Harvard Business Review that talked about people who work on wikipedia articles and talk on the talk page they might come in %HESITATION I'm very you know one side of a political issue or another very far away from each other
00:11:46but over time they come closer to the middle they become more neutral executors of bad I don't know for wikipedia that's good right you're trying to make this consensus happen so there's something neutral on the subject and that's what I miss the debate but boy do I really
00:12:11love wikipedia there's a reason why three hundred and forty million people every day Goodrem wikipedia according to some random statistic on but it's will debate is still there and that's also what's cool about wikipedia is that the debate is part of what's recorded and every article has a
00:12:32history I don't know if you know these things %HESITATION they're sort of like there there's kind of like a backside of wikipedia where conversations happen between the people who are making articles and the articles themselves one start and then someone changes it and that change is recorded and
00:12:50then so what people when people fight back and forth that little bit of fate is also recorded and it's really interesting so not only if if this is the internet and impermanence you guys are completely guilty of of violating the impermanence thing right so not only is the
00:13:08current web page available to everybody hopefully forever every pass version and what it is they said about it in all the debates or all sort of there in its actually them much more interesting part but harder to read so I I was trying to think this is this
00:13:30topic is about impermanence and there's so and I just impermanence of within the Buddhist tradition again of a cat things wash away great arm but then I jump immediately to not remembering right not recorded or recorded and deleted but that seems different then impermanence in the physical world
00:13:54as trying to think in the internet world is that just what it is isn't it sort of in the art of forgetting is what impermanence is %HESITATION I guess you could lose the whole internet itself and the structures that we've built that would be a more structural in
00:14:12terms of going in undermining it but I love that wikipedia has the debates the history I don't use that very much on TV do you go to see what if you're reading something or what cases do you go to find out the discussion behind it do you go
00:14:30for the history to go for the talk the history part is hard to read unless you have written yourself a script or something and you can parse it but the the talk page is is always there and it's very obviously very easy and people have hilarious conversations and
00:14:49some will come and say you clearly forgot this very important thing and they'll have a it's really it's not funny now as I'm explaining it but if you check some out there actually alerts yes I do so the internet archive on we tried to record sort of what
00:15:08else is going on out there and so on we started by recording the worldwide web on because once we got the web kind of going on than we wanted to go in build in a memory into it on I think Ted Nelson came up with the concept of
00:15:25hypertext his right arm and that the web or hypertext should always referred to the past versions of where it came from a Ted Nelson released says gosh you shouldn't have cut and paste where you take things out of context and move it into a new context chosen remember
00:15:47where it came from you're always building things based on where else it has been and the web was very very simple Tim Berners Lee built a very very simple system on which made it are able to spread but it didn't have things like backlinks like where did this
00:16:02come from arm or who else is pointing to it arm so it's sort of like every day is a new day and the web it's it's it's a very weird world on so we thought okay what's these patch that %HESITATION by building the internet archive by taking a
00:16:18snapshot of every web page from every website every two months snapshot in a snapshot snapshot snapshot and it's starting to get big a home and we now have about a thousand librarians that are helping basically archive on specific subject based collections on for their own or institutions arm
00:16:43to have but it also contributes to the Wayback machine are in general and we collect about a billion web girls every week %HESITATION were about a half billion pages every week the total collection size is about it's almost a three hundred billion pages is just enormous arm and
00:17:04it's it's just us it's just all of us going in sharing and a radical level and what I am amazed by is how private people are %HESITATION at date they share such private things arm of what it is they're doing what they're because they find they think that
00:17:21it's better for them to share than to not share the to arm and I think we should do everything we can to not have people feel betrayed the the advice my parents got when they went off to college on was going to keep your head down big be
00:17:37careful about what clubs you join right this the McCarthy era and my my my sister on earth her journal had little lock on it %HESITATION to basically keep it from me right so I couldn't read her journal but I think my sister at this point the equivalent of
00:17:59my sister now would be out on Facebook and just kind of putting it out there for anybody %HESITATION so we've got this real radical sharing experiment going on where people are living and very exposed arm and wonderful experience I think this this will this worldwide web in this
