Full Transcript for You Stop Being the Main Character | Mark Lambert - Ep4

you know, obviously I think the the leadership culture at Leicester, the the reviews of all of it have been very positive. So I think there's definitely something within the environment of elite sport around feeling that you can be honest about who you are and that will be welcomed rather than feeling that you can't be because People might go, all right, all right, mate, that's not the thing that we like doing. So therefore we don't see the value in it. So and I yeah, it wouldn't be for me to say about his his personal journey, but but yeah, I definitely think there's time and experience and all of those things, but also the people around you. Dave: Interesting. I think there's something in there in terms of like you said, when you are pursuing things outside of your your main profession, whether that's football, rugby, whatever the sport may be, if you have these things to lean back on as well, it doesn't make everything or it doesn't increase the importance on the one thing that you're concentrating on. So like say you do have a a performance where you're you're not completely happy with it, like it's not your best performance. you still have something else that you can go and enjoy and fall back on actually it's not end of the world sort of thing. Mark Lambert: Yeah, and the the more you step out of the bubble that is elite sport, the more you realise that actually it's not everything. You know, I I I pursued Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: I pursued a degree in the in in my career and actually I'd finished training and I'd go off and sit in a lecture or a or a seminar or sit with a tutor and they didn't care that I'd just been training for a Premiership Rugby Club. They weren't it you it didn't mean it Dave: Yeah. Mark Lambert: didn't mean anything to them. So you go Okay, well that doesn't all that all that matters is who I am in this space to them, rather than what I do over there. So it it's I think it it helps, yeah, it helps from a perspective point of view, it probably helps to keep you humble. and it it yeah, I'd I'd I'd I definitely recommend it. Dave: It's interesting you you were saying about like the the people around Jo. in terms of that Leicester, because one of the things that I've often thought of is whether it's peer pressure or or whether it is sorry, whether it's your peers or whether it's your coaches, is there a reluctance to engage with things outside of your sport due to the perception that you aren't then fully committed or you aren't fully focused on the weekend. Mark Lambert: Yeah, absolutely. That that that can absolutely be the case. and I think some of that comes down to the personality types that may be in a squad with you if they do things a certain way. And you know, if they're if they're at the top, whether that's kind of culturally or performance, then they will set that example and certainly young players or less senior players will be influenced by that. and definitely there's a a culture around You know, there's a

difference between going go and have a day off, but I want you thinking about this, this, this and this while you're gone, or go and have a day off, I'll see you in twenty four hours, think about something totally different. Now, a lot I think a lot of coaches do that themselves because they feel the pressure as well, right? You know, I need to do everything I can possibly do to give my the team the best chance it can possibly do, have to to go and win. But again, you know, someone who's Done an amazing job as at Northampton, Phil Dowson, who's obviously, you know, only retired from the game in the last number of years. sort of may maybe just about my generation, slightly older, not quite your generation. But again, he he he's he no, no. But he's talked about Dave: I'm not that old Mark Lambert: like there's a time when you're on and there's a time when you're off, and that's what they're about Dave: Mm-hmm. Mark Lambert: in Northampton. you know they know they know when the time is to have fun. They've got a young group who have come up together, they want them to enjoy and embrace that. But the the quid pro quo on that is, but when we're ready to go, we're ready to go. Like you when you Dave: Yeah. Mark Lambert: come to training, you're ready to train. When you come to match you're, you know, look at look at the last dance and you know the the i the iconic sports documentary of recent years, the way Phil Jackson talks about the way he managed that squad. and even manage different people within the squad differently. Dave: Okay. Mark Lambert: You know, look at the way he talks about Dennis Rodman. He was like, Dennis Rodman was, you know, this totally unique character. And I gave him the freedom to go and express that uniqueness. But he knew that that went both ways. He had to be in at training on time, he had to train hard, he had to be available for every match, and he was. That to me is like brilliant man management. And it and he was proved right. You know, some people might go, Well, why are you why are you treating him that way? And I think the misconception is he was just allowed to do what he wanted, but he wasn't. It was agreed. Yes, you get to do this thing because of who you are, but we get it back. And if you overstep that mark, no, the privileges are gone, kind of thing. So that's that's what culture is, I think performance culture. Dave: Hmm. You sit in an interesting intersection where you've obviously been a player and and have