Full Transcript for The Guide to Navigating Friendship

sense that our brains go to 73 00:03:55.650 --> 00:03:58.400 that place. I think what can be really freeing is 74 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:04.699 recognizing that our sense of feeling connected, working through those 75 00:04:04.740 --> 00:04:07.759 feelings of loneliness, that actually has very little to do 76 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:10.379 with the size of our social networks. What's much more 77 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:12.930 important than the number of friends we have is the 78 00:04:13.009 --> 00:04:15.610 quality of the connections that we hold on to. And 79 00:04:15.629 --> 00:04:17.730 I think the other piece that's important to point out 80 00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:20.860 is that number will be different for each of us, 81 00:04:20.970 --> 00:04:23.139 partly out of necessity, what we have going on in 82 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:25.500 our lives and how many different directions we're torn in, 83 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:28.420 but also just how many people we need in our 84 00:04:28.459 --> 00:04:32.720 lives to feel connected to and close and supported by. 85 00:04:32.980 --> 00:04:35.639 So there is some research showing that This three to 86 00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:39.029 five number is ideal. But what I can say, both 87 00:04:39.069 --> 00:04:41.649 from personal and professional experiences, that, you know, it really 88 00:04:41.689 --> 00:04:43.790 is about how do I feel? How supportive do I feel? 89 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:47.839 What I do really love that you're saying, almost everything 90 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:50.000 in life is what works for you. 91 00:04:50.019 --> 00:04:50.089 Yes. 92 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:52.040 And so obviously. 93 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:55.199 Everyone can look around and compare themselves. Like how many 94 00:04:55.250 --> 00:04:57.350 friends does that person have? Or on social media, this 95 00:04:57.389 --> 00:05:00.269 person's posting that they're on another girl's trip and I 96 00:05:00.290 --> 00:05:02.649 don't even go on girl's trips. And so you're like, 97 00:05:02.689 --> 00:05:05.529 it's the constant comparison. But what we also know is 98 00:05:05.629 --> 00:05:07.490 why would we want to have what everyone else has? 99 00:05:07.529 --> 00:05:08.670 Like what works for you? 100 00:05:08.709 --> 00:05:09.490 So I love that you're. 101 00:05:09.389 --> 00:05:12.350 Kind of saying like, it really is dependent upon, do 102 00:05:12.629 --> 00:05:14.680 you just, maybe you just need one friend that can 103 00:05:14.709 --> 00:05:18.259 work for you also. I also think with social media, like, 104 00:05:19.220 --> 00:05:21.779 people could be wondering like, oh my gosh, I am 105 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:24.720 invited to weddings and I see other people are invited, 106 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:26.680 but a lot of people I know or on social 107 00:05:26.699 --> 00:05:30.189 media are bridesmaids and I'm never a bridesmaid. Like is 108 00:05:30.250 --> 00:05:32.889 something wrong with me? What would you say to that 109 00:05:32.949 --> 00:05:33.490 for advice? 110 00:05:33.550 --> 00:05:33.810 Yeah. 111 00:05:33.850 --> 00:05:38.189 I mean, I think again, to some extent, certain expectations 112 00:05:38.230 --> 00:05:40.569 and societal norms are at play here, of course. But 113 00:05:40.629 --> 00:05:44.459 to me, what that really potentially highlights is this desire 114 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:48.139 for increased closeness and intimacy and in our friendships. And 115 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.300 I think asking ourselves that question of, is it really 116 00:05:51.379 --> 00:05:54.500 wanting to be a bridesmaid period that's important to me? 117 00:05:54.579 --> 00:05:57.040 Or is it having the kinds of friendships and connections 118 00:05:57.060 --> 00:06:00.319 in my life where that would be something that would happen? 119 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:04.509 And I think when we can approach it through that lens, 120 00:06:04.529 --> 00:06:07.649 we're much more motivated to take action, right? To think 121 00:06:07.769 --> 00:06:10.250 of how can I create that closeness in the friendships 122 00:06:10.290 --> 00:06:12.629 that I have? Or maybe that does mean going out 123 00:06:12.670 --> 00:06:15.560 and making new friends, which can be daunting in and 124 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:16.720 of itself, obviously. 125 00:06:16.740 --> 00:06:19.800 I think it's also common to like, look back and 126 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:24.579 examine how our childhood impacts the romantic. 127 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:25.180 Partners we seek. 128 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.819 But I'm curious to know, how can someone's upbringing impact 129 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.439 the friendships that they select? 130 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:34.980 Yeah, I love this question. And I mean, obviously, now 131 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.079 I'm wearing my therapist hat a little bit, right, where 132 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:40.540 we know that early experiences and early relationships can impact 133 00:06:41.209 --> 00:06:43.829 how we see ourselves later on, how we see other people. 134 00:06:43.990 --> 00:06:49.230 And absolutely, there's very good research to support that early 135 00:06:49.529 --> 00:06:53.430 childhood experiences and friendships in particular can impact our connections 136 00:06:53.449 --> 00:06:55.610 later on in life. And what I think is important 137 00:06:55.629 --> 00:06:57.329 to point out is this can go in so many 138 00:06:57.370 --> 00:06:59.850 different directions. So certainly when we've had the experience of 139 00:06:59.889 --> 00:07:02.589 finding it hard to make friends when we were younger, 140 00:07:02.670 --> 00:07:05.350 to find our place or find our circle, we can 141 00:07:05.529 --> 00:07:08.110 continue to struggle. And that can be extra painful because 142 00:07:08.129 --> 00:07:12.339 we feel like we've never had that close reciprocated connection 143 00:07:12.379 --> 00:07:15.379 that we really long for. But I also see the opposite. 144

00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:17.040 And I see this all the time in my clinical 145 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:20.839 practice where someone who had what they might see as 146 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:24.600 a very successful quote unquote childhood with respect to friendships 147 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.399 is suddenly struggling because, because adult friendships are hard because 148 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:30.620 we've moved. Now we need to build a circle and 149 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.670 new because we're entering into a relationship or having kids. 150 00:07:34.730 --> 00:07:36.829 And now again, we just feel so torn in so 151 00:07:36.850 --> 00:07:39.519 many directions. And that can be really challenging because it's 152 00:07:39.579 --> 00:07:42.639 this question of, well, what's wrong with me? What happened? 153 00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:45.120 What changed? What am I doing wrong that this used 154 00:07:45.170 --> 00:07:48.050 to be so much easier and now I'm struggling? So 155 00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:49.629 I think that's one part of it. And then the 156 00:07:49.689 --> 00:07:51.410 second piece that I think we really need to do 157 00:07:51.430 --> 00:07:54.089 a better job talking about is this idea of friendship 158 00:07:54.129 --> 00:07:58.649 role models, right? How do our parents have and be 159 00:07:59.009 --> 00:08:01.649 a friend to others? How was that modeled for us? 160 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:05.009 Was that spoken about? Was the importance of that kind 161 00:08:05.029 --> 00:08:08.899 of centered around in our family life, all of those conversations, 162 00:08:09.100 --> 00:08:12.759 and just bearing witness to that can definitely impact how 163 00:08:12.930 --> 00:08:14.920 willing and able we are to prioritize friendships later on. 164 00:08:15.050 --> 00:08:18.649 Yeah, that's so interesting, because obviously, it's easier maybe in 165 00:08:18.730 --> 00:08:22.629 childhood to have a few solidified friends. But a lot 166 00:08:22.670 --> 00:08:25.649 of times, that's not even your choice. It's because you 167 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:28.889 are in school, and it's a much easier environment to 168 00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:31.829 circulate a friend group and have it be consistent. Because 169 00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:35.000 Every single Monday through Friday, you're going to either a 170 00:08:35.059 --> 00:08:37.740 sport or school and you're seeing this person where the 171 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.100 minute that we become adults, everything just dissipates and everyone 172 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:44.220 just goes in separate directions. And so it's a complete 173 00:08:44.259 --> 00:08:47.779 different environment where then you look at your parents. 174 00:08:47.899 --> 00:08:48.179 Right. 175 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.639 And it's like most of the relationships when you're looking 176 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:55.580 at adults is. the primary relationship is their children and 177 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:58.850 their partner. And so friendship is something that I personally 178 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.990 think can get kind of put to the wayside of like, oh, 179 00:09:02.129 --> 00:09:06.190 it's just an afterthought. But I agree if you watched your. 180 00:09:06.049 --> 00:09:07.830 Mom or your dad or someone. 181 00:09:07.710 --> 00:09:11.409 Really close to you have those like really close friends, 182 00:09:11.830 --> 00:09:13.549 you can either compare and be like, I don't have 183 00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:16.169 that yet. Or it can be a driving factor as 184 00:09:16.210 --> 00:09:18.620 to why you're able to maintain close friendships because it's 185 00:09:18.629 --> 00:09:21.519 just something that you witnessed growing up. Again, it all 186 00:09:21.539 --> 00:09:24.059 goes kind of like back to our childhood, which is great, 187 00:09:24.179 --> 00:09:27.659 but also a little scary. When we're then thinking about like, 188 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:30.279 I mean, again, as an adult, I'm like we're saying 189 00:09:30.350 --> 00:09:32.830 it's harder to make friends and we need help. What 190 00:09:32.889 --> 00:09:36.129 advice can you give to people who maybe just like 191 00:09:36.610 --> 00:09:39.309 move to a new city or are going through a 192 00:09:39.370 --> 00:09:41.860 life transition and looking to make new friends as an 193 00:09:41.899 --> 00:09:45.360 adult and are feeling depressed? So just down on themselves 194 00:09:45.419 --> 00:09:47.980 of like, it's not working. Why is this not working? 195 00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:50.580 What can I do? Please help give advice. 196 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.889 Yeah. So the first piece is not a sexy answer, 197 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:57.330 but it's just channel that self-compassion, like recognize this is hard, 198 00:09:57.409 --> 00:09:59.350 not because there's anything wrong with you or you're doing 199 00:09:59.370 --> 00:10:02.639 it wrong. but this is hard, full stop. And then 200 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.080 from there, we can take action. And I think what 201 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:08.429 that actually looks like is challenging this idea that friendships 202 00:10:08.509 --> 00:10:12.210 will just happen because we romanticize that, this idea that 203 00:10:12.250 --> 00:10:14.659 we are going to meet this person or even the 204 00:10:14.740 --> 00:10:16.600 circle of friends and we'll hit it off right away. 205 00:10:16.899 --> 00:10:19.940 And what we don't do is talk about the very 206 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.720 significant amount of time and energy and effort that goes 207 00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:25.710 into actually building friendships. We do talk about that when 208 00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:28.070 it comes to dating, right? We talk about using dating 209 00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:31.090 apps and how exhausting that can be at times and 210 00:10:31.470 --> 00:10:36.789 how awkward that can be even, but we don't have 211 00:10:36.830 --> 00:10:41.330 those same kinds of conversations about making