00:18:19internet is and I don't think we quite understand how treasure it really is arm and and it and how rare on this this kind of experiment and radical sharing on is and then there's this question of what do you make permanent so out of these journals you know
00:18:41people going and doing this stuff how much should be permanent right out of it so the internet archive just archives the stuff should we well Sir some things you know are absolutely you wanna have permanent news on corporate %HESITATION pronouncements is of this is in that you know
00:19:01those sorts of things what things that don't get people in trouble but there's not everything on it should be permanent armed so we try to make it easy for people to take things out of the way back machine by emailing us and saying Hey can I be on
00:19:16the way back machine and we get a lot of those arm and so that the takes takes things down a as trying to be a balance in the whole thing but I hope it really doesn't come back to haunt us because we've started to see some of the
00:19:31negative parts of big data of of what happens when there is information out there could be used against you even an aggregate we're we're in an unknown little pieces of it seemed particularly bad but in aggregate it actually makes maybe make us feel like we're being watched all
00:19:47the time is you are as we are so impermanence are forgetting when should we who should be allowed to do this mean do you give the internet archive of past because were non profit in kinda nice arm if it were the NSA for the library of Congress if
00:20:07it were your school if it were of the police arm where where do we draw the line on this and one of the things I did very early on and building the internet archive was to just to have all of this really publicly it's going to say what
00:20:24it is we're doing arm should have open doors %HESITATION we have an open lunch every Friday is close we have to a staff meeting and it's public I'm it's not public like in the sense that it's live cast but it's public in the sense that we invite people
00:20:40in to try to figure out what are we building here and how do we build the best we can do San Francisco's kind interesting I think in that way maybe one of the reasons why we keep media moved to San Francisco is it's a place of balance when
00:20:55I first moved here is actually a Peter Wallace who spends a lot of time at CIS arm he he said that this and the the doers that work in the Silicon Valley and the beers that are up here in San Francisco okay is twenty five years ago things
00:21:13have shifted a little bit but there's this balance of trying to figure out where we're should disco and what's the countervailing force to just pure capitalism arm and interestingly so much is happening in this area the googles apple Facebook Twitter wikipedia internet archive Electronic Frontier Foundation it's really
00:21:39to sort of casting what the digital world may look like for a long time if we do it right we do it wrong it's really our fall on we we did we did something wrong so you you have more power than the thing arm you know people that
00:21:54work in all these places we may work in these places so how should we build this what what should be forgotten of what should be emphasized how do we merge people networks computers the knowledge that has been written before what we get what's the best we can do
00:22:14by mixing these ingredients are to make our lives better other people's lives better on I'm hoping that some of the things that come out of San Francisco in the next ten or twenty years %HESITATION because of it's just sort of if we leave the web as kind of
00:22:30a alone the biggest surveillance network ever built or if it sort of feels creepy arm that we've we've gone too far and and we sort of retreat back into closed gardens controlled by corporate overlords I think we will have really missed missed an opportunity tennis your question sorry
00:22:52the internet archive is about thirty petabytes now it's growing at about twelve to fifteen terabytes a day arm and what makes up that data set so how big is that it's it's like one of those are lego worlds of those big numbers lots zero so what what do
00:23:12we do what we really dealing with here on the library of Congress is the largest print library by far is about twenty six to twenty eight million books a book is about a megabyte twenty eight million megabytes echoes mega giga terra twenty eight terabytes is would store all
00:23:38of the words in the library of Congress without compression that's for hard drives that you can buy at Best Buy for less than a month's rent so the idea of having the library of Congress on your desk which was sort of what was talked about in the seventies
00:23:54and eighties is completely doable but it's not done so where do we we we have a scanning center in the library of Congress turning pages but very very few we haven't digitize that puppy up it's completely we could have done it and they actually to their credit kind
00:24:13of push back on Google's project because they wanted to put restrictions on the public domain they said you don't put restrictions on the public domain and Google said we will they said we don't want to work with you will wait for the next one and so on it's
00:24:31too bad that they enough that went down that way %HESITATION so but now we get to do I think a better job of that but okay so too let's say a bit is a one or zero Claude Shannon said that's the Adam of bits right it's the it's