retired five, six years ago now, but also now work in that retirement playing space. With your view now, what does a successful transition look like for players? Mark Lambert: That's like that's the million-dollar question, I think. So I think that my my experience of transition was, and maybe the traditional experience of transition is well, what do I do now? So I think a lot of how you transition out of yeah, a lot of the traditional view is I've stopped doing this job, I need another job. So What do I go and do? And that's absolutely one hundred percent a central part of what transition is. You need to go and find the thing you're passionate about. And I think because if you've been a rugby player or footballer or an elite sportsman or woman in what whatever way, it becomes who you are. So what so what I do is who I am, right? That becomes your identity. But actually when you retire, what you do is part of who you are, but it's not all of who you are. And so I think, you know, we in I think there's a massive theme around identity in retirement, which we see time and time and time again. Who am I now? I don't do this thing. What is my purpose now? I don't do this thing. And then we talk about retirement and the work I'm kind of leading in the retired space. We talk about three pillars basically, which is c career, but also health and community. So th that to me is it covers the majority of the things you'll go through in in in transition. So to begin with that identity thing. Who am I now? I don't do this thing. But then also, yes, what do I do? But how am I looking after myself? How am I looking after my mental health, my physical health, my long-term health? How am I engaging in a community? And that might be my family, that might be social connection away from the game, that might be social connection within the game. Because I was lucky enough to play for a A long time. I retired at 35, had a 17-year career, saw a lot of my peers retire before me and felt that I was kind of prepared for it. And I maybe was in some of the practical ways. And then you retire and it kind of it it you f experience it in all these ways that you hadn't thought about. Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: so I I I think that what you do next you can absolutely prepare for. but the other elements are just as important, I think, as the practical. Dave: Hm. It's interesting that you mention it and I read an article where you mentioned around like the emotional side of of when you change sorry, of when you you retired. And I wanted to talk to you about looking prepared on paper versus actually being prepared in reality and the differences between the two. Mark Lambert: Yeah, defin yeah, definitely. I think so I think absolutely the to go to the the first part of our conversation, prepare for life away from the game. If it's a qualification, if it's a vocation, if it's work experience, whatever those things are, do those things. because that you do need the practical how do I make money, how do I pay the mortgage, how do I support the family, all of those things. But I think certainly what I'm trying to do is have more honest conversations with people post-retirement and hopefully in the future approaching retirement around that's not all this will be for you. This will be a total change in the structure of your life, in your social life, in probably your relationship with yourself, potentially your relationship with your body, what motivates you in life, you know, the dynamic of

how you engage with almost everyone in your life will change. and that can be really positive, but I think it needs to be sort of honestly confronted. So it I think a big part of a good transition is whatever social connection looks like for people. Now everyone's different. Some people are extroverts, some people are introverts, some people love being in the room of forty people, some people don't. We all have our different ways of doing it. But investing in that, valuing that as much as all the other stuff. I think is a real protective factor in transition, having those people around you who are there for you in whatever way that looks like. Because I think a l in my experience, a lot of people that struggle, yes, there might be that I didn't know what I was gonna do when I stopped playing, but quite often that can Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: be paired with social disconnection. I also don't really talk to anyone anymore. I don't feel like I've got many mates. my relationship's strained with my partner. things are different in family with the family, whatever those things may be. Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: and actually, you know, I think the the social side of it has always been seen as kind of a nice add-on in retirement, but I see it as as important as the other elements. Dave: Yeah, it was really interesting you mentioned around community. So when we work with clients in the sports sector, we we have four pillars that we we talk to them about and obviously one is is is finance, which I I want to touch on in a minute, but one is is also connection. And something that I always encourage our clients to do is when you are in your sport and you know, your professional rugby, cricket, footballer, wherever it wherever the sport may be, make a big effort to interact and stay connected with your friends that aren't within that that bubble and then you reverse it. So as soon as you are outside of that bubble, make a big effort to still be connected with with your mates