TRANSCRIPT 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.652 --> 00:00:03.792
Demetria: Welcome to Bookruptcy, a
podcast about reading by two people
00:00:03.792 --> 00:00:05.435
who are not trying to impress you.
00:00:05.796 --> 00:00:06.536
I'm Demetria!
00:00:07.124 --> 00:00:09.517
Magali: And I'm Magali, and this
is our place to discuss all the
00:00:09.517 --> 00:00:12.581
stuff that we're actually reading,
whether or not we're proud of it.
00:00:17.556 --> 00:00:20.756
So Demetria, you texted me
about this last week, and I have
00:00:20.756 --> 00:00:22.366
been on tenterhooks ever since.
00:00:22.566 --> 00:00:25.406
Tell me everything about your
beef with The Song of Achilles.
00:00:25.942 --> 00:00:26.362
Demetria: Yes.
00:00:26.402 --> 00:00:33.412
Okay, I have been texting you just nonstop
things that I am annoyed about in "Song
00:00:33.412 --> 00:00:37.672
of Achilles," and I want to try to put
this in some kind of rational order here.
00:00:38.022 --> 00:00:43.182
And I feel like the logical place to
start here is explaining where I'm coming
00:00:43.182 --> 00:00:49.512
from specifically with Greek myth, uh,
interpretations, remixes, adaptations…
00:00:49.812 --> 00:00:54.492
you might have noticed my name is
Demetria, uh, which means that I
00:00:54.772 --> 00:00:59.102
have a certain angle from which I
get a little bit annoyed at certain
00:00:59.102 --> 00:01:02.932
Greek myth adaptations, specifically
re: the Persephone-Hades thing.
00:01:03.188 --> 00:01:04.528
Magali: What are you talking about?
00:01:04.548 --> 00:01:09.124
That's like, the softest boy just
gently asking a girl to dance in the
00:01:09.124 --> 00:01:10.674
underworld for six months, right?
00:01:11.142 --> 00:01:12.172
Demetria: Oh my God.
00:01:12.502 --> 00:01:18.062
So part of the reason that I don't read
a lot of Greek myth reinterpretations
00:01:18.112 --> 00:01:23.972
is that I was actually raised by an
archeologist whose specialty was Greece.
00:01:24.482 --> 00:01:30.352
So I am very familiar with a lot of the
mythology, but I also kind of lacked
00:01:30.372 --> 00:01:33.752
that… There, there's a stage that
a lot of people in fandom go through
00:01:33.752 --> 00:01:38.875
where they get very intensely attached
to Greek myth as sort of a fandom.
00:01:39.255 --> 00:01:44.445
Um, I have a weird experience because
there is always a little bit of my
00:01:44.445 --> 00:01:47.805
brain when I see something that is
based on Greek myth that's going,
00:01:48.265 --> 00:01:53.025
"Oh, that's my mom's work." It lacks,
it lacks of the mystique, I think.
00:01:53.445 --> 00:01:58.285
I also-- I don't want to claim to have
been, like, someone who grew up in Greece,
00:01:58.285 --> 00:02:02.055
but I did spend a year living in Greece
and then spent some summers in Greece.
00:02:02.105 --> 00:02:06.515
So I have a little bit more familiar…
sort of relationship with what
00:02:06.525 --> 00:02:10.015
modern Greece looks like than a
lot of people who are romanticizing
00:02:10.015 --> 00:02:12.745
it solely through Greek mythology.
00:02:13.135 --> 00:02:17.675
Which I would say does give a little
bit of an interesting flavor to
00:02:17.675 --> 00:02:19.125
my relationship with Greekness.
00:02:20.103 --> 00:02:20.193
Magali: Yeah.
00:02:20.193 --> 00:02:22.965
I mean, There's some historical
context there that I think is not
00:02:22.965 --> 00:02:24.605
part of the Baby's First Greek Myth.
00:02:24.725 --> 00:02:24.775
Yeah.
00:02:25.169 --> 00:02:25.779
Demetria: Mm-hmm.
00:02:26.209 --> 00:02:29.859
Yeah, I've definitely found that
particularly on the internet, and on
00:02:29.869 --> 00:02:34.619
the… especially the science fiction-ish
side of the internet, the part of
00:02:34.629 --> 00:02:38.609
the internet that is not necessarily
constantly discussing literary fiction,
00:02:38.609 --> 00:02:43.209
but sometimes a piece of literary fiction
sort of breaks free and floats across it.
00:02:43.649 --> 00:02:48.829
There's very much a stereotype that
Ancient Rome is for the bros and
00:02:48.839 --> 00:02:53.459
Ancient Greece is for the girlies,
and I don't know where that came from.
00:02:53.539 --> 00:02:57.319
Um, I, I mean, I can make some guesses
about where that came from based on sort
00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:02.726
of our, attitudes towards colonization
and imperialism and things like that.
00:03:02.996 --> 00:03:07.596
But it's very strange because, I
mean, objectively, would I have
00:03:07.596 --> 00:03:12.396
preferred as a woman to be born
in Rome or in Ancient Greece?
00:03:12.736 --> 00:03:14.196
I'm choosing Rome, baby.
00:03:14.512 --> 00:03:14.932
Magali: Yeah.
00:03:14.932 --> 00:03:14.972
I mean…
00:03:15.966 --> 00:03:16.046
Demetria: Greece sucked.
00:03:16.112 --> 00:03:19.502
Magali: Like ultimately it's not
a lot of winners across the board,
00:03:19.512 --> 00:03:22.802
but yeah, I think you have a, like a
statistically better chance in Rome of
00:03:22.812 --> 00:03:26.842
being born in a life where it doesn't
objectively suck 100% of the time.