00:24:47the the indivisible unit of debts is a one or zero one zero how many bits are in a bite it turns eight eight bits to a byte and a bite it's it's really confusing and sometimes people talk about megabytes and megabytes and a way so megabyte is a
00:25:03bit so bite which is characters a thousand mega but a thousand bytes is called a kilobyte thousand kilobytes megabyte doesn't megabytes gigabytes doesn't gigabytes %HESITATION bites thousand terabytes by it's a word about thirty petabytes now ought to give sort of an idea a channel year of television is
00:25:29ten terabytes it's kind of deal with the of the %HESITATION I don't know wikipedia's in the gigabytes of these is a whole lot of material and even a small organization like the internet archive can scale to that scale making it navigable is not easy making it last a
00:25:54long time again IDC so some of the problems of making this stuff last is changing the formats from one format to another arm so when we started collecting movies we did it in impact to format and we've had to go back through all of our old movies or
00:26:12even the uploads and re trance dot transcode them six times arm and it takes a long time to sort of have the computer's gonna move it forward but that's the way to keep it still in use arm and then there's the so what do you do about software
00:26:30because software you can't just move it forward from enough and I old IBM PC to your new mac how do you know what is I mean it's basically done by emulation so you can emulate arm these these old environments on your new computer and Jason Scott who works
00:26:48at the archive had this wacky idea a set up I got it there these communities out there that have been collecting like old apple two software getting it off of floppies and then putting it in files more normal files and their other group of people that have been
00:27:04trying to make an emulator bill cook coded in C. or something like that you could download and run you know you're old apple two of us in on your new Macintosh but it's really hard to do so is sort of the land of the specialists are the you
00:27:19know guys live in their basements for on his time on so it was really hard to keep he thought we we can bring this out by going and having the emulators cross compiled into Java script so in a browser you can go to a web page download the
00:27:37emulator in Java script a boot in your browser and loads the virtual floppy over the net and runs and these communities in script and at the time I think is Mozilla project this cross compiling there's the community that's been doing these emulators and the communities that have been
00:27:58building these cult these collections of old software all work together for a long time and it now works so you can go to archive dot org and relive your eight bit past you can play or Oregon Trail you can play all these all video games all and you
00:28:12can bring these things are back to life %HESITATION Jason Scott likes to talk about the emulator ready so it's at the emulator is when everything is emulated within itself or that these machines are sort of waking up at an unknown and lay look at the clock and since
00:28:30its nineteen eighty four no it's two thousand seventeen and if they just sort of there they were put to sleep and they're sort of woken back up now and that level of cake kind of surreal playing a computer in a computer arm is is really sort of strange
00:28:50you can play actually an old IBM PC and launch Netscape version one and you can actually go and look at current web pages in this world so as as Jason said some people somebody looking at the White House dot gov web logs still saw that a Netscape one
00:29:14point zero the browser came and visited %HESITATION so we're starting to play with the axis of time you can in the Wayback machine was named that by a guy named Z. Smith he was the first engineering manager at at %HESITATION the internet archive he said pressure you when
00:29:30collecting all this stuff what you need is the Wayback machine you know like when Sherman and Peabody enough on the rocky and Bullwinkle show where you turn time to a different time and you walk into it and you can see the web as it was and was like
00:29:45you're absolutely right we have no idea how to build that and it was years that several years later on in two thousand one when we launched the way back machine and it was really about being able to see it as it was second like Westworld or something or
00:30:00a sort of can we go and make it so that you can understand the complete the set of links as it was it was just sort of the simplest hello world app for this on but it's been amazingly popular it's used by about six hundred thousand people every
00:30:16day the the whole internet archive website is about the three hundredth most popular website which were pretty proud of except when I'm sitting next to person from wikipedia arm because their their websites the number five website people go to that all the time it is part of their
00:30:32brain but anyway the internet archive we still think three hundred okay given that there's hundreds of millions of websites armed and so people want old stuff they like old stuff armed they they aren't just dopes sitting out there they want to learn they want to play with things
00:30:47they what they wanted time axis on so I think that there's there's reason for hope out there how do we keep up with technological change personally is %HESITATION have young friends %HESITATION because not only is the technology changing just the way they even look at it is completely
00:31:06different %HESITATION so that's the only way to %HESITATION to really sort of idea org organizationally the internet archive has been building this the sunset of materials and we basically copy it bomb every three to five years under then on to the next generation machines and destroy lives in