and your your past teammates, et cetera, within that sport because ultimately you want some you don't want there to like a cliff edge where like you've got take like let's take Rugby for example. Like when I walked into Quinns when when we first met properly, I walked in and within a day I had forty, fifty mates. Like moved to a new area and you know, forty, fifty mates on literally right there every day. but that can if that's your entire life, that can drop off quite quickly. So it it you you need to have that balance between friends outside or connections outside and then also when you leave that that area of your life, still stay connected with your good mates that you that you have inside the sport. sorry. Mark Lambert: yeah, a hundred percent. No, tot totally agree. Totally agree. Dave: Yeah. You you mentioned in there around what a lot of people think of as a good transition is things like getting a job, earning enough money, paying the mortgage, all of that sort of stuff. All revolves

around money. Do you think financial success or financial stability is enough to put you on a really good trajectory for a like a smoother, maybe less stressful transition? Mark Lambert: it's im it's really important, right? It's absolutely really important. I think making sure you're in a f you know, if if you can remove the worry of financial concern, I don't know how I'm paying the next month's bills, those sorts of things, then I think that's a huge, a huge weight off. However, the the counterpoint to that I'd say is that it's gotta be the pursuit of that has got to be in something that you want to do and that you in That you enjoy. And actually, I I'm reading a book at the moment called The Good Life, which is around the Harvard study of 85 years of human life. Basically, it's the longest continuous study of human life. I assume you've pro I reckon you've probably read it. But yeah. Dave: Seen it, yeah. Mark Lambert: And w the number one thing is is around a good life is basically social connection, but like the the rich the richness, depth and variety of human relations relationships. But I'm actually reading a section at the moment about finance. And basically, yes, money does make you happier to a certain point. Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: At the point where your needs are met, you're not you're not thinking daily around money, money, money like the, you know, so I would never ever underestimate that. But actually all of the research over a long period of time shows you that everything beyond a certain threshold is kind of nice to have, but doesn't necessarily correlate with you being any happier. Now, if you find something you love doing and you make loads of money doing it, brilliant. But also if the pursuit of money is the only thing you're pursuing and it's not finding something that gives you purpose or you enjoy or those things, then actually you'll reach a point where that pursuit will probably become counterproductive, I think. Dave: I I I completely agree with you. money and work is more often than not the the the number one and number two in the biggest stresses across like UK and and and US studies in in recent years. So if you know that that is gonna be one of the biggest stresses in in your life, if you can take that away, then then yeah, you you set yourself up for a well, a a much smoother ride anyway. Lamby you said it a couple of times in terms of maybe in the context of players not knowing what they want to do or haven't found their their passion yet post whatever the sport may be. How do individuals start to explore that? and what does that look like from a weekly basis, do you think? Mark Lambert: Current players. Yeah. So I think firstly there's support and advice there. It's not something that you have to do on your own. Some some clubs will have staff that are there to support players. Obviously as an organization at the RPA, we have pla people that are there working in at clubs. But even beyond that, like the general principle of if you don't know where to start, there's probably people who happily sit down and have a conversation with you. So I think the value of mentorship, whatever that looks like, is is yeah, the it it's incredibly worthwhile to and it can feel you can feel vulnerable having that conversation. I don't really know what to do, or how Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: did you get into what you do? But I think so the openness to share that I think is really important. And taking the time To find out what you don't want to do as much as what you do wanna do. And I think I would almost say if there's an approach to take during your career, unless you're sure, right, this is the thing I definitely want to do, I would see the majority of the op the possibility in a career of like ruling out all the things that you know you don't want to do in retirement and narrowing down that list. because you know, the opportunities potentially are endless, right? And if you're if if all you've ever done is pursue an elite sport, then you may not know or have any idea what you might be able to do outside of it. So I think mentorship, I think take opportunities, whether that's work experience, whether that's coffees, whether that's spending a day with someone, whatever it may be. And then the other thing really just in general in all of this, whether it's the social side or the work side or the career pro, I just just think be inquisitive. Be inquisitive. Like Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: I think there's