friends when it 212 00:10:41.450 --> 00:10:44.470 does require, again, a certain level of thoughtfulness in terms 213 00:10:44.570 --> 00:10:46.690 of who do I wanna make friends with? What kinds 214 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:48.639 of friends do I wanna make and invite into my life? 215 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:52.100 How am I gonna meet these people? So I think 216 00:10:52.139 --> 00:10:54.379 that is really an important place to start. It's just 217 00:10:54.419 --> 00:10:56.860 accepting that this is hard and that you will need 218 00:10:56.899 --> 00:11:00.659 to do something that probably feels difficult and uncomfortable and 219 00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:01.580 awkward and unfamiliar. 220 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.309 Anyone listening, it's like, I love you the point of like, okay, wait, 221 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:09.450 we have normalized that dating is, dating is a motherfucker 222 00:11:09.590 --> 00:11:13.809 okay it's like whole and like it's like holy shit 223 00:11:14.169 --> 00:11:16.980 why is this so difficult and it's normalized and so 224 00:11:17.029 --> 00:11:19.480 if you're talking about it with friends and family no 225 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:21.399 one is really concerned it's just like god dating so 226 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.019 hard and everyone's like oh god but then with friendship 227 00:11:24.500 --> 00:11:28.320 it's almost like shameful. And there's something that's not talked 228 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:31.259 about as much as like, why would friendship be any 229 00:11:31.460 --> 00:11:34.850 easier to make new adult friends than romantic? If anything, 230 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:38.370 romantic is probably easier because you are, it's a one-on-one 231 00:11:38.470 --> 00:11:40.750 and you're actually looking for a long-term partner. You're not, 232 00:11:41.110 --> 00:11:42.750 there's no one to be like, I'm looking for my 233 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:47.090 long-term best friend like it's such a strange concept so 234 00:11:47.210 --> 00:11:49.789 I think I agree compassion is so important to instill 235 00:11:49.809 --> 00:11:52.649 in ourselves like hey actually friendship is probably harder than 236 00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:55.730 romantic because we're not sleeping together and we're not getting 237 00:11:55.769 --> 00:11:59.549 those like certain benefits it's actually like this mutual understanding 238 00:11:59.570 --> 00:12:00.669 of like we're going to put in a lot of 239 00:12:00.769 --> 00:12:05.090 work to just have people around us that we can 240 00:12:05.590 --> 00:12:07.690 hang out with and vibe with and hopefully agree on 241 00:12:07.750 --> 00:12:11.169 things and enjoy certain activities together but there's no real 242 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:15.360 concrete dating app moment that you're like let's go on 243 00:12:15.419 --> 00:12:18.240 our date and have a romantic evening no yeah that's 244 00:12:18.259 --> 00:12:19.440 just not the case. 245 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.500 Everything you are saying

resonates i mean i think the 246 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.799 takeaway is friendships are fucking hard too right and the 247 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:28.039 reason i think you are touching on this so clearly 248 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:30.299 is that we don't have the same norms the same 249 00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:33.320 social norms right When we think about what a first 250 00:12:33.379 --> 00:12:35.879 date looks like, or even what we might say to somebody, 251 00:12:35.940 --> 00:12:39.450 how we reach out first, how we end a romantic relationship, 252 00:12:39.470 --> 00:12:42.570 what a healthy breakup looks like, it might not always 253 00:12:42.669 --> 00:12:45.110 go according to plan. We might still feel uncomfortable. We 254 00:12:45.309 --> 00:12:48.389 have some framework for what that should look or sound like. 255 00:12:48.450 --> 00:12:50.590 And we do not have that for friendships, or at 256 00:12:50.610 --> 00:12:53.240 least we're not talking about it. So that makes it... Yeah, 257 00:12:53.299 --> 00:12:57.620 at all, frankly. So it makes it extra scary and again, isolating. 258 00:12:57.860 --> 00:13:00.909 And it can put a... But yeah, just a lot 259 00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:02.789 of pressure on somebody to try and come up with 260 00:13:02.950 --> 00:13:05.990 the perfect opening or the perfect answer. And of course, 261 00:13:06.009 --> 00:13:08.070 there isn't one. There are so many different ways to 262 00:13:08.529 --> 00:13:10.860 strike up a conversation and build a friendship. But I 263 00:13:10.889 --> 00:13:13.820 think a big part of that just comes from recognizing 264 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.720 that this is going to be hard and we are 265 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.419 going to need to get comfortable with discomfort. Yeah. 266 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:22.070 And I also think while you were saying that, it 267 00:13:22.110 --> 00:13:25.149 made me think of like, there's a reason you have 268 00:13:25.450 --> 00:13:27.990 your job and your specialty. And there's a reason we're 269 00:13:28.009 --> 00:13:30.769 making this episode. Like, if you're listening to this, you're 270 00:13:30.809 --> 00:13:33.629 not alone. This isn't just for one person that's like, hey, 271 00:13:33.690 --> 00:13:35.370 you're the one loser that doesn't have friends. 272 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:35.750 No, no, no. 273 00:13:35.769 --> 00:13:38.529 This is like almost like an epidemic of people in 274 00:13:38.549 --> 00:13:42.009 their 20s leaving college and not being close to their 275 00:13:42.070 --> 00:13:45.289 original friend group that was so instilled in college, in 276 00:13:45.330 --> 00:13:47.750 high school. And now you're sitting there listening to this 277 00:13:47.789 --> 00:13:50.559 podcast being like, oh, my God, I just feel like. 278 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:52.840 I'm the only one. Well, no, no, no. This reaches 279 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:53.539 millions of people. 280 00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:55.720 I'm telling you, so many

people are going to message 281 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:58.139 me after this being like, thank you so much for this. 282 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:00.879 So let yourself know you're not the only one. 283 00:14:00.940 --> 00:14:03.580 Yeah, I love that. I think we definitely underestimate the 284 00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:05.730 extent to which other people are also looking for friends. 285 00:14:05.830 --> 00:14:07.710 And then the other problematic thing that we do is 286 00:14:07.750 --> 00:14:10.669 we actually underestimate the extent people like us and people 287 00:14:10.710 --> 00:14:13.289 are interested in being our friend. And when those two 288 00:14:13.350 --> 00:14:15.950 things happen at the same time, we can close ourselves 289 00:14:16.090 --> 00:14:19.700 off from connections that might be really meaningful. And I 290 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:22.200 think there's also this idea that the friendships we build 291 00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:26.139 later on in life will somehow be less less meaningful 292 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.429 or less close or less impactful than those friendships that 293 00:14:28.450 --> 00:14:30.230 we maybe had when we were younger, that we longed 294 00:14:30.269 --> 00:14:32.309 for when we were younger. And that also we can 295 00:14:32.370 --> 00:14:35.230 throw out the window. That's bullshit. We can absolutely make 296 00:14:35.429 --> 00:14:38.940 meaningful friendships later on in life. You have not missed 297 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:41.700 the boat that, you know, the time is now or 298 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.200 later if you're not ready. There's no, there isn't pressure. 299 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.919 But I think, yeah, opening ourselves up to the fact 300 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:49.289 that we can do something. We can create those friendships 301 00:14:49.309 --> 00:14:50.690 that we've really been looking for. 302 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:52.240 I love that. 303 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.169 I mean, I always look at my mom has like 304 00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:57.490 a lot of different friend groups, but one of her best, 305 00:14:57.549 --> 00:15:00.379 best friends she met, they she like lived up the 306 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:02.360 street from us and she was just having kids at 307 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.240 the same time as my mom and they are inseparable 308 00:15:05.340 --> 00:15:08.830 and they met in their late 30s, 40s. And I'm like, okay, 309 00:15:08.970 --> 00:15:11.610 let's listen to that for a second. Shout out Mary 310 00:15:11.649 --> 00:15:13.730 and Lori because they're like, I know they listen all 311 00:15:13.769 --> 00:15:15.889 the time, but like my mom's best friend, Mary is 312 00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:17.230 just like her best friend. 313 00:15:17.269 --> 00:15:18.789 And they met when they were basically 40. So I'm like, 314 00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:19.490 hold up. 315 00:15:20.090 --> 00:15:23.269 There is an opportunity in different stages of your life also, 316 00:15:23.309 --> 00:15:25.929 where I do think adult relationships can be beautiful because, 317 00:15:26.230 --> 00:15:29.289 and not to say again, more beautiful than a childhood friend, 318 00:15:29.350 --> 00:15:34.090 but it's, they're just as sacred, because you're also meeting 319 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.029 someone at a time in your life where you feel 320 00:15:37.090 --> 00:15:39.649 pretty fully formed. This is a little bit of a 321 00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:43.700 different situation. But let's say one of your good friends 322 00:15:44.169 --> 00:15:48.120 just moved to the city where you've been living for years, 323 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:51.940 and you have an established friend group, you have worked 324 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:55.529 really hard to get like a pretty good group. And Meanwhile, 325 00:15:55.889 --> 00:15:59.629 you're the only person that your friend knows. Well, when 326 00:15:59.649 --> 00:16:02.409 they move to this new city and it's beginning almost 327 00:16:02.429 --> 00:16:05.120 to feel like an obligation to include them in all 328 00:16:05.129 --> 00:16:07.580 of your plans. But at the same time, you do 329 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.259 feel responsible to include them and make sure they're adjusting 330 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:12.000 to a new city where they know no one. So 331 00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:14.279 you don't want to be an asshole, but you're also 332 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:17.289 trying to have boundaries. What advice do you have for 333 00:16:17.330 --> 00:16:18.190 navigating this? 334 00:16:18.389 --> 00:16:21.090 Yeah. This is a great question. And actually, I have 335 00:16:21.129 --> 00:16:23.110 to say, I do hundreds of these interviews. I don't 336 00:16:23.129 --> 00:16:26.990 think I've ever been asked this question. So I love that. 337 00:16:27.330 --> 00:16:29.309 I love being able to, you know, talk through these things. 338 00:16:29.370 --> 00:16:31.889 I mean, to me, it brings up two different sides here. 339 00:16:32.029 --> 00:16:34.850 One is you hit the nail head, the issue of boundaries, right? 340 00:16:34.889 --> 00:16:37.370 What boundaries can I set? Do I feel comfortable setting 341 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.169 might be helpful to set here to both, you know, 342 00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:42.970 preserve this circle of friends that I've worked so hard 343 00:16:42.990 --> 00:16:45.360 to create and to preserve this connection that I have 344 00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:49.320 with this person that I care about. And sometimes, I 345 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.600 think we need to reevaluate our relationship with boundaries because 346 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:54.139 we think of boundaries and setting boundaries as something we 347 00:16:54.179 --> 00:16:56.990 are doing to somebody else. We're doing this and it's 348 00:16:57.029 --> 00:17:00.090 against them. It's at the detriment of the relationship or 349 00:17:00.110 --> 00:17:03.210 the friendship. And really what boundaries are about are