00:03:27.684 --> 00:03:33.114
Demetria: I am sort of endlessly
fascinated by the way people relate to
00:03:33.124 --> 00:03:37.264
historical fiction in particular, and
the way their own politics of whatever
00:03:37.264 --> 00:03:39.604
era they are in gets reflected onto that.
00:03:40.024 --> 00:03:45.904
And we have this very weird thing going
on here where a very certain kind of
00:03:45.904 --> 00:03:51.630
political just, just sort of slant is
getting reflected onto… not even modern
00:03:51.630 --> 00:03:56.610
retellings of Greek stories, but modern
attempts to write historical fiction or
00:03:56.610 --> 00:03:59.280
even fantasy fiction with a Greek flavor.
00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:04.640
And that actually doesn't really
map too neatly on a culture that
00:04:04.640 --> 00:04:09.696
was intensely gendered, very
much a culture of, uh, slavery.
00:04:10.056 --> 00:04:14.006
Um, just the entire social structure,
political structure, everything
00:04:14.006 -->
Load full transcript
00:04:18.926
about it is not going to be a, a nice
one-to-one map onto modern leftism.
00:04:19.674 --> 00:04:20.274
Magali: Yeah.
00:04:20.514 --> 00:04:21.224
Shocking.
00:04:21.626 --> 00:04:22.236
Demetria: Mm-hmm.
00:04:22.246 --> 00:04:26.626
So when I, when I started "Song of
Achilles," I was actually really amped
00:04:26.646 --> 00:04:30.866
because it does start with some fairly
frank discussion of sexual assault.
00:04:31.536 --> 00:04:39.166
And quite frankly, I have been so annoyed
at how much that kind of sexual politics
00:04:39.166 --> 00:04:44.586
and behavior gets taken out of Greek
retellings, um, that I was, I was actually
00:04:44.596 --> 00:04:46.096
along for the ride in the beginning.
00:04:46.126 --> 00:04:52.736
I was very excited to see where this
was going and what a look at "The Iliad"
00:04:52.746 --> 00:04:57.056
from the perspective of someone who's
a modern writer but is looking at that
00:04:57.066 --> 00:04:59.686
era of history might look like today.
00:04:59.686 --> 00:05:03.486
So I was actually really amped about
this, and I actually texted you and some
00:05:03.486 --> 00:05:07.586
other friends of ours about how excited
I was about it, and one of our friends
00:05:07.586 --> 00:05:12.466
who had read this book previously went,
"Oh, wait a second before you finish
00:05:12.466 --> 00:05:15.846
that review there 'cause I don't think
you're gonna be as excited about this
00:05:15.846 --> 00:05:20.296
book when you get all the way through
it." And they were completely correct.
00:05:20.866 --> 00:05:21.786
I am pissed.
00:05:22.426 --> 00:05:28.536
Yeah, so the, the book is purporting to be
a retelling of "The Iliad," specifically
00:05:28.536 --> 00:05:33.176
the part of it that concerns Achilles
from the perspective of, and this is
00:05:33.176 --> 00:05:37.216
where I admit that I haven't been to
Greek school since age nine, Patroclus?
00:05:37.216 --> 00:05:39.416
Is, is that--
00:05:39.626 --> 00:05:40.016
Yeah.
00:05:40.192 --> 00:05:40.222
Magali: Patroclus?
00:05:40.222 --> 00:05:43.292
I mean I'm not one of my friends who
went to Oxford or Cambridge and actually
00:05:43.292 --> 00:05:46.212
knows how to read Greek, so we're
just gonna go with your pronunciation.
00:05:46.570 --> 00:05:46.590
Demetria: Yeah.
00:05:46.590 --> 00:05:51.550
So it, it is from the perspective
of his friend who in the story
00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:53.850
is a very good friend of his.
00:05:53.860 --> 00:05:58.690
It is the death of this character
that sort of precipitates Achilles'
00:05:58.700 --> 00:06:03.850
downfall as he commits an act that
is a terrible war crime by the
00:06:03.850 --> 00:06:06.013
standards of his time as an act of
00:06:06.370 --> 00:06:08.450
Magali: Spoilers for The Iliad!
00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:09.760
Oh my God!
00:06:10.570 --> 00:06:15.370
Demetria: So I was sort of expecting
as I was going through this book… so
00:06:15.530 --> 00:06:19.500
Patroclus' sort of thing, in the original
story, is that he's kinda hot-headed.
00:06:19.630 --> 00:06:22.210
Um, like he, he does do some
things really impulsively.
00:06:22.570 --> 00:06:26.280
His story starts when he kills
a friend during a game of
00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:27.650
dice or something like that.
00:06:27.700 --> 00:06:34.850
So it, starts with him doing that,
but in the book it is reframed as him
00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:41.800
being this sort of outsider boy who
is not very respected even by his own
00:06:41.890 --> 00:06:47.610
royal father's court, and he sort of
accidentally pushes a boy who's trying
00:06:47.610 --> 00:06:51.890
to steal his dice who is not really his
friend, and that boy falls over and dies.
00:06:52.320 --> 00:06:56.880
And so right off the bat, we are kind
of reframing what is going on we're not
00:06:56.880 --> 00:06:59.668
just reframing, but we're like changing
what is, uh, in the original text here…
00:06:59.708 --> 00:07:00.138
Magali: Yeah.
00:07:00.488 --> 00:07:02.738
I was like, "We're not
reframing, we're just rewriting."
00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:06.840
Demetria: Yeah, so we, we've rewritten
that story to be very different.
00:07:06.890 --> 00:07:11.430
And then it follows through him joining
Achilles' father's court and them
00:07:11.430 --> 00:07:16.030
becoming friends, and sort of everything
that goes along with the story there.