so much around the culture of elite sport where you probably don't have to be that inquisitive because you get everything done for you, right? You're told where to be when, what to wear. You don't have to think about what you're going to eat, you don't have to think about when the coach is arriving, when you need to be somewhere, you just do what you're told. And actually when you get outside of that bubble, unless you're very, very lucky, that doesn't really continue. Right. So Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: actually try and try and retain that sense of inquisitiveness. Like, how does this work? Well, you know, even if it's a conversation with a physio or the commercial director at a club or whatever it may be, just build that understanding of the way things work and I just think it will help you massively. Dave: Yeah, it's it's something that I've heard of time and time again is that that there's no risks or there's no loss to the player to have conversations with people and then just explore loads of different things whilst they're playing because ultimately like they're getting paid to to play at the weekend or or compete at the weekend. But the worst outcome would be actually now I know a little bit about construction and then I know a little bit about coaching and I I know a little bit about teaching and tech or whatever, IT, recruitment, whatever they want to, you know, explore, even if it's businesses, like going, how do you set up business? and yeah, like like you said,

start to ticking ticking off what you don't like about about certain roles or certain professions and then you you will eventually narrow down to then something that you do like. So I think that's it's really great advice that you you mentioned there. Something that I wanted to pick up on with you just then because it it's a point that I love to emphasise and and you've already brought it up which is fantastic is opportunity. Because I think transition often is talked around with maybe negative conversations around life is going to be more challenging than than when you're you're playing, but that doesn't have to be the case. But there's no no one is there is no rule to say that your your next chapter has to be not as good as the first. So just f like from your perspective, what's been great about life post professional rugby? Mark Lambert: I think I I actually had this conversation with a few people over the last few months. And I think in in many ways I'm probably the happiest I've ever been. because and centrally to me f like for me is is my family within that. So you don't have to compromise in the same way. My my kids are also growing up. I've got three kids who are nine, seven and six. I love Dave: Busy Mark Lambert: yeah, yeah, busy. Love spending time with them. that gives me more fulfillment than probably I got at any point in a in a rugby career. And having said that, the process hasn't necessarily been easy. You know, I was someone on paper who everyone said, you'll be fine, mate. Like you'll be absolutely fine. Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: You know. long career, I'd got qualifications. but I find the first couple of years of retirement really challenging from a kind of emotional point of view, identity point of view, all of those sorts of things. So it it definitely wasn't easy. But actually I've come to a good relationship with myself around things like health. What are the things that I want to go and do? Like I go and play for the village cricket team and run around and play football on a Thursday night and Absolutely love both of those things. That's like my weekly therapy. So I know I need that. I know I need to go and do those things for my head, but also the social side of it, you get to go and make new friends, retain that kind of inquisitiveness. and just the yeah, I think the freedom and the perspective of retirement that gives you and just getting that bit older and continuing to feel more comfortable in your own skin. And I'm very lucky as well in what I do that I still get to not only remain in the game, but actually with the work particularly I've been doing in the last twelve months, a real focus for me is trying to make things better for other people that are retiring, trying to keep people connected within a community, trying to generate opportunities for people to get together, find out what a future career may be. look after their health, speak to someone if they've got concerns, you know, try and build a network of support which will benefit people in the long run. Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: and if we can get it to where I'm hoping we can get it to in the next couple of years, then I think it will hopefully really move the dial on kind of changing players' relationships with the sport when they retire. So that's the ambition. Dave: Let's talk about it. Like what what has I obviously know, but the some of the listeners might not. What have you been working with the RPA on over the last twelve months? Mark Lambert: look, I think I think the reality is that structurally the game has never really invested into the retired player space. Now the reasons for that are understandable, right? You know, the sport has all constantly been trying to be financially sustainable, your clubs are trying to keep the lights on, we've had clubs go on, like all of those things make perfect sense. And I think what that's led to is a really difficult relationship between the sport and former players because you give so much of yourself