preserving 350 00:17:03.269 --> 00:17:05.690 our connections and preserving the healthy parts of our connections. 351 00:17:06.049 --> 00:17:11.599 And so if you are feeling, you know, depleted, or 352 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.000 if you're feeling like you're just putting so much energy 353 00:17:14.019 --> 00:17:16.980 into supporting this person as they build their network, or 354 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.400 you're feeling like this is somehow a threat to the 355 00:17:19.420 --> 00:17:22.349 other connections that you have, it might be important to 356 00:17:22.390 --> 00:17:24.329 set a boundary because that is the thing that's going 357 00:17:24.349 --> 00:17:26.529 to allow you to stay connected to this friend in 358 00:17:26.569 --> 00:17:28.750 a healthy way. So I think that's part of it. 359 00:17:28.829 --> 00:17:30.269 The other thing that I do think is important to 360 00:17:30.309 --> 00:17:32.769 question is why do I feel so uncomfortable with this? 361 00:17:32.910 --> 00:17:35.289 And not everyone will experience this, even if they're in 362 00:17:35.309 --> 00:17:38.359 the same situation. There are some people where introducing one 363 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.579 friend to a circle of friends just feels really exciting 364 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:43.769 and they're happy to suddenly be this cohesive group. But 365 00:17:43.869 --> 00:17:46.630 for other people and for other reasons, that doesn't feel 366 00:17:46.670 --> 00:17:50.170 so great. And that happens for a variety of reasons. 367 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:52.829 Sometimes that is about a fear of, I don't want 368 00:17:52.869 --> 00:17:56.250 the dynamic of this friend group to change. Sometimes that's 369 00:17:56.309 --> 00:17:59.130 about the fear of, I don't want this friend to 370 00:17:59.210 --> 00:18:02.619 take away these friends that I've worked so hard to build. 371 00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:06.130 And there can be a almost like this threat or 372 00:18:06.150 --> 00:18:09.130 this anxiety that creeps in there. And sometimes it's just about, 373 00:18:09.549 --> 00:18:13.369 you know, tolerance to uncertainty and just not wanting worlds 374 00:18:13.430 --> 00:18:15.269 to mesh. And I think that's especially true when we 375 00:18:15.309 --> 00:18:18.369 talk about, you were saying this before, new friends that 376 00:18:18.390 --> 00:18:21.619 we've built as adults and friendships that we created when 377 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.140 we were younger. And so sometimes that blending of worlds 378 00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:26.420 can feel, again, really threatening. So I think getting in 379 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.960 touch with your why, why am I feeling uncomfortable? What's 380 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.400 going on here? That is an important step in figuring 381 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:32.619 out how you want to handle it as well. 382 00:18:33.289 --> 00:18:36.119 I really love that advice too, because when you talk 383 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.059 about boundaries, I feel like I have personally gone through that. 384 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.079 I have had it multiple times and I have been 385 00:18:43.099 --> 00:18:45.549 the one that has been in the situation where a 386 00:18:45.589 --> 00:18:48.109 friend is coming or even like a sibling or whatever. 387 00:18:48.289 --> 00:18:50.730 And I feel so I feel a lot of stress 388 00:18:50.769 --> 00:18:53.490 to make sure that they're integrating and finding friends. But 389 00:18:53.529 --> 00:18:55.450 I also think the boundary is so great, too, because 390 00:18:55.490 --> 00:19:00.170 it's like you also want them to find their own group. 391 00:19:00.369 --> 00:19:03.430 And and sometimes if they're relying too heavily on you, 392 00:19:03.809 --> 00:19:06.970 they're not giving themselves a chance to see what they 393 00:19:06.990 --> 00:19:09.450 would have done if you weren't in that city or 394 00:19:09.579 --> 00:19:12.420 wherever you are. So I think that there's a balance 395 00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:15.279 of the boundary of being a good friend and making 396 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.000 them not feel like every single weekend you're leaving them 397 00:19:18.019 --> 00:19:20.960 high and dry. I think there's times to do alone 398 00:19:21.019 --> 00:19:23.299 time with them. There's times to allow them to come 399 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:26.400 to group things. And then there's also moments to encourage 400 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:28.240 them of like, you know what really worked for me 401 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:30.980 when I came? I got into this pottery class or 402 00:19:31.059 --> 00:19:32.920 I started going to this yoga class or whatever it 403 00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:35.579 is that you're into. And maybe you have very different 404 00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:37.819 interests than that friend. So you're like, I feel like 405 00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.079 you are obsessed with X, Y, Z. Like I know 406 00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:44.140 a friend that joined a class. You guys should go together. 407 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.849 So it's like allowing them to, do things on their 408 00:19:48.009 --> 00:19:50.049 own but providing like hey I've been here for a 409 00:19:50.069 --> 00:19:52.430 little bit longer. Let me give you some advice. So 410 00:19:52.470 --> 00:19:54.759 not leaving them high and dry, but also kind of 411 00:19:54.819 --> 00:19:57.759 trying to create the boundary of we also are individual 412 00:19:57.799 --> 00:19:59.579 human beings. And as adults, we don't want to hang 413 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.099 out all the time. We're not in a relationship. So 414 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.660 independence and having your own lane is important. 415 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:07.880 Yeah. And I think I think, again, it's that balance 416 00:20:07.900 --> 00:20:11.369 between being connectedness and independence as you're talking about, and 417 00:20:11.390 --> 00:20:13.670 then also balancing the different types of interactions that

you 418 00:20:13.690 --> 00:20:18.980 can have one-on-one time, group time, time alone, potentially meeting 419 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:20.960 the new friends that this other person goes on to make. 420 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.619 All of those things can be really helpful for kind 421 00:20:23.640 --> 00:20:26.380 of spreading things out and making it feel manageable and healthy. 422 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:28.259 And the other thing is a bit of a self-boundary too, 423 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:30.200 because sometimes what we do is we take on that 424 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.849 responsibility or that feeling of, I need to help this person. 425 00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:34.920 I need to get them settled. I need to make 426 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.099 them happy in this new place when they might actually 427 00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:41.460 not be asking for that. And so I think we 428 00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:43.880 really want to be careful about the assumptions that we're making, too. 429 00:20:45.019 --> 00:20:47.259 Such a good point. OK, I'm going to take that 430 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:48.079 note for myself. 431 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:54.240 What if two friends realize that they really only speak 432 00:20:54.309 --> 00:20:57.549 when there's something difficult going on in their lives and 433 00:20:57.710 --> 00:21:01.130 otherwise they might actually drift apart? 434 00:21:01.549 --> 00:21:02.670 Is that problematic? 435 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:09.759 I mean, that's actually a really interesting and complicated question 436 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:15.000 in some ways. And I'll tell you why. Because from 437 00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:19.920 my experience, I think the closest and the healthiest friendships 438 00:21:20.059 --> 00:21:22.720 are ones that have a balance. Meaning, yes, we do 439 00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:25.740 feel comfortable opening up about the difficult things, the hard things, 440 00:21:25.779 --> 00:21:28.539 the things that make us feel scared and vulnerable. And 441 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:31.839 we also have the space and trust to open up 442 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.609 about the really great things. And I'll add that for 443 00:21:34.690 --> 00:21:37.619 some people, that actually feels more vulnerable and that feels 444 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.039 scarier to share when things are going really well. Because 445 00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:43.180 we worry for whatever reason that if we put it 446 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:45.720 out there, it's going to be taken away because we 447 00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:50.329 worry about creating a connection or dynamic that feels competitive 448 00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:52.930 because we worry about making somebody else feel inferior or 449 00:21:52.970 --> 00:21:54.769 that we're going to be coming across as boastful, all 450 00:21:54.809 --> 00:21:57.009 kinds of reasons, right? But I do think that there's 451 00:21:57.049 --> 00:22:01.220 something to be said for that type of balance in friendships. Um, 452 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.160 the interesting thing though, about what you're saying is that 453 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.359 both friends recognize that this is going on and that, 454 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:09.849 that actually is a little bit rarer. I would say 455 00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:13.769 from my experience, it's more common that one person might 456 00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:15.849 be picking up on that dynamic. And for one reason 457 00:22:15.869 --> 00:22:18.329 or another, the other person isn't quite there. If you're 458 00:22:18.349 --> 00:22:20.049 in a place where both of you are recognizing this, 459 00:22:20.069 --> 00:22:22.019 or you think that both of you are recognizing this, 460 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:23.900 or you want to check in about that, I actually 461 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:30.940 would encourage you to do that in a very non-blaming, open, 462 00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:33.299 curious kind of a way. And what that sounds like 463 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:36.369 is something like, hey, I've been noticing that we tend 464 00:22:36.450 --> 00:22:39.109 to do a really great job of supporting each other 465 00:22:39.130 --> 00:22:42.170 when things are tough. And I feel really connected to 466 00:22:42.210 --> 00:22:45.099 you and close to you when that's happening. But do 467 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.859 you get the sense that we don't talk as much 468 00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:48.279 when things are going well? And why do you think 469 00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:51.059 that is? And approaching it from one, that place of curiosity, 470 00:22:51.140 --> 00:22:52.960 what do you think is going on here? And two, 471 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:55.450 framing it as a dynamic. This is something that we 472 00:22:55.549 --> 00:22:57.849 are doing. This is a dynamic that we have created, 473 00:22:57.970 --> 00:23:00.609 as opposed to you only show up for me when 474 00:23:00.650 --> 00:23:03.329 things are hard, or I only have the time for 475 00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:06.670 you when when something really difficult is going on in 476 00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:11.079 your life. So I think having those discussions and communicating 477 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.490 about your communication, that's what we call meta communication. That's 478 00:23:14.609 --> 00:23:16.789 actually super helpful in our friendships. 479 00:23:17.829 --> 00:23:19.029 That's so interesting. 480 00:23:19.049 --> 00:23:21.569 And I love that advice because I feel like that's 481 00:23:21.630 --> 00:23:24.210 something that maybe you would start to work on in 482 00:23:24.250 --> 00:23:25.569 a romantic relationship. 483 00:23:25.630 --> 00:23:26.509 Yet again, there's all. 484 00:23:26.410 --> 00:23:29.299 These rules and these guidelines of like, you got to communicate. 485 00:23:29.539 --> 00:23:34.400 But in friendships, there's not really that guide to be like, hey, 486 00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:37.140 you if you like the dynamic but you just want 487