00:07:16.410 --> 00:07:19.660
And for the whole time, I kept sort
of waiting for the point of like,
00:07:19.790 --> 00:07:23.380
when is the part where Patroclus
learns how to fight, becomes the
00:07:23.380 --> 00:07:25.200
hothead he is later in the story?
00:07:25.200 --> 00:07:30.000
And I, I realized embarrassingly late in
the book, I guess I just was not picking
00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.700
up on what the author was putting down
here, but I realized eventually, um,
00:07:33.770 --> 00:07:35.880
at no point does he learn how to fight.
00:07:35.910 --> 00:07:36.182
Magali: But…
00:07:36.524 --> 00:07:39.254
Demetria: He remains a terrible
fighter up until the climactic
00:07:39.254 --> 00:07:43.214
scene where just suddenly he fights
very well for no particular reason.
00:07:43.638 --> 00:07:47.088
Magali: But… yeah, like Again, spoilers
for a many thousands of year old myth,
00:07:47.108 --> 00:07:50.428
but like that's kind of a whole plot
point that he can go out in Achilles'
00:07:50.428 --> 00:07:52.098
armor and fight as well as Achilles…
00:07:52.148 --> 00:07:55.908
Demetria: And we will get into bad at
fighting later 'cause I have sp-- I have
00:07:55.908 --> 00:07:58.588
some very specific bones to pick there.
00:07:58.618 --> 00:08:01.918
But yeah, the entire book, he
absolutely refuses to train in
00:08:01.918 --> 00:08:03.688
fighting in any way whatsoever.
00:08:04.028 --> 00:08:05.298
Magali: Ohhh, he's a Soft Boi.
00:08:05.298 --> 00:08:08.228
Demetria: At the at the end,
oh, he is such a Soft Boi.
00:08:08.228 --> 00:08:11.888
He likes medicine 'cause he's a Soft Boi.
00:08:12.058 --> 00:08:12.398
Magali: Okay.
00:08:12.408 --> 00:08:15.398
Demetria: He doesn't, he doesn't
wanna fight 'cause he's a Soft Boi.
00:08:15.408 --> 00:08:17.978
He killed that boy accidentally
'cause he's a Soft Boi.
00:08:18.368 --> 00:08:20.048
He would never do it on purpose.
00:08:20.733 --> 00:08:22.993
Magali: The woobification of Patroclus.
00:08:23.253 --> 00:08:23.833
Wow.
00:08:24.373 --> 00:08:24.773
Okay.
00:08:25.532 --> 00:08:30.902
Demetria: And because he has been
sort of rewritten as such a Soft Boi,
00:08:31.472 --> 00:08:37.332
then Achilles also has to sort of be
rewritten to be the kind of person who
00:08:37.332 --> 00:08:44.782
would hang out with this boy who is so
soft and so shy and so, sort of unmanly.
00:08:44.792 --> 00:08:50.752
And so Achilles is written, as I would
say, very reluctantly being dragged
00:08:50.752 --> 00:08:57.742
into things by fate or his mother
sort of forcibly kidnapping him at
00:08:57.742 --> 00:09:00.532
crucial points to move the story along.
00:09:00.962 --> 00:09:01.682
Um, but yeah.
00:09:01.832 --> 00:09:03.436
Magali: I mean it is
on brand for her, but.
00:09:04.492 --> 00:09:07.122
Demetria: Yeah, Achilles sort of
gets, gets dragged through the story
00:09:07.122 --> 00:09:11.762
without making a lot of deliberate
decisions, which is a bit weird.
00:09:11.792 --> 00:09:15.582
So you have your sort of point-of-view
character, your protagonist, who
00:09:15.582 --> 00:09:20.252
is very passive, and then Achilles
also ends up being very passive.
00:09:20.662 --> 00:09:24.812
And so the story just kind of
happens at them and runs along the
00:09:24.812 --> 00:09:28.252
track of the way that you already
know the "Iliad" has to run.
00:09:28.702 --> 00:09:32.262
But they, they do very
little to progress the story.
00:09:34.106 --> 00:09:34.486
Magali: Great.
00:09:34.866 --> 00:09:35.376
Cool.
00:09:35.586 --> 00:09:42.006
So the two people who cause a large chunk
of the events at the last days of Troy
00:09:42.086 --> 00:09:46.656
actually don't wanna do anything, and
they hate fighting, and they don't wanna
00:09:46.666 --> 00:09:48.016
be… no, Achilles wants to be there.
00:09:48.086 --> 00:09:49.356
His mom doesn't want him to be there.
00:09:50.060 --> 00:09:54.190
Demetria: Yeah, Achilles, Achilles
in the book does decide to be there.
00:09:54.220 --> 00:09:57.500
Um, basically, Achilles is given the
choice of "do you wanna sort of fade
00:09:57.500 --> 00:10:01.817
into obscurity or do you wanna be the
best there ever was but die very young?"
00:10:01.817 --> 00:10:03.937
And he chooses to die very young.
00:10:04.347 --> 00:10:09.027
So that, that part of the story is, he
at least does make some kind of choice.
00:10:09.067 --> 00:10:18.427
But a lot of the more dramatic things that
happen in "The Iliad" are rewritten in a
00:10:18.427 --> 00:10:25.067
way that sort of absolves both Patroclus
and Achilles of responsibility, or any
00:10:25.067 --> 00:10:27.827
sort of negative behavior whatsoever.
00:10:27.827 --> 00:10:31.147
For instance, this is the part that my
friend warned me about, that when when you
00:10:31.147 --> 00:10:33.060
get to this part, you will be pissed off.