to the sport and then you leave the sport and people feel unsupported. And that's not the case with everyone, but it's it's the case with a lot of people. And the challenge for us as an RPA has been, I think, the expectation of kind of if we're gonna step into this space, we need to be able to do everything. And actually that's inconceivable, right? So when I talk about this, I say If you go into a if you go into a current men's or women's squad, there's fifty, sixty people in a room, right? You can go and talk to them in theory that you've got a captive audience, whether they're listening or not, I don't know. But you know, you've got they're in the sa the same time, they're there at the same time, the same place, same job, pursuing the same goals. The moment every one of those individuals retire, they become an individual immediately, right? So and the needs of that individual vary become more and more varied the further they get away from the game, right? So it is inconceivable that one organization in the RPA can do everything that retired players need. We could have 30 members of staff working full-time with individuals and they'd all be busy, right? So actually the focus for me has been like, what can we do? What are the things that we can deliver incredibly well? And then how can we take a principle of working collaboratively with others to go right how do we build a network of support and it's not about the RPA, it's about the players. How do we generate a network which is a value? So the things which we can do really well are things which for those people who struggle the most. So the the ones the cliff edge you spoke about, the ones who Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: really, really struggle, what does you know, they can access mental health support, they can access professional services around those sorts of things, legal advice, those sorts of things. Dave: Yeah. Mark Lambert: Then over the last twelve months, I've been then sitting above that

trying to develop events that have specific themes about them. So we did a challenge in the mountains last October, which was about getting a community together, raising money for charity, health you know, connection, all of that sort of stuff. We ran a transition weekend at the end of February, which is for players who have retired in the last three or four years. So we had t twenty players together in Oxfordshire, and then we've got two events coming up at the men's and women's premiership final, which is getting players back together, offering them a health check when they're there, so there'll be medical people there. And then again getting the community back together. But then in and around that conversations with clubs, with the league, with the RFU, with club foundations, with commercial partners, whatever it may be. So at a point in the future, I would love us to be the organization that manages and facilitates a network but doesn't own the network. So we may have a thousand points of contact, two thousand points of contact in a network in the future. And someone will come to us and say, I'm interested in. financial services and I live in Somerset and we can go, okay, well here's five people that live in your area that would be willing to go for a coffee. Here's one person who could be a mentor for you. This is where you these are the sort of qualifications you might get. These are the people you should speak to. Or I live in Northumbria and I I don't know what to do for my physical health. Okay, well, these are some people you can go and talk to, these are some local gyms you can go and access. that's kind of the vision of it. And then in terms of what that will do for the game, then you have this big population of people that can then re-engage with the sport really positively, whether that's at a club level or at a league level or an international level. Because where the game is going, there's a real opportunity, I think, for to kind of redress that relationship with the retired players. You look at other sports, the way they celebrate their previous players, you know, the legends of the game, the Hall of Famers, those sorts of things in American sport. there's a fundamentally different relationship between the sport and those who played it previously. So and and the the other thing in rugby is there's so much goodwill out there. There's so much desire to help and support. It's just sends tends to sit in little pockets and actually how do we Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: draw all of that out and and plug it into a a sort of a national network that can be really valuable. Dave: Sounds like really, really good, Lamby. I I understand it's gonna be a lot of work as well. but no, I think that's that's a brilliant ambition to have and and best of luck luck with it. Mark Lambert: Thanks. Dave: Players know that their career's gonna end. Why do you think so many lead preparation until late on in their careers? Mark Lambert: for those that are fortunate enough, if you're earning money from a young age, you don't need to. There's not a need. You're you're not kind of you're not on the burning platform, right? Because you have the contract with the money. And so I think that leads to that kind of psychological dissonance or whatever where you might know it's coming and you can see the thing you can see the thing approaching you, but actually now things are fine. I think there's something about the kind of innate elements of human psychology where it's like it's difficult to conceive of