00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:40.019 to check in with your friend check in and just 488 00:23:40.059 --> 00:23:41.589 be like how are you feeling about this because i 489 00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:43.609 actually am good i know our lives are so busy 490 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:45.829 you're like my go-to person when i'm going through it 491 00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:47.759 i'm your go-to person when you're going through it like 492 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:49.319 that's kind of just our mo. 493 00:24:05.940 --> 00:24:11.980 It's here. Heineken Greenlight. October Bank Holiday Weekend Galway. Big acts. 494 00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:16.609 Intimate venues. Friday, October 23rd. Catch Joshua E. 495 00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:18.029 Dayhen at Monroe's. 496 00:24:18.349 --> 00:24:22.990 Saturday, October 24th. Catch High at Electric. Sunday, October 25th. 497 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:27.170 Catch Get Down Services at the Roshin Dove. Sunday, October 25th. 498 00:24:27.690 --> 00:24:30.849 Catch Shugaboo and Ahmed with Love at Onplukon. 499 00:24:31.130 --> 00:24:34.470 Tickets at heinekengreenlight.ie. Get the facts if you drink aware. 500 00:24:34.509 --> 00:24:35.190 Visit drinkaware.ie. 501 00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:40.950 What about kind of like you were talking about, like, 502 00:24:41.069 --> 00:24:46.259 let's say someone is upset that they have been feeling 503 00:24:46.339 --> 00:24:48.900 distant from their friend lately and they call them up 504 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.640 and they say, you know, you don't really call me 505 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.650 enough anymore. And it doesn't seem like you're invested in 506 00:24:55.710 --> 00:24:56.769 our friendship. 507 00:24:56.390 --> 00:24:58.990 The way that you used to be. It's like you forgot. 508 00:24:58.730 --> 00:25:01.269 About me and I put in all the work. What 509 00:25:01.349 --> 00:25:04.630 is a better way to approach this type of conversation? 510 00:25:04.650 --> 00:25:07.630 Because I know a lot of my listeners feel this 511 00:25:07.690 --> 00:25:10.430 way and don't know how to approach a friendship when 512 00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:12.029 this dynamic is in play. 513 00:25:12.349 --> 00:25:15.230 Yeah, because it is really hard, right? I mean, and frankly, 514 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.079 doing that in any relationship can feel difficult, but especially 515 00:25:18.099 --> 00:25:20.680 in a friendship where, yeah, we don't emphasize that type 516 00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:24.119 of open communication and transparency. So it makes sense that 517 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.460 this is hard. And oftentimes when you're in that situation, 518 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:29.059 there's a lot of uncertainty about how will the friend 519 00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:33.240 will respond. And I think what, I mean, nothing makes 520 00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:36.069 me angrier than thinking about this experience that so many 521 00:25:36.089 --> 00:25:38.289 of us have had where you ask a friend like, hey, 522 00:25:38.329 -->

00:25:41.569 what's going on? Are you mad at me, right? Or like, 523 00:25:42.009 --> 00:25:43.710 I'm just checking in and the friend says, oh no, 524 00:25:43.730 --> 00:25:46.529 nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong. And clearly something is wrong, right? 525 00:25:47.029 --> 00:25:50.130 And that type of a response is something that tends 526 00:25:50.170 --> 00:25:53.450 to be much more common when we're younger because saying again, 527 00:25:53.470 --> 00:25:59.539 I am feeling resentful, I'm feeling jealous, I'm feeling anxious, 528 00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:01.700 whatever it is, that's difficult. And so people tend to 529 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:03.799 be a little bit more conflict avoidant, because those are 530 00:26:03.819 --> 00:26:06.160 skills we need to build, blah, blah, blah. But I 531 00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.539 think having had those experiences, it makes it a lot 532 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.619 harder to then do this as an adult, because we 533 00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:20.990 aren't always expecting a clear, transparent response, or we also 534 00:26:21.109 --> 00:26:24.190 fear what that might be. So I think, again, owning 535 00:26:24.230 --> 00:26:26.589 that this is hard. And the big thing here is 536 00:26:26.630 --> 00:26:29.190 instead of focusing on the friend's behavior, you haven't called 537 00:26:29.210 --> 00:26:33.240 me enough. You seem distant. You aren't supporting me. I 538 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.559 really want to encourage people to flip the script and 539 00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:38.140 to instead focus on what are your needs? What are 540 00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:41.819 you experiencing in this moment? And frame it as an opportunity. 541 00:26:42.369 --> 00:26:45.990 not a challenge. I'd really like to be able to 542 00:26:46.049 --> 00:26:49.269 connect more often. I love talking to you. I feel 543 00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:54.000 so supported during our conversations. Can we make that happen? 544 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.559 And also, obviously, focusing on what you can do. So 545 00:26:57.619 --> 00:27:01.420 not necessarily expecting the other person to be the one 546 00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:03.099 to change or to be the only one to change, 547 00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:05.380 but how can I make our friendship easier for you? 548 00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:07.849 I know you're so busy validating that. Is there a 549 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.450 way that we can connect more often or make things 550 00:27:10.490 --> 00:27:13.890 feel a So again, focusing on what are your needs? 551 00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:16.069 What can you do? And when you do talk about 552 00:27:16.089 --> 00:27:18.109 the other person, talk about it as a dynamic, not 553 00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:19.410 something that the other person is doing. 554 00:27:19.569 --> 00:27:21.769 I know I do really appreciate that advice. 555 00:27:21.809 --> 00:27:24.930 Because I think when we when the like our emotions 556 00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:28.099 get the best

of us, we are like ruminating on 557 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:29.960 these thoughts of like, She doesn't call me anymore. 558 00:27:29.980 --> 00:27:31.559 She doesn't text. I'm always the one. 559 00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.539 And so then you get in your head and it's 560 00:27:33.579 --> 00:27:36.180 almost like word vomit when you get to that conversation. 561 00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:39.119 But I really and I've done it. But I do 562 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:41.849 think that I've learned and you're giving. 563 00:27:41.930 --> 00:27:44.869 The great advice of like, if you can try to 564 00:27:44.970 --> 00:27:47.990 regulate the way that you're about to spew all that 565 00:27:48.130 --> 00:27:51.170 onto this person, because you've been having all these thoughts. 566 00:27:51.930 --> 00:27:54.660 they may not be thinking this or they have something 567 00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:57.079 on their chest that they want to get off. And 568 00:27:57.140 --> 00:28:00.490 so always starting with an I statement I've learned in 569 00:28:00.509 --> 00:28:03.369 therapy is like the best because you really don't know 570 00:28:03.410 --> 00:28:04.890 what this person is thinking and you don't know what 571 00:28:04.910 --> 00:28:07.920 they're going through. And more so coming from like a, 572 00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:11.480 I love you so much. And I, so appreciate our 573 00:28:11.539 --> 00:28:13.660 friendship and I love hanging out with you I love 574 00:28:13.700 --> 00:28:16.380 being with you and I don't know if you felt 575 00:28:16.420 --> 00:28:17.700 this way but I feel like maybe we've been a 576 00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:19.880 little distant lately and keeping it the we and don't 577 00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.430 put it on them and say like is there anything 578 00:28:23.829 --> 00:28:26.769 that we can do to try to see each other 579 00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:28.269 more because I would love to see it also I 580 00:28:28.309 --> 00:28:29.890 wanted to check in with you of like how are 581 00:28:29.950 --> 00:28:32.490 you doing and like how are you feeling because all 582 00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:33.869 of a sudden they could be like you know what 583 00:28:34.450 --> 00:28:36.269 I've been really going through it and they tell you 584 00:28:36.309 --> 00:28:38.230 this big long thing or they're like you know what 585 00:28:38.269 --> 00:28:40.230 I think I'm just like we've just been growing apart 586 00:28:40.269 --> 00:28:42.569 and you're right like it's just not coming in a 587 00:28:42.609 --> 00:28:46.109 confrontational way because you're the one that's thought about this 588 00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:48.299 not them yet and you need to try to meet 589 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:49.940 them halfway. 590 00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:52.180 Yes exactly and sometimes actually that last point is really 591 00:28:52.220 --> 00:28:54.799 important because if if this is a situation where you've 592 00:28:54.819 --> 00:28:57.220 been thinking a lot about this maybe because it's more 593 00:28:57.279 --> 00:28:58.839 noticeable to you or you tend to be a little 594 00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:01.440 bit more self-reflective or although you have more time all 595 00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:05.880 the reasons right this friend might need some time to 596 00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:08.180 sit on it, to think about what do I really want? 597 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.569 How do I feel about this friendship? How invested am I? 598 00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:12.680 Can I make this work? And so I think giving 599 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:17.039 someone the chance to take that time, look, I know I'm, 600 00:29:17.180 --> 00:29:18.779 you know, I know I just threw a lot at 601 00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:21.190 you and, you know, put this up in the air. 602 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.680 If you want a few days or whatever it is 603 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:25.539 to think about it, like I'm here and I'm not 604 00:29:25.579 --> 00:29:27.539 going anywhere and I'm ready to have this conversation when 605 00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:30.079 you are. Sometimes that's a really helpful strategy for making 606 00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:32.579 sure that you have a healthy communication relationship. 607 00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:35.519 It's such a good point, because I think on the 608 00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:38.430 other side, we can all relate to whether it was 609 00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:41.619 romantic or a family. member or a friendship coming to 610 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:44.140 us and us not having any idea the bomb they 611 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:46.079 were about to drop and we're like wait what like 612 00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:48.279 I didn't even realize I was doing that in the 613 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.480 moment you don't have the opportunity to collect your thoughts 614 00:29:51.609 --> 00:29:54.150 and like sit and think about it and be mindful 615 00:29:54.569 --> 00:29:56.309 and so I agree with you I think giving your 616 00:29:56.349 --> 00:29:58.529 friend the space not in like a passive-aggressive way of 617 00:29:58.549 --> 00:30:00.970 like I also know I I I was thinking about 618 00:30:01.009 --> 00:30:03.750 bringing this up to you. And so I want you 619 00:30:03.769 --> 00:30:05.490 to have the same amount of time to think about 620 00:30:05.549 --> 00:30:07.690 how you feel about that. There's no pressure. Just know 621 00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:09.430 I love you so much. I want to spend more time. 622 00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:13.079 And there's zero pressure on like saying whatever you're feeling now. 623 00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:15.599 Take your time and like let's get lunch next week 624 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:19.480 and keep the conversation going. So let's say that two 625 00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:25.440 friends are very close and have an overall pretty healthy relationship. 626 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:29.650 But recently, one of the friends has been is absolutely 627 00:30:29.710 --> 00:30:32.490 going through it. Her boyfriend broke up