00:10:33.736 --> 00:10:36.816
Magali: I was about to say, cause, like,
there's kind a pretty key moment that
00:10:36.866 --> 00:10:41.406
is, not great from a modern standpoint,
but it kicks off a lot of stuff…
00:10:41.898 --> 00:10:47.368
Demetria: There is a major sort of
inciting of a lot of action incident
00:10:47.438 --> 00:10:54.848
where Achilles and, uh, Agamemnon
are arguing about a slave girl
00:10:54.858 --> 00:11:00.258
that Achilles originally claims
and then Agamemnon claims from him.
00:11:00.658 --> 00:11:07.358
And that is retold in this version of
the story of Achilles was not actually
00:11:07.358 --> 00:11:09.398
having sex with this slave girl.
00:11:09.688 --> 00:11:14.988
Patroclus just felt so sorry for
this poor girl who'd been captured
00:11:15.278 --> 00:11:20.078
that he actually said Achilles should
basically use her as his beard,
00:11:20.458 --> 00:11:23.508
while actually they're just besties!
00:11:23.608 --> 00:11:26.108
And Patroclus is teaching
her how to read Greek.
00:11:26.148 --> 00:11:27.828
Isn't that so nice?
00:11:28.058 --> 00:11:31.868
Magali: So first of all, like, are we
even writing in Greek at this point?
00:11:31.878 --> 00:11:33.338
Never mind, that's not even the point.
00:11:34.338 --> 00:11:36.668
There's… I have so many questions,
that's not even the right one.
00:11:37.048 --> 00:11:39.790
So she's in cahoots with them.
00:11:40.222 --> 00:11:44.248
She's a full person with agency
and is not a thing and…
00:11:44.248 --> 00:11:47.204
Demetria: Yeah, she's, she's just
their friend because they're Soft Bois.
00:11:47.244 --> 00:11:50.254
They kiss in front of her, which is
how she knows they can be trusted.
00:11:50.778 --> 00:11:51.678
Magali: Okay.
00:11:51.788 --> 00:11:52.658
So here's the thing.
00:11:52.688 --> 00:11:56.048
I mean, I will say, we love a
fully realized female character.
00:11:56.518 --> 00:11:58.278
Uh, we don't get that many of those.
00:11:58.318 --> 00:12:01.408
I don't know that this is that, but,
you know, I'm, I'm like, I, I want
00:12:01.408 --> 00:12:04.628
to be on her side for this choice,
but it's such a, it's such a choice.
00:12:05.514 --> 00:12:05.804
Demetria: Yeah.
00:12:05.864 --> 00:12:10.224
And, and then again, as I was reading
this story and I get to this scene and
00:12:10.224 --> 00:12:14.894
I'm like, okay, all the parts before they
go to war, Soft Boi, Soft Boi, Soft Bois.
00:12:15.264 --> 00:12:20.444
Surely the war, and Achilles' choice
to take this slave girl and not
00:12:20.444 --> 00:12:25.124
have Patroclus as his only lover
anymore is going to do something
00:12:25.164 --> 00:12:26.624
interesting to that relationship.
00:12:26.624 --> 00:12:28.114
It's gonna introduce some tension.
00:12:28.926 --> 00:12:32.934
It's going to cause Patroclus, the
Soft
Boi, to have to accept the fact
00:12:32.974 --> 00:12:37.634
that his friend is not operating sort
of from the same set of assumptions
00:12:37.634 --> 00:12:39.354
about their relationship that he is.
00:12:39.534 --> 00:12:44.251
Something, some kind of tension, a
little bit of grit that oyster to
00:12:44.258 --> 00:12:45.694
produce some kind of pearl here.
00:12:45.694 --> 00:12:50.034
But no, absolutely no tension
introduced by that choice whatsoever.
00:12:50.074 --> 00:12:53.194
The choice has just been
rewritten to absolve Achilles.
00:12:53.644 --> 00:12:54.234
Magali: Okay.
00:12:54.634 --> 00:12:55.414
I hate that.
00:12:55.814 --> 00:12:57.364
Uh, what, what else you got?
00:12:58.168 --> 00:13:03.088
Demetria: Uh, so yeah, that, that was sort
of, um… I thought when I picked this
00:13:03.088 --> 00:13:08.028
book up that I was reading an interesting
reframing of how does a modern storyteller
00:13:08.038 --> 00:13:13.028
grapple with some of the ethical
conundrums in ancient Greek mythology?
00:13:13.158 --> 00:13:16.738
How does a modern writer deal with
the fact that you're trying to
00:13:16.738 --> 00:13:20.658
make people sympathetic who do very
unsympathetic things in the story?
00:13:20.668 --> 00:13:24.428
How do you write from a worldview that
might feel that alien to modern readers?
00:13:24.878 --> 00:13:28.384
And unfortunately, the answer that
this book comes up with is you don't.
00:13:28.414 --> 00:13:32.734
You just rewrite the story to, uh, absolve
the people that you wanted to absolve.
00:13:32.744 --> 00:13:33.514
So-
00:13:33.628 --> 00:13:36.528
Magali: So it's giving all the
Persephone and Hades adaptations that
00:13:36.538 --> 00:13:38.388
you've mentioned you love so much.
00:13:39.388 --> 00:13:40.318
Demetria: Oh my God.
00:13:40.718 --> 00:13:41.218
Oh my God.
00:13:41.218 --> 00:13:45.508
Yeah, it is definitely doing the thing
that really does bother me with this kind
00:13:45.508 --> 00:13:53.708
of mythology retelling, where there's
absolutely no desire to work with and
00:13:53.708 --> 00:14:00.098
work within an ancient and unfamiliar
worldview in order to say what is actually
00:14:00.098 --> 00:14:01.538
interesting about these characters.