00:31:27operating systems and so that's what we've been doing on carrying it forward and then there's the question of gum of having it in multiple places %HESITATION because the light if we're trying to build a library of Alexandria version two it's what is the labor of Alexander version one
00:31:43best known for burning down right its best known for not being here anymore it was it was the center of learning for about five hundred years they they wanted one copy of all the books of all the peoples of the world and according to some scholars they got
00:32:00basically they're on at least they had the Greeks the Hittites the arm the Jews the on the option the Greek that Romans eight and they translate all in the Greek and they can learn from it and they came up with amazing things they knew the earth was round
00:32:19they knew that how big the earth was within a few percent mean stunning stuff on the route the arm Euclid wrote the book of geometry which is I've heard is the second most reprinted book ever arm and it's from about the same time period as the other one
00:32:40and I find the I. Euclid's really readable on so anyway it's %HESITATION there's great things that came about after doing this but it's gone and if they made another copy and put it in India or China we have the other works of Aristotle the other plays of Euripides
00:32:57but we don't we don't we have a bunch of things that were copied there the other night I talked to the director of the of the new library of Alexandria they they basically built a new one and launched in two thousand two which is fabulous and said there
00:33:11eight pieces of papyrus their extent today that they believe had been in the great library and it's basically little scholars notes that happened when copied and then moved off of side it's just that gone and what happened to her wasn't as burned it wasn't sort of an accidental
00:33:31thing I highly recommend the book %HESITATION called a movie called agora so just try to write that down or or implied just it's on Netflix it's awesome is made in Spain and it's better late Hellenistic period in Alexandria and it was basically who's a shift of time that
00:33:52the time of the elites of this whole idea of the Greeks arm basically wasn't very good to the peasants around them that happened to be this new sect called Christian on and it was kind of a rebel movement of the poor on that sort of brought down this
00:34:13not only Alexandria but the concept of these universities and we went into a very different time for a thousand years on so let's have more than one copy arm let's go take care of it and also let's not going isolate ourselves so much that people feel they have
00:34:32to rebel in such a way that they burned down on what it is that has been built on I think there's more than lessons of just you know have good fire extinguishers in your library if you have movies or things that you're you're trying to get down a
00:34:47few generations what do you do when you can't just print it out right or maybe you can but it's like what am I up so how do you go and make these things last and it's really hard it's arm if you tried to actually get two year old
00:35:04backup drives from ten years ago does even mount me if you didn't like keep them for copying forward into your new hard drive and if you ever did dough with a relative that has died and what do you do with their computer arm and what do you do
00:35:20what we do now that our our memories according to Kodak or pictures armed flicker flicker just got bought arm by Verizon right it's as though it's a Yahoo property on what happens when nothing goes down %HESITATION that's got a lot of so I can generate justice just riffing
00:35:38on your sort of like what am I don't I don't have a good idea I think make lots of copies I'm try to have them be used arm the kind of public with them arm is one possibility maybe store things on the internet archive as well as other
00:35:57things %HESITATION but heck if I know I've I've been given failing my whole family thing %HESITATION of just how do you keep this log is another counter force which is the lawyers so and a lot of corporations including the internet archive we have document retention policies which really
00:36:17mean document destruction policies because it's so expensive to have lawsuits where they come and they do these vague queries to just try to drive up the lawyer cost of having everybody go through expensive people go through all your email so even though a lot of this could be
00:36:35kept more effectively often they're not kept on purpose because it's too expensive to keep not from a storage perspective but because of the our lawn fireman %HESITATION that we've made something really kind of strange out there so I don't know I think it's going to be a very
00:36:51lumpy weird world there's some one person said you know if it's digital it's never gonna last or if it's digital it's the only thing that's gonna last and you can say exactly the same thing about paper paper and it'll it'll never last it'll just go away up but
00:37:06it's not papers the only thing that'll last in all four of those things are true or armor and so that's I I I don't know we're in a very weird time and I think we're also that we've got people in a very anxious mode you look at almost
00:37:21any fictional movie or whatever and it's got some a I that's conquering us and you know killing us and some and so in some way on people are anxious about what this whole digital wave means and what our places arm as this whole thing goes for so there's