with her, her 628 00:30:32.549 --> 00:30:35.509 job laid her off, and overall, she's just been really down. 629 00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:37.990 And the two friends are normally there for each other 630 00:30:38.009 --> 00:30:40.710 during difficult times. But the one friend that's not going 631 00:30:40.769 --> 00:30:45.250 through it is becoming so emotionally drained with all of 632 00:30:45.289 --> 00:30:48.829 the support that is required for this friendship. How do 633 00:30:48.869 --> 00:30:52.089 you approach a conversation that you care about your friend, 634 00:30:52.190 --> 00:30:54.150 but you do need to put some boundaries in place? 635 00:30:54.190 --> 00:30:56.759 Because I can't like, they're like, I can't be your 636 00:30:56.890 --> 00:30:59.400 only person you're dumping on because it's getting exhausting and 637 00:30:59.420 --> 00:31:00.400 I'm starting to resent you. 638 00:31:00.420 --> 00:31:00.799 Yeah. 639 00:31:01.220 --> 00:31:03.259 So parts of this might sound a little bit like 640 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:05.420 a broken record, but I think this is important to 641 00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:08.160 emphasize and such an important question to ask. I mean, 642 00:31:08.180 --> 00:31:12.349 I think starting from a place of validation, I care 643 00:31:12.390 --> 00:31:14.589 about you. I care about our connection. I want you 644 00:31:14.609 --> 00:31:17.519 to feel supported. I know this is really hard for you. 645 00:31:17.670 --> 00:31:21.269 That is the place to start. There is no question 646 00:31:21.289 --> 00:31:23.170 in my mind. That is the place to start. From 647 00:31:23.259 --> 00:31:26.690 there- Again, instead of saying you're too much, this is 648 00:31:26.789 --> 00:31:29.799 too much for me, I think shifting to that place 649 00:31:29.859 --> 00:31:31.720 of I really want to be able to support you 650 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:34.440 and give you what you need because I care about you. 651 00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.640 And in order for me to do that, I need to. 652 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.849 And that might look different. The response to that question 653 00:31:42.869 --> 00:31:44.569 of what do I need to do to continue supporting 654 00:31:44.589 --> 00:31:47.069 this person, that might sound different. That might mean setting 655 00:31:47.089 --> 00:31:49.839 boundaries and not talking as often. That might mean going 656 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:51.900 to get more support from other people in your life, 657 00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:54.740 which I would absolutely recommend. Anytime we're in that caregiver role, 658 00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.380 we also need our needs to be met. And sometimes 659 00:31:57.420 --> 00:31:59.660 that actually might mean, again, checking some of our assumptions, 660 00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:03.759 because I think there is this belief that when somebody 661 00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:06.069 is going through a hard time, all of the effort 662 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:07.869 and focus and attention should be on this person and 663 00:32:08.170 --> 00:32:12.289 that they are not capable of returning that type of support. 664 00:32:12.309 --> 00:32:15.730 And that isn't always true. Sometimes, of course, and we 665 00:32:15.750 --> 00:32:17.849 want to be sensitive to that, but sometimes sometimes we 666 00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:20.049 also want to show up for other people when we 667 00:32:20.089 --> 00:32:21.869 ourselves are struggling. And that feels good to be able 668 00:32:21.910 --> 00:32:25.009 to contribute in that way. So challenging some of those assumptions, 669 00:32:25.069 --> 00:32:28.369 being present and really being intentional about seeking out what 670 00:32:28.430 --> 00:32:32.319 you need. And I would also say, sometimes those situations 671 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:36.359 really warrant a conversation. And sometimes that boundary is much 672 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.039 more internal, meaning sometimes I don't actually need to say 673 00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:41.759 anything to this friend. I am just setting that boundary 674 00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:45.210 with myself of, I know this is what I need. 675 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:48.200 I am not going to pick up the phone in 676 00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:50.140 the middle of the night every time, or I'm going 677 00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:55.339 to put my phone on silent after 9pm because I 678 00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:57.140 don't want to get into this before bed, or I 679 00:32:57.220 --> 00:32:59.789 am going to really go out and make sure that 680 00:32:59.829 --> 00:33:01.529 I'm opening up to some other friends about what's going 681 00:33:01.589 --> 00:33:03.809 on in my life. So it isn't, you know, I'm 682 00:33:03.849 --> 00:33:06.329 talking a lot about the importance of open communication, but 683 00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:10.269 that doesn't always mean it's a direct conversation. It can 684 00:33:10.329 --> 00:33:12.559 be But we want to be clear about why we're 685 00:33:12.579 --> 00:33:13.980 bringing it up and what that might be like. 686 00:33:14.259 --> 00:33:16.359 We are our own worst enemy sometimes and we can 687 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:19.380 get so in our own heads of like thinking the worst. 688 00:33:19.460 --> 00:33:22.019 And so I love that you're also saying like, okay, 689 00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:26.109 first of all, maybe it almost goes back to if 690 00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:28.269 a new friend moves here and you're constantly feeling like 691 00:33:28.309 --> 00:33:29.490 the pressure, like you need to show them around. 692 00:33:29.529 --> 00:33:30.589 Well, did they ask? 693 00:33:30.849 --> 00:33:33.569 Maybe this person's coming to you because you're constantly being like, 694 00:33:33.730 --> 00:33:34.369 how are you doing? 695 00:33:34.450 --> 00:33:35.089 How is it going? 696 00:33:35.809 --> 00:33:38.569 And so they're like, well, let me dump because sure. 697 00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:41.910 So it's like first recognizing, are you setting any

boundaries? 698 00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:44.740 And then I also do think like communication in a 699 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:47.019 positive way of like, I know you're going through it 700 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:51.859 and I'm I am also dealing with my classic own shit. 701 00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:54.480 And I really want to make sure that when I 702 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.170 can't fully be present, whether I'm dealing with work shit 703 00:33:57.190 --> 00:33:59.509 or my own personal stuff, that you have the support. 704 00:33:59.670 --> 00:34:01.349 And I think that last point was so good too 705 00:34:01.390 --> 00:34:03.990 of just like, hey, boundaries, like you don't always have 706 00:34:04.009 --> 00:34:07.450 to answer. You can be so present in the moment 707 00:34:07.619 --> 00:34:09.880 when you decide to engage, but you also don't have 708 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:12.599 to answer because you're a fully formed human being that 709 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:14.179 has their own life and their own job and their 710 00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:17.039 own shit going on. Let's say one friend is single. 711 00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:20.340 and going out every weekend, and the other friend is 712 00:34:20.380 --> 00:34:23.480 married and looking to start a family. What is your 713 00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:27.320 best advice to maintain friendships when people are on completely 714 00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:29.400 different pages and at different points in their lives? 715 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.199 Yeah, I think being honest with each other about what 716 00:34:33.300 --> 00:34:39.030 those situations or life stages or experiences mean practically, because 717 00:34:39.269 --> 00:34:42.769 there can be very practical considerations that come with that, right? 718 00:34:42.989 --> 00:34:47.090 You know, My mom, I have two little kids like 719 00:34:47.369 --> 00:34:52.170 talking around. the five to seven window is generally not 720 00:34:52.230 --> 00:34:54.820 gonna work for me because my kids are losing it 721 00:34:54.949 --> 00:34:57.920 and I am losing it. That is just the pattern 722 00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:59.860 that we do. That's the dance that we do, right? 723 00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:03.000 So being honest with somebody else about this is what 724 00:35:03.460 --> 00:35:07.059 life looks for me at that moment and doing a 725 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.960 little bit of that problem solving of like, one, I 726 00:35:10.980 --> 00:35:12.510 wanna know what doesn't work so well for you, but 727 00:35:12.550 --> 00:35:14.329 also here's what does work for me and let me 728 00:35:14.349 --> 00:35:16.090 know what does work for you. And maybe that's, again, 729 00:35:16.130 --> 00:35:18.110 about the time of day that you're connecting. Maybe that's 730 00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:21.019 about the kinds of, Activities that you can share, certain 731 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:24.849 days that are just easier than others or whether planning 732 00:35:24.889 --> 00:35:27.349 ahead works really well or making last minute plans. So 733 00:35:27.409 --> 00:35:30.610 talking about all of that is really important. And I 734 00:35:30.650 --> 00:35:32.449 also think, and this is something that you touched on earlier, 735 00:35:33.030 --> 00:35:35.630 we really want to be intentional as much as possible 736 00:35:35.750 --> 00:35:40.929 about preserving time. some of the sacredness of our friendship 737 00:35:41.170 --> 00:35:44.869 that existed before, before this life stage, before this experience, 738 00:35:44.889 --> 00:35:47.329 before other people came into the picture. And so what 739 00:35:47.389 --> 00:35:50.489 that means very often is, can I carve out one-on-one 740 00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:54.389 time to connect in a really present way? Can we 741 00:35:54.429 --> 00:35:56.360 continue to do one of the things that we used 742 00:35:56.389 --> 00:35:59.860 to really love doing together? like going for walks on 743 00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:03.079 the weekend or going to the market or the flea market, 744 00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:05.739 whatever it is, like, can we prioritize that? Maybe not 745 00:36:05.780 --> 00:36:08.559 every week, maybe even not every month, but making an 746 00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:11.269 effort to at least communicate that that's important to you 747 00:36:11.369 --> 00:36:13.869 and that you value that even with all the changes 748 00:36:13.909 --> 00:36:15.329 that are going on in one of your lives. 749 00:36:15.909 --> 00:36:20.190 So talking about friend groups here, I mean, they are difficult. 750 00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:22.469 And when you're in a friend group, I'm curious if 751 00:36:22.489 --> 00:36:25.650 you have any advice about like, what if two people 752 00:36:26.010 --> 00:36:30.329 in the group do not necessarily get along and you 753 00:36:30.409 --> 00:36:32.730 feel stuck in the middle? 754 00:36:33.289 --> 00:36:34.909 How the hell do we navigate this? 755 00:36:35.170 --> 00:36:35.530 Yeah. 756 00:36:36.190 --> 00:36:36.409 Yeah. 757 00:36:36.489 --> 00:36:39.429 I mean, there are there. I don't want to say 758 00:36:39.449 --> 00:36:42.219 there are no good answers here. But it can sometimes 759 00:36:42.409 --> 00:36:45.659 feel that way, right? Because it is a really sticky situation. 760 00:36:45.699 --> 00:36:48.349 And actually, Part of the work that I did when 761 00:36:48.369 --> 00:36:50.809 I was in graduate school, getting my PhD in clinical psychology, 762 00:36:50.849 --> 00:36:53.769 was to research adult friendships. And one of the questions 763 00:36:53.789 --> 00:36:55.909 that we were looking at was, what are the different 764 00:36:56.289 --> 00:36:58.989 interpersonal challenges that come up? What are the different difficult 765 00:36:59.010 --> 00:37:02.659 situations that people experience in their friendships? And this conflict 766 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.960 of being caught in the middle... is one of the 767 00:37:06.019 --> 00:37:09.199