00:14:01.968 --> 00:14:06.378
It's very weird because so many
ancient Greek stories are specifically
00:14:06.378 --> 00:14:12.468
examples of people making bad choices
due to character flaws and then being
00:14:12.468 --> 00:14:14.168
punished for having the character flaw.
00:14:14.168 --> 00:14:19.148
So when you remove the character flaw
from the characters, you just removed
00:14:19.178 --> 00:14:23.538
the core of the story and it, it sort
of falls apart into mush, I feel like.
00:14:23.538 --> 00:14:26.518
I-- The, the thing that makes the
story interesting is just gone.
00:14:27.070 --> 00:14:30.140
Magali: I know this book is a bit older,
but I do think it's maybe reflective
00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:37.980
of this real sort of, um, shying away
from conflict or potentially being
00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:41.140
perceived as "normalizing" icky things.
00:14:41.560 --> 00:14:44.240
, 'Cause like, why tackle the
subject matter if you're not
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:45.570
interested in the subject matter?
00:14:45.610 --> 00:14:47.370
That just kind of continues to be my…
00:14:48.374 --> 00:14:49.084
Demetria: Oh my God.
00:14:49.104 --> 00:14:52.704
On the topic of this author not being
interested in the subject matter, I know
00:14:52.704 --> 00:14:56.584
that she does have some kind of background
in Greek language or something like that.
00:14:56.974 --> 00:15:04.254
But I got very annoyed, especially towards
the sort of later… act three of the
00:15:04.254 --> 00:15:09.428
book is sort of the "actually at war"
part, and there are some battle scenes
00:15:09.428 --> 00:15:12.988
that make it very clear that the author
doesn't really care that much about the
00:15:12.988 --> 00:15:18.588
mechanics of how battle works, and that
is fine in a mythological retelling.
00:15:18.688 --> 00:15:21.268
I will go along for
that ride if I have to.
00:15:21.280 --> 00:15:22.608
It's not preference.
00:15:22.649 --> 00:15:27.878
I do have a very specific brain disease
that I share with my husband, where we
00:15:27.878 --> 00:15:33.238
are constantly yelling about infantry
formations every time we we watch any kind
00:15:33.238 --> 00:15:38.368
of movie that purports to be showing the
story of any historical battle whatsoever.
00:15:38.388 --> 00:15:41.338
Um, we were the only people in
the theater when we saw Ridley
00:15:41.338 --> 00:15:44.538
Scott's "Napoleon," and we heckled.
00:15:45.328 --> 00:15:48.848
There was… we have a, we have a
lot to say about that particular
00:15:48.848 --> 00:15:50.518
depiction of the Battle of Austerlitz.
00:15:50.528 --> 00:15:54.338
So, like, I am aware, I am aware that
not everyone shares my particular
00:15:54.338 --> 00:15:56.108
brain disease in this regard.
00:15:56.508 --> 00:16:02.028
But, and this is a big but, um,
there are some errors in this book
00:16:02.048 --> 00:16:08.968
that make it clear that the author
is so unfamiliar with just the way a
00:16:08.968 --> 00:16:11.768
Greek army works and even what it is?
00:16:11.798 --> 00:16:16.218
Um, in particular, the author
does repeatedly make the mistake
00:16:16.228 --> 00:16:20.888
of thinking that a "phalanx" is
a troop unit and not a formation.
00:16:21.378 --> 00:16:26.498
So there are parts where a
phalanx is described as "guarding
00:16:26.508 --> 00:16:27.858
the agora," and it's like
00:16:27.858 --> 00:16:28.048
Magali: No.
00:16:29.008 --> 00:16:31.258
Demetria: Uh, excuse me?
00:16:31.258 --> 00:16:35.814
I, I was gonna go to the grocery store,
but a spear wall was in front of me?
00:16:35.814 --> 00:16:37.214
Is that you're trying to say?
00:16:37.694 --> 00:16:42.274
I what means is that whatever unit
of troops she thinks is the number
00:16:42.274 --> 00:16:46.794
of people who should be in a
phalanx
happened to be guarding the agora.
00:16:46.854 --> 00:16:51.484
But like, very clearly she does not
know on a very fundamental level how
00:16:51.504 --> 00:16:53.834
battles work in the ancient world.
00:16:53.844 --> 00:16:58.444
And like, the phalanx was post-Bronze
Age, but I'm gonna let that go.
00:16:58.654 --> 00:17:03.074
But if phalanxes exist in your universe,
why is nobody fighting in them?
00:17:03.104 --> 00:17:10.234
Why is Patroclus stumbling around alone
on a battlefield just confused, wandering
00:17:10.234 --> 00:17:14.384
about the place when he should…
get that boy into fucking formation.
00:17:14.564 --> 00:17:17.064
Like, if these exist, why
is he not fighting in one?
00:17:18.410 --> 00:17:22.420
This is sort of the eternal problem with
historical fiction and like, oh my God,
00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:26.000
I could go on a tear for this, but the
depth at which you have to understand a
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:31.110
historical period in order to write from
it is very different from the depth of
00:17:31.130 --> 00:17:35.260
understanding that your editor is likely
to be able to have in order to edit you.
00:17:35.270 --> 00:17:37.690
Like, your, your editor
is not your peer reviewer.
00:17:38.050 --> 00:17:41.550
And even the way an academic might
be trained to think about history
00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:46.740
is not necessarily going to be good
for catching the kind of factual
00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:50.820
errors that a historical fiction
writer has to be on the lookout for.
00:17:50.830 --> 00:17:54.530
Because like you can spend a very,
very long time studying a period in
00:17:54.530 --> 00:17:59.040
depth on sort of the thematic level
that one is expected to do in academia
00:17:59.360 --> 00:18:04.440
without knowing things like "how might
window glass be made in this period?"