00:37:40Fahrenheit four fifty one has a sort of fanciful and of where we get to go wander around in the woods and be our favorite book and try to remember it and bring it forward on I think is wrong arm but it's a it's a it's a great for
00:37:53some fanciful arm idea arm I think we're have you gotten to the point where if something isn't photographed it didn't exist or are you don't trust a news report that's just written if it didn't have a video of it happening you don't really know whether it existed or
00:38:13not if they're just lying it are we still need to try distrust people and what they say and their integrity arm in such a way that we were really undermining our own sort of authority in in what's going on arm at so much is photographed and so much
00:38:32is around that I I think we're we're %HESITATION we're externalizing our memories arm and if it's not find a bowl then it sort of has floated up floated away com and what we are kinda ed and and in the sense that we are sort of we still run
00:38:53this place yeah I think we're not doing a very good job of sort of making sure the people are are trusted and testable and brought up to be trusted testable arm and yeah I think we may be ceding too much at this point arm to these circuits to
00:39:12these Facebook pages that represent who we are %HESITATION at that's just not who we are %HESITATION so the thing I want there for a couple of of things in the last decade that have just tickled me so one is Wikipedian the others Ted talks of so tedtalks our
00:39:33our twenty minutes essays basically somebody good at saying something just giving a good shot and there are thousands and thousands of these videos now out there and they're watched million times at least some of them and it's very encouraging that people want to hear from people of what
00:39:55they have to say well but the extreme of that is wikipedia this is I can you build the Taj Mahal with an army of ants and you take individuals arm and go and trust them to do something great arm and it I guess there is no trust them
00:40:14I guess that may have boarded I they should take that back will people organically come together to come up with something great will they build great cities not because their top down design but because they're enabled an empowered and wikipedia I think is just one of the most
00:40:35positive arm things we've got going right now towards why were all going to do just great out of all of this if we I keep the tools are open and available and we realize our role is to debate put a forward and we have voices that should be
00:40:52heard that should be recorded that should be celebrated one thing I'd love to see more and wikipedia is actually surfacing the voices it is hidden I think up behind some pages when we get collections to the web we just collect the new this television things like that we
00:41:08wearing our collecting seventy eight RPM records because we want to digitize all of them these are wacky other Sir what did the early twentieth century sound like and others hillbilly music there's yodeling there's whistling there's people playing with spoons there's others old blues but there's also just there's
00:41:27marches I mean how does marches anymore and I'm so it's all these wonderful things and these have come to us based on collections the people have selected and when we put these things up were making sure we keep that this was somebody's collection because you might want to
00:41:45look at it for the crew and the other works by that author or that that performer or that euro or whatever on but also you might want to know who else had that what else they have next to it what what was their point of view in the
00:42:00middle Midwest arm in the nineteen thirties what were they listening to what was important to them was the record that was worn out I think that's going to be kind of the cool thing going forward and I think it's all about people and basically making our technologies recognize
00:42:20people leaving trails of who it is we are %HESITATION and celebrating that om not just dead people of that of laughter seventy eights to us armed but also %HESITATION sort of who we are Annales or not just sort of anonymized into a a big a I mush when
00:42:40you think about people well I think you're right talking about Howard Stern discussion and the the contextualizing of information and situations in the things that that people care about and that the things that the things that people say even the things that people show people are about expressing
00:43:06our who they may be wish to be and a kind of identity and %HESITATION historically knowledge used to only and the things that were shared with the things from the very rich are knowledgeable people right so how are we going to keep people engaged in this I think
00:43:31was sort of how I or what what about the people part as storage as transmission as curators are what's our role going to be in this world it seems like it's been overly dominated by computers and we keep PDS seems to just bring the best out of people
00:43:52and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people on that are participating and commenting and building a forward it's really special angry thank you very much for this evening you've been listening to the podcast to see public programs and the phones production was supervised by liable rare
00:44:26and desired effect if you liked what you heard you can subscribe in iTunes or visit our website see I am eating slash

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