more common and difficult friendship challenges that we go through. 768 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.340 So you're like, you're onto something if you're finding this difficult. 769 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:18.719 I think, again, this is where boundaries can be important. 770 00:37:18.929 --> 00:37:21.969 And sometimes those are more personal boundaries. And sometimes that 771 00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:26.010 might mean more interpersonal boundaries. And saying, look, for example, 772 00:37:27.050 --> 00:37:29.690 I love you, but I also, you know that I 773 00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:32.969 love this other friend. And I'm finding it difficult because 774 00:37:33.030 --> 00:37:34.530 I'm feeling like I'm a little bit caught in the 775 00:37:34.550 --> 00:37:36.579 middle because I want to support both of you again, 776 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:41.219 focusing on yourself. And so what that means is for 777 00:37:41.260 --> 00:37:45.000 right now, I really am not comfortable hearing about this conflict, right? 778 00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:47.320 That might be a step that you feel the need 779 00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:51.550 to take. But people differ depending on what the situation 780 00:37:51.590 --> 00:37:53.940 is and whether this is a feeling of being caught 781 00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:56.559 in the middle or whether the people around you have 782 00:37:56.599 --> 00:37:59.539 certain expectations of you in terms of taking sides. And 783 00:37:59.579 --> 00:38:04.090 so how you handle that will differ. But it is challenging. 784 00:38:04.869 --> 00:38:07.070 Yeah, I love that you're saying it's really hard. 785 00:38:07.289 --> 00:38:09.369 And I do think some advice also can be like, 786 00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:14.719 The issue is not with you, but getting caught in 787 00:38:14.739 --> 00:38:18.150 the middle is very difficult. And so I would I 788 00:38:18.210 --> 00:38:22.150 think that communicating immediately like, hey, I get it. You 789 00:38:22.170 --> 00:38:24.510 guys have your thing going on. And I really hope 790 00:38:24.530 --> 00:38:28.199 you guys can hash this out. But I want to 791 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:31.199 be so transparent that I really enjoy both of you. 792 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:33.219 And I don't want to be put in the middle. 793 00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:35.909 Because I don't want either of you to think that 794 00:38:35.929 --> 00:38:37.809 I'm going and talking shit on you and then bouncing 795 00:38:37.849 --> 00:38:40.570 back and forth. So like, I totally get it if 796 00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:42.510 you need to vent and talk to someone, but I 797 00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:44.460 feel like I'm the wrong person because I don't want 798 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.199 either of you to think I'm betraying your trust if 799 00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:48.739 you share something with me confidentially. Then it kind of 800 00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:51.360 removes you and they're like, oh, well, shit. 801 00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:53.039 Okay. So I agree.

802 00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:56.030 It's almost creating a boundary for yourself because Everyone's going 803 00:38:56.050 --> 00:38:58.230 to have issues with people at some point in their lives. 804 00:38:58.630 --> 00:38:59.710 But being stuck in. 805 00:38:59.670 --> 00:39:03.349 The middle is just almost a placeholder for someone to 806 00:39:03.429 --> 00:39:06.030 just end up getting hurt themselves when the issue is 807 00:39:06.050 --> 00:39:06.750 not even yours. 808 00:39:07.230 --> 00:39:07.780 And I get it. 809 00:39:07.809 --> 00:39:10.469 There's a difference between then being someone that is like, 810 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:12.460 I don't have a side. I'm just going to stay 811 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:14.820 in the middle. Like, don't be that annoying person that 812 00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:17.739 just like doesn't have a backbone is like, I like everyone. 813 00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:20.360 But then is like also listening when the one friend 814 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:21.880 is talking shit and then you go to the next 815 00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:22.989 friend while they're talking shit. 816 00:39:23.260 --> 00:39:24.070 That's not fair. 817 00:39:24.130 --> 00:39:26.409 So I think creating a boundary for yourself and to 818 00:39:26.449 --> 00:39:28.670 them verbally will allow them to not feel like you're 819 00:39:28.949 --> 00:39:29.630 double dipping. 820 00:39:29.710 --> 00:39:29.889 Yeah. 821 00:39:29.989 --> 00:39:31.710 I mean this is easier said than done but your 822 00:39:31.750 --> 00:39:33.340 comment made me think of it I think you don't 823 00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.280 you don't want your friends to feel like you're not 824 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:37.059 taking a side you want your friends to feel like 825 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:38.340 you're taking both of their sides. 826 00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:39.719 Because at the end of the day you love them 827 00:39:39.780 --> 00:39:41.659 both you want everyone to come back together and have 828 00:39:41.699 --> 00:39:43.559 a great time yeah that's. 829 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:47.260 It But this brings up another really important point, which 830 00:39:47.300 --> 00:39:50.440 is that friendships do change and friendship dynamics and friendship 831 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:54.599 groups do change. And so sometimes, yes, sitting in it 832 00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:58.079 and being in it and working through it is possible. 833 00:39:58.099 --> 00:39:59.760 And you get back to that place where the conflict 834 00:39:59.780 --> 00:40:03.260 has been navigated and people are close again and everything's sunny. 835 00:40:03.699 --> 00:40:06.800 And sometimes that's it's almost like this is the beginning 836 00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:08.489 of the end, right? And I think that this is 837 00:40:08.650 --> 00:40:12.869 really common again in friendship groups and in friendships in 838 00:40:13.130 --> 00:40:16.750 our 20s where those changes are playing out. And so 839 00:40:16.769 --> 00:40:18.179 that can bring with it like quite a bit of 840 00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:22.019 sadness too, of like things are changing. And this is 841 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.300 the beginning of this friend group as we knew it. 842 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:27.579 That was about to be my next question of like, 843 00:40:28.349 --> 00:40:31.030 If someone is wondering whether or not they need to 844 00:40:31.150 --> 00:40:34.309 end a friendship, what types of questions should they be 845 00:40:34.510 --> 00:40:35.469 asking themselves? 846 00:40:35.530 --> 00:40:40.070 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, this is, I think, one 847 00:40:40.230 --> 00:40:42.809 of the most important friendship experiences that we need to 848 00:40:42.849 --> 00:40:44.030 be talking about because this. 849 00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:50.500 There are very few people who have never lost a friendship. 850 00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:53.949 And the reasons why we lose touch with friends or 851 00:40:53.969 --> 00:40:58.090 we go through, you know, quote unquote, friendship breakup really differs. Sometimes, yes, 852 00:40:58.170 --> 00:41:01.630 it is this big, what I like to call a transgression, right? 853 00:41:01.650 --> 00:41:03.809 Somebody has done something to really violate one of those 854 00:41:03.849 --> 00:41:06.110 friendship norms. And that just feels like, I can't trust you. 855 00:41:06.139 --> 00:41:06.840 That's a betrayal. 856 00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:07.619 I'm out. 857 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:11.159 But more often than not, it's actually the kind of 858 00:41:11.260 --> 00:41:14.820 gradual growing apart of, I don't feel as close to you. 859 00:41:14.860 --> 00:41:17.179 I don't feel as connected to you. I've changed. And 860 00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:19.329 so we no longer connect the same way we used 861 00:41:19.369 --> 00:41:22.170 to or just life circumstances make it so that we 862 00:41:22.210 --> 00:41:26.789 can't keep in touch. And that can be even more 863 00:41:26.829 --> 00:41:30.469 complicated sometimes, because when there's a very clear transgression, we 864 00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:33.389 almost feel like we've it's easier to give ourselves permission 865 00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:35.590 to let go, right? Well, yes, of course, I'm going 866 00:41:35.610 --> 00:41:37.380 to end that friendship. They did this terrible thing and, 867 00:41:37.650 --> 00:41:40.769 you know, screw them. But when it's, well, we just 868 00:41:40.809 --> 00:41:42.329 don't really connect the same way, or I just don't 869 00:41:42.349 --> 00:41:43.889 really feel as close to them, or we just don't 870 00:41:43.909 --> 00:41:45.239 share the same values, or we don't live in the 871 00:41:45.260 --> 00:41:47.659 same city. We can really feel like we need a 872 00:41:47.699 --> 00:41:51.159 permission slip to end a friendship. And I think for me, 873 00:41:51.260 --> 00:41:53.280 one of the most telling questions is, do I want 874 00:41:53.300 --> 00:41:55.239 to stay in this friendship or