00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:09.860
There are things that are sort of
shunted off into this siloed realm.
00:18:09.860 --> 00:18:12.880
And I know, I know this because
my mother was an archeologist.
00:18:12.910 --> 00:18:17.920
Like an archeologist would be able to
catch certain things instantly that
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.570
someone who is a language scholar
specifically is not going able to catch.
00:18:22.034 --> 00:18:22.254
Magali: Yeah.
00:18:22.254 --> 00:18:24.944
Well, and also I feel like… at
least with archeology sometimes too,
00:18:24.944 --> 00:18:28.064
it's like, well, if it's outside
my 200 years, like, I don't know.
00:18:29.112 --> 00:18:29.472
Demetria: Yeah.
00:18:29.472 --> 00:18:29.702
Yeah.
00:18:29.702 --> 00:18:32.572
The deeper you go into academia,
I think the m- the more people
00:18:32.582 --> 00:18:34.692
understand how little they know.
00:18:34.742 --> 00:18:38.302
Um, and yeah, this, this is just a
perpetually weird thing about historical
00:18:38.302 --> 00:18:40.212
fiction, and I love historical fiction.
00:18:40.212 --> 00:18:41.302
I read a lot of it.
00:18:41.722 --> 00:18:45.782
Um, but an editor is actually
not your best chance of catching
00:18:45.782 --> 00:18:47.112
any errors you might make.
00:18:47.162 --> 00:18:52.812
And when you're making errors as egregious
as some of the scenes involving discussion
00:18:52.812 --> 00:18:58.052
of the military have, um, I do wonder
why you wanted to write a war story.
00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:01.250
Magali: I think Circe
came after this, right?
00:19:01.250 --> 00:19:03.820
I think Song of Achilles was
maybe her first Greek one?
00:19:04.080 --> 00:19:05.360
Demetria: I believe so, yeah.
00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:08.940
'Cause she does, she did write something
also from the perspective of Circe,
00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:13.310
and, and I must say, I do think Odysseus
was the most interesting character in
00:19:13.310 --> 00:19:17.610
this entire book for me because he was
allowed to be a character who was a bit
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:23.680
outside, while still fitting the idea
of what a sort of Greek hero should be.
00:19:23.952 --> 00:19:24.422
Magali: Mm-hmm.
00:19:24.800 --> 00:19:27.772
Demetria: He's also socially a
little bit out of step with some
00:19:27.772 --> 00:19:30.372
of the other characters in a way
that makes him very intriguing.
00:19:30.812 --> 00:19:34.662
And he is still allowed to have
flaws because he is not being
00:19:34.702 --> 00:19:38.622
depicted as the Soft Boi, which
I mean, I am an Odysseus stan.
00:19:38.632 --> 00:19:38.672
Magali: Oh, same.
00:19:38.682 --> 00:19:41.892
Demetria: I love good retelling of "The
Odyssey," like any retelling of "The
00:19:41.892 --> 00:19:46.692
Odyssey." Love it, love it, and I think
part of that is because Odysseus is
00:19:46.692 --> 00:19:50.962
a very flawed character who actually
does He, he gets a win in the end.
00:19:51.192 --> 00:19:51.572
Magali: Yeah.
00:19:51.652 --> 00:19:54.626
But I, I just, part of me wonders
if like Circe's the book she wanted
00:19:54.626 --> 00:19:58.496
to write and they made her write
Song of Achilles first, or Song of
00:19:58.496 --> 00:20:01.526
Achilles was responding to the fact
that Captive Prince was very popular.
00:20:01.556 --> 00:20:03.406
Again, that's like a
whole other episode, but
00:20:03.950 --> 00:20:06.860
Demetria: I think, I think So-
"Song of Achilles" came out of
00:20:06.860 --> 00:20:09.260
something a bit different than
"Captive Prince" in my knowledge.
00:20:09.290 --> 00:20:11.840
Like they, I think they got a
little bit conflated by fandom,
00:20:11.840 --> 00:20:16.230
but I think this was much more of
a, a play for the sort of lit fic.
00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:21.410
Um, 'cause yeah, my, my friends
who were recommending, um, Madeline
00:20:21.410 --> 00:20:25.080
Miller to me were very different than
my friends recommending C.S. Pacat.
00:20:25.520 --> 00:20:29.630
I don't think those, those circles might
have sort of superficially, aesthetically
00:20:29.630 --> 00:20:33.410
overlapped online, but I don't think
in the original sort of publishing
00:20:33.420 -->
00:20:35.260
world they were overlapping that much.
00:20:35.516 --> 00:20:35.796
Magali: Okay, yeah.
00:20:35.836 --> 00:20:39.023
'Cause I mostly, and again, totally
a separate topic, but I seem to
00:20:39.023 --> 00:20:42.653
remember people recommending those
two things and me thinking, "Those
00:20:42.663 --> 00:20:45.333
don't seem like the same thing,"
but I guess on the surface they are.
00:20:45.333 --> 00:20:47.443
So I was wondering if that was
coming from the publishing industry
00:20:47.443 --> 00:20:48.993
or from inside the fandom house.
00:20:49.063 --> 00:20:50.553
That sounds like maybe more the latter.
00:20:51.001 --> 00:20:51.481
Demetria: Yeah.
00:20:51.481 --> 00:20:55.611
Yeah, I think I was, for various reasons,
a little bit out of fandom then, but I'm
00:20:55.621 --> 00:20:57.441
pretty sure that was coming from fandom.