something that hasn't happened yet. You can only sort of pass through the eye of the needle when you pass through the eye of the needle. So and and particularly for players who I actually think in a weird way it's easier for players who have up and down careers, whether that's through injury, whether that's through not getting a contract renewed, not being a first team player, if you're someone who Gets into rugby, always has a contract on the table and broadly plays a lot for over the course of a career and retires when you want. I think that sort of preparation thing is maybe a harder thing to conceptualise. But the reality is, you know, we've just done surveys with retired players across the men's and women's game, and actually really. Whether you retire as a result of injury, as a result of your own choice, any other reason, how long you're in the game, how long ago you retired, the themes are broad, like everyone broadly finds it challenging. So, it's kind of however good it was for you in your career doesn't necessarily correlate with how you're gonna find transition. But if you can prepare for it, if you can find out the things you don't want to do, be inquisitive, speak to other people, get do all the stuff we've spoken about before, then I think it will absolutely one hundred percent help you. And now it may not help you directly, you might not end up in the job you thought you were going to, but it will definitely help you indirectly. Because the older you Dave: Mm-hmm. Mark Lambert: get, the more you realize that network of I can pick up the phone to this person, I can speak to that person. have you spoken to that person, they might be of interest. He's incredibly, Dave: Hm. Mark Lambert: incredibly valuable. and from my point of view, you know, I I thought twice before the age of 21 that I was gonna have to retire as a result of injury. And I played till I was 35. And actually, I'm really grateful for that period of time. As much as it was horrible, it gave me perspective of okay. This is this is definitely going to end because I was a few days away Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: from it ending at twenty one. So actually say yes to the opportunities, say yes to the experiences, go and do the thing, whatever it is. Dave: It's it's really interesting that the research you mentioned there around no matter what the or or how the career ends, that actually broadly speaking the challenges are broadly

similar. And it got me thinking in terms of if you had say a if if a player gave you an an hour a week to invest in themselves for the future, what is the biggest return on their investment for them if if the goal is I want to make sure that I'm as well prepared as I can be for whenever the change comes from player to to real world. Mark Lambert: Yeah, look, I mean I think I think you've got a you've got to that will depend individual to individual, right? so I I I definitely think it's coming maybe summarizing where we've got to. I think it's it's it's trying to not be like, right, it's just this thing. So it's not just the what do I do next. So it might be how am I making sure that I I've got six months of money in the bank when I retire to make sure that I can go through a process and give my time for free to people or whatever it might be. It might be how do I work out or I know the thing I need to do. I need to go and get the qualification to do that thing. But in and around that, I think it's also getting ahead of these other things are going to change as well. And you need to at least be prepared that they're going to change. So you know so Dave: So what are those things, Lamby? Mark Lambert: The structure of your day is gonna change fundamentally, right? The structure of your life is gonna change fundamentally. What you see as normal is is entirely abnormal. So you aren't gonna be well, it's very unlikely you're gonna be told when to be, where someone else is gonna fill your diary for you, someone else is gonna schedule meetings and holidays and all that sort of stuff. You're gonna have to do all of that stuff. I think an awareness that relationships will change. So something we've s at our transition weekend we spoke about it quite a lot. Whether you like it or not, when you're an elite athlete, you are the main character in the life of your family and friends. You may want to be you may love being the main character or you may not love being the main character, but you're the main character regardless because your partner or kids or parents or broader family or friends will have to compromise based on what the needs and demands of your life are, whether they want to or not. and when you retire, you cease to be the main character. That doesn't mean you're not important. You just become as important as everyone else. You you fall back down and join, you know, the the level of importance. And that's a shift in all sorts of different ways. Some people find that quite liberating because then it's I don't great. I don't have to ask people to constantly compromise for me or I get to be around more or I get to do all of these things. But it can also be a challenge of I don't you know I don't get to do that. Sorry, I've got to be in this place now because that's just the thing that has to happen and there's no real discussion about it. There's no two ways about it. So, you know, we we had this transition weekend, we had s one person who was approaching retirement and everyone else who was between six months and four years retired. And there was a lot of conversations