do I feel obligated to? 875 00:41:55.800 --> 00:41:58.079 That to me is so powerful and something that we 876 00:41:58.179 --> 00:42:01.449 don't often check in with ourselves about. And those shoulds, 877 00:42:01.489 --> 00:42:04.090 those obligations can come from so many different places, right? 878 00:42:04.269 --> 00:42:05.909 Our ideas about what it means to be a good 879 00:42:05.949 --> 00:42:09.099 friend or a good person. There's a lot of talk. 880 00:42:09.139 --> 00:42:11.059 I hear this all the time about like, you know, 881 00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:14.639 how beautiful and special childhood friends are. Yes, absolutely. But 882 00:42:14.780 --> 00:42:17.659 only when you still feel close, not when this isn't 883 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:20.739 somebody who you really would ever choose to be with. 884 00:42:20.780 --> 00:42:21.000 Right. 885 00:42:21.619 --> 00:42:25.010 Um, So I think, yeah, that question of choice versus 886 00:42:25.050 --> 00:42:27.690 obligation is important. And really, and this actually comes back 887 00:42:27.710 --> 00:42:29.750 to what we were first talking about, how do I feel, right? 888 00:42:29.789 --> 00:42:31.409 How do I feel when I'm with this person, when 889 00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:34.190 I spend time with them? When I see my phone 890 00:42:34.230 --> 00:42:36.570 ringing or a text message, am I dreading that it's them? 891 00:42:36.630 --> 00:42:38.230 Or do I feel a little bit of a spark? 892 00:42:39.050 --> 00:42:43.079 Those questions are so important. And balancing that with this 893 00:42:43.139 --> 00:42:47.510 idea of patterns or history and chronicity because yes there 894 00:42:47.530 --> 00:42:49.269 are always going to be moments where our best friend 895 00:42:49.329 --> 00:42:51.010 says something that pisses us off and I don't feel 896 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:52.570 great in that moment don't say that fucking thing right 897 00:42:52.969 --> 00:42:55.630 but if we're feeling that all the time that is 898 00:42:55.670 --> 00:42:58.860 tough that is really tough so looking at the overall 899 00:42:58.889 --> 00:43:01.559 big picture as much as possible looking for patterns that 900 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:02.159 is key. 901 00:43:02.139 --> 00:43:04.280 It's such good advice and I guess one of my 902 00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:06.599 last questions though is like I could see people listening 903 00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:09.039 and being like oh my god I do relate to 904 00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:12.210 that but do you feel and I guess it is 905 00:43:12.250 --> 00:43:17.489 circumstantial of like When is a conversation. 906 00:43:16.670 --> 00:43:19.030 Warranted to end a friendship? 907 00:43:19.130 --> 00:43:21.849 And when is it okay to just slowly let it 908 00:43:21.949 --> 00:43:23.780 burn out because you're both kind of on the same 909 00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:25.440 page or like we're not really talking anymore? 910 00:43:25.460 --> 00:43:25.539 Yeah. 911 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:28.300 Oh my

gosh, I could talk about this for far 912 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.019 too long. So, so this too was one of those 913 00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:32.739 things that I studied actually, like what are the different 914 00:43:32.780 --> 00:43:35.059 ways that we do and our friendships? And yes, having 915 00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:38.210 the explicit conversation is one of those ways. And that 916 00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:39.889 is one of those social norms, again, that we have 917 00:43:39.909 --> 00:43:43.099 in our romantic relationships. We want the conversation. We expect it. 918 00:43:43.150 --> 00:43:46.750 We need that for clarity and closure very often, but 919 00:43:46.769 --> 00:43:49.539 we feel very differently about when it comes to our friendships. 920 00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:52.699 And actually, this is so interesting. A lot of people 921 00:43:53.130 --> 00:43:55.650 crave that or will report that they crave that. And 922 00:43:55.670 --> 00:43:57.909 I do these polls in my online Instagram community all 923 00:43:57.949 --> 00:43:59.889 the time talking about these kinds of things. And the 924 00:44:00.110 --> 00:44:03.070 vast majority of people will say, yes, I want that clarity. 925 00:44:03.110 --> 00:44:05.190 I want to know that this friendship was over. But 926 00:44:05.210 --> 00:44:07.150 when you ask them, well, are you doing that for 927 00:44:07.190 --> 00:44:09.369 other people? Or do other people do that for you? No. 928 00:44:09.530 --> 00:44:11.570 And so there's such a mismatch between what we actually 929 00:44:11.630 --> 00:44:14.559 want and what's actually happening. I would say very often 930 00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:18.119 the slow fade and fizzle out is what happens. And 931 00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:21.409 that works well until it doesn't. And very often what 932 00:44:21.449 --> 00:44:24.289 I see is that people start to do that. And 933 00:44:24.309 --> 00:44:26.309 when both people are on the same page, great. But 934 00:44:26.329 --> 00:44:28.349 when one friend is still kind of one foot in, 935 00:44:28.409 --> 00:44:30.809 one foot out and or really invested in the other 936 00:44:30.849 --> 00:44:33.710 person is just checked out. That doesn't work so well. 937 00:44:33.750 --> 00:44:36.989 People want answers. And so, sure, try the slow fade, 938 00:44:38.139 --> 00:44:40.320 but you might still end up at the conversation. And 939 00:44:40.340 --> 00:44:41.860 so I think we need to be talking about how 940 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:43.099 do we have those conversations? 941 00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:46.800 Yes. And how do we have those conversations? 942 00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:50.780 You're like, oh, do you have five hours? No, that's 943 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:54.559 a very fair follow-up question. People really differ here. It's 944 00:44:54.579 --> 00:44:55.980 funny you bring this up. There was something that went 945 00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:58.980 very viral on TikTok a couple of weeks ago. I 946 00:44:59.000 --> 00:45:01.920 don't know if she was a therapist or someone modeling 947 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:05.639 this type of friendship breakup discussion. And people were so 948 00:45:05.780 --> 00:45:09.190 split about like, that is really respectful or that feels 949 00:45:09.250 --> 00:45:12.429 completely robotic. And I would just feel horrific if that 950 00:45:12.449 --> 00:45:18.539 happened to me. Um, I think again, this is, this 951 00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:20.860 is going to be painful. And I think owning that 952 00:45:21.139 --> 00:45:25.800 there is probably no one right way to do this 953 00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:28.469 where people will leave feeling like that was fun. I'd 954 00:45:28.510 --> 00:45:30.090 have that conversation again. 955 00:45:30.190 --> 00:45:30.429 Right. 956 00:45:30.769 --> 00:45:33.190 But sometimes it does need to be had because we 957 00:45:33.250 --> 00:45:37.230 want to one, make it clear that this is is 958 00:45:37.389 --> 00:45:40.409 the ending of this connection, that I can't invest in 959 00:45:40.449 --> 00:45:41.820 this friendship in the way that I used to or 960 00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.159 in the way that you want me to, to make 961 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:46.400 those expectations clear. And that's really important when somebody continues 962 00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:48.559 to reach out and we feel like they're not getting 963 00:45:48.579 --> 00:45:50.380 the message or we feel like this is just taking 964 00:45:50.420 --> 00:45:52.820 a toll on our wellbeing. So being clear about what 965 00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:54.840 you're able to do and what you're expecting or what 966 00:45:54.860 --> 00:45:58.079 you're not able to do, that's important. This idea of 967 00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:01.460 having mutual friends, this is also important, right? Because sometimes 968 00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:03.460 it's not just about that one friendship ending, it's what 969 00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:05.590 that means for the friend group. And so sometimes having 970 00:46:05.610 --> 00:46:08.420 a discussion about like, How are we going to share 971 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.699 custody of our mutual friends? Like what's going to happen here? 972 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:15.150 Those kinds of conversations might need to be had. And 973 00:46:15.230 --> 00:46:17.329 sometimes there are also friendships where we're ending it, but 974 00:46:17.349 --> 00:46:21.110 we potentially want to pick this back up. This isn't because, again, 975 00:46:21.150 --> 00:46:23.989 somebody's done something egregious or we just really dislike the 976 00:46:24.010 --> 00:46:26.539 other person. It's just not right now. And so sometimes 977 00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:30.139 those conversations are like us closing the door, but also 978 00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:32.059 leaving it a little bit ajar so that we can 979 00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:34.219 pick it back up if or when it makes sense. 980 00:46:35.130 --> 00:46:35.610 I agree. 981 00:46:35.730 -->