00:20:57.851 --> 00:21:00.731
Um, yeah, I have a lot of things
that I will reserve for our "Captive
00:21:00.731 --> 00:21:06.161
Prince" discussion to say about
sort of being Greek diaspora and
00:21:06.161 --> 00:21:10.641
watching fandom argue about what
Greek identity is and what a Greek
00:21:10.641 --> 00:21:12.691
person should look like in their mind.
00:21:13.021 --> 00:21:15.351
Magali: And whether Damen is
brown, that was my favorite.
00:21:15.351 --> 00:21:15.981
Demetria: Oh my God.
00:21:16.071 --> 00:21:18.331
Yeah, I, I have a lot to say
about that, so I'll reserve it
00:21:18.336 --> 00:21:20.243
for that part of discussion.
00:21:20.327 --> 00:21:20.861
Uh, but yeah,
00:21:20.881 --> 00:21:22.295
Magali: That's like a
whole other 45 minutes.
00:21:23.081 --> 00:21:27.811
Demetria: I do know that I'm like several
millennia late to the "who is allowed to
00:21:27.811 --> 00:21:30.181
write stories about Greece?" discussion.
00:21:30.181 --> 00:21:34.031
Like we've agreed that this is sort
of spiritually public domain here.
00:21:34.721 --> 00:21:37.741
But yeah, it does sort of get
under my skin in a weird way when
00:21:37.741 --> 00:21:40.641
I see a story like this with sort
of all of its teeth taken out.
00:21:40.671 --> 00:21:41.691
Like, what are we doing here?
00:21:41.691 --> 00:21:44.471
Why are we try-- Like, why are
we telling this story if we
00:21:44.471 --> 00:21:45.471
don't wanna tell the story?
00:21:45.979 --> 00:21:46.249
Magali: Yeah.
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.139
That's what's baffling to me
about everything that you've said.
00:21:48.149 --> 00:21:51.649
Um, So are there any other juicy
bits that you had beef with
00:21:51.649 --> 00:21:52.469
that you wanna tell me about?
00:21:53.405 --> 00:21:53.595
Demetria: Ooh.
00:21:53.685 --> 00:21:58.502
Um, it doesn't in a particularly
interesting way handle Greek
00:21:58.522 --> 00:22:02.162
understandings of what sexuality
were and how they might be different
00:22:02.162 --> 00:22:03.252
than our modern understanding.
00:22:03.252 --> 00:22:04.762
But I'll, I'll let that slide.
00:22:04.772 --> 00:22:08.452
If I start
picking that apart, i've
got a lot of books to criticize in
00:22:08.452 --> 00:22:10.102
their handling of that before this one.
00:22:10.542 --> 00:22:16.662
Um, yeah, I would say ongoing, my
annoyance at some of the way discussions
00:22:16.672 --> 00:22:20.312
of military history are handled,
and it's not just the phalanx one.
00:22:20.312 --> 00:22:22.682
That was just sort of the most
distinctively like, "Oh, you
00:22:22.682 --> 00:22:24.842
do not know what a phalanx is."
00:22:24.872 --> 00:22:25.272
Magali: That's egregious
00:22:26.472 --> 00:22:29.802
Demetria: Um, there's another one
where I think they build a like 10-mile
00:22:29.802 --> 00:22:35.512
long palisade, and I was like, "Girl,
that is a long palisade." That is a…
00:22:35.512 --> 00:22:39.882
I don't know why you need a public
infrastructure work of that magnitude.
00:22:40.086 --> 00:22:44.738
Yeah Things like that that are
sort of like, once the story starts
00:22:44.848 --> 00:22:47.868
digging into the specifics of how
this world works, it's sort of
00:22:47.868 --> 00:22:49.668
like, are, are we in the Bronze Age?
00:22:49.668 --> 00:22:50.748
Are we in the Classical era?
00:22:50.758 --> 00:22:56.325
Are, like Are we taking war seriously
enough to care about whether the
00:22:56.325 --> 00:22:58.065
military formations make any sense?
00:22:58.075 --> 00:22:58.885
Are we not?
00:22:59.175 --> 00:23:01.805
Give me the foundation that I'm
supposed to be working with here,
00:23:01.815 --> 00:23:05.945
'cause like right now my only conclusion
is that you were kinda half-assing
00:23:05.945 --> 00:23:07.325
it and hoping nobody would notice.
00:23:07.355 --> 00:23:11.615
Which I guess most people who do
not have my specific brain disease
00:23:11.745 --> 00:23:15.465
didn't notice, and this is a
very critically acclaimed book.
00:23:15.797 --> 00:23:16.357
Magali: Yeah.
00:23:16.427 --> 00:23:20.257
I mean, I wonder too, i'm curious if
you have any others that you wanna plug
00:23:20.257 --> 00:23:22.067
instead of "Song of Achilles," I guess?
00:23:22.067 --> 00:23:22.527
Demetria: Oh.
00:23:22.817 --> 00:23:26.135
This is the thing is I have specifically
stayed away from a lot of Greek
00:23:26.135 --> 00:23:30.280
myth retellings because of getting
kind of frustrated with the era of
00:23:30.310 --> 00:23:33.870
publishing that we're in and the kinds
of stories that people want to tell.
00:23:34.258 --> 00:23:36.678
So it's… it's been a while
since I read something that I felt
00:23:36.678 --> 00:23:38.648
like was really hitting with me.
00:23:39.012 --> 00:23:42.482
So yeah, I thought that I would sort
of dive back into it and see what
00:23:42.482 --> 00:23:46.072
I find and whether I liked it, and
unfortunately my answer was no, I
00:23:46.092 --> 00:23:47.762
absolutely did not like this book.
00:23:48.592 --> 00:23:48.992
Magali: Yeah
00:23:49.352 --> 00:23:49.702
Demetria: Yeah.