around those changes. Like, what does that mean? I d I didn't think about how much it would change for my parents. They've been coming to a rugby match every weekend for the last twenty years of their life and now they don't anymore. What does that mean for Dave: Yeah. Mark Lambert: them? What does that you know, so the the changes can be really broad. But yeah, I think I I would bring it back to if I if I had that hour with someone first and foremost, you need to understand who you are as a person. You may be old enough that you've developed that understanding of yourself, the things that motivate you, you know, what are the elements of doing the professional rugby career that get you out of bed in the morning? Is it the money? Is it the competitiveness? Is it being around people? Is it is it being super fit? Is it, you know, what are those, what are the things that motivate you? And then in life, are you someone who do you want to be in an environment where you work around people? Do you want to be an environment where you build your own thing from the ground up? You know, start to get that kind of self-awareness and then go, right, okay, well, how are we going to begin this process of starting to hone in what those things might look like, whilst alongside Dave: Yeah. Mark Lambert: that going, you gotta be aware that some other stuff's gonna change too. And that's fine, because it does for everyone. Dave: Is there a way that people can do this by themselves or do you think this is always best done with in in combination with someone like yourself or someone just working in that rain remit? Mark Lambert: I mean I it I think it depends who you are. Like I'm I I'm a extrovert person. I've always enjoyed the company of others and I've always been quite an open book as a person. So I'll happily sit down and probably tell people most things about me. Other people are very different. I think I think y coming back to the point around being inquisitive, you can be inquisitive in lots of ways, right? You can you know, re read books, you can broaden your understanding of things, you can look into research, you can just spend time with yourself and your thoughts, whether that's meditating or going for a walk or whatever it is and just, you know, maybe logging that and thinking, this thing sprung to mind and maybe this is something I'd be interested in or find ways to try and switch off the noise of whatever's going on in the in the career at the moment and just think, who is it that I really am? What is it that I really enjoy? But Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: I do I do definitely think there's all there will be a time whether it's straight away or down the line where that ability to say something out loud and get it bounced back to you is is totally invaluable in life. Cause otherwise Dave: Mm. Mark Lambert: it just lives in your head and you don't know whether it's a good thought or a bad thought or rational or irrational. Dave: Yeah. Mark Lambert: So I always think there's value in saying the hard thing out loud and someone going, That makes perfect sense or I totally disagree with that and that's why this is why and you go, Okay, fine. That in some way will be enlightening. Dave: Mm. The whole premise of the podcast and these conversations is that we hopefully can leave the listener with one or two ideas that are actionable like straight away that will improve improve them now and improve their trajectory in the future. From your experience today, what patterns do you repeatedly see from individuals who have transitioned well and you can take that subjectively in? Mark Lambert: Yeah. Dave: Whatever way you want to. Mark Lambert: So given lots of people will have given advice, I'll stay away from the kind of the practical side of it and I'll I just think work out what good relationships look like for you during your career. Foster them, value them and protect them into retirement. And that might be with teammates, that might be with family, that might be with friends away from the game. get good people around you that have your back no matter what that you can be vulnerable with that will support you when you're playing when you're transitioning and into retirement and not because you played 50 games for whoever like that stuff falls away. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't matter. The longer I get away from a career, the more I realize nobody cares what Nobody cares whether you played 250 games or two games. They care about the person you are, how you looked out for them, how you showed up. And you should look for the same in return. So that's my yeah, my big thing is it's not social social connection and the value of relationships is not a nice to have. It's it's the thing which will help you through that process. Dave: That's a a great message to to end on, Lamby. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed that conversation. If people want to get in touch with you, find out more about what you're doing with the RPA or just have a chat, is there anywhere to send them to? Mark Lambert: Yeah, yeah. Feel free to drop me an email. mlambert at the rpa.co.uk. Dave: No spam. Mark Lambert: no spam. But yeah, yeah, love love the opportunity to talk to anyone that's interested in any way about it, because I certainly don't have all the answers. I'm working it out as I go and trying to trying to do the same for for all the men and women that that leave the game in England. Dave: You're doing a great job. Cheers, Lamby. Mark Lambert: Cheers, mate.