00:46:37.329 And like, not that I want to be like bread 982 00:46:37.409 --> 00:46:39.989 crumbing friends here. But I as you were saying that 983 00:46:40.219 --> 00:46:42.340 I do think there is something to be said for 984 00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.960 if you feel like a conversation is warranted, and you 985 00:46:46.019 --> 00:46:48.400 don't want it to be as dramatic as you genuinely 986 00:46:48.460 --> 00:46:51.860 feel in your heart. You can always say like, I 987 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:56.320 just feel like right now our relationship is not serving 988 00:46:56.530 --> 00:46:58.610 either of us in the way that it used to. 989 00:46:58.969 --> 00:47:02.980 And I've been feeling like I'm going to be honest 990 00:47:03.019 --> 00:47:04.280 with you. Like if I get a text from you 991 00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:06.369 or something and, and I, it could be on me. 992 00:47:06.530 --> 00:47:08.449 It could be what I'm going through. I don't like, 993 00:47:08.469 --> 00:47:10.329 you know, you're, I know you're going through stuff, but like, 994 00:47:10.769 --> 00:47:12.349 there's just something right now where. 995 00:47:12.250 --> 00:47:13.849 I think I need to take a break from this. 996 00:47:14.190 --> 00:47:15.579 I don't hate you. I love you. 997 00:47:15.610 --> 00:47:17.300 Like, I wish you the best, but I think right 998 00:47:17.340 --> 00:47:19.659 now I'm not in a place right now to, be 999 00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.320 putting as much into this friendship as maybe we used 1000 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:22.699 to be. 1001 00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:23.739 And that's that. 1002 00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:25.639 And then what ends up happening is you're not like, 1003 00:47:25.820 --> 00:47:28.699 we're never going to be friends ever again. Like it's 1004 00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.559 more just, they'll get the hint because you did sort 1005 00:47:31.579 --> 00:47:33.719 of have this direct conversation of saying, I can't put 1006 00:47:33.739 --> 00:47:36.449 more into this. And then if they are, if they 1007 00:47:36.530 --> 00:47:38.829 end up texting you the next week, you don't have 1008 00:47:38.889 --> 00:47:41.869 to answer. And if they then continuously text you, then 1009 00:47:41.889 --> 00:47:45.150 they're pretty unselfaware. But I mean, I also, it brought 1010 00:47:45.190 --> 00:47:47.050 up for me and I know we're coming to the 1011 00:47:47.090 --> 00:47:50.039 end here, but I did end a friendship like right 1012 00:47:50.059 --> 00:47:52.050 before I went to college. And it was with someone 1013 00:47:52.090 --> 00:47:55.340 that I was like... so so close with but it 1014 00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:58.210 had gotten to a point where I just felt like 1015 00:47:58.670 --> 00:48:03.449 I kept being used for certain social things but then 1016 00:48:03.489 --> 00:48:07.110 when I needed the person it was like blowing me 1017 00:48:07.329 --> 00:48:09.289 off in like moments where I was like dressed and 1018 00:48:09.309 --> 00:48:12.030 ready to go to the party and she was she 1019 00:48:12.110 --> 00:48:14.969 actually like never answered me because she wanted to go 1020 00:48:15.340 --> 00:48:17.099 and have all the guys and like not invite me 1021 00:48:17.179 --> 00:48:19.280 all these crazy things just kept happening that in my 1022 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.039 mind I felt so burned and so hurt and And 1023 00:48:22.059 --> 00:48:23.760 then there was a big thing that ended up happening 1024 00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:26.280 right before college where she didn't pull through and show up. 1025 00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:28.480 And for myself, I knew if I'm going to go 1026 00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:31.699 to college, I, this could be a good opportunity for 1027 00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:33.400 me to get some distance from this person that I'm 1028 00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:36.179 so close to. And I had that conversation. I said, listen, 1029 00:48:36.420 --> 00:48:39.300 this whole, these past two years have just been, I 1030 00:48:39.340 --> 00:48:41.880 feel like I'm getting really let down and maybe I'm 1031 00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:44.639 putting myself out there too much. Maybe I'm, I feel 1032 00:48:44.659 --> 00:48:46.880 like maybe I've been doing a little more and you're, 1033 00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.050 you maybe are at a different point in our friendship. 1034 00:48:49.090 --> 00:48:51.280 And so, I think I need a little bit of 1035 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:53.789 a break so that I cannot, I don't want to 1036 00:48:53.809 --> 00:48:56.630 have resentment towards you. And so I think sometimes, again, 1037 00:48:56.690 --> 00:49:01.360 it's like owning it yourself. There's nothing to say from 1038 00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:03.659 the other person. If you're like, I kind of feel 1039 00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:04.900 like I need a little break. 1040 00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:06.840 Maybe I just feel like maybe I'm not getting what 1041 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:07.699 I want out of this. 1042 00:49:07.739 --> 00:49:10.239 Like you can almost act a little selfishly because then 1043 00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:12.670 there's nothing for the other person to say and you're 1044 00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:14.230 taking care of yourself and your boundaries. 1045 00:49:14.349 --> 00:49:16.269 Yeah, it doesn't become a conversation where they're trying to 1046 00:49:16.329 --> 00:49:19.769 convince you otherwise. And some of that might happen, but 1047 00:49:19.809 --> 00:49:23.329 it's not. the same flavor as it might be. Totally. 1048 00:49:23.349 --> 00:49:25.969 Because you're not going at them saying, you did this 1049 00:49:26.030 --> 00:49:28.360 and you did that. Then they can defend themselves. If 1050 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:30.099 it's how you feel, no one can tell you how 1051 00:49:30.139 --> 00:49:31.659 you feel. Only you can say how you feel. 1052 00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:32.300 Exactly. 1053 00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.449 And I think you... you sharing that example is so 1054

00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:37.820 helpful because it sounds like that happened at somewhat of 1055 00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:40.860 a transition period. And we do see that friendships change 1056 00:49:40.949 --> 00:49:44.110 during transition periods. Some people lose touch, some people become closer, 1057 00:49:44.650 --> 00:49:46.989 but I think, to your point before about like, what 1058 00:49:47.030 --> 00:49:49.789 questions should we be asking ourselves? We also want to 1059 00:49:49.829 --> 00:49:52.250 ask ourselves, is the energy that I'm putting into this 1060 00:49:52.289 --> 00:49:54.690 friendship that like really isn't serving me, is that taking 1061 00:49:54.710 --> 00:49:57.929 me away from other connections, from other relationships and friendships 1062 00:49:57.949 --> 00:49:59.690 that I have right now, from other ones that I 1063 00:49:59.750 --> 00:50:02.489 might want to build, from could be, would be friends. 1064 00:50:03.030 --> 00:50:07.179 That is really important because we all will need to 1065 00:50:07.219 --> 00:50:09.380 make new friends throughout our lives. Like there's very cool 1066 00:50:09.420 --> 00:50:12.360 research showing that as we grow and when we become 1067 00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:15.280 adults in our 20s and beyonds, we lose half our 1068 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:18.409 friend group every seven years, but we also replace half 1069 00:50:18.469 --> 00:50:21.309 our friend group. And so there's this constant fluidity in 1070 00:50:21.349 --> 00:50:23.780 our friendships where we are ending connections, but also in 1071 00:50:23.820 --> 00:50:26.340 a position where we are tasked with making new ones. 1072 00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:28.269 Such a good point. 1073 00:50:28.530 --> 00:50:30.570 And just to also wrap up that story, I was 1074 00:50:30.610 --> 00:50:33.960 thinking like, we now talk after we didn't talk all 1075 00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:36.719 of college, and she reached out after college, and we 1076 00:50:36.760 --> 00:50:39.619 have like a totally mutual friendship. And it's like, there's 1077 00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:43.420 no bad beef. And it's now though, at the expectation 1078 00:50:43.460 --> 00:50:45.760 that I think we both are comfortable where I had 1079 00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:49.010 enough time to heal from constantly feeling like I was 1080 00:50:49.070 --> 00:50:52.250 being fucked over or left behind and I was unable 1081 00:50:52.329 --> 00:50:55.219 to focus on other friendships. And now in our adult life, 1082 00:50:55.409 --> 00:50:57.639 we're not, of course, as close at all, but there 1083 00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.980 is a mutual respect and an understanding. And I do 1084 00:51:01.059 --> 00:51:02.500 think that is really healthy. 1085 00:51:02.579 --> 00:51:03.179 And I agree. 1086 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:05.780 I've made so many friends in my adult life now 1087 00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:08.420 and have my childhood friends that I'm still close with. 1088 00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:11.699 But it's it's understanding that they're all going to evolve 1089 00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:13.929 and they're all going to change. But you have to 1090 00:51:13.969 --> 00:51:17.269 be self-aware enough to know what part you're taking in 1091 00:51:17.329 --> 00:51:20.309 that change and that evolution. And I know it's sad 1092 00:51:20.610 --> 00:51:23.010 and I know it's scary, but knowing, like you said, 1093 00:51:23.269 --> 00:51:26.510 you will find new friends and maybe they will be 1094 00:51:26.630 --> 00:51:29.429 even stronger because you're meeting them at a time and 1095 00:51:29.469 --> 00:51:31.010 it's a different time in your life where you feel 1096 00:51:31.110 --> 00:51:33.690 more you than you ever have. And so I just, 1097 00:51:33.829 --> 00:51:35.929 I love everyone listening and I want you guys to 1098 00:51:36.699 --> 00:51:38.800 hopefully take a lot from this episode because I know 1099 00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:42.659 friendship is a vital part of surviving and living and 1100 00:51:42.739 --> 00:51:45.280 feeling like you have self-worth and you have a purpose. 1101 00:51:46.070 --> 00:51:49.090 But let's normalize that it can be very, very difficult. 1102 00:51:49.389 --> 00:51:51.530 And social media makes it look like everyone's got a 1103 00:51:51.570 --> 00:51:54.980 million friends. That is not the case. And you are 1104 00:51:55.019 --> 00:51:55.500 not alone. 1105 00:51:55.619 --> 00:51:56.900 So Dr. 1106 00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.500 Kermire, I cannot thank you enough for coming on. We 1107 00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:01.840 definitely need to have another conversation at some point. 1108 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:04.340 We probably could have talked for five hours. 1109 00:52:05.019 --> 00:52:06.380 I don't want to shut up. You just said that. 1110 00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:08.139 And I'm thinking like, oh, we should talk about levels 1111 00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:10.150 of friendship. There's so many other things to talk about. 1112 00:52:10.809 --> 00:52:12.289 Oh my God, we should, you know what? 1113 00:52:12.369 --> 00:52:15.170 We should, let's connect and we should do an episode 1114 00:52:15.210 --> 00:52:17.690 about levels of friendship because again, I think this is 1115 00:52:17.710 --> 00:52:22.659 like a multi-tiered episodic theme that really, I think everyone 1116 00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:24.800 would love to hear more and more about just because 1117 00:52:25.179 --> 00:52:27.260 even sitting here today, it gives me a lot to 1118 00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:29.219 think about. I'm sure you thought a lot about your 1119 00:52:29.260 --> 00:52:31.920 personal friendships and I think everyone listening would love to 1120 00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.579 keep the conversation going. So thank you so much for 1121 00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:37.409 bringing your expertise, but also don't go away because we. 1122 00:52:37.329 --> 00:52:38.429 Should do another episode soon. 1123 00:52:38.550 --> 00:52:39.389 Okay, sounds good. 1124 00:52:40.309 --> 00:52:41.829 Thank you so much for coming on. 1125 00:52:41.869 --> 00:52:49.440 Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. 1126 00:52:58.510 --> 00:52:59.110 It's here. 1127 00:52:59.130 --> 00:53:03.530 Heineken Greenlight. October Bank Holiday Weekend Galway. 1128 00:53:03.869 --> 00:53:04.530 Big acts. 1129 00:53:05.030 --> 00:53:05.860 Intimate venues. 1130 00:53:06.510 --> 00:53:09.150 Friday, October 23rd, catch Joshua E. 1131 00:53:09.190 --> 00:53:10.590 Dayhen at Monroe's. 1132 00:53:10.889 --> 00:53:15.530 Saturday, October 24th, catch High at Electric. Sunday, October 25th, 1133 00:53:15.989 --> 00:53:18.329 catch Get Down Services at the Roisin Dove. 1134 00:53:18.670 --> 00:53:19.710 Sunday, October 25th. 1135 00:53:19.769 --> 00:53:25.869 Catch Shugaboo and Ahmed with Love at Onplukon. Tickets at heinekengreenlight.ie. 1136 00:53:25.969 --> 00:53:27.699 Get the facts if you drink aware. Visit drinkaware.ie.