00:23:49.800 --> 00:23:56.602
There are retellings of like, I'm
thinking of like
when did a retelling
00:23:56.602 --> 00:23:59.309
of these stories really work for me?
00:23:59.789 --> 00:24:05.179
I think what I actually prefer is
when someone takes the sort of story
00:24:05.189 --> 00:24:08.126
beats and the characters and puts them
in a new setting and then explores
00:24:08.582 --> 00:24:09.892
how they work in the new setting.
00:24:09.932 --> 00:24:14.762
Like I absolutely love, probably my
favorite retelling of "The Odyssey" is
00:24:14.762 --> 00:24:19.359
"O Brother, Where Art Thou?" because
it takes those characters with all
00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.332
their flaws, with all their foibles,
and it puts them in a very different
00:24:23.332 --> 00:24:28.292
environment, but then it explores the
issues that they face in that environment.
00:24:29.212 --> 00:24:31.582
And I adore that story.
00:24:32.052 --> 00:24:33.432
That is such a good movie.
00:24:33.662 --> 00:24:39.002
Magali: Also, Odysseus is such a good guy
to put in a situation, like any situation.
00:24:39.072 --> 00:24:40.582
I wanna see that man in it, marinating.
00:24:41.252 --> 00:24:44.712
Demetria: That, that-- he is, yeah, he is
just an absolutely delightful character
00:24:44.712 --> 00:24:48.092
to drop into situations 'cause you, you
don't really need to file his edges off.
00:24:48.132 --> 00:24:53.042
Like, he can continue to be the
character in a situation, and all
00:24:53.042 --> 00:24:56.852
of the Odyssey is just him just
sort of hopping between situations.
00:24:57.459 --> 00:25:00.929
Like you can tell a really compelling
story without ruining the thing
00:25:00.929 --> 00:25:02.429
that makes the character compelling.
00:25:02.869 --> 00:25:06.679
I am really interested to see when
we do our "Captive Prince" episode…
00:25:06.749 --> 00:25:11.969
that one, instead of trying to tell
a story set in Greece, um, it takes
00:25:11.979 --> 00:25:13.729
some, it takes some Greek flavor
00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:14.149
Magali: Yeah.
00:25:14.149 --> 00:25:15.029
Demetria: into its fantasy world.
00:25:15.029 --> 00:25:15.489
Magali: It's all window-dressing.
00:25:16.719 --> 00:25:18.889
Demetria: It does something,
really fun and interesting with it.
00:25:18.979 --> 00:25:23.219
If you want to use this historical
period as window dressing, like go
00:25:23.219 --> 00:25:27.589
ahead, write the story you actually
want to write instead of forcing a
00:25:27.589 --> 00:25:32.109
story that is known for not being
the thing you want to write into a
00:25:32.109 --> 00:25:33.839
different shape, is what I would say.
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.529
Magali: That is super valid and I
think just good advice to anyone
00:25:37.539 --> 00:25:40.089
thinking about telling a story is if
you don't really wanna tell the story,
00:25:40.089 --> 00:25:41.309
maybe just write a different one.
00:25:41.475 --> 00:25:44.125
Is there anything else that you
kinda wanna… Is there, like, a note
00:25:44.135 --> 00:25:48.025
you wanna leave on, or a discussion
question that you want me to ask you?
00:25:48.374 --> 00:25:50.604
Demetria: Ooh, that's a,
that's a great question.
00:25:50.624 --> 00:25:56.864
And yeah, due to my, um, brain disease,
I think, you could ask me which, which
00:25:56.864 --> 00:26:01.584
books I prefer that have much more
detailed discussion of infantry tactics.
00:26:02.090 --> 00:26:02.670
Magali: Absolutely.
00:26:02.670 --> 00:26:06.560
So Demetria, tell me more about
books you do recommend that totally
00:26:06.560 --> 00:26:07.897
get the infantry tactics right!
00:26:08.738 --> 00:26:11.248
Demetria: I'm actually gonna
rec a local author here.
00:26:11.358 --> 00:26:14.838
I love "The Shadow
Campaigns" by Django Wexler.
00:26:15.298 --> 00:26:19.988
If you're a freak like me and you, you
would love to have a chapter of people
00:26:19.998 --> 00:26:25.378
drilling in how to properly form infantry
squares, mm, that's, that's the one.
00:26:25.718 --> 00:26:27.158
Go read "The Shadow Campaigns."
00:26:27.814 --> 00:26:28.774
Magali: Incredible.
00:26:29.164 --> 00:26:31.404
Um, well, I guess- I think
we can leave it there.
00:26:31.424 --> 00:26:35.344
Honestly, like how can you improve
on perfectly drilling infantry
00:26:35.344 --> 00:26:37.284
units in your historical fiction?
00:26:37.284 --> 00:26:40.234
I mean, that seems like it's the
apex of perfection, so we should just
00:26:40.374 --> 00:26:42.114
declare book-rupcy on everything else.
00:26:43.281 --> 00:26:46.571
Bookruptcy is a podcast by
Demetria Spinrad and Magali Ferare.
00:26:47.451 --> 00:26:49.921
Demetria: We hope that we've inspired
you to read something weirder,
00:26:49.991 --> 00:26:52.754
sillier… at the very least, we hope
that you're reading something that
00:26:52.764 --> 00:26:54.174
you would hesitate to tweet about.
00:26:54.741 --> 00:26:57.200
Magali: While we prefer not to
be perceived, if you do wanna
00:26:57.210 --> 00:27:00.880
get in touch, we can be reached
at contact@bookrupcypod.com.
00:27:01.586 --> 00:27:05.096
Demetria: But for today, we are closing
this chapter and declaring bookruptcy.